Dealing with the Fringe Left… Let ’em Go

A short post tonight. I have spent ample time on schoolwork and answer a hockey loving fan who has apparently taken a few too many concussions in the Puppeteer thread. As I find it to be 4:49 am as I start this I will be writing fast and furious so that I can at least get a little sleep. The post I mentioned played right into the conversation that I was having with Revolution2010 this afternoon about the state of our country. I have talked a lot about educating our friends and acquaintances on the facts of government and the agendas out there from the two big parties. I have talked a lot the last couple of nights about the move towards socialism in America. 

The discussion she and I had was about a trip she had to the doctor this morning. She discussed the issues with some ladies and found that they were more than happy with the socialist agenda that is coming out of Washington. They believed that it was a good thing that government is taking big chunks of our money and distributing it to others out there. They think a nationalized health care initiative is overdue, that state run banks, schools, and industry is a healthy thing for America. 

And that is a reality that we are going to be forced to deal with today. That person posting in the other thread really believed in Socialism as a good thing. He actually made the statement that Americans should feel lucky for people like Nancy Pelosi and that we need more like her. We have to face it America, there are those who are so far gone, so media led, and so unable to discuss the issues with an open mind that they cannot be saved. They not only realize that socialism is coming, they welcome it as a better America. 

We are going to have to figure out what to do with that. I realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I recognize their right to feel that way. The right to feel a certain way and express your opinion is a right that we ALL have (unfortunately it simply isn’t a right the this particular commenter felt that we in this forum have earned however). It isn’t earned as a veteran or government worker, or anything else. We are born with that right. And for all the flaws of America today, I am quite proud of the fact that in this country we all have been able to retain that right. We should not have to fight so hard for it, but at least thus far it still remains. I can’t say that will be the case forever at the rate we are going. 

There are many things that BlackFlag and I disagree on. But there are also many things that we do agree on. I think that would be one of them. The right to speak your mind, hold an opinion, express that opinion, is something that we are all born with. While government has often in history tried to take away that right, ours here has at least not succeeded. Communist and Socialist governments, however, have always managed to eventually gain that power.

We have to face the fact that America has changed a lot. The Democrats have spent years and years building us to this point. A country of entitlement, where people actually believe that government is supposed to do everything for us. And undoing that is going to be a difficult task. Because these people have literally been brain-washed into believing that the moves of socialism are a good thing. That they are owed something in life that they don’t earn. It amazes me to hear the things that people are OK with today. 

I don’t believe that these people are the majority, or even close to it. I think they are the fringe. At least the hardcore ones who come right out and say socialism is good and desirable. And we are going to have to have a plan for how we are going to deal with them. Because they will present a very big obstacle to our cause. If you went door to door in your neighborhood, I think you would be amazed at how many of the soccer moms who don’t follow politics are absolutely OK with state run private industry in the future. They are OK with government health care and income redistribution. 

Most of them simply are ignorant to what it leads to or what it all means. Once they are made aware, many of them are going to switch what they believe on the spot and come over to our side. But there will be some who will not. Many of those will simply not even be willing to hear you out and discuss the issue because they are passion driven and debate quickly shows them to be reliant on the media and left wing websites. They don’t want to be exposed as such. More important they don’t want their bubble popped and discussion will lead to their understanding how duped they have been. They aren’t willing to face that yet. 

I propose that we are going to have to simply let those people go for now. It is OK to do so. Because they are not a true threat to us or our cause. They are followers. They lack the ability to think for themselves and have allowed their party and the media dictate to them their beliefs. It was easier than thinking about the issues and dealing with the internal struggles that come with that act. So they are mere followers. And they will follow us when the time comes. They won’t have a choice, they don’t know any other way. So let them go for now.

That is something that I applaud you all for doing here. We have a forum where people are willing to face off on the issues that divide us and be open to the learning that comes from that. So there is my opening salvo in discussing how we deal with the issue of Americans having been trained their whole life that socialism is the way to go. I look forward to all of your thoughts on better ways to deal with them as we move forward.

Advertisements

Comments

  1. I think there may be more of those people than you think. Most major cities are filled with them. I’m not sure that there is a way to stop the years and years of Democrats building us to this point. The Democrats have a huge propaganda machine through the main stream media. I know you believe in peaceful change through the voting process but I don’t think that will work. Peaceful secession, if that’s possible, should be considered. The Free State Project in NH could be a good “test” case for secession.

  2. Thanks for commenting on the “followers”. These folks are not evil but rather completely ignorant to the fact that socialism is best for everybody. Reminds me of reading’Socialism’ in college and coming home to my conservative father and explaining this is what we need. He looked at me like he wanted to yank me out of school and send me into the military. Wow, liberal arts colleges were well on their way to teaching us this garbage as early as thirty years ago. Again thanks for this website as I am new here and want to explore all your resources.

  3. USW, et.al; As we move forward there is something to keep in mind. Birdman alluded to it, the cities are the core. My wife and I had occassion to go east to DC this past year. She had been back to there and other eastern cities the past 3 years. Our conclusion was that the big cities had become so big and for so long that the people are totally dependant on the gov’t, for almost every key service. That was a new experience for us westerners (inland west) where most of our cities would be considered towns by your standards. With a few exceptions, the Liberty loving minded are still a majority. We even distinquish between somethig we call “western democrats” and the eastern variety, which is an old term for what has turned into the progressive movement. The point is if you find older dems, especially in rural areas you will probably find a compatriot.
    For now the metropolitan areas will be almost hopeless. Look where the lefties are in the west–Seattle, Portland, San Fran, LA. Even more northern CA has alot of “conservatives”, mixed with all those old hippies who dropped out 30+ yrs ago.

    We have more like 1000 years of education by the left to overcome. We only think of it in terms of the 60’s cause thats when it boiled over in the Universities. It now purvades the entire public school system, from top to bottom.

    I think we need to find a way to connect with our fellow citizens from a Liberty point of view, not that socialism is a bad economic system doomed to fail. Any form of statism destroys individual liberty, whether the liberal facsism we’ve had for the past 100 years or the socialism we appear to be moving into now. We have not been living under a Capitalist system for over 100 years and somehow we need to get this across to folks. The avg. citizen has been led to believe that the failures of govt controlled enterprise (fascism) is acutally the failure of capitalism. Only the latter allows for individual liberty to exist.

    We have a hell of alot of work to do!!!!!!!
    JAC

  4. I think there are plenty of people are out there who believe the move to Socialism is wrong. Unfortunately they are working 50-60 hour weeks in salary jobs (not low pay) but are so busy that they are not paying attention to the shift in our country. Honestly, who wants to deal with another thing after working long hours and then coming home to try to maintain some type of work place balance? I know….I am guilty of this. I would much rather watch reality TV and have everyone else deal with the current waste voting of our government officials. With that said it doesn’t take that long to read this website and then post an e-mail to a congressman about how we disagree with what is going on. People don’t remember the rise and fall of the USSR…and that is sad. I lived thru it and remember President Regan refusing to accept this socialist agenda as okay. This push helped America recover from the madness of the liberal agenda and drove private business to determine the fair market value.

    Anyone who works in business will send between 10-200 e-mails a day. Even if you don’t send e-mails at work, you come home and get on your computer and send messages to your friends. How much of a stretch is it to add the e-mail addresses of our leaders to our “Favorites” and send them an e-mail everyday? At most, it takes 2 minutes. Ask your leaders why they are voting to take a piece of what you worked your tail off to earn? Our success is based on the downright will to succeed and this is the American dream, not a state run country that we are turning to.

  5. Concerned4USA says:

    It seems that a fairly simple observation is being overlooked.
    Take a look at a ‘by county’ election map: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/campaign08/election/uscounties.html

    In many of those counties, it is not a matter of socialism it is a matter of welfare. Those counties in blue have generally higher levels of people already on government assistance.
    For example, that blue line from SC to MS is called the ‘Black Belt’ (originally because of its highly fertile land). That line represents specifically the poorest counties in those states, and some of the poorest counties in the United States.

    The point is, someone that is already on assistance is going to vote themself a pay raise, not bite the hand that feeds them.

    IT may be possible to ignore for now the ‘ideologues’, but those on government assistance provide a clear obstacle to a return to a democratic republic – as evidenced in the last election.

  6. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, not every opinion is equally valid.

    It is not OK to “redistribute” wealth. That is the definition of “theft” even if it is done by the state (in which case it is “socialism”).

    Theft hurts innocent people. In the long run it even hurts the recipients of the stolen loot. Any action that causes harm to innocent people is evil.

    That doesn’t mean that the people who advocate or “benefit” from such things are necessarily evil; they may be unaware of the consequences of their positions. Once it is pointed out to them, if they cling to their support of theft, then they are crossing over into the “personally evil” territory.

