Social Darwinism and Class Warfare…

cod6-class-warfareIt seemed as though one of the main discussion points yesterday ended up being the fact that I said that I am a proponent of Social Darwinism. I make no bones about that fact. I believe that you adapt or you die. You are a contributing member of society or you are a drain on society. You cannot be both. There were some questions from some of you asking for what Social Darwinism looks like in my opinion, and whether it leads eventually to class warfare. So I will discuss Social Darwinism and why I am a fervent believer in it. Further, I will discuss why it does not lead to class warfare and set up the discussion of what IS the cause of class warfare, since I feel Social Darwinism has nothing to do with it. I will then leave it to the rest of you to tell me where I am wrong.

So what exactly is this thing called Social Darwinism? A lot of the technical definitions of Social Darwinism focus on the idea that competition among all individuals, groups, nations, or ideas drive social evolution within a society. That is not the definition that fits how I see Social Darwinism, however. While I do understand that Darwinism generally refers to the idea of evolution, I have always looked at Darwinism as “survival of the fittest”, or better phrased, “adapt to the current situation or die”. You read that right, adapt or die.

Tap Dancin' in the Quarter

Tap Dancin' in the Quarter

Before some of the bleeding hearts determine me  nothing but callous and cruel, let me explain a bit more. It is not that I don’t care about people. Those who know me generally say that I am a very caring person, and I am always willing to help out those that I see struggling to make ends meet. But I have zero sympathy for those who don’t make the effort they are capable of making. Those who work hard in life get ahead, and therefore survive. Those who cannot work hard are not simply doomed in my mind. They can adapt and become something that will make someone want to help them. Whether they tap dance in the French Quarter for tips or just become a better beggar, either way they are doing something that makes people want to give them something in order to survive. 

And the great thing about most people is that if they see that someone is struggling and they see that the struggling person is giving it everything they have, they want to help that person. Charity is bigger in America than in any country in the world. We are a giving people. And we will help those that help themselves. And in that way social darwinism is perfect for me. Because the only way that you perish is by being completely worthless to society. If you have worth, there is someone willing to help you. If you have no worth, then I don’t feel as though you should survive. Survival of the species mandates that those that are too weak or have nothing to offer the species simply do not move on down the evolutionary path. Evolution weeds out the worthless. That is how it works.

I know it sounds cruel, but it isn’t. It is natural. I love people. I don’t kill spiders, even the Black Widows who are everywhere here. I take them outside and send them on their way. I value life more than most. But nature says that survival of the species is the natural order of the world. As BlackFlag would say, that is the way of the Universe in my opinion. It cannot be wrong, because it happens everywhere in nature except in mankind and the things that mankind influences. And the universe does not contradict and offers infinite solutions. There are endless ways to make yourself useful to society. 

Tired? Imagine 2 jobs on Top of This...

Tired? Imagine 2 jobs on Top of This...

Why do I feel this way? Hard to say. Perhaps because I have had to work hard for everything I ever got. I never got a handout. Not once. When I was living in a $250 a month trailer with a new wife and son, I got no help from anyone. I simply worked harder. I took jobs other people didn’t want. Any day I wasn’t working at my main job I worked a second job, and sometimes a third. I sacrificed and struggled and willed myself and my family to survive. I made myself someone that people wanted to help, so they gave me work to do. I was too proud to take charity. Nothing was below me, as long as it paid to feed my family or keep them clothed and sheltered. 

And I continued to work my tail off until I caught a break here and there. I went to school, learned more. I spent money wisely and lived within my means. And when it came to work I worked harder and longer than others until someone gave me a chance to prove myself. When that chance came, I used my intelligence and my work ethic to ensure that I capitalized. Over time I built a good life, which I have now. And when I got there, you know what happened? They told me that I had to take the money that I earned through 20 years of slaving away, and give it to someone else, who was not willing to sacrifice what I sacrificed to get where I am. 

Class War Ruin AmericaThat, to me, is the essence of why I cannot support the Obama administration or the Democratic party. It is the belief of that party that they have the right to TAKE my money, that 20 years of work got me in the position to make, and give it to those who have not worked to earn it. Those people are not forced to prove they deserve my money. They are allowed to not work, to have as many children as they like, and to pick and choose what labor they are willing to perform. Had I done what so many of them do, I would have died, and so would my family. The Democrats have taken away the natural law of social darwinism. And you cannot do that and expect to be supported by me. 

The repeal of Welfare Reform laws was the biggest mistake thus far by Democrats. As welfare was operating, people were given that helping hand to overcome difficulty, but they were forced to do something. They had a limited time to collect benefits, and at the end of that time, they had better have bettered themselves and made themselves of worth to society, because if they didn’t they were screwed. And it was working! But no, we can’t have that. Not under the new banner of entitlement raised by Obama. He eliminated the requirements to find work and expanded the benefits. He forced states to increase welfare payouts and decrease restrictions. And now he promises that I will pay for their healthcare too. 

Keep em PoorAnd all the while, he increases the costs of living for those poor so that they will never get ahead no matter how much “help” they are given. Cap and Trade: Paid for by the poor. Massive Cigarette tax increase: Paid by the poor. Financial and Auto Industry bailouts: Paid for by the poor. Increased Regulation on Industry: Paid for by the poor. Anyone who says otherwise is naive to the reality of how the system works. But the poor are too busy trying to survive to take the time to see it all. All they know is that great man came on TV and promised to make their life better. And any man who promises to make their life better gets their vote, especially when a willing media helps to spread the lie. For 50 years the Democratic party has promised to change the life of the poor, the minorities, the immigrants, through the use of these entitlement programs. And for 50 years the problem has gotten worse for those groups. Yet the Messiah goes on TV and says it and they buy it again, hook, line, and sinker. 

What is it they say about the definition of insanity? And before I get accused of bias yet again (which I most assuredly am), this is not an endorsement for the Republican party. Those bloodsuckers haven’t done much better, but at least they didn’t repeal the one welfare reform legislation that was working.

So the real question of the day was whether or not Social Darwinism will lead to class warfare. It is a logical question, and is somewhat difficult to answer. The answer will be accepted by those who agree with my premise and it will be rejected by those who disagree with my premise. However the bottom line it that my premise is right. It’s my blog so I said so, LOL.  My beginning premise is that Class Warfare is not a result of unequal classes in society, it is the result of unequal opportunity in society. And more often than not class warfare is something cultured and grown by government as a means of control. Those are my premises. 

I don’t remember who said it in last night’s post comments, I believe that it was CWO2USNRet who said it, but I could be wrong. At any rate the statement was something along the lines that equal opportunity is what makes people happy, not equal outcomes. I think that statement is dead on target. Social Darwinism does not take away the ability for equal opportunity, and therefore, can not be a cause of class warfare. People today are OK with the fact that there are those better off than them, who enjoy a higher class of life, a better world free of worry about survival. I really don’t think anyone has a real problem with that, hence my statement that unequal class is not the cause of class warfare. 

Class Warfare FishOn the other hand, when those in one class feel that those in a higher class are there due to some advantage they were given or due to some construct that keeps the lower class from reaching that level, that is where class warfare finds a welcome petrie dish in which it can grow. Again Social Darwinism does not have any aspects which interfere with the opportunity to change classes so it cannot be the cause of class warfare. 

