The Argument For Action…

The other day, a couple of you offered up the thought that “the time for talk is over. The time for action is now.” I took the time to address it on a very minimal level, with the promise of dedicating a post to it tonight. So I am going to talk about what we are doing here. I am also going to discuss what other folks are doing and my thoughts on that. And most important, I am going to discuss a bit of the “doomsday” feeling that I see from some of the folks here, and why I think it is a little bit of an overreaction. There is a potential for trouble, for sure. But the political reality in America is akin to blaming Iran for acquiring a nuclear weapon instead of acknowledging that we wouldn’t have to care if we hadn’t done things to make them hate us in the first place. The problem lies in the system, not the Democrats. I will lead with the increasing feeling that doomsday is just around the corner…

 

Watching his followers is like a bad Illuminati Movie!

Watching his followers is like a bad Illuminati Movie!

I know that some of you feel like this is the apocalypse. I don’t think that it is. I have seen Obama called the anti-christ, and the man that is going to ruin America if we don’t stop him now. I don’t think that he is. He is a massive personality that is being treated like a cult leader, in my  opinion. We need to stop here for a second and think about the reality of this situation in a logical and well thought out way. First, the apocalypse. This is not it. What we are seeing is the natural and somewhat regular cycle of progressive reform versus conservative fiscal policy. While I agree that progressive reform is flawed in its thinking, we are not seeing the end of our country or anything that dramatic. This is not the end of America. The current administration has moved with great speed in implementing reforms as they see fit. And I imagine that they will continue to do so. They believe that they have a mandate from the people, and they believe that they are implementing what the people want.

It will not “end” America. That is not to say that America won’t “end” at some point, but the current administration is not going to be the one great cause of that. We have to separate our emotion from our reason here. They are spending massively. That is not good. They are implementing social programs that resemble socialism. That is not good. The are intruding into private industry in ways that resemble fascism. That is also not good. But these things are not fatal in and of themselves. They are what happens regularly in our system of cyclical power. And they will fail. They will fail because they are not based in sound principle, but instead on emotion and flawed reasoning. America will go on despite what this administration does. It always has. And we are in this situation because of the conditions prior to Barack Obama. He is the result of 50 years or more of social engineering. The programs of FDR were far more reaching than anything we have seen from this administration, at least thus far. 

America will change. And that is natural. We have lived well beyond our means for far too long. As a result we find ourselves in an economic crisis. Despite the pundits who wish to lay this problem at the feet of the Republicans or at the feet of the Democrats, the reality is that we must lay the blame at the feet of ourselves. We were not fiscally responsible, we lived beyond our means, and we are now seeing the result of that. Government did little more than enact programs and policies that made it possible for us to do so. Government does not make someone live off of welfare. Government provides the opportunity for someone to be able to. Government’s mistake is not in trying to find a way to take care of people, it is in choosing the easier route to deal with where we are. 

stupid-voterIt is far easier to find a way to deal with the situation that we find ourselves in (what government is doing) than it is to find the root of what put us here, and takes steps to change that root (what government is not  and has no intention of doing). I will address this topic more in a post later this week. The point is that this administration is not going to succeed in “destroying America” in the way that many believe. They are a phase, much like bell bottoms. People will realize that it doesn’t look so good and eventually move back towards the right. In the mean time, the administration is going to do things that we don’t like. They are going to do things that we know are not logical. We cannot stop this. You say to me that we have to “act now before it is too late”. I say to you, we are well past that point, my friends. You are far too late to think you can stop this movement by force. 

I know that action is what is called for by many people. America is a country of “doers”. Here is the problem. While you have been out doing for yourself (a righteous endeavor!), there are those of a different philosophy that have been out “doing” for 50 years. And this is the result of their action. The mistake is to think that we can suddenly jump up and realize what has happened and reverse this quickly or through force. There are a few problems with thinking that we can. 

Kid Flexing Against SoldiersFirst, I understand the panic. I hope that you can understand that I do not panic. My life experiences taught me to see the situation and figure out how to react without panic. Keep a level head and plan a course of action. That is what I am doing now. It sounds like some of you want to put yourselves out there and challenge the United States Government. I warn you, that is suicide. You cannot hope to beat them. They are ALL aligned against you, regardless of party affiliation or position. The United States Government is the most powerful in the world. They have brought many countries to their knees, as many proud veterans have discussed. And yet there is a belief that a “grass roots campaign” will somehow do what no country or army in history has done, bring the American government to its knees. Bend the American government’s will to doing what you say. Understand this: They can take your money. They can take your property. And they can take your life. And they are willing to do all three if you challenge them in the wrong way. Action is good. Hasty action will not be. 