    This is, unfortunately, not something the Democrats have a monopoly on. Neither “mainstream” party has a fundamental problem with socialism, just disagreements on how to implement it “best” for the most “common good”.

  7. Guy Lafleur aka Jean Beliveau says:

    US ~ we are not the minority – remember – we won the election – we have a clear mandate and should use it to the fullest extent possible and create as much permament change as we can as quick as we can. I would recommend that you read up on three things: complex systems, and the case studies of Brazil (pre and post IMF assistance and Real stabilization) and specifically the India infrastructure projects. Boo hiss on this other crap – you can’t have you cake and eat it too. Remember when there was an attempt to privatize the ports? Were you one of those people screamin that ‘in no way can we give control of the ports to foreigners’ but offered no domestic solution?

    And JAC – we let the banks step on the gas pedal as hard and long as they wanted to and look what happened?

    • If you are the majority and you have a mandate, then why the hurry to “use it to the fullest extent possible and create as much permament change as we can as quick as we can.” You have all the time in the world. You are the majority. You will obviously then be reelected over and over and over, so you can take your time. Or is the reality that you know that you aren’t the majority, that you got elected by fooling the American public, and that you had better hurry up and pass permanent laws as quickly as you can before they wake up and realize what you are doing. A government that thought it had the mandate of the people wouldn’t have passed a stimulus bill in 11 hours after promising the people 48 hours to read it. They didn’t want Americans to realize what was in there and the move towards your wacky version of the future. You are full of contradictions in your arguments here Guy. That doesn’t bode well for you arguing on a site of logical thinkers and people wanting honest debate.

      Your comment to JAC… you also have fallen for that whole “Bush’s deregulation caused the world to crumble” argument I see. Please stick around. If you haven’t noticed I write a blog that spends a lot of time de-bunking the left wing media’s versions of the truth. Seeing that you are buying them hook, line, and sinker and using them as your talking points, you are going to be easy pickins…

  8. Guy Lafleur aka Jean Beliveau says:

    Wealth has been redistrubuted ever since the first collection plate went down the aisle – get over it.

    • Wealth has been redistrubuted ever since the first collection plate went down the aisle – get over it.

      Yes, except that collection plate was voluntary. Your arguments continue to ring hollow. You are sounding very much like Keith Olbermann, LOL.

  9. USW
    Great post. I disagree with you on several points. I think very few people ( as a percentage)are aware of our move to socialism. I think the majority are uninformed on the issues. They are reliant on the media, but we can not let them go. Most people get their news in one minute or less soundbites. Almost all of the media has shown a leftist bias that is blatant and easily proven. Obama was elected by deliberate misinformation. I heard a “news” report saying he was a moderate on gun control. I have asked a lot of people what they think on issues, and their response frequently is a vague remembrance of what CNN told them to think. Most people BELIEVE Bush/Republicans caused the financial meltdown. A gay friend thought this and did not know who Barney Franks is nor about Freddy/Fannie.
    I have a somewhat vague ideal/plan. The end goal is to get more balanced reporting from a higher percentage of the media. The reason for that is to get Bob Barr and Ron Paul in the next debate with Jindal and Obama.
    I have mentioned http://www.selectsmart.com before. If you and most of the conservative blogs would use this or ONE site like it to help consolidate information on candidates, it would bring focus to the issues and fight the misinformation. If more people had run a comparison match between McCain/Obama, we might not be turning socialist as fast as they can write the checks.
    USWeapon, your mission, if you chose to accept. Contact a number (top 10 maybe)of conservative web sites and propose you/they pick a candidate match site that best serves our needs. Make the site a prominent link or feature on each blog. If enough sites will do this, I think it will generate more attention and awareness. And again, we are fighting deliberate misinformation, comparable to cold war USSR. I tried a selection site at one of the media’s, and found OBAMA was a MATCH for me!
    And a final plug for GOOOH. I will happily support a Libertarian, Republican or even Democrat, if they represent my values. But I feel getting away from all parties would be best for America.
    I hope for a reply/endorsement from Revolution2010

    • Illusion,

      I think I wasn’t clear enough on what I meant on that point. I wasn’t saying that we just let everyone go. You are right that there are a lot of people who don’t understand what is going on. Those are the targets! The people you were describing were the exact people we want to educate. If they get it and that is what they want they are entitled to that belief. But I think once they learn the truth they will not feel the same way. The people that I was advocating letting go were only the real fringe folks, like Guy here. They are sold out to that agenda and lack the ability, for now, to think for themselves and see the truth. So long as they are in this mode, we are wasting our time discussing things with them. They aren’t interested in learning and understanding. Remember that my revolution is about education and embracing of those from the other points of view in order to find a middle ground that is best for the country. People like Guy are not interested in doing so, therefore the hours I would absolutely waste in discussing it with him can be spent better talking about it with rational folks. Wise time management is what I am talking about. Know which folks are interested in learning and understanding. I advocate spending 5 minutes talking to anyone about it. That is time spent feeling them out. If they are a lost cause for now, move on and find another person who wants to be rational. Folks like Guy will come around, when they are ready, they will find us, we won’t have to find them.

      I do like your suggestion about the sites. I am looking into it. I can’t promise a fast answer, but I am trying to find a good one.

  10. Guy
    You have sold your soul, hope you got a good price.

  11. “we are not the minority – remember – we won the election – we have a clear mandate and should use it to the fullest extent possible and create as much”

    You are living under a mistaken idea. Only a majority of VOTERS voted for your socialism kleptocracy. That is a small minority of the people who live in America after you realize how many government doesn’t allow to vote due to age, “criminal records”, ID confusion, and residency confusion. Then of those allowed to vote, only a fraction actually do. But, go ahead and ACT as though your side has a “mandate”. The results may surprise you. An evil act is still evil even if the majority supports it. That is the inconvenient part of having principles.

    “we let the banks step on the gas pedal as hard and long as they wanted to and look what happened?”

    Really? Here I thought the government, with the help of the Federal Reserve, set the rules and even mandated some dishonest banking practices like “fractional reserve”. I thought the feds mandated that banks make loans to people who obviously wouldn’t be able to repay those loans. But you say it was all the banks’ fault.

  12. Kent:

    Kleptocracy, as in rule by thieves. I like that word – thank you for using it so well!

    Guy, I am under the distinct impression that you do not give a significant percentage of your income to food banks or emergency aid organizations. As for “redistributing” via the collection plate…I voluntarily give what I decide I can afford, to those organizations that I decide are worthy of a percentage of my income. Most conservative people feel that way. That is why as a group we contribute the most to charitable causes. As an aside, have you ever lived or worked in Brasil? I certainly have no desire to return.

  13. G. A. Rowe says:

    USW;

    “If you went door to door in your neighborhood, I think you would be amazed at how many of the soccer moms who don’t follow politics are absolutely OK with state run private industry in the future.”

    That hits the nail on the head! MOST of the average folks here in this country get up in the morning, go to work, come home and watch “American Idol”, “Survivorman”, or some other mundane nonsense. A very long time ago, back in the days of silent movies, there was a movie made that depicted the state of humans in the year 2000 . . . The scene was the same, people drudging off to work, standing for eight hours flipping widgits on an assembly line, drudging home and eating the same meal served by an equally mundane and bored spouse. This was done day in and day out ad infinitum, all under the watchful eyes of a government who always knew what was best for the people. Much later, during the sixties I think, Charlton Heston stared in another film almost like the one I just described, this one was titled “Soylent Green”.

    My wife gets upset about my political activism. Tells me that there is nothing I can do, that I am only one man and that only one man cannot possibly make a difference. It takes me an awfully long time to get her to understand what is going on with all this wild spending and slight of hand motions that is being done. Like the average American, she does not want to have to deal with it. The sheer flurry of the actions by this administration have overwhelmed her and she just can’t keep up with all of it. Just like most of the folks here in our small town have thrown in the towel, “They will do whatever they want” they say, “and there is nothing we can do about it.”

    That is the kind of defeatism that the Liberal/Socialist/Communists want us to adopt. That is what we have to fight against. We can succeed, we can win. We must take it one step at a time. And for those who think that an armed revolution is the answer, well I am here to tell you that is exactly the wrong thing. Why? Because we will be playing right into the hands of our enemy. That will give them the ammunition to prove to the rest of this country that we are the evil ones. No, we must take a page out of their playbook. Turn their weakness onto them by using what they think is their strength, their momentum, and let them show their true colors.

    This weekend there has been a bunch of “Tea Party” meetings around the country, along with the CPAC conference. People are getting fed up with all this wild spending, all the lies from the liberals. What we need to do is bring the lies to the forefront. Glaringly show the rest of America just how they have been duped, and how they are being ripped off by the so-called Liberals and specifically by obummer.

