Tuesday Night Open Mic for July 7, 2009
Posted by USWeapon on July 8, 2009
And we reach another Tuesday night. I apologize for not being around much this week. Or at least I offer a minimalist apology. I don’t have the access to be able to get in here much. Even if I was Bill Gates and wanted to spend the money to be on here constantly, I simply don’t have the time with my travels. Mrs. Weapon and I hiked about ten miles yesterday into the Alaskan wilderness. We were back out this morning around 7:00 and took to the Yukon. Quite a trip thus far. I will paste in a picture from this evening as we were leaving this particular area. In about 7 hours, we will be hitting Tracy’s Arm Fjord. We will be out wildlife hunting. The area is chock full of Grizzly Bears, Bald Eagles, and Moose. Looking forward to seeing some of each (although not too close to the Bears). But what’s on everyone’s mind in terms of current events?
I have only a couple of topics to get things started. As I said the other night, I don’t have a lot of access up here, which makes it a GREAT vacation!
USWeapon said
USWeapon Topic #1
Sarah Palin announced her resignation from the governorship of Alaska this past weekend. Not many people had seen this move coming, at least not yet. And the left and right have jumped to all kinds of conclusions about why this happened. My personal belief is that she is preparing to run for the Senate in Alaska in order to gain the requisite federal legislative experience to legitimize a run for the Presidency.
Why do you think she resigned and what do you think lies in the future for Sarah?
GarthD said
She resigned for the reasons she said. Have found her to be an honest politician which is usually an oxymoron. Many don’t like her because she says it as she sees it.
Sarah will have a good future as she is able to draw crowds. Wish she had been at our Dallas TEA Party. Instead of 37,000 we would have had 75,000 even in the heat.
If she does something on the national scene, my wife and I will work for her.
Ray Hawkins said
Honest? Definition of honest must be very pliable to throw her in that bucket. Sheesh!
GarthD said
There you go Ray, making me laugh again.
JayDickB said
Ray – Could you give us some examples of where you think she has been dishonest?
I have not been impressed with Palin’s political depth or intellect, but I don’t see any dishonesty.
Bob said
What are peoples views on the windfall tax on the profits of oil companies and then kicked backed to Alaskans?
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/27/palin-shares-wealth/
Todd said
Bob,
Good question. Seems like Palin is more a socialist than Obama.
This is another reason she quit – oil revenues are plummeting, meaning Alaska will have to make tough decisions, something Palin is not good at.
Kathy said
Are you two serious? Thank you for bringing this up – you are making it too easy.
Do you understand what she did and the difference between BO’s spreading the wealth plans? Apparently not, so let me help.
The oil production business in Alaska is huge and so for the people of Alaska to reap the rewards of their state, she gave back to the citizens of Alaska, the money that was excessive. As this article says, so much money that no income tax is even necessary. Coming from a highly taxed state, I can only imagine how nice that is for the local citizens.
Now, to contrast Obama, he will take money from citizens and give to other citizens, mainly to punish those citizens that do well for being wealthy.
Do you not see the difference?
Todd said
Kathy,
So it’s Ok to tax companies that use natural resources? So we could raise the taxes/fees charged for grazing on federal lands, or for oil, gas, & mineral rights on federals lands?
Spreading the wealth is spreading the wealth. Making one type Ok is a pretty shallow argument.
Amazed1 said
In a way that is already being done. The government pays a timber tax for every tree on it’s property. It comes to our schools…the more government timber in your county the more money you get.
Kathy said
Todd, please read JAC’s response below and if that still doesn’t help you understand, then I just need to wish you well, I guess.
Bob said
Why is it fair to impose taxes on a companies profits? The money is then given to people who have not earned it, when you tax the company you are then taking money from the CEO, board, shareholders and possibly the workers of the companies. Why is this fair?
Alan F. said
The nonrenewable part should be setting off bells galore. Oil companies like mines do not make they take. Why shouldn’t the people of Alaska get something rather than a resource company continuing to make hay from their ability to politic in the past. When its all gone the people will still be staying, the resource company…
Life of Illusion said
Bob,
I think its interesting. We are supposed to be the United States, meaning we band together to form a whole, but still have states free to act as the choose. Don’t want to get too deep on that.
If we look at oil drilling, the federal government has passed laws making it illegal to drill 200 miles off our coasts, except where they have allowed.
China is drilling 90 miles of Florida’s coast. Why can each state not decide if to use this resource, especially before
a foreign country takes advantage of our
policy?
As for the tax, I think its good for them, it lets the people decide how to spend it, vs. a big brother deciding it must go to health care or other.
Todd said
LOI,
Is this really true? Can you provide more information?
Life of Illusion said
This is a partial transcript of “The Big Story With John Gibson,” April 27, 2006, that has been edited for clarity.
JOHN GIBSON, HOST: Wednesday I told you how China and other countries plan to drill for oil just off the Florida Straits. Check out this map. You see that area near Cuba? China’s doing it. France is drilling there. So is Canada. But no American companies are allowed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193665,00.html
Bob said
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/40776.html
Alan F. said
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/china_starts_oil_drilling.html
Life of Illusion said
Alan, Bob,
Lets jump down to #10.
Just A Citizen said
I think it is great. It is their oil and they can do with it what they want.
The argument that this is “spreading the wealth” in the same context as that used by Obama is pure B.S..
One takes from one group of citizens and transfers it to another under the belief system of “social justice”.
The other takes a “flat tax” rate applied to “profits” of State owned resources and returns the cash value to the citizens on an equal basis.
Seems to me the Alaskans are closer to getting the thing right than the rest of us.
The question is whether the state can still apply the “TAX” to all profits on oil extracted from the state. If they can then the tax allows them to get paid for the resource removed from their state which happens to be under Federal Land. Land which was supposed to be given to Alaska to support itself when it was made a state. But then the Fed’s changed their mind.
Bob, I do have a problem with “windfall profits” taxes. While that is the name applied here it doesn’t seem to work out that way mechanically. A windfall tax usually has a different rate for different profit margins. The Alaska tax takes a flat rate for all profits.
The Windfall tax debate came over public outcry over big oil profits a couple of years back. The total numbers were huge, but the profit rates were not that much different. I never have seen a good explanation of how that worked. Volume would have had to account for ALL of the increased profit and it didn’t seem to hold.
And by the way, I think the US Taxpayers may not be getting a Fare Market Value for the oil leases on federal lands. It is only a feeling I get when comparing private lease rates to federal rates. But we have to discount the added cost of operating on federal lands and I don’t have the numbers at hand.
Sorry about rambling. Probably got the whole thing confused now.
JAC
Bob said
Wait a minute oil companies would have bid for the rights to drill that oil, they are then subject to windfall taxes on profit that they make, why should an oil company be subject to those taxes, does that not go against the ideals of a free market?
Just A Citizen said
I don’t know how the bidding process works in AK. so can’t say yes or no on that.
Note in the articles that the left leaning folks keep referring to it as “windfall tax” but the actual law as stated is a flat tax on profits above a certain base. But only on profits and it passes no judgement about equity of the profits.
I would rather have seen them tie royalties or lease rates to production and price. But AK is a capitalist pro business state. Thus they went with profits and not gross revenue.
On the Federal side you forget there is considerable Fed interference with the market place both directly and indirectly as it relates to Lease Values. The result is that “Americans” who supposedly own the oil may not be getting Fair Market Value.
And Yes it does go against free market values but not because of the tax. It is because the state and federal govt owns the land.
Once we decide govt land is and OK concept then the people should get Fair Market Value for the resources under that land. Then the state may assign what ever fees they wish and the oil companies may make their decisions accordingly. Thus a new free market value is established, to the extent that no other coersion is used once the deal is done.
Common Man said
JAC
I put together an article addressing the idea of a Coalition or as I called it a movement and sent it to USW as a possible ‘guest commentary’. I would send it to you if you like, but don’t have your email. Maybe USW can send it to you.
CM
Just A Citizen said
Yes, tell him to send to me.
FrankC said
“C’mon Alan – is this is a trick question? Can you say William Jefferson Clinton?”
At first glance and remembrance, that retort sounds valid.
How long did it take for the MSM to find out about all the abuses that bubba committed against women? Like NEVER !! It was alternate media if I’m not mistaken.
If you (and I’m sure you do) thijk that the Curic or Gibson interview was anything othe rthan a hatchet job than you are clueless. Did you watch the VP debate Palin/Biden? How many obvious LIES did Joe tell and the MSM was quiet !! GMAFB.
And so far all negatives I’ve heard about Palin have vaporized. And you know if there was just a tiny bit of true it would be brought out.
After Watergate, I decided to ignore all the media about OJ, Reagan (less you forgot that he’s a retard, etc ), who ever – the guy who killed his wife, the Mississippi gal in Curacao, etc.
Oh well.. \cya later
Ray Hawkins said
I guess we’ll re-ignite from yesterday.
Why did she resign? That is real tough to answer – apparently even she is not so sure. When you have someone such as her that lacks leadership skills, common sense, political acumen, is lazy, is ill-suited for much politically beyond being the mayor of a pimple on the ass town like Wasilla – then you get unpredictability – which oddly many conservatives latch onto as the teet of “shaking things up”.
Her future? Another creepy Ann Coulter-type that’s going to rebel rouse the extremism that is the far right. Just as Eliot Spitzer has magically re-appeared on scene, Sarah will be given her righteous place (god help us all) as someone to craft the Republican message going forward – if for another reason than she is un-justifiably popular.
She makes me sick – a complete whack job walking pile of contradiction who QUIT.
terry said
Ray, first I really do not agree with your assessment of Mrs. Palin. Second, I believe that her popularity is rooted in the fact that she is more of a regular person than most (if not all) other high profile politicians.
Ray Hawkins said
I guess I don’t know what a regular person is then. Is it somewhere who pretends to be something they are not? Is it someone who gives the middle finger to a constituency that elected her to office then watches her shirk her responsibility to them?
terry said
Son, I am beginning to get the impression that you really don’t like Sarah. That’s fine. She is polarizing to say the least. By normal, I mean that she is not part of the elite crowd, and comes across as “normal”…to me at least.
Ray Hawkins said
You’re equating polarizing with normal? Ugh!
terry said
I am not equating polarizing to normal…I am acknowledging that she is polarizing. I am what I consider normal, and if I was in a public light I would be considered polarizing with the beliefs I have…and by the way, so would you.
Murphy's Law said
Ray,
Terry wrote: “She is polarizing to say the least. By normal, I mean that she is not part of the elite crowd, and comes across as “normal”…to me at least.”
He equated “not part of the elite crowd” with “normal”, and you deliberately substituted ‘polarizing’ from his previous statement to make your own statement……what a cheap transparent trick.
You are beginning to sound more desperate with each post…..come on, man! Write something worthy of our intelligence- or are you going to start to bash that, too, saying that those who don’t agree with you couldn’t possibly have any? I really had come to expect more from you….
Alan F. said
Well said!
Note to self: no slip ups with Murph reading…
Ray Hawkins said
Nice try again Murph
Palin is normal
Palin is polarizing
Suggests someone who is normal is also polarizing.
Murphy's Law said
Not at all…..you alone chose to make that connection- there was nothing in his post to connect the two.
As I said, it was a cheap trick- one I see in the major media all the time when they have chosen to dislike someone.
Ray Hawkins said
You’re absolutely right Murphy – we make some assumptions regarding the information supplied to us – everyone here does it yourself included. My interpretation is valid – find another tree to bark up.
DKII said
That’s a fairly stupid statment.
I’m a human being.
I’m a Libertarian.
Suggests someone who is a human being is also a Libertarian.
If only!
Alan F. said
Obama has proven himself to be polarizing. Pelosi couldn’t be any more polarizing if she made the conscious attempt to do so. You don’t see it as such because its your team of which is being spoken of.
That she so enrages “the other team” has to be another enamoring point for Mrs Palin within those who are not of the current administration’s congregation. I’m surprised you have not leapt upon taking her husband’s name and not retaining her maiden name as being another sign of weakness while you’re grasping away. As I asked before and recieved no answer, I’ll ask again. Name the liberal who had as much attention paid to their background, affairs past and present and family members regardless of age or sex and any other detail of their having existed at all by the main stream media and pundits across America. Name “one”: Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being.
I dare you to say president “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.” Obama.
Murphy's Law said
Ooooh- that was gooooood, Alan!
Ray Hawkins said
Obama polarizing? Not according to the polls (at least the ones that do not target Hannity viewers alone). Try again Alan.
terry said
You had better be re-looking at the more recent polls…The latest Rasmussen poll indicates that 32% strongly approve of the current POTUS and 37% strongly disapprove…his numbers are going just as they should be given his policies…IMHO.
Ray Hawkins said
“Name the liberal who had as much attention paid to their background, affairs past and present and family members regardless of age or sex and any other detail of their having existed at all by the main stream media and pundits across America. Name “one”: Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being.”
C’mon Alan – is this is a trick question? Can you say William Jefferson Clinton?
Alan F. said
Bull. You’re busy counting what? The undeniable fact the man got his rocks off in the oval office with the child of a good friend of his and the media HAD to pick that one up? So you are saying somehow that was the same? In what manner? Details. Better pick that arm up Ray.
Ray Hawkins said
Jeez Alan – thought you were better than this.
Ho hum – Paula Jones, Gennifer Flowers, Whitewater, Vince Foster, Troopergate, his eating habits, his brother Roger – should I keep going or do I see a yella flag yet?
v. Holland said
That’s why she is being attacked because she is seen as an easy target-at first I though it was just normal political smearing because she was running for V.P. and I still believe that it started out that way-but they decided that she was an easy target-she’s not rich, she didn’t go to an Ivy League school, she doesn’t have attorney after her name, she’s from the “small” state of Alaska and she put a spot light on corruption in her own party-So they put her up as their poster child against anything conservative. They figure they can use her to damage the Republican Party and get their fellow liberals all in a frenzy by destroying this one woman-without too many of our republican representatives coming to her rescue because they are angry with her. It has became a mob mentality and they are showing just how low they can go.
Just A Citizen said
It is a Feeding Frenzy.
Ray Hawkins said
Yep – we’re in one big ole frenzy. Needed an easy punching bag like Palin. Prior to her selection as VP running mate under McCain I was actually still an undecided voter. That a person such as her would be selected was insulting to me as a patriot and a citizen.
v. Holland said
Since you believe that Most Conservative/Women are narcissistic I’m not surprised that you were insulted by her selection but surely you have to see that the attacks on Palin have been unusually vicious and unending.
Ray Hawkins said
No – only most conservative women I have met – and there are many.
Alan F. said
But an outright lair like a Barney Frank gets you all a quiver? Wow the last round of midnight jiggery-pokery in the house must have the teeth near rattled out of your head in the throes of near epileptic ecstasy.
Ray Hawkins said
It did Alan – I was literally sweating in profuse glee, howling at the moon and humping a tree in my backyard.
RWBoveroux said
Hope you didn’t get any splinters!! Your wife might object!!
Alan F. said
Stop dutch elm disease, wear a condom.
PeterB in Indianapolis said
Ray,
In what way are Elliot Spitzer and Sarah Palin alike? Seems to me that their situations are completely different, and yet you bring them together in an attempt to form some sort of analogy. Since they and their situations are nothing alike, I fail to understand the analogy.
It seems like you are saying that Palin will “magically reappear on the scene” like Spitzer (and perhaps you are saying that that is all they have in common). However, even if that is the case, Sarah Palin certainly hasn’t disappeared from the scene (and she probably won’t), so her “magical reappearance” will be unnecessary.
By the way, Hilary Clinton QUIT her job as Senator of New York… while it is true that she already had something lined up which was higher up the food-chain, it still doesn’t change the fact that she QUIT.
PeterB in Indianapolis said
And I forgot… Obama QUIT his job as Senator for Illinois as well…
Ray Hawkins said
Something tells me Obama may have had another job to actually go to – having trouble putting my finger on it.
Just A Citizen said
So in your world, NOT DOING the job you were hired to do while you pursue another job working for someone else, so that you can come back to the original job if your promotion doesn’t work out is somehow more ethical than just quitting a job.
Interesting concept.
Ray Hawkins said
To the extent you think he was not doing his job is your narrow Sean Hannity driven opinion and you are entitled to it. Anytime I have sought another job with a different employer I did not quit my current job – that is asinine.
Alan F. said
Czar of ACORN?
Alan F. said
Hey was he eligible as true king of ACORNia for the position of state senator and now as president of the United States of America can he still wear the crown in public?
Kathy said
I’ll repeat from yesterday, Ray, who was covering Obama’s Senate District when he upped and left after two years? That is OK?
In reality, he quit on the people who elected him but continued to collect his taxpayer-funded salary? Is that your idea of honesty?
Ray Hawkins said
Debate is on Palin not Obama.
But FTR – who was covering McCain’s district?
Kathy said
“I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I’m the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois,” then-Senator-elect Obama said the day after his election in 2004.
Should have been the big red flag way back then that this guy’s word means nothing…..
Ray Hawkins said
I thought four years that I would never leave consulting and return to an industry job. Then the economy shit the bed and our business fell apart. Guess that I left my job makes me a liar also eh?
Bama dad said
I missed where Illinois fell apart and Obummer had to seek another job. Way to deflect answering the statement Kathy made.
