Couldn’t Happen to a Better Person

Oh, the sweet, sweet taste of one of my most disliked politicians finding themselves in a bit of a scandal and caught outright lying to the American people. They got you, Queen Nancy. They got you. For those that have not been following this ongoing drama as it played out over the last few weeks, allow me to just come right out and say what I am thinking. I cannot stand Nancy Pelosi. She is, in my opinion, the epitome of everything that is wrong with the American political system today. It isn’t because she is from the left. It is because she is not a good person. She is bitter and nasty and 100% full of bulldookey. There are bad politicians on both sides of the aisle, no doubt. But I struggle to find any worse than her. So the news breaking tonight that she has been caught in her hypocritical stance and caught lying about it just makes me giggle like a school-girl…

Obama Blame BushThe topic is torture. Enhanced Interrogation. Whatever it is that you want to call it based on your own personal beliefs. I have been becoming increasingly angry over the way that the Democratic party has attempted to portray the Republicans as animals who do these horrible things. It started with the election cycle and the full court press to blame Republicans for nearly every ailment on the planet. Upset Stomach? Blame George Bush. Can’t pay your bills? Blame the failed policies of the last 8 years. Oh the liberal mantra was strong. Bush was not a good President. That was obvious. And there were plenty of mistakes made. That is obvious too. 

But that liberal mantra of “blame everything on the Republicans” was not only weak, and only to be believed by the weakest of minds, but an outright lie. Because every single thing that was done during the Bush administration and every other administration that didn’t have an untouchable majority in both houses of Congress was done by both parties. But listen to the lies, and then watch how the faithful believe them. Let’s go through the greatest hits shall we?

  • Financial Crisis caused by Bush deregulationActually Bush passed more regulation on industry than any other President in history. Most of the legislation that caused the crisis came from Clinton years.
  • Housing Crisis caused by Bush pushing for sup-prime lendingCome on kids, when is the last time the Republicans EVER pushed to make a move like this. Clinton administration had every bit as much to do with this as Bush. 
  • The Republicans took us to an illegal war in IraqImmoral perhaps, but illegal? Absolutely not. Approved by Congress and voted for by all your favorite Democrats and Republicans. And don’t give me that false pretenses bullshit. You are Congress, do some fracking research before you vote. You voted American opinion polls that said “go” and when America changed its mind, you pretended you were “tricked”
  • The Patriot Act was all Bush/Cheney Ahem… Approved by Congress and voted for by all your favorite Democrats and Republicans. You voted American opinion polls that said “yes” and when America changed its mind, you pretended you were “tricked”
  • Republicans are in the Pocket of Big BusinessDumbest thing I have ever heard. Go check and see who the big corporations gave their contributions to. Pretty equal when you look at it. In fact, in 2008, Democrats got more money from big business than Republicans.
  • The Republican Animals Tortured those poor Detainees and we Democrats are Going to Fight for ThemDemocrats were in on it just as much as Republicans. And therein is the point of this article.

Crooks and Liars_ Reid and PelosiOh, I don’t refute that the Republicans are to blame. But the Democrats are just as liable. But those lies have gone unchallenged by the liberal media and, therefore, believed by the faithful liberals who use them in every argument they have, despite the facts showing the opposite. But let’s focus on that last one shall we? Because the rhetoric coming from the Democrats has been pretty “holier than thou” on the subject of detention and interrogation. We have the Democratic leadership screaming for prosecution of those that committed these heinous acts of torture and those who knew about it. “Bring Bush and Cheney in for war criminal trials” is a daily call in the liberal press and from Democratic Congress members. And leading the charge, one Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.

Now I make no bones about the fact that I despise Pelosi. I think she is a disgusting human being. She plays nasty partisan politics daily. Every statement she makes is less a pitch for her position than it is an attack or an accusation against the Republicans. With Republicans agreeing to capitulate in a vote a couple of years ago, she didn’t choose to be gracious and hold the vote she was getting passed with Republican support. She instead decided to take the podium and deride Republicans and the Bush administration. Republicans pulled their support on the spot and the “sure thing” vote…. failed. Because that is who she is. She is not interested in helping this country one little bit. She is focused only on furthering the radical left agenda. I DO NOT think that of all Democrats. In fact, I only think it of a select few. But she is one of the worst politicians of my lifetime. A truly classless, bitter, nasty, and evil woman.

So as she led the charge for indictments and prosecution of those who knew about, approved, or carried out these interrogations, I immediately followed my gut and went the other way. I knew there was an agenda there. After all it was coming from Pelosi. But more important, I used to work in Washington. I know a thing or two about how things roll there. So I knew that Nancy and other members of Congress get intelligence briefings and that they must have known something about this, unless it was completely a black operation, which it did not appear to be. And given Nancy’s position on the House Intelligence Committee, it just seemed impossible to me that she didn’t know about this. 

Pelosi Interrogation DanceSo when Obama selectively only released memos that were incriminating to Republicans I was a bit skeptical to say the least. Because no Democrats were being mentioned as EVER knowing anything, which we all know is bullshit. And leave it to the CIA, an agency being gutted by Democrats, to finally step up and say, “Hey wait a second here, We gave over 40 intelligence briefings to Congress in which we discussed the interrogation happening. Congress knew… all of Congress knew”. But that started the Nancy Pelosi dance. First she said that she attended no such briefings and that this was all a Republican attempt to divert the public’s attention away from the facts (kind of reminds you of Hillary’s “vast right wing conspiracy” statement, huh?).

But then the CIA said “We have minutes of those meetings including a list of who attended each one”. A CIA document made public last week shows that Pelosi received a briefing in September 2002 on the tactics used on Zubaydah, an Al Qaeda leader and one of three prisoners subjected to waterboarding. Uh Oh. But Nancy began to dance a different way. Pelosi said she was told the agency was discussing its legal right to use the tactic in the future. “We were not — I repeat — were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used,” said Pelosi. She maintained her stance. She continued to claim that she was not aware that the technique was ever used until the memos were released by Obama last month. 

But now the report comes out that Nancy Pelosi was told in February 2003 by her intelligence aide, Michael Sheehy, that waterboarding was used on CIA detainee Abu Zubaydah, directly contradicting Pelosi’s account that she had never been informed of the technique’s use. When the aide told Pelosi waterboarding had actually been used on the Al Qaeda terrorist, she didn’t object. Just as I suspected, Nancy is a big, fat liar. 

So now there will be “investigations”. The House majority leader reluctantly agreed Tuesday that congressional hearings should investigate Pelosi’s assertion that she wasn’t informed, more than six years ago, that harsh interrogation methods were used on the Al Qaeda leader. Representative Steny Hoyer, D-Md., called Republican challenges to Pelosi’s assertion a diversion from the real question of whether the Bush administration tortured terrorist suspects. Nonetheless, he acknowledged the controversy should be resolved. In other words, “we have to give the appearance of being thorough and fair, so we will go through pretend investigations, which will end with (mark my words on this) Nancy completely cleared of all charges against her.”

The bottom line is that Karma finally found out where Nancy was holing up. She tried her best to avoid the wicked Karma that has surely been looking for her for a long time. Oh, this doesn’t begin to pay off her Karmic debt, but it is good to see that lying woman get caught at least once. But it is OK, Democrats…. You can always blame this on Bush too.

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Comments

  1. Richmond Spitfire says:

    Hello all,

    What comes around goes around.

    When I first became aware of Nazi Pelosi, I was immediately struck by the huge waves of arrogance emanating from her. I agree, she is VERY nasty and VERY bitter. If I could see auras, she would be surrounded by a black one — I say this because I do believe she is an intelligent woman, but uses that intelligence in an ‘evil’ way.

    Evil to me in this context is:

    a. Self-Serving of her own Ego/Narcissism
    b. She is now in a position of great power and that feeds her Ego/Narcissim – thus the arrogance
    c. She is first, self-righteous; second, party-righteous
    d. She is hypocritical
    e. She is just downright “hateful” and wears that hatred on her sleeve. It amazes me how her eyes blaze, her voice inflects and her face contorts in the name of her hatred – brings to my mind a “fanatical”.

    This woman really does scare me. I’m very relieved that she has been “caught” in the act of lying. I really do hope that this has a negative impact on her career as a politician.

    The other person who I get the “heebie jeebies” over is Rahm Emmanuel. I believe that he is “evil” too and would have a black aura.

    Regards,
    RS

    • Bama dad says:

      You can include Harry “the hooknose” Ried in your list of scary poly-ticks.

    • Agree with all said. My #2 is Barney Franks. The only explanation for their re-election is buying the votes. The only reason they are not in prison is a corrupt congress.

      • Richmond Spitfire says:

        Hi LoI,

        For me personally, I don’t put Barney Frank at the same level of “Evilness” that I do for Pelosi and Emmanuel. The reason for this is that I believe his motivations are based upon greed (which is wrong too), but I don’t believe he has the same level of intelligence AND subversive agenda that Pelosi/Emmanuel have — to further this, I think he’s simply a “stupid blowhard” that’s trying to finance his life.

        I don’t like Barney Frank — I think he’s oily and should be ousted — but he doesn’t “scare” me like the other two. Now, with that said, I could be totally wrong and am willing to change my thoughts on it!

        Hope you are having a wonderful day!

        Regards,
        RS

        • Hello, hello Spitfire

          After Freddie/Fannie, Franks has stayed high on my “I can’t believe this bulldookey” list. He was actually sleeping with an executive for one of those companies, and is still in office, not behind bars.

          Had a thought about you when posting to the recommended readings, “Princess of Wands” by John Ringo, think you will enjoy.

          • Richmond Spitfire says:

            Hi LoI,

            Checked it out on Amazon and it looks really good — has great reviews. I’ve ordered it and I’ll let you know what I think. Sadly, they didn’t have it available for Kindle, so I have to wait to get it! Can’t wait to get into the “Barb” persona!

            Thanks,
            RS

  2. TruthSeeker says:

    I thought she was supposed to have the most ethical congress ever?

    She should be thrown in prison for perjury to the American People. Every word out of her mouth contains “The American People want/know” this or that. It makes me sick everytime she says anything.

    • Alan F. says:

      Oh please! If they were to show you footage of Nancy entering the Vatican you’d see that hesitation as she approached the threshold, one aid standing ready with the fire extinguisher and the other with a dust buster… just in case.

  3. USW, Thank you for providing a place where I can find a little hope for the country I love. I hope and pray we can move this country in a better direction, for my childrens sake.

    17 year active duty soldier

  4. Nelson T says:

    At some point in time, individuals like Pelosi, get their due. They follow the same behavior pattern as all that have gone down before them. They become intoxicated on their “power” and begin to believe they are bullet proof, invisible and untouchable. I would love to see her indicted for her actions but know this will never happen. The only hope of getting rid of her is thru the voters in her home district. But, just as the voters in New Orleans continued to re-elect Bill Jefferson, (because he was black and was being “victimized”), Pelosi will likely be re-elected. What has happened to our country??? At some point in time………may come too late.

  5. esomhillgazette says:

    I am SO happy to see Nazi Pelosi get a little slapdown. Emphasis on little. Because, as US says, all she will get is maybe a slap on the wrist when all is said and done.

    I feel just exactly like USW on that buzzard hearted B—-. I absolutely cannot stand her. It makes me physically ill to see that bitter old crone on the TV screen. Did I express that I don’t like her?

    My main problem with this lastest Obama made fiasco is the fact of, SO WHAT! So they were kind of hard on those bastards. If that’s the worst that they had done to them, they need to get lessons from the VC or the Apaches. They could show them what real torture is. Sorry if my sympathy button hasn’t yet been pushed. Any more than it would have been for John Wayne Gacy or The BTK Killer. I just can’t work up any tears or regrets for them no matter how much I try.

    I always come back to those poor folks in those towers and planes calling their families and telling them goodbye and that they loved them knowing they were fixing to die. Unlike apparently most Americans, I haven’t forgotten 9/11. And Bastards like those who were Waterboarded caused it. I’m not gonna get to worked up over a little harsh treatment to them.

    We’re talking about people who killed THOUSANDS of people. In this case IMHO two wrongs didn’t make a right only because they didn’t torture the worthless sunzabitches to DEATH. If they had captured one of ours, whether we had done this or not, their torture would have been 100 times worse. And that’s if they didn’t just saw their heads off with a dull knife. So I say again. Who freakin’ cares?

    Now Obama is going to release hundreds of more pictures from Abu Graib. Why? What is this going to help? In my opinion all this will do is start up the riots in Iraq and other Arab countries. Of course, it will be blamed on Bush. But exactly how will this help our troops that are still there? Obama needs to tell the Ass Clown Loonies United to go to hell. He has that power. But not to worry Liberal Left wingnuts, he won’t do it. He’ll hand ’em right over.

    And why is it that he will turn out memos about the EIT’s, but won’t turn loose the other memos that the Republicans actually want him to release? Because they might vindicate some of the things the previous Administration did? That’s the only reason I can think of. If it hurt Bush, then he would have damn sure released them.

    I have heard repeatedly that the US is better than that. That things like the EIT’s are beneath us as Americans. What can I say to refute that? Just one word! BUUULLLSHIT!!!!

    • Esom;

      When I was much younger and agreed with another person’s point of view I said “Right-On”. Seems appropriate here.

      We still are the strongest country on earth, while also being the kindest, but we didn’t get there by being limp wristed wimps. We had to kick some ass.

      With a few exceptions we have not historically thrown the first punch, but we by God do throw the last. The only way to stop a bully is to force him to stop. Put the fear of Allah into them.

      I for one am tired of those out there who critisize the US for torture and actions related to war.

      We should as a country promote peace, but the best way to ensure it is to be the baddest cat on the walk.

      • Richmond Spitfire says:

        Right On!

      • esomhillgazette says:

        CM,
        IMHO war is not supposed to be nice. When I was a youngun’ I used to get in occasional fights. I wasn’t a bully, but I didn’t back up worth a damn either.

        When in a fight, I was in it to win it. Whatever it took. There is no such thing as a “fair” fight. It’s root hog or die time and devil take the hindmost. ANYTHING goes.

        That’s the way I saw the US after 9/11. It was time to kick ass and take names. Kill ’em all and let Allah sort them out.

        My view has moderated somewhat since. ALL Muslims were not at fault for what happened on that day and we should not treat them as if they were. But everytime the US sneezes wrong, the Arab Countries one and all, take to the streets and start raising hell and burning our flag. Then have the damn gall to get pissed because somebody talks bad about Mohammed, or shows the Koran in a bad light. News flash a-holes! It is just a offensive to me to see you burn my Country’s Flag! It was even more offensive to me to see you all dancing in the streets and singing over 9/11!!!

        Anyway. I too am sick to death of Politicians pretending that OUR troops are supposed to play nice with the other side. It is a DAMN WAR!!!

        We don’t want to kill civilians. That is never a good thing. But the sad fact is that civilians always have and always will be caught in the middle during a war. Innocent lives are ALWAYS going to be lost.

        Did we need to do whatever it took to get the information we needed from terrorists we captured after 9/11? You’re damn right we did IMHO.

        Did we need to kick Iraq’s ass? Yep!! Saddam’s butt needed a foot in it and we had the biggest foot and the biggest reason to do it. Over 10 years of negotiation had gotten us and the UN absolutely no where with him. Meanwhile the bastard was commiting acts of Genocide on his own people.