    I am attending a community meeting tonight in my small town. We have issues with the local Native Americans over a road that they use that goes through our community. All we want is for them to be good neighbors and contribute to the maintenance and safety improvements since they benefit most from that particular road. Sounds simple, doesn’t it? Unfortunately, they have been told for generations now that they do not have to help with or contribute to anything outside their reservation – That the government will give them anything and everything that they need. They have been conditioned to be “Recipients”, and they have a very hard time thinking otherwise. It has taken a very long time to get them into that attitude, and it will take them a long time to get rid of that attitude, but it can be done. We need to use the Native American dilemma as an example to show how poisonous socialism can be to a society.

    We here in our small rural community are helping educate the members of the local tribe as best we can, and we are making progress, but it is a long and hard journey. This country has been led around by the nose for so long, that it will take a long time to get them to shed that nose ring. I still have heated arguments with my family back home, they are all dyed in the wool democrats and liberals to the hilt. Have been since FDR rammed his “New Deal” down their throats. FDR was the “Messiah” of the thirties. He rammed so much into law so fast that it made folks head swim.

    I am rambling on. Gotta stop this. I hope those who read this can make some sense out of it. BTW, Guy; Get your head out of your rectum and clear your sinuses out so that you can smell the real stench of your socialist pals!

  14. Guy Lafleur aka Jean Beliveau says:

    Rowe – thanks – I do actually give away most of my money – I was born and raised on a reservation (I am native american) and rasied with an ideal of community rather than the individual. Ours was one of the few communities not ravaged by alcoholism and then casino gambling. We looked after the entitity of the community including those less fortunate, less able, less educated and yes – even sometimes less motivated. Sounds ‘tribal’ and old school but it worked. I know how to leave meagerly, enjoy minimal trappings of technology and feed my mind rather than cluttering my house and life with shit I really do not need. I give to my Church, my family, my friends, my tribe and whereupon my government (Federal, State or Local) asks more of me I give as well. I don’t always agree that they spend it wisely, but neither so do others I give my money to.

    I lived and worked in Brasilia around a dozen times in the last fifteen years and did one volunteer mission. The country has come very far both with a without FDI.

  15. Guy Lafleur aka Jean Beliveau says:

    LOI – I didn’t sell my soul I gave it away. I have very little money and own very few possessions that could be liquidated for money. When I am too old to work and pay my bills my family will help me as I have helped them.

  16. Guy Lafleur aka Jean Beliveau says:

    US – my metaphor was simply that even hundreds of years, prior to the ideas of a free market there has always been a redistrubution of wealth. Be it in Roman, Mayan, or Biblical times. My own ancestors that have lived in this land far longer than the white or black man have long redistributed our individual wealth and have always been quite content and happy. Most people I’ve met outside the reservation simply never had that mindset and can never understand or comprehend it.

  17. Guy Lafleur aka Jean Beliveau says:

    For the record – I only believe that Bush’s failure to act contributed to the mess we’re in now. CNBC has done some rather objective pieces on this. The initial ideals set in motion long before Bush were virtuous – the free market and lack of guidance just screwed it all up.

  18. I have no gripe with those who are generous with their own money. My disagreement is with those who are “generous” with other peoples’ money.

  19. Concerned4USA says:

    FTR [For the Record]
    President Bush was elected to office in 2000.
    Fox News, Sept 2008 produced a piece showing the timeline of the meltdown of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

    and of course the 2004 congressional hearings et-al on the subject:

  20. Hello,

    I’m new here and am very much enjoying the fact that there are still some sane folks around to hopefully join together and save our country.

    I have some random thoughts/concerns to mention.

    1.) I consider income tax (all tax for that matter) outright theft for the simple reason that we have “taxation without representation”. All we REALLY HAVE is a right to vote into office the candidates of our choice that do a great job of representing an agenda that threatens our freedom and constitutional rights (Republicans AND Democrats alike, with Democrats being the worst.) “OUR” representatives cater to lobbyists, PACs, and even OPEC (yes OPEC lobbies our congress with MILLIONS of dollars). The audacity of both parties to ignore the wishes of the majority is proof of TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION, they have no fear of, nor accountability to, the voting citizens of the USA. Illegal immigration is tolerated, even ignored by the government. The outcry about the bailouts was ignored, they did as they wished and can not account for the money that is GONE. Then they did it AGAIN!!!

    Through much of our country’s history, there was NO INCOME TAX. The government collected other taxes to support itself, income tax was suppose to be temporary during the Civil War, and then again during WW1. The biggest mistake the American people made was letting the government into their paychecks, taking it’s share even before we get ours. This provided the government massive, almost endless funds to pee away. Even worse, it gave the government the means to become even more corrupt, powerful and controlling. Right then and there we transferred the power “of the people” to the government. Does ANYONE even question the “right” of the government to help themselves to our paychecks? No, we just wonder about what % they are going to take, as if the government has an inherent right to our livelihoods. We don’t even question withholding, we just take what is left over and do the best we can with it. We act as if the government is extending us a great favor by postponing taxes on IRAs and 401K plans….as if it is really THE GOVERNMENT’S money to begin with!

    2.) I posted in the “About/Contact the Author” link about my worry regarding the NAIS (National Animal Identification System) that is being developed and implemented by the USDA. As a farm raised Midwesterner, I have grave concerns about this program that makes every single livestock owner accountable to the USDA for every single animal on their premises (Premises registration into a government database will also be required). You may say “what’s the big deal”? Well….

    Think about it. If the government can track (think RFID tags and GPS) all our meat supply (and that even includes horses, llamas, peacocks, etc) they can also control it. Look at the bigger picture, the long term.

    For many years there has been talk of a “cashless” society. In that case, EVERY SINGLE PENNY can be electronically tracked and CONTROLLED! (we are nearly there, now getting extremely worrisome with nationalizing of our banks). To survive the control of the entire financial system of the USA, BY THE GOVERNMENT, people would resort to a barter system. What would be the biggest barter item?…FOOD!

    You may ask, meat is only part of the food supply, what about produce and grain? Anyone notice all the food poisoning cases the past 2-3 years? Notice how long it takes the FDA to track down the source?
    Do you get disgusted by the slowness of the process? So do I, but I think it is a deliberate tactic to make the case for tracking produce and grain as well….then you have the entire food supply accounted for. I expect even home gardeners to be required to report what they raise and how they use it, and to be taxed on the value of the garden crops to pay for the “expense of keeping us safe from…OURSELVES!” (There is an agricultural census that already collects massive amounts of data like this).

    Keep in mind the NAIS has been in the works for YEARS, chugging along under the radar, through BOTH DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN administrations.

    There has been talk of combining the USDA & FDA…what you will have is a government organization on steroids!

    Control the money & food supply > control the people.

    Now, pull all this together in a scenario of civil unrest and martial law. Throw in gun and ammunition control. Pieces of a puzzle coming together perhaps?

    3.) The FBI is proposing a palm print and eye scanning system to “identify” all U.S. citizens (Maybe they should identify all NON U.S citizens first?)…estimated implementation? About 10 years. The FBI requested hiring 1000 additional agents last year, any connection here?

    For now, they are pushing the “REAL ID” national identification system. All this in the name of “keeping us safe”. Can anyone say BORDER SECURITY? How about we deal with that, kick out the ILLEGAL immigrants and leave US citizens ALONE?

    4.) Converting to socialism and communism has been a slow process. Generation by generation, our rights and privacy have been eroded. Successive generations have no idea what freedoms they have lost, because they never had them.

    I remember my Grandpa, born in the 1890’s,a veteran of WW1, pounding his fist on the kitchen table, ranting about the government’s increasing intrusions on our freedom and privacy….about excessive taxes, about welfare. As a 18 yr. old kid, I thought Grandpa was going overboard a bit, perhaps getting a little senile.

    Now I know Grandpa was a great patriot, perfectly sane, very wise, and rightfully upset.

    Thanks for considering my 2cents worth.

  21. G. A. Rowe says:

    Dee,

    You are not alone. I have noticed that the “Pet Chip” to track lost pets is gaining momentum in the southwestern states. I have a special needs grandson on the east coast that my daughter has repeatedly refused to have one of those types of chips implanted in him or her 125 lb German Shepherd that has literally adopted that boy. I understand about the recent food poisoning investigations since I am a peanut butter fanatic (my grandchildren agree with me that any food is good as long as peanut butter can stick to it). I wondered how it was that our government could track a cow from birth to its barn in a matter of hours, but still can’t find Bin Laden. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out which company supplies what products to a set of consumers – Telemarketers do that on a daily basis. Its as simple as the tracking cookies on our computers – Has anyone noticed that you cannot remove tracking cookies from the newest Microsoft software? They are automatically “ignored” by any and all virus removal programs.