So class warfare must be caused by something else other than Social Darwinism. As a rule, I have set that class warfare is the result of classes feeling that there is not equal opportunity to change classes. With that as my rule, what causes there to not be equal opportunity in today’s America? When you answer that question, you will have the cause of class warfare in America. But class warfare is not, in my opinion, in any way caused by Social Darwinism. 

So there you have your real statement and your real question. Feel free to tell me where I am screwed up in my thinking (as if I have to tell you all to tear me apart anymore, you do that just fine when you feel the need, lol). If you would like I can write a post in a couple of days that gives you my answers to the question. You will have to let me know if that is what you want me to do. So just as a final reminder:

My Statement is that Class Warfare is caused by inequality of opportunity, not inequality of outcome or Social Darwinism in any way. 

My question is what is it that causes inequality of opportunity in today’s America? Answer that and you have found the cause of class warfare.

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Comments

  1. Vinnster says:

    USW,

    All points right on the money.

    One of the great differentiators between the Liberal and the non-Liberal is the Liberal believes and tries to enforce equal outcome at the expense of equal opportunity and individual freedoms, while the non-Liberal believes in equal opportunity where freedom to achieve allows people to reach and exceed their evolutionary potential, which usually results in personal and financial success.

    In general, people are born with a “set” of abilities that are all about equal, except in maybe one area or two, where they are more advanced than the common person. Examples are: better mathematical skills, better musical skills, better social skills…

    People who are exceptional in a given area are “talented”. They are born with the superior ability to do something almost effortlessly. Some people are blessed to be born with a large number of abilities superior to most people. Most of use grew up knowing one of these people. They were the jocks, who had straight As while being the best athlete as well as being genuinely liked by everyone because they also had above average social skills. Or the female version, who was the Homecoming Queen, Valedictorian and class president while being liked by everyone.

    Likewise, most people suffer from being below the average in one or two abilities where they function below the average person. And there are folks who are not “naturally” good or talented at anything and suffer below average abilities in many areas.

    It is how these people are viewed and what their future potential should be is where the Liberal and non-Liberal are on different ends of the spectrum

    The Liberal considers the gifted person as “winning life’s lottery” and the not so gifted as “forever” at a disadvantage that must be remedied by their intervention and governance to “assist” the disadvantaged and hold back the advantaged to produce equal outcomes of success. They tend to believe whatever disadvantages a person is born with determines their lot in life, like it is destiny they will be less successful than the talented person.

    There is one problem with the Liberal’s position, it does not reflect reality. It is a fantasy in their minds. The reality is, people with amazing talent can and do fail at life and people who were born with few gifts can be very successful. If you are not very young and have traveled around this world a bit then you know this to be a fact. “Success stories” of those who should have failed, but succeed abound, as well as people who started life with every advantage fail miserably.

    So what determines success or which class a person ends up in? Quite simply, it what we are taught and what we learn about how to live and prosper that determines a persons success.

    To answer your question of the day, “whether or not Social Darwinism will lead to class warfare”…it does not. In fact, it has the opposite effect of motivating the successful to teach success to everyone so the difference in the classes, is less, not more.

    It is illogical for the non-Liberal rich to purposely keep a large number of the voting population poor. Doing so only makes the rich and their wealth more vulnerable to a large number of voting poor to take the wealthy persons money. The majority of the wealthy people in America earned their wealth by working very hard, as you described you have. If one reads many books about how most became wealthy in America, they find it had little to do with being “gifted” at birth or advantaged, but everything about how they chose to live and accumulate wealth.

    As much as Liberals hate it, the fact is most wealthy people started out with little more than nothing and earned it, “the old-fashioned way”, by working very hard over a long period of time and most importantly, living below their means. It is that simple, it has been repeated over and over again, and it is teachable to everyone except the most severely mentally handicapped.

    What causes poverty and class warfare is Liberalism/Socialism. And that discussion is for another thread.

  2. Good Morning,

    Another great thought provoking article USW, kudos!

    I’m not so sure we are seeing class warfare, at least not yet. As I see it, everyone has, has had, or will have every oppurtunity to succeed in life. What is lacking in many people is “desire” to succeed. Welfare lifers and their families have learned how to abuse the system to a point where they don’t have to even try. The local welfare office here is next to a technical school (high school level), and the first of every month, the streets are lined with vehicles of those in need of assistance. There are Escalades, Hummers, SUV’s, Caddys, Chrysler 300’s etc parked all over the place that day. So I ask, why should these people even try?

    A few days ago, Michelle Obama showed up at a local soup kitchen to serve food to the homeless and needy. Props to her. I have a picture of this, that shows MO behind the counter, with people in line to get some grub. The first person in line is actually takeing a picture of MO with a camera phone!!!! Does anyone think that person needs to “try” to better himself? ( I can email this to you USW if you would like).

    I think real class warfare has yet to come. It may come when those of us who earn a living get fed up with what I have stated above, and say “NO MORE”! Or it may come a few years away, under the predictions by Black Flag and the fall of economy. Either way, it’s coming, and I don’t think it will be pretty.

    G!

    • CA Mama says:

      The welfare office in the town I grew up in was on Easy St. (no kidding)

      Go figure…..

      Regards,

      J

    • G-man,

      What do you think of many people’s definition of success? Is it the material or non material? Maybe different definitions of ‘success’ are part of the problem? It seems to me that many people think success means quantity of ‘stuff’ to show off to friends and family. For me, that is not success. For example, several years ago, I worked with a young woman from Bulgaria. She is a very talented and intelligent young woman. Job title, promotions and pay amounts were very important to her. She pushed herself very hard to excell. I don’t recall how we came to be discussing this topic, but she was shocked at my definition of success. For me, success was defined as: waking up in the morning, and looking forward to your day; not dreading going to work and dealing with a bunch of you-know-whats every morning. Having a family that loves you, appreciates you, and treats you with respect; having enough money to provide at the basics and hopefully a bit extra for some fun; to basically, just be glad you’re alive and be able to enjoy the simple things in life. I’ll never forget the look on her face. She must of thought I’d lost my mind. I hadn’t. I just had my priorities is all. I no longer have anything to prove to anybody. Once I reached that point in my life, it all became clear to me, and so much more enjoyable. Just my thoughts…..

  3. Bama dad says:

    Good morning all,

    Another good job there USW.

    “My question is what is it that causes inequality of opportunity in today’s America?”

    Hey I’ll jump in and give my “opinion”, probably not right but what the heck.

    1. Some people are just lazy, they want the good things of life without the work.
    2. Some people feel like they are entitled, everyone owes it to them.
    3. We live in a world of self gratification, I want it now, I deserve it.
    4. Breakdown of the family, parents not teaching responsibility and self worth.
    5. Government handout without requiring work for it.

    Got to leave it there and get to work. For some reason they expect me to actually work for the money they pay me.

    • Great post USW!
      You definitely aced this one. I really can’t understand how anyone would not agree with your assessment.

      You got it exactly right Bama Dad. As Esom said, he lives 80 or 90 miles from you and agrees, I live over 2500 miles from you and agree as well, we are all in this together!

    • Thunderchild says:

      BAMA DA:

      You hit the nail on the head!!! I am sick of seeing people that think because I work hard and have more than they do, I am supposed to GIVE them some of what I have. My response:

      GET YOUR LAZY AZZ TO WORK!!!

