You Can Always Leave if You Don’t Like It Here?
Posted by USWeapon on January 3, 2009
I have wanted to make this post for a while now and I figured tonight would be the time I take to tackle it. Many times in these conversations, I have made the point to different folks that being in America is a choice. The response is usually hostile and often taken as I am telling them to leave the country. So I wanted to take a moment to discuss this rationally and without any emotion and without directing it at anyone so that no one gets their feelings hurt thinking I don’t like them…
So here is my take on things. There are some people that simply hate our government. I get that. I am not thrilled with government either. And let’s face it, if I were this would be a rather mundane blog. But there are folks who absolutely think it is good for nothing. I hear things like there is not one single thing that the government does that is good. I hear statements such as “I didn’t sign the Constitution. It is a worthless piece of paper and doesn’t give the government the right to do anything for me or to me”.
Other times when I suggest the heading of this post, I get cliche answers that try to trivialize my point such as “oh so if someone steals my couch I should abandon my house”. All of these things baffle me because I am not saying these things at all. I am not trying to kick someone out of the country. But I do believe that in a world like this one, it is a shame that people have so much horrible to say about the country that offers the best opportunity to live free.
Is our country ideal? Unfortunately I have to answer no on this one. But is there a better alternative? Again I have to answer no. I understand that the government has gotten out of control. I understand that there are many examples of individual rights being taken away or trampled on. I understand there is corruption in government. I understand that America doesn’t offer the complete individual freedom that some people crave.
But I believe we are closer to ideal than any other country out there. Let’s start with this blog. In many other countries I would not be able to be critical of the government as I am here. In many other countries I would be locked up or even killed for simply speaking out against the government. I have more freedom in America than most people in the world have. Freedom to practice the religion that I choose, regardless of what it may be. Freedom to say the government sucks if I want to. Freedom to leave the country should I choose to, which some countries don’t offer.
I didn’t sign the Constitution either. But I recognize it as a great attempt to create the best order out of mass confusion possible. And while some revisions may be necessary, I find it amazing that a document was created that gave rules to our government 250 years ago that is largely still relevant today.
So whenever I speak to people that seem to absolutely hate our government and would prefer it didn’t exist at all, I am always baffled. Because I don’t know that I believe that a country without any rules would work. I simply don’t believe that a United States of America without a government can provide the opportunities that we have in this country.
So I make the statement to people that it is a choice to live here. Because ultimately it is just that, a choice. One of the beautiful things in the USA is we are free to leave if we want to. If we believe that the US government is the worst on the planet, we can move to France or Costa Rica or Ghana or Canada or China or wherever we choose. We have the free will to choose to live in America with an American government or choose to leave America and live in a country that more fits what we think is right and fair.
I have that choice and I choose to stay. I do so because I think I have a better opportunity for a god life here than I would somewhere else. I choose to stay because I do think I am more free in America than I would be in other places (and I have thus far visited 52 other examples).
But in choosing to stay here I am making the statement that I think it is better here than other places. I am choosing to stay and do my best to change what I don’t like within the framework of the Constitution that serves as a blueprint for our government. By staying I am choosing to be a part of what America is, the good and the bad.
So when I say that you are free to leave, it isn’t a threat. It is simply a reality. If you hate it here as much as some people seem to, you have the individual freedom to choose to leave. However, if you choose to stay, then you are choosing to join a cast of over 300 million, and that means that you are choosing to pay taxes to our government for what they provide and you are choosing to abide by the will of the majority of the people. That is what being in America means. You are free to work to amend the system as it is in order to make it a better situation than it currently is, but you are also free to find a better situation elsewhere.
I am not mad at any of those who hate our government, I merely don’t understand why you choose to stay in what you feel is the worst country on earth government-wise. You don’t have to. You can move to Sweden if you think it is better there. You can go anywhere. But you are not.
And you aren’t going to. And you know why? Because deep down in those parts of you that you can never admit to, you know that there isn’t a better gig for you. You know that despite all of its flaws, America is still the only place where you have the opportunity to do what you do. You aren’t going to leave because in the end you know that many of the things that you espouse so fervently, even you know they cannot work.
And in that way I think that many of those who hate our government so much are hypocrites. You hate the very thing that on this planet gives you the right to hate them. I understand the idea of personal freedom and that you want to reach for as much of it as possible. I also understand that despite your rantings to the contrary, you know that you have it better here than you would elsewhere. Because if that weren’t true, you would have left already.