    I know that I am sounding a little like a paranoid alarmist, but these facts are just getting harder and harder to ignore. BHO is calaiming to be the first “connected” president, ie his so-called hack proof blackberry.

    My stepfather refused to have a telephone or television in our house when I was growing up. Claimed that they both were an invasion of our privacy. I just wonder what he would think of computers and video instant messaging that my wife and I do with our children and grandchildren.

    Anyway, glad to see you here.

  22. G. A. Rowe,

    Thanks for the feedback. I had just been reading your post above before I found it.

    I don’t think you sound like a paranoid alarmist at all. Matter of fact, I have to tell you I’ve been worrying about myself a bit that way…but like you say, hard to ignore the facts.

    I have in the past discounted conspiracy theories, but I am beginning to wonder now, the way things are going.

    One thing I wonder about: Has anyone heard of concentration camps being built on remote military bases? Complete with large ovens and razor wire fences? Even in Canada? I know how crazy that sounds, but….

    The first thought I had when I heard that NObama was pulling troops out of Iraq was, “Yep, so he can turn them on dissenters when the s*** hits the fan here.”

    Our founders had to fight for their freedom once, we may have to again. That thought makes me sick, I sure hope I’m wrong.

  23. G. A. Rowe says:

    Dee,

    (1)”One thing I wonder about: Has anyone heard of concentration camps being built on remote military bases? Complete with large ovens and razor wire fences? Even in Canada? I know how crazy that sounds, but….” Nope. I am a retired Marine and I still have contacts out there, and believe me if anything like that were happening I would know about it. This ain’t NAZI Germany yet!

    (2)”The first thought I had when I heard that NObama was pulling troops out of Iraq was, “Yep, so he can turn them on dissenters when the s*** hits the fan here.”” Again, I am a retired Marine. My Son and my Granddaughter are in the Corps, a Nephew in the Army. Believe me when I say this – EVERY American military man or woman has the absolute right to refuse an order that he or she knows is an illegal order, and turning our combat military on to unarmed American Civilians is an ILLEGAL order of the highest magnitude! They just won’t do it. Period.

    (3)”Our founders had to fight for their freedom once, we may have to again. That thought makes me sick, I sure hope I’m wrong.” That is exactly what we are doing here. Only this is how we are doing it, by waking up America and showing everybody that we can what is being done behind our backs and under the table. An armed revolt will only give them ammunition to show everyone else that we are the bad guys, and then remove all of our second amendment rights. We can fight them by spreading the truth, and that hurts them much more than any bullet will. They fear the truth because all of their policies are based on nothing but lies – skillfully couched to look like almost the truth, a well known tactic of the pathological liar. Hang in there, Dee, We all here are on the same side. We just need to get our numbers to grow.

    Way past my bedtime. God bless & good night – er, morning?

  24. Thanks, G.A. Rowe,

    You made me feel a bit better anyway:)

    Now, for the numbers.

    I do not see NON Obama voters swinging his way, that number should remain fairly stable for the next election.
    Out of those that voted FOR him, how many will wake up? Surely enough to get him out in 4 years?

    With talking heads like Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. riding his butt, he won’t be able to hide much. Did anyone see the soundbite of Alan Keyes shown on Hannity? To paraphrase: “Obama has a communistic agenda and if people don’t wake up, he will destroy this country.” How refreshing, coming from a black man, Bless him.

    What to do with the rest of Washington? As an independent leaning pretty far to the right, I’m not all that impressed with the Republicans either. Many congressional Republicans have been in office for decades, at times had control of the White House, Senate and House, and still we see a slower, but steady lose of Liberty.

    Washington is a huge manure pile in desperate need of a scoop shovel. Most of the status quo needs to be pitched, salvage the ones that are worth keeping, if any. With both parties backing their candidate with loads of money, how do we EVER get rid of them?

    A grass roots write-in campaign is the only way I can think of. In order for that to work we would have to be willing to let go of pet left and right issues and find a middle ground long enough to vote in some good common sense people that have enough guts to do what is right.
    In my opinion these are priorities for the survival of our country:

    1.) Strong defense. Without this everything else is a moot point.

    2.) A new tax system. BURN the 16,000 page income tax code. Develop a simple, but fair tax system, but do not tax income. Finally realize that the more money left with individuals the better.

    3.) Cut Federal government to the bone. Start with ACORN.

    4.) Give illegal aliens 90 days to clear out. After that, round em up and deport. Impose a 5 yr. prison sentence to all that come back. Double the sentence for employers that hire them. (Don’t think we would have to worry about filling our prisons, do you?)

    5.) Study the health care systems of the world, and find a combination of all of them that works for us. The current system is broken, wasteful, and corrupt with fraud. Medical care is often unaffordable even for those with insurance. Insurance itself is often unaffordable. There has to be a better way. The free market system works great for goods/services that are OPTIONAL. Health care, to a large degree is not in that category. If it is something you can die for a lack of, it becomes a necessity. Not a right, but still a necessity.

    6. ) Get off foreign oil. Ramp up natural gas and coal to fuel technology to bridge the gap to VIABLE new energy technology. Get on it YESTERDAY.

  25. Dee and others regarding the FEMA camps.

    The story is that FEMA is looking at various underutilized or closed military bases/installations as possible evacuation sites for large number of folks during disasters. This is not new. Bases in Texas had been pre-identifed during the county and state disaster preparedness plans before Katrina and Rita. When Rita made its move those evacuted were directed to those bases per the plans prepared in advance. My wife was assigned to one of those bases handling logistics and as govt rep to the local govt angencies. For those from that part of the world you might like to know that she felt the local counties and churches not only had it together but blew the Feds out of the water with regard to quick response and organization. They got the job done–BETTER.

    Why? That old addage embedded in our founding documents. Problems are best solved close to home. Decentralization.

    The FEMA camp issue is one of those things that has a plausible and logical explanation. Something we should be applauding, ie actual planning in advance of the disaster. But it provides a great example of how unconnected events can be connected by conspriacy folks to tell a story they have already accepted.

    I ran smack into this at a meeting yesterday in fact. The FEMA camps and the fact that our military conducts joint training with foreign troops on US soil has now become a plan for the foreign take over of the country with us freedom loving folks herded into these camps. You see US–its not just the crazy lefties that we need to stop wasting time on. I only wish it hadn’t taken me a year to find out how far out this group was. At least I might be able to recognize the signs sooner next time.

    To All: Happy March 1st and may the warm breeze of spring soon blow your way.
    JAC

  26. “EVERY American military man or woman has the absolute right to refuse an order that he or she knows is an illegal order, and turning our combat military on to unarmed American Civilians is an ILLEGAL order of the highest magnitude! They just won’t do it. Period”

    Explain New Orleans after Katrina, then.

  27. G. A. Rowe says:

    Kent;

    WAKE UP, my friend! Gang bangers shot at news helicopters and rescure helicopters. When you are part of a rescue operation it is not a good thing to get shot at!

    The fault of what happened in New Orleans is directly attributed to the imbecilic Mayor of New Orleans. And the people of New Orleans RE-ELECTED him!

    Red Cross workers who went down there were shot at, robbed and beaten by the denizens of New Orleans. One was gang raped.

    Don’t blame what happened there on the U.S. Military, those men did their level best to rescue those folks. BTW – NO ONE has ever been charged with the shootings, beatings, or rapes of the Red Cross workers that I know of!

  28. So, the peacable people who were not shooting at ANYONE, yet happened to mention that they were able to take care of themselves, and were then beaten and disarmed on camera were to blame for the actions of bad people who were shooting at, beating, and raping Red Cross workers?

    Look, if there are bad people in some neighborhoods who are attacking rescue workers, then get the rescue workers out of the area and To Hell With those who attack their helpers. If you are shot at, shoot back at the guilty person ONLY. That is not an excuse to violate the Constitution and basic human rights by disarming those who are not part of the problem. Never.

    There is no situation so horrific that it can’t be made orders of magnitude worse by stirring in a little government “help”.

  29. G. A. Rowe says:

    Kent, were you there? I wasn’t so all the information I have is from some of the red cross workers that I happen to know who were there, and of course what I saw during the live news casts from the major news networks and the weather channel live reports.

    I have never seen or heard of anyone beaten and disarmed “on camera” during the Katrina debacle. However, the scenes at the superdome that were televised I thought were disgusting. I put the blame directly on the New Orleans Mayor for that one.

    And yes, FEMA needs to share the guilt as well. The absolute truth is this – There is no way in hell that any weather related event can be accurately predicted. If FEMA would have over reacted, then they would have been blamed for excessive spending and excessive evacuations. Either way it was a lose – lose situation. Kinda like being a cop in L.A., damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

    If you know of any websites that have videos of what you posted, please post them here as I would very much like to see them.