        President Bush told the American People straight up that the War on Terror would take many years. It took most Americans about 6 months to forget that. It took less than that for Some Ultra Left Wingnuts and Hollywood Peckerheads to start blaming us for our being attacked by those poor repressed Islamic “Freedom Fighters”.

        Wake up and smell the bulldookey you’re throwing!

        Rowe, where’s my Decaff!!!

        • Esom, you are the only one I have EVER heard that actually articulated that President Bush told everyone that this would be a long process, and he made no bones about it. Like you said, pretty much everyone had forgotten that…except you and me!

        • Soon after we started action against Iraq, Mr. Rumsfeld actualy stated in a press conference that it would take as long as 20 years to reach our goals.

          He was crucified by the press and dems and you never heard that statement again. “Long hard slog” or “this is hard work” became the new buzz words.

          Everyone would later blame him for the mess, and perhaps his mgt style and some decisions contributed. And yes he was in charge so we know where the counteriet buck is going to stop. But I will always remember him as the ONLY one who spoke the truth in the beginning.

          JAC

          • I knew if there wer others it would be on this site…I am sure there are more…thanks JAC!

          • “You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want”, disqualified him from the job he had. Third year into the war, can’t deliver enough up armored Humvees to the troops. This from the SecDef of a country that produced 17,000 M-4 Shermans in 1943. Correct me if I’m wrong recent 11 Bravo’s, but would you rather be in an unarmored Humvee or a 60 year old Sherman when the IED goes off?

            The whole idea of trying to fight two simultaneous wars with the mini military we have since the peace dividend of the early ’90’s leaves me cold. Nobody in the Bush Administration called for sacrifice or for sending yourself or your children into harms way. What a friggen crew. Never saw the presidential daughters sign up, not even as doughnut dollies.

            • Well, Bush also said in the beginning that this war would call for sacrifice.

              The problem is, most are not willing to sacrifice. All I heard from most people was that either we shouldn’t have to sacrifice ANYTHING.

              The Administration I think jumped in too quickly before they were ready. Maybe it was in response to the public outrage about 9/11, or maybe because they knew how quickly people would forget. And forget they did! And the draft was out of the freakin’ question.

              I’m not disagreeing too much though SK. God knows there weren’t too many Congress members sons and daughters that went over there either.

              But ain’t that always the way it’s been? Even during the Civil War important people bought their sons out of service or even worse found replacements for them. As late as Vietnam you could get out of service by going to College. (Bill Clinton comes to mind)

              • I think my real problem with Bush was failing to make that call to a specific sacrifice. It’s pretty obvious that they never planned for a larger military. Right before 9/11 Rumsfeld was about to call for the elimination of two Army divisions.

                Based on December 7th, you would have expected a surge in recruitment and volunteering. It was discouraged. Sure they loved it when Pat Tilman volunteered, what a great PR coup and photo op. Then, they mis-used him, and did the usual governemnt cover up when it went off in their faces.

                Despite the lack of a draft, the Army had been twice as big in 1990 as in 2001. But, we wanted that peace dividend and “ain’t gonna make war no more”. Maybe if the Army had stayed at the 1,000,000 mark, we could have properly policed Iraq and stopped the insurgency in its tracks. A few years ago I talked to an old WW 2 vet who was on occupation duty in Germany. He said, in the beginning, there was a GI on every street corner. (JOKE COMING ALERT: He also said that within a month this was followed by a hooker on every street corner).

            • S.K.

              I find your argument superficial. The Sec Def made the appropriate statement for the context and time at which the question was asked. I watched it live at the time. And by the way, it is true now and it has always been true. I wonder how we would react to the battle of Midway today given our new found ability to second guess and criticize everything by watching talking heads on the boob tube. Everyone was in the mood to hang someone in the Bush Admin so everytime Rummy spoke the truth he caught major shit.

              The comment did not disqualify him and should not be misrepresented as doing so today. The more appropriate criticism is why did it take so long to get retrofits in place once we identified a new problem, IED’s. There are also other legit. criticisms of the Sec Def, and some are real serious, but that statement was not it.

              This whining about the Pres. daughters is just pure OOMPAH and BULLDOOKEY. Kind of like the Dems crying that “the Pres. has never asked us to sacrifice like we did in WWII”. First of all we were in a Depression at the start of WWII and stayed in one until the end. Is that the sacrifice everyone wanted? Second, it presumes we Americans can’t support our troops or get by without superficial cheerleading from our leaders. Kind of like Michelle O’s little garden at the white house. More FDR legacy, or I should say Elanore legacy.

              You are projecting anger over real issues onto catch phrases and gimmicks that were invented by opponents to Bush. You need to recognize that and focus on the real issues associated with both of these wars (Iraq and Afgan). The concern over a reduced military and our ability to maintain two fronts is very legit. But don’t forget that we did not have to moblize large force for the Afgan campaign, Spec Ops got that done with local tribes. That of course left the big force available for Iraq.

              The fall down was obviously what do you do to put all the china back together after you break it. And to do so in a short time frame. Force size is affected by time as much as or more than geography or the size of the opposition. Think Guam and Phillipines.

              For that lack of forsight the SecDef took the fall and that was legit IMHO. I am guessing it was not all his doing or lack of doing, however. Others need to be held to account.

              Sorry for the rant S.K.
              I just hate those little platitudes that have been floating around for the past 7 yrs. They divert attention away from the real issues, just as they are supposed to do.

              And by the way, one of the Bush girls spent considerable time volunteering in I think it was Africa or Caribbean while daddy was in the white house.

              Hope you had a good day.
              Very cold here.
              JAC

  6. Let’s hope that Karma (or some brave souls who know the truth) come out to expose the litany of lies that is being spewed by the current administration and Congress. I am disgusted at how these people can tell such fish tales with a straight face, and a significant number of Americans either believe all the crap or don’t give a hoot. Here’s to Karma catching up with Barney, Chris, Harry, Chucky, Janet, Rahm, and most of all, Barry, before they take this country down. Oh, yes, and let’s not forget the mainstream media.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      The same vitriol should be applied based on full disclosure of all the facts. One must suspect there is a reason a man we never heard from for 8 years is suddenly on a publicity tour while his ‘boss’ is oddly silent. Why do I think Cheney is readying to fall on a sword?

      • Alan F. says:

        Bush said publicly he wouldn’t do anything to interfere with Obama’s presidency and has more than kept his word. That can’t be argued Ray as its pure fact. Cheney made no such promise and I don’t doubt does not hold the office of the president with reverence W does. Obama made such a promise and broke it when it was expedient to do such which is also unassailable as the footage of him doing this has been seen by all who are still watching.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          I know – much as I don’t like Bush I think he has earned the right to have the truth, if possible, come out.

      • Full disclosure indeed. Now that the administration is politicizing Gitmo with the unnecessary release of information and photos which will only serve to put our troops in more danger, then they should release ALL of the documents including those that may have demonstrated that terror attacks on Americans were averted using so called enhanced interrogation methods. Why only go half way? Oh right, because it serves their political agenda.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          I think both sides are politicizing now – I’d like to see folks like Pelosi commenting under oath instead of the media

  7. Ray Hawkins says:

    Great – here we go again – USW cooking the facts or drawing conclusions from supposed facts and/or what he hears from Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/Coulter/insert-equally-hateful-conservative-scumbag-here…..

    The fact of the matter USW is that the facts are very much in dispute. I am not a Pelosi nuthugger, indeed there is a reason her popularity numbers are so low. I’m sure you have read that the memos you reference are based upon ‘recollections’ of who was at the briefings and what was discussed – I know for sure there is a difference b/n minutes and recollections, esp. when there is any post-hoc CYA happening. I’m sure you have also read that there are additonal supposed attendees, or aides to primary attendees that also attended that are disputing and countering what is now being held as fact by the GOP and by you.

    On this matter I say go the route of full disclosure – open them up because the cat is out of the bag. There is a serious wound here that isn’t going to heal unless it is fully treated. If that means Pelosi is a guilty as Cheney/Bush then so be it – the issue of focus on Pelosi as the harbinger here is misguided and detracts from the what the scope of investigation should be – you’re only adding to that.

    Now – for other matters…….

    Financial Crisis caused by Bush deregulation – well – I don’t agree with this either, but I also know that scumbags like Phil Gramm have PLENTY of dirt under their fingernails on this one.

    Housing Crisis caused by Bush pushing for sup-prime lending – again, not Bush – unfortunately Cheney/Bush weren’t packing the gear either to see where that mess was headed.

    The Republicans took us to an illegal war in Iraq – illegal/immoral – you’re mincing words – we didn’t belong there and you damn well know it. Woodward and others have set this out pretty clearly – if the original/source information is bad/flawed/cooked/fabricated and it was done so at the direct/indirect behest of Cheney/Bush then Congress was precluded from acting in full faith

    The Patriot Act was all Bush/Cheney – see above – but both to blame here.

    Republicans are in the Pocket of Big Business – you are correct – the funded Dems more because they knew where the election was headed

    The Republican Animals Tortured those poor Detainees and we Democrats are Going to Fight for Them – open the books – full disclosure. If a reasonable person see all/some of the acts as torture then they are torture and the person/persons directly responsible should be held accountable. You’re being very presumptive that Democrats were ‘in on it’ as I stated above.

    Now back to the coffee………..

    • Ray, If waterboarding saved American lives and kept attacks from happening, then I say waterboard away.

      G!

      • As most here know, SERE school students undergo the same type of treatment in order to train for what we know will happen if captured. There is no danger of death or physical harm, just some good ol mind screwing. We do it to our own people every day.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          Well – I think you again have to assess what a ‘normal person’ would react to (man – I do hate legal terms) – I would suggest SERE students are not normal in the sense they likely have better constitutions than most – a head doctor I am not however.

          • Richmond Spitfire says:

            Hi Ray,

            I would also like to suggest that “terrorists” are not normal people.

            Regards,
            RS

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        G – that is why I say prove it – prove it is consistently successful in doing so and not a misguided strategy. Show the memos Cheney references (at least in a Court if not the GP).

        • I will agree that full disclosure, no holding back, would be the best way to go.

      • esomhillgazette says:

        I got tortured worse than that in Basic Training. If the Army can’t prosecute my Drill Instructors, they can’t prosecute any of the EIT guys.

      • Alan F. says:

        What most seem to miss is that making a capture puts your own men at risk. If the capture is meaningless, why bother putting your men in harm’s way? I can tell you for a fact my brother, who has his chance for RSM after Darfur next year, told me it was a bad idea to neuter information retrieval. I don’t doubt for a second he’ll advise his men in Afghanistan to cover their own and tag the baddies every time. I can’t see his American counterparts doing any different.

        The dead would no doubt thank president Obama personally for not having to endure a 1-200 chance at being water boarded or a 100% chance of being in a room with a bright light when they can have their 72 virgins.

        Having gone through bone cancer as a 12 year old in arms of 1975 medicine I can tell you for an absolute fact that pain you can’t possibly imagine was mine to endure and living was certainly worth every agonizing moment. Given the choice we all take as much as can be endured over death every single time.

    • Ray;

      Pelosi is a waste of flesh. She is sucking up the air that was provided for good and decent folks. She is a bitter and nasty women bent on leading a full assualt on the basic Constitutional rights of good and decent Americans; and her only regard is for her tyranical regime change. She is power hungry and crazed. Any way we can impeach her is a good way.

      Dem’s verses Rep’s and the finger pointing that goes on and on and on is teadeous and mind numbing. It’s kind of like riding in the car with bickering children in the back seat. You get to a point where you really don’t care who is right you just want it to stop. Maybe we as voting majority should take the attitude of my father on occasions like that: “Don’t make me pull over and come back there”

      There are only a few good apples left in the barrel, but the effort required to find them is not worth the effort; just go buy another barrel and start fresh. THIS GOVERNMENT NEEDS AN ENEMA!!!!!!!!

      Housing Crisis – Clinton and Congress, Bush and Congress, and an Entitlement minded public.

      Iraq – My son was there for the initial “Shock and Awe” and again in 2005 as a Combat Medic with the 3rd ID 1st 15th. He lost 12 brothers. He witnessed a great deal of horror and cruelty administered by Sadam’s regime. Iraq is not a country or life style we can fully grasp. Is their life better as a result of our efforts???????? Time will tell. My son will tell you that we are a safer country having removed Sadam, becasue anyone that would treat his own kind that way is surely crazy enough to branch out.

      All in all maybe we shouldn’t have gone, but then again maybe we should have stayed out of Germany and Japan. Controlling evil minimizes its chances to spread

      Patriot Act or Cyber Security – Does anybody really believe that this type of “Big Brother” activity is controlable? Come on…the government has been spying on everyone for years legal of otherwise. Its not legal or ethical, but laws are not going to stop it.

      Torture – IF we could have captured an individual that new the exact details of 911 two days prior, how many out there would have felt bad, or disagreed with using whatever methods were needed to extract the specific details?

      The best way to deal with someone who wants to kill you is to do onto them first.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        I don’t disagree with most of what you state – however, intent a priori is awfully tough to prove in all cases, and it already sounds like you don’t trust our government to make that call.

      • Alan F. says:

        Nancy Pelosi makes Canadian liberals squirm and that’s saying something, none of it good.

      • Excellent reply Common Man, it couldn’t be more clear than that, but then again some just will never see, thank you!

    • Alan F. says:

      You’ll give Bill “default credit swaps” Clinton a pass on creating this with his Community Reinvestment Act? Now try to blame Bush for not getting this money back from those who could not afford the loans in the first place or not canceling that astounding gimme being eaten up wholesale by minorities? If he could have, he’d have recouped infinitely more than the financial institutions themselves were able and that might have been fun to see from a distance. The government has one hell of a time getting a welfare overpayment back, you think for a second the CRA genie could be put back in the bottle? The riots in LA would have been a cub scout outing in comparison and I’ve little doubt someone in Bush’s bunch would have advised him of just that.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        So says you – I am not giving anyone a pass – I understand enough about cycles and macro-economics to know that Bush I should not have been blamed for what was started in the first Reagan administration and that Cheney-Bush were not much more than enablers of what started under Clinton.

        • Just to add alittle, the CRA was signed by Carter, updated by Clinton. Obama was Acorns attorney when they sued Citi for discriminating lending practices. McCain wanted to roll in Fannie and Freddie in ’05, but Dodd threatened a filibuster. Seems to me there is plenty of blame to be passed out. This can all be verified, just don’t have all the links right now.

          G!

    • Bama dad says:

      “The Republicans took us to an illegal war in Iraq – illegal/immoral – you’re mincing words – we didn’t belong there and you damn well know it. Woodward and others have set this out pretty clearly – if the original/source information is bad/flawed/cooked/fabricated and it was done so at the direct/indirect behest of Cheney/Bush then Congress was precluded from acting in full faith”

      In 2004 the Senate Intelligence Committee said, in a report adopted unanimously by both Republican and Democratic members:
      Senate Intelligence Committee: The Committee did not find any evidence that intelligence analysts changed their judgments as a result of political pressure, altered or produced intelligence products to conform with Administration policy, or that anyone even attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to do so. When asked whether analysts were pressured in any way to alter their assessments or make their judgments conform with Administration policies on Iraq’s WMD programs, not a single analyst answered “yes.” (p273)
      A later bipartisan commission, co-chaired by Republican appeals-court judge Laurence Silberman and a Democratic former governor and senator from Virginia, Charles Robb, issued a report in March, 2005 saying:
      Silberman-Robb Report: These (intelligence) errors stem from poor tradecraft and poor management. The Commission found no evidence of political pressure to influence the Intelligence Community’s pre-war assessments of Iraq’s weapons programs. As we discuss in detail in the body of our report, analysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments. We conclude that it was the paucity of intelligence and poor analytical tradecraft, rather than political pressure, that produced the inaccurate pre-war intelligence assessments.