Ray Hawkins said
Let me spell it out then Bama – circumstances change and people are allowed to change their career path. To suggest that makes one a liar or untrustworthy is just ridiculous.
Murphy's Law said
Ray,
Circumstances change, and in your personal case the way you tell it, sure. But did you stand before your employer and say unequivocally that you would not leave for 4 years? You are overlooking that this was a PROMISE that Obama made to those who elected him. And that makes ALL the difference here.
Murphy's Law said
OTFLMAO!!!! Great point, and right on, Bama!
Ray Hawkins said
Peter – I think (but I could be waaaaaaaaaaaay off here) that Hilary had another job to go to.
Ray Hawkins said
Leave job under shady circumstance – reappear as though nuthin’ ever happened.
terry said
You should know that Americans have a relatively short memory where the popular are concerned…
Alan F. said
Hillary left her job for a “shady” situation? Isn’t that a racial slur? Where are the “out of context” cops when you need them?
Just A Citizen said
Alan, you are on your game today. That was fuuuuunnny!
Richmond Spitfire said
Wow Ray,
I think that you totally do not get Sarah Palin. As Garth says above, I view her as an honest person who does indeed “tell it like it is”. She represents me, middle-America, working-class with ethics. All of your negative characteristic comments except for “lazy”, I’ll give you a pass on (but I think you are wrong — way off) because they are your opinions and you are entitled to that. I don’t get the “lazy” comment though…where is that coming from…please prove to me that she’s lazy? Since she came into the national picture (i.e. into my view), I haven’t seen a lazy bone in her body.
My children LOVE her…my 7-year old daughter writes her letters and sends her drawings. My two youngest went to her rally her in Richmond and were VERY excited. This lady speaks very clearly with a message that a great deal of us “normal” people get and support. I’ve never worked on a campaign, but like Garth, if the opportunity presents itself, I will and I know that my family will. She is a powerful presence.
In regards to her resigning…I got the message clearly. She was doing the “right” thing for the constituents in her state by not wasting state monies anymore because she is a TARGET for left-leaning loons who are attempting to cut her hamstrings because they are scared for the powerhouse that she is and her GREAT potential. Gee Ray, doesn’t that show “Ethics” in the face of adversity? Doing the right thing — even knowing that it will be perceived as controversial? Don’t you EVER make tough decisions?
I sincerely hope that Sarah Palin cuts ties with the Republican Party. The way she was treated by campaign staff is unaccepatable to me.
I am so happy that you see her as a whackjob! To me, that means that my instincts over Sarah Palin are ringing true. In my humble and countrified opinion, a true whackjob is Janeane Garofalo.
GO SARAH!
Regards,
RS
Life of Illusion said
Well said Spitfire!
As a new father Ray, how can you call the mother of five “lazy”? You know that is a load of crap.
“a pimple on the ass town like Wasilla”? I’ve never been there, so can’t say that’s accurate or not. Suspect you have never been there and are just being mean, again.
How about we discuss Palin on issues. She is for drilling in ANWAR, skeptic on global warming, personally against all abortion, but politically supports the right to choose,
pro-guns and hunting, fiscal conservative. Which of those are you against?
Ray Hawkins said
Ahh – okay – that she bore five kids doesn’t mean she is the chief caregiver – in fact – if you’re going to suggest she is and is therefore not lazy – then I’m going to wonder who the hell was behind the wheel for Alaska. Try again folks.
Kristian said
I didn’t get a chance to read here yesterday or I would have posted before this. Are you nuts? I have 2 children and a 40 hour a week job and I manage both just fine. Are you seriously suggesting that she can’t do both? I think maybe you need to back up off the woman just a little bit. Until you have walked a mile in her shoes you really don’t know what you are talking about.
Ray Hawkins said
I am not suggesting she cannot – I am suggesting she probably does not. You’ll judge me for judging her? Who is the hypocrite now Kristian? I don’t need to walk a mile in her shoes any more than you need to walk in mine or I in yours.
Kristian said
Not judging, asking the question how can you judge her when you haven’t been in her shoes and had to make some of decisions and choices that she has had to make? And yes, I think before you have the right to judge her you have to see this whole thing from her perspective to understand why she did what she did. If it were your wife in the position that Mrs. Palin was in would you judge her as harshly for quitting?
Ray Hawkins said
(1) Even she apparently does not understand why she quit – else she is flat out a liar;
(2) If your criteria for opinion or judgment is you must walk in the other person’s shoes then I’d ask you to retract every opinion you have shared about every politician on this blog – unless of course you have walked in their shoes. Stop with the double standard.
Kristian said
You are a fine one to talk about a double standard. When you can stop holding Republicans and conservatives to a different standard than a Democrat or liberal we’ll talk about double standards.
Alan F. said
Hey leave Janeane Garofalo alone. She took a check and was on 24 wasn’t she?
EsomHillGazette said
Well said Spitfire!!
I think that the main problem with Mrs. Palin is that she is not politician enough for Ray and the other Liberal and Moderate Nabobs out there basking in the shade of Obama’s glory.
Of course, that is exactly the part that draws me to her. If she can learn the Political side of things without becoming a crooked thief, er,um, Politician, then she sure has my vote.
As for quitting as Governor to set up for election as something else like Senator, why that seems like a particularly HONEST thing for her to do. A lot more honest than Obama, Clinton, Biden, or any of the rest.
Ray Hawkins said
I’m not comfortable with a ‘leader’ that cannot figure out how to scratch her own ass.
Richmond Spitfire said
Well Ray,
Perhaps you aren’t comfortable with a leader who refuses to scratch someone else’s @ss?????
Regards,
RS
terry said
But he is evidently comfortable with one who will kiss anothers…
Alan F. said
The Saudi King’s ass is in the front of his robe? They really are from another world.
Alan F. said
Plain old insults are easy.
Ray Hawkins said
And funny from time to time. Consider it a metaphor for softballs like “what is the bush doctrine” – that is akin for most Republicans at that time to scratching their own ass.
Ray Hawkins said
But she’ll say she is a fighter? What gives? I gave an example elsewhere herein with regards to her laziness when it came to doing the things she was asked to do during the campaign. I also suggest anyone who quits because (whiny crybaby voice) “these darn ethics complaints” were preventing her from doing her job – its one big crock of shit. The right is spinning this up that all the supposed ethics investigations are active and ongoing and costing millions of dollars. Uh – bullshit? She quit because she is lazy.
Ray Hawkins said
I pray she never ever runs for office anywhere – she is a classic gumby – no brains, no heart, no guts and no spine.
Bama dad said
“When you have someone such as her that lacks leadership skills, common sense, political acumen, is lazy, is ill-suited for much politically beyond being the mayor of a pimple on the ass town like Wasilla – then you get unpredictability – which oddly many conservatives latch onto as the teet of “shaking things up”.
Dad gum Ray, change her to him, mayor to community organizer and you just descried your savior “Obummer”, you know the one that is stumbling around Washington right now. I wish he would resign. On second thought I retract that wish as it would leave us with Joe “I open my mouth without a thought” Biden.
Ray Hawkins said
President Obama has no political acumen? Um – bahahahahahahaha – that’s funny Bama – for a second I thought you were serious.
Alan F. said
Actually I have it from that bastion of truth “unnamed source” that Obama actually used his skills learned while apprenticing for Ron Popeil to become president.
PeterB in Indianapolis said
Ray,
Don’t confuse charisma with political accumen.
Charisma Obama has in ABUNDANCE.
Political accumen? Sorry, he ain’t got it.
Ray Hawkins said
Really Peter? Weren’t ya’ll just patting him on the back a week or so ago for his position and approach on Iran?
Bama dad said
ac•u•men (āk’yə-mən, ə-kyōō’-)
n. Quickness, accuracy, and keenness of judgment or insight
He is so scripted when the teleprompter go off, he can’t stack 6 words together and make them into a coherent sentence.
EsomHillGazette said
If that teleprompter goes off, he sounds like Porky Pig. Ebdebedebdebdebeee.
Ray Hawkins said
Because sounding like a bumbling dumbass in front of the world makes us more ‘real’
RWBoveroux said
I can do without this realness thank you very much.
I remember people, Repubs and Demos, ripping into bush because he could not get a complete sentence out when he was asked a question off the cuff. Now, you are saying because someone stutters and stammers when without the prepared\approved\vetted\politically correct answer it is a good thing? I think the word I am looking for is hypocrite, but I may also be looking for idiotic, double standard, down right ridiculous.
RWBoveroux said
I have this vision in my head of him going “That’s all folks!!!”
Richmond Spitfire said
Me too! LOL
D13 said
Ray….out of curiosity…would you please, for my benefit, compare Palin and Obama? Your thoughts, sir. By the way, how are you today?
D13
Ray Hawkins said
Greetings D13. Comparing the two? That could take hours so I’ll do a quick drive-by
President Obama – inexperienced as he may have been/seemed – was someone groomed and tooled for the job he is in – he still has to grown into it somewhat, but he came to the table with a lot of the right tools and attributes needed to succeed.
Sarah Palin – her toolbelt is different – she was thrust into a spotlight she was ill prepared for, and was disinterested in growing into. Lacking basic and fundamental grasp of core issues she instead tried the “I’m one of ya’ll” tactic which works well in local and even some State-level forums. She could have gone back to Alaska, worked her rear off to improve her leadership, her issues management and understanding, and awareness – instead she turned into a whining crybaby that too many people were picking on her.
Ray Hawkins said
D13 – you’re ex-military right? How does the military handle or view quitters?
Murphy's Law said
Ray,
Sarah Palin is “un-justifiably popular”? Were you being deliberately arrogant there, or did it sort of slip out and you hope no one calls you on it? Who died and set you up as judge and jury on why the American public likes someone, and whether those reasons are “justifiable”? Oh wait, I forgot, only the liberals can, from their lofty positions as…..uh…..oh that’s right, liberals……can judge the rest of us. Very intolerant of views other than your own, eh? I like reading your posts, or at least I did, but now you are turning more shrill by the day, maybe even the minute. I’ve noticed that is what people do when they run out of arguments with substance.
Richmond Spitfire already called you out on your assessment that Palin is lazy….I notice you have not backed that up. Any other liberals who post here going to come to his rescue? Anyone?
And, folks, I think he was trying to say, “rabble rouse” in his post. Apparently too lazy to make sure he gets his phrases straight. You can google both phrases if you want to check it out……
The other day D13 said you make us think…….I’m not so sure any more. Well, ok, it made me think that you didn’t put much thought into that post other than making it sound like you can write well, which actually you do. Too bad the content is nothing more than the poop in the sandwich mentioned yesterday.
Ray Hawkins said
Its my opinion Murph so I am the judge. Make sense?
Un-justifiably popular – I was trying to keep this clean from yesterday but this is stuck in your craw so I’ll reiterate:
An overwhelming majority of conservative/Republican women I talked to liked her because they saw themselves in her (the whole hickey mom bs), she was a woman (great qualification to be VEEP), or conservative women just tend to be more narcissistic (sort of like – Sarah Palin!). Most had no idea what her positions were, what her record was and what she actually stood for.
Conservative/Republican men liked her because she fulfills that creepy Pat Buchanan-esque VPILF ’she’s purdy’ garbage. Again – no idea what she stood for, what her record was and what her positions for – they just saw, for the first time, a candidate they secretly could see themselves in the sack with.
As for lazy? Okay – its well established that gargantuan efforts were made to help prepare her positionally for the campaign. Its also well established that she had no interest in putting in the sweat equity to properly prepare herself for campaigning that was not carefully scripted – e.g. interviews on the so-called MSM. That is lazy.
Want more? Why is the good Ms. Palin ducking for cover? So you think you’re going to be a lame duck gov eh? So you quit. Idiot conservatives call her smart – I call her LAZY.
Naten53 said
Ray I am trying to form an opinion about what a lame duck governor is.
Can you answer a couple questions for me?
Did you vote for your current governor?
Do you support (all/most/some/few/or none) of the governors ideas?
What do you think of your current state’s direction? (wrong, right, or wrong on some things right on some things)
Ray Hawkins said
Yes – Ed Rendell
Most
Direction – mostly right – if they decide to jack up taxes rather than look for more effective government you’ll soon see a Republican back in a la Tom Ridge
Naten53 said
So what I get from this Ray is that you want your state government to be more effective, sounds fair.
Ray Hawkins said
Naten – I want all levels to be more effective because I know they can. I have worked in government before as have my parents and now my younger sister and my brother-in-law. Effective does not equal big to me. Government can be more efficient at all levels – from my experience they actively choose not to.
Alan F. said
Ray the exact same “Most had no idea what his positions were, what his record was and what he actually stood for.” can be said but with actual exit poll footage (as in video wherein those being recorded actually know they are being recorded, have a chance to think of what’s being recorded and still answered the questions anyway) to prove it with regard to your man Obama. Everything you’re saying so far swings right back at you and you’re actually doing to Sarah Palin what you went off on everyone else about regarding Nancy Pelosi and president Obama. How cool is that?
Just a bunch of righties? Right back at you lefties. And on it goes…
Ray Hawkins said
Typical tactic Alan – debate me on the subject matter at hand – Sarah Palin – you keep trying to change it (like most conservatives) because you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Alan F. said
Actually just pointing out another round of hypocrisy. You can’t possible think its OK to use one set of rules for your opponents and another entirely lax set for your own dogs in the race? Someone’s going to point that out every time. May as well be me as any.
Ray Hawkins said
Go back to the original question – it was about Sarah. I answered the question to which you seem incapable of offering any more retort than “she doesn’t suck because look at Obama…..blah blah blah”
Alan F. said
“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.”
Murphy's Law said
Ray,
You still don’t get it. Expressing your own opinion of her is fine, and encouraged here. You were passing judgment on OTHERS’ reasons for liking her when you pronounced her popularity as “unjustifiable”. Make sense?
As for her being lazy……bilgewater! You haven’t backed up your argument at all. You should take a page from D13’s book, and cite sources.
Ray Hawkins said
Cite sources? Take a page from D13’s book? Huh? I am offering my opinion pure and simple on Ms. Palin – I’ll offer you examples that support my opinion. You want me to cite sources? Then play by the same rules chief. You’ll go to great lengths to support to spew that criticizes our President w/o making the same demand. Its okay when its an opinion you agree with eh?
Richmond Spitfire said
Dear Judge Ray,
I have stood before you and you have found me guilty of being a “hickey mom” and “narcisstic” — and you don’t even know me.
I am so sorry that I offend your sensibilities for being a “hick”. It is just that I was raised to have realistic goals and values. I was raised that I was to always do the right thing. I was raised to be responsible for myself and to not rely on others to give me what I needed. I was raised to be myself.
Yeap…I used to shoot rats at the dump on my pappy’s lap on the tailgate of the pickemup…that sur wer fun! Fishin’ sur is the next bestest thing…
Ray, why all the obsession over Sarah Palin being a VPILF or MILF or WWILF (or whatever ILF)…? Since you keep harping on it, perhaps you have some secret fantasy there….
Your statements on her being lazy…that is just simply BS…try a bit harder please.
Best Regards,
“Hickey Mom” (aka Richmond Spitfire)
Just A Citizen said
I love Hickey women. Of course that requires wearing shirts with a high collar.
Nice to see you are still firing on all cylinders Spitfire.
Big Hugs Today
JAC
Kathy said
Spitfire, funny, funny! But to side with Ray here, could he have meant “hockey”? Or not…..
Richmond Spitfire said
Well…I thought he was referencing a woman who may have a “hickey” on her neck, thus making her partly redneck…
My bad Ray…you probably did mean “hockey”…
EsomHillGazette said
I laks them Hickey women too. Matter of fact, I are married to one!!
Ray Hawkins said
I meant hockey FTR
Just A Citizen said
No Kathy
He was referring to women of the “country bumpkin” variety.
Ray Hawkins said
Huh? Back the train up Spitfire (or whatever your actual name is) – please re-read my post – I specifically said my comments were based on people I have met and talked to – which did not include you. I live in a predominantly Republican county west of Philadelphia – for obvious reasons most people I have met and will meet do not share my views.
Richmond Spitfire said
Ray,
You said:
An overwhelming majority of conservative/Republican women I talked to liked her because they saw themselves in her (the whole hickey mom bs), she was a woman (great qualification to be VEEP), or conservative women just tend to be more narcissistic (sort of like – Sarah Palin!). Most had no idea what her positions were, what her record was and what she actually stood for.
***************
Now Ray, can you agree that you and I have “talked”/debated on issues at this site in the past? (If you can’t, I’ll go back and find the postings that we’ve traded.)
Next question Ray…do you see me as a “conservative/Republican” woman or a “liberal/Democrat” woman?
Now Ray, based upon what you said in your posting, you’ve lumped conservative/Republican women into a general category that describes them as “Hickey” (aka Hockey) Moms and having narcissistic characteristics. Do you see why I feel that you have judged me and have “put-down/slammed” alot of very nice conservative women at this site? I don’t think that you have judged me personally (i.e. I think Richmond Spitfire is a narcissistic Hickey Mom), but because of your prejudice against conservative women, you have indeed judged us conservative women.
Your comments insinuate that conservative thinking women are vapid and concerned ONLY with themselves. I kinda resent that.
Regards,
RS
Ray Hawkins said
“An overwhelming majority of….” – sorry, but you alone do not constitute “an overwhelming majority of”. If you want to go that route did you not say you see yourself in her?