So please allow me to be clear. I don’t want to kick any of you out. You are more than welcome to stay. My statement that you are free to leave isn’t meant as a threat or an easy way out of any argument. I am not trying to insult you in some way. I am merely stating the obvious fact. And regardless of what cliche you throw at me next, that fact will remain and other readers will understand that it is merely a smokescreen meant to hide the reality:
And that reality is that no matter how much you complain about the US government or complain that individual freedom doesn’t exist here, it rings hollow. Because the rest of us can see through that smokescreen and we understand one fact that cannot be ignored… you are still here. You don’t have a better option. If you did, you would have taken it.
kentmcmanigal said
I never said the US government is the worst on earth; all governments are evil, but this one may not be as bad as most. Yet. I intend to keep pointing out that any and all governments are bad in order to try to keep this “local” one from getting to the point where it is worse than most.
That doesn’t mean I am content to excuse it now. In fact, as this is the government that tries to claim ownership of my life, it harms me more than any other government on earth right now. I am under much more danger from the US than I will ever be from Osama.
I will oppose any such attempt to rule me with everything I’ve got, no matter who the attack comes from. The reality is any government I lived around would do the same thing, as far as trying to claim me as state property, and I would keep opposing that government. I might be killed for my opposition. That could happen here, too.
kentmcmanigal said
“You hate the very thing that on this planet gives you the right to hate them.”
No government “gives” me any rights. My rights would exist here, in China, or on Mars. Government may respect my rights or it may violate my rights, but it doesn’t whittle one sliver off of the rights that exist in me by its opposition.
No one would deny the contention that standing in sewage is better than standing in molten lead, but it is still not an optimal situation and you should not be content. One is simply more immediately fatal.
I love “America” (meaning my family, friends, neighbors, the natural resouces, the natural features, and native wildlife) way too much to abandon my home to the bad guys by moving somewhere else which would likely be no better. In my mind, the US government is an occupying force which has taken over “America” and I really don’t appreciate it too much.
kentmcmanigal said
“Because I don’t know that I believe that a country without any rules would work.”
I have never advocated a society (what you call a “country”) without rules, but instead without Rulers. There is a huge difference.
kentmcmanigal said
I think you make the mistake of equating “The US” with “America”. They are completely separate entities.
Pretending for a moment that a contract written and signed by long-dead people applies to me: It wasn’t me or you who decided the Constitution was worthless; it was those who run the US. If a contract is ignored by one side, is the other side still required to keep their end of the bargain?
You say I “made a choice” to live where the US government tries to claim me. No, I didn’t. I was simply born here. Were the slaves in 18th century Virginia “choosing” to live on the plantations if they were born there? The entire world is now a plantation, but some masters are more generous than others. That doesn’t make them right.
You can claim I have a choice to buy a Rolls-Royce too. But the economic reality is that I can’t afford one. I also can’t afford to go anywhere that has a “kinder master” even if there were one. An imaginary choice is not a choice.
USWeapon said
Some fair points Kent. And I respect that you have answered this post in the way that you have. My intention is to merely help everyone understand that the statement is not a threat or an insult from me, just a statement of reality. Simply admitting that it is better here than most places is enough for me to accept why you choose to stay and to not deem you a hypocrite. I don’t oppose your thoughts or your principles. I think you are probably a person that is good at heart and someone I would be proud to call a friend. I don’t ever mean to insult you personally.
And for the record I agree that the constitution has been bastardized at this point. And the government is to blame. I don’t pretend that the government is good. I only claim that it is better than most of the alternatives currently. As such I want to try to make it better. I want to get it to a place where it is in line with the constitution.
Slave born on the plantation were not allowed to leave, which is different from our current situation. So that analogy is a bit of a stretch for me. But I do agree that economically perhaps saying you have a choice is a bad choice of wording. I am merely saying that I think there are much worse places we could be. I feel like you agree and I don’t have any problem with your stance. I never have actually. There are some who feel differently from you and those are more interesting to me. Their stance is that this is the most evil government of them all. And economic feasibility of leaving is not a concern for them, as they have made clear to us all. My only point is always if you think there is a better place, you are free to go there.
As I said, your statement that there is not a better option right now is enough to satisfy me. I get your point about rights. I hope that you understand that I meant it your way not the other way. Perhaps my statement around rights is better put as in this country the rights you have are less trampled on than most countries.
USWeapon said
And for the record I don’t envision a government that rules us. I envision a government that serves us. That is what the founders intended. That is what the constitution encapsulates. That is what I am after. In my version of the future, people control the government rather than the other way around.
kentmcmanigal said
As for “citizens” being allowed to leave while slaves were not, it is only a matter of degree. You can leave, as long you do it according to the conditions the government sets. Get your permission slips, pay your fees, don’t try to take valuables or cash, or in many cases they will be confiscated since you will be assumed to be a criminal trying to “get away with” something.