      Speech by Bill Clinton Dec. 1998

      Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.
      Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.
      Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.
      And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.

      Did not know old George W was so powerful: twist old slick Willy’s arm in 1998 to declare Iraq had WMDs-twist all the Dims on the 2004 committee and the 2005 commission to say no political pressure was used to cook the data -make most of the intelligence agencies in the world agree with our WMD intelligence.

      He was more powerful than a speeding train, able to leap tall building in a single bound, look-look up in the sky, Is it a bird? Is it a plane? NOOO it’s super Bush.

    • Amazed1 says:

      House Speaker Nancy Pelosi reportedly was told in February 2003 by her intelligence aide, Michael Sheehy, that waterboarding was used on CIA terror detainee Abu Zubaydah, directly contradicting Pelosi’s account that she had never been informed of the technique’s use.
      Shame on the hateful Democrates…turning on their own. Poor Nancy her own intelligence aide.

    • USWeapon says:

      “Great – here we go again – USW cooking the facts or drawing conclusions from supposed facts and/or what he hears from Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/Coulter/insert-equally-hateful-conservative-scumbag-here…..”

      First and foremost, I don’t listen to any of those people. Coulter is nasty so I discount just about anything she says. Rush and Hannity are in their own world. They hit facts honestly about 20% of the time. Beck… I wouldn’t exactly put him in the same crowd, and I have heard some of his stuff. I don’t need conservative hacks to tell me my opinion. I can read and research and come up with one on my own.

      This isn’t based on the CIA memos or recollections of the meetings in Congress. Those were just the precursors that gave her the rope to hang herself. It was her personal intelligence aide that came out and said that he told her in 2003. If it is my job to give intelligence to a member of Congress, I think I can remember accurately whether I told her or didn’t tell her.

      You made the claim to start your comment that I was cooking the facts or drawing conclusions. That implies that you think I am wrong or drawing wrong conclusions. Which facts about the Pelosi deal are you disputing. Do you really believe that she DIDN’T know about this? I know you don’t like my approach. You seem to get your feathers ruffled when I attack a Democrat for being bad. But you aren’t offering much here to dispute any of my claims about Pelosi. You merely say I am wrong, cooking or drawing conclusions, and then say you want full disclosure. So do I. The facts I presented were:

      1. Republicans are bad. Democrats are just as much to blame for every ill as Republicans.
      2. Pelosi is nasty and mean and partisan beyond comparison.
      3. Pelsoi attended intelligence briefings where EIT’s were disclosed.
      4. Pelosi denied knowing anything.
      5. Pelosi’s own Democratic Intelligence Aide called her on her lies.
      6. Karma is catching up to one of Congress’s worst, even if only a little.
      7. I gave examples of several issues where Democrats blame Republicans for what happened. I pointed out the flaw in that claim. I didn’t exonerate any Republicans, I indicted Democrats right along with them.

      Now you explain to me where I am cooking the facts, drawing invalid conclusions, or taking my opinion from the conservative radio. IMHO, you take these things a bit to personally and turn off to the fact that I don’t like either of these two shitty parties.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        1. Republicans are bad. Democrats are just as much to blame for every ill as Republicans.

        Ray: not bones there – you tend not to present it as such though – I still think you’re a closet Republican with a weakly hidden agenda but – hey – its your blog and I don’t have to read it

        2. Pelosi is nasty and mean and partisan beyond comparison.

        Ray: pretty true – her numbers show it – she does her party little to no favors

        3. Pelsoi attended intelligence briefings where EIT’s were disclosed.

        Ray: She attended briefings where torture techniques were discussed/disclosed

        4. Pelosi denied knowing anything.

        Ray: You’re lying – there is video where she acknowledges

        5. Pelosi’s own Democratic Intelligence Aide called her on her lies.

        Ray: not so fast – depending on the news source either the aide said she lied, a “source close to Pelosi” commenting on the aide said the aide said she is lying, or the aide has said nothing of the sort (which has been supposedly supported by claims of others at the briefings). I am not saying you’re lying on this one – merely that you’re quoting right wing sources and I’m quoting left wing sources – fun eh?

        6. Karma is catching up to one of Congress’s worst, even if only a little.

        Ray: maybe – if she is guilty of something then charge her, jail her, censure her, remove her from her post, whatever – but treat one and all the same (crap – damn socialist)

        7. I gave examples of several issues where Democrats blame Republicans for what happened. I pointed out the flaw in that claim. I didn’t exonerate any Republicans, I indicted Democrats right along with them.

        Ray: And I agreed with you on several – both sides playing the political game

        Do I think she didn’t know? My gut feeling is that a lot of people knew about the torture – I say this because politicians are incredibly adept at covering their asses and this would be no exception where the GOP placed leaders across the aisle on a hook they didn’t know they were being placed on. She probably knew but probably doesn’t count.

        • USWeapon says:

          Ray,

          So we aren’t so far apart on this as you presented initially. If we are in agreement on most of these issues, am I a closet Republican hack, or am I just correct on those issues, regardless of my lean left or right? As for your answers:

          4. Pelosi denied knowing anything.

          Ray: You’re lying – there is video where she acknowledges
          USW: Where is this video? I am interested in viewing it. “We were not — I repeat — were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used,” That quote is from Nancy Pelosi. “Further,” she said, “the point was that if and when they would be used, they could brief Congress at that time…My experience was they did not tell us they were using that, flat out. And any contention to the contrary is simply not true.” She made that statement in an April 23 news conference. Go look it up. Specifically, the CIA timeline states that on Sept. 4, 2002, Pelosi and Porter Goss, then-Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence received a “Briefing on EITs including use of EITs on (alleged al-Qaeda operative) Abu Zubaydah, background on authorities, and a description of the particular EITs that had been employed.” She knew. In that 4/23 press conference, she said she was not told. I am not lying. She is.

          5. Pelosi’s own Democratic Intelligence Aide called her on her lies.

          Ray: not so fast – depending on the news source either the aide said she lied, a “source close to Pelosi” commenting on the aide said the aide said she is lying, or the aide has said nothing of the sort (which has been supposedly supported by claims of others at the briefings). I am not saying you’re lying on this one – merely that you’re quoting right wing sources and I’m quoting left wing sources – fun eh?
          USW: I’ll roll with you on this one. Time will have to tell as to whether the aide is saying it or a source close to Pelosi or close to the aide, or whatever. But I worked in Washington. I know enough to know that if one Democrat in Congress knew what was going on, then all Democratic leadership in Congress knew what was going on. Same goes for the Republicans. You are naive if you believe anything other than that.

          • SFC Dick says:

            Nah….

            US aint a real republican, he just dissagrees with many, ok most, of the democrat line.

            see here is the greater issue, as I see it and I see all, that keeps popping it’s head up.

            It seems when some one dissagrees with a statement or action by the democrats that he MUST be republican and all that infers, visa versa.

            I have faced this all my life.

            why can’t I just be a guy that thinks that is crap with out the extension therefore I’m a _______.

    • dealemslim says:

      clueless fools never seem so amaze me so much as make me sick

  8. In USW’s previous post and discussion on the so-called torture/interrogation methods, most writers agreed that they had expected much worse when this first became an issue, and maybe these methods weren’t so severe after all. Well, do you think that maybe those Congress members, including Pelosi, that were informed of these tactics during their briefings also thought that same way and that is why there were no objections?

    And yet, rather than just come out and say that, it is now assumed these methods were excessive and the denials start. I just would appreciate some honesty from Washington: “Yes, I knew of the methods being used and because of the environment surrounding 9-11, I felt it best to gather as much information as possible from these detainees to keep our country safe.” The End

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Hi Kathy…

      As Common Man would say, “Right-On”! My new buzz-word of the day!

      Regards,
      RS

  9. Bee in my Bonnet says:

    I just finished watching the President talking about health care reform and he has left it to Nancy Pelosi and her house to come up with a bill by July 31. Whatever altruistic reason that Obama has for implementing health care reform, having Nancy Pelosi attached to it makes it unpalatable.

    She gives me the heebie jeebies.

    • esomhillgazette says:

      Obama also let Pelosi and her house write the Stimulus Bill. How is that working for the American people? How exactly can Obama, who has repeatedly talked and campaigned for this “Health Reform” before, during, and after he won the election, now just hand over the responsibility of writing up the Bill for it to the biggest dumbass in Congress?

      It sounds to me like another case of passing the buck. Now he will always be able to blame someone else when this thing gets filled with billions of dollars of pork that has nothing to do with “Health”. Just like he did with all the pork that had nothing to do with “Stimulus”.

    • Alan F. says:

      She’d give Trudeau’s ghost the “heebie jeebies”.

  10. The Audicity of liberals. US “cooking facts”. You play that game well Ray. Drawing conclusions, that’s a fair statement. You have a problem with Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh & Coulter? How about O’Reilley? Are the first four not all commentators? Do you view all conservatives as “hateful, scumbags”, or just those on TV?

    Fact, Pelosi lied. She stated she had “No knowledge of enhanced interrogation.
    She has recanted. Spin, twist, go ahead. Listen and believe whatever excuses she makes.

    You want Bush & Cheney’s head’s on a block? OK, fine, but they do not go alone. The war & Patriot Act were approved by congress. Every senator & congressman who voted for them are on the hook as well.

    Illegal and immoral are different words with different meanings. You want to harp on Bush & congress both falling for the CIA and UN thinking Saddam still had WMD. Hans Blix, the chief UN inspector stated there were 8,500 liter of anthrax, 1.5 metric tons of VX nerve agent and 6,500 chemical bombs unaccounted for.
    On October 31, a bill was signed stating, it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power and replace it with a democratic government. The Senate vote was unanimous, the House was overwhelming in favor, 360-38. The US & UK began the attack with 650 bombing sorties and 415 cruise missiles strike on Iraq. More than during the entire first Gulf War.

    My bad, that was by Clinton in 1998. He did that without UN support. And Ray, my information did not come from the media, check me for any errors, because I want to be completely truthful.

    Republican Animals? How do you know what their party was or if they have one?
    Poor Detainees? They were enemy COMBATANTS. You feel sorry for “people” who cut off heads of peace workers, but call American soldiers “animals” for being to harsh with them. I just finished reading “Lone Survivor” by Marcus Luttrell.
    It would be good for you to read, but I suspect too much reality would ruin you image of the world.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      “The Audacity of liberals. US “cooking facts”. You play that game well Ray. Drawing conclusions, that’s a fair statement. You have a problem with Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh & Coulter? How about O’Reilley? Are the first four not all commentators? Do you view all conservatives as “hateful, scumbags”, or just those on TV?”

      What facts am I cooking? I was clear that what is being passed as fact by USW are very much in dispute. And sorry – I forgot O’Reilley – I also think he is a scumbag jerkoff. As much as I like Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow I detest the aforementioned equally. My real point was that they are as dangerous as dear old Nancy. Just my opinion.

      “Fact, Pelosi lied. She stated she had “No knowledge of enhanced interrogation.
      She has recanted. Spin, twist, go ahead. Listen and believe whatever excuses she makes.”

      You are wrong. Wrong wrong wrong – there is little to no proof that she lied about anything regarding the subject at hand – that is an unsubstantiated conclusion put forth by the Conservative Media/Blogoshere. There is tremendous debate over what she or anyone else knew at the time – but again and rightfully so – diversionary tactic that is frequently used by the GOP when they poop the bed.

      “You want Bush & Cheney’s head’s on a block? OK, fine, but they do not go alone. The war & Patriot Act were approved by congress. Every senator & congressman who voted for them are on the hook as well.”

      Torture is a crime. Torture was committed. Whoever authorized/enforced its use should be held accountable. That is my position.

      “Illegal and immoral are different words with different meanings. You want to harp on Bush & congress both falling for the CIA and UN thinking Saddam still had WMD. Hans Blix, the chief UN inspector stated there were 8,500 liter of anthrax, 1.5 metric tons of VX nerve agent and 6,500 chemical bombs unaccounted for.
      On October 31, a bill was signed stating, it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power and replace it with a democratic government. The Senate vote was unanimous, the House was overwhelming in favor, 360-38. The US & UK began the attack with 650 bombing sorties and 415 cruise missiles strike on Iraq. More than during the entire first Gulf War.”

      Does not make it right – there are dozens of Iraq’s out there – when do we commence bombing on them? I find it troubling that many if the same people that decry how incompetent and worthless the UN is/was now quote them? Odd – very odd. If those items existed why does that gives us the right to attack them?

      My bad, that was by Clinton in 1998. He did that without UN support. And Ray, my information did not come from the media, check me for any errors, because I want to be completely truthful.

      “Republican Animals? How do you know what their party was or if they have one?
      Poor Detainees? They were enemy COMBATANTS. You feel sorry for “people” who cut off heads of peace workers, but call American soldiers “animals” for being to harsh with them. I just finished reading “Lone Survivor” by Marcus Luttrell.
      It would be good for you to read, but I suspect too much reality would ruin you image of the world.”

      I love reality – in fact – I prefer a reality where I don’t sink to the depravity of the beasts that exist in this world. I am not them and I will look in mirror comfortable with that.

      • Ray,

        You love reality? Bush should be punished for war crimes? You can say that if you also call on everyone in congress who voted for war.
        You can say that if you will call for Bill Clinton to be tried for mass murder, and his congress. I will not agree with you, but would respect you for being un-biased.

        Quotes from the UN are odd? Is that relevant? ARE they ACCURATE? I will quote Maddow or Matthews if they say something true and relevant. How about you? O’Reilley is a reporter, if he says something true and verifiable, would you listen?

        Are you going to read that book, or stay safely in that world of denial where you live. 9/11 happened. There are people out there who want to kill you, your family and everyone you know. Turn the other cheek, bury your head and act morally superior. You only believe Maddow and Olbermann because they tell you what you want to hear. Check out how many times they have “spun” things to your liking. You have heard about “Tea Parties” from people here who went to them and even organized them. Did their side of it match your spin doctors?

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          LOI

          Let me help you out here:

          Gimto torture approval and Iraq war approval = two different things

          If Cheney-Bush are guilty of crime should they not be punished? If Clinton were guilty of something should he not too been pursued? (I mean c’mon – we chased the slickster over some spilled body fluid)

          They day you guys quote Rachel or Keith is the day I…………well, nevermind, no use debating the impossible.