  30. I can’t believe you missed it, but you may not be as interested in human rights as I am.

    “The Great New Orleans Gun Grab”

    Video

    Another video

  31. G. A. Rowe says:

    Kent,

    First I want to say that I understand what it is you are trying to get across.

    Now I ask you to understand what I am trying to get across.

    BOTH videos show what happened AFTER rescue workers were shot at. The “Little old lady”? She had the audacity to actually point her handgun at those officers. The film was cut, rather expertly, to just get the officers taking her down. Had that been a rookie, she might have been killed.

    The first one is a book for sale for $19.95, or therabouts. All, including the ABC video, are decidedly one sided.

    You said that you are a UFO loving skeptic. I ask that you apply the same skepticism toward this “evidence” as you would to someones UFO video and “close encounter” story. In other words, be objective.

    I am a gun owner. I support gun ownership to the extent that I honestly believe that if all law abiding adults who have never been convicted of a felony should be able to carry a fully loaded concealed firearm anywhere in this country, violent crime would very soon be at a minimum due to the fact that street gangs would be the first to meet their end . . . followed closely by home invasion robbers and then stick up artists. Purse snatchers would just vanish into the night like the cowards they are, as well as pick pockets.

    Anyone who has the stupidity to point a gun at a cop and say “Yeah I have a gun” . . . Well, not in this day and age.

    The ABC video, I think, mentioned that New Orleans deteriorated into anarchy with armed thugs and the like roaming freely shooting up the place. Who were law enforcement going to trust? Just because someone says they are law abiding doesn’t mean that they are. And since most of New Orleans “finest” flew the coop with their illustrious Mayor, yes the state had to rely on law enforcement provided from other states and the national guard Military Police battalions, which most of who were never trained in civilian law enforcement tactics and procedures.

    Orders from the Governor were to disarm everybody, and ABC CHOSE NOT to show the encounters with street gangs.

    I also know that I will not change your mind, no matter what I say.

  32. That woman would have been within her rights to shoot the home-invaders-with-badges. Why were they in her home after she had told them she did not want or need to be rescued? She did NOT point the gun at them. Did you see how she was holding it?

    This is how I know the disarmament will be justified. Thugs going where they are not invited, escalating a situation until they cause something to happen, then their apologists will say they did what was reasonable under the circumstances “even though I am a gun owner” etc.

    I gave you two examples of videos, one from each side of the authoritarian end of the political spectrum, and yet you say they only show “one side” of the story. If I had posted an example from the libertarian end of the spectrum, it would have been dismissed as “anti-government propaganda”. That’s why I didn’t bother with those.

    Where in the Constitution does it authorize the actions that led to armed troops being in that woman’s house in the first place?

    I AM a skeptic, and I do apply that skepticism to the situation and have decided government is the thing that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

    This is why government can NEVER be trusted with any power.

  33. USW and the rest of the fired up:
    Remember, if it comes down to it, the US revolution was only supported by 1/3 of the populace at the time. There was 1/3 still supporting the old system, and 1/3 that basically abstained. There are many who will switch once they are educated, there are many more who will cling to their position of socialism because they don’t have the courage to face the truth, and they will fight to not have to face it. They want the fountain of youth that socialism promises.

    Guy:
    I love charity. It is a powerful part of social interaction. I love those who put their fellowman and even their community first. Fact is, a lot of people that support socialist thinking have the right motivation. I like the individual, but I still think that looking out for those in need is important. I see the benefits of the old and infirm, we need their experience and wisdom. I see the need for looking out for the handicapped, not just to be decent humans, but to find gems like Stephen Hawking. I know that the man who is down right now may still be a valuable person. I know that sometimes, especially since I have been down myself, that the guy who is down is down because he took a risk. He gambled on a business idea or an invention and he lost. One of the next times he tries, he might turn out to be the next Thomas Edison.

    The thing is, charity is worth nothing if it is forced or coerced. Charity needs to be from the heart to have any real meaning. Charity needs to be a personal decision. Charity is something that allows people to see first hand who they are helping, and know if they are being taken advantage of. It is just like the free market, a personal transaction between two parties. If one side commits fraud, it is at the discretion of the victim to never deal with that party again. When the government does it, that flexibility is lost. Also, the receiver of charity sees the face of the giver, they appreciate the sacrifice being made, and they have hope in their fellow man. The faceless government with seemingly bottomless pockets has no personal touch, and it wins the hearts of the needy, while turning them against those that are paying for their so-called charity.

    Government charity is evil, it is theft from the successful and it hardens the heart of those it is supposed to be helping. It takes away their hope and their will to work, and it destroys them. Do not confuse charity with government safety nets and “help” programs. They are nothing alike.

  34. Jon Smith: You get the blue ribbon if I get a vote. Ayn Rand in plain English!

  35. Black Flag says:

    Dee

    1.) Strong defense. Without this everything else is a moot point.

    How much money are you wanting to steal spend for this – remembering that the USA spends more on the military then the entire rest of the world combined….

    2.) A new tax system. BURN the 16,000 page income tax code. Develop a simple, but fair tax system, but do not tax income. Finally realize that the more money left with individuals the better.

    This will never happen.

    You sit with the mistaken belief that taxation is a revenue tool for government.

    It is a policy manipulation tool.

    By making somethings tax breaks, the government artificially changes the economics of that particular good or service – for political, not economic, reasons.

    A simple tax code denies such a use – therefore, the tax code will get more complex, not less, in the future so to allow greater manipulation.

    3.) Cut Federal government to the bone. Start with ACORN.

    Where?

    No matter where you cut, you will hurt a significant part of the population.

    All programs are broad-based, any attempt at eliminating any program will enrage some segment of the population. Thus, no program can be cut without creating a huge political backlash.

    This is by design.

    4.) Give illegal aliens 90 days to clear out.

    Immigration made this country great.

    Now you want to jail them.

    Why?

    5.) Study the health care systems of the world, and find a combination of all of them that works for us.

    Health is no different than any other goods or services.

    The Free Market is the best and optimum system.

    The free market system works great for goods/services that are OPTIONAL. Health care, to a large degree is not in that category.

    I guess we need to nationalize grocery stores, because (I guess, unlike you) I kinda need to eat everyday.

    The free market works for all goods and services, no exception.

    Why do you feel you have a right to demand someone else pay for your health care?

    6. ) Get off foreign oil. Ramp up natural gas and coal to fuel technology to bridge the gap to VIABLE new energy technology. Get on it YESTERDAY.

    Again, the point is missed here, too.

    The US has ample, local, natural resources.

    It is the plan not to use them – for a reason (whether that reason continues in the future, that is a different question).

    Oil is considered a strategic resource. After WW2, the plan was to use foreign oil, and keep domestic oil (in case of global war).

    So in peace time, eat up all the foreign oil – so that in war time, all local reserves are unused.

    There is, at this time, no reason for the USA to change this attitude.

    They are giving foreigners worthless greenbacks for real oil. As long as the greater fools accept the greenbacks, this is a brilliant plan (if you’re the USA).

    Do not plan that this will change in the near and mid-term.

  36. Rush Limbaugh is the clear leader of the Republican Party. He is the undisputed head of the new GOP. Rush Limbaugh for President, Sarah Palin for VP!

  37. Black Flag

    1.) Strong defense. Without this everything else is a moot point.

    How much money are you wanting to steal spend for this – remembering that the USA spends more on the military then the entire rest of the world combined….

    The point being that without a strong defense, you don’t have a country to defend. Sure we spend plenty, but how many times have we been attacked? Invaded? How many foreigners have you had marching across your property with machine guns? How many times have you gone to a bomb shelter? Pearl Harbor is the only true attack in recent history that I know of. One could make the argument that 911 qualifies as well. Without our defense system what do you think may have followed 911?

    2.) A new tax system. BURN the 16,000 page income tax code. Develop a simple, but fair tax system, but do not tax income. Finally realize that the more money left with individuals the better.

    This will never happen.

    You sit with the mistaken belief that taxation is a revenue tool for government.

    It is a policy manipulation tool.

    By making somethings tax breaks, the government artificially changes the economics of that particular good or service – for political, not economic, reasons.

    A simple tax code denies such a use – therefore, the tax code will get more complex, not less, in the future so to allow greater manipulation.

    Point well taken and understood. Lots of lawyers in Congress and in the White House during certain terms….tax code gives lawyers lots of business…I get it that, too.

    3.) Cut Federal government to the bone. Start with ACORN.

    Where?

    No matter where you cut, you will hurt a significant part of the population.

    All programs are broad-based, any attempt at eliminating any program will enrage some segment of the population. Thus, no program can be cut without creating a huge political backlash.

    This is by design.

    I may have stated that a little harshly. We need to get a grip on fraud and waste. Example: A republican stated last week that if we would just cut the fraud and waste from Medicare alone, it would pay for Obama’s Health care plan (which I’m against by the way). Doesn’t that beg the question, “Then why the he** haven’t you???” And that is just medicare, apply that thought to every federal program.