  4. Inequality of opportunity is caused by the propaganda machine. This machine tells you that if you are black, hispanic, female, poor, handicapped or whatever, you have no equal chance. You are doomed to failure from the get go. This invariably makes money and gives power to the propaganda machine

    As a kid I loved biographies. there was no shortage of books telling me how Edison or Lindberg or Carnegie made it to the top by going the extra mile and taking the risk. The constant theme was that these folks did it on their own. Well, today I think we have a shortage of those stories. Instead we are bombarded with stories of downtrodden, underprivileged people who need our help or have managed to climb out of a sewer only because of our (government, ACORN’s) help.

    My exhibit A would be to go out and ask the average person if they knew that one of the hallmarks of the first 100 days was the destruction of welfare reform. Almost no one is aware of this. Just ask. This happened despite the fact that the program had immense popular support when it was launched and from my own, inner city, boots on the ground biased perspective, worked, better than advertised. That however was grudgingly acknowledged at best. No popular books, no newspaper or magazine series as to how the four generation poverty cycle was broken. Nada, nothing. Why you ask? Goes back to the propaganda machine. Our liberal friends in the media are delusional. Even when you prove to them they are wrong they can and will ignore it. Another of my wonderful military analogies Liberal= Hitler in the bunker, 20 April 1945, waiting for the 12th (nonexistent) army to save him.

    Never forget that just because you are poor, on welfare,live in a slum or belong to an underclass does not mean you are not on the successful side of social Darwinism. Look at those folks who work for ACORN and the other non profits. Look for the people who game the system. That, G-Man is where the welfare Cadillacs and picture phones come from (as an aside, please note that you will be scoffed at for even bringing this up.It doesn’t and can’t possibly happen. I have been told that by “experts” for years). For five years (’92-’98) I had my little Real Estate management office in the basement of a 60 unit apartment building off Lenox Avenue in Harlem. At least 70% of my tenants were on some type of public assistance. Every single one of them and I mean every one had another source of income. Off the books work in the local bodega, waitressing, drug selling, drug steering, drug mule, drug lookout, street mechanic, prostitute, Cigarette bootlegging, gambling, gun running). All cash, all off the books. Their kids had much better video games than mine did. What they had, that the working poor did not, was an amazing amount of free time to be creative in. If for some reason Ray or Chris is out there lurking and don’t believe this, ask a good street cop in an urban area. After he gets to trust you that is.

    Since I have spent most of my career working in some wild and wholly neighborhoods, I have stories. When I travel the fifteen lousy miles across the GW Bridge to my home, as far as my liberal neighbors are concerned, I exaggerate or maybe even outright lie. Jack Nicholson said it best in “A Few Good Men”, “You can’t handle the truth!”. They have been told and they believe the propaganda. They have to. They live in the “affluent” suburbs and are so full of guilt (and something else too) that they couldn’t recognize the truth if it came up and whacked them upside the head.

    So, US, you did it again, came up with a wonderful topic with which I have some familiarity and am honored to comment.

    • esomhillgazette says:

      When I worked in The Computer Store, I too had experience with thise kinds of idiots. So I can verify it too. A lot of them had a very lucrative business going on their computers with Illegal movies, music and eBay.

    • SK, Great post! What I brought up causes me to be scoffed at, then I’m willing to debate the truth with anyone. Your input is a much closer vision of that reality. And that reality really ticks me off!!

      G!

      • Not that I think it will work, but you can invite these folks to take a tour of the poorer urban areas. An afternoon will not give you the sense of what is really going on but it starts the brain turning over. Feel free to quote me anytime. I’m one of the few who can say, ” been there, done that”, for real.

        Anything I said earlier should not be construed as a denial that there are some really poor people out there. In addition to supplementing the goodies with off the books work, legal and illegal, the city itself forces you to do this. The welfare shelter allowance is a joke and subsistence allowances are not much better. So, it’s actually kind of interesting that a program designed to help the poor actually teaches them to be cheats and liars. Things were much better in the old days when the social workers had to get off their asses and visit their charges. Back in the early ’60’s in NY, they actually looked in closets for hidden TV’s and boyfriends.

        The part about welfare reform that nobody ever got was that few stayed at minimum wage when they started to work. They moved up the ladder. It was sometimes hard to convince them of this since “future” is an alien concept in that formerly hand to mouth existence. I fear for the worst now since a lot of these folks have lost their jobs in the recession and are vulnerable to, “See, we told you it was all a big lie and wouldn’t work”. Those of us who have known nothing but the world of work since our teens have experienced downturns and kind of roll with the punches, these people, like kids in their first jobs have not and are easy pickins for the damn Capitalism to hell crowd.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          SK – I’ll have to take exception to one of your points….

          I would be curious if there are any current or former social workers on the board here. My wife was a social worker. She left the position and field because, over several positions in different orgs they were constantly out of ratio – having to manage significant numbers of cases – more than were humanly possible. It is rather flippant to say “they need to get off their asses”. True there are lazy social workers the same as any field. I can only relate that friends and family work in those types of fields (add in probation and parole officers) generally have case loads that preclude them from doing anything more than cursory service if any at all. You get what you pay for – programs that use social workers too often are lumped into ‘social programs’ which the right/conservatives/republicans hate funding.

          • USWeapon says:

            Excellent point Ray. The system is broken from many angles and that includes those who are really there to help, such as your wife and family. I think one of the letdowns of the welfare reform that was repealed was that while it set a timeline and limits, it didn’t do enough to create an environment that helped those who wanted to change their lot in life to be able to. The program was working in spite of this, but imagine how much better it could have worked if the mechanisms for change were as effective as the change in mindset was. Which begs the question, why would government set up a program that had limits on benefits and requirements for work, but not set up the system to effectively help facilitate that change?

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              IMHO – power and improper/unnecessary control. Back to my theme of effective government versus perpetual/wasteful government. Some programs should have a termination date added to them. In the welfare program issue I’ll offer an example. In my field, InfoSec, much of what we used to do was very manual – every server log file had to be manually reviewed for example. Tools and technology have allowed us to automate much of that, but the mindset still exists that we need armies of people staring at screens all day. BS I say!

              • USWeapon says:

                Excellent points. I will have to ponder this idea a bit more, but initially I think that you are right on the money here. Both efficiency and power are at play here.

          • esomhillgazette says:

            I have to agree with you Ray that the Social Workers are given immpossible case loads to handle. From what I see here, one reason is because it is underfunded. Another is that it pays very little. There’s not too many folks that want to get a Bachelors Degree for a thankless and low paying job.

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              They tend to be collateral damage because they programs they are nobly trying to execute are ill-conceived or not purpose driven. One agency were my wife worked turned into nothing more than a dumping ground for people to drop up mentally challenged (I don’t know what the PC term here is) adults – she was one of many ‘babysitters’ that ended up changing their diapers all day or breaking up fights rather than helping these people do anything meaningful with their lives.

              • Ray, At least your wife tried her best, kudos to her for caring. Social work is much like being a union steward (which I am), it’s thankless, and you always seem to be trying to help people that are to damn dumb to know they need help, or just don’t want the help. Then when they don’t listen to you, get in a world of trouble, they blame the very people trying to help them. I hope your wife has found a better more satisfying job, after what she went through, she deserves it!

                G!

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                G – she works in insurance now – I don’t allow her to talk about work while at home as I get too pissed off.

            • CWO2USNRet says:

              ESOM, to strengthen your point, almost all Social Work positions require a Master’s Degree.

              • esomhillgazette says:

                Yeah, and who’s gonna go to School that long for that? Not Many! Kudos to those who do!