          Everyday:

          Morning Drive: Michael Smerconish (conservative/moderate)
          Afternoon Drive (when I am traveling): Rush
          PM Drive: Sean Hannity & Howard Eskin (sorry, need some sports from time to time)

          Daily papers read: New York Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, Philly Daily News, Wall Street Journal, New York Post

          Typical Sites Visited: here, Huff Post, Drudge

          Twits I Follow: CNN, MSNBC, FOX, Joe Scarborough, Karl Rove, John McCain

          Books on my nightstand: God is not Great, Team of Rivals, Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media, The Oh Really? Factor: Unspinning Fox News Channel’s Bill O’Reilly, The Essential Chomsky, Conservatives Without Conscience, Iceman: My Fighting Life, Mastering the Rubber Guard: Jiu Jitsu for Mixed Martial Arts – I read anywhere from 60-90 minutes per night and not usually the same book on consecutive nights

          Periodicals I subscribe to and read: Harvard Business Review, Inc, Fast Company, Vanity Fair, Newsweek, Time, Playboy, Maxim, Black Belt, Grappling, Network World, SC Magazine, ISSA Journal, ISACA Journal, CIO, CFO and Parenting

          I don’t share this to impress you – I share this because (a) I am an information junkie and (b) I refuse to listen to a single voice.

          I don’t pretend to have all the answers and while I know I have been spun before I try hard as hell not to be spun more – even by those who market that they are not spinning or claim to have the pulse of the masses.

          • Ray,

            Gitmo torture & Iraq war I link because you have spoken for Bush/Cheney being prosecuted for both.
            I added Clinton to the list because if Bush’s Iraq war is illegal, then Clinton’s was as well. I agree
            with you on how Clinton was treated over Lunski was a waste and abhorrent.

            I am not “you guys”. I think for myself, and try to be open minded. I quote the UN, that does not mean I approve of them as a whole. Now you have given me a challenge, to find something useful to quote Maddow & co. on, I look forward to that.

            Your media sources is diverse. I prefer to avoid those who disparage people they dislike, such as Coulter or Huff. Post. Vanity Fair?? That explains you being so out there. LOL

            My objection to some of your comments is the partisan attacks. I do not like Franks, but do not give a hoot about his party. I do care that they and the media have protected him. The outrage over the 165 million AIG bonuses, when Fred/Fan were getting 210 mil. Tell me where I am wrong?

          • Alan F. says:

            Ray, I’ll let you in on something. There isn’t a non partisan publication anywhere on this globe. They are all bent by those in its employ.

      • Ray;

        I’m starting to figure you out, at least I think so, but I could be wrong. I was once before, once.

        I think you are a kind and decent person with an appreciation for each and every soul that walks this earth. Maybe you are a religous person, or at least spiritual. Either way God bless your appreciation for mankind.

        I think you see the good in all. At the same time I am glad that there are those out there like USW, SFC and me to keep folks like you safe. We need spiritual folks to maintain the ideal of utopia. It enables us to maintain an idealistic view and a goal to strive for.

        Keep the faith baby

      • dealemslim says:

        ray, you cooked all the facts. if the hammer bashed your skull in and the sickle cut your legs off at the knees you would still love your communistic ways. hateful republicans? dude, what about the black panthers intimidating at the polls? ray, whats next? the race card?

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          What facts am I cooking? Please do tell. There is hate on both sides – that I acknowledge – it is certainly hard enough to get the concession from the far right here, esp. with a resounding number of Limbaugh et a; nuthuggers.

          Engage me on the facts you believe I have wrong and I will engage likewise.

  11. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    If you add Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh, and Beck together, you still do not come up with as much scum in a bag as you do with Pelosi all by herself….

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      Well – the aforementioned – what with Rush and all his Oxycontin would at least weigh more but maybe not smell as bad.

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

        My main concern is that Rush, Hannity, Coulter and Beck are radio personalities and/or columnists. They do have the opportunity to attempt to sway public opinion by their viewpoints.

        On the other hand, Pelosi has a position of high authority within the House of Representatives. In her case, she not only has the opportunity to sway public opinion, but her office lends her pronouncements an air of credence and respectibility (even when it can be shown that she is out-right lying) and she also has the ability to set public policy and enact legislation.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          Boss and the others have very strong, almost Branch Davidian-type followings – he (Boss) has shown the ability to influence lawmakers.

          • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

            Ray, the Branch Davidians were murdered by a Democratic Administration. Are you suggesting that Rush and his followers be murdered by the current administration?

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              They weren’t murdered by a Democratic Administration.

              Keep the dittoheads by all means – I need the comic relief.

              • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

                Ray, who did murder them then? It is point of fact that they were killed by the government which initiated force upon them without provocation. I believe that when you initiate force against someone without provocation and it results in the death of the person or people you initiated force against, you have committed murder. You can attempt to sugar-coat it by calling it something else if you prefer.

            • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

              Oh, and by the way, Rush, Hannity, Coulter and Beck have a much larger following than the branch Davidians. I could make a parallel between the cult-figure-like power of Barack Obama and compare him to Jim Jones, but Obama is far more powerful than Jim Jones, and Obama makes better Kool-aid.

              • The key difference is that Rush, Hannity, Coulter, and Beck don’t want us to drink any Koolaid, they want us to think.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                You’re not serious I hope

              • I think he is serious. I never believe anything anyone says unless it can be verified by an independent source but I have found good info from most of the above.

                Let me rate them from my perspective:

                Rush 80% on. Sometimes goes off heavily on something he knows little or nothing about. Was co-opted by Bush by being invited to play golf with POTUS.

                Hannity, knows little about anything in any depth. Rarely listen to him especially since “Marty” passed away. His, “you are a great American” really grates on me. “Oh yesh, what did you do to earn that title?” is my usual response. Somebody making 18.4 million dollars writing a patriotic song or lauding the troops at a concert does not a great American make.

                Coulter, Love her! The absolute and ultimate bomb thrower. She makes me uncomfortable as hell but is our answer to Oberman, Moore, Garofolo, Franken, Matthews et al (their bomb throwers). She usually has her facts right but occessionally will slip into hero worship. Detested her support for Rumsfeld for example. She was not objective because she was trying to defend him without looking back at the record.

                Beck, still too new for me to rate completely. Seems to have his facts right but gets more hysterical than he should.

                O’Reilly, Usually right on the money but suffers from being 1. a pompous ass and 2. Not up on facts. It’s painful to watch him discuss 2nd amendment stuff, he does not know the arguments. He also has an inferiority complex because of his lower middle class background and his Catholic education.

                Ray, maybe I’m wrong about this, but none of the above have ever urged me to take their word as gospel, If anything, they have encouraged me to learn more independently.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                FWIW there are books that detail how both Coulter and O’Reilly both get the facts wrong – frequently.

          • Alan F. says:

            Wow I said almost the exact same thing about Jabba the Gore and his disciples… and the balance is restored.

        • I think her real power is more subtle which is control of committees, and instead of doing anything, letting initiatives die in committee.

          Why did you start a Rush, hannity, O’reily evaluation! I’m a news talk radio type person, but where I currently live there’s only one talk station to listen to. I first heard Limbaugh – what back in late 80’s -’90’s ? .. IDK, but I didn’t listen very much because his pompous attitude turned me off. And he liked to make outrageous statements. I recall he went on a tirade about something that wAS PRIMARILY financial in nature, since I’m basically have a financial background, I listened carefully. Low and behold, by the next news cycle – Barbara Walters (or Leslie Stall or ..) was telling the world how wrong and nasty and stupid and blah blah blah – it was covered in the newspapers the next day.

          Of course – it turns out he was right ‘on target’ and effectively got another jolt of advertising with more listeners. I think this scenerio happened more than a few times, resulting in more & more listeners, so that the MSM has finally learned just to ignore him.

          I only listen when in in the car which is infrequent, but I expect if he makes erroneous statements currently, its because he feels he’s too strong to warrant censure. I’m sure he makes obnoxious and outlandish statements, but push come to shove, I assume he has the data to back him up, and if not he sure as should because he can fund a good staff.

      • Ahhhhhhhh Ray, why not discontinue with all the Demobabble, you’re really not offering anything constructive at all, no wonder our country is headed in the wrong direction.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          This whole thread was misguided Larry. Easy to criticize a Democrat nut job like Nancy but you guys get pissed when I point out the double standard?

          • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

            Ray,

            I will agree that nut-jobs abound on either side of the aisle. That wasn’t the point of USWeapon’s post today. The point was that a nut-job that happens to be on the left lied and got caught, and most of us here are pretty happy about it.

            If you ACTUALLY followed what happens on this site rather than just look for reasons to insert moveon.org talking points into the conversation, we generally argue that both the Democrat party and the Republican party are broken, probably beyond repair. We do not believe that either current party has the means, the desire, or the capability to restore America to its constitutional roots.

            I tend to favor the Republicans more than the Democrats, because the Republicans at least give lip-service to the ideas of freedom, liberty and personal responsibility. However, as USWeapon has pointed out time and time again on this site, it rarely goes beyond lip-service. I guess I would just rather listen to people who pretend to value freedom and liberty as opposed to people who make no pretence whatsoever about wanting to contol all aspects of the lives of the people.

            “All politicians lie — I just like Republican lies better than Democrat lies” – Bob Dornan, former member of the US House of Representatives, (R) California.

            • Richmond Spitfire says:

              Hi Peter,

              I agree and support your post.

              RS

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              I follow things pretty closely Peter – and btw – I have actually never visited moveon.org’s website. I’ll state first that this is USW’s blog – he can do whatever the hell he wants. But to suggest there is equal parts disdain is really a fallacy. Spending 90% of a blog whining about the left and dropping a small bone to ‘attack’ the right/GOP doesn’t cut it. I call b.s. – I smell a Republican mad at his own party who voted for Obama and almost immediately turned heel to write a frequently informative and entertaining blog that pretends to give both sides equal quantities of fire. I am merely the voice of reason (ok – stop laughing) here.

              • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

                Ray, I do not know if you are necessarily the “voice of reason” although the comment didn’t necessarily make me laugh.

                Back when I was in college I was a huge liberal. I thought that it was the duty of the government to take care of the poor and downtrodden of society, and the duty of the government to make sure that all had equal access to health care, jobs, education, and a myriad of other services.

                Then I grew up, had a family of my own, and realized that the government was taking away money that I HAD EARNED BY WORKING FOR IT and GIVING it to people who had done nothing whatsoever to earn it other than fail to do anything to earn it on their own.

                At that point I wised up and realized that maybe government SHOULDN’T have all of these responsibilities that I once thought that they should have.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                And on and on it goes…..

                What responsibilities should the government have?

                Should people have equal access to healthcare, jobs, education, ‘other services’?

                Are the recipients merely people that have failed to earn their own way…..

              • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

                Response moved to #16

              • Ray;

                Americans are free and can access anything, but they are not entitled. We earn our livings and we pay for our privaleges. We earn our licenses to drive and we pay to keep them. Health care is a benefit garnered through our employer or one we pay ourselves. Jobs are awarded and we work to keep them while education is a privlage earned and paid for.

                I have no problem with helping a downed man back up on his feet, but I don’t chose to provide him with $400K homes, BCBS benefits, a free ride into college and I won’t pay for him to set at home and watch Jerry Springer.

                There just isn’t enough money to go around and 37% of my income is too much to ask for. The Bible says to give 10% to the house of God and I am OK with that, but when you couple that with the 37% I CONTRIBUTE to the Feds, I wind up working 8 hours for 3.75 hours of pay.

                Maybe you can afford that but not me.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                Not here CM – as I have said elsewhere – effective rather than bigger government.

              • esomhillgazette says:

                I throw the bullshit flag also. Who gives a damn who USW voted for? If I had voted for the worthless lying bastard and fell for his “hope and change” horseshit, I’d be mad as hell too! I would also be on a crusade like Nubian is, to debunk the lies and distortions this Administration and his Democratic Liberal flunkies are daily spouting. I have to applaud USW, even IF, he voted for that turd.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                I was merely pointing out how quick the turn was from inauguration/day one to ‘man this guys sucks’. Either there was an agenda or unheard of and unseen vision as to what was going to happen.

              • Richmond Spitfire says:

                I can only speak for myself and I say that I think that guy sucked even before Inauguration! He’s a shady character with some really shady connections.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                At least you’re honest

              • Yes Indeed, RS! Yes indeed.

              • Kristian says:

                I said it while the campaign was gong on, I said it after he got elected and I’ll say it again for all here to see, Obama is the Anti-Christ. Plain and simple.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                Help me – late in the day and coffee wore off – you’re joking right?

              • Kristian says:

                Reply in #18

              • USWeapon says:

                I HAVE TO ASK AGAIN…. DID I SAY I VOTED FOR OBAMA SOMEWHERE?

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                I am pretty sure you have stated this before – either in this blog or elsewhere. Maybe you just “supported him” and penciled your own name in? You tell us.

              • USWeapon says:

                I did not vote for Barack Obama. Once he was elected President, I did in fact support him. He became the President whether I liked it or not. And I decided I would give him a chance to prove he wasn’t what I feared he was. I gave you my answers the other day as to when I withdrew much of that support. There are still some things I support him on. I have gone on record here several times saying I don’t think he is evil, just wrong. Others feel differently and they are entitled to do so. I try, Ray, to look at every issue from both sides and see where it is coming from. I know it hurts liberals feelings that I am attacking them so much lately. But they have all the power and get to make all the moves right now, so they get the focus of my rants. Put a Republican Congress in place or a Republican President and all you liberal folks will think I am an oracle of wisdom.

              • Nope, he didn’t.

      • dealemslim says:

        go away ray, huff post is more your kind of lib hole to hang around. at least you can relate with the hate there

        • USWeapon says:

          dealemslim,

          Please refrain from attacking people personally. If you would like to dispute Ray’s conclusions or facts, please do so. But on this site the purpose is to debate with respect and dignity. Welcome to the site.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          Dealemslim – Go away? Don’t want to let me play in the sandbox eh? I’ll share with you that I’m cool with the occasional emotional response as you are putting forth – I am guilty as well and get held in check from time to time. If you read my other posts you’ll realize I am an information junkie – I make honest attempts to see all sides of an issue and am usually (not always) good at using copious amounts of skepticism to whatever I hear or see – be it Rush, Sean, Keith, NYT, Huff or whatever. I try to post in an honest ‘put myself on the hook’ fashion – which is why you’ll find I am one of the very few people on here that will not hide behind a screen name, alter ego or avatar. Can you say the same?

  12. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    http://www.iraqwatch.org/profiles/chemical.html

    It has been proven by UNSCOM that Iraq produced chemical and biological weapons. It has also been proven that they used these weapons against the Kurds, against Shiites in Iraq, and against Iran.

    One could choose to believe that they destroyed all of these weapons as required by UN Mandate. President Clinton chose not to believe so in 1998, and President Bush chose not to believe so in 2001. The fact that very few chemical and biological weapons were found in Iraq after 2001 does not eliminate the possibility of their existence. Is it POSSIBLE that they were all destroyed? Sure, but given the nature of the beast it would be foolhardy at best to believe that to be the case. It is far more likely that the weapons were moved to a location where the US could not search for them (Syria, Iran, etc.) so that it would appear that they had all been destroyed.

    http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iraqs-wmd-secreted-in-syria-sada-says/26514/

    Now, it is possible here that Sada is lying, but for what purpose? I suppose Haliburton/Cheney could have bribed him to make these statements, or perhaps he was offered immunity from any sort of prosecution for making such statements, or it is just possible he is telling the unvarnished truth. It is unlikely that we will ever know for sure.