    4.) Give illegal aliens 90 days to clear out.

    Immigration made this country great.

    Now you want to jail them.

    Why?

    Please read my original statement again. Somehow you missed the word ILLEGAL.

    I’m all for IMMIGRATION. If our economy really needs to meet increasing labor demands, we need to bring in the appropriate “CONTROLLED” number of immigrants, from all over the world. Plenty of people are waiting in line for the chance. There is nothing anymore special about Mexicans than other people that would like to immigrate.
    Also as long as the immigrations laws are being largely ignored, not a single American should have to pay so much as a traffic fine. If immigration law can be ignored, let’s just ignore them all. Might be an interesting legal argument under the “equal protection” clause?

    5.) Study the health care systems of the world, and find a combination of all of them that works for us.

    Health is no different than any other goods or services.

    The Free Market is the best and optimum system.

    The free market system works great for goods/services that are OPTIONAL. Health care, to a large degree is not in that category.

    I guess we need to nationalize grocery stores, because (I guess, unlike you) I kinda need to eat everyday.

    The free market works for all goods and services, no exception.

    Why do you feel you have a right to demand someone else pay for your health care?

    I am not demanding someone else pay for my insurance. I am very lucky to have excellent insurance as an employment benefit. But the reality is we already have socialized medicine to a large extent….it’s called Medicare, Medicaid, and various other names administered by the states.

    While I understand comparing groceries to medicine, there are major differences. I can (and do) raise a great deal of my own food. I can make a buying decision between beans and Fillet Mignon. I won’t die for lack of food, I can control the cost. Unfortunately, I can not prescribe myself a medication, or operate on myself.

    The medical system is geared to either entitlement recipients or those with insurance. I am one with excellent insurance, but only because it is a benefit of employment. If I had to purchase it myself, I simply could not. When I get a bill, it shows what was billed and a much lower amount that insurance will pay. Those without insurance are billed at the full amount and they are up a creek, I’ve seen it happen many times. They can not pay the insurance premiums, and can not pay the bill. So where do we draw the line? No money, you die? That happened to a guy recently, the ambulance took him to 14 different hospitals that turned him away due to no insurance. He died. Our infant granddaughter recently need emergency surgery, spent 5 days in the hospital (ICU on life support), the bill is expected to be well over $100,000.
    Since much of our health care system is ALREADY socialized, we just as well figure out how to do it right.

    6. ) Get off foreign oil. Ramp up natural gas and coal to fuel technology to bridge the gap to VIABLE new energy technology. Get on it YESTERDAY.

    Again, the point is missed here, too.

    The US has ample, local, natural resources.

    It is the plan not to use them – for a reason (whether that reason continues in the future, that is a different question).

    Oil is considered a strategic resource. After WW2, the plan was to use foreign oil, and keep domestic oil (in case of global war).

    So in peace time, eat up all the foreign oil – so that in war time, all local reserves are unused.

    There is, at this time, no reason for the USA to change this attitude.

    They are giving foreigners worthless greenbacks for real oil. As long as the greater fools accept the greenbacks, this is a brilliant plan (if you’re the USA).

    Do not plan that this will change in the near and mid-term.

    We still need to diversify our energy resources for other reasons. Nuclear, coal to fuel, wind, solar, natural gas, whatever. Our energy sources need to be more localized. As it stands now, we have a very bad set up as far as distribution is concerned. With a few strategic hits, our entire country can be shut down, due to the nature of the national grid. By having energy originate near cities and towns, by hydro, wind, solar, etc…it would be virtually impossible to shut us down on a wide spread level. It’s not just a “get off foreign oil” issue, our current system is a security threat.

    I apologize if this posts incorrectly. There is no preview and no auto quote or reply button.

  38. Yep it did not post in the format I intended, sorry, hope you can follow it.

  39. Black Flag says:

    Dee

    No prob – without a preview or editor… (sigh)… we all have to have lots of patience and good eye sight 🙂

    1.) Strong defense.

    The point being that without a strong defense, you don’t have a country to defend. Sure we spend plenty, but how many times have we been attacked?

    We are not invaded because we are, geographically, unconquerable.

    Surrounded by the two largest oceans on Earth, our best allies guarding North and South, and the 5th largest country on Earth… a boy scout troop could defend the USA 😉

    A “well armed militia” is about all we need.

    It was enough to defend Switzerland whilst surrounded by fascists.

    3.) Cut Federal government to the bone.

    I may have stated that a little harshly. We need to get a grip on fraud and waste.

    Laudable, no doubt.

    However, the reason waste exists with such pervasiveness in government is that government does not have price competition from which to judge its efforts.

    In a business, if you run your costs too high, you sell too high. The market tells you this buy avoiding buying your product.

    With government, it does not use price mechanisms to evaluate its costs. It merely taxes/inflates to cover the short falls.

    It cannot tell whether it is economical or not, because it is not an economic being – it is a political being.

    (That is where those that demand government run like a business falter – government is not like a business in the most fundamental way – that is, it does not have price mechanisms for it to judge its success/failure.)

    Therefore, as you’ve probably noted, that is why government seems to never be able to get its ‘waste’ under control – it has no mechanism to tell it ‘good or bad’, economically.

    4.) Give illegal aliens 90 days to clear out.

    Please read my original statement again. Somehow you missed the word ILLEGAL.

    What is the difference of a human making a living legally, and a human making a living illegally?

    Don’t they both produce? (If they didn’t they’d be fired).

    we need to bring in the appropriate “CONTROLLED” number of immigrants, from all over the world.

    Why?

    If there were no jobs for them, do you think they would come? If they do, why?

    If there are jobs for them, (and therefore not filled by those who are already here) why not have them come?

    Why should some bureaucrat determine that Chinese ‘no good’, Mexican ‘no good’, but French ‘good’?

    not a single American should have to pay so much as a traffic fine.

    I agree!

    Using or threatening violence on non-violent people is as immoral as one can get!

    If immigration law can be ignored, let’s just ignore them all.

    Hear! Hear!

    All laws against non-violent behavior is evil!

    5.) Study the health care systems of the world,

    I am not demanding someone else pay for my insurance.

    But, yes you are if you demand tax dollars subsidize someone (or you).

    But the reality is we already have socialized medicine …

    And it is wrong.

    Why should I pay for someone’s else health?

    While I understand comparing groceries to medicine, there are major differences. I can (and do) raise a great deal of my own food.

    And you are as equally “in command” of your own health.

    If you want to starve, would you demand me to pay for your food to get better?

    If you want to live in a way that deteriorates your health, why should you demand me to pay for your health care?

    But, who has the right to say how you should live (or how you should eat?)

    So if no one has the right to tell you how to eat or live, there is no right for you to demand that I pay for it.

    I can not prescribe myself a medication, or operate on myself.

    And that is a crime.

    You own your own body.

    You should have all the right to the say of what you wish to put into it.

    So where do we draw the line?

    The line is drawn at the point that I am not responsible for your choices, life or fate. My hands are full with my own.

    No money, you die?

    Walk across a street badly, and you die.

    You having no money is not my problem. Me having no money is my problem. You solve your problem to the best you can, and I’ll solve my problem to the best I can.

    Does that mean we all are happy, happy, joy, joy?

    No. But that’s life (and poker 😉 )

    But that is the optimum – that we are all in charge of our own lives and do not force others to pay for our fate or our mistakes.

    Since much of our health care system is ALREADY socialized, we just as well figure out how to do it right.

    Yeah, turn it back into the free market, and watch the care delivered go up and the price go down.

    6. ) Get off foreign oil.

    We still need to diversify our energy resources for other reasons. Nuclear, coal to fuel, wind, solar, natural gas, whatever.

    Why?

    There is a reason we use oil – and it isn’t we couldn’t figure out what to do with the slimy guck that was coming out of the ground, so we burned it.

    Oil has the largest energy per density of any known fuel source (except nuclear). The advantage of oil is that it is mobile (unlike nuclear).

    That is why we use it.

    Did you know that the first stage of the Saturn 5 rocket – which has the most powerful engines built by man – uses kerosene and liquid oxygen for its fuel.

    Even though Hydrogen and Oxygen burns with the most chemical energy in the universe, kerosene and oxygen burn with the most energy per density. It takes too much space to store Hydrogen for it to be efficient as the fuel for the main stage. There is more energy in the volume of the first stage in kerosene.

    Alternatives would be used if they were better – but they are not. They all have some significant defect compared to oil.

    Our energy sources need to be more localized.

    Why?

    As it stands now, we have a very bad set up as far as distribution is concerned. With a few strategic hits, our entire country can be shut down, due to the nature of the national grid.