Escaping from government has always been a driving force in emigration. If I ever find a place that is enough “freer” to make a difference; and free enough that it would outweigh leaving my family and friends, I will do whatever I need to do to get there. As I have asserted before, the cancer of government infests the whole globe at this point. For the first time in human history, there is no frontier. I have hopes that technology will fix this problem, though I think it will only do so “illegally”. Governments everywhere have a vested interest in making sure no real alternative exists. This is one big reason they conspire to impose government on every region that is, or rather, was without one.
kentmcmanigal said
I left out a point (due to being distracted): When the government allows you to leave the plantation, it is only transferring ownership of you to another government, not really setting you free. That is the point of all the paperwork and restrictions. You might read the experiences of my friend Mike Gogulski.
USWeapon said
Another fair point Kent. I am unaware of the rules that go with leaving. I have lived abroad and the only rule I ever recall is that I had to have a passport in order to legally return. I do think that you are correct that government is everywhere and that means there isn’t necessarily a place without government to go to. Perhaps the lesson there is that nowhere on earth have they found a way to exist without some form of government. No matter the people or their culture or their beliefs, they have found the institution of government to be a necessary evil.
I would be interested in reading what you suggested. Do you have a link to the experiences of Mike G that I can go to?
kentmcmanigal said
I don’t think government is a “necessary evil” any more than are murder or rape (which also exist in every culture).
Mike’s experiences can be found here: link
Methodmenon said
I wonder what a world approaching 7 billion people would be like without governments. I wonder if we would have achieved anything close to what we have in quantum mechanics and information technology without the billions of dollars in government funds that helped us create the right equipment and attract the right brains. Without government help we would not have established the academic institutions which fostered thought created a scientific awareness in the human species that toppled centuries of religious propaganda and which led to the easy lifestyle we all take for granted right now. I’m not saying that life is great but it is much better than the one we were living a thousand years ago with smaller lifespans, no anesthetics, ignorance of the physical world, and the religious propaganda of demons and witches. You are right that governments are not unbiased, selfish, and usually never act fully in the interest of the people they serve but I also think people should realize that without order, the progress of civilization would once again be halted by a primal way of life similar to other animals, including superstition and religious dogma. We all like to talk about a Utopia where everything is right but nature will not allow that to happen. We are what we are because we are another species on our planet. Just like the big cats have prides that kill each other, and elephant herds will deny a calf from another herd because of the scarcity of resources, we too act the same way because otherwise we would not survive as a species on this planet. Governments are no different from herds or prides, the way we act towards other governments reflect nature almost identically. We can’t act outside of nature’s “survival of the fittest” law as well as pretending the resources of this planet are unlimited.
kentmcmanigal said
I think civilization would be much more advanced without the stifling effect of government. After all, look where most of the emphasis in those areas of government sponsored research has been focused: military. I do understand what you mean, but I feel it is a mistaken view of human nature and of survival of the “fittest” (which is actually a distortion of the concept of “survival of the fit”)
Scientific advancement has raised our standards of living and increased our lifespan. That has been done in spite of government “help”; not because of it.
I’m not looking for Utopia. I accept the world with its thorns and mosquitoes and the occasional bad character. But, I reserve the basic human right to own my own body and life, and to defend myself against anyone who tries to take that away.
I believe humans are qualitatively different from almost every other species in that we can make moral choices. We may not always make the right ones, but no one is pretending otherwise. I don’t agree with giving flawed individuals power over the lives of other equally flawed individuals. Truth be known, if we were really all that evil, no government in the universe could control us and keep us from killing one another with abandon. To think otherwise is unrealistic.
Governments have not always existed, why do you assume they must keep existing from this moment on? Tribes, herds, and prides are not even protogovernments; they have no parasitic ruling class that contributes nothing, yet demands to be supported by the resources of the productive members.
USWeapon said
Actually prides do have a ruling male who provides protection and sperm and little else. The females do the hunting and child raising and realistically serve the male. Hence the term “king of the jungle”. The head of the pride naturally acts just like a king.
USWeapon said
And it is a nice argument to say that we would be further along without government help, but the facts of history reveal otherwise. You are right about there at one time being no government. However, until government existed, technological evolution basically stood at a standstill. History bears out that a world without government evolves at a much slower pace than a world with it. So while it is easy to say the entirely free of government world would do things better, that hasn’t been the case in the past. That makes it little more than wishful thinking.