    What we do know for sure is that Iraq had the capability to make chemical and biological weapons, Iraq did make large quantities of such weapons, and Iraq did use such weapons multiple times. To think that they said sometime between 1998 and 2001, “Hey we better get rid of all this stuff” is probably accurate to a degree. However, did they get rid of the stuff by destroying it or by moving it out of the country in the hopes of being able to get it back in the future?

    I know that is a bit off-topic, but people always bring up that Bush lied to get us into another war with Iraq, and based upon the preponderance of evidence I do not think that it can be conclusively proved that he intentionally lied about anything.

  13. SFC Dick says:

    USWeapon

    Either I’m clairvoyant or I’m a pretty bright boy and have a pretty good idea about what is getting ready start happening to the Obama administration.

    I guess I ought to get crakin’ on my piece I want to write, the one I sent you the E-mail about.

    The system.

    I wish I’d have done it a few weeks ago, it would have had more credibility, but I believe we just saw the tip of the iceberg.

    We will see if that whole damn iceberg crashes through the surface.

    Ok folks, here’s the condensed version.

    The system is neither democrat nor republican, although the democrats continually scream that it is either, or, and, combinations of, subverted by, infiltrated from…republicans/rightwing/conservatives/ (plug in your favorite term).

    The system is what it is, the US government.

    The system can be broken down into.

    Government services.( DMV, EPA etc)

    Governance (which politicians are a part)

    Armed Forces (fire rescue falls more so in this area, and “Agencies” that deal in defense)

    Of all three, only one is predominantly a meritocracy, the Armed Forces.

    The system is nonpartisan , but it sure as hell protects itself from ANY attack.

    That’s enough explanation.

    I know, meaning I K-N-O-W for a fact that brain dead leftists/liberals/democrats will scream that the statement that the system is non partisan is a lie.

    How can it be a lie, Pelosi is on one of its committees, matter of fact democrats chair EVERY ONE.

    But, here’s the thing, the system is perpetual, traditional out of survival, it don’t like to be fucked with.

    Let’s see if the Obama administration is as stupid and arrogant as some people say.

    USWeapon was an “operator” in a past life.

    Anyone doing “special things” especially during these 2 wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, knows all about frequent (daily for trigger pullers) Intel briefs.

    If anyone is so politically blinded, or so or mentally deficient that they don’t realize that a senior member on the INTELLIGENCE committee is getting regular, detailed TOP SECRET briefings from all the alphabet boys, well then there is no helping you.

    The rest of us already knew as a FACT that she was getting briefed.

    ON EVERYTHING.

    This was not a black op, they were sending memos of techniques for legal review, sounds like CYA to me.

    That is why when this whole…

    “Lets investigate Bush”

    “we must investigate Bush for war crimes”

    I said “absolutely” I believe, in the post, on this blog site I said something to the effect “investigate and do not stop until I say”.

    The system (CIA was first, I imagine DIA, NSA etc were all ready to pounce) is not getting involved now out of political motivation.

    Although I’d bet you a dollar that Pelosi will say, if she hasn’t done so already that the “agencies” are playing politics, reasoning_______ (fill in the blank, V-R-C, they are all Bush appointees (lie) or, hell, because the sun rises in the east).

    The reason…..the system is in self preservation mode now. They know they will be tried to be made the fall guys.

    “But Dick, why are they in self preservation, we all know Bush Cheney, Cheney Bush, Cheney, did this, they are the ones we are going after”

    Ha, the simple mind must be so, calming and uncluttered.

    Who did the “work” who conducted the operations, Cheney, well maybe, he did disappear for extended periods.

    I gotta grin big, because I like that inane scenario.

    The VP, Dick, shows up, stereotypical room, one chair, suspended harsh light hanging above, bad shadows, Al Zu Dumsh ‘eet is bound and blind folded, VP Dick walks in, brook brothers suit, says nothing, hands his top coat and sport coat to some Intel dude, rolls up his sleeves and say in that voice, a voice that rivals John Wayne, “OK Sergeant, step outside, I’ve got it here”.

    Nope, the system has been burnt by the democrats way too often in the past 45 years ( God bless you President Carter for one of the biggest)

    They keep many notes, records and such now.

    They were not going to be holding the bag, the bag handed them, Dropped into the laps of members of a fierce meritocracy by a bunch of beauty pageant queens who hold sway because of rigged popularity contests. No sir.

    They just fired a shot across the bow.

    Press some more stupid on them, and they will show you why you operate in the fluff arena of nothing and they operate in the hard core world of daily struggle for survival.

    Word of advice to Pelosi and the rest of the lying vile hacks.

    These dudes got where they are in the system through performance, were promoted from their peers in a very competitive dog eat dog environment.

    Lie some more, point the blame at the armed forces side of the system and out of self preservation they just might spill the beans on a great many committee chairs and members.

    You have lies and press spin, they have documented times, date, content and I would even bet quotes, and signed documents.

    Do NOT FUCK with the system.

    They are eternal and they know where all the bodies are buried.

    They buried them for president, senators and congressmen and have much documentation to prove it.

    “All enlisted men are stupid, but they are cunning and deceitful and bear considerable watching.”

    But we do take notes, IDIOT!

    • esomhillgazette says:

      My only thing is SFC. Why are they waiting so long to “out” these goofy bastards? Is it because they are waiting to see if they’ll actually try do it? I would wait and see also. But if the peckeheads in charge tried it, I would hang every last freakin’ one of ’em out to dry like laundry on a hot summer day!

      I really hope The Pelosi Wingnut crowd does it. It should be quite a circus. And watching the News Media turn on them in a blood frenzy will just be icing on the cake. If it Bleeds, it Leads right?

      • SFC Dick says:

        Esom

        It’s not political, do I seem overtly political?

        I really dislike the liberal leftists, not because they want to legalize pot.

        Not because the want to do most anything they want.

        They Fucked and continue to FUCK my system.

        A push for women in more and more combat cantact rolls. Did we come up with that? Do ya think if it was a good idea we’d say “yeh, we don’t have enough shooter, chicks are superbe find close and destroy types, but we don’t care, aint happening”
        I’ve valuable, limited training time. I have fucking sexual assault training, again again again. In all the NCO schools. We have branch carreer EEO now.
        Really? do you think the dudes that rape just needed a class to tell them, “hey, rapings’bad mkay”

        I as an NCO can not swear when I’m yelling at a shit head? yeh, well, charge me, i’m in combat and don’t have time to “explore the circumstances that the SM might be experiencing in his personal life and try to empathize..” what!

        Do you think I go for don’t ask don’t tell. Hell no because now it turns that whole thing political. We all knew the gays, strange thing that too, you’d get a gay and he’d go to all the toughest combat schools to prove his worth. If he was a productive member of the team no one carred. Carry a banner for a cause, screw him, the only cause is the system.

        these dudes, like me really don’t care who’s in charge WHAT! WHAT!, Bush fucked me, what’s the worst that can happen Obama fucks me?

        It’s more important how the commanding General impliments the presidents plan than the presidents plan.
        The good, right plan was inplace day 1 here. The CG didn’t do it. Bush didn’t fire him.

        Now we got Ikenberry coming back over here, fuck me.

        nah, we work the job, that’s about it

        but, when liberal social engineers want to know why we hate them, there it is. They are fucking with my system.

        • esomhillgazette says:

          As I said earlier, I got tortured worse than those terrorist dudes in Basic Training.

          I watched a show on Army Basic on the Military Channel a year or so ago. I could not believe my freakin’ eyeballs!!!

          You can hold up a card if the DI is on you too hard, and he has to stop. WHAT? My DI would have stuck that card up my ass!

          You cannot cuss them. HUH? 3 words out of every two that came out of my DI’s mouth were cusswords. And ALL of them were directed at YOU. I won’t repeat any of the things we were called.

          Women weren’t allowed in Combat roles. Now they are. Is that a bad thing? Well let’s look at it like this. This is what women in Orgs such as NOW and others wanted. Clinton, that paragon of Women’s rights, gave it to them.

          Some went into combat roles and did well. Or so I hear, since I’m no longer in. Then, a war came along (Iraq). Suddenly I start to hear some of these gals whining that, oh my goodness! I can’t go to Iraq!!! I have a family! I have kids!

          News Flash! If you didn’t want to go to war, then you shouldn’t have joined the Military!!!! After all. What were the odds that you might have to go to a Theatre of War if you were in the Military?

          And besides, we have been at war now for almost 8 years. The longest hitch in the Mil is what? 6 years? If you don’t want to fight couldn’t you have gotten out? There was a woman in Georgia LAST YEAR whining about having to go to Iraq!

          Oh, she wanted to make a career of it, but not if she had to go overseas and fight! HUH? Honey, you didn’t go to work in a freakin’ factory!!!

          I have seen women who I would be terrified to fight hand-to-hand. I know some women who can shoot just as good as I can. I have seen some women who have been courageous in Iraq and other places, and have lost limbs or been seriously injured over there. In my opinion, the above examples give a bad, seriously bad, name to all the others who went without complaint and did their jobs.

          All in all SFC. All this touchy-feely bulldookey the Politicians have done to the Military is screwing it up. Why don’t they leave the Military to the Military. And leave the Screwing up for Washington D.C.!

    • I look forward to your article. This post is very,on target!

  14. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    I like to post a little conspiracy theory most days, just to keep us all amused and make us think a bit.

    Right now, I do not think that the left has all that much interest in actually passing the “Fairness Doctrine”. I think that they want to have the threat of the Fairness Doctrine out there on the table, but not actually use it.

    The left currently needs people like Rush, Hannity, Coulter, and Beck. It is much easier to conquer the American People if we are divided and bickering amongst ourselves. Having people like Rush around as a polarizing figure and constantly pointing him out (saying that he is the de-facto leader of the Republican Party, etc.) is a way of encouraging division amongst the people.

    The one danger that the left faces is that too many people will begin to agree with Rush that government should indeed be smaller and less intrusive and that the left really are Socialists and Communists.

    If too many people start to agree with Rush et. al. then you will see the “Fairness Doctrine” hammer come down with great force. Hopefully by then enough of the American people will have awoken from their stupor and the Fairness Doctrine will come too late and most of us will realize that is it simply an attempt at censorship.

    Now, I am not saying by any means that Rush, Hannity, Coulter and Beck are infallable by any means. They most certainly are fallable. However, they do all stand up for liberty, freedom, personal responsibility, accountability, and a host of other ideas that are really not bad.

    My personal feeling is that the left is riding a double-edged sword here. They need us to be divided so that they can conquer, but they don’t want a majority of people to suddenly believe that they are on the wrong side of the issues. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

    • esomhillgazette says:

      Peter: The one phrase that sticks in my head is Glenn Beck’s,

      “Say what you mean and mean what you say.”

      If more Politickshuns would do this one thing, at LEAST half the problems that we have with them would go away. That is one statement, I don’t care what Party they’re from, that is NEVER done.

      ALL OF THEM, Democrat and Republican, or any Politicians, ARE LIARS!!!

      • Godzilla says:

        Esom and all, would Beck make a good candidate for Pres? Really, he’s about the only show I watch with regularity on Fox, his “Iconvenient Book” was eye opening and really got me much more interested in what was going on within our government. He seems to have common sense solutions, I used to be a blind lib, only believing what the MSM told me, but I’m getting much better now, thanks to all of you!(Does it help or hurt that I’m an old Dead head?) I even like to read Mr Hawkins replies, keeps me from going down the path too blindly! I tend to trust what Beck says, I check into his facts and will even read the lib sites to see what might be getting “left” out from the “right” perspective. I’m blown away by how well read most of the contributors on this site are, it’s a bit intimidating! Thanks to all, and a special thanks to those that have served.

  15. CA Mama says:

    At least most here are not from her home state – unlike yours truly…

    She never ceases to sicken me and most people I know here in So. Calif. Maybe someday she’ll be voted out but who’s to say that her replacement won’t be worse (if that’s possible). I guess I’m just Califonia Dreamin’.

    J

    • I too am in CA, even worse, the SF Bay area…her home turf! The majority of the people here think shes the best thing to happen to america since sliced bread and peanut butter in a jar. I have gotten into several debates with her followers here and I may as well be talking to a flippin’ wall! Yesterday I even overheard 2 people at the store discussing how Glenn Beck made up the story about her being briefed about waterboarding. God help us all.

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

        It is far more convenient for people who support Pelosi and her views to believe that Glen Beck made up the story that she actually had been briefed about waterboarding and had not voiced any objections.

        You see, if she had actually been briefed about waterboarding, it logically follows that she would have been outraged and voiced her disagreement with that practice from the heavens on high to anyone and everyone who would listen. She would have put a stop to this horrible injustice and travesty! She would never have allowed such a thing to continue regardless of the reasoning behind it! Glen Beck just HAD to make that story up! There is NO WAY our beloved Nancy could have known about this and not screamed it from the top of the mountains how outraged she was!

        Uh yeah… gotta go get me some more Kool-Aid.

      • CA Mama says:

        You are a brave woman to engage in such a debate up in that territory 🙂 Hopefully some sanity will return to CA but I don’t think it will be in the forseeable future.

        Take care,

        J

        • Well since Gavin Newsom (mayor of San Fran) announced recently that he is running for Governor or Senator or Savior oor whatever of CA, I’m betting its going to get MUCH worse very soon.

  16. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    We are on quite a few different topics today. This is a reply to a debate that Ray and I are having from above.

    Ray,

    I do not believe that the Government should be in the business of determining who is required to give the Government money and who is qualified to receive money from the Government. I do agree that taxes need to be paid in order to support essential Government functions, such as building and repair of infrastructure, national defence, police and fire protection, education, etc. Police and fire protection and education should be handled on the local and State levels, not the National level.

    Now, if the Government insists that it must have a program to support people who are out of work, I could support that provided that the Government agree not to regulate industry and commerce into the ground, and that the Government agree that a required part of accepting unemployment would be to meet the requirement to participate in education and training while unemployed so that the unemployed person could expand upon their existing skill set and become employable to more potential employers.

    Also, if the Government insists on giving tax money to the poor, I would be more inclined to be in favor of it if the Government required that anyone who was physically and mentally capable of doing an honest day’s work were required to get education and training and become more employable to potential employers. I would also prefer it if the Government would reward people that were on welfare for getting into a stable family situation and limiting the number of children they have, as opposed to rewarding people who choose to remain as single parents and continue to produce offspring because the more kids they have without being married, the more Government Cheese they are allowed to get.

    I would be more supportive of public education if the Government required that the teachers actually teach students the skills that they will require in order to be successful in life and be self-sufficient human beings. Teacher pay should be directly linked to the success or failure of the students that they teach. Teachers should also be allowed to enforce discipline within their classrooms. The limits of what is tolerable behavior for both the students and the teachers must be clearly defined. Failing grades must be allowed. Students have to learn that in life, sometimes you will succeed, and sometimes you will fail, and most of the time success comes from hard work and sometimes you learn the most by failing.

    I could go on and on and on Ray, but the main point is, it is clear that the so-called “social programs” enacted by the Government are not designed to improve the quality of life of the people that are in these programs. It is clear that the goal of these “social programs” is to keep people exactly where they are and encourage them to engage in more of the same behavior that made them a part of the system in the first place.