    Our electrical grid is a completely ‘another thing’ vs. oil.

    I can go into the grid system – why it exists, how your lights turn on when you flick a switch, why solar/wind are a disaster for the grid, etc….but poor USWep will weep at another Black Flag novel….

    By having energy originate near cities and towns, by hydro, wind, solar, etc…it would be virtually impossible to shut us down on a wide spread level.

    Because there would be little energy to shut down.

    Solar/wind is far too variable to use a grid component for electricity.

    Hydro only works near water – and at huge loss of land for damn water.

    Trust me, if these ideas had merit – they’ve long, long, long ago been used.

    It’s not just a “get off foreign oil” issue, our current system is a security threat.

    The current reliance on foreign oil was a solution to solve the security threat

    Nazi Germany suffered because it had very little oil.

    Hitler changed his objective in Russia from Moscow – which if captured may have defeated the Russians – to attacking to the south into the Caucasus because he needed the oil there. This ended up to be the Nazis doom.

    The plan is to consume all the foreign oil in peace time – and keep the American oil ready for war.

    This plan is unchanged, for now.

  40. SFC Dick says:

    Black Flag, you posted…”remembering that the USA spends more on the military then the entire rest of the world combined….”
    where do you get those numbers?
    That seems high to me. It reads like hyperbole to make a point.

  41. Black Flag says:

    SFC Dick said

    I do not use exaggeration as a weapon of argument.

    I try very hard to state facts and truth as accurately as I can – mainly because my opponents will use inaccuracy against my arguments (a fallacy, of course) and I end up spending too much time trying to correct their fallacy and drift off of the real discussion.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

    World $1100 billion 2004 est. [
    Rest-of-World [all but USA] $500 billion
    United States $623 billion

    8)

  42. Black Flag says:
  43. SFC Dick says:

    Black Flag, Alrighty then,I belive you are correct. I’ll cede the point, some sites list U.S as just under half but I’m talking percentage points and that is not valid in context of the argument. I do wonder about the reporting accuracies of a couple countries, but not valid here. Even at that, U.S still spends only 31% of its total on military according to http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending#InContextUSmilitarybudgetvsotherUSpriorities

    People trying to make one argument or another will resort to the “discretionary” argument of over half, at about 55%. I have a bank account, my funds go out to those I pay. I have reoccuring bills that I pay, but it is all discretionary as I purchased these things. Enough corkscrew argument on my part.

    I agree with the point that we have natural defenses. We did seem able to penetrate those same natural defenses against our enemies over 60 years ago. I no longer see those defenses as strong any longer because I do not see a threat of mass invasion.

    Black Flag,I still don’t know if I agree with your positions as I am still reading your posts but I will say this. If you want to get an idea how far out of whack or defense budget is in reference to our current advisary consider our war machine costs as compared to those of Al Qeada, Taliban and the likes. Yet we are still here, on the battelfield.Losing this war.

    I like missles and bombs, heck, I use them by proxy but they are no substitue for a solid strategy. The lack of a solid war effort is costing us things of much more value than dollars but that fact seems absent from debates about budgets, taxes and such. Don’t give me the “politicians are loosing this war ..” drivel. I see commanders here on the ground giving this war away. We could tripple spending and still continue to lose this war. Spending is no more in equall relation to success on the battlefield than spending on education is equall to success in the clasroom but both sides seem to swear by the validity of the equation when it applies to their pet; yet deny it as a valid equation, in the same breath, when discrediting their political foe.

    So my point, I believe the “gub’nent” boys take too much money across the board. We don’t demand that our officials spend wisely and well. Instead we focus on what we like and then the sky is the limit but hate when the officials spend money on other “stuff”. We remain divided , wrapped in our special interests and fight each other. The old “congress sucks, but my congressman is good” disease.

    On this board there is talk of revolution with out force of arms, yet on this very board when disussing the libertarians platform, these neuvo revolutionaries divide themselves again for political self interests. I know, moral convictions and all but I believe in a zero sum game, of sorts. Most of these moral arguments, when played out several levels of immediate contact, will lose the backing of even the most ardent zealot, this breaks down the moral imperative in the first place for me.I believe we, the U.S people, will always be at the mercy of those elected over us, continually put in power from the promises made to those who still want some control over their fellow man because of high morall believes held with highest of convictions.

    My political party M.Y.O.(G.D)B the patry platform .Shut up, don’t worry about it and only come to me when the liberties of you neighbors fist coincide with the freedoms of your nose.

  44. Black Flag says:

    I agree with the point that we have natural defenses. We did seem able to penetrate those same natural defenses against our enemies over 60 years ago. I no longer see those defenses as strong any longer because I do not see a threat of mass invasion.

    60 years ago, we had a “unsinkable air craft carrier” and organizational base only a few miles away from our target, within range of all our aircraft. We took two years to accumulate supplies, materials and men. We undertook methods of complete surprise, guile and misdirection. We invented new weapons and machines to aid us. We waited for the exact right day – even if it meant to delay another year. We drew in every possible ship, in the 1,000’s, in the region for tactical and logistical support. We built the largest invasion force in history.

    …and with all of that, we were 24 hours from defeat…at the hands of old men, boys and exhausted enemy troops.

    I am always surprised by those who think $600 billion is needed to defend the USA.

    . Yet we are still here, on the battelfield. Losing this war.

    Yeah, because we are fighting the wrong war.

    We are fighting World War Two again (a 3rd Generation Battlefield) against a 4th Generation Battlefield foe.

    We are like the French in WW2, using 2nd Generation tactics (trenches and forts) vs. 3rd Generation Germans (mobility, armor, blitzkrieg).

    We are suffering the same disaster of mismatched strategy, except being so huge as compared to our foe, instead of being quickly decapitated, we are being slowly bled to death.

    They are unable to exercise a ‘coup de grace’ – we’re ‘too tall’ for them to reach our neck – so they are content to chop off our toes and ankles and let us bleed.

    It is not a matter of courage and bravery (the French were incredibly brave fighters in all her wars, as are our troops) – but a matter of ignorance in strategy.

  45. To US, SFC, and other vets on this site: Our founders never envisioned us sending our military around the world and getting enmeshed in other folks problems. I would like to ask those of you who have engaged in other places on our behalf a few questions.

    1. Do you agree witht the premise that our use of military force should be limited to only responding to those who attack us?

    2. Should we form military alliances with others simply to prevent attack on them (this is one way we get sucked in)?

    3. If you agree to #1, then can we defend our country by returning all military personnel to our own lands?

    4. Your thoughts on what constitutes an attack on the USA, especially in light of the new enemy without a definitive country. Some folks forget Iraq was shooting at our pilots on almost a daily basis. If you were in charge would you have considered this adequate justification for invasiion?

    5. How do we address groups like Al Quida and countries like Afghanastan(sp?)? This goes to the question of how to respond, militarily, to an attack by a group who is supported, or at least allowed to exist within, by a govt who controlls a country by force, not election.

    This is not a trap or trick. I just don’t like the fact that the folks who have been closest to carrying out this country’s military and geopolitical goals/missions never seem to be given a chance to address the key questions. What is the correct policy and how should we go about implementing it.

    I address this question to you and not BF or the others of us here who like to wax and wane philisophical. I want to know what you really think–Please.

    JAC

    • USWeapon says:

      JAC,

      I will answer your questions as best I can:
      1. Do you agree witht the premise that our use of military force should be limited to only responding to those who attack us? Yes and No. I believe that we should be able to respond to aggression. So that means to me a direct attack on us or an ally, but only if that ally is formally requesting our help. At that point, repel the aggression for them and disengage. I do however, feel we have the right to attack an iminent threat as well. But in a very limited set of circumstances. We couldn’t attack Iran right now, for example. But if they launched a nuclear strike on Israel and told us we were next, they are now a credible threat and I do believe we should take away their ability to follow up on their threat. We are far too active today, and should be doing far less. If we did, there might not be nearly as much of a need for such a large military.

      2. Should we form military alliances with others simply to prevent attack on them (this is one way we get sucked in)? See above, lol, I should have read all the questions before I started to answer them. If they really are our allies, we have to stick up for them. We are the big guy in the group. If we went out with friends and one of us was a powerful brute and he didn’t defend us from some random guy in the parking lot who picked a fight, we would probably not be happy with him. I do, however, believe that this type of action must be in defense only. If England or Israel wants to pick a fight, they do so on thier own. And if the one they pick a fight with whips their ass, tough luck. We do get sucked in a lot now, but a drastic change in position for us could change that and limit it greatly.