Richmond Spitfire said
Dear Ray,
Normally, I would just throw up my arms and say, “whatever”, but I’m not going to let this one go because I feel that it really is important for you to see the reality of why Sarah Palin appeals to so called “normal” peeps of my bent and understand why people may be offended when you “bash” what they basically see as “themselves”.
I have a High School diploma. I never went to college, but I have conservative work ethics that permitted me to do very well for myself without the benefit of a college degree. I started out as an Admin Assistant at a regional bank (acquired over time to be one of the largest banks in the nation). I took every opportunity that I could; I brought work home, I became known as a person who would “get the job done” no matter what it took. I am now a Vice President in this company that I work for. All through this time, I had three children and have at times raised them on my own. I made some mistakes; but I did do things right too – golly, who is perfect!? It has been hard work, but it is work that I am proud off. I’m plain-spoken and will ask questions when I need to – don’t always understand things, but am not too proud to admit that. I enjoy “red-neck” type things such as fishing, shooting, playing pool and hanging out with people that have the same struggles as my family. I could go on and on here, but my intent is to not bore you to death.
When Sarah Palin came into the national picture in August, 2008, and as I learned more about her, I was relieved…Finally, here is a person that represents me…a person who has the same types of struggles that I do…Her family isn’t wealthy…she has the same personal struggles as a parent that I do…in some cases, her struggles are even tougher than mine. Ray, I just knew in my heart that Sarah Palin “got it” because she’s “living it”. I thought, “Here is a woman who has a conservative work ethic and is known to get the job done”. I thought, “This woman has managed to really do well for herself even though she doesn’t have the all important ivy-league traditional education that ‘seems’ to be a prerequisite to enter the political arena…this woman has substance because she’s managed to get ahead in a world that is not friendly to people (men or women) that don’t fit the traditional mold.” WOW! I thought, “This woman isn’t afraid to speak her mind, this woman has gone up against her own party because it was the right thing to do…This woman is a WARRIOR”. I thought, “This woman is me”.
Do you think that I equate Sarah Palin as me? No, I don’t…I do have some differing opinions from her on some issues, but mostly, I do identify with her.
To answer your question Ray, YES, I see myself in Sarah Palin and I really do believe that a lot of other people (men and women) also see themselves in Sarah Palin! I don’t have a crystal ball to know the direction that Ms. Palin will take, but I do believe that she is a force to be reckoned with and will have great successes in the future. I welcome her (and others like her) with open arms to make “realistic change” for the benefit of our great country.
With great respect,
Karyn (aka Richmond Spitfire)
Ray Hawkins said
Karyn – thanks for sharing. I’ll assume you do not use your full name because you fear some sort of retribution from your work or are afraid to publicly avail your opinion (or, perhaps you’re blogging on work time which isn’t really a conservative work ethic is it?). Most conservatives I have met want you to know what they think and do not hide behind clever monikers or alter egos – not sure why that is so pervasive here.
I am still somewhat confused as to your perceived relationship with Sarah Palin – you state that you see yourself in her, you identify with her, so and so forth. Look, I’ll give her credit – she advanced herself up a path not taken by most, she’s earned her way to where she is (until the end of the month anyway). What I am getting at is this:
You are a VEEP for a Bank – now please do not take this personally, but I have worked for years for Banks – and I know that they hand out VEEP titles like candy – rare was the banker I met that was not a vice president. Point is that in that vast pool of VEEPS, not all VEEPS are tooled or packing the gear to be CEO one day – most are not. There are qualities, traits and abilities that are needed to run the job. Look around you – at your other VEEPS – the ones that are “like” you – now do you picture them running this large Bank you now work for? I doubt it. The outliers are the ones usually and typically that will move to the front of that leadership line. Inherent I think in this process or way of thinking is having enough self-awareness and reality check to know where your end of the line is – to know when the water is too deep and you not only risk drowning yourself but those around you as well. Sarah Palin is that person. It struck me even more when she finally ‘tapped out’ – she is only serving the best interests of her State if she realized perhaps that even as Governor of Alaska she was in over her head.
You have every right to continue with the “go Sarah; go Sarah” chants. Do I want to identify with my POTUS? Absolutely. But I want him/her to bring more to the table than I can or would.
Richmond Spitfire said
Continued to Posting #31 for readabilty.
Life of Illusion said
I’m not sure what to think. She talks about being a “lame duck” governor, which I take to mean the legislature will not meet for that period, so no laws will be passed. But that is only part of job.
With 15 lawsuits filed against her, she could not do her job well, and it likely hurt Alaska as well. So, I agree with her on that. Being a private citizen, able to generate income to pay her half million legal fees would be necessary and practical.
I wonder if the main reasons are not personal, she and her family have been under attack. What kind of life is that for their children?
From The Bobo Files, Palin’s Resignation is Brilliant!
http://thebobofiles.com/
GarthD said
Here is the full Bobo files comment. Don’t know who wrote it but it resonates with me.
I decided to take the weekend to think her resignation through before I commented on it. After lots of thought about it – it’s brilliant! Sarah Palin has put herself out there as a Conservative first – Republican second. Sure – she might still be one of those Republitards – but – her resignation has just solidified her standing as a Fiscal Conservative.
She has proven that she is thinking about the taxpayers of Alaska by stepping aside. Those idiots on the left have been coming after her ever since her nomination as the VP elect – then they really stepped over the line and went after her teenage daughter and her handicapped child. They have no shame. In addition, they continue to file frivolous ethics charges against her that continue to be overturned. She has spent millions of Alaskan taxpayer money defending herself in addition to being away from her office to answer to these charges.
Other than showing what a fiscal conservative she is – now that she has stepped down – she has control of the reigns now. She can now step out in to the spotlight and let those idiots on the left really have it. She can actually defend herself without having to worry about it reflecting on her as the Governor, nor does she have to worry about wasting taxpayer money.
Unlike Obama, Biden, McCain, and Hillary – who all campaigned for 18 months – all drawing a full paycheck and benefits from we the taxpayers without performing the jobs they were hired to do – this frees Palin up and does not provide any fodder for those idiots on the left.
In response to their charges that she quit – umm – really? Why are they not holding Obama, Biden, Clinton, Emmanuel, Sebellius, & Napolitano to the same standard? Did they not all quit their jobs that they were elected to? In fact, both Biden and Emmanuel had just been re-elected to their positions. What is the difference? Every one of them “turned their backs on their constituents” also. That’s just another lame excuse from the loony left. I personally believe they are scared to death of Palin. She recently had 20,000 people come to meet her at a parade. There are only 26,000 people in that town. Meanwhile, Biden goes out on a townhall tour and only 100 people out of a population of 103,000 showed up.
Palin has charisma and can attract conservatives from all around the country – Republican, Democrat, and Independents alike. She scares the hell out of not only the Democraps, but the Republitards as well. I stand behind her decision to resign to take on a national presence. Go Get Em, Sarah
Todd said
GarthD,
Could you provide some evidence of this?
This too?
It seems to me she spends more time away from office in the lower 48 states campaigning and attending (or not attending) Republican dinners and functions.
This is just stupid. The difference is they were either elected or appointed to higher office. A very common among all politicians. To equate this to Palin resigning with no plans for the future is ridiculous.
Life of Illusion said
Todd,
If you take a honest look at the ethics involved, Palin gains the high ground. McCain, Clinton, Obama, Biden and others were being paid to do a job, while they were pursuing another job. Doesn’t matter that its the established practice, that does not make it right. That does not mean they are performing their job to the best of their ability, like by READING the laws the are passing.
Alan F. said
With all that’s passing through the house currently with mere hours to read and decipher what’s routinely taking the media outlets themselves days just to cull portions from with clarity, the case could be made that reading what’s being passed has been struck from their job description altogether.
This keeps up and they’ll be merely looking for a symbol, donkey or elephant, at the top of the page. I’m sure even Ray would give Sarah Palin the nod on recognizing symbols… on reflection he likely wouldn’t.
PeterB in Indianapolis said
Todd,
Saying that Palin has no plans for the future is the thing that is ridiculous.
She has not made it clear what those plans are as of yet, and yes, as of yet she has not been elected or appointed to a higher office, but that still does not deny the fact that Obama, Hilary Clinton, Rahm Emmanuel and others also quit the jobs which they were elected by the people of their States to perform.
GarthD said
Todd:
Which part of “Here is the full Bobo files comment. Don’t know who wrote it but it resonates with me.” didn’t you understand.
Todd said
GarthD,
I understood all parts. What’s the value in posting someone else’s inaccurate opinion?
Ray Hawkins said
She has spent millions of taxpayer money – is this someone’s opinion/pure bullshit or truth?
Todd said
Ray,
It’s more ’story-telling’ by Palin. Even her own spokesperson contradicts her statement.
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/republican-party/key-reason-palin-gave-for-quitting-appears-to-be-false/
Ray Hawkins said
Thanks Todd – good find.
Ray Hawkins said
BTW – Sarah herself insinuated millions ‘to be spent’ not already spent. Find me some more BS to shoot down please.
Ray Hawkins said
I just find it astonishing that someone who is pissed about ‘frivolous lawsuits and charges” is being aspired to even higher office. Much of the scuttlebutt coming from her own government is that she is vastly overstating how much time and money the ethics charges are consuming.
terry said
Scuttlebutt is just that…when facts are presented please let me know.
Ray Hawkins said
Four were launched by people in her party, one was launched by herself. During the campaign she stated “hold me accountable” with respect to investigations – what gives? I guess she no longer wanted to be held accountable.
Alan F. said
Thx for pointing out this site. Another novel read I’m adding to the fav’s.
Ray Hawkins said
They weren’t lawsuits, 15 are not active and she isn’t paying anything out of pocket. Add LIAR to her resume.
FrankC said
Ray & Todd,
“that this total was arrived at by adding up attorney hours spent on fending off complaints — based on the fixed salaries of lawyers in the governor’s office and the Department of Law.”
That is the appropriate way to apportion expenses. Obviously you guys have no financial responsibilities. But then you think when POTUS says cut taxes and actually implements massive increases either directly or indirectly, you don’t think he’s LYING !! GMAFB !!
Or the other great federal ruse is stating that they’re reducing xxx,yyy, zzz when in some cock eyed why they MIGHT be reducing the INCREASE of the same.
Ray Hawkins said
A point Frank is that she flat out lied about the cost issue and you fell for it hook, line and sinker – quit trying to defend a lie.
Bob said
This is from an outsider looking in, I find American politics fascinating. If Palin is looking for a chance at the presidency she is insane. She will be mauled by the other republican candidates for quitting as a governer and the image she portrayed/got labelled as when she was running for VP. It made me chuckle when someone on this site compared her to Maggie Thatcher here in Britain. I was not a big fan of Thatcher but I have to admire her for her education, intelligence and for the lack of a better word “balls”, these are things I have not seen in Palin. Anyway take everything I say with a grain of salt as I am not a resident of the US but the future looks fairly grim for the GOP and I am fairly sure Palin will end up presenting on foxnews.
terry said
There is nothing written in stone that she would run as a Republican…Independent is what I envision…
Bob said
So you think Palin could win the presidency through an independant party?
terry said
Not in 2012, but possibly in 2016.
GarthD said
As a fiscal conservative she could not run as a Republican as they are almost as free spending as the Democrats.
Kathy said
I agree, I expect her to leave the R party.
PeterB in Indianapolis said
I tend to actually agree with Bob that Palin would have no chance of actually being elected President. I could see her winning an election for the House or the Senate, but I don’t think that her “wild popularity” could overcome all of her perceived negatives in a Presidential run.
v. Holland said
I personally love Sarah Palin and I would love to see her as a Senator or in the House but right now she doesn’t have enough experience to be President anymore than our current President does.
Vinnster said
The Left understands Palin is their most dangerous enemy…and she is and she will be. I look forward to watching them continue to go berserk every time she smiles.
Ray Hawkins said
No – I’d be more concerned with a Newt than a Sarah.
Just A Citizen said
Why? Newt has pretty much jumped onto your boat and left the rest of us to drift.
Perhaps you had better start studying actual goings on rather than listening to the political clap trap on the TV and internet.
D13 said
JAC…what is wrong with Newt applying democratic tactics? There are many democrats in Repub clothing….why not the other way around? When in the gutter with the rats…become a rat and fight back that way.
D13
Just A Citizen said
I think he has become one of the rats. Perhaps he was all along.
I actually supported him at one time and have followed him very closely.
I will not support him again.
I think the support he currently has from right of center indicates a problem for those of us who trully want to fix this mess. It shows they are still vulnerable to magicians.
It is not the tactics I am concerned about. It is his stated values and how he has been performing these past few years.
Ray is smart to fear him, and we would be also.
Now I am guessing that may change the topic a little.
JAC
Kathy said
You echo my thoughts on Newt. I still sometimes want to have him step out and lead…..
Just A Citizen said
We must all fight temptation at times in our lives.
Now is the time to fight very, very hard.
A round of smiles for you today.
JAC
GarthD said
Not sure rat is right but I think his name says it all.
Newt: any of various small salamanders that can live both on land and in water
My experience has shown slippery and fast to be two of their qualities
Just A Citizen said
And in my part of the world we have one that is on the Endangered Species List.
A place I where I would like to include the names of all existing elected officials in Wash. D.C..
D13 said
Add to the endangered species list…statesman…oops….add that to the extinct list.
Newt is to be watched and closely. I have changed opinions on him some but still watching. Deeds speak everything….so D13 is watching…watching…watching…zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Ray Hawkins said
“Perhaps you had better start studying actual goings on rather than listening to the political clap trap on the TV and internet.”
Okay JAC (or whatever your actual name is) – you get your head out of your ass and I’ll get my head out of mine. Newt is clearing trying to re-position himself for another conservative-masked-as-populist movement. And yes – I study this shit vociferously.
Alan F. said
Ray you read your own writings? You are getting more and more personal every round with attacks. Cool down some as you are certainly much more effective and enjoyable when not doing such. Anxiously awaiting attacks on race/religion/location/academic record/hair color/favored color/pet’s name/paper or plastic/nose hairs trimmed or plucked…
Ray Hawkins said
I typically do not start but will finish. I get it that Palin is your Obama – Ihre eigene medizin zu schmecken ist nicht angenehm
Alan F. said
My Obama? Now that’s hysterical. My dog in this hunt carries the name “call em all or not at all”. I think she got dumped on big-time during the election and the barrage continues. Name an Iranian zealot or genocidal dictator from Darfur who gets more bad press than Sarah Palin?
I like Harry Reid for being himself in spite of past “polls” and I don’t need to agree with everything he stands for, that make him my John McCain too? I like the new kid Jason Chaffetz as he’s been on the ball and hit the ground running. Very impressed by his being exactly the man he first presented himself to be and is likely “my Obama” if I need one in American politics. Government that actually works is mechanics not theater arts. I think he gets it.
D13 said
Smart man, Ray…smart man.
FrankC said
Whoooo — How did Newt get into this? What did he do that makes you say these things? Is this a reference to previous discussions?
Here are a few links re: palin that I found (thanks to gmail and not deleting stuff) In retrospect – I don’t recall reading/hearing much about these points –
http://hiphoprepublican.com/feature/2009/06/11/the-irrational-hatred-of-sarah-palin-leette-eaton-white/comment-page-1/#comment-4898
Sarah Palin’s a Brainiac
The former editor in chief of Ms. magazine (and a Democrat) on what she learned on a campaign plane with the would-be VP.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-27/sarah-palins-a-brainiac/
And then
This Jew for McCain
By Lori Lowenthal Marcus
: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/this_jew_for_mccain.html at October 29,
As I said on air, Obama’s pastor scares me a whole lot more than anything Sarah Palin has ever said or done.
So this Jewish pro-choice Democrat is going to vote for McCain/Palin because they know who are our friends and who are our enemies. And they are prepared to do what is needed to each.
—
This was an email fwd;;
Sent: 8/30/2008 1:50:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: thoughts on the 2008 election from a Palin fan
Seems i am one of the few out there that knew about Gov. Palin ,and have been following her with some interest, since she kicked murkowskis butt out of office.
Let’s concede at the outset that John McCain and Joe Biden are two crusty, vintage Washington insiders. Which brings us to the match up between Barack Obama and Sara Palin. Let’s put it in technical terms–Barack is screwed.
Want to talk experience? Palin may come from a small state in terms of population,but it is the largest state in the union,and she actually has carried out the task of governing. She has developed and presented budgets. She has appointed senior government officials. Fact is that she has more executive experience as a Mayor and a Governor than Obama, Biden, and McCain combined. She has actually spent time in Europe and the middle east, as a Governor visiting troops she commanded(as Commander of the Alaska National Guard) from her state,who had been wounded in Iraq.
Barack? He was so busy running for the Presidency that he had no time to hold a single hearing( of the only council he chairs) on NATO and its challenges in Afghanistan.
How about character? That’s where she absolutely destroys Barky. Why?
She does not come from a dysfunctional family. She was not shopped around as a child by a hippy mother who hooked up with a parade of guys only to be dumped with her grandparents.
She is not afraid to release her birth certificate or her medical records.
She does not have an unexplained trip to Pakistan.
She does not feel compelled to lie about her background and upbringing (Barack’s nonsense that he was raised by a single mother is a case in point).
She does not have a background of interfacing with nefarious characters such as Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn(in whose house Barky started his first political campaign), Rev ” Goddamn America ” Wright, and real estate snake oil man Resko.
.
She not only talks about values, but she lives them. Barack preaches about the need to “care for the least of these my brethern”( ”I am my brothers keeper”) but then ignores the plight of his own flesh and blood brother who lives in a mud hut in Kenya.Perhaps Barky should send his bro a twenty spot , thereby doubling his yearly salary!
Palin says she is pro-life. She gets pregnant and discovers she is carrying an infant with Down’s Syndrome. What does she do? She carries the baby to term and brings a new life to the world. I don’t care so much what she says, I want to know what she does.
This bit from the Wikipedia entry gives us some insight into the kind of person she is:
Governor Murkowski appointed Palin ETHICS COMMISSIONER of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,[10] where she served from 2003 to 2004 until resigning in protest over what she called the “lack of ethics” of fellow Alaskan Republican leaders, who igno red her whistleblowing complaints of legal violations and conflicts of interest.[11][3] After she resigned, she exposed the state Republican Party’s chairman, Randy Ruedrich, one of her fellow Oil & Gas commissioners, who was accused of doing work for the party on public time, and supplying a lobbyist with a sensitive e-mail.[12] Palin filed formal complaints against both Ruedrich and former Alaska Attorney General Gregg Renkes, who both resigned; Ruedrich paid a record $12,000 fine.[3]
Additionally , her very first act as Governor was to sell the Governors private jet, and return the money to the people of Alaska.Her approval rating is the highest (80%) of any Governor in America
So, she takes on the Oil and Gas industry and her own party? Give me one example where Barack Obama ever did anything like that. Just one!! .All those women that Barky SLlGHTED by not doing the obvious thing of choosing Hillary (who in fact had more votes ,as well as having won all of the biggest states), are really going to take a good look at Palin, and will like what they see.
Strange, that the very same people of the party that hemmed and hawed, and howled and cried,had numerous episodes of gnashing at the teeth ,and severe heart palpitations, and to this day STILL LAMENT the fact that in the 2000 election , gore got more votes than Bush, are all now completely, indeed, almost utterly silent …wheres the outrage?(a 1996 Bob Dole question)……the silence is deafening…
….A young party hack and an old party hack, versus a maverick and reformer (who by the way is one of the only politicians to not take a single earmark for his state) and a young kick ass reformer and maverick…….Who really represents” CHANGE”?
Palin will be surrounded by sharp , intelligent ,can- do people, just as she was in Alaska..No need to worry if she can do the Job,should Mccain kick the bucket.
Strange also that Harry Truman (CVN-75) was not mentioned in the dem convention…I suppose because the mere mention of his name conjures up images of MUSHROOM CLOUDS,(a sure heart attack inducing subject for the party controlling leftists). Additionally , Truman FREELY ADMITTED that he was UNQUALIFIED TO BE CIC, and had met with President FDR ,EXACTLY ONCE before20the election ,and once while FDR was in office..
History shows Truman’s ”inexperience ” to be a moot point , since the man had the CHARACTER to rise to the occasion. I should point out that Truman’s approval rating when he left office was 6 points lower than the man the left affectionately calls, Smirky- mcchimp bush/ hitler ,and 15 points higher than present day congress.
Barky’s people are really scurrying for ideas because they were all prepared for months with shit to fling at Romney or Hucklebee, and this caught them flat footed..Brilliant move for Mcain ,but not without risks..But playing it safe, only gets you a welfare check………….
….For all you anti-war/ no matter what types out there- Albert Einstein once said ‘as long as there are men, there will be always be war”…. Something to ponder then ,what would happen, with a woman in charge…………….Nov. 2008, may the best WOMAN win!
Just A Citizen said
I find all this Palin bashing as shallow for the most part. I also find that much of the popularity she has to be shallow as well.
Palin was elected governor by the people of Alaska. She broke up the good ol’ boy political powers of the Repub. party in the state. They went after her with vengence. Yet she did some good for the state, especially with the pipeline deal. Bottom line, Alaskans were happy with her performance. Then comes a nomination for Veep. Now suddenly she is a dishonest, lazy, ignorant, incompetent……you get the idea. Most of the accusations made against her would require personal acqaintance with her, which non of her critics have. That includes you Ray. While you have some good points about her experience and skill on the national scene, your criticizms of her performance in Alaska don’t match with what Alaskans think.
Ray above, and others, keep putting her with the “far right”. While I have heard her state her oppostion to abortion and gay marriage I have never heard her say she would support Federal laws or an amendment to make either illegal. Yet that is the position of those we call “far right”. So those who view themselves as Republicans and Conservatives declare that 70% of them would vote for Palin for President in 2012. Despite her obvious flaws as a big league politician, today. And the fact she has not openly stated she actually supports their cause.
Ray’s comment of yesterday, or the day before, was right on in regards to conern over popularity’s effect on election results. I think much of Palin’s national popularity is that she is “one of us”, “is not one of the establishment”, “represents change in the status quo”. Of course these are some of the same traits that rocketed Mr. Obama’s popularity.
Perhaps this all stems from a growing distrust and dislike for the entrenched politicians everywhere?
Now I would like to address one of the biggest issues with Palin, regarding the constant legal battles. Much of these have centered around her use of Per Diem to fly her family around and to travel between home and Juneau. First, we all fail to recognize Alaska is a very different place politically as well as geographically. Their laws actually allow the use of govt money for such travel. And the Gov. is not “required” to live in Juneau. Palin has admitted to some mistakes and paid some money back to the state. But the fact she does not live in Juneau is not an issue with anyone in Alaska, except those who have been after her from the get go. My friend who recently moved from there to Anchorage in fact said it was a PIT and many politicians commute because they do not live there. So we in the lower 48 are ticked off because she used State money to fly her family around to state events and such.
So, are we going to apply the same standard to……..lets say………the white house? Seems to me there are 4 Obamas in Russia. Only 1 was elected to represent us there. So will that family pony up 3/4 of the total cost of flying the other 3 there? And by total cost that includes all additional security, logistics, etc. And of course the costs incurred by the Russians to conduct special tours for the children.
Perhaps it is time we start recognizing that our policies regarding travel for govt officials are NOT FAMILY FRIENDLY. If we place so much importance on the family and especially on women being able to climb the ladder, then why do we force them to be separated when doing jobs that require significant travel?
I think what we see here are two examples of modern families trying to do a job they were elected to do while trying to maintain a strong family unit. My heart and support go out to both of them in this regard.
And for the record, I am not a Palin fan as far as the office of President is concerned. She has powerful fundraising ability and I think that is where we will see her focus in the short term. If she tries to run for Senate in some other state she is toast. Bottom line, I don’t know and niether do most of us.
A Great Big Good Morning to Everyone
JAC
Ray Hawkins said
A lot in your post to respond to
“So, are we going to apply the same standard to……..lets say………the white house? Seems to me there are 4 Obamas in Russia. Only 1 was elected to represent us there. So will that family pony up 3/4 of the total cost of flying the other 3 there? And by total cost that includes all additional security, logistics, etc. And of course the costs incurred by the Russians to conduct special tours for the children.”
Would the overall cost of the flight be less if Mom and kids were not on the flight? You’re being petty.
Just A Citizen said
Not at all and your response has revealed your shallow argument one again. Exactly the same standard would apply to both.
And of course you accuse me of being petty without citing the remainder of the comment where I support BOTH of them for taking their family along. Unlike the lefties who are trying to hang her out for taking family along but ARE IN LOVE WITH THE OBAMA FAMILY.
Unlike you, I am consistent. You are a walking and talking contradiction on this whole Palin matter. Small amounts of rationality wrapped up in emotional and unsubstantiated BullDookey.
Your commentary is an extension of the visceral reaction that erupted when she was nominated. Some psychologist will become famous some day explaining this all is a book.
Ray Hawkins said
Rest of my posting was scraped. They are not the same thing – you’re referring to a State visit and a day-to-day business with the same logic – that is where you are being shallow my friend.
D13 said
Can’t go with you on this one, Ray. It is not petty…it is principle. Or, will you respond with “the office of the Presidency carries with it more perks than the office of governor”. (Honestly, I really do not think you will use this comparison.) Pelosi and other members have spent far more money (planes and such) and usurped their authority far more than Palin but no one says anything.
Anyway, I have cataloged you down in the anti Palin side and so be it. great country we have to be able to say these things without getting shot….at least yet.
D13
Ray Hawkins said
Pelosi isn’t trying to do her job from San Fran D13 / JAC – try again guys.
Those that are leading the fight and the battle are in the theater, not physically divorced from it.
terry said
No, she isn’t…but she does use taxpayer dollars to take weekly flights home and she uses the Airforce’s resources like a free taxi. Please do not attempt to defend this person, she is the epitomy of the arrogance in Washington.
Ray Hawkins said
I didn’t bring her up Terry – I thought you guys hated loosely connected analogies? Or – is that only when you don’t agree with them?
terry said
I never said you brought her up…just putting my 2 cents in…She is one that I amittedly dislike intensly…she is a snob and the poster child for what is wrong in Washington.
Todd said
How could anyone take Palin serious in a future election? Whether it is Senate or President?
Won’t the media continue to pick on her so she’ll just end up quitting again?
I don’t think she’ll run for office. She’ll go on the republican speaking tour, be a Fox news contributor, etc. She’ll make lots of money spreading her incoherence, and not have to run for office, or follow pesky ‘ethics’ rules.
For the ethics complains against Palin, I find many if not most of them as petty or stupid. But she is a very polarizing person, and she steps on a lot of toes and doesn’t seem to care who she offends. Those people then get picky and look for ways to bring her down.
An example: at a snow machine race this winter that Todd Palin was in, she shows up dressed in Arctic Cat gear head to toe. Arctic Cat is one of her husband’s sponsors. What’s the big deal? Well, doesn’t it kind of look like she’s endorsing Arctic Cat?
Is this a big deal? Not to me, but how do you think the Ski Doo and Polaris dealers feel about that? When you’re governor, you have to be careful of the image you present. That’s just a fact in today’s world.
Just A Citizen said
Thank you Todd for some calm and essentially unemotional analysis. With the exception of the following: “spreading her incoherence” I think your comments right on.
As for the “incoherence” I think you have not heard her complete speeches during her campaign or subsequent fundraising events. She can speak to the regular folks and she does relate to them. This is association will dwindle by the day as she becomes more of a STAR. Eventually her fans will remain her fans due to their memory but she will move on.
That is if she has a political or stardom future. Right now I think it is just as likely her star will fizzle out in a year.
There are still many unknowns, including her real reason for leaving office. We may never know the true reason as I suspect it may have been more Family related. Just a suspicion and nothing else. And not necessarily bad, just to much family stuff to focus on politics right now.
And that should have been her story and she should have stuck with it. But that shows her lack of political experiene in the “Show”.
Did you notice that the complaints over the Arctic Cat gear did not come from the competition?
Perhaps there is another lesson in this. Alaska passed a very extensive set of “ethics rules” hoping to clean up govt. These rules seem to have provided the avenue for constant harrassment by partisans. I wonder if there is any monetary penalty for bringing legal charges which are later found to be unfounded? If not I see the potential for great abuse in any such system.
Another example of our best of intentions creating unforseen circumstances.
Thanks again Todd for breaking the cycle on this issue.
JAC
v. Holland said
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t a lot of what we say on here about our representatives just going along with the flow, not being willing to “step on those toes”, those toes that keep stabbing the people in the back.
v. Holland said
and why would I not support her just because people are going to continue to attack her, especially if they are attacking her for just that purpose. Whether I support her,will depend on her, not the political attack machine.
FrankC said
JAC – why would you also let Todd get by with using “pesky ‘ethics’ rules”? Another one of the hypocritical slants by liberal folks. That’s a NPR radio type comment. Subtle, drip drip drip of negativity.
Just A Citizen said
Excellant Frank
I missed that one and attacked the use of the rules themselves.
You caught my muffed fly ball before it hit the ground.
Thx
JAC
Alan F. said
Hate to burst your bubble but Cat guys are Cat guys, Polaris guys are Polaris guys, Ski-doo guys are Ski-doo guys and Yamaha guys are traitorous dogs to be run down first time they step off for a pee break.
Alan F. said
Simplified… they don’t give a hoot as their people are just that, their people.
Just A Citizen said
Dude….you’ve been on fire all day.
Take a break before you flame out!!!!!!!!
Has it been cold up your way?
Sure has turned very cool here last couple of days. July 4th was one of the nicest we have ever had but cool has set in now. It used to come before the 4th.
Alan F. said
We finally got rain and indeed summer has been way too cool and cloudy thus far. The crops are looking pretty bad in way too many portions of Saskatchewan. Of note is they’re already crapping bricks at our new bio-diesel plant as the oil seed prices will put them out of production for this cycle and back treading that well worn path to the tax teat.
FrankC said
IDK (I don’t know) if it gets me home on a snowy foggy nite , I could give a heck what it is! Even if is a Rambler ! LOL (my 1st car – Rambler station wagon! ) That’s so bad – its cool !
FrankC said
BTW my snow sled is a cheap AC (artic cat)
JayDickB said
I think she may be sick and tired of all the crap she and her family have had to endure and may want out of politics, at least out of elected office. It’s a lot more fun to be a pundit than an office-holder. She may have concluded that, if this is what elective office is like, I don’t want it.
If she does run for office in 2012, it will be for Senate or House, not president or VP.
JayDickB said
In terms of what I think of her, right now I think she is the mirror of Obama – all form and no substance, but on the other end of the political spectrum.
Black Flag said
Do not underestimate Sarah.
She has a multi-million mail list of people who supported her during her run with McCain.
McCain almost won – and he was saddled with the Bush-horrific legacy.
Without that burden, she is a force to be reckoned with.
Bob said
Black Flag I really don’t see how you can think that Palin has a future in politics now. Any attempted ascent to another office will be picked apart by her opponent, quitting in the middle of a job leaves you quite vulnerable to attack. Also if Palin can’t stand the heat as a governor what will happen if she secures a higher office?
She will be very successful as a conservative pundit but when it comes to holding office again she has shot herself in the foot.
terry said
Only time can tell for sure…we’ll see…
Just A Citizen said
Bob, I would say your conclusions totally depend on what comes out in the next few months to a year.
If it is nothing more and the harrassment continues then look out. It could feed her popularity, even at home. Stranger things have happened in polyticks.
And don’t forget she currently holds 70% of Republicans and somewhere around 12% of Dems and 30% of independents. Cant be sure of exact numbers of Dems and Indep but clearly remember the Rep one.
One thing for absolute sure. Only time will tell.
JAC
Black Flag said
Bob,
You are approaching the field of national politics as a lay person – with reason.
You, therefore, are wrong.
The nature of national politics has nothing to do with the person – it has to do with marketing.
She garnered 48% of the national vote – while suffering a horrific legacy.
That base still exists.
Watch her carefully.
I am not saying she will run.
I am not saying she will win if she does.
I am saying she is a force to be reckoned with.
Bob said
All I see is a woman who was picked as a VP by the GOP to try and get some of those lost Hilary voters, she was ridiculed and mocked not only in the US but internationally (not that it matters to you guys) after those disastrous interviews, outside of the republican base when people think of Palin they think of Tina Fey.
She has then quit her role as governor in mysterious terms, some say it is due to an impending ethics investigation into building contracts mishandling, some say it is because of the media attacks blah blah blah, I really don’t see what she has in store apart from being used by the GOP to go to rallies to drum up support and being a pundit. Time will tell I guess but I am really trying to understand where you guys are coming from when you say she has a future in running for a government position. Who will support her? The GOP is already sharpening its knives and stories from the McCain camp were saying she was an emotional wreck due to postnatal depression during the election campaign. I really don’t see what she is going to do.
Black Flag said
McCain received a total of 59,934,814 (45.7%) popular vote.
That is who will vote for Palin.
Add the ones that left because of Bush.
That is a victory.
Alan F. said
Again with the facts BF? What’s it with you and the facts?
Bob said
What percentage left because of Bush? I also did not think your elections go by the popular vote but by the electoral college system instead, please correct me if I am wrong. Are the other GOP nominations going to give their full support to Palin? How is Palin going to respond to the quesions about her resignation mid term? If she is not going to run under the GOP will she run with an independent party? Which independent party? What are the chances of an independent party going against the republicans and democrats?
I still don’t see it Black Flag, time will tell and everything but if I were a betting man I would not take on Palin’s odds, but you keep the faith there.
Just A Citizen said
Bob:
Its not a matter of FAITH.
You, and some others here, confuse analysis of the situation for support for Palin. I am guessing, not really, that Flag doesn’t give a hoot what Palin does or doesn’t do. Neither do I really.
You asked why he and I, and others, think she is a force. We can’t determine why people think what they do. We can only report the actual situation at this point in time. And given our experience with our political system.
Today, 70% of those claiming to be Republicans say they would vote for her in 2012. That is today. After the resignation and all other garbage. And that is 14% of total vote and its almost a lock. That is better than what Mr. Obama had when he started out.
Politics is a strange thing, like predicting the behavior of a grizzly bear. You will only succeed SOME of the time. Some time you will escape and some times it will eat you alive.
Hope that helps clear things up a bit.
JAC
Bob said
Of course they say they would vote for Palin now because she has been reviled by the evil leftist media, ask the same question in 6 months and you will find that percentage to be much lower.
Yes you have a greater insight into your political system but I have also followed your races very carefully, if Palin has a hard time with the media now just wait till she goes against the other GOP candidates. They will chew her up and spit her out, when it comes to races against other politicians all gloves are off.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080128/banks
Todd said
I saw this article in February 2008 – “America’s Hottest Governor”.
http://www.alaskamagazine.com/images/akpalinnew.pdf
Of course the title caught my eye, and I remember thinking she sounded quite interesting. I never imagined what has happened since then.
When I heard McCain picked her as his VP, I was interested again. But the problem is Sarah Palin wasn’t quite ready for the national spotlight. Just imagine if McCain had picked someone else for VP, and Palin had given a keynote speech at the RNC, very similar to the one she gave (which was very good), but not as the VP candidate. She could have campaigned for the McCain ticket and built up her credibility without being the focus of attention. She could have avoided the MSM interviews where she did not perform well, and most if not all of the controversy of the past year.
In 2-4-6-8 years, she would have been a force to be reckoned with, whether in a Senate, VP, or presidential run.
But she jumped/was pushed into the national spotlight to fast, and now she has a steep hill to climb if she wants to get back into elected office.
Todd said
Even Republican governor candidate’s are unsure if Palin should campaign for them.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/08/gop-candidates-virginia-new-jersey-wary-palin/
terry said
Was she ready for the national spotlight…no. That only feeds to her appeal as being more “normal” than the vast majority of national politicians. No “normal” person would be ready for that light to shine on them. I like her, but vote for her…as with any election, I would consider all alternatives/candidates prior to casting my vote.
The first time I even heard of her was when Glenn Beck had her on his show while he was still with CNN. The things she stood for and did in Alaska resonated with me. I suppose it is one of those first impression things…
Todd said
It seems Levi Johnston has the inside scoop on why Palin resigned!
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/09/levi-johnston-palins-resignation-personal-finances/
RWBoveroux said
I often wish that I could beat the living s**t out of some of the people I support at my job. If someone overhears this, that does not give them a basis to assume that I am a violent person who means harm to some of my problem users.
Levi overhearsa couple of comments from Sarah about finances so he thinks he knows why she resigned. He may be right, but we all know what the word assume means….
RWBoveroux said
Not everything was suppose to be bold. I guess I will have to leave the HTML to the experts.
USWeapon said
USWeapon Topic #2
The New York Times on Monday had a front page article discussing the upcoming federal increase in the minimum wage. The article was posing questions about the timing of the increase and whether it would have a positive or negative impact on an already struggling economy. I tend to think ANYTHING done to work around free market rules is negative.
Should the federal government have any say in setting a federal minimum wage? After all, the pittance that the minimum wage represents currently certainly is not a wage to live on. Is minimum wage just another example of a place where government needs to get out of the way of the free market or is this a necessary requirement to be placed on businesses that have no interest in paying people better?
GarthD said
“Is minimum wage just another example of a place where government needs to get out of the way of the free market or is this a necessary requirement to be placed on businesses that have no interest in paying people better?”
Can someone help me. Where in the constitution does it say that the federal gov has the right to set a minimum wage?
RWBoveroux said
i honestly do not know if the feds should be setting a minimum wage or not. I would tend to state that people will gravitate to the best paying job that they can get.
The real issue that I have with this question is the idea behind it that the business is out to screw the employee. Businesses are around for one reason and one reason only. That reason is to make money for the people who own them. One way that they will be able to accomplish this is if they provide an environment where workers realize they are a part of the solution for the organization not just a disposable commodity. If employers treat their employees as dirt, then they will have unhappy employees, greater turnover, and less productivity. In my 25+ years of working I have realized that most employers are aware of this and will do what they can given economic reality to build such a place.
PeterB in Indianapolis said
The government should not be in the business of setting a “minimum wage”.
First off, it is indeed a “work-around” against free market principles.
Secondly, it is silly to set the minimum wage so low that anyone making that wage would be below the government’s stated “poverty line”, but far too many people would be up in arms if it were set high enough to be a “living wage”.
Thirdly, anyone who wants to avoid paying the minimum wage is already avoiding it by hiring illegal immigrants to do the work. While I agree that there are some jobs that most Americans will not do, I believe that mostly it is because the wages for these $hit jobs are so low. Rather than raise the wages for a crappy job to the point where an American is willing to do it, these employers simply find people that are willing to do the job for minimal pay.
The big problem I have with the whole scenario is that it is a great example of selective law enforcement by the government. In this case, they are choosing not to enforce immigration law, and choosing not to enforce labor law. (Sure, they raid a few places that employ illegals now and again just for show, but for the most part, they let this slide).
If the government can elect to selectively enforce a law, then it isn’t really a law. Therefore, about 99.9% of our laws are illegitimate.
terry said
The Federal Government should be in no way setting minimum wage…or any other wage for that matter. It is a total undermining of the free market…along with about everything else they are currently doing…
Life of Illusion said
Impact will have to be negative, with unemployment rising.
We employ over 85 people, minimum wage has no real effect on our starting pay. We already pay more than min. to attract workers worth hiring. It does make it less likely we will hire inexperienced people, like just out of school, or seasonal.
Alan F. said
Yup any company hiring skills is paying for skills and no where near minimum. Anyone hiring a pair of hands and feet will reduce hours and increase workload to compensate.
D13 said
Funny you should mention this USW. I had a recent interesting conversation with a friend of mine concerning his business is closing 75% of its USA based company and moving it to Puerto Rico. I was very curious to this as I had thought that the Clinton Administration had sunset the tax laws under Section 936 of the Internal Revenue Code, which exempts mainland companies from Federal taxes on income earned in Puerto Rico as long as it remains a commonwealth. Much to my surprise, I found the following:
“Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Democrat of New York, gave the Administration a private warning that proved to be decisive. An abrupt change in tax policy, he told President Clinton, could push Puerto Ricans to vote for statehood — and the enhanced welfare and economic benefits that go with it — before the Senate is prepared to accept the island as a state.”
In addition, I found the following:
“The Administration quietly dropped its original proposal, which was to reduce the Section 936 benefits to companies like Abbott Laboratories and Bristol-Myers Squibb to a tax credit equal to 60 percent of a company’s wages paid in Puerto Rico.
With the help of the Treasury Department, Senators Bradley and David Pryor, Democrat of Arkansas, hammered out the general outlines of the new proposal, which would allow companies operating on the island to choose between two tax credit options.
Under one, the current 100 percent income credits would be reduced to 60 percent in 1994, and reduced by an additional 5 percent each year until 1998. The second would limit tax credits to 95 percent of wages and benefits paid in Puerto Rico, along with depreciation deductions.”
I decided to look further into this and have found that the Obama Administration had the opportunity in the stimulus package to enact and sunset the same provision and chose not to do so. And, though I have found no reference yet but still looking, my friend told me that they are receiving a 92% tax break for going there and Puerto Rico constructed the building for them to move and is also paying relocation expenses. Now, it seems to me, that Savior Obama could have used Veto powers here to fulfill his promise to eliminate off shore tax breaks. This has not occurred and the process is still going on and it is supported by the fact that these companies are going to continue to move. SO…question for all the Obama and progressive movement supporters….do you know how to spell hypocrisy?
Now, to take it further, raising the Federal Minimum Wage, which the Feds should not be in anyway, will give even more incentive to move offshore. Why not, given the fact that the IRS is forgiving 95% of the wages. Exacerbating this further, I found that the proposal, as indicated above, did not sunset at all. There are still 100% tax credits out there to relocate off shore. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU OBAMA. YOU PROMISED.
D13
Murphy's Law said
Wow, D13, well said……you raise the bar for all of us! I can tell that “lazy” is not anywhere in your vocabulary……
Just A Citizen said
I would like to add this little bit to the whole idea of how well such govt interventions work.
First, a few years back when the economy was rolling along the minimum wage jobs,primarily food service, in north Idaho were actually paying more than the min. wage of Idaho or Washington. On the Washington side, where the minimum wage is much higher, they were paying only slightly more. So in booming times the supply/demand of economics was working and the govt had no effect.
But then comes a little slow down. Idaho side wages slip a little but remain above Idaho minimum. Washington side slips and hits the Wash. minimum. Layoffs ensue. Wash. unemployment rate climbs some more. Washington soon has distinction of being in the group of states with a “livable” minimum wage but somehow also the highest unemployment rate. Food service businesses keep cutting and cutting as things get tighter.
Now Idaho side also has to reduce eventually as business slumps. But unemployment still lags behind Washington and Oregon in this industry.
Federal minimum is the base for all. The real minimum is the state’s, if greater. Some states have circumvented the Fed minimum by including tips in the wage calculation. This is supported by the fed as many years ago they were all tied in knots over the fact that waitresses, bus boys and cab drivers were making and keeping money that “belonged to the Govt”. So now this money is given to the employer, taxed as wages and then the remainder is given to the employee as part of the minimum wage, not as an addition.
So the Great White Father took base service jobs where folks could get by and turned them into poverty jobs. Now those productive and uneducated masses can no longer survive without AID from the Great White Father.
Such infinite wisdom is sometimes overwhelming.
JayDickB said
As with other government intrusions into free markets, no overall good will come of this. Oh sure, a few people will get a little more pay. But how many won’t get jobs at all because they must be paid more than they are worth?
But people can’t live on a full-time minimum wage job, right? So what? Is that the standard by which pay should be determined? Teenagers just out of high school don’t have a family to support (or at least shouldn’t), but they need to break into the work force and get some real work experience. But they have no experience, so aren’t worth much to an employer. Require the employer to pay more than they’re worth and guess what. They won’t be hired.
Black Flag said
Setting a minimum wage will increase unemployment.
With the ‘real’ unemployment level sitting around 20% – and the government figure of over 9%, any increase in minimum wage will substantially increase these figures.
Just A Citizen said
I think it is actually around 16.5% as of last month. Are you predicting the July numbers?
By the way, I predicted 15% by the end of June last December. My son, the economist, claimed around 12%.
For those who don’t know why differing numbers, if you add the unemployed and not looking for work anymore and the working part time but looking for full time, you grow from 9.5% to 16%.
Nice to see you awake today.
Card games over?
JAC
Black Flag said
The figure comes from a pundit who included the ‘under’employed and those ‘no longer looking’.
No matter how the cake is cut, its crumbling.
…..
Yes – (sigh).
Almost a rerun of 2005 – pocket K’s – a kid on my right posts a raise – I reraise – table folds to the kid who calls.
Pot: $25,000 his stack about $375,000 – mine $225,000
Flop: K47 rainbow.
Kid goes all in – easy call for me. Trip K’s!
He shows trip 4’s! Smokin’!!!
But of course, this is poker.
There is but one card in the deck that he needs for him to win – the last 4.
Want to guess the river?
Anyway, this year, $11,000 profit. Not my goal, but better than a kick in the groin (though, when that 4 fell – that’s what it felt like
)
Just A Citizen said
Did you make the trip via the course I suggested?
Black Flag said
Ah, family was not willing to attend, so I flew there instead.
PeterB in Indianapolis said
I know that there are great disparities in population, land area, etc. between California and Indiana…
However, I found it highly amusing that the current deficit for the State of California is roughly equal to the 2-year budget for the State of Indiana
terry said
It works out like that when there are way fewer public entitlement programs to support and way fewer illegal aliens to support, not to mention having to expend resources for MJ’s funeral!
Alan F. said
Hey quit knocking their system and pay attention to who made money on their “green shift”. It’s going to be forced upon you soon enough.
GarthD said
Some are happy with how they got into the situation.
My sister has lived very successfully in Calif for more than 50 years and I have never heard her complain about the rampant spending and she is one of those who has produced.
I left over 30 years ago.
Life of Illusion said
Made me wonder just what is she being sued for? First one I found.
Palin is being sued for violating the law by failing to issue the 2007 Juneteenth Proclamation. While the lawsuit is frivolous, it does raise questions about Palin’s views on race, and how they may clash with RNC chairman Michael Steele’s plans to expand the GOP base.
For those of you who don’t know, which included me before I looked it up, Juneteenth, which I know as Freedom Day, is an official holiday in 29 states, that marks the freeing of the last remaining slaves on June 19, 1865. It became an official holiday in Alaska in 2001. The civil rights lawsuit was brought by Jazz musician Gregory Charles Royal who said, “The focus of this action is to hold Governor Palin accountable and to uphold the integrity of our emancipation holiday. Can you imagine the dangerous precedent of public officials deciding which legal holidays they choose to observe when carrying out their ministerial duties?”
Palin’s office called this a clerical error, and part of the relief that Royal is seeking is for Palin to apologize and retroactively issue the proclamation. Royal is also seeking $75,000 for losses to individuals and organizations because the holiday did not occur.
http://www.politicususa.com/en/Sarah-Palin-Lawsuit-Juneteenth
Alan F. said
Only in America.
Life of Illusion said
#2
Defense Fund for Sarah Palin
The frivolous lawsuits by bloggers have caused a necessity for a defense fund to collect money to payoff the debt ($500K) that has mounted for the governor’s legal fees.
An article was written earlier on this blog about Palin and the attack by certain bloggers to bring frivolous lawsuits that demand defense no matter how silly the lawsuits are. The lawsuits have come from bloggers such as Celtic Diva, but the list below gives you an idea of the anti-Palin bloggers that will work against Palin. The blogs below use baseless facts against Palin in the slam- style of Huffington-Post.
These anti-Palin blogggers include: Mudflats, Immoral Minority, Writing Raven, Celtic Diva, Progressive Alaska, Alaska Report, What Do I Know, and Just a Girl From Homer.
The latest frivolous compalint against Palin was for attending the dinner in Evansville,Indiana as follows:
Complaint filed against Palin for Evansville trip
A complaint was filed Wednesday against Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, claiming work with her political action committee violates state ethics laws. The complaint alleges Palin has violated two provisions of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act by misusing her official position and accepting outside employment. end quote
The biggest shame in all of these lawsuits is that the taxpayers pay for these frivolous lawsuits. The legal fees will be taken care of by Palin supporters who contribute to the Defense Fund .
http://helpmejoseph.typepad.com/sarah_palin_tundra/
Life of Illusion said
A one min. video on lawsuits
Life of Illusion said
Public Safety Commissioner dismissal
Main article: Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal
Palin dismissed Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan on July 11, 2008, citing performance-related issues, such as not being “a team player on budgeting issues.”[106] Monegan said that he had resisted persistent pressure from the Governor, her husband, and her staff, including State Attorney General Talis Colberg, to fire Palin’s ex-brother-in-law, state trooper Mike Wooten; Wooten was involved in a child custody battle with Palin’s sister that included an alleged death threat against Palin’s father.[107][108] Monegan stated that he learned an internal investigation had found all but two of the allegations to be unsubstantiated, and Wooten had been disciplined for the others—an illegal moose killing and the tasering of an 11-year-old.[108] He told the Palins that there was nothing he could do because the matter was closed.[109] When contacted by the press for comment, Monegan first acknowledged pressure to fire Wooten but said that he could not be certain that his own firing was connected to that issue;[108] he later asserted that the dispute over Wooten was a major reason for his firing.[110] Palin stated on July 17 that Monegan was not pressured to fire Wooten, nor dismissed for not doing so.[106][109]
Legislative investigation
On August 1, 2008 the Alaska Legislature hired an investigator, Stephen Branchflower, to review the Monegan dismissal. Legislators stated that Palin had the legal authority to fire Monegan, but they wanted to know whether her action had been motivated by anger at Monegan for not firing Wooten.[111][112] The atmosphere was bipartisan and Palin pledged to cooperate.[111][112][113] After she ordered her own internal investigation, Palin stated on August 13 that “pressure could have been perceived to exist, although I have only now become aware of it.”[114] Palin announced that officials had contacted Monegan or his staff about two dozen times regarding Wooten,[109] that she had only known about some of those contacts, that many of those contacts were appropriate, and that she had not fired Monegan because of Wooten,[115] who remained employed as a state trooper.[116] She placed an aide on paid leave due to one tape-recorded phone conversation that she deemed improper, in which the aide appeared to be acting on her behalf and complained to a trooper that Wooten had not been fired.[117]
Several weeks after the start of what the media referred to as “troopergate”, Palin was chosen as John McCain’s running mate.[112] On September 1, Palin asked the legislature to drop its investigation, saying that the state Personnel Board had jurisdiction over ethics issues.[118] The Personnel Board’s three members were first appointed by Palin’s predecessor, and Palin reappointed one member in 2008.[119] On September 19, the Governor’s husband and several state employees refused to honor subpoenas, the validity of which were disputed by Talis Colberg, Palin’s appointee as Alaska’s Attorney General.[120] On October 2, a court rejected Colberg’s challenge to the subpoenas,[121] and seven of the witnesses, not including Sarah and Todd Palin, eventually testified.[122]
Branchflower Report
On October 10, 2008, the Alaska Legislative Council unanimously voted to release, without endorsing,[123] the Branchflower Report, in which investigator Stephen Branchflower found that firing Monegan “was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority,” but that Palin abused her power as governor and violated the state’s Executive Branch Ethics Act when her office pressured Monegan to fire Wooten .[124] The report stated that “Governor Palin knowingly permitted a situation to continue where impermissible pressure was placed on several subordinates in order to advance a personal agenda, to wit: to get Trooper Michael Wooten fired.”[125] The report also said that Palin “permitted Todd Palin to use the Governor’s office [...] to continue to contact subordinate state employees in an effort to find some way to get Trooper Wooten fired.”[125][126]
On October 11, Palin’s attorneys responded, condemning the Branchflower Report as “misleading and wrong on the law”;[127] one, Thomas Van Flein, said that it was an attempt to “smear the governor by innuendo.”[128]
State Personnel Board investigation
The State Personnel Board (SPB) reviewed the matter at Palin’s request.[129] On September 15, the Anchorage law firm of Clapp, Peterson, Van Flein, Tiemessen & Thorsness filed arguments of “no probable cause” with the SPB on behalf of Palin.[130][131] The SPB hired independent counsel Timothy Petumenos as an investigator. On October 24, Palin gave three hours of depositions with the Board in St. Louis, Missouri.[132] On November 3, Petumenos found that there was no probable cause to believe Palin or any other state official had violated state ethical standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin
D13 said
Please, LOI, take wikipedia with a dose of salts…it is often misquoting, however, I do not endorse Palin and her motives at all. She is no different than Washington in these matters. What I do like about her, disregarding her power trip, is she appears to be more home spun than most and appears to be, disregarding her power trip, basically honest. (She is, after all, a politician).
I still think she will run for Senate, and much like David Crockett of Tennessee, her home spun approach will probably win her the Senate seat. Time will tell.
D13
Life of Illusion said
D13,
I do not hold wiki in high regard, there is not much info out there on these lawsuits. I would think it would be newsworthy to check up on them by reputable journalist, but what do I know? I see bias in what they don’t report.
D13 said
Well said….
Alan F. said
My wife I just had an enlightening conversation with another couple, old friends we hadn’t seen since they went off playing “keeping up with the Jones’”, whose spending has “just” (I almost laughed aloud) put them into a big big hole. The entire conversation was wrapped around themselves and their kids “deserving” their lifestyle and all the things they’ve done and bought since we used to hang out together. This to me was an unusual event as I rarely waste that much time (while I write on this blog I’m going through my orders for upcoming jobs) on the boo-hoo’s of others but on this occasion I came away with their liberal spending habits ruling the day and the excuses they heaped upon the mound were simply amazing and actually I’ll admit interesting in how far they were willing to reach. The kicker here though occurred at the end of the evening. Knowing we have four daughters we’re financially carrying, knowing we’re helping out my brother during his costly divorce, they hit us up for a sizable loan and in those final moments my wife came to the realization I had foreseen when they phoned us earlier out of the blue, we only thought we knew them.
I would think that today in America a similar thing is taking place. An awakening to those around you being more like you or less than you previously thought. So has this grand alteration of the American economic landscape presented any of you with a similar epiphany?
D13 said
By epiphany, if you mean are there friends out there that have all spent themselves into oblivion and then blame the system and society and Bush for their ills???? Yeppers…they are everywhere. But the most important thing that I am finding, is that these friends and associates are not taking the blame. They feel “entitled” and they feel as if they have been let down by the system. Most also feel that B.O. is going to fix it and do not understand why it is not fixed yet. Welcome to the microwave world of..” I want it and I want it now”…” I am entitled”. They want sympathy but I tell them it is in the dictionary between Sh– and Syphilis. I am also not very nice when I tell them to get off their ass and work two jobs if necessary as they are all filing bankruptcy to get out of debt. I loan no money and will only help family members if in dire “legitimate” (health, emergency type)straits. Not to pay off their WiFi or internet bill or TIVO or all the other nonsense that they could not afford.
D13
Life of Illusion said
Alan,
When I visited the L.A. area a few months back, a local struck up a conversation, went on and on about how bad things were there. Then asked how the economy was for me. Told him things were going pretty well, maybe he should relocate. He looked at me like I started speaking some foreign language, which maybe to him, I did. He and his wife had “bought in” to a lifestyle, and could not picture living differently. At least he didn’t hit me up for a loan.
Met another guy there, he was from Mississippi, retired, traveling a bit. He and his family were doing well, work ethic, don’t spend what you don’t have, etc.. Much better conversation.
D13 said
TOPIC: Where is the incentive to alleviate illegal immigration with the enactment of the higher minimum wages?
Without enforcement of our immigration laws, by not fining the companies that hire illegals, by not closing the apartments that rent to illegals, by not boycotting the car companies that sell to illegals without proof of insurance (yes, it happens all the time), by not not picking up the illegals (men, women, and children), by not shutting the illegals out of our welfare, school, and health system, and by not not criminalizing as felonious, the counterfeiters of false ID’s…….please tell me, as a company, why I would not fire every American citizen and hire an illegal immigrant? With no enforcement…why should I be afraid? Do you think for one minute that a “wetback” (yes, I said it and stand by it and I do not give a tinker’s damn about political correctness)is going to complain to the Feds or State government that they are not receiving minimum wages while in this country illegally? Do you think they would risk deportation by doing this? The going rate for illegals in Texas is $50 per day and lunch and this is a 10 hour day. No overtime pay, no health pay, no social security deductions, no worker’s compensation pay…no cost to the employer except $50 per day and lunch. Such companies do not care if the welfare system picks up the tab because it is then borne by all.
I did not think there could be a bigger dumb ass move that Washington could make. But, there I go again..thinking.
If Atlas has not shrugged yet…it should now.
D13
GarthD said
Atlas will shrug when enough producers have shrugged.
GarthD said
Time again for Operation Wetback (same type of operation has been done twice before in U.S. History):
Operation Wetback
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1 History
2 Operation Wetback in action
Operation Wetback was a 1954 operation by the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) to remove about three million illegal immigrants from the southwestern United States. It focused on Mexican nationals.[1]
[edit] History
Burgeoning numbers of illegal aliens prompted President Dwight D. Eisenhower to appoint his longtime friend, General Joseph Swing, as INS Commissioner. According to Attorney General Herbert Brownell Jr., Eisenhower had a sense of urgency about illegal immigration upon taking office. In a letter to Sen. William Fulbright, Eisenhower quoted a report in The New York Times that said, “The rise in illegal border-crossing by Mexican ‘wetbacks’ (rooted from the watery route taken by the Mexican immigrants across the Rio Grande) to a current rate of more than 1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government.”[2]
The operation was modeled after a program that put pressure on citizens of Mexico to move back to Mexico during the Great Depression because of the bad economic situation in the United States. (See Mexican Repatriation.)
Operation Wetback in action
The effort began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1075 Border Patrol agents, along with state and local police agencies, to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of “Mexican-looking” people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics.[3] 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 immigrants were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 illegal immigrants are claimed to have left voluntarily for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000 to 700,000 had left Texas on their own. To discourage re-entry, buses and trains took many deportees deep within Mexico before releasing them. Tens of thousands more were deported by two chartered ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried them from Port Isabel, Texas, to Veracruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles (800 kilometers) to the south. Some were taken as far as 1,000 miles. Deportation by sea was ended after seven deportees jumped overboard from the Mercurio and drowned, provoking a mutiny which lead to a public outcry in Mexico.[4]
Just A Citizen said
Those sneeking into the US from the north must cross miles upon miles of forest instead of a river. So would these be called “Green Backs”?
Oh, but I forgot. A Alan said before, the “those sneeking” are now headed north, not south. So Canada has become the beneficiary of the “green back” migration out of the U.S.
Thinking, thinking, thinking
OTFLMAO
JAC
D13 said
Oh my…..got to add that to my dictionary of metaphors… “green backs” dual meaning…..not to mention the brutal winters up there. And, perhaps I should no longer use the term wetback….as the river is so low now…”wet ankles” would be more appropriate.
Just A Citizen said
Or perhaps “mud backs”.
Just A Citizen said
Another T shirt idea.
Green backs with legs, arms and hardhats running across the border to Canada.
“I’m a Green Back” proudly adourned on the front and back.
We can sell them to all the US folks working in B.C. and Alberta.
Maybe we can give Alan F. a little commission for running the store?
D13 said
COOL !!!!!
Alan F. said
Just so long as it doesn’t bump me into the next tax bracket. This season ate up the last of my truck and the reno’s on the office.
D13 said
Doesn’t matter Alan, Obama’s tax level will drop to the poverty line soon enough…but that is where we will all be.
Life of Illusion said
Texas Billionaire Pickens Blows Off Plans for Wind Farm
HOUSTON — Plans for the world’s largest wind farm in the Texas Panhandle have been scrapped, energy baron T. Boone Pickens said Tuesday, and he’s looking for a home for 687 giant wind turbines.
Pickens’ company Mesa Power ordered the turbines from General Electric Co. — a $2 billion investment — a little more than a year ago.
In Texas, the problem lies in getting power from the proposed site in the Panhandle to a distribution system, Pickens said in an interview with The Associated Press in New York. He’d hoped to build his own transmission lines but he said there were technical problems.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530649,00.html?test=latestnews
My bet is environmentalist blocked him from putting in power lines.
D13 said
LOI….those of us in Texas, very familiar with T Boone….knew this was not going to happen. If you have never been here, the panhandle is so immense and crosses so many acres, it would be impossible to lay the transmission lines and, us Texans, do fight the imminent domain issues here almost at a point of the gun. Example, I, we, a lot of us, put a screeching stop to the Trans Texas Highway from Mexico to Canada because of imminent domain. It was going to be open warfare here.
So, yes, there are “technical problems”.
D13
Just A Citizen said
D13:
My read on Pickens is that he is the Texas version of Trump.
Fair assessment or not?
D13 said
Very fair assessment.
Life of Illusion said
JAC,
Matches my take on him.
Alan F. said
Same here but with less so that air of arrogance and oddly enough better hair.
JayDickB said
Naw, Pickens wants gov’mint money. Why else would he invest in wind energy. It isn’t viable without subsidies as I understand it.
terry said
Besides that, his purchase of the wind turbines from GE puts him on the “good” side of the POTUS…with Mr. Immelt as one of his advisors.
Ellen said
D13-
I will have agree with you on this one. Unless we properly deal with the companies that hire illegal aliens, we are getting no where. Its not just major companies either. My cousins husband in Chicago, has run a successful lawn & garden for years. He started it with nothing, and has grown to have 45 employees. But he has people who will leave his service to hire illegal aliens to do the work. It cost about half. But of course, they have no insurance if something happens. We need to stop everyone from doing this. Otherwise nothing changes.
Black Flag said
Why people are so concerned about other people’s actions that are made free and non-violent always puzzles me.
If your competitor is beating you, it’s your fault, Ellen. It is not the fault of the man feeding his family by his own effort.
You do not complain if some product is shipped to you for half the cost of another – you love it!
Yet, when the same is chosen by your (ex)customers, you are livid!
No sense of contradiction?
FrankC said
So you’re saying its okay not to obey the law? Or is this only when applicable to migrant workers?
Black Flag said
Yes, it is okay to disobey laws that inflict violence on non-violent people.
People who work, voluntarily in peace, are no harm to you.
Making a law that makes it illegal to work will be applied to you and you will not be able to work without a license from government.
Take great care making laws against innocent people.
D13 said
I am sorry BF…illegal immigrants are not innocent here feeding there families. Why don’t I send them to your yard and YOU feed them. They are breaking our law. In my post, I did not only say something about the illegals but I also said take out the companies and the apartments and whatever that support it. I am sorry but they need to stay home and I have zero sympathy for them. Follow our laws or change them. In the meantime, enforce them.
D13
Murphy's Law said
BF,
You said: “Making a law that makes it illegal to work will be applied to you and you will not be able to work without a license from government.”
A license from government? How about citizenship? Or at least coming here legally? Legal immigrants are the innocent ones, not the illegal immigrants. Sure we should take care making laws against the innocent, but illegals are not innocent- they are……..oh, what’s the word? Oh, yeah………illegal.
Hey, how’s this- a checkbox on our income tax forms that asks if the taxpayer is willing for all the illegal immigrants to stay here- all those who check it then have an additional tax on their income to pay for the medical care, education (including college), food stamps, etc, etc, etc. to support the illegals who don’t pay their own taxes. Those who don’t check the box would not have the additional tax. And of course, if the numbers of illegals continue to go up, that tax could easily be increased. That way, those who wish for them to stay would get to help out these “innocent” people…..
Black Flag said
See #20
Life of Illusion said
Flag,
Illegal aliens being exploited here in the US should not concern her?
Where was that sweatshop where they were kept prisoner? While I don’t agree with all our laws, I do feel refusing to enforce them on illegal aliens is a big problem. They use our emergency rooms free of charge, so we pay their cost, and don’t even pay taxes. Not as simple an issue as you portray.
Black Flag said
Exploited? They are feeding their families! Hardly “exploitation”!
If they are being forced by threat of violence, than, yes, that is evil.
But that is not your argument, right?
It is simple, LoI.
The problem is not ‘free’ medicine – the problem is being taxed.
FrankC said
The problem is not ‘free’ medicine – the problem is being taxed.
Yup – the FairTax may be an unintended solution to some of the issues with illegal migrant workers.
Illegal workers are unfair to businesses who follow the law (primarily tax laws, safety regulations, etal)
And as a practical financial issue in CA today – spends an outrageous amount incarcerating illegal immigrants. Wow – when I read it before it was something like $5-600 million a year – just did search – there’s 19,000 inmates @ almost $50k per – that;s almost a billion there !! (at least on paper)
Black Flag said
Illegal workers are unfair to businesses who follow the law (primarily tax laws, safety regulations, etal)
The consequences of following immoral laws may also include suffering personally.
D13 said
Yes, exploited. They come here and our own population exploits them. I see it EVERY day. Again, you feed and clothe and house them. I cannot see your rationale at all. You will have to explain it better than call them “innocents who want to feed their families”. It is MORE than that and you know this. Our own population and locals here are suffering GREATER than these innocents. We do not get free education, free housing, free lunches, free medical, free tuition in colleges. America and Americans come FIRST AND FOREMOST. THAT to me is simple.
D13
Black Flag said
Worry not about what other people get.
Worry about tending your own garden.
FrankC said
Ok grasshoppper
Murphy's Law said
Frank, you made me laugh out loud with that one……thanks…..
Murf
FrankC said
with a smiley !! ;=}
FrankC said
I started to tear up when I read this – only because its so ridiculous – and I somehow sense that miscellaneous, seemingly unassociated issues will destroy our society.
The only reason I can fathom why these benefits are passed for illegals, is that there are more people who really dont want America to be the beacon to the world, thus they want it to become a failure.
The other group are folks who feel guilty about slavery and there is a transference somehow. (that others more eloquent may be able to express)
Life of Illusion said
Reaganomics vs. Obamanomics, by Ann Coulter
Dear Fellow Conservative,
Ann CoulterYou know what really irritates me about liberals? (Besides the fact that they’re spineless little girls in pretty dresses who can’t play rough because it musses up their hair…)
They always think liberalism fixes the problem — even when it was liberalism that caused the problem in the first place!
Case in point, the Financial Meltdown of 2008 (and counting). To hear liberals tell it, it all goes back to Ronald Reagan — who with his seductive “B-actor” charm fooled America into thinking that by slashing taxes, regulation, and government spending we could unleash free enterprise and create a new wave of prosperity.
Sure, liberals concede, that seemed to work for, oh, the better part of three decades, but now we’re paying the price for all that “greed.” The solution? A return to the pre-Reagan policies of Jimmy Carter, LBJ, FDR… Speaking of which, what will victory look like in the “War on Poverty”? When are they going to produce an “exit strategy” from that quagmire?
Unfortunately, the facts — as always when you’re talking about liberal theories — tell a different story. A story in which all the major villains, it turns out, have one thing in common: government.
That’s right. From the “Community Reinvestment Act” that pressured banks into affirmative-action lending, to those “government-sponsored enterprises” Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — who bought up all the resulting subprime loans and repackaged them as “investment grade” securities — the greasy thumb-prints of government were all over this fiasco from beginning to end.
But those, as I say, are facts. And facts have no place in the fantasy world of Democratic policy-makers. Nor does history — true history, that is, as opposed to the public-school propaganda that teaches, for instance, that FDR’s New Deal got us out of the Great Depression, when in reality it only deepened and prolonged it.
I don’t much care for Ann, her name calling and such.(Besides the fact that they’re spineless little girls in pretty dresses who can’t play rough because it musses up their hair…) Reminds me of someone else??? Little help here Ray? LOL
Alan F. said
http://tv.nationalreview.com/uncommonknowledge/
The current interview with Thomas Sowell is a much more informative and fair handed piece.
Judy S. said
I give Sarah Palin the beneifit of doubt for the reasons she gave for resigning. Maybe she just got fed up with all the BS from everybody, and the all the nasty remarks being made about her and her family and the jokes as well. Okay, if you’re a politician, I guess you’re fair game with all the jokes and remarks, but when does it stop. They have been riding her butt since she was put on the ticket with McCain, and it just keeps on going. Maybe she should have told them all to just shut up, and to go about their lives, I don’t know. I like her, and she seems to have a great repore with people, but it appears that there are those who don’t and didn’t like what she had to say about things. She talked from the heart about the issues and what concerned her, but I guess it rubbed others the wrong way, must not have gone with their venue about the way they saw issues and what they said they would do. Whatever she decides to do in the future, I wish her and her family all the best.
Life of Illusion said
Alan, Bob,
Its interesting there are conflicting reports on this. I would think that it could be proven one way or another. I am outraged with you Alan, over Canada
taking our oil. I hold you personally responsible.
Will you be going after Gull Island next? Or maybe the Destin FL natural gas field shell found?
Have you ever heard of Gull Island near Prudhoe Bay, Alaska? I hadn’t until I started digging more in to this whole oil crisis. Well, apparently, there is a drilled and capped well that taps in to enough oil that could make us energy independent TODAY!
http://thebobofiles.com/?p=173
Just A Citizen said
LOI
There was a video posted on this site some time back of the “Chaplain” giving a speech on this subject. In that speech he names those present in the room when the Companies were told to shut er’ down.
Can’t remember who posted it? If it wasn’t BF then it was one of our resident “conspiracy” folks.
OK somebody, step up and post it again.
I wonder what the public’s reaction will be if this is ever proved to be true?
JAC
csm said
jac — is this the video you’re thinking of?
http://www.adn.com/money/story/466869.html
csm said
wrong link — use http://thecommonconservative.com/?p=57
csm said
if it is, take a quick look at this too…
http://www.adn.com/money/story/466869.html
Just A Citizen said
The video wasn’t attached but that is OK.
I hadn’t seen the ADN articles debunking Mr. Williams’ claims.
I had already wondered if lateral drilling methods wouldn’t have already tapped the field given the amount of surrounding development.
As is the nature of these things, there is probably some truth mixed with misinterpretation mixed with mistrust of our govt. A toxic recipie.
Thanks for the links. It added to the story for me.
JAC
Kathy said
Here’s the link I watched – it is long but riveting:
http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html
Life of Illusion said
The Destin Dome lies 25 miles south of Pensacola, Florida. It contains more than three trillion cubic feet of much needed dry natural gas. Chevron acquired leases at Destin Dome in 1984 during the Reagan administration.
http://kevincolby.com/2008/07/15/do-you-know-what-the-destin-dome-is/
GarthD said
On TV yesterday, T. Boone Pickens said “we have 2000 Trillion cubic feet of natural gas”
Life of Illusion said
I have been told by a former oil field worker that there are many capped wellheads in Texas. Seeing the Destin Dome and Gull Island stories makes you wonder.
Alan F. said
An actual oil company like Suncor Energy is drilling there or the Cuban government is using a drilling service like Perbercan? We’ve been in the front of directional drilling tech here for quite some time and as the poster child for socialism-lite, more than willing to work apparently with any of the hard core socialist countries. Likely another piece of the Trudeau legacy. Sorry about that.
A friend of mine’s son has done such for years but has been contracted the last 2 years to the Russian oil fields. I’ll ask Dwayne about Cuba next chance I get. We have a lot of cutting edge gas, oil and mining tech developed here of which we seem to be exporting to any unsavory country with a buck. Our capitalist leanings might be the driving force behind Canadian industry but our socialist acceptance allows us to do business with nearly anyone. Damned that sucks to admit.
Life of Illusion said
Alan, I forgive you. Would you consider going ahead and drilling of the California coast for us as well, and then sell it to us please?
You can even put a windfall profit tax in to pay healthcare costs.
Alan F. said
We’ve already trained the migratory whales to be our covert delivery system for spare parts. All we’ll ask in return is that Perez Hilton is restricted to movement within the continental US only, that you never recognize French as your second official language and that you quit making fun of Canadian Football… ok you can still make fun of our version of your game.
Life of Illusion said
Alan, I am sorry, the Perez Hilton issue is a deal breaker. Will seek trade agreements with Bob.
EsomHillGazette said
Wait up there Alan. I LIKE your version of our game. They used to show it down here. But I haven’t seen it for the last few. All I ever see now about it is the results of the Grey Cup.
Life of Illusion said
“I am encouraged that Administrator Jackson agrees that unilateral action by the U.S. will be all cost for no climate gain,” Sen. Inhofe said. “With China and India recently issuing statements of defiant opposition to mandatory emissions controls, acting alone through the job-killing Waxman-Markey bill would impose severe economic burdens on American consumers, businesses, and families, all without any impact on climate.”
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2009/07/08/huge-co2-emissions-disagreement-between-epa-energy-dept-ignored-msm
Life of Illusion said
From 912 Project
By David Morgan
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The top U.S. military officer warned on Tuesday that time is running out for dialogue with Tehran to avoid either a nuclear-armed Iran or a possible military strike against the Islamic Republic.
Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, said it is critical for diplomatic efforts to reach a solution before Iran develops a nuclear weapon or faces an Israeli or U.S. strike to turn back its nuclear program.
“That window is a very narrow window,” Mullen told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank.
“There’s a great deal that certainly depends on the dialogue and the engagement,” he said. “I’m hopeful that that dialogue is productive. I worry about it a great deal if it’s not.”
Mullen noted that some forecasters believe Iran could be as little as a year away from developing a nuclear bomb, adding: “The clock has continued to tick.”
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-40879020090707
Life of Illusion said
One for Bob,
There were up to 8,000 forced marriages reported last year in England, with the Forced Marriage Unit dealing with an 80 percent increase from the previous year. Most of the victims are teenage girls from Pakistan and Bangladesh, with some as young as 13 forced to marry in order to preserve “family honor,” or to allow foreign nationals to emigrate to Britain as a spouse.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3998
Bob said
Yes a terrible situation, a lot of my family are teachers and they have been given training to help spot teenagers being forced into marriage so they can report it to the correct authorities. A lot of the arranged marriages are done behind closed doors, not much can be done about it unless it is reported.
Life of Illusion said
Shows why assimilation is necessary with immigration.
Bob said
Its not that easy, complete assimilation into society would be ideal but as for arranged marriages you have customs that have been practiced by families for centuries, I am not agreeing with it but I do not expect a immigrants to give up their customs in the first or even second generation. Things will change in time though.
JudyS. said
Personally, I don’t think there should be a minimum wage, I mean, who really pays minimum wage anyway? If you apply for a job, the usual starting pay is about $7.50 to $8.00, at least it was when I applied for a jobs a couple years ago. Even here at the lab I work at, the starting pay was $10.00 an hour, it may not seem like much to some, but for me it was more than I was making before, which was nothing an hour. Well, I take that back, I did work for Long’s for a while there, until I quit. I say, why do we need the federal government to decide the minimum wage, and why not just leave that to the employers to decide on what to pay their employees.? That’s my thoughts about this topic.
Life of Illusion said
Some John (Stossel) says;
Paul Krugman misleads, as he often does, in today’s New York Times:
“Universal health insurance should be eminently affordable. After all, every other advanced country offers universal coverage, while spending much less on health care than we do. For example, the French health care system covers everyone, offers excellent care and costs barely more than half as much per person as our system.”
But the French freeload off American innovation! Can you name any new drugs or medical devices that are invented in France? Nearly all the world’s innovation comes from the relatively profit-driven American system. If we relied on government healthcare, the world would still be getting 1950’s quality care.
Also, it is by no means clear that the French get “excellent” care. When you account for “Fatal Injury” rates (mostly car accidents and murder), US life expectancy is higher than in nearly every other industrialized nation, including France. And this doesn’t even account for the fact that Americans are four times as likely to be obese.
What sounds at first like a daunting prospect — extending coverage to most or all of the 45 million people in America without health insurance — should, in the end, add only a few percent to our overall national health bill.
Adding a few percent is okay? What about the fact that Medicare is already trillions of dollars in the red? We need to cut, not add.
Employers would also have to chip in, with all firms employing more than 25 people required to offer their workers insurance or pay a penalty.
Chip in? That sounds voluntary. Paul, do you not see that such rules have nasty consequences? What boss employing 25 workers will ever want to hire one more?
The “centrist” senators, most of them Democrats, who have been holding up reform can no longer claim either that universal coverage is unaffordable or that it won’t work.
Sure they can. They’ve been to the post office and the motor vehicles department. They’ve seen the waste and coming bankruptcy of Medicare and Medicaid. They are wise to be skeptical of the schemes of the self-anointed.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/2009/07/healthcare-from-dr-krugman.html
Kathy said
That John Stossel better look out or he will lose his job at the All Barack Channel…….
Life of Illusion said
They silenced him during the Obama health special. He had a show ready to air. I think that’s why they offed MJ, started the smoke and mirrors.
Alan F. said
Strange, I said the exact same thing off handed to my wife upon seeing the idiot box ablaze with so much news of Michael Jackson’s death and Sarah Palin’s quitting… “In need of another distraction but for what this time?”
EsomHillGazette said
When all the pizaaz runs out of MJ kickin’ the bucket, I wonder what our next distraction will be?
Life of Illusion said
Esom,
A very good question. Chairman of Joint Chiefs says the “window” is closing to act
on Iran nuclear issue, diplomatically or militarily. N.Korea may have attacked US gov. offices computers.
Sorry, hit and run post, its beer 30 time.
JayDickB said
Rationing anyone? That’s the only way for big cost reductions and that’s what the Dems want to do, make everyone’s lives dependent on government decisions.
Bob said
I shamelessly stole this from another forum I visit, its a fun but long read:
There have been a lot of debates and discussions recently, both on this forum and in other venues, about the state of healthcare. Looking at the rising costs of health insurance, and at the growing numbers of the uninsured, many are calling for government intervention, and the institution of a system where care is guaranteed to all – usually described as “universal” healthcare. It’s a fascinating topic – the issues involved include humanitarian, financial and ideological ones. Unfortunately, debate on the subject is characterised by a startling phenomenon: one side is right, and the other is completely wrong.
Given the importance of medicine, I feel that it would be useful to clarify this issue. I will explain clearly, and with evidence, why it is that universal healthcare of any sort would be better than the current system in every significant way. If you find yourself disagreeing with this assertion, I ask that you read on before replying, as all conceivable objections will be addressed and resolved.
Why The Current Situation Is Bad
At the moment, healthcare in America is provided mostly by private entities, who charge high fees. These fees can be attributed largely due to the difficulty and expense of the medical profession, and although they are significantly higher than those of similar nations this difference is only a small portion of healthcare costs. There then exists the health insurance industry, a loose network of corporations that charge individuals or organisations premiums and will pay for their health costs if any are incurred.
Unfortunately, this system has enormous problems. As of 2006, 44.8 million people in America do not have health insurance. Many are unable to afford it, many are denied coverage by insurers who believe that as customers they will not be economical, and others choose not to purchase it. Without health insurance, the up-front costs of health care are impossible for most people to afford. In fact, 50.35% of all bankruptcies were caused, at least in part, by medical fees. In 2001, this was 2,038,549 bankruptcies.
Furthermore, health insurance does not fully cover medical expenses. Different insurers and different plans have many exemptions, co-pays, threshholds and other expense-minimising devices. As a result, 62% of those two million bankruptcies occurred despite the debtors having health insurance coverage for the duration of their illness.
As well as failing to provide care, and driving individuals into bankruptcy, the existing system is also exorbitantly expensive. Health care spending is now 15% of U.S. GDP – the highest in the world. The costs to businesses, who commonly pay premiums for their employees in lieu of salary, rose by 13.9% in 2003. The annual cost increase has been above inflation since at least 1981. Paying more doesn’t result in more value, either – obesity, diabetes, and similar disorders are more common in the United States than anywhere else in the developed world, the U.S. is ranked 72nd in overall health, and life expectancy is below that of 41 other countries.
What Is Universal Health Care?
Universal Health Care, or UHC, refers to a wide range of different systems, the common characteristic of which is that a nation’s government guarantees all its citizens access to healthcare. Every developed nation (OECD member) in the world, apart from the United States, has a UHC system. There are three main types:
In a fully public system, there is no or little private healthcare, and the health insurance industry is not a significant one. Medical service providers are government employees, and the education of doctors is also subsidised. The most well known example of a fully public system is the original English NHS, although a private sector is now developing in the U.K. as well.
In an optional public, the government provides the same services, but a private health services industry also exists (generally regulated), and . Sometimes health insurers exist, used by people who prefer private services. This is the most common, and examples include Australia and Sweden.
In a subsidised private system, the government pays for health care, but it is provided by private entities. Either the government acts as a health insurer for the populace, or it pays the fees for private health insurers to do so. This is done in Canada.
For the purposes of discussion, I will be assuming the characteristics of an optional public system, like those used in most of Europe. However, the benefits of UHC apply to all of the above types of organisation.
How UHC Will Improve Things
The single largest problem with healthcare in America is that many people don’t have it. It’s obvious how UHC solves this: by providing it to all citizens directly (or paying for it to be done). By definition, this is no longer a problem under UHC. All developed nations other than the United States make this guarantee to their citizens, and have so far been able to uphold it. The two reasons which make a person uninsurable – insurer decisions and lack of money – will no longer exist.
The second major problem with the current system is its high cost. This can be divided into two parts: individual cost, and government cost – which to the individual shows up as taxation. UHC is inherently cheaper – far cheaper – due to economies of scale, the bargaining position of monopolies with regard to drugs and salaries, reduced administrative costs, and the lack of a profit motive. When it comes to individual health care costs:
According to the World Health Organisation, average American individual spending on healthcare is $3371 per year. Since this includes the uninsured and those covered by their employers, actual costs are higher. For comparison:
Australia: $1017
Canada: $916
Sweden: $532
United Kingdom: $397
The first of those is the second-highest in the world – meaning that Americans pay, not including taxes, more than three times as much as citizens of any other nation. This would be somewhat justifiable if they received better healthcare, but again – 28% have no care at all, life expectancy is below all other developed nations, and general health rating is below all other developed nations.
It is commonly assumed that this difference in cost is because under UHC systems, higher taxes are required to fund the system. Not so. As mentioned, UHC is a great deal cheaper than private healthcare, and as a result America’s health-related taxation is also the highest in the world. According to the OECD, in 2006, American government spending on healthcare was $2887 per person. For comparison:
Australia: $2106
Canada: $2338
Sweden: $2468
United Kingdom: $2372
American healthcare taxes are in fact the highest in the OECD, with France second at $2714. In conclusion, every single UHC system in the world costs less money for individuals, requires lower taxes, and provides better care to more people than the American health care system. By implementing UHC in the U.S., things can only get better.
Frequently Raised Objections
There are many incorrect arguments against the implementation of UHC in the United States. In order to better facilitate discussion, I will explain the errors found in the most common.
“America isn’t Europe!”, or It Won’t Work Here
The argument from American exceptionalism states that what works in Europe will not work in the U.S. It’s said that this is because European nations have more people in less space, resulting in less logistical difficulties, and because European government is more competent.
Firstly, not all developed nations are European. The most obvious example that counteracts the logistical argument is Australia, where there are 20 million people in only slightly less space than America’s 300 million. This does indeed affect prices, as can be seen by comparing Australia to Sweden or the U.K. – but it doesn’t bring them anywhere near the levels currently experienced in America.
The argument that American government is uniquely incompetent, and cannot do things that every other nation in the world can do, is simply nonsense. Not only has America, and American government, achieved many things that other countries have not, America has so many resources and the improvement in care and cost from moving to UHC is so large that even with incredible inefficiencies it would still be a good idea.
“It is immoral to force me to pay for others’ healthcare.”
You are already paying for others’ healthcare. Furthermore, you are paying far more than you would be under UHC. The U.S. government incurs massive costs from paying hospital fees when ER visitors have no money, and from the limited coverage that it provides, which cannot take advantage of economies of scale and which has to subsidise corporate profit.
As demonstrated above, U.S. taxes devoted to healthcare are the highest in the world. Even if you choose not to have health insurance, under the current system, you are still paying more for others’ healthcare than you would be paying for theirs plus your own under UHC.
“This is socialism.”
It is not socialist to recognise that there is a service the free market is inefficient at providing, and to decide it should better be provided by the government. Even the most staunch libertarian admits that there are some services in this category, such as national defence.
Secondly, it is irrelevant whether this is a “socialist” policy; it’s effective. It costs less and provides better care to more people, and as a result is used literally everywhere else in the entire world. Those who want to ensure that society remains ideologically committed to market capitalism need to look for other issues, as if they cling to this one they will only end up providing evidence against their position.
“I don’t want more government bureaucracy.”
UHC will involve much less bureaucracy than is commonly assumed, as it can replace the existing partial systems like Medicare and also the plethora of state-specific programs. Regardless, the lives and money saved are more important than any potential expansion of the state.
“Why don’t we try making the system even more private instead? That might help.”
It might. However, there’s no evidence to suggest it, and many reasons to presume it wouldn’t. By its nature, the less publicly-supported a system, the more people will be unable to purchase health services.
The only potential gain would be reduced costs due to some sort of market mechanism, and in practice this has never occurred; every private healthcare system that has ever existed in world history has proved inefficient and been replaced by public systems, and given the demonstrable gains that have resulted the U.S. must follow.
“Doctors will be paid less.”
They probably will. In nations with UHC, doctors often earn less – for example, U.S. doctors earn 30% more than Canadian doctors – but this isn’t an inherent problem. It is still one of the highest-paying professions in the world, and there are many other ways of attracting skilled people to medicine – such as subsidising their education.
It is sometimes claimed that doctors paid less in a country with UHC will instead go elsewhere where they can be paid more, but once the U.S. has UHC there will not be an elsewhere to go.
“Medical research is funded by the payments of the rich in the current system, and will be reduced.”
It is not true that most medical research is done in the United States. In 2000, U.S. research spending was $46 billion, but European spending was also $43 billion. And although U.S. research spending doubled in the last decade, the funding’s efficacy has actually decreased.
Secondarily, if the option for private healthcare still exists – and there is no reason why it should not – there will still be people choosing to pay more for a higher quality of care, faster service, et cetera. Their profits will still be reinvested in the development of new drugs, equipment and understanding of the human body, as they still are in nations with UHC today. Even in the United States, private spending accounts for only 57% of research spending.
“With the option of private healthcare, the rich will ‘opt out’ and costs will go up.”
This isn’t necessarily true at all; although private healthcare is usually allowed in UHC nations (for good reasons), it doesn’t have to decrease the taxes paid by all to support the public system!
“Other countries fix drug prices, so the US has to pay more for drugs.”
This is another common misconception. U.S. healthcare does not include higher pharmaceutical spending than other countries; it’s around the average or even slightly lower. From the OECD:
Canada: 17.7%
Germany: 15.2%
Iceland: 13.3%
Australia: 13.3%
US: 12.4%
Sweden: 12%
Ireland: 11.6%
In Conclusion
Thank you for reading. To those who were not previously supporters of UHC, I apologise if anything seemed condescending, but there’s no shame in being wrong due to not having all the facts or having been misled. If anyone has questions feel free to ask, and hopefully we can now discuss what sort of UHC system ought to be implemented or how the political will for it can be gathered, rather than being bogged down by misconceptions about its desirability.
Black Flag said
As in all economic things, any product that is artificially priced lower than its real cost will be exhausted.
Certainly, you or any other person can trumpet any reason to force some people to pay for a good or service of another.
You can also create an extensive paper trail of how ‘good’ this is for ‘most people’.
The economic fact is unmoved.
It will bankrupt the nation.
Just A Citizen said
And it will eventually destroy the quality and quantity of Medical Care available.
Bob said
How long will it take to bankrupt the nation? Some countries have been using UHC for several decades.
Black Flag said
Economics can tell you what will happen.
However, it is not a science, like Physics, where you can calculate a cause/effect over a scale of time.
I knew the housing bubble was going to explode. I knew this over 10 years ago. I advise my friends and family to dispose of the property and do not buy – I said this 10 years ago.
For nearly a decade, I looked like a fool while my friends became house rich. Some even called me that.
Today, they are suffering – some quite badly. I can’t even say “I told you so”, because why would I rub salt into a gaping wound of friends in dire need?
The same situation here.
Some nations can muddle along for quite a long time – some, not so long.
Regardless, it will end badly.
Ironically, the ones that were able to muddle along the longest will suffer, in the end, the worse.
Their fall will be from a higher height.
There will be lots of blame, gnashing of teeth, moaning and complaining – and with nearly everyone yelling “Why didn’t anyone tell us?”.
Sadly, the answer will be -”There were, but you were deaf”
Bob said
What is the real cost of health care? Are we talking about drugs, doctors fees, hospital visits?
Just A Citizen said
Stop lumping everything into “health care” and start separating Health from Medical.
Most of the complaints about skyrocketing costs is linked to Medical Care. And many of the stories you here over there are being driven by Political agenda, not necessarily truth.
Medical care does not necessarily promote health. It only prolongs life beyond what would normally happen. That is why it is in such great demand.
The skyrocketing costs are more related to demographics and government intervention in the markets than anything else.
But here is the real kicker, from a Traditional American point of view. The arguments about costs and efficiency and life spans are moot. They have nothing to do with the real issue.
Your Medical Care is provided at the point of a government held gun. Such a system violates my freedom and Liberty.
I don’t care if your system works or not, or any other such system. I am not willing to sacrifice my freedom and liberty for the false security of a govt provided Medical Care system that allows my govt to rob my nieghbors.
And that my dear British Friend is why some of us continue to oppose it with such vehemance, even in the face of the “facts” that you provide.
It is about “Root” or “Foundational” principles, not the cost.
I will actually go on the line and pick a timeframe for failure. All govt provided systems in the much touted “industrialized nations” will fail within 20 years.
Best Wishes To You and Yours
JAC
P.S.: Most of our actual “cost” problems stem from that fact that many of our citizens have become “stupid” when it comes to making rational economic decisions. Of course our govt helps maintain this, along with reducing meaningful choices that could help cut costs.
Bob said
Government held gun? Give me a break think you need to turn down the drama just a tad. Well you can do whatever you like, your health care costs will increase, as more people lose their jobs there will be more uninsured which will lead to more medical caused bankruptcies and further strain on your system.
On what basis do you think all UHC systems are going to fail? How many years is your current system going to last?
Just A Citizen said
I forgot for a minute where you are. OK at the point of a nightstick. When one group gives govt the authority to take property from another group how do they enforce that authority? Its called coersion or violence. No drama required Bob. If you don’t pay they will take it and/or you.
I find it interesting that all the ills you think will cause our system to fail (increased unemployment etc) will somehow not effect a system supported by tax dollars. The same economic rules apply no matter who is playing with the cards. Govt just tries to cheat, thus causing greater problems in the long term.
The collapse will come due to demand exceeding available supply by a large margin. And our current system will fail at the same time because it is essentially tax or govt supported.
Bob said
I really dont understand what you are getting at in that first paragraph.
Yes if everyone was unemployed the system would be ineffective, but our medical care is much cheaper than what is provided in the US so we can last for longer.
The NHS has been running for 61 years, I think its got some legs.
Life of Illusion said
Bob, thank you for sharing, but I’m throwing the BS flag on parts.
that 10 million of the 46 million are non-U.S. citizens and illegal immigrants. He said he estimates the number of uninsured Americans to be about 20 million.
U.S. officials estimate the number of uninsured illegal immigrants at more than 7 million. And some 12 to 13 million — about a fourth of the total uninsured — already qualify for government health care under Medicaid or SCHIP for children but choose not to sign up.
I also do not buy the US ranking, I know the figures are genuine, but other countries do not count stillborn births as a death, where the US counts everything.
Also, it is by no means clear that the French get “excellent” care. When you account for “Fatal Injury” rates (mostly car accidents and murder), US life expectancy is higher than in nearly every other industrialized nation, including France. And this doesn’t even account for the fact that Americans are four times as likely to be obese.
I agree we need to improve our health care, but it should start with tort reform and deporting illegal aliens and see where that leaves us.
Bob said
Well if you cook the statistics and remove murders, car accidents, poor people, fat people, ethnic groups, the uninsured then I am sure your health care is excellent. Can I start removing things that are decremental to my statistics too?
FrankC said
That’s the problem, Bob, you include outrageous issues to make a point, and if people just skim – which is probably the majority, it SOUNDs good
You remove whatever you what.. lol
Just A Citizen said
Bob:
I would like to add by asking this one question.
Why are so many folks OUTSIDE the U.S. of A. writing and discussing about how our medical system is busted and we need to adopt a universal health plan?
Gee whiz, I don’t recall our pundits spending one minute discussing anyone else’s plans except when someone tries to put them on us.
Do you see any strange coincidence in how the cacaphony of talking heads has picked up in Europe once the Obama put the issue on the table for this year? OK, that was two questions.
Perhaps there is much more at play here.
JAC
Bob said
I read on this site and others that UHC means that you have to wait 8 months to see a doctor and when you hit retirement age you are wheeled into a corner to die if you need medical attention. I thought you would like the views of someone who is living in a country with UHC. We are puzzled that is all, you manage to spend far more money per person than us but manage to get worse results.
Black Flag said
Yes, the British system
- because they removed price as a measure of economic value, lost all means of evaluating economic value.
- instead, used ‘wait time’ as a measure of ‘good economic value’.
- wait times are abysmal and getting worse.
Answer: kick people out of the waiting room and make them ‘reenter’ the hospital – restarting their wait time.
Bob said
If anything the wait times have improved, since the crap that the tories pulled in the 90’s, things have greatly improved over the last few years. If you are talking about a couple of busy hospitals I don’t see how it is really fair, do you not have any waiting in any of your ER’s around the country? I have been to the ER for a couple of injuries and I have had to wait 2 hours at the most, I have never been kicked out of hospital, in fact I don’t know anyone who has.
Black Flag said
I work and lived in many countries.
I have health insurance that pays only for the most extreme costs.
I pay my own way otherwise.
When having a need for medical services (and I seem to have quite a few breaks and damage) I have never had to wait. I have cash. I get the front of the line.
Bob said
Go to a hospital in England with a cut finger and see how much money you have to pay to get in before the guy who just cut his hand off. When you go to the ER in America do you just slam a wad of notes on the desk and demand to see a doctor immediately no matter your ailment and those surrounding you?
I have also lived and worked in America and Canada and experienced the medical systems.
Alan F. said
The taxation claimed here regarding Canada is idiotic. Rounding, the 2005 Health care costs were $142 billion for a total population of 32 million and the public paid for 69.6% of that bill which is $3088.50 for every man woman and child in public taxation. The other 30.4% or $1349.00 per person was picked up by corporate taxation. The total per person was $4437.50 per man, woman and child for the year 2005 using data from a presentation created for:
Fiscal Space and the Financing of Universal Health Care Systems in the Americas
PAHO/WHO Regional Workshop, Washington, D.C., November 29-30, 2007
By:
Gregory P. Marchildon, Ph.D.
Canada Research Chair in Public Policy and Economic History
Johnson-Shoyama Graduate School of Public Policy, University of Regina, CANADA
Just A Citizen said
Alan
“The taxation claimed here regarding Canada is idiotic”.
Were you talking about here on this site or in Canada?
And Good Morning my Northern Cousin
JAC
Alan F. said
Bob’s data. Its misses way too much. We pay for our ambulance rides, prescriptions, crutches and much more out of pocket which is outside of the data he presented.
Bob said
I still have my Ontario health card from when I lived in Canada, yes there are things that you still have to pay for but they are usually relatively small payments. I pay £7.20 for prescriptions here in the UK but I can get multiple meds in that prescription.
Alan F. said
I had a 50 mile ambulance run cost me $735.00 last year. My monthly on my own meds is $120.00 and the total monthly for my girls is always another $200.00+. My wife’s father, the year her mother passed away, was over $8,000.00 after his Blue Cross picked up a portion on just ambulance rides alone. His own heart regime was a fiver short of $250.00 every month after another adjustment which I believe was because of his veteran status and age.
The talk of Canada’s Health Care System by outsiders never seems to include these all too expensive details which is why I pipe up on the issue when I see it. Mind you I’m certainly not bitching about it, just being truthful. I have 14 months of my Canadian life spent in hospitals, I and my parents were not awash in uber debt because of my misfortune and life is still very good.
On Unihealth Care my take is:
- Make no mistake, its very expensive.
- Make no mistake, its a life saver in far more ways than the obvious.
- Make no mistake, its worth every penny.
- Make no mistake a paid option for an improved level of service being made available to those who can afford such while maintaining their common coverage would perfect the whole apparatus.
Black Flag said
Yes, it is very good for you when someone else foots the bill, isn’t it?
Hurray for all of us to do that too!
…but that’s the rub, isn’t it.
We all cannot.
The system cannot support it.
So the system has to steal from someone, take their money and spend it on someone else and their family.
Who cares about that poor slob, right?
Yes, you’re getting away with stealing. Good for you.
Your children will hate you for it when they have been driven into abject poverty by your ‘good life’.
Alan F. said
I’ve paid for it several dozen times over BF. Rough calculations put our business’ contributions at well past $300,000.00 in taxes within the last 3 years alone. Let me use just my E&H payments and I’m easily squared up. I’ve paid back my system in spades and left enough to take care of a dozen others like myself. Assume I’m a deadbeat all you want but I’ve too made a fortune from the February market low with just what I had sitting in currencies. Capital gains will nail me again next year but such is life for us social parasites.
Just A Citizen said
Alan:
It was not an accusation that you are a deadbeat. It is an admonishment that you require govt to steal from one to give to another, yet seem to support the concept of freedom and liberty.
That is an inconsistent position.
And good morning to you.
JAC
Amazed1 said
What really irks me about the health care problem? We offer health insurance and pay 100% of the employees cost. But because it will mess with families medicade and our kids insurance some of our employees refuse to take it. Whe the costs got so high and we had so many employees we changed the policy for all new hires and asked them to pay $25 per week on their health insurance….every new employee has turned it down….they want it for free or it will mess up other government hand outs they get. Some of these guys are making 16-17 bucks an hour and will not pay $25 for insurance…..makes me sick.
FrankC said
Amazed1 – UFB – And what is your cost per employee for insurance?
If its what I think it may be, can I come work for you?
Amazed1 said
What is your M.O.S. or as my husband says J.O.B.?
Life of Illusion said
Decided to check in on Congressman Jason Chaffetz, who sleeps on a cot in his office. Not everyone in D.C. has their head up their behind.
Obama Administration’s “Cap and Tax” Proposal: Bishop and Chaffetz Opposed to $3.01 Billion Tax Increase on Utahns
March 26, 2009 4:48 PM
Washington, DC – Data released today by the House Committee on Ways and Means demonstrates that every state in the Union – and every American – will be hit hard by a new and highly regressive “Cap and Trade” tax.
The President’s recently-released budget imposes a $3.01 billion tax on Utahns. On a per capita basis, each Utahn will be hit with $1,115.47 in new taxes on their electricity bill alone. Families will be hit even harder. The data show this new tax will increase the average Utah family’s (3.08 people/household) annual electricity bill by $3,435.65 or by nearly $290 per month. While other energy costs are low as a result of the recession, all energy costs will increase as the Administration increases the velocity of its frontal assault on American energy security.
http://chaffetz.house.gov/2009/03/obama-administrations-cap-and-tax-proposal-bishop-and-chaffetz-opposed-to-301-billion-t
Alan F. said
LOI this kids been impressive since day 1. His using the American Postal Service to do the census in place of ACORN is genius. It’s financially thrifty, uses people neighborhoods are already familiar with and adds a little intervention removing the temptation for ACORN to commit more crimes. How can anyone disagree is beyond me.
Jon-Paul said
On every occasion that I get to stop by and leave a few words I have never failed to compliment US Weapon and those of you who make up this site’s audience. In fact, many times I’ve been every bit as interested in the comments as the feature articles one espouses about. That was until today.
Although I did see one or two comments of merit, nonetheless, the majority of them should be waiting in line for induction to the Hall of Shame. I will ask every one of you who have commented here today and yesterday to make one simple comparison – and as difficult as it may be – be honest!
Before anyone sticks their foot straight into their mouths, please read the following; reflect a bit on it, critically think about it, and try and muster up some kind of reality rather than bashing up some one you don’t know and probably will never know.
“The abuses being perpetrated by our government are just as obvious now as they were then (1776 – Colonial Era), but instead of rising up with a collective voice, we sit idly by and watch as our hard-won freedoms slowly dissolve into a puddle of apathy, political correctness, and outright corruption.
We feel helpless and alone as we hear confusing debates over obscure issues play out on the airwaves daily. But that’s the lie. The infighting and the purposeful division promoted by our political parties is a simple ploy to keep us from uniting. After all, a citizenry that fights among itself over petty differences is too busy to notice the real cause of it problems.”
What do you think? Ring true?
jon-paul
Black Flag said
Is that not my mantra, Jon-Paul?
Just A Citizen said
Actually I disagree with the underlying premise of “The abuses being perpetrated by our government are just as obvious now as they were then (1776 – Colonial Era),”
Part of the dilemna is that they are not as obvious to as many people as they were then. Yes a minority helped start the Revolution. But most citizens were aware. Just not all were willing to split up the family. We now have over 100 years of culturization that has deadened the senses of most. That is a key difference between then and now, and it affects the rest of your statment:
” but instead of rising up with a collective voice, we sit idly by and watch as our hard-won freedoms slowly dissolve into a puddle of apathy, political correctness, and outright corruption.”
Namely, until there is collective understanding of the abuses there will not be a collective voice. Once that understanding is gained, all the petty discussions in the world will not provide a large enough distraction.
Nice to see you stop in again. You should make an effort to do it more often
JAC
Jon-Paul said
Just A Citizen: Loved your reply; however, I think that there is a lot of postulating rather than critical thinking going on. As I wrote the comment out I had two basic premises that are clearly seen and supported by the preceding comments and replies of others.
The two basic premises are in the notions of who, if anyone here, actually knows Sarah Palin? This was the opening of my comment regarding bashing up someone who we will never meet or know…As for me, it is simply a waste of precious time and good form to go about attacking someone who doesn’t deserve it. Whilst I grant you that each is entitled to their own opinions – the second premise of the writing supports the first claim.
I can’t nor would I ever speak for anyone here, but I believe this nation of ours is in bad shape. Anytime we have a government that is more interested in acquisitions and ostensibly hostile takeovers of America’s publically owned companies – moreover, at the expense of the citizenry there is a huge problem. One need only look as far as a trillion here a trillion there rubbish. Have you every bought stock in anything and not received something that supported that ownership such as stock certificates, confirmation advises, and the like?
And finally as long as there is stipulation by special interest groups, (La Raza, Muslims, and ACLU) then what has been lost is not ‘collective’ as much as it is identity. When an individual has lost who or what they are, they indeed have lost that voice which joins in with the collective.