    I am sure that you feel otherwise about these things, and that is fine. In my personal point of view, if the Government is going to be in the business of bailing anyone out who is having a hard time, whether it be a single mom or a megabank, the Government should be going about it with the goal of getting that person or that megabank to the point where they are profitably functioning on their own and no longer reqire the assistance of the Government.

    Why do private school students have a much higher rate of going to college, graduating from college, and going on to lucrative careers then public school students? You could claim that it is because a certain class of student does not have access to these private schools. Ok if you argue that, then why is the Government and the Public School System adamant about NOT handing out vouchers to families so that the families can choose to send their children to the private schools? Or you could argue that a certain class of people simply does not have the ability to compete in private schools. Why is that? I agree that some people have a better ability to learn than others, but it has been consistently demonstrated that when you challenge a child to learn and to think for themselves (and you make it an interesting challenge), the majority of children will rise to the challenge and actually learn, regardless of their socio-economic background.

    I could write a book on these subjects (seems like I just did :)).

    The point is, there are VERY few functions currently assumed by the Government that could not be performed far more efficiently at far less cost, and at far more benefit to the average human being if they were performed by private institutions, private charities, and other private entities.

    “I am from the Government, and I am here to help” is the biggest line of bulldookey ever foisted upon any human being.

  17. You claim to have civilized discussions here, and you want more liberal/descenting views, but when you post crap like this you lose all credibility.

    You want to investigate Pelosi because she can’t remember the details of a meeting from 6 years ago? And even the CIA has admitted the minutes from the meeting are unclear on exactly what was discussed. But you think the Bush adminstration shouldn’t be investigated for actually doing the torture?

    The funny thing is I agree with you about Pelosi – I’m no fan of her!! But when you go over-the-top with narrow-minded, less-than-half-truth rants like this, no one will EVER take you serious. Except for maybe DHS…

    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

      Todd,

      Open your mind so that the cobwebs can be removed. The CIA is not “vague” on who was at these meetings or what was discussed at the meetings. They have these little things called minutes of the meetings. These are not “vague recollections” as some people seem intent on claiming… these are detailed descriptions of the dates and times of the meetings, the attendees, and the precise subject matter that was discussed.

      To believe that any government agency fails to take detailed minutes of any meeting at all is to fantasize. They have entire staffs of people who are paid to take detailed minutes of any and every meeting, briefing, and probably even potty-break that happens in the White House, on Capitol Hill, or in the Supreme Court.

      Anyone that claims that they really are not sure if Pelosi was there or not and they aren’t really sure what was discussed at the meetings and briefings is straight-out lying, just like Nancy.

      Also Todd, do you find it kind of odd that the Democrats thought that the Patriot Act and the DHS were horrible things when Bush was in office, but now instead of dismantling the DHS and repealing the Patriot Act they seem intent on making both even STRONGER? I wonder why this could be?

      • USWeapon says:

        Yes the fact that they can tell you that there were 40 Congressional briefings and in 18 of those waterboarding was discussed, and here are the names of the 31 people who were at that meeting sure does seem awful vague. I just wish Democrats had nearly the level of skepticism about claims leveled at Republicans as they do about claims leveled at Democrats.

    • USWeapon says:

      Todd,

      Sorry to disappoint. I will say to you the same thing that I say to every other liberal who makes your claim. I DO claim to have civilized discussions here. Are you saying that the discussions on these boards are not civilized? Has anyone called Ray anything nasty for voicing a different opinion? Or instead have people debated their personal beliefs on the issue with some level of respect and dignity?

      “But when you go over-the-top with narrow-minded, less-than-half-truth rants like this, no one will EVER take you serious.” As I said to Ray, here are the facts I presented:

      1. Republicans are bad. Democrats are just as much to blame for every ill as Republicans.
      2. Pelosi is nasty and mean and partisan beyond comparison.
      3. Pelsoi attended intelligence briefings where EIT’s were disclosed.
      4. Pelosi denied knowing anything.
      5. Pelosi’s own Democratic Intelligence Aide called her on her lies.
      6. Karma is catching up to one of Congress’s worst, even if only a little.
      7. I gave examples of several issues where Democrats blame Republicans for what happened. I pointed out the flaw in that claim. I didn’t exonerate any Republicans, I indicted Democrats right along with them.

      Now you explain to me where I went over the top, was narrow-minded (I especially want to hear that one), or presented things that were less than half-truths.

      “You want to investigate Pelosi because she can’t remember the details of a meeting from 6 years ago? And even the CIA has admitted the minutes from the meeting are unclear on exactly what was discussed.”

      This isn’t based on the CIA memos or recollections of the meetings in Congress. Those were just the precursors that gave her the rope to hang herself. It was her personal intelligence aide that came out and said that he told her in 2003. If it is my job to give intelligence to a member of Congress, I think I can remember accurately whether I told her or didn’t tell her. So I don’t care what the CIA says, it isn’t their meeting notes that are in question here. It is the intelligence aide who’s only job was to inform Pelosi. Your ability to poke holes in evidence that implicates Pelosi is quite telling. If only Democrats had that same skepticism about things implicating Republicans, we might get somewhere.

      ” But you think the Bush adminstration shouldn’t be investigated for actually doing the torture?”

      Where on earth did you hear me say that? I have never once said they should not be investigated. I have been quite clear here again and again that investigations should go forward and punishment should be doled out. My problem is not that folks like you think Republicans should be punished. It is with the fact that folks like you think ONLY Republicans should be punished. You want Bush in prison but want to give Nancy a pass because “recollections are unclear.” Do you really believe that she DIDN’T know about this?

      The reason that liberals are refusing to engage in debate here is because they do not want to debate on merit of argument. They want to believe they are right. I applaud Ray for challenging us, because we should be challenged. And so should the liberal positions. I offer a site where no one will attack you personally or resort to nasty name calling. That doesn’t mean we will all say “OK, maybe all Republicans should be in jail. Thanks for setting us straight you all-knowing left leaning folks. We sure do appreciate you sharing your keen intellect with us.” If my blunt words about the fallacies that are being perpetrated by the left leaders is too painful for liberals to take, it is no wonder this country is becoming a soft nation of pansies. At least the Republicans can take my shots without crying that I am too mean so they can’t debate with me. And they present facts to dispute my arguments rather than just claiming I am making all this shit up. PROVE ME WRONG IF I AM WRONG. I beg for it every day. I am a masochist who puts his own opinions out there every night so that people can tell me how screwed up I am. BlackFlag seems to have no problem challenging me with facts. Ray seems willing, although he hasn’t used a lot of fact based arguing yet.

      I don’t mean to sound angry. I am not. But I do tire of liberals telling me their feelings are hurt so they are taking their ball and going home. “I refuse to argue with you because you hold an opinion that is different than mine.” WTF?

      • Narrow-minded? How about the first paragraph? Or the second? Or third?
        Less-than-half-truths? Take your pick on the bullet-points.

        You start with “both Dems and Reps are bad” but then you go on blame the weak-minded liberals who believe everything the Dems say…
        Do you think the opposite is true?

        The fact that you typed up a page and a half to respond find of makes my point…

        Here’s a thought – reread this entire post and comments, but change “Nancy Pelosi” to “Sarah Palin”. A lot of liberals feel that way about Sarah Palin.

        How would you feel about the people contributing to that discussion? Left-wing, liberal idiots? I would!!!!

        That’s how you sound here…

        • USWeapon says:

          “You start with “both Dems and Reps are bad” but then you go on blame the weak-minded liberals who believe everything the Dems say…
          Do you think the opposite is true?”

          As a matter of fact I do.

          And as I said, easy for libs to jump out there and say “lies and half-truths”, yet none are willing to show me what I said that was a lie or a half truth. I gave you a very easy list of 7 points. Ray found that he agreed with 5 of 7 and I presented my case to him on the other 2. Since he agreed on those 5, is he a conservative hack too?

          Odd that you found my willingness to devote 15 minutes of typing to discussing the matter from my point of view to be “telling” in some way. What point exactly does it make? That I am willing to discuss and defend my positions? That you failed to take my 7 points and debate them really does make my point.

          As for Sarah Palin… She isn’t Speaker of the House. And she hasn’t been caught preaching that Democrats should be prosecuted for what she herself was doing. I don’t care what anyone thinks of Palin anyway. She lost. The media and weak minded liberals had their way with her. Of course most of what they used against her was an outright lie, but effective with the 140 character crowd. At least the claims I level against Pelosi have merit. What exactly was wrong with Palin, again? The fact that she was a christian, a gun owner, or … a Republican

          • My point is – what does this negative topic contribute to the discussions? You all hate Nancy Pelosi. Wow – there’s a shocker. All you’re doing is stoking the rage and isolating yourselves even more. You talk about educating people to see the truth – do you really think this qualifies as education??

            The very way you word your bullet points shows a bias right from the start. See below for each one.

            * Financial Crisis caused by Bush deregulation – Actually Bush passed more regulation on industry than any other President in history. Most of the legislation that caused the crisis came from Clinton years.

            Community Reinvestment Act – originally passed in 1977. Legislation and Regulatory changes were made during the Clinton and Bush administrations. CRA had largely become irrelevant by 2002 as mortgage back securities, derivatives, credit default obligations, and credit default swaps made sound lending practices unnecessary for banks to make a profit, and the Bush adminstration, SEC, and Fed reduced or didn’t enforce regulations.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
            http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/community_reinv.html

            * Housing Crisis caused by Bush pushing for sup-prime lending – Come on kids, when is the last time the Republicans EVER pushed to make a move like this. Clinton administration had every bit as much to do with this as Bush.

            See above – same issue.

            * The Republicans took us to an illegal war in Iraq – Immoral perhaps, but illegal? Absolutely not. Approved by Congress and voted for by all your favorite Democrats and Republicans. And don’t give me that false pretenses bullshit. You are Congress, do some fracking research before you vote. You voted American opinion polls that said “go” and when America changed its mind, you pretended you were “tricked”

            Illegal/immoral – like Ray said you’re splitting hairs. The two main sources of information to justify the war both turned out to be lying, but the Bush administration touted their stories to the US and UN:
            Ibn al Sheikh al-Libi – The Washington Post called him a one-time “high-value source for the CIA.” Under pressure in an Egyptian jail, he told of training al-Qaida militants in Iraq for chemical and biological warfare.

            Ahmad Chalabi, the Pentagon’s favorite Iraqi exile, whose information about Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction turned out to be inventions.
            http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104104540

            * The Patriot Act was all Bush/Cheney – Ahem… Approved by Congress and voted for by all your favorite Democrats and Republicans. You voted American opinion polls that said “yes” and when America changed its mind, you pretended you were “tricked”

            You can’t be serious. This was shoved down everyone’s throat by the Republicans. And it wasn’t voted for by everyone’s favorite Democrat!!

            * Republicans are in the Pocket of Big Business – Dumbest thing I have ever heard. Go check and see who the big corporations gave their contributions to. Pretty equal when you look at it. In fact, in 2008, Democrats got more money from big business than Republicans.

            Historically, Republicans have been in the pocket of big business. The Democrats get plenty of Big Money, but not so much from business. There’s a lot more to this issue than just 2008 campaign contributions, and the numbers can be sliced and diced to support just about anything you want.

            * The Republican Animals Tortured those poor Detainees and we Democrats are Going to Fight for Them – Democrats were in on it just as much as Republicans. And therein is the point of this article.

            First of all, the way you worded this is completely bias. And whether Pelosi was briefed on the program or not, that doesn’t mean she approved or helped create the program. And since the briefings are classified, all they can do is object to the administration, they can’t go public with the information.
            http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104075915

            • USWeapon says:

              Congratulations Todd… You will get your answer in the form of tonight’s post.

              One thing I won’t be addressing is the fact that you made the statement “There’s a lot more to this issue than just 2008 campaign contributions, and the numbers can be sliced and diced to support just about anything you want.” Nice move. Good Setup. A natural tactic from the politicians in Washington. You set the premise up front that way so that when someone comes back at you with facts showing you are wrong, you get to say “as I said, numbers can be twisted any way to support your position”. Works in Washington and in the media to silence the stupid masses, won’t work on this site.

        • Refresh my memory Todd. What House Intelligence Committee is Sarah Palin on?

          Hell, what Any committee is she on?

          Oh and BTW. MSNBC, the most liberal news agency out there, reports that Nancy Pelosi’s personal intelligence aide told her. Not Fox, Not CNN.

          It’s just as USW says. When Republicans have any power to make any changes, then you’ll hear not only him, but a whole lot more of us screaming foul. It’s not the Democrats or Republicans alone. It’s not Obama alone. It’s the whole damn lying ass Government! There isn’t a damn one worth doodly squat!

          • My point about Sarah Palin is that if you read a liberal blog that did nothing that disparaged Sarah Palin, you would think they’re a bunch of idiots. This type of article puts you in that same category.

            I believe it’s the CIA’s job to brief members of congress, not their aids. Why wasn’t Pelosi included in the briefing the aid got?

            • USWeapon says:

              Well there you go Todd. So quick to judge me yet obviously not well versed on the specifics of the situation. Pelosi was no longer on the Committee that received the briefing. She had been replaced by Harmon. Pelosi’s aide went to Harmon for details at Pelosi’s request. That is how Congress works.

            • SFC Dick says:

              Hey but

              At least Todd is marking more “argument” now.

              Nice work Todd,state a point, make an argument and debate the merit.

              you will find in that arena and context there is no personal attack needed , none allowed here anyway, but argue a point.

              you will be welcomed in debate and respected by people of many differing views but hold civil debate in high regard.

            • dealemslim says:

              she was.

            • dealemslim says:

              she was.

    • Alan F. says:

      You have to be joking. She went from a total denial on CNN, MSNBC and every other bastion of Obamaland to something amazingly and absolutely different. Are you busy redefining “sex” once again Mr Clinton?

  18. Black Flag says:

    Do I have a story about “government help” – but that’s another day.

    A post about a duplicitous, lying politician…. as if there exists any other kind….

    So, off topic….

    http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?s=8700df59a40ee400dff321f4bed16925&t=7110

    The iTulip guys brought us the cool video of the relative ‘out of this world’ financial crisis (I’ve posted that a couple of times)

    Now, they’ve done a considerable job on graphing the Wiemar Republic’s hyperinflation.

    Why is this important? It is the closest historical reference we have to what might happen here – and with knowledge, we can guard and reasonably prepare ourselves.

    -Food prices in Berlin were higher in pounds sterling than food prices in London. The reason? The contraction of the division of labor. Men lost their jobs. They also hoarded food, refusing to sell, even for hard currency. This made food scarcer in Berlin than if London.

    If hyperinflation comes, even holders of gold will lose. Gold will be good for buying dollars and paying off mortgages. But it will be difficult to buy food, even with gold.

    The crucial commodity was food. If you were a farmer, you won, big-time. You paid off your farm debt by selling one egg in 1923.

    Check this graph and look at the percentage of a family’s income spent on food. Look especially at the last three months. This meant a family had little left over to pay anything else.

    – Hyperinflation came late, and it came fast. Inflation was bad, 1918-21. It became hyperinflation only in 1921, and astronomical only for one year. Most people didn’t have time to prepare.

    The most profitable thing an urban person could have done was to plant a garden and store food. Remember, not everyone was urban. If you were in the country, you were not wiped out.

    Remember in America, we are almost exclusively urban, not rural.

    – Unemployment soared in the final year. If you lost your job, it was a catastrophe. The post-1923 recession left people unemployed, which is not shown on the chart.

    – This last one I’d like to highlight shows the power – and futility – of gold. As inflation rampaged, the cost of living in terms of gold went down – until hyperinflation – where all commodities (especially food) skyrocketed.

    As I pointed out above, in hyperinflation, everyone is hoarding everything and unwilling to sell, even for gold.

    Another thing to note: hyperinflation cannot last. If it does, it will destroy that society completely – it nearly did Germany, and that was with hyperinflation that only lasted 4 months.

    The bankers and government are children playing with fire.

    If they push the US$ into hyperinflation, they are not merely risking America – but most of the Western global economy. There may be very little left from which to rebuild Western society.

    Ready to learn Mandarin?

  19. Kristian says:

    Sorry Ray, not joking. Dead serious as a matter of fact. He has scared me from the minute I first saw him. I knew that he was going to run for President and after watching McCain for a while, I knew that Obama would win. Now, I know that a statement like that probably makes me sound crazy, and that’s fine, I can understand why it would. But, I also know what my instincts are telling me. If I’ve learned anything in my short forty years it’s to trust my instincts and mine have been screaming since the first time his name was mentioned as a candidate. You can poo poo me all you want and that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion but by the same token, so am I. I could care less about the rest of the politicians, they scare me but not as much as he does. I may be wrong, but I doubt it and if I am I will be the first one to say I was.

    • The anti-christ – really? Now there’s QUALITY information!!

      So I should just believe your instincts?

      If your instincts are so good, have you gone to the horse track or Las Vegas lately and won a few million??

      • Kristian says:

        Todd, snipe at me if you must but tell me, have you not thought the same thing about Bush over the years?

        • Kristian, it’s the God damned hero worship thing. This can be easily confused with the AntiChrist thing. What you and I are seeing are people who have checked their brains on entry and just going along in a happy daze for the ride.

          Being an old guy I will admit to having beeen entranced at the age of 13 by JFK. To this day, just watching his press conferences can stir those old emotions. The man was a master communicator, was quick with a quip and had a self depricating sense of humor. After his assasination when I was sixteen, I, like the rest of the country, was in a state of shock. Unlike most though, whenever something earth shaking happens I try to learn more about the subject. I spent a couple years reading everything I could about JFK and grew to know his dark side and grew to reject him. When his brothers came on the scene and became as popular as the Beatles, I did not see them as a continuation of Camelot. I immediately studied their motives and positions, and rejected them as well.

          Their political positions were almost 180 degrees opposite their late brothers. Bobby in particular, coming out early and loudly against the very war his brother started was something. I remember trying to convince friends to think about this and being rebuffed by their hero worship. Bobby K. could do no wrong. His history of illegal wiretaps, domestic spying, questionable prosecutions and questionable morality disqualified him from any office. As my dad said, he was becoming the most dangerous man in America. And yet, had he not died, he would have most likely beat Nixon and become president.

          So now, we have another “hero”. Looks good, sounds good, stands for absolutely nothing except power, pure raw power. We fault the greed of CEO’s but ignore the greed of the power mad and don’t think it is the same thing.

          Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here but it has been reported that the White House has threatened bankers and others with having the forces of the government (including the IRS) pointed at them if they did not go along with the (Chrysler) plan. Was not this one of the articles of impeachment to be used against Richard Nixon because of his enemies list?

          • Well said sir. I read a quote from rock star, Jon Bon Jovi on Al Gore that impressed me. He said Gore was the smartest human being he had ever been around and that he was in awe of him, and that was what he looked for in a candidate. Great answer.
            I totally dis-agree with it, but still great answer.

            I want a candidate who has VALUES I can relate to. If we have that in common, we will see issues from a similar viewpoint.

          • I don’t know about Nixon (before my time), but yeah, that’s what was reported about the Chrysler plan.

            They did the same thing with audits on banks that didn’t want the TARP money. Some had no problems and didn’t need the money. The Govt forved them to take the loans under threat of long term audits, which no banks in their right mind wants.

        • I used to be a republican and I voted for Bush in 2000. The republican’s actions during Bush’s first term changed my feelings. Not a gut instinct.

      • Todd,

        She did not ask you to believe as she does, she merely stated her opinion, which should be respected. You have the right to one also. So, do you have one?

        As for me, I lost track of when Obama broke his first promise.
        Will you tell me the Economic Stimulus Act was “TRANSPARENT” AND “BI-PARTISAN”?

        Today they announced they were not going to release photo’s of prisoner abuse because it might endanger our soldiers.
        Releasing the interrogation memo’s has already endangered them, and for what? What was gained by their release? The media had a story to attack Bush on, and distract America from health care, etc.. Did we nationalize any other fortune 500 company today?

        • And there we have the motive in mentioning the damn photos to start with. Distract the public while they slip something else past.

        • So if I tell you my instincts are that Obama is the second coming of Christ and the savior of the world you’ll respect that opinion?

          As for the photos, the announcement of their existence has already caused the damage. I feel they should be released. Not releasing them now gives our enemies two points – the photo’s themselves and the ‘cover-up’.

          • USWeapon says:

            Sure I will respect your opinion. I will think you are wrong, just as I think she is wrong. I don’t think he is the anti-christ, just misguided and real good at covering it up.

          • Alan F. says:

            Why is it these things are always popping up when Obama is catching heat from the public? The timeline for all these “No, look over here, OVER HERE!” coincide exactly with the next great big slice of “hope and change” failing to descend from the sky carried by trumpeting angels but instead managing nothing more than a juicy PLOP! USW states the subject matter being Nancy “dearest” Pelosi herself yet the universal dodge “Bush” comes back up again?

      • dealemslim says:

        nobody told you to just believe their instincts. where do you get this idea that everyone here “not” in your opinion demands that you believe only them? maybe listening to libs and dems so many times without thinking for yourself has screwed up your skull so badly that personal thought has no origin. oh yeah, don’t forget to “blame bush” the dem and lib’s mantra

    • Kristian. He ain’t the Anti-Christ. My Dad is a Baptist Preacher and he told me that he wasn’t. I’ll talk to him and get back to you later as to why he’s not. But since I wondered about it too for a bit, I’m not laughing or poking fun. After all, it’s just your opinion. No reason for anyone to snipe.

    • Kristian,

      I share your unease. I had the same reaction the first time I saw Him in action. I’ve been really worried about the situation. and then yesterday, I read at American Thinker: Barack Obama the quinteseential Liberal Facist. http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html

    • Kristian says:

      I guess the thing that bothers me about this administration and his lies in particular is that his whole campaign was run on the promise of transparency. The longer he is in office the more he scares me because all of this is coming at us so quickly who the hell can keep up. As I said in my earlier post I could be wrong. Personally, given what the Anti-Christ comes before, I really hope that I am wrong. I’m not ready for Tribulation, are you?

  20. Too all;

    I just started reading USW’s blog last week and boy what a “hoot”. It gives me great joy and pride knowing that there are sane and spirited folks still out there thinking; and questioning. I even like Ray, although I ain’t quite got him figgered out yet.

    A point I would like to make relative to the whole Pelosi, Barry (Obama), current congress and other so called appointed leaders setting in office today.

    We (conservatives) are not dealing with just liberal’s who have different opinions. We are dealing with a team of intelligent, driven, self-rightous political masterminds bent on changing this great country into what they believe it should be.

    They not only don’t agree with how we think, they could care less; and they are doing whatever whenever they need too in order to silence us.

    This is not a battle where opossing beliefs set down and hack out a comprimise, it is a hostile take-over. Barry and his cronies are not interested in what conservatives think or say and they are working to shut us up.

    I wrote USW my thoughts on what is going on, so maybe he will put it out there. But understand this, Barry and his team are driving for the goal line and if he scores we will soon all be calling each other comrades. They are bent on turning this country away from Capitalisum and straight into Fascisum. They want and are working for control, and make no mistake about it they are smart calculated and have a working plan.

    Be afraid, be very afraid.

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Dear Common Man,

      First, Welcome!

      Second, I am very scared.

      Third, “Right On”

      Kind Regards,
      RS

    • Too all;

      They have a plan and they are executing it very well. I live in Michigan and my business life has revolved around the truck and car industry. I have watched it go up and down and have learned that so goes the car industry so goes the American economy. The first sign things are going to start going to shit is the downturn in big truck sales, I’m talking semi’s and tractor trailers. Next is the passenger cars,,,and if that keeps falling then every other domino starts to tumble. GM, Chrysler and Ford have been hurting for several years, ever since gas prices started climbing.

      You economics majors out there can argue this with me, but take a look at the trends in history before you question my reasoning. In the last several downturns it was always preceeded by declining car sales.

      So why is this important? This is just a teaser: If you want to gain a strong foothold on the economy, which you need to do to seise control, you strike where it is weakest; the lenders, and the only big manufacturing arena left standing.

      • An excellent thread of thought. Everybody goes on about the sub primes tanking the economy but I wonder if the $ 4.00 gallon of gas really didn’t either kick it off or apply the grease to start the slide.

        We had here in the NY area a huge build up of homes in the exurbs ( 75 to 130 miles from NYC). The houses were relatively cheap, came with land and were marketed to the lower middle class in the City and environs who were priced out of the close in market. They leapt at the opportunity to become homeowners.

        Last year, when gas tripled, they were stuck with their SUV’s )which they actually needed for the snow in the Pocono area). These monsters ate up over $ 200 per week in gas. In a month that’s almost $ 1,000. So, when things got really hairy, they were faced with the choice of buying gas to get to work and keep their job or paying the mortgage. I know of several cases where this actually became the choice. Most stayed with the job.

        I have heard that the same thing went on in the Pacific Northwest, California, New England and other places.

        I guess the whole damn economy was a pyramid scheme. That’s where the pyramid is standing on its point, pull out one block and the whole thing collapses.

    • Common Man,

      Welcome, look forward to your thoughts. I have a slightly different view I posted as guest writer a few days ago. Hope you will share your insights.

      • USWeapon says:

        Commom Man will be the guest commentary this Friday night as a matter of fact.

  21. I have a slightly different take on Nancy P. has anyone considered that the woman may be suffering from Premature Alzheimers? No joke. Her performance at Obama’s State of the Union with the up and down, up and down was more than hilarious. Yesterday she mis spoke again publically when she praised the persident for more health care reform in 100 days than since Medicare came along in the 1950’s. Note that. She gave Eisenhower credit for LBJ’s program. And, it’s the eyes. Look at her eyes. There is a big VACANCY sign flashing there.

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Hi SK…

      No, I’ve never considered that.

      When I look at her eyes, I see a “Blaze of Fanatacism”. I guess I could be miscontrueing that…Next time, I’ll look closely with this perspective in mind.

      Regards,
      RS

      • When I look in her Eyes, I see the blank look of no freakin’ brain behind them! 😀

        Sorry, I just couldn’t resist!

      • I wonder what happens when you over botox….don’t you think that could eventually seep into the brain? I think Biden might be afflicted with this disease as well. It would explain some things……

    • I think her performance today (Thursday) proves the point. It’s time for a brain scan. Is senility grounds for impeachment or removal from office?

  22. Richmond Spitfire says:

    Hi all,

    What is up with these neophyte clowns in the District of Corruption?

    Yesterday, they were all about releasing photos (similiar to the Abu Garaib photos) depicting military personnel abusing Iraq/Afghan prisoners.

    Now today, they’ve done an about-face are say that they aren’t.

    This is another example of the inexperience of this Administration. They speak/act/react without any analysis!

    Regards,
    RS

    • My thought is they had an “OH Spit” moment. If we go after Bush/Cheney for torture, they (and read SFC on #13)are taking Pelosi and the rest of them down with them.

      • Richmond Spitfire says:

        LoI…

        Did you see the video of Gibbs actually taking the cell phone away from a Press Corp member today during a briefing – because it rang? Then another cell phone rang and he attempted to take that phone away from that reporter. I mean he like literally spent like 30-45 seconds doing this and smirking the whole time. Again, the administration is really embarrassingly inexperienced.

        RS

        • I did but actually liked that. I don’t like Obama or Gibbs, but if you go to a press conference for the Presidents press secretary, you turn off your phone. Saw video of how the reporters all rise for “the One” when he walks in, but refused to do so for Bush. The office deserves respect, grit your teeth, bite your tongue, stiff upper lip, get me the hell out of here and a beer.

          • Richmond Spitfire says:

            Oh, I agree, there shouldn’t be any interruptions (i.e. phones should be off or on vibrate). My point is that #1: That policy should be communicated (I’m sure it was) and #2: A “look” should have been directed to the offender or quick “reminder” of the policy should have sufficed.

            • Snatching cell phones away is what the Teacher or Self Righteous Principle does to the bad little kids at school.

              The action reflects the attitude. Pure and simple.

              You aint seen nothin yet!!

              R.S. don’t forget Far Out or Far F…ing Out, go hand in hand with Right On!!!!

              Hope all is cuddly in Richmond this PM
              JAC

    • You just hit on something brilliant by accident. Bush had his neo-cons. Obama has his neo-clowns. I love it.

  23. Amazed1 says:

    Just knowing what I know about how intel works you can bet your rear the CIA, FBI, Military, and lawyers have their rear covered on this one. You can bet there will be just as many Dems bite the dust on this as anyone. All the Intel people are very very good at CYOA.
    And for all the people on this site who say well to know about is ok and to do it is not….doesn’t understand the law very good. I you know a crime is taking place or is about to take place and do nothing or even condon it you are as guilty as the perp.
    The American people do not need to be fooled…we can do only one of two things. Sit back, shut our mouths and hope it goes away or we can clean congress of all who had knowledge before or afterward. Ladies and Gentlemen the later is gonna leave us with a very small number of Congress. If any of us are stupid enough to believe that from 2002 until the end of 2008 that the largest part of the memebers of COngress had no idea what was going on then the we are just plain blind and ignorant.
    This is just a ploy to throw out smoke screens, divide the country and cause hate and discontent. How long are Americans gonna wear the handed out rose color glasses? How long before people read the Constitution, Federal Papers and the Declaration? How long before we look at how far away we are from the Republic our forefathers fought and died for. How long will we sleep?

  24. Amazed1 says:

    Now fellow bloggers…..you will know why I am called Amazed1.
    It totally AMAZES me that anyone can believe that it is ok to kill babies but not ok to torture. The reasoning that follows that path….ok to take the life of an unborn baby, but not ok to torture (but not kill) a fully grown person….just seems to completely over whelm me. Somebody needs to explain that to me because it just does not seem to be reasonable. If all the people that are screaming to punish for the torture are against abortion then how do we have legal abortion? Is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? or someone taking the higher moral ground or what?
    Someone help me here….it is ok to take the life of a baby, but not ok to slap a grown person. Have I got this right?????

    • Amazed, Your comments provoke thought to me. First, I’m not for or opposed to abortion, mainly because it’s not something I’ve had to ever deal with. I won’t condone abortion unless there are unusual circumstances. With that said, torture, as we speak of it today (which is lame in terms of the past) is sometimes warranted. If my daughter was kidnapped, and I had someone with knowledge of her whereabouts in my control, I would do far worse to that person than anything thats discussed recently. Waterboarding, in this case would be kind.