Mike Gogulski said
What is this “America” of which we speak? Is it that which prevails as long as it keeps out the dirty Mexicans?
kentmcmanigal said
That isn’t exactly true about the lions, although that is the common belief. Plus, lions live on the dry plains, not the in the jungle. More here.
The thing is, either way, lions are slaves to their instincts; humans are not. We are able to recognize right from wrong, where the concepts don’t even exist for them. Ants live in the ultimate communist society, but that wouldn’t be good for me either.
blackflag2012 said
To claim “until government existed, technological evolution basically stood at a standstill” is completely contrary to history.
The greatest advance of mankind came from the greatest economic advancement of freedom – Industrial Revolution and the Free Market.
The economy was freed from being controlled by political elite, was now free.
USWep sits in his house because of this – and then claims it was the avocation of the political elite that caused it!
I believe USWep falls into the same paradox that makes the “Broken Window” fallacy of economics such a pervasive example.
By focusing only on what “is seen”, USWep cannot see what was lost.
Yep, violence makes a difference in the world.
Yep, it really distorts much of society and the economy.
But he fails to realize that every dollar the government steals, takes away a dollar from the people.
So he focuses on what government does with its loot – but fails to see what was not done with the money in the hands of free people. Since this option will never happen, it remains lost and unseen, and therefore, irrelevant to the Statist.
So the question is, can a bureaucrat spend someone else’s money better than the person who earned the money?
blackflag2012 said
MIKE STOLE MY FLAG!
blackflag2012 said
PS: Everyone can ’steal’ the flag and fly it at will – the more the merrier.
blackflag2012 said
Has the Time Come to Abolish the State?
A new book, Against the State by philosopher Crispin Sartwell, rejects with impeccable logic the traditional arguments in support of state legitimacy and power. Sartwell finds lacking all of the classics of Western political philosophy–Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Hegel, Hume, Bentham, Rawls, Habermas and others. They were not only wrong, he says, but indefensible.
He lists three traditional arguments in support of state power:
* social contract theories,
* utilitarianism
* justicial views
In the end, Sartwell argues, state power does not reside within the consent given it by the people but, rather, on coercion, primarily, the threat and use of deadly force.
Sartwell argues that the state use of coercion does not follow from legitimacy. Rather, state use of coercion is without legitimacy and demonstrates the illegitimacy of the state. It is on this point, specifically, that I fully concur. I believe that only human beings have rights. States, like corporations, are mere legal abstractions. What right has a legal abstraction to require of any one of us anything whatsoever? What if 200 million people told the state to **** off?
I might have welcomed a strong, centralized state had I been certain that it would exercise its awesome power only against those would subvert the liberties of individuals or rob them of the fruits of their labor, necessities, homes, families, educations, careers. Certainly, George W. Bush has proven as no other President in our nation’s history has or could have done that there is, indeed, no state of any form that can be entrusted with the care of our rights or welfare.
http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2009/01/has-time-come-to-abolish-state.html
Mike Gogulski said
@blackflag2012: No, I stole it from Spangler. Pppppttttt
blackflag2012 said
He stole it from me!
(Good for him)
Actually, we’ve all stolen it from an Anarchist On-line magazine… :p
Kyle Grant said
Look I have 6 yrs Navy and 3 college degrees, AS in Science, BSME and a MBA ………..I will sell you cheap….cost me 6 yrs and 96,000 dollars
I just want out of this 3rd world hell hole you call the best country………..what a JOKE…..the worlds Greatest Country….the Republican SWINES have ruined this………!
I just want out
fuck the worlds,”Greatest Country”….why can’t the “Worlds Greatest Country”, pay me a living wage….???????????????….WHY………..why you commie rat republican…WHY…………??????
I just want out but I am a slave wage and very poor , I can not afford a plane ticket out of this cesspool……I hate republican america, but I can not afford to leave this cesspool for a better 3rd world country……just glad I am not sick and forced to die like our Sailors did under the Japs in Bataan
Welcome to america…………….land of NO HOPE ….what kind of country is this……………????? REPUBLICAN SCUMS….You commie ass republicans created this…………!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hate you REPUBLICAN SCUMS
Regan, Bush………….COMMIE NAZI RATS…..DEATH TO NAZI SWINES………………like the REPUBLICAN PARTY……the Republicans sold us out to the COMMIE CHINA RATS
GODDAMN YOU REPUBLICANS………….may you burn in hell and choke on all the money you rob from us
I want out of this place…………I wish to live in a land of hope……and commie republican america is not it…!
Scum terrorist republicans………..republicans = HITLER and Bin Ladin