          • Actually, I should apologize, after I wrote it I remembered that there were two problems at the time. The first was the “we shouldn’t check on them, its too much like spying” school of thought. This was a big thing in the ’60’s. Ultimately it prevailed, over the objection of a lot of old time social workers. A short lived early 60’s TV series called “East Side, West Side,” Starring George C. Scott as a NY social worker was pretty evenhanded about the problem. Don’t know if it’s available on video but your wife might enjoy it for the “gritty realism”.

            The second problem, immediately on the heels of the first was the tripling of the welfare rolls in NY in the first John Lindsay term. You are right, no one could keep up with those numbers.

            I happen to agree with you on the necessity for social workers, so long as they do not have an agenda of their own. We interfaced with them a lot. Some were consummate professionals, others were nothing more than delusional rabble rousers.

            A well organized and led social services department cuts down on waste, fraud and abuse dramatically. While it may initially cost more than it saves, over time it cuts the costs dramatically when folks learn they will get caught and punished. Then you can shrink the force.

            Point in mind, NY State loses over 1.5 billion per year on medicaid fraud. The fraud investigatory staff is minimal. Budget constraints!? keep the staff down. Who is kidding who here.

            At least in DOSS, the social workers, in addition to handing out good advice were charged with keeping the system honest.

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              Dang – good points SK – I’ll agree that when the wife did that line of work there seemed to be high concentrations of folks with an agenda outside the scope of what they were supposed to do.

    • S.K.

      “Instead we are bombarded with stories of downtrodden, underprivileged people who need our help or have managed to climb out of a sewer only because of our (government, ACORN’s) help.” You forgot the other part of this. The stories we are told about the successful, ie rich, are that they are stealing, cheating and lying their way to the top…at our expense.

      Propoganda can’t work by only showing victims. It must also have a villain.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      I would suggest that inequality of opportunity is a naturally occurring phenomena for some/maybe not all people. For some it is real and for some it is perceived. I do not believe it is caused by a propaganda machine (which I assume by corollary you mean liberals/democrats/MSM or DLM) but rather that those with a far left social agenda may use it as the fulcrum to substantiate their position, and which in many cases may only serve to create a vicious circle as has been discussed before – but for those same ‘classes’ or folks that were born into extreme poverty and inherently lack equal opportunity I am not sure all of them become part of a “warring class” because they watched too much Keith Olbermann or they read the Huffington Post every night. I do think in many cases that they may be easier prey to those with an agenda and they don’t see that the very ‘programs’ they support are engineered to keep them in the program.

      So SK – across our great land – for every cadre of drug-dealing, gun running, Cadillac riding, hookers/pimps that plays the system and operates their own black market of cold cash, there are suit-wearing, mercedes driving, Westchester-living, wall street working stiff that operates their own black market of ‘off the books’ financial products that no one understands and only they profit from.

      ….there is also a cadre of folks like some cousins I have – cousins that are far more native american than I, live on reservation lands (no casino), have little to no other relatives that can read or write, or graduated high school (none have gone to college). If they have a TV they may get a handful of local stations. They have never traveled far from home to experience the ‘world out there’, and pardon the pun, their world view and perspectives and thoughts are completely tribal (some of these people have never used an ATM let alone even have a bank account). From birth did they have an equal opportunity as I? Nope. Should they have? Loaded question – ensuring they have an equal opportunity is usually seen as DLM driven no? They are certainly not on the ‘right’ side of social darwinism – hence where this conundrum first came up.

      What I guess is disturbing is that in your example we are to think that those in the apartment building ended up on the right side of the SD scale? In your humble opinion is that a good thing?

      • CWO2USNRet says:

        Ray, certainly there is room to improve the equality of opportunity. A strong, competitive education system would be the foundation here. On the other hand, your point is diluted by the simple fact that there are plenty of cases of underprivileged youths that make the most of the opportunities available to them and become successful. That points to the notion that attitude and cultural values play a strong role. I think more can be gained by striving to overturn the cultural values and attitudes of the underprivileged that disdain education and middle class values.

      • Question Ray,

        Are your Native American cousins happy? I’m not trying to be contentious or anything. I know that many NA communites have problems, such as alcholism, diabities, poverty, etc. But, most non NA communities also have problems, and still people live, laugh and love in all of them. Several years ago, some family members and I spent a vacation on the Navajo reservation. Though they appeared not have much in the way of material wealth, the people seemed very happy. They were friendly and helpful, and just seemed like very decent regular folks. I believe they had somthing of real value, intangible, but valuable non the less. I haven’t heard of any high profile agitators for the NA peoples. I’m sure they have their activists, but I don’t see the hatred and jealousy in NA communites like I see in other non white communities. Is this an accurate observation on my part?

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          Cyndi – that is actually a very good and valid question. Are they happy? I would suppose so. When we visited when we were younger it felt like we often looked at each other with sort of a curiosity – like we really were two different ‘peoples’. Family I still have out there – they are not much different at the end of the day – have they had the same opportunity as access to? No – not at all. Do they much care? I’m not sure they do – they do not aspire to all the same things everyone else may – with they younger generations that model is shifting somewhat and there is a frustration in access to resources.

          • Hi Ray,

            I find it interesting that it seems to be only the younger generation that is somewhat disatisfied. I guess some of that is related maturity, or lack of it. But as people age and hopefully mature, their priorities change. Is that not happening in your relatives? I know many people my age (47) who are still in love with stuff and status. Many of them are rather stressed out I might add.

            I live in the Marshall Islands. The older generation of Marshellese people seem much more traditional in their dress, customs and behavior, whereas many of the youger people seem to be heavily influenced by American popular culture. They too seem be bit disatified. Could it be that American popular culture is part of the problem? Are your cousins havily influenced by it?

      • Of course Ray, I love that stupid old Army commercial. “Be all that you can be”. I can’t stand it when a God given talent is wasted. It’s bad enough when this happens because someone slides into addiction but to have it happen because, since an early age, you have been told you are worthless and stupid and in need of someone’s caring care, well, that’s a real crime.

        Here’s where I depart from the norm. I have a problem with non-producers pulling down six and seven figure salaries. Tax payers or not, I have never been happy with people whose sole purpose is moving pieces of paper around that usually result in the elimination of jobs making out like bandits.

        Here’s the final riddle on that, When the last manufacturing job is shipped overseas, who will have the money to buy the imported crap they ship here?.

    • Bama dad says:

      SK

      I am a simple guy, who in your opinion drives the propaganda machine? I promise I am not trying to set you up.

      • In three words, well intentioned fools.

        You just have to hang out with the right people and listen to them. I’m reminded of the incident in the Malcom X bio when the liberal young girl from Columbia U asks him “What can I do to help the cause?”. He turns and answers, “nothing”. The scene is in the movie too. People who “get it” know that the pump cannot be primed from outside. Outside can suggest but cannot lead the way. It’s like any other 12 step program, first you have to acknowledge you have a problem. It’s easier to realize this if there is not some mommy out there feeding and burping you.

        Education and Social work schools come to mind as places that spew out activists. We don’t need activists, we need people who teach and people who who can give sound advice. That advice may involve being judgmental. Things like, Heroin and Crystal Meth are bad, staying in school is good, getting pregnant at 13 is bad. well intentioned fools do not believe in being judgmental.

        Anybody see the Glen Beck interview with the ACORN guy last week? I only caught part of it but that non-profit nitwit demonstrated exactly what I’m talking about. He, who looks like he never had a poor day in his life, is going to save the poor. That’s not the way it works.

  5. esomhillgazette says:

    Mornin’ USW!
    Bama Dad stated above his answer for your question. Maybe it’s because he and I only live about 80 or 90 miles apart, I think he has hit the nail on the head. So much so, that I just copied and pasted his answer to my post. Hope you don’t mind Bama. I just don’t see the need to retype verbatim what I totally agree with.

    1. Some people are just lazy, they want the good things of life without the work.

    2. Some people feel like they are entitled, everyone owes it to them.

    3. We live in a world of self gratification, I want it now, I deserve it.

    4. Breakdown of the family, parents not teaching responsibility and self worth.

    5. Government handout without requiring work for it.

    Now I’m going to add one more. I don’t know if Bama would have, but I see this as a major reason for the other 5.

    6. Government, or a Government official, TELLING the people that they deserve what the other, more hardworking people have, because it is their right.

    This is the essence of Obama telling Joe the Plumber he wanted to “Spread the Wealth”. This last is why this Congress and this Administration (notice I didn’t say a Party name, they are ALL to blame) is going after the “More Fortunate” peoples wealth.

    Oh yeah, there’s going to be Class Warfare. But it will be caused by our Government, NOT Social Darwinism. And the worst part is, the Government will surely side with the poor, unfortunate, worthless dregs of society because they “deserve” the same things the hardworking do.

    Like you I know that there are people who do in fact need help through no fault of their own. Stuff happens. That is life and we SHOULD help these type of folks. But through charities, not Government. Government has never handled anything that they haven’t messed up. So why should this be any different?

    One more thing I have to ask. Why are they called “ENTITLEMENTS”??? Here is the actual definition of the word – 1) the act of entitling 2)to entitle

    3)the right to Guaranteed benefits under a Government Program as Social Security or Unemployment Compensation.

    Notice I put this last out all by itself. I cannot believe a dictionary actually has this as the “Definition” of the word.

    But such is the system we live under today. These benefits have gone from a “hand UP”, to a “hand OUT”.

    • Esom,

      Cannot disagree with you except for the Class Warfare, government siding with the poor comment. Of course they will but not because they “deserve” more. Only the useful idiots at the bottom of the bureaucracy believe that.

      It is all about power. Keep em down keep em hungry and they will vote for you. I always think back to, I believe it was the Gracci brothers in ancient Rome. Advocates for the poor, more bread! better circuses! Reminded me of the Kennedy brothers. The Gracci’s wound up the same way, assassinated.

      I will never understand why anyone would want to dominate and have power over anyone else. I guess I missed the closing of that particular brain synapse.

      • esomhillgazette says:

        SK, that is WHY I think that the Govt will side with the poor. To keep the lie going. They will have too in order to perpetuate the idea that these people deserve it.

        Just look at Obama wanting to take tax Breaks away from the folks who are wealthy. He isn’t talking about the “Super” rich. He’s going after small businesses and ‘Well-off” people.

        And yes, it IS about power. Just like granting amnesty and citizenship to the 11 to 20 million illegals in this Country. Who will most of them vote to keep in power?

        It’s all about STAYING in Power.

        And I won’t ever understand it either SK. They say that Power corrupts, and Absolute power corrupts Absolutely. I have never seen this disproved.

        • Some good points. I don’t think its about keeping them down, its keeping them dependent. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you, but will attack the one trying to take away that meal.

          Agree, its all about staying in power. And Pelosi has a “vision” of what America should be.

    • Bama dad says:

      Howdy Esom

      Don’t mind, like your add on.

    • Bama dad says:

      Esom left you a funny truth on you site, lrt me know what you think.

    • CWO2USNRet says:

      ESOM,

      <blockquote cite=”One more thing I have to ask. Why are they called “ENTITLEMENTS”???”

      I’ve never seen that question asked before. Perfect!!

      • CWO2USNRet says:

        So much for my blockquote syntax.

      • esomhillgazette says:

        Entitle means to give a person a tile, claim, or right, to something.

        This is my problem with this CWO.

        A lot of folks these days seem to believe that they not only can get these benefits, but somehow that it is their RIGHT to get them.

        Calling them “Entitlements” are one reason for this. These programs I believe were well intentioned. But as usual, our Government Bunny Huggers decided that, instead of them being a temporary measure to give folks a hand UP in hard times, to make them hand OUTS and make them permanent.

        Now they are calling them entitlements and letting folks that are on them believe they have a basic right to these services. This in turn perpetuates the cycle of Government dependency which our corrupt Government uses to stay in power.

        Party lines are at best a minimal and argumentative line on the floor. Either Party will use these “Entitlements” to stay in office by coercing the public that gets them with things like “he\she wants to reduce or take away your entitlements!” Then when someone else wants the office, they tell the public the same thing. No one wants to lose their “right” to benefits.

  6. EVERYBODY:

    I address you all this morning and instead of waiting until later I thought I had better speak up.

    You are all way off track, well on a track but the wrong one for now.

    You are all looking at symptoms of the disease. Dig deeper and find the disease.

    What is it that causes the maladies you are listing and discussing. I provided a short comment on it yesterday when challenging Ray on this issue.

    Here is my clue to you: Think philosophy.

    The bitter cold has broken and it looks like warming is finaly here, for a day or two.
    So happy spring and good morning.
    JAC

    • esomhillgazette says:

      JAC, You and BF are much more articulate than I. I know that the problem is the philosophy of the people needs to change.

      Hell the philosophy of the GOVERNMENT needs to change as well.

      I can’t wait for you and BF and USW to start that series. It should teach us all a lot.

      • Hell Esom I’m not that much more articulate than you or anyone else here. I sit here with a dictionary and word book in my lap.

        Like most folks, my mind is much more complicated than my vocabulary.

        Remember my West Virginia friends duck test for reading southern? I was the only guy in our office that could read it. He was very impressed.

        I do appreciate the pat on the back though.
        JAC

      • Esom:

        Yes it needs to change but first you must identify what it is. That will answer so many more questions.

        Then it will help you figure out how to make changes that will last.

        Happy thinking my friend.
        JAC

  7. I felt bad about referencing yesterdays comments when there were over 200 to look through. So the following is the comment I referred to:

    It does not result in class warfare. That is created by a philosophy that debases and demonizes the successful and that uses envy and jealousy to foment hate against them. All for the purpose of using the less fortunate, or successful, as a tool to weaken the more fortunate, or successful, in order to contol both.

    That is not a philosophy held by most Conservatives I know. So who among us holds that philosophy. Who among us continues to espouse the concepts that fit this philosophy? You be the judge.”

    I hope that makes things a little easier, or at least more efficient.

    JAC

    • Extremely well put JAC!

      The play-one-side-against-the-other game has been played long enough and needs to end. NOW!

  8. CWO2: Are you on yet this morning? I wanted to make sure we get the snake thing resolved.
    JAC

    • CWO2USNRet says:

      Got it. Nice metaphor. Were you making a point with that story or simply turning me on to good read? I’ve lost track of your intent.

      Thanks!

  9. I very much agree with the concept, work or starve. . . I actually teach that to my kids. No, I don’t starve them, but they work BEFORE they get dinner. When they are whinny or lazy, I tell them to stop sucking the life out of the family and to be a functional human being.

    As for class warfare. Some of it is caused by individual greed, but mostly I have to say it is caused by greed played upon by government or some other group wishing to control people. The French Revolution comes to mind as one of the worst possible examples of Class warfare and we do not want to go there.

    The lower/peasant classes in France were treated atrociously, they did not have equality of opportunity and there was essentially no way for them to improve. In England the peasants slowly gained more freedom and social mobility and a middle class developed, but in France the people were driven harder and harder into the dirt. I think that perhaps many people in America imagine that is the case here right now with minoritites and inner cities.

    It is not. The causes for American poverty are as Esom and Bama have already stated. A Huge portion, if not the only, blame lies in the government welfare program and the political propaganda. There is more than one way to keep people down and handing them money is just as effective as withholding it.

    Why do I believe that? Simply becasue these people already have been given free education, free housing, free land in some cases, and a check every month. They are still as poor and infinitely worse off in their spirits than they were to begin with. Also the condition is not limited to urban centers. Indian reservations in rural locations are just as bad. These people have just as many talents and abilities and opportunities as most people. The worst punishment we can give people rising up out of the dust is to put them on the dole. Do we hate blacks and indians and hispanics and poor white people that much?

    The bloodiest aspects of the French Revolution were a result of class warfare. The French were not content to remove the corrupt King and Aristocrats from power, they must also punish them and their families. Any in America who see to play the classes against each other are playing a very dangerous game.

  10. Great post USW. I’m trying to really think through this and figure out if there are some other answers to your question. What causes one person to decide they want and can do better and the next person to sit back and accept their lot in life?

    I was going to say education but really the first education starts with the family so I think the breakdown of family structure is first and foremost. A child is born into welfare – who first will influence that child to let them know life doesn’t have to be that way? The family. Does the family get that child out to see a better world or do they expose them to the entitlement/victim view?

    I’ve referenced it before when I talked of my state’s welfare reform program and the explaining that took place to get it through. You need to change the mindset, you need to show them how, you need to see better in them than they can see in themselves. This is what leadership is – first from the family, then the educational system, the government and on and on.

    This is probably my biggest issue with liberals and Dems, and unfortunately with the backward changes the current administration has put in, this won’t be getting better anytime soon.

    • Kathy,

      I know I’ve mentioned it before, but in my career I met two women both in their early to mid forties who were GREAT GRANDMOTHERS! No society can survive that produces that.

      Worst part was that these were bright women, successful at gaming the system. Unfortunately they were the third and fourth generation on the dole. Nobody ever told them there was a better way. So, in addition to providing low to moderate income housing,this white interloper was the one telling them to go to school, keep their kids in school and establish limits for their kids. Always wondered if any of it worked.

  11. What is it that causes the inequity of opportunity in today’s America?

    Not a “fair” question, but I will answer. Opportunity cannot be equal. We live in different environments. Are all math teachers equal, with the same degree’s?
    Maybe on paper, but their pay is different city to city, state to state. Are their skills equal? We have all had good and bad teachers. And you cannot help where or to whom you are born. Good parents and bad parents are there, and society cannot “fix” all inequalities. Some area’s are more prosperous, with the resulting of better resources. I am an excellent swimmer, but did not live where there were swim teams for me to join. I could have been a “Michael Phelps”, can I sue someone for not having that chance? Or do we require the large schools to fill in their pools, so we are all equal? Everybody gets a pool or nobody does?

    I was told a story I believe to be true. A business owner was complaining to his workers about not returning on time from their hourly lunch break. They said traffic, long lines, etc. , that they could not do this in an hour. He put in a cafferteria. They complained about no food variety. He increased the selection to three each day and still they complained. He closed the cafferteria. Liken this to America, the more free lunch that is given, the more is expected. Welfare, SS, medicare, etc., them more GIVEN, the more is expected.

    Robert Heinlein wrote a story, “Have Spacesuit, Will Travel”, where a kid buys a used spacesuit, and ends up traveling to the moon. Was he “qualified” for this wonderful adventure? No, he was just prepared.

    Chris Gardner was portrayed in “The Pursuit of Happiness” by Will Smith. Based
    on a true story, an ex-navy, african american, with no college education goes from being poor and homeless to a multimillionaire.

    Opportunities come by chance, from work, and endless other factors. That has always been, and always will be so. There is no “cause” of inequity in the US or the world. We are all given life, with obstacles to either overcome.
    Or not.

    What has changed is the perception that everyone starts, or should begin with us all having perfectly equal environments. It is our choice to make the best or the worst out of what life hands us. And it is a sad world where the media, academics and politicians have waged this “class war” to further their agenda.

  12. CWO2USNRet says:

    The post I wrote yesterday that USW referenced alluded to some empirical evidence that I didn’t have time to locate. I spent several minutes going back through some of my favorite sources and found the article I recalled here. The article entitled “What Really Buys Happiness?” was written by Arthur C. Brooks for City Journal. In it he refers to The National Opinion Research Center’s General Social Survey (GSS).

    As a side note: City Journal features a very strong collection of writers on social, political, and economic topics. Highly recommended.

    • CWO2

      Are you still watching? Time to talk snakes.
      JAC

    • CWO2

      I gota go to a lunch meeting so I’ll leave this with you. Hopefully you’ll find it before I get back. Just leave message that you found it.

      Go to the GOOOH home page.
      Below the picture is a box with selections.
      Click on the first one which is GOOOH Blogs
      Scroll down to secon blog of I think April 5th.
      C M IDBD I’s
      CM Long Necks?
      C M Dancin?
      M R Dancin Snakes

      Back in a couple hours. Hope you are having a good day.
      JAC

      • CWO2USNRet says:

        JAC, I read the piece and saw the pictures.

        C M IDBD I’s
        CM Long Necks?
        C M Dancin?
        M R Dancin Snakes

        I’m not a <=140 char guy so I’m not following the text speak. I think I’m missing something.

      • CWO2USNRet says:

        BTW (I know a little text speak thanks to my 24yo daughter)

        Snakes freak me out. Hate em.

        • Its not text speak, which I don’t do either and never have. You gotta read southern. Translation:

          See them idee beady eyes
          See them long necks.
          See them dancin.
          Them are dancin snakes.

          I hate snakes and esp the rattlin kind.
          But at least now you know why I made that reference way back when.

          Hope your smilin at least a little now.
          Have a good weekend.
          JAC

    • USWeapon says:

      CWO,

      Thanks so much for going and finding this. A great piece of information.

  13. esomhillgazette says:

    Bama sent me this little story on my site and, since it seemed to fit today’s topic, I posted it here. And let me say Bama that I have been fussed at before.

    But here is a legal disclaimer:
    This story is only supposed to be amusing and does not reflect any preconcieved ideas or prejudices of either the writer nor the poster. Also the owner of this blog has had no prior knowledge of this event.

    The Ant and the Grasshopper (the rest of the story)

    OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat
    all summer long, building his house and laying up
    supplies for the winter.

    The grass hopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs
    and dances and plays the summer away.

    Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

    The grass-hopper has no food or shelter, so he dies
    out in the cold.

    MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!

    ——————————————-

    MODERN VERSION:

    The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer
    long, building his house and laying up supplies for
    the winter.

    The grass-hopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs
    and dances and plays the summer away.

    Come winter, the shivering grass-hopper calls a press
    conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed
    to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.

    CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide
    pictures of the shivering grass-hopper next to a video
    of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.

    America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

    How can this be, that in a country of such wealth,
    this poor grass-hopper is allowed to suffer so?

    Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the
    grasshopper, and everybody cries when they
    sing, ‘It’s Not Easy Being Green.’

    Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the
    ant’s house where the news stations film the group
    singing, “We shall overcome.”

    Jesse then has the group knee l down to pray to God
    for the grasshopper’s sake.

    Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried exclaim in an interview
    with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the
    back of the grass-hopper, and both call for an
    immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his
    fair share.

    Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity and
    Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of
    the summer.

    The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate
    number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay
    his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

    Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the
    grass-hopper in a defamation suit against the ant,
    and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges.

    The ant loses the case.

    The story ends as we see the grass-hopper finishing up
    the last bits of the ant’s food while the government
    house he is in, which just happens to be the ant’s old house,
    crumbles around him because he doesn’t maintain it.

    The ant has disappeared in the snow.

    The grass-hopper is found dead in a drug related
    incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over
    by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful
    neighborhood.

    I wanted to post this because I believe that this is an accurate facsimile of what our society has become in this Country.

    • Sounds like (pick a street) on everyside of my town. The shame of it is that those of us that work, can’t seem to find a way to change things. O’Promter made changes, and made this story even more of a problem. We need a grasshopper season! LOL!

      G!

      • GMan, I got an idea. Follow up from yesterday with LOI and Esom. Stay with me here:

        Wolves, packs and packs of wolves. We give em to the ants to clean up the grasshopper problem, allowing our deer and elk herds to recover. Since the ants have guns they can thin the wolves later as needed. Then they could come on out here and join me in a good ol deer/elk hunt and BBQ!

        The US Fish and Wildlife Service boys will stay gainfully employed transporting, tagging and monitoring the whole affair, thus keeping the Fed stimulated.

        This sounds like win win to me.

        I am definitely smiling real big all full of myself.
        Best Wishes
        JAC

  14. I skimmed thru the comments pretty quick – I don’t have time to read all of them right now.

    I agree with the social darwinism, although I would not apply it as harshly. Just a matter of degrees…

    For class warfare, I think you actually have it backwards:

    “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
    Warren Buffett, Nov 2006
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html

    This article is 2.5 years old, but I doubt he’s changed his mind. Also, some of the predictions from 2.5 years ago are interesting…

    • esomhillgazette says:

      Todd, I don’t think we do have it backwards. For sure not since Obama has taken office, and not in the 2 years since the Dems have taken control of Congress.

      “The Great Unifier” has not unified anything. Instead he is steadily making deeper and deeper divisions among the classes with the new taxes he wants to enact and by raising taxes on industry.

      Which class do you think would be hit hardest by Cap & Trade? By Sin Taxes? Obama is using new words to describe the same old tax and spend philosophy. Changing the name of a tax does not change who it affects.

      His “Bottom Up” economics is destined for disaster. His Entitlement “Reform” is even worse. Making a Program bigger and more encompassing is not reforming it. It is expanding and strengthening their hold on the public that receives them.

      • Everytime I post something, the first question is “where are your facts?”

        Are there facts to back up your comments?
        First, you’d have to answer your own questions.

        The poor will be impacted hardest by everything you list. The rich might pay more in actual dollars, but it won’t bother them at all.

        If we reduced taxes by 10% for everyone, how much would you save? The wealthy would save millions…
        If we cut taxes and cut services, who will that impact? The poor.
        Obama is keeping the poor “happy”, which is what the rich want (no riots!).

        My parents own a house and two condo’s – all three are in gated communities with their own security, fire, and emt service. They don’t give a crap about any of this, as long as the security people keep the riff-raff out…

        It’s not Republicans vs Democrats, conservative vs liberal, right vs left. It’s rich vs poor.

        And it’s not some big conspiracy where they’re all secretly working to do this and it just never leaks out. It’s just the way it is. And before you think that all the rich hate Obama, remember that the DOW was higher on the day that Bush took office, than on the day he left. And that’s not all Bush’s fault, my point is politicians come and go, and the rich tweak it just enough to make sure they always come out ahead.

        I have a REALLY LONG article about this half written, but haven’t had time to finish it. Do you want to see it?

        • USWeapon says:

          I for one certainly hope that you find time to finish that article. I am interested.

          On to your comments. I try my best to back up what I say. Were you looking for something from me or from Esom? And what facts do you want? It seemed that the comments Esom made you agreed with?

          You started to go down the path with me. It’s not republican vs. Democrat, and I thought “uh oh Todd is about to show me that he gets it!” But you fell down at the finish line. It’s not rich vs. poor either. Rich vs. poor is nothing more than part of the game.

          The game is government vs. citizen. Those in power vs. those they want to retain power over. You were so close, Todd.

          • I’m looking for clarification, facts/details, and answers from Eson to his questions. I’m not sure what his answers would be to his own questions, and I’m not sure I understand the questions completely.

            Your only issue is individual rights (government vs citizen). At least that’s the way it comes across to me.

            I think there’s more to it, especially related to class warfare. The rich control government to a large degree. They are willing to give up a certain amount of freedom to keep order and keep them safe. And allow them to continue making money.

            During the 2004 election, there was the 527 group “Swiftboat Veterans for Truth” that ran the adds against John Kerry. Why didn’t any of those types of groups run ads against Obama? There were plenty of issues they could have picked on?

            I think the rich felt that they had let things go to far with Bush and the Republicans, and that Obama would handle the economy better than McCain. They’re willing to let Obama and the Dems have some of their social agenda if it gets the economy back on track and pacifies the middle and lower class. My parents are in this class of the rich, and I talked to them and a lot of their friends last fall and winter, and that was the impression I got.

            What’s the difference between communism and capitalism? In communism, the government controls the means of production, becomes corrupt, and destroys society. In capitalism, private individuals control the means of production, become corrupt, and destroy society…

            That’s just a little joke, ok??

            • Todd, I find myself in agreement with many of your points. When you get a bit more seasoned and kicked around, you will be an awesome adversary.

              Your insight is a bit blinded by your perceptions of what is and is not unfair. Good!

              I love to fall back on Churchill, “A man who is not a liberal at 20 has no heart, a man who is not a conservative at 40 has no brain.”

              I do take exception to your description of Swift Boat Vets though. I don’t think they came from money or represented money. What they had was a deep and abiding hatred for a man they considered a fraud and a traitor. Those of my age all left someone we knew behind in Viet Nam. If you were my age you saw Kerry, with his fake JFK accent that he seems to have since lost, get up and lie to congress about “atrocities” that he claimed to have witnessed. I also got to watch him debate, on the Dick Cavitt Show, the author of that book John O’Neil back in ’70 or ’71. O’Neil was the next CO of Kerry’s Boat and heard the stories. Cavitt, Kerry and 95 % of the audience were against O’Neil but he kept his cool. Thirty-five years later he got pay back and as the man says, pay back is a bitch.

              Far be it for me, not a Viet-Nam vet, to question his purple hearts or Silver Star but having once filled in for the company clerk on leave, I know the power of A. a typewriter B. a bottle of Scotch and C. the CO’s signature on a rubber stamp.

              • I wasn’t implying good/bad about the Swiftboat ads. I was simply making a reference. But they needed a lot of money to run the ads.

                I was asking why there were no 527 groups making large ad buys against Obama?

              • USWeapon says:

                My guess is that most people didn’t have anything personal against Obama. While the swiftboat thing played out on the political stage because he was running for President, I think it was largely personal for those guys. They felt as though they knew him, and they weren’t about to let him attain the Presidency without all of the “facts” coming out.

                Overall, I think it has to be fairly personal or really bad for a conservative group to do what those guys did. It is a rarity to see the conservatives resort to those tactics.

              • Actually Todd there were.

                I believe it was the same group or their organizer who put together ads about Obama’s church and his other associations.

                McCain’s campaign went after them and help alient there effort. I think they pulled back because they could see they were not wanted.

                JAC

              • Yes, but the ads buys were later in the election and no where near the dollars spent on the Swiftboat ads.

                I think they were also afraid of the ‘racist’ card, which I feel shouldn’t be an issue, but the MSM may have focused on.

        • Todd, I’m sorry you misunderstood me. I don’t recall asking you where your facts were.

          You voiced your opinion on Class Warfare. I said that I thought you were mistaken. And I know that the rich were for Obama. Just look at how much money he raised from his superrich constituents like George Soros.

          Of course the poor will be hurt the worst. Of course the rich would benefit if taxes were cut by 10%. But the poor don’t pay taxes AT ALL! I know because, even though I work for my living, we still fall under the earned income tax level.

          This means we get money on our tax return that we didn’t pay in to begin with. Do I think it’s fair? Hell No! Do I turn free money down? Again, Hell No! Why? Because when I did have a good paying job I paid more than my share. And until the tax Laws change, that’s just the way it is.

          I do believe by the way that everyone, regardless of income, should pay taxes. I also believe the Government should be about 100 times smaller than it is. If ALL paid taxes, rich or poor, and Government was much smaller, everyone would benefit, not just a few at the top and a few at the bottom.

          That is why I do not see how Obama can claim to cut taxes for 95% of the people. That is a bald faced lie. Who will pay the most for C&P? The poor. The most for Sin taxes? The poor. How is that Cutting taxes? It’s not. It’s just renaming them and giving them a different structure.

          USW is right. It is Government against ALL the people. Obama is trying to give with one hand, and take with the other.

          I hope you have a great weekend Todd.

          • Esom,
            I guess you reponded last night while I was responding to US W.

            The “fact” thing wasn’t refering to you specifically. Being the minority opposition here, I sometimes feel like I’m being ganged up on. DON”T YOU ALL JUST FEEL SORRY FOR ME NOW?? YES, POOR ME 🙂

            Thanks for the clarification/explanation. I wasn’t sure if I understood your questions correctly.

            I remember your story about your Dad being a painter and so were you for a while. Then you went back to school to become an IT Tech. There was one part of the story I didn’t like – the part about the programmer at the admin office having a better education & skills than you do. While that might be technically true, you’ve already made the biggest part of the “jump”. The move from House Painter to IT Tech is much bigger than the move from IT Tech to IT Programmer/Developer.

            I’m an IT Architect, which is probably something similar to the programmer at the admin office. The path to move up the ladder in IT is mostly experience, classes for specific skills (which everyone should be doing no matter what level you’re at in IT), team work, and good/smart/hard work.

            Don’t sell yourself short!

            • USWeapon says:

              Sorry if you feel ganged up on. I can certainly understand why you would feel that way. At any point, I am willing to find evidence to back my claims should you need it. Thanks for being one of the big opposing viewpoints and taking us to task on the issues that matter. It is so important to have dissenting view in the conversation.

  15. Birdman says:

    I finished Atlas Shrugged this week and this quote will stay with me a long time: “I swear — by my life and my love of it — that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.” Individualism is important and it is OK to be selfish and look out for yourself instead of another man. Our education system, main stream media, Hollywood, etc. preaches that it’s evil to be selfish. Ayn Rand’s view on Objectivism is very thoughtful and something that others should take a look at.

    • USWeapon says:

      Birdman,

      Agreed, Ayn offered up a great read and great insight into society. One of the best books ever written.

  16. Excuse me for the interruption…
    Now I just heard on Fox news that a 13 year old with cancer is being forced to undergo Chemo therapy http://www.fox8.com/wjw-news-chemotherapy-ruling-story,0,3377127.story. Now to the average person this would be no biggy but, the Missouri-based religious group believes (in which he belongs)in natural healing methods advocated by some American Indians and wanted to choose an alternative medicine opposed to Chemo radiation. To bad, said Big Brother, “you will undergo Chemo because I said so and if you want to continue to fight, Child Protective Services will take him and he will still undergo Chemo and we will throw your asses in jail for neglect”. This is what they told the parents of the child just without the cussing! Wow, its getting serious, parents are losing their rights! Am I just looking way too deep into this?

    • If the parents suddenly decided to stop feeding their child would you also say it was within the parents right to do this? Would you allow the child to starve? If the alternative treatments had medical studies proving their effectiveness I would agree with you, unfortunately it looks like it does not. How would you feel if you had cancer and wanted chemo but your insurance company said instead “Sorry we are not paying for your chemo we think rubbing yourself with some magic stones we found is much more effective”? I would hate to be that kid if the parents get their way. I remember reading about parents who let their 4 year old daughter die from an infection because they believed faith would heal her, were the parents right to do this?

      • Bob,
        I don’t know about the other case you are referring to but I think if the the parents and the child feel that there are alternative medicines to treat him and they feel they will work, it is upon there discretion to make this choice not a judge, you or I. See, this is where I have a problem with Big Brother. Trying to play God and trying to tell us what to do, when to do it, how to do it, and why you should do it. If the parents of this child decided they wanted to use alternative medicines and the child died, then that will be on their hands and for God to decide there fate, not us. If it was my child, I would look at all of the treatments both alternative and modern and make a decision based on what I feel is effective for my child. I don’t belong to a religious group that condones modern medicine but I do believe in alternative drugs as well. I have to family members die of cancer even doing CHEMO. I’ll never forget my great aunt telling me “this makes my body feel worse than just with the cancer. I hope I get better soon because I don’t know how much more I can take”. She was always weak, losing weight..she was never herself again. I just don’t think it should be the choice of the state or Big Brother to determine your medical needs; that should be between you and your physician. God gave us free-will, given us the freedom to choose what we want, whether right or wrong. I understand where you are coming from though. Well Big Brother is trying to make it mandatory to take a 3-in-1 flu shot this fall and this is known to cause brain damage or death…will you take it? If you didn’t want to and Big Brother say, you have to or you will go to jail, how will you feel then? Probably just like this family. That’s my point.

        • Also, what the media is not covering about this case is that the child did undergo Chemo for one day. After the Chemo he was hospitialized for 11 days and got a huge blood clot under his arm. I just feel that I should have the right to make the choice of my child health and healthcare. I agree to disagree and digress.

  17. Ok…you can’t get the adults to believe in global warming and the importance of being Green lets corrupt the children’s mind. A new law is being negotiated and I don’t think anyone has heard of it…HR 3036 “No Child Left Inside Act” of 2009. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-3036. The “No Child Left Inside Act” would spend $500M teaching ‘Environmental Literacy’ starting in Kindergarten. The bill has passed the House and now is in the Senate. $5M remind you we are not borrowing anymore, we are just printing money…can anyone say INFLATION!

  18. Another example of us Marching towards Martial Law. They says is for our protection, they are just training…keep believing everything you are told if you want too. The March to Socialism will be driven by Martial Law.

    http://www.infowars.com/infowars-credited-with-exposing-illegal-tennessee-checkpoint/

    And another http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2009/05/military_to_use_burton_as_a_tr.html

    And another
    http://www.chicoer.com/ci_12295783?source=rss

    Also google:
    PDD 51
    Urban Warfare in US

    It’s getting serious people!

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