      3. If you agree to #1, then can we defend our country by returning all military personnel to our own lands? We cannot and should not. In terms of Iraq and Afghanistan, absolutely bring them home. But when one of our allies allows us to have a base in their country, I have no issue with that. The second that ally wants us out, we should be gone. This allows us the ability to have a forward defense. A missle defense shield in old Russia isn’t a bad thing if it can shoot down a missle before it gets close to us. The key isn’t having all bases here, it is a change in posture that moves us to a completely defensive in those bases abroad.

      4. Your thoughts on what constitutes an attack on the USA, especially in light of the new enemy without a definitive country. Some folks forget Iraq was shooting at our pilots on almost a daily basis. If you were in charge would you have considered this adequate justification for invasiion? For invasion, No, for shooting back at those shooting at us, yes. I stop short of saying that we EVER had justification for invading Iraq. I will argue WMD proof verus not and the complete irrelevance of that argument to begin with, but that doesn’t mean I think we were justified to invade. Take some actions? Absolutely. Full scale invasion, which should be a last step taken against a country that is clearly offensive, No. An attack is just that, an attack. 9/11 was an attack. I know that the current environment makes identifying an enemy very difficult. How do you hold Pakistan responsible for the actions of a Pakistani terrorist? But I think moving to a far more defensive position can clear that up right away. We heard a lot about fighting terrorism in Iraq rather than here at home. Then we heard about how we couldn’t fight them because they don’t fight in uniform and they blend with the people. Let’s eliminate the second part by eliminating the first. Fight them here, on our turf, where they are clear aggressors and they don’t have the support of the innocent people. I will take fighting terrorists in my house over fighting them in theirs any day. But that is the tactician in me.

      5. How do we address groups like Al Quida and countries like Afghanastan(sp?)? This goes to the question of how to respond, militarily, to an attack by a group who is supported, or at least allowed to exist within, by a govt who controlls a country by force, not election. And there is the real question isn’t it? We address them by being who it is that we claim to be…. A better country that operates with a solid moral compass and stays out of the business of other sovereign nations. I will, at some point dedicate a post to this topic if you like. It is not easy dealing with Al Qaeda, but we should realize that they lose mass appeal the second that we are no longer a visible part of their world.

      This is not a trap or trick. I just don’t like the fact that the folks who have been closest to carrying out this country’s military and geopolitical goals/missions never seem to be given a chance to address the key questions. What is the correct policy and how should we go about implementing it. And I appreciate the sentiment. I did a job for this country that was nasty and that I do not talk about on this blog. And it does give me a different perspective on things, even different than most veterans. Answering these questions takes much longer than I have taken here, because there is the other side of things that I have seen, such as the woman who thanks us for making her life more bearable in Afghanistan or the children who won’t grow up under Saddam’s oppressive rule. I am willing to hash out the issue if it is a topic that people want to discuss.

      I address this question to you and not BF or the others of us here who like to wax and wane philisophical. I want to know what you really think–Please

  46. US: If folks aren’t checking this post out anymore feel free to move these questions to more recent post to generate response.
    Thx
    JAC

  47. Black Flag says:

    Wax or wane?

    Is that what you call questioning your premise and logic???

    No matter…
    1) Yes
    2) No
    3) Yes
    4) No, it was their country our planes were flying over. The ‘new’ enemy is a 4G Warrior, and must be dealt with in a 4G warfare way – that is, more like a criminal and far less like a solider. As USWep struggles to define what a criminal is for him, I will define it on behalf of what the government thinks is a criminal. – The government definition: a criminal is someone who undercuts the exclusive authority of the govnerment.

    4G Warriors do not hold ground – they attack the legitimacy of the government. That is why when the US bombs kids, they win. When the US wins a battle, they see that as a draw. When they win a battle, they win. As long as a 3G warrior is drawn into conflict with a 4G, the 3G cannot win. Since an attack on legitimacy is what a criminal does, dealing with 4G warriors like criminals becomes a workable strategy with a good chance of success.

    5) By not being an offensive military force. They didn’t attack us in the 70’s….

  48. US-W: No need to take up you blog unless you wish. I would like to explore further over a cold beer someday, and I’ll buy.

    I don’t think we ask often enough, those who have actually carried out our policies, what they now think once they have seen the consequences on the ground. This holds for other parts of the govt as well. But the military especially because of some of the issues you touched on here. You have given me enough to think about for now, so lets save the rest for that other day.

    JAC

  49. SFC Dick says:

    OH NO Balck Flag, Sir, just as I was about to put you on my Christmass card list, the season the fam and I celibrate the somewhat innaccurate birth of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ, you have to go and use G4. Young man, what have you been reading?

    To properly set the tone of my post I shall borow and paraphrase from Chevy Chase…”Black Flag you ignorant slut…”

    Ok then, I type that with a smile on my face, but not the next.

    We are absolutely not fighting this as we did WWII.

    I would like to have USweapon and Black Flag e-mail me before we continue with this , I think Black Flag can be contacted by US and have my e-mail sent to him. I would like to discuss just a couple of things before we begin this debate, one which I have been salivating for.

  50. Black Flag says:

    SFC Dick

    USWep can release my email to you.

    However, I’d encourage you to debate with me here, online and in public.

    I believe it would be very informative to USWep’s reading public, and I’m game for any debate!

    Regards!

  51. SFC Dick says:

    Black Flag, Sir

    This debate needs to be in public, I was just asking permission to use USweapons board for the fireworks.

    • USWeapon says:

      SFC,

      Thanks for the email reply as well. I would rather we don’t do it in this thread (simply because it doesn’t fit here, no other reason). I will review the links you sent me and get to work on this tomorrow. I will provide a brief article tomorrow that addresses what you are talking about and then you are free to have at it, so long as you and BF play nice, complying with the mellow and helpful vibe of my blog, lol. I also offer this as an alternative to my writing the initial article, if you would prefer, you can write up what you want as an initial post and I will make that the article, giving you the same guest speaker status that BF had on his post a couple of weeks ago. All you have to do is send me an email with what you want to say written out and I will copy and paste it into a new article and then the debate can begin. It is a worthy subject and one I think everyone can benefit from.

  52. Black Flag says:

    Great!

    I’ve got a match… 😉 8)

  53. SFC Dick: Any chance you could post your answers to my questions above, before you and flag go at it. I’ld like your calm and thoughtful response. Once you two get after it I am guessing that calm may vanish.
    Thx
    JAC

  54. SFC Dick says:

    Just a Citizen, I will be addressing all of that and more. I believe that the writings that I put forth as my “thesis” of my argument and the argument itself will have me taking fire from all sides. We call it the Afghan death blossom, only in reverse. The Afghan death blossom happens when moving about with indiginous personal, you take fire, and then the “blossom” happens. Sometimes , in their excitement, the Afghan element tends to rip loose in a 360deg and sphere arc of fire. it is always best to maintain a high degree of situational awareness of where you stand in relation to them incase the death happens to blossom.

  55. The internet is a powerful tool. The left wing nouts have the media to fill their heads with how wonderful socialist programs are. With the internet we can combat this problem. People tend to believe what they hear and what they read if appears to them to be coming from a credible source.

    Imagine thousands of web sites designed that promote capitalism and show how evil socialism is. Web sites filled with success stories of people that started from nothing and became successful because of the opportunity our capitalism provided. At the same time have a bunch of hard luck stories about people living in socialist countries. People dependant on government support forced to living their lives in poverty because they will never have the opportunity to make anything of their lives.

    Show how great our healthcare system is today in spite of high cost healthcare. Show stories of people from countries that have socialized healthcare that do not get the good medical care they should. Show how many of these people flee to the US just to be able to get healthcare. How devistating a government controlled healthcare program really is.

    People do not get it! Many of our young people are being brainwashed in our universities across the country. This has been going on for many years now. I don’t understand why or how these colleges tolerate or allow these socialist professors to teach there! It is destroying our future generations and is becoming the root evil cause for so many people being brainwashed to buy into all this socialism.

    Do not kid yourselves! These groups are huge and strong with hundreds of millions in financial support. Can you say ACORN? Groups like this have grown by leaps and bounds and get most of their finacial support from our tax dollars. How ironic is that? We are paying these groups from our own hard earned dollars to destroy us!

    All this evil must be exposed! It must be exposed in such a way where it doesn’t appear like they are being attacked, but more like success stories from capitalism compared to hard luck stories from government socialism! It must be presented in such a way that it appeals to their emotions where they can “get it” that socialism is bad! Thousands of professional looking websites could go a long way in getting this message out. They don’t cost a lot to produce and can fill up the search engines with key words that lure people to these sites. If it looks professional, and it properly shows and demonstrates the good vs the evil it could go a long way in opening the eyes of these people that have been so badly mislead and lied to by the media! Who knows, if it is done right, it could even have an effect on the bias media as well! It has taken decades for these radicals to get to this point and everyone just bashing each other is not going to change their minds. Their minds have been posioned and we need a way to remove that poison from their heads!

%d bloggers like this: