Tuesday Night Open Mic for January 19, 2010

Ah the first week with the new writing schedule has thus far been a nicer pace for me thus far. I was able to participate in the discussions from my Sunday night/Monday morning post at a much higher level, which makes me feel more like I am a part of the discussions. Some good thoughts were put out there on my general lack of liberty post. I realize that there was not a real “topic” there to discuss, but I have to admit that I was surprised that there wasn’t more that people wanted to say! Don’t worry, the topics will get better! I found a couple of articles on the Huffington Post for tonight’s topics. I hope you will all go and read the original articles in their entirety, as they are interesting. We also will welcome a longtime friend to the world of blogging his thoughts and discuss the madness that was a result of the Patriot Act, and wonder when Obama will get around to repealing that abhorrent piece of “legislation”.

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  1. USWeapon Topic #1

    Report: FBI Illegally Collected Phone Records

    The FBI violated the law in collecting thousands of U.S. telephone records during the Bush administration, The Washington Post reported Monday.

    Citing internal memos and interviews, the Post said the FBI invoked nonexistent terrorism emergencies or persuaded phone companies to provide information as it illegally gathered more than 2,000 records between 2002 and 2006.

    The bureau said in 2007 that it had improperly obtained some phone records, and the Justice Department inspector general is expected to release a report this month detailing the extent of the problem.

    FBI general counsel Valerie Caproni told the Post that agents technically violated the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, which was enacted in 1986, by citing nonexistent emergencies to collect records. “We should have stopped those requests from being made that way,” she said.

    Read the rest of the article from Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/19/report-fbi-illegally-collected-phone-records/?test=latestnews

    I am not going to sit and harp on this all day, but I do want to point out that this is exactly the type of stuff that I have been saying would go on since the day that the Patriot Act was passed. For all of those folks who wanted to defend the Patriot Act and George Bush’s promotion of it, I give you exhibit A. This is what happens when you give the federal government broad powers to “protect us.” They abuse those powers and do whatever the heck they want to do in order to further their cause.

    That this occurred during the Bush administration is simply a bonus for me. As it will negate the claim that I am simply overly critical of Obama and his administration. The Patriot Act was an abomination. A vile use of fear to get the America public to go along with a bill that directly infringed on citizen privacy and American freedom. Incidents like this merely prove it. I will add that the Obama administration has thus far continued to keep this in place rather than eliminating it, further proving that campaign rhetoric doesn’t overcome unconstitutional behavior. You have to actually DO something about it, and I mean something other than extending it for another year as he recently did.

    • USW… I was not old enough to participate in the McCarthy ERA but I remember my father having an absolute fit when there was a witch hunt going on for the “dreaded red commies” that were hiding behind every bush. I also remember the out of control FBI under Hoover and the comments from my grandfather and my father concerning same. It is, indeed, a sad thing to have government agencies so large that they are “untouchable”….but they are touchable. The next stop……overhaul the IRS.

      • Agree,

        One problem I have with the government, they never admit they were wrong, burning people alive or shooting a wife and child are “unfortunate events” that will be looked into. Lets all say it together, the system works!

    • And who will go to jail over this? No one.

      Who will lose their job? No one.

      Who will get reprimanded? No one.

      Will it stop? No, it will just get better hidden.

      The genie is out a long time ago.

      • Again, correct…but a question for you. For someone to go to jail over this….requires a governing authority.

        For someone to lose their job over this….requires a governing authority.

        For someone to get reprimanded over this…requires a governing authority.

        For it to stop… requires you and I to take the matter into our own hands…a quasi governing authority.

        The genie is out of the lamp…I agree.

        But since your world would have no government…who is left to jail someone? Fire someone? or reprimand someone?

        Or…did I miss somewhere that a limited government is required in your world. I don’t think I missed it but….I have been wrong before.

        D13

        • D13,

          In our current paradigm, consequences are dealt by the State.

          I’m merely pointing out that there are no consequences.

          In a free society, the question of “wire taping” doesn’t exist except as a crime – and the consequences are swift and measured.

          Limited government would allow wire tap – and the problem would appear as it does today.

    • clay barham says:

      The battle in America between the Old and New World traditions are seen in our two main political parties. The Republican Party is the older of the two if we take it back to Alexander Hamilton, Henry Clay, to Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, Nelson Rockefeller and John McCain. Republicans are elite meddlers believing the national government should manage the industry and affairs of the American People. They stumbled in the 1960’s with Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan. They left the party with people who do not accept original GOP policies.

      The Democrat Party was the libertarian, state’s rights, individual freedom and local government party, following Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe to Jackson and Cleveland. They made the biggest swing from their policies at the turn of the century, adopting the Old World policies of Rousseau and Marx. The GOP, except for the Goldwater-Reagan moments, held fast to their better-than-thou beliefs from its origin. In the life of our Republic, the only political party that held fast to the ideals of America, which made her free and prosperous, was the 19th century Democrat Party. I’m afraid it will take reorienting the GOP to take our country back. claysamerica.com

      • I also posted below, the original Progressive movement blocked attempts to allow blacks the vote.

        http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121617172687056531.html

        The Republican Party is the party of Abraham Lincoln and was established in 1854 to block the expansion of slavery. The Democratic Party was the party of slavery: Its two founders, Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, owned large numbers of slaves, and every party platform before the Civil War defended the institution unequivocally.

        After the war, it was the Republican Party that rammed through the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution over Democratic opposition. Republicans also enacted a series of civil-rights laws that culminated in the Civil Rights Act of 1875, which basically did what the Civil Rights Act of 1964 accomplished.

        Unfortunately, the Supreme Court struck down the Civil Rights Act of 1875, as well as a number of other civil-rights measures enacted by Republicans to protect the freed slaves. In Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), the court gave constitutional cover to segregation, effectively prohibiting federal efforts to tackle racial inequality until Brown v. Board of Education in 1954. And any federal civil-rights laws left on the books were repealed by Democrats once they got control of Congress and the White House in 1893.

        Nevertheless, Republicans continued to make strenuous efforts to aid African-Americans. In 1890, they passed a force bill in the House of Representatives to send federal troops into the South to protect the voting rights of African-Americans. These rights were being violated everywhere in that region by laws, practices and violence perpetrated by the Ku Klux Klan and similar groups allied with the Democratic Party.

        In 1900 (under President McKinley) and again in 1922 (under Harding), Republicans tried to enact an antilynching law. Coolidge asked for legislation again in his 1923 State of the Union message. Unfortunately, Southern Democrats in the Senate routinely filibustered every Republican effort to aid African-Americans.

        • Dale Albrecht says:

          The Republican party of 1792 was one of the original political parties. It was founded by Thomas Jefferson. Its leading principles were the sovereignty if not the out right supremacy of the States without prejudice, however to the limited sovereignty of the Federal government in its own sphere. The party had four presidents, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams and then the party became the Democatic party with Andrew Jackson as its first president. The Whig party was the party that morphed into the Republican “Party of Lincoln”

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      Comments

  2. USWeapon Topic #2

    What is Money?

    Birdman posted an article by some other author about “What is Money”?

    That author is a fine example about how utterly confused most people are about monetary theory.

    The confusion always starts around the definition of money (or the dollar). For many people, money is some mysterious economic ‘thingy’ that exits to help transactions occur.

    This incomplete thinking causes problems – if it exists to just facilitate transactions and trade, why is money still valuable when it is not traded?

    This leads into the attempt of trying to assign an alternative value to money. “See, this piece of paper, called money – used for transactions – isn’t valuable in of itself – it holds value because it represents a piece of gold/silver/claim on taxes, etc.”

    But, when they investigate money even more – they find that in the past it was a measure of some sort of metal – it isn’t any more. So, suddenly they find themselves a drift again – because it doesn’t represent anything other than itself, it is still money!

    Then they really become confused.

    Read the Rest of the Article from Freedom Flies a Black Flag: http://freedomfliesblackflag.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/what-is-money/

    I am not going to offer a lot of comments on this as well. What I wanted to do was introduce anyone who wasn’t already aware of it to the new website of our resident pirate, Black Flag. BF isn’t writing every day or covering as broad a range of topics as we cover here at SUFA. He instead is offering in depth analysis of the areas where he is truly an expert, such as economics. I highly urge everyone to jump over and peruse the site, read what he is writing and join in on the conversations there as well. I have provided a link to his site in the blogroll up there on the right hand side. I think the name will tell you which is his, under the political links.

    With all that he has to offer in terms of information and practical logic, I am very glad to see BF jumping into the world of blogging where we can hopefully get more folks exposed to his knowledge. Whether you agree with him or not, go on over and read, debate, and share the link with friends who want to understand his topics better. We can all agree that he is a pretty smart feller when he wants to be!

  3. USWeapon Topic #3

    “Hope” Has Been a Bust, It’s Time for Hope 2.0

    On the eve of the first anniversary of President Obama’s inauguration, it’s become painfully obvious that elected officials are not going to save us. The 2008 election was all about “Hope.” But Hope is simply not cutting it.

    What we need is Hope 2.0: the realization that our system is too broken to be fixed by politicians, however well intentioned — that change is going to have to come from outside Washington.

    This realization is especially resonant as we celebrate Dr. King, whose life and work demonstrate the vital importance of social movements in bringing about change. Indeed, King showed that no real change can be accomplished without a movement demanding it.

    As Frederick Douglass put it: “Power never concedes anything without a demand; it never has and it never will.”

    Read the rest of the article written by Arriana Huffington at the Huffinton Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/hope-has-been-a-bust-its_b_427314.html

    I have to say that there were parts of this article, written by Arriana herself, that I was in complete agreement on. The idea that when the politicians balk at doing the right thing, the people should go out and organize and force their hand is absolutely dead on. Unfortunately, I read the rest of the article and she seems completely focused on the idea that people should tap in to the empathy of average people and force the government’s hand to “make things right” in the way that Dr. King did with civil rights.

    A couple of problems here. Because Dr. King was doing something that was right. He was fighting unequal treatment for people based on race. What Arriana is hoping for is that she can get the people to rally and force government to legislate things that should not be legislated, such as mandating health care a right, along with many other progressive agenda items. And there is where she is wrong. I agree, government should be forced to bend to the will of the people. I also think that the progressive movement has a long lesson to learn about what is a “right” and what is a “nice to have”. Regardless of what the people think, if it is not in government’s scope, they shouldn’t be legislating it. And the progressive movement is NOT in government’s scope.

    I was baffled though. Because she apparently is all for the people speaking and controlling government. Yet when the majority of Americans say that they don’t want this health care bill, she thinks they should be over-ridden. When the Tea Party movement rose up and spoke about an out of control government, I don’t recall Arriana embracing the will of the people holding government accountable.

    I think what she means to say is that the progressive movement should attempt to create enough of the illusion of a groundswell of people that it will be able to tamp down the will of the American voters. Progressives love the “will of the people” like it is their own children. Until that will of the people doesn’t agree with the progressives. Then somehow that child gets red hair and progressives realize that they are actually the children their spouse had from a previous marriage. Hypocrites indeed.

    • USW…..about three weeks ago, I went to a “progressive party” rally that actually took place here….in Texas. It was held in far North Fort Worth…almost in a suburb called Argyle. It was held at a private residence. About 30 minutes into the meeting, it was halted and the MC asked who drives the “caddy SUV” out front. Fearing that someone had run into me, I immediately stood up and went outside where I was asked to leave the meeting. Since it was held on private property, I really did not have much choice. The reason I was asked to leave was because it was not “my type of meeting” and I had a magnetic US Army sticker on the rear of my car. I saw no weapons and no one was physical but it was clear I was not welcome.

      Since then, I have talked to a couple of friends who claim to be of the “progressive party” and their rhetoric sound a lot like “liberty” and “freedom” and “taking control” of an out of government. They are using all the catch phrases…however, something does not feel right.

      So, I then hear Pelosi and Reid use the term progressive party and now I am going to actually do some in depth investigation. I just thought it was a “label” to mean ultra liberal but I am not so sure now. Not wanting somebody there because they had a US Army sticker on their car….wonder why?

      • I didn’t really understand that progressives meant liberals until reading on this blog. Previously I would have to fall into your couple of friends rhetoric of what I thought it meant.

        • Nate, it does not mean liberal, they would like you to believe it is interchangable but it is not. Classic liberalism would still see this country alone as man’s last great hope not something to be subsumed into a “greater world order”.

      • Happened to catch Beck’s show yesterday and he did a blackboard lesson on what Progressives agenda is. Very interesting twist of the terms to confuse people. But I gotta ask D13, how in the world did you even get an invite to this “party”?

        • I was waiting for this one….they actually ran a pamphlet and passed it out and they passed it out at a political rally for the school board elections in Tarrant County. I just happened to get one and decided to show up. Not many were there….about 25 people is all.

      • D13:

        I know I have said this before but everyone need to read Hayek’s book, The Road to Serfdom. He explains how liberals, communists, fascists and statists change the meaning of words. The word “liberal” used to mean someone for freedom and liberty. Even the word “freedom” and “liberty” were changed. To statists, they argue that you cannot be free until you have economic freedom (housing, food, good job, etc.). Today, the statists can say that they stand for freedom and liberty but their definition of freedom and liberty and not ours.

    • (I agree, government should be forced to bend to the will of the people.

      get the people to rally and force government to legislate things that should not be legislated, such as mandating health care a right, along with many other progressive agenda items. )

      (And there is where she is wrong.) I’m with you here, its hard to understand how a person can say government should be accountable to the people in one breath, and her next statement is government should force people to do something. Is government the servant or master?

      And where does the Progressive mindset, that any means are justified by the ends?

      Progressive Era
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      The Progressive Era in the United States was a period of reform which lasted from the 1880s to the 1920s.[1]

      Responding to the changes brought about by industrialization, [2] the Progressives advocated a wide range of economic, political, social, and moral reforms.[3]

      Purification of politics was a main Progressive goal, with many Progressives trying to expose and undercut political machines and bosses, and
      their attempts at excluding
      illiterates,

      blacks

      and others from the vote, and their push for cutting back on immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe through political devices, such as a literacy test. Many supported prohibition in order to destroy the political power based in saloons. At the same time, woman suffrage was promoted to bring a “purer” female vote into the arena

  4. USWeapon Topic #4

    No Less Lobbying, But Less Disclosure In Obama’s First Year

    Hordes of lobbyists have deregistered in the last two years after Congress enacted more onerous disclosure requirements and the Obama administration put in place a series of anti-lobbyist policies. But that doesn’t mean there’s been less lobbying. In fact, we’ll likely find out this week (when fourth-quarter reports are filed) that the influence industry beat its all-time record for lobbying revenue in 2009.

    We just might not know as much about who lobbied for whom — call it O-pacity in government.

    “This is the consequence of the Obama administration demonizing lobbyists and so the result is more and more deregistration,” said Melanie Sloan, director of watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. “It’s an unsurprising reaction to the administration’s efforts to make lobbying less and less palatable.”

    So pervasive is the trend that among the deregistrants is Ellen Miller, executive director of the Sunlight Foundation, a group that advocates for stricter disclosure requirements and transparency in government. The New York Times prominently featured Miller in a Sunday story about lobbyists going “underground” en masse, apparently to avoid the new rules.

    Read the rest of the article from the Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/19/no-less-lobbying-but-less_n_428340.html

    Another Huffington Post article that points out the effect of Obama’s decision to put “regulation” on the lobbyists in Washington DC. Can you say all after “unintended consequences”? I have to take a moment to point out to all of you who constantly tell me that government regulation is an imperative that this is what happens when the powerful are strapped with “regulation”. They simply find a way to use it to their benefit. The big banks get bigger. Wall Street gets more risky. You see, government cannot create a monster and then claim they are going to control that monster. It is high time that we all begin to realize that government is the monster.

    I will be interested to hear other takes on this, especially from folks like Just a Citizen, who has a vast knowledge of the world of political lobbying.

    • v. Holland says:

      Perhaps someone should create an account for donations to start our own just average American lobbying outfit to lobby for our freedoms-or would that be just giving into the corruption. :)

  5. USWeapon Topic #5

    A Very American Coup: Coming Soon to a Hometown Near You

    The wars in distant lands were always going to come home, but not this way.

    It’s September 2016, year 15 of America’s “Long War” against terror. As weary troops return to the homeland, a bitter reality assails them: despite their sacrifices, America is losing.

    Iraq is increasingly hostile to remaining occupation forces. Afghanistan is a riddle that remains unsolved: its army and police forces are untrustworthy, its government corrupt, and its tribal leaders unsympathetic to the vagaries of U.S. intervention. Since the Obama surge of 2010, a trillion more dollars have been devoted to Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and other countries in the vast shatter zone that is central Asia, without measurable returns; nothing, that is, except the prolongation of America’s Great Recession, now entering its tenth year without a sustained recovery in sight.

    Disillusioned veterans are unable to find decent jobs in a crumbling economy. Scarred by the physical and psychological violence of war, fed up with the happy talk of duplicitous politicians who only speak of shared sacrifices, they begin to organize. Their motto: take America back.

    Read the rest of the article at the Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-astore/a-very-american-coup-comi_b_428656.html

    Perhaps the most interesting article that I read this week. Mr. Astore outlines a future where returning veterans lead the coup that changes America. A situation that I could absolutely see happening. I challenge you to read the first half of this article and tell me that you could not see something like this happening along the lines that the author lays out here.

    My one true issue with the article was that Mr. Astore decided to compare American unhappiness with the current out of control government to the Nazi movement in 1930’s Germany. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I can see the the similarites. I can also see the similarites between Hitler and Obama, but of course that would make me a racist (just ask Keith Olberman, what an ass). But it is a big assumption to say that American unrest would end up with the type of movement the Nazi’s had. I actually think it far more likely that the Obama movement would end up like the Nazi’s than a movement led by America’s veterans. Then again, I have a small bias, and I would get a good appointment in the new administration.

    What I really would like folks to do is to take a second to jump over and read the entire article from Mr. Astore. In the article he gives ten ways that we can stop this horrible coup from happening. I am interested in hearing what people think of the ten different courses of action that he presents. I agreed with some, and not with others.

    I will save my thoughts to respond to what everyone comes up with.

    • Good Morning to you USW,

      My thoughts on the article: More Leftist drivel. Seems to me our author has recently reread the HSA report on Domestic terrorism and had his imagination get away from him. He’s just trying to rally his fellow Leftists, who’ve been less active lately. This tipped me off:

      7. Let’s take Sarah Palin and her followers seriously. They’re tapping into anger that’s real and spreading. Don’t let them become the voices of the angry working (and increasingly unemployed) classes.

      SP’s names is red meat to Leftists. He’s just using fear of conservatives and enemy campers (former military) to scare the complacent Leftists back into action.

      Can I see this happening? Its a long shot. I’m sure our Marxist masters will execute their final power grabs long before 2016. I don’t think dissillusioned vetrans will be the ones taking up arms.

      • Some good thoughts Cyndi. I don’t necessarily believe that this will be the future either. I simply found it interesting that the author chose to use the military as the enemy in this situation. As a veteran I notice those things. As a combat arms veteran who has done the job that few have, I really take notice for a very important reason: I have no doubt that should the Napolitano’s of the world succeed in encouraging folks that returning veterans are a threat to America, we will become targets of what is becoming one of the most corrupt governments in the world. I imagine folks like D13 and myself would be the first folks they want to scratch off the list of threats to them. While I am not looking for any sort of armed conflict, try telling that to crazy Janet.

        This fell into the realm of more fearmongering, specifically in terms of veterans. Those who have never served or known of that service often tend to believe that veterans are a dangerous group anyway, prone to irrational paranoia and rash action. While this could not be further from the truth, that doesn’t stop them from making movies such as this new “Brothers” film that further that propaganda. It is amazing to me how many folks think that 100% of the military fights every day. The reality is that less than 30% of the military fights, the rest are support. And until we got entangled over the last few years, the percentage of those 30% that are in combat arms that have actually seen action in a foreign land was dramatically lower. Yet the myths persist.

        I want public discussion of stuff like this. We need to stop that line of thinking in its tracks. Because if they come for me…. it isn’t going to be a pretty thing. LOL. And I don’t even want to imagine what the bobby traps are like on D13’s property!

        USW

        • What the booby traps on D13’s property are like I can only imagine, but I’m sure he’d have lots of fun with it!

          On a serious note, though, I’m very concerned about what I’m seeing/hearing from the Left. Many times in the last year and a half, I’ve wondered if this is what it felt like to be a thinking middle-class German citizen in the twenties and thirties. I can’t help beut remember that history repeats its self.

          • I always find it interesting when I see “those on the left” being compared to the rise of Nazi Germany. If we recall, a big pillar of Hitler’s campaign was that Germans needed to sacrifice their rights for ‘protection’ against external enemies and a disfavored ethnic/religious group (Jews for Germans, Muslims/Middle Easterners for America) which was plotting from within.

            It always seemed to me that, with the torture, the warrantless wiretaps, the illegal incarcerations, the extraordinary renditions, launching two foreign wars (only one can be justified), crushing of dissent as unpatriotic, fear-mongering about terrorists, the Cheney-Bunker, et cetera, we were far closer under Fuhrer Bush.

            • Mathius,

              All of those things are done under government – what arm band it wears today matters not.

              • We’re not questioning if government is bad. We’re questioning if the treatment of Christians in this country is trending toward a comparable state to the treatment of Jews under Hitler.

      • Cyndi,

        Had similar thoughts, this seems like something I heard about before….

        Days after liberal media representatives blamed conservative talkers for cop killings in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and a week before Tea Party protests will sweep the nation, the Department of Homeland Security issued a report warning that the recession as well as the current political environment could lead to acts of violence from “domestic rightwing terrorists.”

        The unclassified document, titled “Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment,” was posted by Roger Hedgecock and the Liberty Papers Monday (h/t Michelle Malkin).

        Its contents read like the paranoid accusations of liberal bloggers and leftwing shills on MSNBC and elsewhere:

        Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/04/14/department-homeland-security-worried-about-rightwing-extremists#ixzz0dAknZ8fZ

    • Ok USW…I read the article….and the military is the “big nasty”. A smart leader will surround him/herself with whatever should be necessary to give good advice….which means you do not surround yourself with “yes men” or that think like you do. I wanted my staff to be diverse so that I could get all the information that I needed to make rational decisions. It made for spirited staff meetings, but I did not have “yes” men on my staff. Once I made the decision, as was my responsibility to do, those decisions were carried out by the staff in an organized and efficient manner and no one “torpedoed” the other….for if they did, they were fired from my staff immediately and getting fired in the military is serious.

      Now, according to this article, I read where the author fears that the military is disgruntled and upset and will “overthrow” the civilian authority. Well, sir, having grown up and participated in the 60’s and 70’s and seeing and feeling first hand the ostracizing of the veteran….never ONCE did I want to overthrow anything through armed resistance or violence. I went through the hypocrisy of the American sentiment back then…if you went and fought in Vietnam, you were a war monger and a capitalist pig and a baby killer not worthy of employment in the USA. People were scared of the military uniform and we did was fight where we thought we were supposed to fight. So, I debunk his theory in total that the military is an untapped cauldron ready to explode. Bull shit. I never want anyone to see and do the things that I had to do…or live with “ordering” men to die. That is a fate that very few can handle and there is not a day that goes by that I do not remember those times. In Vietnam, in Kuwait, in Bosnia, and in Afghanistan…I have been to all four….Vietnam the worse. That is why I just bite my lip when criticism of military expansion into the world is the fault of the soldier. It is the fault of the “civilian” that sent us. Those of us that have been in combat do NOT want to takeover the world. We know and see and understand the futility of it GREATER than anyone who has not been there. Philosophy, theory, and hyperbole is a great thing but nothing replaces and makes anyone understand human reaction and emotion more than the man that has had to destroy those things. Looking the kids in the eye after blowing up their house and destroying everything they knew….seeing the plight of the displaced civilian that lost his business and half, if not all, his family in a fight that did not concern him. It is something that I pray everyone does not see. BUT…..that does not mean that the soldier quits. He has a job to do albeit nasty at times.

      The author does not dwell on what makes the veteran disillusioned. It is not the war….it is the treatment after the war. It is the warrior thrust back into the “world” after having to destroy it and listen to the dribble put forth by the left….yessir…the LEFT who thinks that the military is a pariah. I do not want to overthrow this government by armed resurrection or revolution. That is not needed….not yet. Some of the military go to mercenary units worldwide…..but I think the left would be interested to know that these “mercs” represent less tha 1% of the military.

      This country does not need to worry about the military….it needs to be more concerned with the civilians in control that wish to use the military. You are not going to see a “rogue” general take over…you need to worry about the Socialist and this progressive movement. Eliminating free trade, taking money that is not theirs, using domestic terrorism as a scare tactic (Napolitano is far far worse than Bush or Cheney ever thought about being), redistribution of wealth and the creation of a dependent non working class, dividing this country along racial lines far worse than what I grew up in in the 60’s, creating class warfare to take control of the country…….is far worse than Bush ever thought about being and I am not a Bush fan….but this administration now is more damaging to this country than ever before.

      Scott Brown got elected on his merits….let us hope that he will do what he says. Watch Texas closely…Debra Medina is gaining strength and has been shunned by Senator Hutchinson and Governor Perry….thinking that she is not mainstream. They are mistaken. This could be the start of something….

      But the article? USW I cannot see where it was correct except in our globalization and military presence across the world. I say….let the world take care of itself. Bring our men and women home…protect us. Let the chips fall where they may….but the military as a disgruntled group? No….that is not the military way.

      As to my booby traps…well, I learned from the best…the people who made them and it was not the US. As to my property….heh heh….they can take their chances.

      D13

      • D13:

        AGREED, 100%.

        I take my hat off and sweep in a deep bowe of respect to the Colonel.

        The dolt who wrote the article seems to forget that many of the Viet vets simply faded away into the woods or other places to be left alone.

        Is Debra Medina YOUR dark horse?

        The best to you this day.
        JAC

        • Wha?????? me???? Support a dark Horse???? little ole, war mongering, baby killing, capitalist pig me????

          Heh heh…..

          I am quite sure she will not make it this time…the political machine is pretty powerful when you combine both dems and repubs….but her once 5% is now 18% in two weeks….a formidable force that could sway a runoff election.

        • Humbled by your generosity and respect D13 says: to further extrapolate on the article. One thing that scares the crap outta people is the brotherhood of the military. It matters not what color your skin is or your beliefs to be…. if a military person is down, black, brown, white, or chartreuse…we will pick him/her up. The fact that in the military family (family = brother/sisterhood) no one is left behind and USW and I do not need a long diatribe to understand. I do not know USW other than this blog… but if he said he needed help, I would be there…no questions asked. We simply know and this pertains to all military on this blog. It matters not the politics.

          I think the fact that it us such a strong bond, scares a lot of people and they do not understand. It is as strong as family.

    • Kristian Stout says:

      The thing that bothered me the most about this article was his obvious hatred for the military and the fact that he just really doesn’t understand the mindset of the men and women who join the service. I don’t know you US but I’d be willing to bet that when you joined the service you joined because you wanted to serve your country, the same for D13 and any other vets here. I know that was why I joined, I wanted to serve. For this person to say that the military wishes for civilians to bow to them tells me that he is woefully ignorant when it comes to our service men and women.

      Mathius, are you just not paying attention or do you really not see what is going on in this country? Christians are the ones being attacked now much as the Jews were in Germany. Does it have to get as bad as that was before anyone sees it?

      • Kristian

        Windage and elevation Kristian, windage and elevation.

        Did you guess the two ex football players in that movie yet?

        Top O’ the day to ya.
        JAC

      • “Mathius, are you just not paying attention or do you really not see what is going on in this country? Christians are the ones being attacked now much as the Jews were in Germany. Does it have to get as bad as that was before anyone sees it?”

        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

        I really, really hope you dont believe that.

        • Have a seat on the SUFA

          Jac: Flag left the window open again!

        • Kristian Stout says:

          I’m glad that you don’t believe that religious persecution is an issue in this day and age. I sincerely hope that you never find yourself in a position where you have to defend your beliefs or be told that you are wrong because you believe differently than the mainstream. I hope that you are never made to feel like a second class citizen because of your faith in something bigger than yourself. I hope, with everything that I am, that I’m wrong.

          • You tried comparing the persecution against the jews in Germany to the persecution(?) against christians in the US. There is a difference between someone saying “I dont believe in God and think Christians are silly” so you get your feelings hurt and having your business initially boycotted and eventually burned to the ground, being rounded up in a ghetto then being sent to a death camp where you are gassed and incinerated. Sorry dont see the comparison I am afraid.

            • Kristian Stout says:

              Yet

              • Yup as you can see Christians are truly in the minority. Be afraid Kristian the 0.6% muslims will be gassing you soon enough.

            • Well Bob, you’re just not getting it either.

              You see, we tell them that this is not a Judeo-Christian country, but rather that it is officially and legally, secular. And that, because of this, they are not allowed to display nativity scenes on public property (though they can do so on private property if they wish), that is exactly like shipping them off to Auschwitz in a cattle car.

              God, Bob, how dense can you be?

          • Let me help you out here:

            I have been told, point blank, that “because [I am] a Jew, [I am] going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity.” and that I need to accept Jesus, or I am by default a “bad person.” In truth, I am only nominally Jewish, but I suspect agnostic would be even worse in their book.

            I have seen polling data that being non-christian (I have to find this survey again) is the third worst thing in America if you want to run for President (4. Lesbian, 3. Jewish/non-christian, 2. Atheist, 1. Male Homosexual). This was just a few years ago.

            I don’t feel obligated to defend my beliefs, nor the lack thereof. But don’t you sit there and tell me that Christians are the ones being attacked. And it takes serious chutzpah to claim it’s like Nazi Germany. Christians are the ones leading the attacks. Everyone’s guilty – everyone, even the Jews – but your side has the power, so where do you get off playing victim?

            • Kristian Stout says:

              You’re talking about organized religions not people of faith and believe me when I tell you there is a big difference. People of faith understand and accept that their’s is not the only faith and that their way is not the only way. I can’t judge you for your beliefs without being judged for mine so I don’t judge. Can you say the same?

              As to claiming that they are the same, isn’t this how the persecution of the Jewish people started? By the government turning what they were into a bad thing through propaganda?

              • Yes, I feel comfortable agreeing that the Germans started out by saying that the Jews were bad and pursuing a deliberate and organized official government propaganda campaign against the Jews and other ‘undesirables’ (though Jews were already generally disliked).

                Show me where this is happening against the Christians of this country (who, as it turns out are the vast majority), and the group in power. You are alleging that those in power will pursue a campaign against themselves and the majority of their constituents?

            • Buck The Wala says:

              Good thing you don’t believe in Hell!

            • I seem to remember religion being an issue.
              Funny the media had such an interest in a
              Mormon running for President.

              Mitt Romney: His Mormon Religious Beliefs Hurt His Bid for President

              Huckabee Hurt, but Didn’t Sink the Ship

              • Hey LOI,

                Looks like our friends won’t listen until Christians are actually being rounded up.

                Hitler didn’t one day just give the direction to round up Jews. Things started small and progressed on. The anti-semitism that was already present was exploited for political and then financial gain. America hasn’t naturally had an anti-Christian sentiment, but it is now being created for political gain.

              • Who is going to be doing the around up? At least 75% of Americans consider themselves Christian.

              • Hey yourself,

                I’m with you here. Should we be making Hitler comparisons? I don’t know, but history does show this is how it starts. If our argument is based on accurate historic record, I would
                think the counter-argument would be in kind.

              • I’m not saying O IS just like Hitler. I’m saying I see similar tactics. What happened in Nazi Germany wasn’t a one-off. Similar regimes have existed throughout history. I’d say its better to be aware of that than to pretend it couldn’t happen again.

                So how’s life in LOI-land? We’ve had a lot of rain the past few days. I wish we’d get a few good days of sun on the days I don’t have to work….
                :)

              • I’m with you on that, its not really O, its the ACLU.

                Hard rain this am.
                Now its damp and cool,
                about 55.

                Been a crappy work week.

                Come on Friday!

        • Thanks Bob!

          I can just see it now.. Christians will be forced to wear large yellow crosses on their clothes at all times.

          60% of the population will be stripped of their property and placed in ghettos.

          Christians will be beaten at random and accused of being part of some master conspiracy to destroy the American people.

          Never mind that the President, Vice President, and vast majorities of both houses, governorships, and local posts are all Christians themselves. Never mind that Romney had to give a speech justifying himself as a true Christian, because Mormon just a little too far afield.

          Get this: You (Christians) are the ones running the show! Just because we (everyone else) are putting some constraints on you (to stop you from running us over) does not mean that you are being “attacked.” Last I checked, there was a Christmas tree in the White House, and opening prayers in Congress and the Supreme Court.

          GAAAAAAAA! Enough already of this victim mentality. Show me evidence of these ‘attacks.’

        • Bob,

          I do think that. A movie with God allowing Angels to attack mankind. I read yesterday about a British flight attendant suing for being prohibited from wearing a cross while working. As bad a Germany, no, but under attack, damn straight!

          an upcoming fantasy-thriller film on the Apocalypse hit the web this past week, presenting movie fans with the question “What if God lost faith in mankind?”

          “The last time God lost faith in man, He sent the flood. This time, He sent angels,” states the archangel Michael,

          Directed by visual effects guru Scott Stewart (“Iron Man,” “Night at the Museum,” “Superman Returns”), “Legion” pits mankind against a horde of the devil’s minions – fallen angels, whom God allows to have their way with humanity after having lost faith in it.

          • Sorry LOI being told not to wear jewellry which is company policy and a fictional movie is not the same as having the members of a religion exterminated.

          • It’s a private company, no? And not in America. And being told that you cannot wear jewelry of a certain type while on the job does not oppression make. I’m sure the company had no problem with her wearing it on their own time.

            And so what about the movie? How is “God is pissed at humans for misbehaving” equivalent to Christians being attacked – wouldn’t this be an attack on all monotheistic religions equally then? And what was “Left Behind” if not an attack on non-Christians (or those who are not Christian enough) by this logic?

            • ABC’s Brian Ross Hyperventilates Over ‘Secret Bible Codes’ on Military Guns

              By Scott Whitlock (Bio | Archive)
              January 19, 2010 – 17:32 ET

              Nightline’s Brian Ross on Monday filed a hyperbolic report on “secret Jesus codes” that are on the sights of rifles used by the U.S. military in Afghanistan. Ross featured two voices highly critical of the fact that Bible versus can be found on these weapons, but no clip of the opposing side. Ross repeated, “Michael Weinstein runs the Military Religious Freedom Foundation which claims thousands of members in the US military who he says are endangered by the secret Bible codes.”

              Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/01/19/abc-s-brian-ross-hyperventilates-over-secret-bible-codes-military-gu#ixzz0dAOhkpI5

              I see a pattern of behavior, such as lawsuits prohibiting the Ten Commandments
              on courthouses, prayer before a football game, striking “under God” from the pledge, etc.

              • Buck The Wala says:

                It is not a pattern of behavior of prohibiting anything Christian. Rather, it is saying that when you have the government involved, the government cannot endorse one religion (or seem to endorse one religion) over any other.

              • Wait a minute wasnt the “under God” bit added in 1954?

                You guys still teaching your kids this as well?

                I may be wrong but wasnt the point of the founding of the US to have the church and state seperated? If that is the case you dont see a problem with the state ordering rifle sights that have Biblical passages on them which are being used to mostly shoot muslims. How do you think this would help the “hearts and minds” strategy?

              • Sorry bad link

              • Bob,

                The “state” or military did not order any religious markings, and did not notice those markings on the sights.
                This was done by the private company for their own reasons.

                You are correct on “under God” being added, but its now historic and traditional. I want my children to say it that way, have no problem if the other kids skip that part, but my kid is the one who will be suspended for saying God
                at school. Freedom of speech does not apply?

              • Buck The Wala says:

                The problem with just leaving it as is and having other children simply ‘skip that part’ is that children are kids, not adults. They are standing in a room with their peers being led in saying the pledge by their teacher, an authoritative figure. Kids will feel compelled to say what the teacher says.

              • Then why did they keep on ordering the sights? How would you feel about the state ordering rifle sights with verses of the Qur’an etched on the side?

              • Numbers are numbers,
                they mean to you what you believe them to mean.

                Most soldiers have access to a file, and know how to use one if they feel the need.

              • That last one is very interesting..

                The Pledge was written in 1892. “Under God” was not added until 1954 under pressure from the Knights of Columbus (the world’s largest Catholic fraternal service organization).

                How is removing it an attack on Christianity? If anything, it seems to me to be an effort to repeal a religious over-reach.

              • When the government starts locking people up for saying a prayer, will you admit there might be a problem? Oh, its already happening.

                http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/17/Florida.school.prayer/index.html

                School brass facing prison time for luncheon prayer

              • Buck The Wala says:

                If you read the article the school officials are not facing possible jail time for saying a prayer; they are facing jail time for violating a consent decree.

              • So what. It still all stems from luncheon prayer

              • Buck The Wala says:

                It stems from a violation of separation of church and state. A court order was reached. The school officials then proceeded to violate that order.

              • It makes all the difference in the world.

                What’s the difference between me taking money out of a bank with a withdrawal slip and my taking money out at the point of a gun?

                The action itself is not illegal, but the way it was done is.

              • Buck, I have read the article and the 1st amendment. I see a conflict.

              • What does that have to do with the price of apples.

                On an issue like this cant it just BE?

                Not fencing with you guys but what did it hurt anyone, for real, for that prayer to be said. Did it harm you. Honestly did it harm you. I’m not going into the slippery slope game on this one.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                what was the consent to? As far as I know they were not on school property and there were no students present. I’m not being a smarty pants, I’d really like to know.

      • Buck The Wala says:

        Kristian could you please expand on how Christians are being treated in the same fashion as Jews were under Hitler Germany? Could you expand on how you are made to feel like a second class citizen?

        • Kristian Stout says:

          Buck,

          Thank you for asking. How am I made to feel like a second class citizen? Check out the responses that I recieved from Mathius and Bob. That’s how. I can’t believe that I am almost in tears over this! That just pisses me off! I mention being a Christian and away we go with all of the rhetoric. I’ve got news for Mathius and Bob, those “Christians” that you think are in charge are not true Christians! They wouldn’t know the meaning of true Christianity if it bit them on the nose! Your examples are exactly the kind of people who give Christianity a bad name. Christianity is not about judging, it’s not about our way is right and yours is wrong. Your faith is your responsibility, not mine. If someone proclaiming to be a Christian told you that you were going to burn in a lake of fire unless you repent, you were dealing with a zealot not a Christian. Big difference. A Baptist preacher once told me that it doesn’t matter what faith you are, it’s your realtionship with God that gets you into heaven. Your faith doesn’t believe in Jesus, ok, that doesn’t make you wrong and it doesn’t make you a bad person. But neither does my belief in Jesus make me those things. That’s Christianity, humbleness and a willingness to understand that what I believe is not required for all to believe.

          As for how Christians are being treated the same as Jews in Hitler’s Germany, I can truly say it isn’t as bad as that yet, but if things keep going the way that they are? Who knows, it may. And the ironic thing about it, it’s going to be the very Christians that Mathius and Bob mentioned that will probably do it. Jews were made out to be criminals simply because of their faith, what is to stop that from happening right here? Don’t tell me it won’t happen, tell me why it won’t happen. I can’t wish someone a Merry Christmas or say Bless you when someone sneezes without being looked at sideways. Any mention of my faith and I’m labeled a nutcase for believing in something that I can’t see. Because of my faith I am automatically wrong. The responses from Mathius and Bob are proof. I think Christianity is in trouble and I get pummeled and told that I’m crazy. And I shouldn’t feel like a second class citizen why?

          • Wow you have such a persecution complex. I was not mocking you in any way for being a Christian I was simply laughing at the complete and utter disregard of what the jews went through in 1930’s Germany to your percieved persecution you supposedly get now. Again until you are forced to wear a cross on your clothes, get put into a labour camp where you either die from over work or are simply hit on the head with a hammer and chucked into a furnace then you can start making comparisons. Need a thicker skin there buddy.

            • Kristian Stout says:

              Bob,

              Does it really have to come to that before we will be taken seriously? I don’t disregard what the Jews went through. I think that it was atrocious and inhumane and just plain evil when comes down to it. But does it really have to get that far here before it’s ok to be concerned?

              • The situations are completely different, the jews in Germany were a small minority. Christians in America are the vast majority, I dont understand how a minority can round up the majority and gas them. If you have any suggestions I am all ears.

              • Bob,

                A minority running over a majority??

                What do you call government??

                Ask the Cambodians, the Chinese, the Kurds, the Tutsi and the Ukrainians for details on how that is done.

              • Did they manage to kill 75% of the people in those countries?

              • Don’t need to kill all of them to be a massacre or genocide.

              • Check out this article from last August. Look and listen to the clip. The National Guard job posting has since been removed. Open your ears, and eyes…..

                http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/what_is_going_on_here.html

                August 07, 2009
                What is going on here?
                By M.J.Motley
                Alright enough already! Will someone please turn the lights back on and roll the credits for this week’s episode of the Twilight Zone.

                First we have the brazenly Orwellian directive from the Office of Health Reform/Ministry of Truth to contact our friendly snitchboard operator to report any “fishy” communications from our neighbors/political extremists. Then from Pamela Geller’s Atlas Shrugs I learn that the National Guard is now looking for a few good internment/resettlement specialists?

                Really?

                Internment of whom?

                I’m moving where?

                As if the seeming overnight bankruptcy of our entire country were not enough to rattle our nerves, we have the White House’s apparent confidence that it need not bother fretting over the appearance of totalitarianism. What is it that imbues these people to think that no-one will notice the unsettling parallels they have with unseemly dictators?

                It is at about this point that I start trying to reassure myself that this can’t really be as terrifying as it sounds. Then I remember this little clip entailing what Obama’s former SDS friends had in mind for people like me. Many of whom, like Marilyn Katz & Andy Stern, are wandering the halls of the White House today.

                Taken separately, the White House’s asking Americans to inform on each other, the apparent creation of a new Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) and the wild-eyed genocidal fantasies of 60’s radicals would probably be enough to disturb anyone. hen taken collectively it becomes the substance from which nightmares are derived.

                Let’s re-cap shall we, One, there is now a White House sponsored, “community” driven blacklisting site. Two, we have a freshly created military specialty in our traditionally domestically-oriented National Guard that seems to be tailored towards gulag maintenance and operations. Three, the cherry on top of having subversive elements advising our Dear Leader who had frankly once proposed exactly these same Stalinesque measures including the slaughter of millions of their fellow countrymen!

                Boiled down to nuts and bolts it looks something like this;

                1) Locate, record and target.

                2) Segregate, contain & re-educate.

                3) Evaluate, assimilate or eliminate.

                Throw in fantasy claims that Obama’s opponents carry swastikas, emanating from the mouth of the person next in line after Vice President Biden in presidential succession.

                Fantastical as it seems, and it is. I cannot help but recall the old adage about ducks, so modified a bit, if it sounds like Marx, and acts like Mussolini, it is probably Obama.

          • Buck The Wala says:

            Not for nothing, but I completely agree with Mathius’ and Bob’s ‘attacks’ against you for what you said. Sorry. It is not that you said you are a Christian; its that you likened the treatment of Christians in this country at this time to the treatment of Jews during the Holocaust. I’m sorry but that is ridiculous.

            Notwithstanding the personal views of individual citizens and their personal reaction to you being a religious person, how is that the same as a government campaign to lock up and kill a religious minority? You are charging that Christians can and will be made out to be criminals in this country — how do you see that happening? The burden is not on myself nor Mathius nor Bob to explain how it won’t happen. You are making a very serious charge. Can you back it up with facts?

            • Kristian Stout says:

              So, let me get this straight, because it hasnt’ gotten as bad as Nazi Germany, yet, then I am wrong and completely off base? Is that about right? I’m thinking that it probably started out much the same way there. So, I am supposed to just wait and pray that I am wrong? Do nothing and just sit back and take the abuse that will inevitably lead to exactly what you tell me is not going to happen? Ok, sounds like a plan.(in case you were wondering, that was sarcasm)

              • Buck The Wala says:

                You are making the charge that, although not quite as bad as Nazi Germany, we’re sure heading in that direction fast. I’ll ask again: how so??

              • No, we got the sarcasm.. by the way, apparently now, there’s a special punctuation symbol for sarcasm (something I’ve been wanting for years): http://02d9656.netsoljsp.com/SarcMark/modules/user/commonfiles/loadhome.do

                But there’s something I would like you to ponder. Lewis Sinclair: “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag, and carrying a cross.”

              • Kristian Stout says:

                Mr. Sinclair is probably right, but it won’t be true Chrsitians who are behind it. There are those of us who understand Christianity is not about making the world believe as we do.

              • Matt,

                I don’t think fascism will be carrying a cross. Its already arrived. Its carrying Obama.

                That whole environment thing is kind of falling through. They had planned to use that but now have to use O becuase he’s all they have left.

          • those “Christians” that you think are in charge are not true Christians!

            This is interesting. I wonder, if you say that it is not for you to judge, who are you to declare that they are not true Christians?

            One thing I wish you’d note in Bob, Buck and my responses is this: nowhere, nowhere did we attack you for your faith. We attacked the comparison of your victimization to the Jews of Germany. We attacked what others have said and done to attack us. But we never said you can’t be Christian or that you’re being Christian is bad/wrong/unacceptable/etc. It never happened. We never said you can’t practice your faith. And if you want to say “god bless you” or “merry Christmas,” I’m just fine with that. (although Christmas was last month, so it’s a bit odd to say, and I haven’t sneezed, so bless you is equally odd, but I don’t find it offensive).

            • Kristian Stout says:

              Mathius,

              I understand what you were attacking but my point is this, just because it isn’t as blatant as Nazi Germany doesn’t mean that it isn’t happening and won’t grow to what Nazi Germany was.

              You personally have never said that I can’t practice my faith, you’re right about that. But I’m truly waiting for that to happen. It won’t be you that does it, but it will happen. Can I give you proof? No, only a gut belief that being a christian will one day be a killing offense. Call me crazy, I’m no political genius and I certainly don’t know enough to be able to debate with you. I only know how I feel and what I see in my own life. I could be dead wrong, I pray that I am.

              • If someone starts telling you that you can’t practice your faith*, I’ll be there to back you up. You have my word.

                *in a way that doesn’t impose on others or unduly inconvenience, proselytize, intimidate, etc, and isn’t done in any official government capacity or directly/indirectly funded by tax dollars.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                I know that you will Mathius. I asked Bob a few minutes ago and now I’ll ask you. First, please understand I am not in any way, shape or form trying to negate or disreagrd what happened in Nazi Germany. I think that it was inhumane and just plain evil. Do we have to wait for it to get that bad here before it’s ok to be concerned? No sarcasm, a serious question.

              • 1. The two are not comparable situations. The Jews with a disliked, and small minority.

                2. You would find that the Jews would never allow it to happen. Never.

                3. Nobody is saying that Christianity is bad or that you can’t practice it, just that you can’t violate the above caveats.

                It will never get that bad. It’s not trending in that direction. You are (no offense intended) conflating a weakening of Christian power in the United States with the oppression of Christians. And this is a dangerous mistake to make.

                Not being a slave-owner does not make you a slave. It makes you an equal.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I’m not suggesting that the situation now is as bad as 1930’s Germany, only that left unchecked, it could be. If i’ve learned one thing in life it’s that you never say never and as Cyndi said don’t discount the inhumanity of man. You’ll be surprised and sickened every time.

            • Matt,

              How do you feel about the Palistians treatment by Israel? It has been said that what the Isreali’s do to the Palis is a holocaust too. There are no death camps, roundups and exportation to ghettos, distinctive clothing mandated by the state, etc. Do you agree that what is happening to the Palistians is the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany? Is it just as bad but different? Is it a holocuast?

              • Firstly, I think we should recognize that the heart of the Holocaust (big H) is the planned, deliberate mass-murder of whole demographics. So, by your own admission, this is not happening in Israel.

                Second, Israel’s official policy is to avoid civilian deaths to the fullest of their ability. Where this policy is violated, the violators are severely punished.

                Are there some major issues which need to addressed? Absolutely. Has Israel always behaved as we would want them to? No. Are the Jews innocent victims? Not really. Are the Palestinians innocent victims? Not really. Is it tantamount to the deliberate wholesale genocide that was the Holocaust? Absolutely not.

          • I’m with you Kristain. I’ve seen what you’ve described. Things have changed a great deal in thirty years. It seems not everyone has noticed. I haven’t set foot in a church in years BTW.

            Its not just Christians that are targeted by the Leftists. It whites, too, Republicans and conservatives. I see a definate pattern, and the big picture is worrisome. Why hasn’t O repealed the Patriot Act? Why are the FEMA camps still standing? He could have those dismantled with the stroke of a pen. Think of the jobs he can say have been created! There are no occupants in those camps, unlike Gitmo. So “Tear down those camps!” You see gentlemen, something nasty is a foot, I feel it in my gut. So does Kristain. I can’t speak for Kristain, but my gut feeling is never wrong.

            • Ah, it’s those bad old leftists again.. and now we’re out for the whites AND the Christians. We’re going to kill off the two biggest and most powerful constituencies in the country.. interesting…

              • Matt,

                There’s alot of wealth in the hands of whites and conservatives that can be redistributed. Wealth redistrubtion is a goal of the Left, right? Social Justice, equal outcome, etc.? What happens when some still isn’t enough? BTW, it’ll NEVER be enough. Did you know that Hilter used the wealth of the Jews to fund his social programs? I’m guessing that there were a lot of German Jews who never thought it could happen to them. I suppose that they really though they were going to get a nice hot shower when they walked in to the gas chambers. One the other hand, thousands of Jews tried to escape what was going on, even early on. So there were some who saw where things where headed. Never underestimate the inhumanity of man, Matt.

              • I’m having a hard time with this. Yes, there is a lot of wealth in the hands of the Christians – because there are a lot of Christians.

                Stupid question: wouldn’t it just be easier to come for the Jews again? Statistically speaking, we are three times wealthier on a per capita basis. Much more bang for your buck, and there are only 6 million of us instead of the 225 million of you.

                Plus studies show that fully 1/3 of Europeans blame Jews for the financial meltdown, I’m sure comparable numbers would be found here. We’re already hated, so they don’t have to do too much extra work on the propaganda.

                We’re an easy target. You, on the other hand, are 30-something times more populous, and substantially more powerful.

                It’s like passing up the free buffet in order to wrestle a bear for 30-pt buck.

                But they’re coming for you, right?

                Riddle me this: Who is behind this conspiracy?

              • Adding, I looked for a while but couldn’t find corroborating evidence, but I’ll wager that Jewish gun ownership rates are far below Christian rates.

                We’re practically begging for it!

              • Whites/Christians make a wonderful target because they refuse to believe they are a target. They believe that it can’t happen to them, just like you believe. You’re right that Jews are a minority. So why waste time on them when you get only ONE chance at it? IF whites and Christians felt threatened, then yes, they’d have nothing to worry about, but for the most part, they refuse to see what is happening, thus they won’t ensure their own survival. For those of us who are concerned, folks who refuse to acknowledge the smears, targeting, and who is behind it, are what will help us survive. You see, the machine will focus its energies on the clueless masses, allowing small numbers to escape to other countries. It won’t take much for folks like me to make that move. There are only three reasons why I haven’t made that move already, though I’m not living in the USA proper. One, I very much like my job and location. Two, I don’t want to leave my man, who like many others, has his head in the sand. Three, I feel the the threat is not immediate. Should the threat become immediate, I will physically make my move away from the machine. Should the job go away, which is possible, or become unpleasant, I’ll make my move. My boyfriend is a good man and I have hope that his self preservation instinct will kick in before I feel the need to make my move.

                Who is behind this conspiracy, you ask? Marxists, Communists, and Socialists of various stripes. To achieve their goals, each of them needs to neutralize the majority of Americans.

      • Kristian, it feels like you’ve stepped in it a little bit here. We’re being rough with you above, but I would honestly like a serious answer this:

        If there is a deliberate and organized campaign in effect which may ultimately lead to the treatment of Christians in this country comparably to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany, how do you see the progression?

        That is, the Nazis blames the Jews for things, boycotted them, made them wear star of David’s, confiscated their property, rounded them into ghettos, shipped them to concentrations camps, used them for medical experimentation, and ultimately gassed them en masse. How do you see this (worst case scenario) playing out against you in modern America?

        • Kristian Stout says:

          Mathius,

          I don’t know if there is a serious movement which will lead to what happened in Nazi Germany. All I can tell you about is what happens to me on a regular basis. Do I see this happening in my life time? Possibly. I’m seeing teaching staff being sued by the likes of the ACLU for having a prayer before a meal because it violates seperation of church and state. I’m hearing stories of children being suspended for carrying a bible in their back packs. Why wouldn’t these small things that are happening now lead to exactly what happened to the Jews? Can you tell me that?

      • Kristian,

        I figured I would weigh in here, since I see that the discussion got a little testy above. First, I will address the treatment of Christians in this country. I do believe that there has been a movement in this country to marginalize those of the christian faith. It is more about an out of control PC movement than a persecution of the christian faith. I have no problem when people don’t want a prayer said before a football game. I have all kinds of problems when someone has issue with you personally saying a prayer before the game. The banning of Merry Christmas is a reaction from business owners who simply don’t want ot lose business in an increasingly diverse public sector. In short, I do believe that the christians have every right to feel a bit marginalized.

        Your mistake was comparing it to the treatment of Jews. What happened to the Jews was an abomination. I don’t think that could happen in this country. There are simply too many people who are either christian or sympathetic to the christian faith. If I were Jewish, I might have been disappointed to hear that comparison as well, so I understand where Mathius is coming from.

        The christian faith is somewhat under attack in today’s America, of that there is little doubt in my mind. But we would be pushing the boundaries of reality to compare it in any way to the plight of the Jews in Nazi Germany. If you want a more accurate comparison, you might choose the way that muslims are treated in the US to the way Jews were treated. I could see that comparison becoming more valid in the near term.

        USW

        • I don’t think it’s even fair to say that Christians are under attack any more than everyone else. What I think is at work here is this: Christians have run the show since the beginning. Even though it was never officially a “Christian country,” Christians have always been the majority and have called the shots.

          Now that influence is waning. And what you see is the roll-back of that influence. Christians have come to see that influence as their right, or to put it in better perspective, their entitlement. And to take that away is an attack.

          They are entitled to have Christmas trees in public buildings. They are entitled to put up the 10 Commandments in a courthouse. They are entitled to school prayers. They are entitled to “under God” in the pledge of allegiance. They are entitled to define marriage for everyone. They are entitled to decide when life begins. They are entitled to prayers before football games. They are entitled to pray around children without parental consent. They are entitled to demand Christianity as a litmus test for the Presidency. And so on..

          So when we start stripping them of their entitlements, they scream bloody murder. As if they’re being oppressed relative to, say, Muslims who are strip searched every time the fly and who are given sideways glances when they ride the subway, who have no chance of being President.

          And they compare this to the worst tragedy in the history of man, and to them, it isn’t an exaggeration, but the obvious conclusion for where this is all going. But it’s only because they have a skewed perspective. If they would step back, they would see they still have so much inordinate power and influence. They’re becoming equals not inferiors.

          But it’s a rough transition.

          • MMMMMMMMMMMmmm

            Interesting comment from a “tolerant” liberal.

            “So when we start stripping them of their entitlements, they scream bloody murder.”

            Stripping them???

            When did the Christmas tree become a Christian symbol?

            By the way Matt. What happened to Christianity in Germany once the Nazi’s gained control. And remember, the Nazis were a “minority”.

            • Christmas tree became the symbol of Christmas when the Christians hijacked the winter solstice holiday of Saturnalius (sp?) to better compete with indiginous nature worshiping peoples. These people would cut down boughs of evergreen trees and bring them indoors to protect their spirit and ensure rebirth of Spring.

              • Matt

                The tree is not a christian symbol.

                And the story of hijacking the winter solstice holiday is disputed among scholars. I read a dissenting piece in December but did not save the link.

                But I see you skipped over the harder questions and commented on the tree.

              • Well December was certainly not when Christ was born.

                Your gonna have to pony up some links about the winter solstice not being hijacked.

                http://www3.kumc.edu/diversity/other/wslstice.html

              • Bob

                Since no one knows for sure when Christ was born how is it that you do?

                Cultural transitions took place over a long period of time. A hijacking is a deliberate move, orchestrated with intent.

                All theories of the Catholic Church hijacking the pagan holidays are just that…theories.

                There is no hard evidence until the 4th century when the church declared Dec 25 has the official celebration of Christ’s birth.

                Thats 4 centuries after the fact. By then the celebrations had blended due to general cultural changes, which include the religious beliefs of individuals.

              • Well, actually we do know when he was born if we assume the Biblical record is correct in the description of the journey.

                It was ‘tax time’ – requiring everyone to pilgrimage back to their home town for the census and taxes.

                That is why the Inns were all full.

                We know the precise date of when that tax was levied and the census taken.

                So we can guess +/- a couple of days for the birth.

            • The Nazis had a whole lot of support from the wider German populace.

              Christianity was allowed to continue, both catholics and protestant churches held services throughout the 30’s and 40’s. Hitler referenced his Christian beliefs in many of his speeches.

              • Bob

                Sorry there but wrong as usual. Hitler and the Nazi’s tried to morph the Christian religion into a more Earth centric, or pagean religion whose values would support their new ethic. They were a continuation of many of the values originally espoused by the Progressive movement. Which included health, purity of body, environment.

                Christianity was not left alone to continue as it had before. And yet it was the vast majority.

                So you see, majority status is not an argument against the reality of belittlement, attack or persecution.

              • Tried is the word and he failed, he tried to completely unify the protestant churches but it didnt work. Considering the majority of Germans were Christians Hitler recieved little support for this. He didnt even dare to do anything to the catholic bishops even when some of them came out in support of the jews.
                Some of the ministers who came out in direct confrontation with Hitler were sent to concentration camps but so did everyone who directly opposed him.

                http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/NSChristianity.html

                Hitler tried to meddle but Christianity was more or less left alone. Try again JAC.

              • Bob

                Here you go chap.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany#Nazi_Attitudes_towards_Christianity

                You need to start grasping the entire concept instead of cherry picking your conclusions and evidence.

              • Already read it, again services were still being held and the majority of the clergy supported the Nazi party. What happened to the Christians was fairly minor compared to what happened to other religions.

                “You need to start grasping the entire concept instead of cherry picking your conclusions and evidence.”

                Hehe I was going to say exactly the same to you.

              • Bob

                So now you’ve returned to the logic that coersion is not coersion if the victim simply didn’t suffer as much as another victim.

                The circular nature of your logic is enough to make one dizzy.

              • What I am saying is that the people who opposed Hitler were destroyed and those that stood by him survived. The Christian majority survived because they supported Hitler.

                What is the point of this anyway? Are you suggesting the Nazis were planning to round up all the Christians and gas them?
                Again the Christians were more and less left alone because the majority of Germans were Christian.

              • Bob

                So the supposed Christian majority survived because they did not oppose Hitler.

                This of course means one of two things.

                Either the majority was not trully Christian, as the Nazi’s obviously weren’t and murder is against Christ’s teachings; or

                The Christians kept their mouths shut out of fear, thus proving the point that a “minority” was able to coerse a “majority”.

                It was you and Matt who tried to tag the label Christian on the German people and then link it to the Nazi’s. It was you who then tried to use that rationale to argue that Christians have nothing to fear because they are the majority.

                My statement was simple. The Nazi minority did in fact use coersion against the Christians and were in fact attempting to change the nature of the Christian churhes. They had plans to subvert or eliminate such churches all together. So to argue that status as a majority is guaranteed “protection” against coersion and eventual attack is not founded in history.

                And as BF showed you, there are many other examples beyond the Nazies.

              • The majority of the Nazi party was made up of Christians.
                Where you are going wrong is thinking that Nazis != Christian and vice versa. People were members of the Nazi party while still attending mass every Sunday or going to a Lutheran service.

                The majority of the church followers and clergy supported Hitler. The Christian people who opposed Hitler were rounded up and put in concentration camps not because they were Christian but that they opposed Hitler, he did this with all his opponents, no matter the faith or background.

                If you want to argue if they were true christians that is up to you but that is what they labelled themselves.

                You can say he had plans to get rid of the churches but the fact is he was scared to come out against them because he would be attacking his own supporters.

                “The churches were permitted some self governing and allowed to remain because Hitler did not want to risk strong opposition until other more pressing issues were dealt with.” From the wiki link.

        • USW said, “I have no problem when people don’t want a prayer said before a football game. I have all kinds of problems when someone has issue with you personally saying a prayer before the game.”

          Respectfully, I do have a problem there. 1st amendment, freedom of speech.
          10th amendment, The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

          What business does the federal government have prohibiting a state allowing prayer before an activity? And if a state does prohibit said freedom, I would challenge that as well. The local community should be able to express themselves. Allow people to vote with their feet, or run for school board and make what changes they like.
          as they wish

        • Kristian Stout says:

          US, the only thing I can say to that is just because you don’t think it will happen doesn’t mean that it won’t. Is it that bad yet? No. Can it get that bad? Yes, if left unchecked it will. I will be the first to agree with you that religion should never be legislated. I’ve stated that before. I also think that there is really no way to completely seperate church and state, both are made up of people, and those people have rights. So the question then becomes how do you reconcile the two? I don’t think that has been figured out yet.

      • v. Holland says:

        I find it somewhat hypocritical that people speak so harshly about the Christian religion pushing their views on the population causing people to not have individual rights while they totally disregard the fact that their socialist views of the “greater good” take away individual freedoms. They scream that the religious should shut up because our values are based on religion and because of the separation of church and state we as citizens and the church organization itself have no right to push our values while it is acceptable for them to push their values onto us based on what they think is right. But if a church stands up for what they believe is right, somehow they don’t have a right to do so.

        • A fair point, madam. But the difference, and I mean no disrespect, is that our pursuit of the “great good” is not based off of a 1,700 year old tome of questionable origin. We try (though we frequently fail) to pursue our goals in a secular way based on logic. When we fail to do so, you have seen me blast my own side.

          Part of it is a question of power. Insofar as the religions and the liberal agendas conflict, they try to banish the churches from the debate on grounds of separation. This is a petty tactic, but one that I think may explain some of what you’re seeing – not that I condone it.

        • Let me ask you something. Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that I build a solid and logically sound case for taxes being moral. You are left with no choice but to accept that taxes are moral and you are morally obligated to pay them. How do you feel about taxes now?

          Alternatively, there is an explosion of a certain religion in the US, and that faith makes it a law, based on their religion, that you must wear a head scarf. Now, how do you feel about that scarf?

          What is the difference? One is an imposition on you based on a reasoned argument and logical thinking. One is an imposition on you based on a religious belief with which you do not agree.

          That is the difference. We are ok forcing our beliefs on the populace because they are grounded in secular logic (even though you do not agree), but we cannot accept beliefs forced on us because an unprovable religion says so. Does that make sense?

          • v. Holland says:

            I’d say on the whole Matt, that you are trying to silence one part of society by justifying the same actions on your part of society. We are a Republic-we all have the right to push our own agenda and our own values-who’s right, well that will always be debated as long as we are a free country. We have societal norms that a lot of our laws tend to be based on and we have the supreme court which is supposed to protect us if the majority, minority, or the government oversteps, unfortunately they are so politically influenced that the battles continue to go on and no offense but the fact that you think your side is being logical is just a matter of opinion-yours. I get that you didn’t like the persecution of The Christian faith being compared to the horror of what happened to the Jewish people but I do believe that it is very obvious that there is an agenda out there that is trying to specifically shut the Christian religion up. Call that persecution or something else but the call to hate anything Christian is strong.

            • I believe my side tries to ground itself in logic – big difference.

              And all sides are trying to shut the competition up. Yours included.

              And we aren’t in competition with Christianity – we’re in competition with those who would make laws based on Christianity – big difference.

              But otherwise, point(s) taken.

              • v. Holland says:

                Actually I think you missed the main point-you cannot justify basing laws on your moral definition of what is right and then turn around and condemn the church for doing the same thing-You have stated on this blog that you are for health care because you decided to go the moral way-which is the exact same thing that the church does-it does not matter weather you try to use logic-they are both based on moral opinions-when they should be based on freedom and liberty.

              • Leave it to the progressives and government to take a Christian/religious concept of caring for the needy and pervert it as justification to steal money from one segment of society – then give it to another.

            • Good job V.

            • v. Holland says:

              One more point-when people in society for political reasons start creating an environment that endorses hate for another part of society, the consequences as shown by history can be bad and should be evaluated not belittled as ridiculous.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                V,

                Thanks for that. You made the point that I feel I was unable to.

              • v. Holland says:

                That’s only because some weren’t paying any attention to your actual point. They were just attacking your use of the word Nazi as an historical reference. I’m also not at all sure that ALL will agree that I made the point either :)

              • V.H.

                I think you did so quite well.

                You captured in few words what I had taken two pages to write yesterday evening. Glad I did not post it. Yours is much better.

                I guess I would say I am not a christian, due to my rejection of churches, but even I can see the attacks designed to create anger.

                And, I think we saw some of that surface yesterday. It is an interesting phenomena to say the least.

                Big hug and tip of the hat to you this morning.

                JAC

              • v. Holland says:

                Just as a matter of information-one doesn’t have to be a member of a church to be a Christian.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                I have to say, I was getting very frustrated. Could you tell?;)

                I think that was their goal though, make me look like an idiot and no one will listen. People have been doing it to each other for centuries.

              • Kristian:

                I suggest next time you bring up the idea just use Woodrow Wilson or Mussolini or FDR.

                They all used the same tactics but don’t carry the stigma of gas chambers with them.

                The ominous parallels of the Nazi regime, namely their use of propoganda and balkanization of their population also exist in these other characters.

                Hang in there, you did fine considering the level of your blood pressure.

                Best O’ the best to ya.
                JAC

              • JAC is exactly right.

                Wilson/FDR et al are forerunners of Hitler.

                Hitler simply went further down the logical extremes of such philosophies.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                Thank you. My blood pressure was on the rise…lol. I’ll have to research those you mentioned, history is not a strong suit for me, but I’ll guarantee it will be.

          • “One is an imposition on you based on a reasoned argument and logical thinking.”

            Sorry, but that would be a fallacy or an oxymoron. Not sure which.

            Are you claiming that the religion of Altruism is based on reasoned argument and logical thinking?

            This is how humanity rationalizes the murder of millions.

            • We do our best to be based on logic. We don’t always succeed.

              But you’ll never hear a liberal demand a law because “the good book says so!” That’s where we run into trouble. Debate me on the merits, if you wish, but I will try to exclude you if you use an appeal to (divine) authority as your sole argument.

              Other things you won’t see: “holy”, “sacred”, etc. Best example I can give you is the abomination of what happened with Terry Shivo. The right declared “all life sacred” and that was the end of the discussion. Harrumph! No logic, no reason, no arguments. “The book says so” so we’re going to pass a law that suits us. That is our enemy – not Christianity.

              • Mathius – perhaps you don’t realize that your own “reasoned” arguments for government intrusion into my life sound just as specious to some of us.

    • Bonnie Carniello said
      January 19, 2010 at 11:40 pm

      Life of Illusion
      Can anyone say “Freedom of Religion”- who wants to spend money to remove “In God We Trust” from all of the National buildings-start with DC. Somebody give me a Jesus rifle and I know how to use it and so does my daughter whose running for office! Many people forget that this country was founded by a “Christian” community of people. If you can’t embrace it, turn away! I don’t mind when other religions tout their things. Could we just respect other religions period?

      You can sell your General Electric stock to make a statement. That will send a message.

      I’m so tired of apologizing to all of the people who want to stay politically correct in every direction and all of you yelling racist-get over it, a black President was elected!

      D13-Actually having to wear a seatbelt saved my life after a really bad accident. I was hit in my door as a truck ran a red light. I would have gone through the windshield if not for the seatbelt. I didn’t grow up wearing one either, but I do think they help, not hurt.

      Mathius-roadside litter is usually done by people in local jails. It beats sitting in cells 24-7 using toilet paper and saves the state hiring people to do it, they are paying the people in jail anyway.

      Someone mentioned people liking the “Little House on the Prarie” days. I come from that in my family, a small town near Appomatox, Virginia called Saxe. My great-great grandfather started a tobacco farm on 132 acres and oh by the way my Great Aunt born in 1899 lived to 92. They grew their own vegetables and cured their own meats. What a concept! And the ground was peppered with chemicals that are outlawed today. And my Great Aunt had two sons in the Air Force who died in WWII and they adopted two boys and raised and educated them.

      All of you who are concerned about the chemicals in the food could grow your own even if you don’t own land. Plants will actually grow in pots! I stopped eating beef for the most part when the mad cow thing happened. I only buy buffalo. It is leaner and healthier anyway. You have to stand responsible for what you eat and what’s in it.

      Someone once told me if you’re in a line of cows and they’re not coming back, get out of the line! I think America sent that message tonight by voting in Scott Brown and his truck with 200,001 miles on it! One if my land, two if by sea! If its to be, its up to me!

      Bonnie, great post, sorry I was not on last night to answer. Hope you will forgive me for trowing this into the mix here.

      • You guys are too easy. No wonder the Leviathan idles to victory.

        One side: We’re persecuted!
        Other side: No, we’re persecuted more!

        One side: Oh, yeah!?!?! I’ll show you ours!!
        Other side: Yeah?!??! See this…!!

        One side: You’re stupid!
        Other side: Yeah, well you’re stupider..

        One side: Wanna fight about it!?
        Other side: I’ll throw the first punch!?!

        … and the Beast of Evil laughs as he cleans out your wallets.

        • Care to weigh in, Flag?

          I am of the opinion that all sides are persecuting all other sides. But that Christians are the dominate (religious based) force in this country and are, thus, in no danger of a Nazi-style oppression. I am further of the opinion that this victim mentality is sheer madness.

          I’ll pay three dog-dollars* for your thoughts. (what, exactly, is a dog-cent?)

          *no, I will not actually pay you this, but I will offer a quantity of fiat Mathius-points.

          • A dog-cent is how the female dog attracts a male dog.

            No, I’m not wading in – because you’re right again – the victimization mentality is dangerous – it creates fictitious enemies.

            “Everyone is out to get me, so I’d better get them first!”

        • Kristian Stout says:

          Flag,

          Thanks for the laugh, it was much needed.

        • Good observation, Flag.

    • Germany seems to be the theme today.

      There are many things to pick on in this article but I really love when people rewrite history to support their rant.

      “Recall that the Nazi movement ultimately succeeded in the early 1930s because so many middle-class Germans were scared as they saw their wealth, standard of living, and status all threatened by the Great Depression.”

      I throw the BS flag on this one. The Weimar Republic was started around 1920 and was in massive debt to the Allied Powers for war repatriations. The 1920s German inflation started when Germany had no goods with which to trade. The government printed money to deal with the crisis; this allowed Germany to pay war loans and reparations with worthless marks, and helped formerly great industrialists to pay back their own loans. This also led to pay raises for workers and for businessmen who wanted to profit from it. Circulation of money rocketed, and soon the Germans discovered their money was worthless. The value of the mark had declined from 4.2 per US dollar at the outbreak of World War I to 1 million per dollar by August 1923. This destroyed the middle class not the depression. Can you think of a country today that is printing trillions of dollars and has no goods with which to trade? The Weimar Republic actually improved its financial house from 1925 thru 1930 but again fell on hard times after 1930 partly because of Chancellors Brüning, Papen, Schleicher and Hitler governed not through parliament but through presidential decree. This meant that they used the President’s power to rule without consulting the Reichstag (the German parliament). They justified this abuse using Article 48 of the constitution. Sort of like what we are doing with the Patriot Act to increase the powers of the Executive Branch. One must remember that the Nazis and Hitler used the democratic vote to get into power but never received more than 37% of the popular vote (and yes some of them were worried middle class) when elections were free and democratic in Germany. They had to team with some other party to form a majority rule in the Reichstag because with no majority rule Hitler could not be named Chancellor. Enter the industrialist, who without knowing entered into a pact with the devil with a promise from him that he would leave them alone in his quest for power; they really thought they could control him. Once named Chancellor the rest is history.

  6. USWeapon Topic #6

    You didn’t really think I was not going to mention this did you?

    SCOTT BROWN WHIPS MARTHA COAKLEY IN MASSACHUSETTS SPECIAL SENATE ELECTION

    I want to say a couple of things about this result. First I am a bit surprised that the gap was as large as it was. A 52% to 47% victory for a Republican in Massachusetts is what qualifies as a landslide. I am happy to see it happen, because I see it as a good thing to see the super majority eliminated in the United States Senate. The Progressive bills that were being raced through Congress are going to have to slow down just a little bit.

    I am not yet confident that this will stop the health care legislation. Democrats are currently openly talking about how to manipulate the system in order to cram it through anyway. I have little doubt that their so called nuclear option, reconciliation, is the foremost plan on the table. They could also attempt to finish this up while delaying Brown’s seating in Congress. I think either tactic would be suicide for the Democrats. I do believe that the American public is a bit outraged at the corruption and pure arrogance in today’s Congress. Either of these options would result in widespread backlash against Democrats in November. There is also the fact that there are a few “turnable” Republicans in the Senate who represent the state of Maine. They will go after them as well.

    Regardless of how they want to spin it, this is in fact a slapdown for the Democrats in Congress. This is a VERY blue state saying “enough.” The most laughable spin was from the White House itself, which claimed that this was a result of voter anger that the progressive liberal agenda hasn’t been rammed through fast enough! Talk about living in a fantasy world!

    I do not think this is a referendum on Barack Obama. I know that the GOP is spinning it that way, but I disagree. It is a bit embarrassing for Obama. He went to New Jersey, and lost. He went to Virginia, and lost. He went to Massachusetts, and lost again (in a state he won 64-36 in 2008!). Embarrassing for sure. But not a vote against Obama. Coakley was a bad candidate. It was a vote against health care. It was a vote against the Democrats. It was a statement on how fickle the American voters really are.

    What I do think most of all is that this should be a wake up call for Democrats. I stated early and often after the election that the Democrats were very wrong to make the assumption that they made. The Democratic party immediately began throwing that “mandate” word around. The Democrats believed that the Obama victory was a mandate to push the progressive agenda. They believed that it was an American endorsement of progressive values. They gloated about it for quite a while, even proclaiming conservative politics as “dead” and a “small remaining fringe in America.” I warned them all along that this was absolutely not the case. Obama’s victory was a rebuke of George Bush, nothing more and nothing less. This is still a center to center right country, and I think this result is going to send a strong reminder to the ultra-progressives in America that they are still a vast minority.

    But anything that slows down this progressive train, is a good thing in my book. Way to go Massachusetts!

    • I had hoped that maybe nobody would notice…

      In case you heard a loud sound this morning, it was me, banging my head against my steering wheel

      We can now look forward to 41 Republicans voting in lock-step to block every significant piece of legislation for the next 3/7 years. Even good legislation will be blocked in order to score political points. The result will be the same old sludge that we all abhor.

      I just want to say one thing though: there was no Democratic supermajority. The Democrats aren’t one party. They are at least three with the progressive, the blue dogs, and whatever you want to call the ones somewhere in between the two. Even when they had the numbers to railroad Republicans, they fought amongst themselves just as bitterly. Just a thought, but trying to be a majority whip for the Democrats is like herding cats.

      I don’t think this will change anything.

      But I am not happy about Kennedy’s – I mean, come on, it’s KENNEDY – seat going to a Republican. I take comfort, at least, in knowing that a Republican elected in such a blue state is probably going to be much more moderate than one elected in, say, Idaho.

      • Wait a minute… you blame the repubs for voting in lock step and in the same breath same the dems don’t? Have you been alive for the past year? Watched any news lately? Did you happen to see the vote on healthcare? I have a problem with both parties doing this, but you don’t seem to realize that it is both parties. The fact that a “blue dog” like Bayh could vote for this health care mess is telling me he cares more about his party than his values/constituents.

        I hope now that sanity will return (am I deluded or what) to the congress. Maybe now they will try to pass things that everyone can agree is good rather than using those things are deal sweeteners to pass whatever the heck they want. Health care needs reform, but it needs proper reform. I only hope it can go back to the drawing board and that the dems won’t go nuclear on their chances of retaining their majority this November.

        Good riddance to the supermajority. It is never good when one party can override the wishes of the entire country because they believe they have a “mandate.” This includes repubs and dems, just so you know.

        • It’s true that the health care bill was passed along party lines (it was also voted against unanimously by the Republicans), but it was a major feat to get the dems in line. Maybe I just don’t see it on the other side, but this seems to happen much more naturally over there. I remember that the progressive caucus wasn’t going to vote for the bill without the public option and the blue dogs weren’t going to vote for it with the public option – then someone twisted their arms and they all finally got in line – like herding cats – you can do, but it’s not easy. I’m not saying it never happens.

          • How many “closed door” meetings has Obama and the Dem’s had?

            WASHINGTON — With the health care overhaul on shaky ground, President Obama planned to meet with Senate Democrats on Tuesday afternoon — the second such meeting in the past several weeks — to exhort them to make history by approving the contentious measure.

            Aides say the president does not intend to use the session to negotiate or to discuss particulars of the bill. Rather, he will once again appeal to lawmakers’ sense of history in an effort to give Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader, enough of a boost to get his caucus back in line.

            “We’re on the cusp here,” said one senior administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the president’s strategy. “We’re getting close. They had a deal, and when the president went to the caucus, people believed the deal was good to go. The deal they had is no longer operative, so we’re going to help Senator Reid get to a place where he could get 60 people on the bill.”

            The measure, which had been gathering momentum among Democrats, was suddenly derailed on Sunday when Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, the independent from Connecticut who caucuses with his former Democratic colleagues, went on national television and threatened to join Republicans to defeat the health care measure, President Obama’s top domestic priority.

            On Monday night, Democrats emerged from a tense 90-minute closed-door session and suggested that they were on the verge of bowing to Mr. Lieberman’s main demands: that they scrap a plan to let people buy into Medicare beginning at age 55, and scotch even a fallback version of a new government-run health insurance plan, or public option.

      • Mathius

        Good morning there Matt. Sorry your forhead had to take the brunt of Coakley’s ineptness.

        As for this:

        “a Republican elected in such a blue state is probably going to be much more moderate than one elected in, say, Idaho”

        You missed. Mr. Brown is probably going to be more moderate than the Democrat elected from Idaho last year.

        I doubt you will see the Republicans block any legislation just to make a point. The problems is the Dem’s will attach crap to good bills, making the Repubs vote against them. That is how you create campaign points in 2010 and 2012. “See, the Repubs blocked aid to dependent children and destitute mothers”.

        And yes, both side do this.

        Hope you have a great day.
        JAC

        • Sorry your forhead had to take the brunt of Coakley’s ineptness.

          Don’t feel bad for my head, feel bad for my poor steering wheel. Damn near set off my airbag.

          • Matt, my leftward friend…..do not take it out on the car. Only two things will happen…your head will hurt and the air bag may pop out and then you will have to breathe the contaminated CO2…or whatever is in there. Then you will be sick and possibly have to go to nationalized health care, unless you have an exempted Cadillac plan. :smile:

            How are you today, my friend?

        • Buck The Wala says:

          Its alright JAC – Mathius has a hard head. I’m sure he’s fine.

      • “I don’t think it will change anything”

        Mathius, you’re right this time.

        It won’t. The government will get bigger, more expensive, more intrusive and more angry all by itself.

        • Yes…sad it is. Sort of like the perfect storm? One storm from the West (repubs), one storm from the East (dems), and a low pressure area from the South (progs)…all colliding at once? Interesting thought.

    • When the state government changed the law (again) to allow someone to be appointed before the special election, they definitely didn’t see that coming, otherwise they would have just made it an appointment by the governor. I bet they will change it now, and in the future to suit their needs.

    • A true sign of HOPE came through Massachusetts yesterday! This was a vote against the PROGRESSIVE movement; in an interview by a Democrat focus group, even those Dems that voted for Coakley are against the PROGRESSIVE agenda of this administration.

      Today, there has been a number of Dems backstepping on the healthcare issue. It’s time to recognize and call out what BO & Company is all about – they aren’t Democrats, but highjacked the party as their way to get in.

      While there is a lot of serious business to deal with in this country, it is fun to sit back and watch the finger pointing/blame game. Watched MSNBC almost exclusively last night…poor Chris Matthews looked like he was at a funeral – definitely no jollies up his leg this time.

  7. Good Morning – posting for comments.

  8. forgot to mark the little box….its bedtime :)

  9. http://americanrevolutioncenter.org/what_do_you_know

    A test on American history, 20 questions, some hard, some easy. I missed 3=85.
    Disclaimer, found by Beck, so may be the devils handiwork.

  10. Century 431-404 BC

    The soldier walks onto the field of battle and sees the carnage. He hears the moans of the wounded and the dying. He sees the dead. He smells the stench that hangs in the air. He sees the bodies of those that tried to kill him…his enemy and realizes that the common denominator is life itself and it has been eliminated from that corpse. The soldier smiles contently and basks in the knowledge that he has survived yet another battle and sits down to wipe his brow and be proud of the fact that he has upheld his side and won the battle. It is now time to rest and eat and drink and he closes his eyes and thinks of home and family. All is well.

    The Commander walks onto the same field of battle and sees the same carnage. He hears the same moans of the wounded and the dying. He sees the same dead. He smells the same stench that hangs in the air. He sees the same bodies of those that tried to kill his men…the enemy and realizes the same common denominator is life itself and it has been eliminated from that corpse. But the Commander sees all and wonders why? Why did it come to this? How do we change this? He looks to the horizon, knowing that this was just one battle. The dust cloud reminds him that a war is still raging and that it is ok to revel in the victory of the one battle but there is still a war. The Commander does not have the luxury of being able to celebrate in the thrill of victory. He must prepare for the inevitable counter attack because the dust cloud is getting bigger and closer. The Commander wonders at the futility of it all? What started this? Why has it come down to this? Why do I send men to fight and die? Why is it necessary? He then goes about the task to prepare his men for yet another battle.

    Fast forward: January 20, 2010… basking in the victory of the Scott Brown election. The “troops” throwing high fives and celebrating the defeat of the institution of the Kennedy seat in Massachusetts. We showed those leftist SOB’s a thing or two. It is about time that they received theirs and everyone is happy….rightly so. After all the vote changed the course of a river….or has it?

    D13 wonders. This is just one small battle and there is still a looming dust cloud on the horizon that is getting bigger and more ominous and more threatening. This dust cloud has been somewhat held in check until the winds start to blow again. Scott Brown said the right things and the people responded. Sort of an analogy of Obama. Said the right things and hit the right chords and it made melodious tones…and we are happy and singing. But, the dust cloud is still growing. It has already consumed the bulk of our freedoms. This dust cloud, under the guise of common or collective good, is spreading ever larger threatening to consume even more and it is becoming global and it is hungry for its very existence depends on consuming more and more liberty and more and more freedom. This dust cloud is creating the only thing that it can to survive….a dependent class of lemming called people. The government is everything and can provide anything and it has nothing to do it with……unless it continues to consume more freedoms and more liberties until there are no more….and Pavlov will be happy.

    The Brown election was monumental. It appears the will of the people had something to say, though the ballot box, and at least it changed some small part of the direction. But the direction to where? The Brown election was a battle. The war is still raging and there will be a counter attack. Revel in the Brown victory and give it the credit that it is due but do not get complacent and quit the fight. The dust cloud is still coming and it is still consuming.

    The vote is still powerful and change the course of politics but change it to what course? More of the same? To change history, one must change the dynamics. One must have a new formula. Is Senator elect Brown the beginning? If he is, we need more like him and not the same mantra that is in there now.

    Liberty and Freedom needs to be the mantra. True liberty and true freedom…not just buzz words. The war can still be won…and it can be won through the ballot box…but the ballot box must have candidates that are worthy of the vote. Perhaps Brown is the start..perhaps not. Time will tell….he DID say ” it is not a Kennedy seat, it is the seat of the people.” Let us hope that there are more like this and that they stay the course. History has proven otherwise but history can also change. It will take hard work and it will take patience. No magic wand will change it tomorrow and no genie will rescue it. Freedom and Liberty come from the people and the people need to keep vigilant and not over look the forest for the trees.

    Thus, D13 waxes philosophical from his perspective and takes leave….keeping an eye on the dust cloud.

    • Good Day Colonel!

      I would at this point, seeing the cloud of dust with glimmers of raging fires, look real hard at alternate stategies to employ with the primary one. Turn the defensive posture into a offensive/defensive posture, employing small offensive attacks to weaken the enemy before the final battle. I feel we are outnumbered, and their strategy is unconventional. They want control and power, but what do they want to do with it if they achieve this goal?

      Their tactics have gone unnoticed and covertly achieved under the guise of freedom, which is what they want to destroy. Many questions to answer. I want to better understand the enemy, but yet I find things missing. I’m searching for these answers, in unconventional areas, so as to equalize their uncoventional tactics.

      Peace and Be Free!

      G!

    • D13,

      Wow, great post. Been hectic, wish I had read this earlier.

      Myself, I am looking to see if the house adopts the senate bill with no changes, or if the election results are challenged or a delay in his seating.

  11. Judy Sabatini says:

    The Madness of King Barack

    By Brian Doherty

    Will King Barack respond to the election of Scott Brown in Massachusetts with moderation and scrap health care or with madness?

    On December 16, 1773, several dozen colonists in Boston, angered by King George’s financially ruinous tea tax, took action into their own hands. Dressed as Mohawk Indians, they snuck onto 3 British tea ships and dumped over 300 chests of tea into Boston Harbor. That revolt was said to have sparked the American Revolution.

    Last night, the state of Massachusetts was the site of yet another revolt, only this time it was Attorney General Martha Coakley, the Democratic Party, and President Obama, health care and health care reform that were thrown into the drink, following the stunning election of Republican Scott Brown to the U.S. Senate.

    Yet on the eve of the election, the White House suggested to Politico’s Mike Allen that they would not moderate the president’s policies, but in a fit of madness akin to King George’s, would double down and strike a more combative tone.

    I have a feeling that over the next few days, the White House will want to talk to Mike Allen and amend their remarks.

    As evidenced by the quotes listed below, aside from DCCC chairman Chris Van Hollen’s “blame Bush” comment, most of the President’s loyalists aren’t so anxious for the call to arms:

    “Regardless of the outcome … this should be a gigantic wake-up call to the Democratic Party – that we’re not connecting with the needs, the aspirations and the desires of real people right now.”
    – San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom

    “(This election ) is not just the canary in the coal mine,” said. “It’s the flock of dead ravens landing on the lawn.”
    -Wade Randlett, a leading Silicon Valley fundraiser for Obama

    “President George W. Bush and House Republicans drove our economy into a ditch and tried to run away from the accident.”
    – Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D-Maryland)

    “Suspend further votes on health care legislation until Senator-elect Brown is seated.”
    -Sen. Jim Webb (D-Va.)

    “It’s not the end of the world. Look, we can come back to healthcare. It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to step back and say, look, we’re going to pivot to do a jobs thing. We’re going to try to include some healthcare pieces in it.”
    -Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.)

    “I have no interest in sugar coating what happened in Massachusetts. There is a lot of anxiety in the country right now. Americans are understandably impatient. The truth is Democrats understand the economic anger voters feel, that’s in large part why we did well in 2006 and 2008.
    -Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.), Chmn., DSCC

    In response to the tea party protest, King George passed the ‘Coercive Acts,’ which was every bit as punishing as it sounds. Will King Barack respond to the election of Scott Brown in Massachusetts with moderation and scrap health care or with madness and shove a coercive bill down America’s collective throats?

    • LOI….yeah…we know all about this. Texas does not restrict the sale of guns in any manner and will not. The way that the police will handle this in Austin is the same way here. They watch carefully and they profile. They profile on Hispanics because most of the illegals in Texas are Hispanic….so….they wait outside the gun shows and watch and stop and check the legal status of Hispanics…..since the fact that a great amount of gun running in Texas is Hispanic related is why they are profiled. Works well here. If the citizen can show he has legal resident status, he is let go. If he cannot…he is arrested. If they produce identification, the numbers are actually checked and if ok….let go. Fort Worth and Dallas are not sanctuary cities and neither is Austin, in reality.

      Not sure how I feel about the profiling but would rather have that than any regulation on the sale of guns, I think.

      • I see Miss Sarah P is coming to campaign with your current Governor next month.

        • Ahhhh….yes….the lady of Alaska (ahem, the so called largest state)coming to visit us Texas peasants (ahem, the so called 2nd largest state…I still say that we Texans had to manufacture Alaska to have ice for our Margueritas, but that is up for debate). Yes, our good Governor seems to think she appeals to the independent Texan….most of us (independents) are seriously keeping an eye on Debra Medina and there are several of us trying to make sure the political machine does not cut her out of future debates as is being rumored.

          Ms. Palin is welcome. I want to see if she can REALLY shoot. I do not plan on seeing her.

      • I have had to show valid state ID when making such a purchase. I think I am OK with it, although a felon can have a valid DL. Its not a perfect world.

  12. Oh Bob,

    http://www.britainneedsguns.co.uk/

    This website exists to promote responsible gun ownership in Britain for self-defence purposes and to lobby the government to relax gun laws so that decent, law-abiding people can protect themselves in the United Kingdom.

    The site also exists to dispel the untrue myths concerning gun ownership that have been put forward by the UK newspapers and other media.

    In 1997 the UK governments imposed a nationwide ban on the purchasing and ownership of all handguns following the gun massacre in Dunblane, Scotland.

    At the time we were told that such a ban would make the UK a safer place. When you consider that promise from politicians, it’s clear that it has been a massive failure. In fact it’s now made the UK into a far more dangerous place to live.

    The fact is that when you ban weapons from society the only thing you succeed in doing is leaving decent law-abiding people defenceless. The criminals remain armed because they don’t obey the law, remember – when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.

    In turn this actually encourages criminals to commit more crime, as their job becomes much easier when they know they’ll encounter no resistance from their victims.

    One thing has become clear; we need to try a new and different approach to crime, as the current method is proving to have a perverse effect. We now live in a dangerous and completely disarmed country where criminals rule the streets and good, decent people live in fear.

    The idea of allowing citizens to own and use firearms for self-defence purposes is controversial but despite what the media want you to believe it’s proven to be very successful in reducing violent crime around the world, with particular success being noted in the United States.

    Huge decisions such as this should be based on knowledge of the facts.

    Unfortunately British attitudes regarding gun control are misguided, and there is a tremendous lack of knowledge in UK society towards guns as self-defence tools.

    This is something that I hope to be able to change by presenting the facts surrounding responsible gun ownership in a clear and easy to understand manner.

    • I can buy guns if I desire just not handguns. I personally know two people who own firearms, the gun culture in the states compared to Britain are completely different. Even before the handgun ban in 1997 0.1% of the population owned a pistol. I am glad I live somewhere where I dont feel the need to own a firearm. There were 42 gun related deaths in the UK in 2008, that includes suicides. I really dont see the need to arm up with pistols.

      • Bob, this chap seems to feel differently. Looks as if he has many of those 42 detailed. Good to know you could obtain a long gun if you wanted. Are you sure about that? I have read stories about a kid arrested on his birthday over having a air rifle.

        http://www.britainneedsguns.co.uk/unarmedbrit.htm

        Unarmed Britain

        Listed here is a collection of news stories where good, decent people have been left defenceless against violent armed criminals, resulting in the victims suffering serious injury or death.

        All of these crimes might have been prevented if the victims were armed. In fact, the possibility of encoutering an armed victim may have deterred the criminal from attacking in the first place.

        It’s also becoming increasing apparent that British criminals have no problem obtaining firearms despite the UK having some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

        • I can get a license for rifles and shotguns. Think he is being a little over the top to be honest, I doubt it is easy to obtain handguns as he thinks. I would have no idea how to obtain a pistol. Not to belittle the stories in the news articles but the Daily Mail is a worthless rag who sensationalise stories to make Britain appear to be a 3rd world country. Take everything you read in those articles with a BIGGGGG pinch of salt, the Mail was a public supporter of the nazi party in the 30’s and little has changed. Would any of those outcomes have been different if those guys had been armed I really dont know.

        • LOI,
          I count 8 killed and 9 injured in the stories listed about Britain.

          Mean while in the USA, where guns are legal and easy to get, 13 were killed in two incidents this week. And that’s just the major headlines.

          • Did the article mention if the guns were legally held? I’ve never heard of a single murder, or any mass killings at a firing range. Lot’s of guns and ammo, yet not a single instance of murder. So I’m guessing that more guns doesn’t automatically equal more shootings and murder, but that’s just my line of thinking.

              • One??? Do you have any idea how many gun ranges there are in the US alone? One is all you can find? She didn’t exactly go on a spree now, did she? She had a history of mental illness and could have easily taken the kid out with her car. If she had turned the gun on anyone else but herself after she shot her son, she’d have been taken out. This is much different than someone walking into a restaurant and opening fire, or a disgruntled employee shooting up his co-workers. I’ll take my chances at ANY shooting range in America. You can hide behind your gun laws and keep hoping the crimianls don’t hurt you.

              • Cyndi,
                You said you’ve never heard of a single murder at a firing range. And you were pretty adamant about it.

                Bob provided one.

                Now you get defensive and say one isn’t enough? What’s the magic number?

                And then you make up all kinds of excuses – she has a history of mental illness, could have used a car, would have been killed by others (your OPINION only, by the way).

                You brought up firing ranges. What exactly do they have to do with this? Not exactly a typical setting on which to base….huh…anything…

              • Todd,

                I get the impression that Bob thinks more guns = more mayhem. My point is that when everyone is armed and knows how to use the weapon safely, there is very little violence. The woman in question was known to be mentally ill. Just like all the other mentally ill people that have gone into a variety of places and committed mass murder.

                I’d say that firing ranges ARE a typical setting for people who are not afraid of inanimate objects like guns. How much time have you spent on a firing range? I’ve spent plenty of time on them when I was in the Amry and again, after I was out. I was NEVER afraid. There must be thousands of gun ranges in the US alone, so I’d say they are VERY typical. The only thing about them that isn’t typical, is we don’t have mentally ill mass murderers going to them seeking unarmed victims. Those folks go to places where they know its likely everyone will be UNARMED, like in schools, restaurants, shopping malls, etc. Blaming guns for violence is like blaming pencils for misspelled words.

              • Hehe I knew you would go mental, hey you asked for one and I gave you one. Sorry going to put some more parameters if you are looking for examples.

              • Mental? What do you mean?

              • Go on a rant, I posted the link because I thought you would go off on one. I also bet myself that you would include a disparaging comment at the end as well, hmmm think I will reward myself with some chocolate.

          • http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/

            Police: Bar owner shoots convicted killer from Belmont in self-defense

            A shootout at a west Charlotte bar injured three, including Mark Bowens, a convicted killer from Belmont who police say initiated the Sunday night shooting.

            The incident occurred around 10:40 p.m. Sunday just across the Gaston County line at the Get-A-Way Lounge at 9305 Wilkinson Blvd., according to Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police.

            Police say Mark Anthony Bowens, 37, and Rodney Bowens, 45, both of Belmont, were kicked out of the nightclub and then returned a short time later with at least one handgun and started shooting.

            Bar owner Roosevelt Hinton, 67, of Charlotte, grabbed a handgun and fired back in self-defense, shooting Mark Bowens in the head and abdomen, police said.

            Police found Mark Bowens on the pavement outside the club.

            Mark Bowens has served four stretches in North Carolina prisons, including more than six years for a 1991 second-degree murder conviction in Mecklenburg County. He also served time for a March 2004 drug conviction in Gaston County.

            Hinton was not injured in the incident and will not face charges, according to Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police.

            Rodney Bowens left the scene and remains at large. He faces charges including possession of a firearm by a felon, communicating threats and assault by pointing a gun.

  13. Judy Sabatini says:

    What Does Brown’s Victory Mean?

    By You Decide

    – FOXNews.com

    Washington wakes up Wednesday to a new Senate make-up, one featuring Republican Massachusetts Senator-elect Scott Brown, who soundly defeated Democrat Martha Coakley, and in the process broke the Democrats’ 60-vote supermajority stranglehold on the Senate. Many also view Brown’s victory as a referendum on the Obama presidency, the Democratic-controlled Congress, health-care reform and the economy, as well as being a harbinger of what might happen in the November midterm election. How do you interpret Brown’s win?

    Share your thoughts. First, answer our question below. Then click “Leave a comment.”

    Thank you for voting!
    It means nothing except the Senate numbers change and Democrats will have to be a little nicer to Republicans. 1% (1,163 votes)
    I still support Obama, but Democrats could be in trouble in November. <1% (439 votes)
    Coakley blew it as much as Brown won it – Democrats will learn and rebound in November. 1% (888 votes)
    Voters are scared – if the economy doesn’t improve soon, Democrats will pay in November. 4% (4,175 votes)
    It’s a clear rejection of Obama’s big-government solutions and how the Democrats’ are running the country – watch out in November. 93% (102,910 votes)
    Other (post your comment) 1% (1,142 votes)
    Total Votes: 110,717

  14. I found this video on “Why Governments are so Stupid”. It’s worth watching. The site has some other good videos as well.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaybury#p/u/3/bP3Sfnp_ehw

  15. For some reason my posts are not going through. Let me try this again. This is an interesting video and there are others on his site.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaybury#p/u/3/bP3Sfnp_ehw

  16. From John Lott’s blog

    Climatologist suggests that NOAA manipulated temperature data
    Joseph D’Aleo, a climatologist, has discovered what he thinks that there are some serious problems with the NOAA temperature data. He doesn’t hold anything back: “PRIMARY UNITED STATES CLIMATE CENTERS NOW CAUGHT IN DATA MANIPULATION.”

    Most of the warming in the global data analyses is in higher latitude areas like Russia and Canada and in higher mountainous regions. These areas have seen significant dropout of stations. The warming comes from interpolations from regions further south, at lower elevations and more urbanized. . . .

    The second document claims this:

    It has been revealed that a “sleight of hand” was used in the computer program that rated 2005 as “THE WARMEST YEAR ON RECORD.” Skeptical climate researchers have discovered extensive manipulation of the data within the U.S. Government’s two primary climate centers: the National Climate Data Center (NCDC) in Asheville, North Carolina and the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) at Columbia University in New York City. These centers are being accused of creating a strong bias toward warmer temperatures through a system that dramatically trimmed the number and cherry-picked the locations of weather observation stations they use to produce the data set on which temperature record reports are based. The two investigators say the system has been distorted in other ways as well. They have documented their findings in great detail in a scientific report that has been posted online. These findings are presented as a part of my television special report ”Global Warming: The Other Side” telecast Thursday night, January 14th at 9 PM here on KUSI TV.

    The data manipulation studies are explored in detail during the fourth segment of the one hour video now available here on our website. Just click on the Global Warming special banner to go to the page.

    NOAA and NASA start with the unadjusted NOAA GHCN (Global Historical Climate Network). NASA eliminates some stations and adds some in the polar regions. For NASA, the computer program that manipulates the data is known as GIStemp, Both then add their own adjustments to calculate a global average temperature and a ranking for each month and year. The two inter-related U.S Government agencies have so intertwined their programs and data sets that both are being challenged by the investigating team that has produced this “smoking gun of U.S. Climate-gate.” “We suspect each center will try to hide behind, ‘It’s them; Not us’ and point fingers at each other,” says the Computer Programmer from San Jose behind these new revelations. He and a Certified Consulting Meteorologist from New Hampshire made their revelations public on January 14th on a prime time television special report at 9:00PM PST; on KUSI-TV, an independent television station in San Diego Perhaps that is why Dr. Richard Anthes, President of the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research in testimony to congress in March 2009 noted “The present federal agency paradigm with respect to NASA and NOAA is obsolete and nearly dysfunctional in spite of best efforts by both agencies.”

    The U.S. Government’s National Weather Service uses the NCDC data in its record temperature news releases put out with much media fanfare on a regular basis as they declare a given month or year has set a record for warmth, supporting the global warming agenda. . . .

    • LOI

      Hope your day is well! :)

      When AGW first became an issue, I personnally wasn’t paying attention. Was it or was it not considered a conspiracy theory early on?

      G!

  17. Just got to thinking about the three different Americas we saw in discussions yesteday. JAC, Flag, and G-Man have weighed in. Would really be curious to see how Matt & Buck would present their America.

    • Hi Anita! :)

      My America as you state, was more like what I could effectively provide as a useful service to my fellow free men and women under a true free country. I would trade that service for other services and goods (bartering). The idea is to show that we all have special skills and can help each other without the government meddeling in our business.

      I’m sure that everyone on this site, whether they know it or not (hint, hint) would be able to do the same.

      Peace!

      G!

    • Anita

      Based on their past comments I would say you are living in it.

      Except they think they can make govt more “effective” and “efficient”.

      And of course govt provided health care exists along with many govt programs to develop and produce environmentally friendly things.

      But then I am putting words in their mouths.

      Hope you had a wonderful day
      JAC

  18. This is really cool! :evil:

  19. Judy Sabatini says:

    Did you hear about the 6.1 earthquake?

    Ted Kennedy rolled over in his grave.

  20. Buck the Wala says:

    Sorry to be so absent from the (very interesting) discussions today — computers crashed at work around 11am and we were offline the rest of the day. I noticed I was called out to comment in a few places; it’s nice to be missed!

    Hopefully things will be back up tomorrow and assuming so will try to be more of a presence and add my thoughts. Have a good night all.

  21. Hmmmm….

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/22f1bd26-05db-11df-8c97-00144feabdc0.html

    Russia diversifies into Canadian dollars

    …and…

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100120/ap_on_bi_ge/us_congress_debt_limit_11

    Democrats propose $1.9T increase in debt limit

    These can’t be good for the economy…..

    • The $1.9 Trillion – and you KNOW it will be waaaay more than that (that is the low figure) – is a serious problem.

      That deficit is larger than any ENTIRE budget of the USA since 2001.

      The buy in CAD$. Unknown. The Bank of Canada’s policy has been for the last 30 years is to discount the Canadian dollar @ 80 to 90% of the US.

      So when the US$ falls, the BoC has purposely destroyed the value of the Canadian dollar. It’s tool has been to offer lower bond rates than the US.

      Now that the race to zero between both central banks has achieved — nearly 0% interest rates – the Canadians are dumbfounded. Unless they pay people to borrow money, the interest rate can’t go any lower.

      The only tactic left is for the BoC to buy US$ and sell CAD$ in the open market. But that has limits too – if Russia is buying CAD$ and selling USD$, the Canadians may be short selling their future for a dropping dollar.

      Isn’t economics fun :) :)

      • v. Holland says:

        I’m confused-if Canada’s dollar is less than the US dollar-Why would Russia buy Canada’s dollar and sell ours?

        • v. Holland says:

          Forget it-when I read my question the answer seemed obvious-but economics confuses the heck out of me but so who knows-I might still be wrong.

        • No, its a good question.

          The next question is:

          Why announce it?

          If I am trying to transfer my holdings away from something I think is going down to something that will go up in the future – do I tell the world???.

          That would cause others to dump the US$ driving it down, while I’m trying to sell it!

          And cause others to buy CAD$ driving the price up, when I’m trying to buy it!

          Doesn’t make sense, right?

          So some other game is a foot…..

  22. Judy Sabatini says:

    I only got a glimpse of what was said on this, but I heard now the senate or president is thinking about over turning or not accepting Brown’s win. Anybody else here anything about this?

  23. Some Funnies for the night: :)

    Just relax…you know who you are.

    George Bush, Queen Elizabeth, and Vladimir Putin all die and go to hell.
    While there, they spy a red phone and ask what the phone is for.

    The devil tells them it is for calling back to Earth.

    Putin calls Russia and talks for 5 minutes. When he was finished the devil
    informs him that the cost is a million dollars, so Putin writes him a check.

    Next Queen Elizabeth calls England and talks for 30 minutes. When she’s
    finished the devil informs her that cost is 6 million dollars, so Queen
    Elizabeth writes him a check.

    Finally George Bush gets his turn and talks for 4 hours. When he’s finished
    the devil informed him that there would be no charge and feel free to call
    the USA anytime.

    I became confused when I heard the word “Service” used with these agencies:

    Internal Revenue ‘Service’
    U.S. Postal ‘Service’
    Telephone ‘Service’
    Cable TV ‘Service’
    Civil ‘Service’
    State, City, County & Public ‘Service’
    Customer ‘Service’

    This is not what I thought ‘Service’ meant.

    But today, I overheard two farmers talking, and one of them said he had hired a bull to ‘Service’ a few cows.
    BAM!!! It all came into focus. Now I understand what all those agencies are doing to us.

    The World’s Shortest Books

    THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL

    by Hillary Clinton

    Nurses are not supposed to laugh…..

    “Of course I won’t laugh,” said the nurse. “I’m a professional. In
    over twenty years I’ve never laughed at a patient.”

    “Okay then,” said Fred, and he proceeded to drop his
    trousers, revealing the tiniest ‘man thingy’ the nurse had ever
    seen.

    Length and width, it couldn’t have been bigger than a
    AAA battery.

    Unable to control herself, the nurse started giggling, then fell to
    the floor laughing.

    Ten minutes later she was able to struggle to her feet and
    regain her composure.

    “I am so sorry,” she said. “I don’t know what came over me. On my
    honor as a nurse
    and a lady, I promise it won’t happen again. Now, tell me, what
    seems to be the
    problem?”

    “It’s swollen,” Fred replied.

    She ran out of the room.

    Smile :)

  24. Judy Sabatini says:

    Senate Democrats Propose $1.9T Increase to U.S. Debt Limit

    AP

    Senate Democrats on Wednesday proposed allowing the federal government to borrow an additional $1.9 trillion to pay its bills, a record increase that would permit the national debt to reach $14.3 trillion.

    WASHINGTON — Senate Democrats on Wednesday proposed allowing the federal government to borrow an additional $1.9 trillion to pay its bills, a record increase that would permit the national debt to reach $14.3 trillion.

    The unpopular legislation is needed to allow the federal government to issue bonds to fund programs and prevent a first-time default on obligations. It promises to be a challenging debate for Democrats who, as the party in power, hold the responsibility for passing the legislation.

    The record increase in the so-called debt limit is required because the budget deficit has spiraled out of control in the wake of a recession that cut tax revenues, the Wall Street bailout, and increased spending by the Democratic-controlled Congress. Last year’s deficit hit a phenomenal $1.4 trillion, and the current year’s deficit promises to be as high or higher.

    Congress has never failed to increase the borrowing limit, but it will take 60 votes to pass the legislation under an agreement by top Senate leaders.

    Getting 60 votes became more complicated after Sen.-elect Scott Brown’s victory Tuesday in Massachusetts. Democrats will shortly have 59 Senate seats and will need at least one Republican to pass the legislation.

    “We have gone to the restaurant. We have eaten the meal. Now the only question is whether we will pay the check,” said Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont. “We simply must do so.”

    The White House said the increase “is critically important to make sure that financing of federal government operations can continue without interruption and that the creditworthiness of the United States is not called into question,” according to an official policy statement.

    Less than a decade ago, $1.9 trillion would have been enough to finance the operations and programs of the federal government for an entire year.

    Republican Sen. John Thune of South Dakota immediately offered an amendment to end the bank and Wall Street bailout, officially known as the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. Thune would prohibit further expenditure TARP funds and would require that all funds paid back be used to retire debt.

  25. Re: UK and Canadian Gun Laws vs. USA

    The comparison of ‘gun crime’ is not quite accurate.

    The UK may not suffer a lot of shootings – but they suffer, per capita, a substantial higher rate of property crime, petty thefts and assaults.

    So as long as one dismisses one’s brains being beaten out of one’s head or a knife through a throat as a better outcome then having a bullet through it, the UK system is just fine.

    But if one says “No!” to violence – and armed population is a polite population.

    • Sorry flag calling BS on this I am afraid, when we count assaults all of it is counted as violent even when there was no injury to the person, a verbal threat is treated as violent assault. US has 10 times the rapes than the UK does. We had 42 gun deaths in 2008 in the UK compared to around 10,000 in the US.
      According to the FBI…. Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.
      And according to the UK police report…. Much of violent crime is low level violence (such as pushing and shoving) and around half of violent crime does
      not involve any injury to the victim.
      You have nearly four times the homidide rates per capita than the UK does.
      Property crime is slightly higher in the UK than the US I will give you that but it is not the difference you think it is.

      Sorry the stats are not comparable, if we gathered the stats in the same way we could argue, but we dont. I expected better research from you Flag. Please dont use any article from the Daily Mail as a rebuttal.

      • Having said all that the UK is one of the most violent countries in western europe, our crime rates are higher than France, Germany etc and it is a big problem. Trying to paint the UK as a crime ridden hellhole while the US is crime free happy wonderland due to the proliferation of guns is a bit of a fallacy.

        • Bob,

          I can agree with you to a limited degree, the USA is more violent, as you say. Hands down, the US has always been a
          more violent society than the UK, or at least during modern times. What’s interesting is the changes occurring. There is a measurable drop in crime in the US, while the UK’s seems to be rising, and might tie into the anti-gun laws and general government stance against self-defense.

          Hope you won’t demand sources and such, just throwing up my perceptions from news stories I have read over several years. With you living there, I have no doubt who has a clearer picture of current events.

        • Gun violence > Homicides > % homicides with firearms (most recent) by country
          VIEW DATA: Totals
          Definition Source Printable version
          Bar Graph Map

          Showing latest available data.
          Rank Countries Amount
          # 1 Thailand: 79.5805
          # 2 South Africa: 59.2028
          # 3 Colombia: 45.2092
          # 4 Slovakia: 45
          # 5 Guatemala: 42.0706
          # 6 Zimbabwe: 39.6026
          # 7 United States: 39.5604
          # 8 Paraguay: 37.8987
          # 9 Macedonia, Republic of: 35.6164
          # 10 Uruguay: 35.2941
          # 11 Côte d’Ivoire: 33.6982
          = 12 Germany: 28.5714
          = 12 Barbados: 28.5714
          # 14 Portugal: 25.3776
          # 15 Slovenia: 25
          # 16 Belarus: 24.628
          # 17 Mexico: 20.6051
          # 18 Lithuania: 18.3223
          # 19 Hungary: 17.6707
          # 20 Spain: 16.4129
          # 21 Australia: 16.3435
          # 22 Bulgaria: 15.9494
          # 23 New Zealand: 13.4615
          # 24 Czech Republic: 13.4432
          # 25 Estonia: 12.8049
          # 26 Latvia: 11.194
          # 27 Chile: 10.3053
          # 28 Azerbaijan: 7.377
          # 29 Poland: 7.1062
          # 30 Moldova: 5.4348
          # 31 Ukraine: 3.7682
          # 32 Singapore: 2.6316

          Assaults (per capita) (most recent) by country
          VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita
          Definition Source Printable version
          Bar Graph Map

          Showing latest available data.
          Rank Countries Amount
          # 1 South Africa: 12.0752 per 1,000 people
          # 2 Montserrat: 10.2773 per 1,000 people
          # 3 Mauritius: 8.76036 per 1,000 people
          # 4 Seychelles: 8.62196 per 1,000 people
          # 5 Zimbabwe: 7.6525 per 1,000 people
          # 6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
          # 7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people
          # 8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
          # 9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people
          # 10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people
          # 11 Finland: 5.32644 per 1,000 people
          # 12 Iceland: 4.66406 per 1,000 people
          # 13 Tunisia: 4.02561 per 1,000 people
          # 14 Jamaica: 3.95943 per 1,000 people
          # 15 Portugal: 3.59445 per 1,000 people
          # 16 Chile: 3.32476 per 1,000 people
          # 17 Norway: 3.2064 per 1,000 people
          # 18 Netherlands: 2.68964 per 1,000 people
          # 19 Ireland: 2.47037 per 1,000 people
          # 20 Mexico: 2.40275 per 1,000 people

          Burglaries (per capita) (most recent) by country
          VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita
          Definition Source Printable version
          Bar Graph Map

          Showing latest available data.
          Rank Countries Amount
          # 1 Australia: 21.7454 per 1,000 people
          # 2 Dominica: 18.7892 per 1,000 people
          # 3 Denmark: 18.3299 per 1,000 people
          # 4 Estonia: 17.4576 per 1,000 people
          # 5 Finland: 16.7697 per 1,000 people
          # 6 New Zealand: 16.2763 per 1,000 people
          # 7 United Kingdom: 13.8321 per 1,000 people
          # 8 Poland: 9.46071 per 1,000 people
          # 9 Canada: 8.94425 per 1,000 people
          # 10 South Africa: 8.89764 per 1,000 people
          # 11 Montserrat: 8.24323 per 1,000 people
          # 12 Iceland: 8.11156 per 1,000 people
          # 13 Switzerland: 8.06303 per 1,000 people
          # 14 Slovenia: 7.93734 per 1,000 people
          # 15 Czech Republic: 7.24841 per 1,000 people
          # 16 Hungary: 7.15849 per 1,000 people
          # 17 United States: 7.09996 per 1,000 people
          # 18 France: 6.11634 per 1,000 people
          # 19 Ireland: 5.73755 per 1,000 people
          # 20 Netherlands:

          Seems in this case, the more gun control the more burglaries.

          Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country
          VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita
          Definition Source Printable version
          Bar Graph Map

          Showing latest available data.
          Rank Countries Amount
          # 1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
          # 2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
          # 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
          # 4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
          # 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
          # 6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
          # 7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
          # 8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
          # 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
          # 10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
          # 11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people
          # 12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
          # 13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
          # 14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people
          # 15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000

          I really do not see much difference in strict gun control and less in those categories. One could surmise that the difference is, well, not worth the change in laws.

          • Well you have countries like Switzerland where gun ownership is high although if you have a rifle you must account for all ammo used, but have few gun crimes. Then you have Japan which has very strict gun control and have very few gun crimes and violent crimes in general. The difference is purely cultural, I dont think with mass ownership of handguns we would follow the Swiss.

            • How much of the Swiss attitude comes from the requirement of weapons? Since the people are the army, their rule of government is very, very light, and they’re pretty much free to do as they like.

              Japanese are wholly different – one merely has to watch their TV shows.

              • You do know they have pretty strict gun control and registration in Switzerland dont you?

                Japan is okay as long as they keep on pumping out Ninja Warrior and Takeshi’s Castle on TV I will be happy.

      • Much of the violent crime is low level crime? Interesting statement.

        Let see if I understand this. If a larger person than me that has a fist the size of an anvil, brandishes that fist and threatens to beat me to death…this is low level crime? Don’t do that here, in Texas….you ball your fist and threaten…you just brought a fist to a gun fight. You will not do it again. Not low level crime or even high level crime (whatever that is)…Self defense.

        Murders per capita worldwide.

        Rank Countries Amount
        # 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
        # 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
        # 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
        # 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
        # 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
        # 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
        # 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
        # 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
        # 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
        # 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
        # 11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
        # 12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
        # 13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
        # 14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
        # 15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
        # 16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
        # 17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
        # 18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
        # 19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
        # 20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
        # 21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
        # 22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
        # 23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
        # 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
        # 25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
        # 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
        # 27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
        # 28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
        # 29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
        # 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
        # 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
        # 32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
        # 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
        # 34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
        # 35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
        # 36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
        # 37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
        # 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
        # 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
        # 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
        # 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
        # 42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
        # 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
        # 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
        # 45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
        # 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
        # 47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
        # 48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
        # 49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
        # 50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
        # 51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
        # 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
        # 53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
        # 54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
        # 55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
        # 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
        # 57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
        # 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
        # 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
        # 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
        # 61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
        # 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

        Interesting to note: The top 10 countries have some of the most restrictive gun controls ever. More restrictive than USA and England.

        • Glad I dont live in Texas then where you are allowed to kill an unarmed man because of a threat spoken in a heated argument. If I said to you “Im going to kick your ass if you dont back off” that would be classed as a violent assault here in the UK I guess in Texas you would then shoot me right? There is a difference between verbal threats and me breaking every bone in your body with a baseball bat, one is classed as low level assault the other is classed as high level assault. Both count in the assault stats in the UK, do you see the difference?

          • Yes sir, i do see the difference. I am not going to wait until you hit me to respond. If you just verbally threaten me, I will smile at you. The minute your arm is raised…that is intent. I will defend myself before the blow and my defense will be decisive and final. In Texas, intent is entitled to self defense….at whatever the defender considers appropriate. For example, the 82 year old grandmother in Houston. Burglar trying to jimmy the lock on the front door….she did not know the burglar, saw him through a window, calmly called the police and told them that she was going to shoot him….boom….burglar gone, self defense…no indictment…he never made it inside. Gotta love it.

            I got interested in the statistics, tho.

            Total crimes (per capita) (most recent) by country
            VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita
            Definition Source Printable version
            Bar Graph Map

            Showing latest available data.
            Rank Countries Amount
            # 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
            # 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
            # 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
            # 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
            # 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
            # 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
            # 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
            # 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
            # 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people
            # 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people
            # 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people
            # 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people
            # 13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people
            # 14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people
            # 15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people

            I did find that New Zealand was at the top quite a bit. Who would have thought of that? I have been there and it was a really great place. Interesting tho….one of the most strict gun laws.

            But one other thing you need to understand, my across the pond friend, Texas is cattle country. We have self defense of property rights here…even in the cities. If it is surrounded by a fence, don’t cross it. We have the right to deadly force. Goes back to the western days when there were rustlers and bank robbers and such. We still carry rifles (long guns) and shotguns in our cars and trucks. We do not need a license to do so. We can carry handguns (short guns) without a license if in the open (vehicles). And we can carry anything if we are on horseback. The only license we need is to carry concealed weapons. We can still carry the old style six gun in a holster wherever we wish. (Would not go into a bank or Federal bldg tho…they tend to be a bit persnickity).

            And if you wish to check the statistics, Texas has one of the most liberal gun laws and our crime rate has dropped like a home sick brick since the concealed carry law was enacted. May be a bit rough here at times….but we like it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

            Have a great day and a fish and chips fer me.

            • Again with New Zealand its all ablout what gets reported, I have friends in New Zealand who have lived there for years. If not for the wife I would have been over there a decade ago. The vast, vast chunk of those recorded will be petty crime no doubt not even reported in most countries.

              • Probably but they were in the top 20 of most violent crimes as well. Great country tho. Very pretty and so is Australia…but appears to be pretty rough there as well. It is the world.

                Have a great day or what is left of it there….and remember..you kicked us out of your country a long time ago….we were pretty rebellious I guess…. BUT…we, us, Texans are a pretty fiercely independent lot. We like our freedoms….and a lot of us still think we want to go back to being an independent Republic. I actually think we should secede from the United States and apply for foreign aid. Seems to work for everyone else. :smile:

                tip O’ th’ glass to you.

              • And as to guns here….our women can shoot as straight as the men and most kids born to Texans can shoot before they are weaned. :smile:

                Well, maybe weaned is stretching it a might…did have my first gun at age 5 and knew how to use it. Ivers Johnson 4/10 shotgun. Was bird hunting with my dad at age 6. Would not let me load both barrels tho. Could not have a long gun until age 8 (.22) and no hi power weapons until 10 and even then it was a .222 Remington for deer.

                Ok…nuff about guns. Good day, Mate. Wait that is Australia….ummm…what the hell do you say? Oh well, have a great one.

                D13

              • Well most of the problems we have with guns at the moment is people converting replica handguns into ones that actually work, luckily they usually end up blowing off one of their fingers.

                If you were a common northener like me you would say ta ra. Have a good day.

              • Ok..some Texas humor for you.

                Three men sitting around a campfire..one from Texas, one from Oklahoma, and one from Arkansas. Knowing that Texans are known for their bragadocio ways…the man from Oklahoma said….”We are so tough that once I was minding my own business and out of nowhere in the Arbuckle mountains, a pack of wolves attacked me. I had only my knife and it was a fight but I prevailed with hardly a scratch.” Not to be outdone, the man from Arkansas scoffed…” that is nothing. I was riding along when a pack of Arkansas razorbacks attacked me. They killed my horse and I lost my weapons and had nothing but my hands and teeth. It was a hell of a fight but I had pork for dinner.”

                They both looked at the Texan expecting a reply…but the Texan was not interested…just stood there…slowly stirring the coals in the camp fire with his pecker…
                :smile:

            • Bob and D13,

              You’re precisely correct, D13, with your example of the type of country Texas vs UK.

              They are so different – and a weapon in Texas was a requirement to defend against the hostilities of nature and other men.

              UK is too old and too small to remember such days of yonder when such a thing was required by men there too.

              Bob appeals to the stats if they agree with him, and then discounts them (they count too many ‘little thing’ statements) when they don’t.

              So here’s a non-stat for Bob.

              What did these regimes have in common?
              Hitler, Mao, Pot, Stalin?

              Ever wonder why America has never had (yet) such tyrants? Wonder why they want to take away the guns now?

              • Sorry I disproved your point before BF,

                “Bob appeals to the stats if they agree with him, and then discounts them (they count too many ‘little thing’ statements) when they don’t.”

                Just admit you messed up your research Flag after trying to make a statement without understanding the way the stats in both countries are gathered.

                also this is interesting:

                “So as long as one dismisses one’s brains being beaten out of one’s head or a knife through a throat as a better outcome then having a bullet through it, the UK system is just fine.”

                If that is the case we would have comparable homicide rates no? The murders would just be committed with other weapons rather than guns. What are the homicide rates Flag?

                Who is trying to take your guns Flag? When was the last time someone came to your house and demanded your guns, ole slippery slope argument coming?

                What the hell does Hitler, Pot and Stalin have to with gun control issues in the UK? I assume the point you were trying to make is that if the Jews had been armed the holocaust would have never happened? If it is could I borrow your time machine too? I need to tell my younger self that I needed to work towards a medical degree instead of software engineering.

    • of course the second amendment is clear, every american has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall, how could that possibly be misconstrued?

  26. Bob,

    You said “Go on a rant, I posted the link because I thought you would go off on one. I also bet myself that you would include a disparaging comment at the end as well, hmmm think I will reward myself with some chocolate.”

    Did you notice I was responding Todd? How is a a more detailed explaination a ‘rant’? You’ve not responded to my post other than resorting to name calling. And what disparaging comment are you refering to? Are guns not inanimate? Are there not people you are afraid of guns? Or did you take expection to me comparing guns and pencils, which by the way, are also inanimate objects?

    Did you know that chocolate causes diabetes and obesity?

    • http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/

      The FBI recently released information showing that 80% of the violent crime in this country is committed by gang members. We are not gang members! But the image on the left is what the anti-gun bigots see when they think of you as a “gun owners”.

      Gangs and violent crime is not only a law enforcement matter. This violence affects us all and as freedom loving gun owners we should join law enforcement and declare war on violent crime and violent criminals.

      • Careful, there, LOI. Someone might think you’re “going on a rant”, LOL!
        :)

      • This is food for thought for Bob/Todd. With the riots in France, increasing violence in the UK(even if overstated by the MSM), is gang violence not the issue that should be our focus? They are able to get firearms in countries with complete gun bans.

        Guns are not the problem, criminals are.

    • I never called you a name I was just describing your mental state, you do seem very angry most of the time. I really hope you dont have high blood pressure.

      “You can hide behind your gun laws and keep hoping the crimianls don’t hurt you.”

      I assume you were trying to insinuate I live a life of cowardly fear while foolishly believing that I could could never be a victim of violent crime?

      Is that the gist of it, let me know if I am wrong.

      High sugar diets in general lead to diabetes and obesity, that is why I have a balanced diet and exercise so I can enjoy chocolate every now and then. If you eat a chocolate cake each night it will not do you much good which is my top tip for the evening. DO NOT EAT A FULL CHOCOLATE CAKE EACH NIGHT BY YOURSELF!!!.

      • Hi Bob,

        Thought I’d chime in alittle. I’ve read all the gun control posts, and I don’t remember anyone mentioning all the laws that we do have that limits gun ownership and possession. The problem we really have is that we also have many laws that restict regular law abiding citizens from carrying a gun as they wish. Our Cops can’t stop crime, as long as we have so may depending on the government to support them. That is where our worst crime areas are, in the poor innercities that are full of gangs and drugs (drugs are illegal, it does no good).

        I feel, IMHO, if the govt. would stay out of it (gun control) it would allow the citizens to clean things up, but hence, we can’t due to many laws making such action illegal. In fact, one of the cities that used to ban guns completely, Washington D.C., had the worst gun related murder rates in the country. So, I guess it depends on whether a person wants and thinks government is there to protect them, or if a person knows that they are not.

        Peace!

        G!

      • Well Bob,

        You’re right. I do think you live a life of fear of guns. Why do you care we do here in America otherwise?

        And yes, someone IS trying to take our guns If no one is trying take the guns, why have a petition?

        http://www.nagr.org/UNpetition1.aspx?pid=he3b

        I agree! The UN “Small Arms Treaty” is an unacceptable infringment on my right to keep and bear arms!

        I’m glad that the National Association for Gun Rights is standing up for my rights against gun grabbing one-worlders, and I will join you in this critical fight.

        Because stopping the “Small Arms Treaty” will require a flood of grassroots outrage, I will immediately fill out the petition below to my Senators.

        To my United States Senators:

        Whereas: The Obama Administration just announced they would be working with the United Nations to pass a new “Small Arms Treaty;” and

        Whereas: The UN’s “Small Arms Treaty” is nothing more than a massive GLOBAL gun control scheme, designed to register, ban and CONFISCATE firearms from law-abiding citizens; and

        Whereas: The new treaty will likely be designed to FORCE national governments to enact tougher licensing requirements, making law-abiding citizens cut through even more bureaucratic red tape just to buy a firearm legally; and

        Whereas: The United Nation’s “Small Arms Treaty” would also likely ban the trade, sale and private ownership of ALL semi-automatic weapons; and

        Whereas: The ratification of this treaty would also likely create an international gun registry, setting the stage for full-scale gun confiscation;

        Therefore: I urge you to vote AGAINST ratification of the UN’s “Small Arms Treaty.”

        In my opinion guns are no more dangerous than chocolate. Both guns and chocolate are good things when used appropriately.

        • Therefore: I urge you to vote AGAINST ratification of the UN’s “Small Arms Treaty.”

          I would change one word (urge to DEMAND)!

          It will be a long cold snowy day in hell before they take my guns! That, I can guarentee. :evil:

          G!

          • Yep, the good old UN strikes again. I wish we had some politicians that would pull us out of the UN and tell them to go to Hell rather create it here on Earth.

            And mind those emoticons, G-Man. Someone might question your mental state! LOL!!!
            :)

            • CP!

              This has always been my mental state! :) I can’t help it, I’m a warrior, and don’t see much changing. Just smarter!

              Hope you are feeling better!

              G!

              • I’m the same way, brother. I’ve never felt the need to bend over and kiss an ass just because it presented itself for the honor.

                What’s more, I don’t even have the decency to feel bad about it! LOL!

                I’m feeling a little better today. Thanks for asking. I keep sneezing and feel like taking a nap, but I’m making myself a new dress and want to get it finished. The beauty of dial up, is that I can ‘click’ and sew, ‘click’ and sew….must have a sense of humor about these things!
                :)

              • Sewing! Best thing I ever learned in High School. My village is always dressed nice, LOL :lol:

              • Can I invite myself over? I have lots of low-cut dresses. The girls love to show off! :lol:

              • The door is open! :)

              • Its pretty cold in the north here cyndi. Better watch your headlights with those low cuts :)

  27. Bob,

    “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order.”

    ~ Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942, in “Hitler’s Table-Talk at the Führer’s Headquarters 1941–1942,” Dr. Henry Picker, ed. (Athenaeum Verlag, Bonn, 1951)

  28. To G-Man (from above)

    Ah…the power of breasts! ;)

    somehow, its just not as funny way down here, but what the hell…

    • How did you end up there? I spent some time in Iceland, 2 days was too much for me, but I did get to see some really wonderful sights (there are some foxy Icelandic natives :) )

      But the island life was to closed in for me.

      G!

      • I was told about jobs here back in the mid 90s. I even applied but got a job on Ascension Island as a radar operator instead. Ascension Island is the eastern most part of the Eastern Test Range. Fast forward 13 years. I’m divorced, again, and broke, again, and couldn’t keep on keepin’ on and expect not to be homeless. The jobs on the test ranges are a great place to recover from divorce. You don’t pay federal tax on your income below $82,400. You get a room and a meal card as part of your compensation. And when you’re on a small island, you don’t need a car, or have many places to spend your money. Kwaj is part of the Ronald Reagan Test Site. Its alot nicer than Ascension, in my opinion. I two and a half years, I’ve been about to pay off about $15k in debt and get eight months ahead on my mortgage, as well as pay over $300 per month extra on the principle. In addition, I’ve been able to buy several thousand dollars worth of 22k gold jewlery (my FAVORITE!) and almsot 2k in silver coins, and stock up on things should the economy collapse. I’ve also had one really nice vacation, and two mini-vactions. I’ve also managed to get my career back on track. I make well UNDER the $82,400. Now, if I could just lose those extra pounds…..

        • Sounds like you like where your at! That’s a good thing. I divorced in ’95, the ex couldn’t deal with military life. Shit happens, I hold no ill feelings. Got tired of traveling and wanted to just have a home to go to everyday, so here I am where I started. Next move is to the country, where Dad is. A place very close is going up for sale, I’m thinking about using my VA benefits and buy it. I hate where I live. I need the country, full time, that’s where I belong! :)

          G!

          • I’m very happy. In fact, this is the happiest I’ve ever been. Good job, good living arrangement, good man (his politics aside). I’m very blessed.

            I hope you find you’re happiness. I was miserable for a long time. It sucks. You seem like a good guy. Go for it. Find your happiness. :)

            • That’s great! :)

              I’m happy, don’t get me wrong. Winter sucks and tends to get people down around here, we have very little sunshine this time of year. I’m happy cuz I’m not tied down to anything or anyone! I can do as I wish, when I wish, with no questions asked. I’m content with what I do, looking forward to spring so I can get outside, have a few projects to do for hunting/surviving. If someone comes along, thats OK, I’m just not looking now, maybe late summer I’ll be more open to that, for now, I have things to get done.

              It’s good that your happy, enjoy it! :)

              G!

  29. ROTFLMAO!!!! OMG, Anita! That’s too funny! I’ve been tropical for too long. I didn’t even think of that.

    • WHOA!!!!! Wonder what went through his mind at the apex of his jump? Something like…oh sh**, I bet.

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