      Please don’t equate abortion to what techniques are used to get information that we are reading about, as they are not related in any form. What we are now discussing as “torture”, are far from the reality truth. I can give you much better examples of torture than anything our whimp government is whining about today.

      Peace!

      G!

      • Amazed1 says:

        I understand your position….and I understand the feelings on torture…..my equating abortion to torture is the frame of mind. People say poor pitiful combatants we mistreated them….and some of these same people think it is ok for abortion. I could understand if they said “I am for torture and abortion” or not abortion and for torture because one takes a life and one does not But to say I am for taking a life but not torture….makes no rational sense to me. I just can not make any sense to that rational….is it just me? What I see is people saying incarcerating a person is torture, and it is mean and cruel and we as Americans should hold ourselves to higher standards, but some of those same people say it is alright to take a baby and I just cannot seem to follow that reasoning.
        I to could probably be brought to the level of torture if I thought I had another life (a son or daughter or loved one) to gain. But to take a life would be a hard thing for me unless is was for protection. So I have hard time following a person who say abortion is ok but torture is not ok. Does that make sense?

        • Amazed 1:

          You know the answer to your question but you won’t accept it. Per your own words “makes no rational sense to me” you have reached a conclusion based on your moral and ethical values. Others have differing moral and ethical values, and thus have reached another conclusion. There in lies the fundamental difference between the two sides that can not be reconciled. For either side to impose upon the other violates the other’s morality.

          That is also why this issue can not be resolved in our current cultural situation. The sides are essentially split and niether will ever accept the other’s view point.

          JAC

          • Amazed1 says:

            No JAC I am looking at their moral standard and I am not comparing it to mine but to their own. Each person sets their own moral standard….if they say I will not steal they probably would say no it is not ok to steal 5.00 but if you steal a pencil that is ok. They set the top of their scale and decide where on that scale they may break that moral. The top being where they draw the line. Now if the top of their scale is inflicting no tourture on another then how do they justify going over that scale they set to justify murder? Each person sets their top and their bottom. I do not question where they set their moral scale…….what Amazes me is to watch a rational human set their own scale on infliction of harm to others with a bar they allow to go over on one end of the spectrum but not the other. Thus, the it is ok to take the life of an unarmed child but not to slap an adult…..basically they have set their scale upside down…..the top being inflict no physical pain and the bottom being ok to take a life.
            I don’t have to use my standards….I allow each one to set their own and then watch if they are truly upholding the bar they set.
            Thus the question how does a person justify that scale? I can not rationally make any sense of their scale. It defies logic.

    • Alan F. says:

      The deal here is that the notion of torture has whittled away at until its current incarnation “being made uncomfortable” ends up being all that’s left(pun intended). As it stands now what is done to skateboard kids not listening to the authorities over where they can indeed skateboard can’t be done to a captured individual bent on killing Americans by what ever means necessary. I’m guessing if they start handing these folks skateboards on sidewalks it will then be OK as there has been no vehement outcry of absolute outrage from the left on tasering under these conditions?

      Oh and I do hit multiple news sources daily as other themselves like to make note of. I do online news CBC, BBC, WSJ, Wired, The Register, Betanews, Medscape and as often as others themselves watch the idiot box. Way back when I crawled the Usenet quitting as it became infested with morons. When something obviously vague or overly optimistic shows itself I do further research.

  25. JAC,

    Feel free to rant. That’s how we learn things.

    I gotta tell you that there was no bigger supporter than me for Donny R when he first arrived on the scene. For years I wanted to see someone lay into the press. Rummy did it for me. The big but was having the three sons in the Military. They became increasingly unhappy with him. They disliked what he did to Shinseki, disliked how he had to pass over 42 generals to find a yes man and bring him out of retirement and disliked his plans to streamline the military..

    The dumb set up and I know it was a set up question about the up armor did it for me. I fancy myself a bit of a military historian and wonder why three years into the war on terror, we can’t up armor Humvees but in the second year of WW 2 could produce 17,000 Shermans? That with a much smaller population and greatly competing demands. After all, this time we didn’t need B-17’s, 24’s, 26’s, 25’s, P-38’s, P-51’s, P-47’s Corsairs, Hellcats, Essex Class carriers, Iowa class battleships, Deuce and a halfs, Duck’s, 155 Howitzers, and everything else we produced back in the day. Are you getting my drift here?

    If Rummy hadn’t been canned, we would probably never had the surge. He kept insisting that everything was just fine and dandy. Bush backing him to the hilt cost the Repubs the congress in ’06. Then the Pres dumps him!. Four weeks earlier and the whole election may have been different. One of my favorite senators went down because of him (Santorum PA).

    This was war on the cheap. Had an uncle who saw tons of combat with the 26th Div. in WW 2. Like the 101, he was in combat less than a year. We have this stressed out military of ours sending kids that I know back for the fourth one year tour. Sure, we bring em home then we reflag them to a new unit and send em all back. So the X brigade of the Y division is home rebuilding for two years but little Johnny Jones is on his fourth tour. maybe we couldn’t get the draft up and running again nor should we probably even try but cutting people in the early ’90’s which is what Bush 1 started, Clinton continued and Bush 2 intended to do was insane.

    I joke (only half) when I say I knew we were in trouble when I didn’t see Bugs Bunny singing “Buy a Bond Today”. Discouraging enlistments was another brilliant winning move. Misusing college educated, sometimes even folks with Masters degrees by enlisting them as helicopter refueling techs was another piece of routine insanity.

    I despise the cut and run folks, but wrong policy is wrong policy no matter who says it. We should always remember what Dr. Goebbels said, “The only thing more dangerous than believing the enemies propaganda is believing your own!”

    I always said about Viet Nam, right war, right time, right place, wrong way. I never thought I would have to say those words again but Iraq brought them out of retirement for me. Hopefully the damage has been undone.

    My last point, something I just remembered, were two History Channel shows within the past few years. One was how the US military recruited art experts in special units in WW 2 to track down and safeguard works of art looted by the Nazis. The second was how the US Army, in anticipation of the war on the continent gathered up German born soldiers with language ability and created special units to interrogate German POW’s. In retrospect, don’t you think it would have been nice if somebody in the Rummy Pentagon had popped open a History book on WW 2?

    Weather great in Brooklyn today. Clear, Sunny and 70. The Narrows looked beautiful.

    • SFC Dick says:

      “I always said about Viet Nam, right war, right time, right place, wrong way. I never thought I would have to say those words again but Iraq brought them out of retirement for me”

      you might wanna add Afghanistan.

      I had my Rummy moment, I was hem hawing about getting back in, but to tell ya the truth, I liked sitting at Freedom Ridge drinking beer and minding my own Godamned bussines.

      I’d put in 20, chased dudes around central America, I had the full ride, I was cool with that.

      Then ya see dude afte dude on TV talking about ops tempo and not seeing his new born etc.

      One night they followed one of those storie with Rummy saying

      “we have enough soldiers, nothing is wrong, you go to war with the army you have ( uh.. don’t that kinda mean or imply you keep the whole
      army you have in the fight till it’s done?) everything is fine”

      I swear to God, I felt like I was a tire that had just prung a leak, delfating i thought to myself “FFFFUUUuuuuccckkkkk…”

      I knew I was going to go down and get back in the next day.

      When Rummy said those things I knew then that the complete oposite was true. We don’t have enough troops. Everything is not fine.

      I’ve got two major problems, a stupid switch and sense of duty, neither moderated.

      the stupid switch is automatically activated, I have no control over that, It kicked in alot when I got into off road motor cycles when I got out of service. It kicks in alot when I’m on the field of battle.

      yesterday we patrolled a village, I’m point. Always.
      I reach the back of the ville and see tree lined canals and a tree lined river/creek out about 200 meters, across open rice paddies ( yeh, WTF, I’m fighting in rice paddies). I think, “crap, the bad guys could run a brigade down that riverbed and we’d never see them. That looks like a bad area. I see heads popping up way out there in that far tree line. Hmm….that place is bad” so I get on the radio

      “6, this is 7, screw going back the otherside of the qallat, lets go back to that riverbed”

      “7 this is 6, negative, chief wants to go back through the qallat”

      I turn, the 6 is about 75M behind me, I spread out my arms in the universal WTF and shake my head, I get back on the radio.

      “if there’s bad guys around here right now, they’ll probably in that river bed, lets walk back there and plop down right in the middle of that shit!”

      “7, this is 6, roger that”

      I start to head towards the open rice paddy and my host national counterpart realizes what’s about to happen, he laways walks point with me, he trots back to one of his troops, gives the troop the AK he’d been carrying and grabs that troops RPG. I wait, he trots back up and we just give each other a look. “yup”

      There was no way to go, except right out in the open across about 150+ M of open rice paddy to get back to the tree line. I see shadows running back and forth and the whole thing keeps screaming “vietnam ambush’ to me, but my stupid switch had activated and I was just along for the ride.

      funny though, 6 comes back on comms when I’d gotten not further than about 10M out in that and said “be advised, chief just said bad guys use that river bed to run supplies in and out of O-E”

      yeh, DUH, that’s why the chief wanted to head back into the Qallat.

      The other is sense of duty. Man, there has got to come a time when I can reason withmyslef that there are others out there, most capable. I do not have to involve myself in every tough fight just because I believe in the cause.

      • Thanks, SFC. I was also probably too tired yesterday to do my best anti-Rummy argument. He is like a clone of Robert (The Strange) McNamara. A friggen one size fits all bean counter.

        • SFC Dick says:

          McNamara…that piece of human waste, he has blood of thousandson on his hands, he and all those “wonder boys” christ.hen he has the unmitigated gall to come out with the most self sevring piece of excriment ( see, I know how to express foul bodily functions politically correctly) that diminishes, excrimments all over those brave men who fought and died! No apology, just a “hey, what could I do, ya know…”

          planing air targets, manning combat wings, controlling missions down to the FLIGHT PATH! from the basement fo the white house.

          That sir is war crmes.

  26. US Weapons,

    A few days or a week ago someone asked something like “where is this all leading too?” You said “trust me, I have a plan.”

    You talk about the ‘liberal sheep’ following Obama…

    Why don’t you share your plan? Then the conversations on all these topics can reference the plan, and maybe help shape it and expand it. Or do you need to set everyone up and lead them to the conclusion you’ve already reached and the plan you’ve already developed?

    What is your plan?
    And if you don’t want to lay it out now, why not?

    • Alan F. says:

      Here’s a start. Lose the rose colored glasses while regarding those who have already done what you wish done. LEARN from their mistakes rather than ignoring them no matter the pain to elements within your party.

      The Canadian banking system came out of this doing very well. In fact we pulled back in late`07-early`08 from everything we had tied directly to American corporations (funneling profits from Canada to subsidize failing phosphate mines in Florida actually occurs above board here), left that in money markets and sat on things. We then rolled over 500K into bank stocks here on their lows knowing full well “solvent drag” brought them down and not deficiencies in their structure and regulation. While our other Canadian holding are on the mend already, we’ll at least double over the next 2 years and in one instance a triple looks likely in 3 or 4. Pass the maple syrup.

      We’re taxed to the wall here for our universal health care and indeed do realize the shortcomings of our system but won’t give it up for hell nor high water. We’re willing to do without so others won’t have to. Its not an “everyone deserves” thing its a Canadian thing. We also indeed realize the need for making a private second tier sub-system available to those flush enough to pay the extra be that in an enhanced insurance or merely a direct payment with our tax system picking up the base cost. There are those on the far left pitching this as leading to sub-standard health care for “the poor” while those who want the choice themselves argue that current regulation and active enforcement will prevent degradation. Yes, our left criticizes universal health care while enjoying an express lane of their very own.

      Strict and enforced welfare practices. We realized a long time ago that an easy welfare system begets generational users of such. In many instances upgrading through schooling or trades is required for access to welfare’s bounty. The free ride has a price. Better yourself and then we’ll see if the new you settles for “farewell” or heads for better grounds. The system will even locate work and demand you make the effort now or be cut off period. Choose hunger for your child over the hassle of actually working for a living and there’s grounds for taking them away from you(uber rare but its been done). Sure its black and white but once you start making excuses for demographic A and B it ends up extending all the way back to X, Y & Z. Disability here is another matter entirely.

      There are a host of other instances where your current president’s heading our way. Admit to it and make a better version if that’s what you are going to be doing as ours is certainly in need of some American styled freedom. Don’t even pay lip service to “bi-partisan” when that’s not in the cards. Don’t make claims on science that requires “faith”. Quit changing the subject when you don’t like the question. Above all quit being vague as it actually portrays ignorance.

      I ever tell you I’m ambidextrous? Donning my silver suit as its likely going to come from both sides…

  27. Reply to Todd #19

    Todd,

    I used to be like you. I totally ignored my intuition. It was to my deteriment damn near every time. Once I began to listen to and follow my intuition, I never regretted it. Its been several years now. In fact, I’m quite glad that I didn’t listen to the naysayers because if I had, I’d be in the same bad situation they are in today. Scoff if you will. That is your choice. You are not required to believe anyone’s intuition, not even your own.

  28. SFC Dick says:

    OH MY GOD

    Come on now, I just posted, as self appointed “always correct reasonable guy” that Todd was doing ok now because he was using reasoned argument.

    Now i see we have people arguing they think President Obama is the Anti Christ.

    ah geez, I got nuthin.

    I mean my counter argument would range from “ok, so what, your bible tells you it is going to happen, it is ordained by God, as was the crucfixon’

    to…

    WTF?

    • “I decided, how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church. So I consciously made a decision to look into that pro— that prospect.” – Transcription from the biography tape of Jim Jones [aka: kool-aid guy]

      A little too controversial for my tastes, but that’s my argument for caution when religion and politics butts heads.

      Still so much reading to do. Can’t you all take a break for a day or two?

      • SFC Dick says:

        Lortz

        enter..Me

        been there done that. The particular church, Catholic St Mary, and I had a bit of a squable.
        I freely admit i was “somewhat” wrong.

        They were, probably still are , sending money down to central America, where that churh was involved heavily with the rebels/marxist/happy-go-lucky dudes.

        There was a reason those catholic nuns were murderd.

        I take my complaint to the church.

        my argument….”WTF?”

        their argument…”we are the church, we help the poor”

        I quit while I was ahead. I was not going to pour gas on the fire by saying something like “that’s why your nuns are getting killed, the “poor” you are helping are the fighters arrayed agaunst the government”.

        The priest there ( very small church, 1 priest) was built like a linebacker and priest have been known to punch me.

        Suprising as it might sound, that is one of the reason I have a certain respect love/hate/love with the catholic church. They have honest to God priests, preists have made the comminment. they are all in, they don’t shy away from getting a man’s ( member, not just some Joe on the street) attention.

        The church is most “social” in function, that is their job. I back that 100%, ya know, so did those nuns. Their faith took them to that end. I argued from a more pragmatic point because I thought those nuns were put needlessly at risk. It was my job to kill bad guys. The church thought strongly enough that they were not going to diferentiate a man in need from a rebel in need.

        I’m all for the church, but always thinking

        render unto Ceaser…..

  29. Blame it on Bush and the CIA lied to her…….nice!

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30745095

    • dealemslim says:

      it’s the typical thing a polititan will say. they all lie. only their own skin matters to them. we need to get used to this fact.

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