Second, the United States government IS NOT THE PROBLEM right now. What we are seeing from government is a consequence of the real problem. The problem is the United States citizen. They are apathetic. They have their head in the sand. They are too busy to be bothered to do what is necessary to keep government under control. They have been this way for a very long time. As a result government has been able to grow to unprecedented size and scope and power. They are uneducated (politically). They are unable to think critically. They have a mindset that is completely flawed in demanding entitlements, demanding equal outcomes, and clinging to 100 years of social engineering that made them this way. Until they have an “AHA! moment”, this will not change. They do not see individual freedom and liberty in the same way that you and I do. That is where the change must occur. Everything we see today stems from this. Not the other way around. Understand this, and you will see why action is called for, but not the type that some are espousing. 

 

Don't Anyone Take It Personally! Just Kidding!

Don't Anyone Take It Personally! Just Kidding!

Finally, I will address the following claims:

 

  1. What we all have been doing on this site is good, yet I believe that we have talked the problems to death and now it is time for action. Having continuous discussions on philosophy ad infitum is useless.
  2. We can discuss philosophical ends and the means to achieve those ends until hell freezes over, but if we do not actually DO something all we have done is waste time listening to ourselves talk. Is that so hard for your intellectual minds to understand?
  3. I ask you this BF, USW, and JAC; with all due respect, what have YOU done to engage in the current government system to try to effect change? To lead the citizens? Been elected to office? Started a group that espouses your principles and built a platform on which to make your local or state government sit up and take notice? Initiated a voter referendum drive?
  4. And don’t dare say that GA or myself or anyone else will fail by engaging. Because I have already got wins under my belt.

Points 1 and 2: Painful to hear. And disappointing. Discussions are not useless. They are necessary. If we are going to move forward, we had better do so with a plan that is going to work. Speed is not nearly as necessary as quality. There are some things that we can be doing, and I believe that we are. But that does not mean that the discussions stop. There is not a stopping point for discussion. It must continue. I will not dedicate my time and energy to a failed plan, not if I can avoid it. And that means whatever action I take will be done so with the proper reasoning and logic applied prior to action. It does no good to rush the room, get gunned down, and say “damn, I should have thought this out better first”. At that point you are done, and you have failed.

My “intellectual mind” understands a lot of things, including your being antsy to get to work on the part of the plan that uses the talents that you have in spades. As I have said, there are actions we can and should be doing now. They do not include a direct assault on government. That is not only a losing proposition, it will not get us the change that we are looking for. If there is action you want us to take, speak it out loud. Let’s talk about it. And let’s do so with reason, so that if we decide to put efforts behind a plan, it is the right one to expend our limited resources on. For example, the talk of petitions to repeal the 16th Amendment are great in theory, but I am not yet convinced that even a successful campaign to do so would be more than a slight speed bump for government as it exists. We should figure that answer out before we go sinking millions of dollars and millions of man hours into attempting that change, should we not? 

Miracle LogicI hear much disgust with the current administration and the speed at which they operate. We see the flaws in their plans and take great pleasure in pointing out that they are so eager to act quickly, that they miss the realities that will cause their plans to unravel. In a rush to “act” they implement cap and trade. In a rush to “act” they implement TARP. In a rush to “act” we get the stimulus bill. In a rush to “act” they announce closing Gitmo with no plans for how. Let us not be so eager to act that we make the same mistakes. Tell me your plan. We can discuss it. We can dissect it. And we can figure out WHETHER IT WILL WORK. If you sent me a plan on Saturday and I posted it on Sunday, I bet we would have it dissected and have the answer to that question by Thursday. If that is “too long” to wait, then I submit you don’t have time to implement it anyway. 

Point 3: I cannot speak for BF or JAC. I can guess that for you to ask those questions of BF, you are doing so rhetorically, because we can all ascertain the answer to that. His philosophy and belief would not align with engaging government in any way. After all, doing so would be acknowledging that they have authority over him (His words, not mine). As for me, I have not sat idly by. I attended the Tea Parties. I rallied people to that cause on this very site. I have met with several different community leaders in the first steps towards being a more integral part of the local political landscape. I am supporting and offering my service and labor to the campaign of folks who are running for local offices (specifically revolution2010 right now). I have even offered to do whatever I can to help the very person who asked this question of me. The only way that I can view this statement is that you believe that I am sitting on my ass because I am not taking the action that you deem I should take. I can appreciate your thoughts. But the action that is right for you, is not necessarily right for me. I have in no way slandered or belittled your efforts. I would appreciate reciprocal consideration. 

To MadMom specifically: I am proud to call you a friend. I am more than proud of the efforts that you are making in Rhode Island to get things back on track. You know I feel this way because I have said so to you several times. I am all for “getting off my ass”. I will support you because I believe in what you are doing. What I am doing is something different. It is a different attack on the same thing. Our actions, the two of us, are two different prongs of the same attack. Yours is focused on the short term. It works to stop the madness that is happening right now, so that when we get this turned around, we can fix the issues we face. Mine, at least on this site, is more focused on the longer term. It changes the culture to one where your version of a better future is possible. I will 100% do anything that I can to support you and your prong of attack because I see the necessity of what you are doing. I need that level of support from you as well, because your prong of attack will be all for naught if we cannot change the political culture and American mindset that will follow your success. 

One of the questions was “[Have you] Started a group that espouses your principles and built a platform on which to make your local or state government sit up and take notice?”. What exactly is this website if not exactly that. I started this site (group) and we are refining our principles and building a platform. In the end, if we do this right, we will have a group that espouses the principles and has a plan for how we can make the local and state governments sit up and take notice. And in undertaking this task with many hours a day dedicated to it, I am attempting impact not just my local communities but the communities of every person reading on this site. A national effort to impact local politics. It seems that the issue with me is that the process is not being undertaken at the speed with which some feel it should. To which I respond that this is not easy. Getting ourselves to a solid and principled base is tough. Failing to do so, however, would be disastrous.

never-underestimate-28015-stupidpeoplePoint 4: I don’t think that is a fair assessment of what I said. What I said is that if he chooses to try to face government head on, he will fail. And I stand by that statement. Anyone who believes that they are going to march into Washington and take it by storm is both naive and prone to a level of wishful thinking that is dangerous to their well being. I did not say that by engaging, you will fail. I said if we rush into a headfirst battle with the federal government, we will fail. Tell me where I am wrong. Only 8 months ago the largest opposition party in the nation (The Republican Party) engaged against this administration in a battle for the public support. And they got their ass handed to them. Do not make light of that. Do not fail to learn from that. The public opinion has not changed. We have a small percentage of people with their eyes open enough to see what we see. Do not fool yourself into thinking that if we had a “do-over” election tomorrow, that the result would change. 

President Obama has a 60%+ approval rating. Of the remaining 40%, we may have 20% of them prepared to take up the cause. That equates to roughly 8% of the population. And that means that we must be smart about where and how we “engage”. I am not a fool. And I am not someone who merely sits on my ass and has philosophical discussions. What I am is someone who will pick the right times and spots to make my shots count. You ask me to come up with a plan. You say to me “you three intellectuals need to get off your ass and tell us what to do to fix this”. And then when I say what I think, you tell me I am a fool. 

Tough LoveBut make no bones about it, and I want this to be clear to anyone who comes on to my site and tells me what must be done:

I do not pull punches… at all. You all know this about me. If you tell me a plan, I will break that plan down and give it the best evaluation that I can give. If I find the plan to be flawed, if I find it to be not set up with the proper odds for success, I will tell you that it will fail. I do not care if it hurts your feelings and I do not care if it means that you think I am sitting on my ass and not willing to act. I see it as tough love, if you will. I will not be the one you point back to and say “why did you not tell me that this would fail?”. It is not an insult when I say what I think, I am not trying to tear anyone down. And I do not pretend that I cannot be wrong in what I say. But I will be honest. If you want me to change my mind and change my opinion on what I have said, it rests on you to show me why I am wrong. Do so, and I will change my mind. I will follow logic 100% of the time. As BlackFlag has noted about me, that is my history. It would be illogical to do anything else. 

So now I open it up for discussion. I am interested in what everyone has to say about this subject. There are different perspectives and realities for every single person that frequents this site. I am interested in learning about them. I am willing to hear your arguments against what I have laid out here. And I am willing to debate this as long as it takes to reach a point where we are at least seeing eye to eye. It does no good to insult one another. We, every person on this site, liberals and conservatives and everywhere else on the scale, are here for a reason. We are not happy with how things are. Some are less happy than others. But we are all on the same side here, whether we want to realize it or not. We can tear each other apart because we each feel our path forward is the best one. The Libertarians have given us a great example of where that gets us. Or we can find common ground through dialogue and find a way to support each other’s efforts. I suggest the latter.

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Comments

  1. Oooo, you’re gonna catch it with this posting, USW! 🙂
    Just kidding. I agree with you. The problem is with the American voter. Until they get their collective heads back into the fresh air, nothing will change. What do you think of my 5 June 3:45 pm posting? It isn’t a complete plan, but might make a good starting point, IMHO……

  2. TexasChem says:

    I believe that Americans have become accustomed to the mentality of “I want it now, I get it now.” Our culture has developed our mindset into a beast with an insatiable hunger for instant gratification without sacrifice.This hunger has those that want change with the current administration flustered and floundering in the sand as the tide rolls out.

    I am as guilty as the next person with having this mentality.As I have become aware of it I am consciously making an effort to logically think through the problems we are facing and attempt a patient thought out solution to them.I work 48 to 84 hours a week depending on my units needs with overtime so I always seem to feel that I do not contribute nearly enough time towards doing what needs to be done to get our nation back on track.

    I agree with you US in that I believe the current trend towards progressive reform versus conservative fiscal policy will turn around as the current administrations plans fail.This has seemed to be a cyclic trend in the history of America.As nationalism bolsters and grows (helped by the failed policies)Americans will move away from the socialist mindset.

    One item that continues to worry me though is that I can’t seem to let go of a sinking feeling of looming disaster.There is great potential for economic collapse because of these policies. I am unsure as to whether our country will be able to withstand the backlash from them if the policies and social “reform” continue at the speed in which they are being enacted.It is almost as if this is their intended purpose.

    The solution to our problems with government is to have HONEST people elected into office with the wellbeing of the American public first and foremost on their agenda.Men and women not afraid to take a stand for what is just and moral.Men and women that the public could feel proud of.Folks that you could admire and look up to for the good they promote in others as they tackle the governments agendas; with positive outcomes for the citizens they represent.

    I know that sounds like a pipe dream but if we can overcome the apathetic nature of our fellow Americans I feel as if it could be done.Good and Evil/Right and Wrong do exist in our world.How to enhance one over the other is what needs to be focused upon in society by some means.

    • TexasChem says:

      I want to add that I have immensely enjoyed reading the articles, thoughts and ideas that have been posted in these blogs and am grateful for having been exposed to this community.I applaude each and every one of you and hope that somehow we can reach the rest of the nation with our type of thoughtful discussions and educate others with the principles being shown here to promote American government to evolve into being what it has the potential to become.

    • Naten53 says:

      Texaschem your first paragraph reminds me of a injury lawyer commercial where I live.

      It is basically advertising to people that already have an injury settlement that is based on payments over a long period of time. The catch phrase is “It’s my money, and I want it NOW!” The ad is for restructuing the long term payments into a lump sum.

  3. I don’t know if this will sound right or not, but here goes anyway . . .

    No, this particular administration will not “end” this nation. What we see now is the culmination of the preparation of generations to be apathetic toward our form of government. I first experienced it in my youth when I first heard the statement that in a country of almost two hundred million people how do we expect to believe that our single vote counts. I see this same attitude in Black Flags philosophy of simply ignoring the government and it will go away. We all know that in the history of mankind government has never just gone away, it will always be there in some shape or form.

    What I have derived from all this discussion on philosophy – and I admit that I have not read all through it, it actually lost my interest in the first installment – is that the three of you somehow have come to the idea that we need to scrap this form of government and come up with a new one. Please correct me if I am wrong on that, and I do hope I am wrong. Those men who founded this nation and derived this form of government were the Einsteins of their day, as far as I am concerned. They had a lot more going against them than for them – for instance, less than 10% of the population were literate and the rest just wanted to be left alone. The high tech of the day was the hand operated printing press and most written copies of anything was done by scribes. I look at it as nothing short of a miracle that they got the support that they actually did get in the end. With all that against them, and I am sure that there is much more than I covered in this small space, they actually accomplished something as astronomical as creating a fresh new form of government that still stands to this day, although it is now standing on very wobbly legs indeed.

    My call to action is nothing more than getting people out to get the word out about what WE as individuals can do to regain our freedoms that have been chipped away at over the past hundred years or so. I constantly hear of talk that the “South” is again rising – that there are people out there in high places that want to break this country up into three, four or five separate countries. Texas, Montana, Tennessee and Georgia are some of the states that have thought of succession and have actually discussed the same among the states legislators. This is nothing but notional suicide in my eyes. I am a firm believer in the united we stand and divided we fall principle. In order for our nation to survive, we MUST stick together. In order to do that we need to educate the masses in the original form of our nation.

    To accomplish that little goal, we need to get the political climate to change – THAT will not happen until someone, or a whole bunch of someones, legally force our elected officials to convene a constitutional congress with the express purpose of putting forth amendments to change the way the government is funded and what they can do with those funds. That can be accomplished by the petition method in each of the states. If each state, by a voting majority, calls for a constitutional convention then by law the government has no choice but to comply.

    JAC understands how that works much more than I do. BF understands what it takes to get people involved. You understand organizational control and information distribution. And I am sure that there are many others out there who would be more than willing to work on a voluntary basis to get organizations going in their individual states and communities. All “We The People” need is some intelligent people to get this organized and get the ball rolling.

    I do believe that my “anger”, if you will, is justified. We can no longer sit idly by and let the world roll on. If we want our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren to enjoy any semblance of the freedom that the forefathers of this nation intended us to have then WE of this generation must stand up and be counted. Plodding along trying to figure out a plan of action is not what to do. We were given those tools by the framers of our constitution a long time ago, but if we do not use them they will be whittled down to nothing and not just by this administration either – the coming administrations will be much worse than this one or any previous ones if we do nothing now. The job of bringing this nation back to what it was intended to be will only get harder, exponentially so, if we do nothing now.

    Now, I will set back and let everyone dissect this idea. If this is a plan, then take it apart and see what is wrong with it.

    One last question – How do we expect to get people on our side if we do not even try to get organized to get the word out? I have discovered on the short time I have been on the Internet that not everyone reads our sites . . . What would you have us do about that?

    • G.A., I can understand your frustrations, and fears. There are alot of blogs out there discussing this very issue. I did a little search and found this site they may interest everyone.

      G!

      http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/

      • Thank you for the link. Interesting site, indeed. I have placed their video on my website for all to see.

        At least somebody is out there trying to everyone on track and in the same boat.

        I will keep in touch with those folks.

    • Black Flag says:

      GA,

      It took years for Gandhi to figure out the problem.

      Once he became perfectly clear about what moral action he would take to change the history of his people – only then did he act.

      He acted alone – he did not concern himself with anyone else – he did not plaster billboards or make radio announcements.

      He wrote a letter to the Governor to explain exactly what he would do.

      Then he, by himself, went about doing it.

      By the fact of his own will, the People followed him – he did not have to advertise at all.

      By the end of his march, hundreds of thousands surrounded him and millions were listening – and the Empire was shaking.

      The key:
      A firm, strong, moral basis of action.

      The rest is easy.

      • Well, maybe not easy . . .

        • Black Flag says:

          Very easy – compared to the work one has to do on their mind.

          Where the mind leads, the body will follow. Therefore, manage your mind FIRST.

      • This is the United States of America . . . Not Mahatma Gandhi’s India.

        We have not yet reached the point of desperation that India was in in Gandhi’s time.

        We have the tools in place to prevent that level of desperation from ever being achieved.

        Those tools have been in place since the birth of this nation.

        All we have to do is use them as they were intended for us to use.

        Unless, of course, we just continue to ignore our government.

        Then, eventually, we will no longer be the United States of America.

        Would that make you happy?

        • Black Flag says:

          People and principles are universal.

          Miss the lessons – and you gravely risk repeating the same futile path.

          You last statements reflect the common confusion – that a Nation is its Government.

          Until that notion is dispelled, no real change can happen

        • Alan F. says:

          Exactly. The situation in India at that time was in akin to that of the colonies in 1770 and certainly not America 2009. Were it not for the British playing “fast`n loose” with taxation and corporate agriculture, no Champaran famine problems. Were it not for British racism making its presence felt across India in the Amritsar Massacre, Ghandi is missing an important catalyst too. Nothing mobilizes a populas like starvation and mass murder. You should well remember yourselves as 9/11 happened not so long ago.

          There could be a man/woman, lived and died, who had an even better message and not the circumstance which has historically proven itself all too necessary.

          • Black Flag says:

            It is a case for moral action – not a dissertation about tactics.

            Unless you understand the moral basis of what you want to accomplish, you will change nothing (and most likely, make it a whole lot worse).

            • Alan F. says:

              I wasn’t speaking of merely tactics. That his personal beliefs were laudable goes without saying but his passing them over to the people of India was what they were ready to accept because of their situation. You can always get “the people” behind a position, noble or not, if their circumstance opens them up to such. No matter how enlightened you may be, if others are not of the state of mind necessary to accept what you extol, you’re just talking. Their willingness to accept “one hand clapping” and alter their present circumstance is all too well tied to the now.

              To bring the notion home, something as easily digested as saving for retirement must be sweetened with tax breaks and constant reminders of looking out for one’s self and mate. How pathetic is that? Very but that makes it no less a reality.

              You want to accomplish something, you have merely to do something. You want to accomplish something big, circumstance must afford you the conditions necessary for something big to be accomplished. Its always been circumstance-catalyst-result where “us the people” are concerned. You believe, as I see it, the man/woman can force “change” (the word sure has lost its luster) upon society. As I see it the circumstance has to exist for any grand change to occur, man withstanding. I don’t see president Obama as any “great” anything but the lucky recipient of the windfall circumstance had provided. It could easily be Hillary Clinton behind the desk had the super delegates thought they could have gotten more out of her.

              • Black Flag says:

                Alan,

                As I said below – concern yourself not at all with Masses nor the Majority.

                They do not matter. They are mindless, thoughtless, and hold no principle they can speak of.

                I don’t worry at all what the majority think or do. They are an elephant with a ant’s brain.

                All great change started with one thought and one person.

                But the thinking comes first.

                The repeated mantra:
                What moral basis are you establishing the actions you want to undertake?

  4. In interesting read that touches on the problem:

  5. I don’t what happened above…..

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3951

  6. I was at work last week, the usual lunchtime political bitch session. One of the guys said, “You guys have a lot of complaints, but what is the solution?” This got me thinking about what we can do to fight this problem.

    I like the idea of the GOOOH, or encouraging everyone to fire all the incumbents. Unfortunately, some of the people doing the most damage keep getting re-elected by uninformed voters.

    I guess a lot of people think that what’s going on in DC is OK. That is frightening. Obviously violence is not the answer. I know it’s frustrating to feel powerless, but we need a good plan and a lot more people who agree that we are headed in the wrong direction.

    Try to remember how long it took for us to get here, and understand it can’t be fixed overnight. We have some good people here with some good ideas. Don’t give up!!

    • I was raised by a single Mother – she taught all of us to not complain about something without first thinking of a solution to the problem, I suppose that is why I have problems with folks sitting around complaining without looking to fix what is wrong.

  7. In my opinion US is correct. To move qickly forward without reasoning of unintentional consequences is exactly what got us where we are at.

    I submit that the “plan” is already in place. Tea Parties. The catch to the Tea Parties is that we need to continue efforts in this area. It HAS to grow with every event. By grow, I mean participation has to increase. In my opinion, that is the only way that the media and elected officials will take notice. The faster the growth, the more attention it will garner.

    But while the Tea Parties are an excellent beginning, we must at the same time draw attention to the future. What happens when this movement is successful, if it even is. There must be a way devised to increase participation in government and it must be sustainable.

    As US pointed out, this move to a more socialistic government has been well over 50 years in the making. To think that it can be changed with any speed is naive to say the least. Our institutions of higher learning…and I use that term loosely, have been infiltrated/taken over with the “Progressive” thinking and will take decades to reverse that if it can even be done.

    I hold out hope that things will change for the better. My daughter and granddaughter’s future depend on it. It will be a slow extremely tough row to hoe, but it is doable.

    I actually thing the present POTUS is doing us a favor. By moving with such speed, he has shined a spotlight on the intentions of government that only the blind cannot see. He is providing a rallying point, and that my friends is a necessity if we are to right this listing ship.

    • If TEA Parties are the plan, what are the specifics of the plan? Are taxes the only problem? I think not.

      Do I think that the current direction can be altered? No. The plan for socialization has been in effect for years and is now taking another big step and stop it you won’t. Slow it down, maybe you might. As long as a majority of the people want to live off the gains of others it will continue. Since almost 50% of the population does not pay taxes there is no reason for these people to have any concern except for themselves. Until America goes bankrupt it will continue on the road to Socialism, Facism, Communism, etc. Capitalism has produced the most successful country and it is sad to see it deteriorating so quickly.

      The book ‘Atlas Shrugged’, written in 1957 shows what is happening and will happen It gives ways to make it happen faster. Soon, I think that many of the producers will see that the only way out is to escape. Maybe BF has already done so.

      Below is my list of things Obama has done and wants to do that I find wrong. Let me know what you would add or take away.

      • Obama, YOU SCARE ME

        Because you have:

        never run a company or met a payroll

        no military experience

        always blamed the past administration

        bowed (showing subservience) to a Muslim King

        aligned yourself with radical extremists who hate America

        refused to publicly denounce your radical friends

        and continue to, apologize ‘for America’ to foreigners

        nationalized the largest banks

        used extortion tactics against banks and corporations

        nationalized most of the US auto business

        fired the president of a private company

        told private companies what they should pay employees

        thrown out valid contracts

        restructured the bankruptcy procedures

        the Democrats and the media hypnotized into giving you a free pass

        demonized, and want to silence, the Conservative commentators

        authorized federal funds for abortion

        shown you want to be president of the world

        Because you want:

        to take over state rights

        judicial activism (liberal only)

        to legalize illegal immigrants

        to Socialize our health care system

        to allow seniors to die to reduce health care costs

        to take from those who do and give to those who won’t

        to ignore some of our energy sources (oil, coal, nuclear power)

        to ‘redistribute wealth’

        to tax, those who pay taxes, until the blood runs clear

        a larger government

        to bankrupt America (both fiscally and morally)

        • He scares me too. I don’t like being scared…in fact it makes me want to be involved.

        • Do you have anything to back up this list? How do you know Obama actually wants to do these things?

          I see many things that are outright false, and the rest are mostly opinion or rhetoric.

          • Let me know those you find to be false.

            Let me know those you find only to be rhetoric.

            Then I can address them as to your category.

            • It’s your list – how did you come up with it? If it’s based on facts, then you should have the information readily available.

              Am I suppose to assume your points are correct, and have to prove each one false?

              False:
              always blamed the past administration
              nationalized the largest banks
              nationalized most of the US auto business
              fired the president of a private company
              the Democrats and the media hypnotized into giving you a free pass
              shown you want to be president of the world

              to Socialize our health care system
              to allow seniors to die to reduce health care costs
              to take from those who do and give to those who won’t

              And my personal favorite (I must have missed this in the campaign literature):
              to bankrupt America (both fiscally and morally)

              Most of the others are rhetoric.

              • Nationalized the largest banks.

                Until the banks, that took (in some cases were forced to take) TARP
                funds are allowed to repay the TARP money they are being controlled by the federal government. That is nationalization.

                Nationalized most of the US auto business:

                The US auto business consists of Ford, GM and Chrysler. GM and Chrysler add up to most. When ever a company is being controlled by the Federal government you have nationalization. Since GM and Chrysler are in government controlled bankruptcy they are in a nationalized state. After the bankruptcies are complete, the Federal government will hold substantial shares of stock of both companies. Until that stock is sold and the monies returned to the Treasury or the stock is passed on to the taxpayers, it will be in government control.

                to allow seniors to die to reduce health care costs: the plan is to create a health care system that covers everyone and then reduce the costs significantly. The highest costs are for participants are in their final years. To reduce the costs:the services, to seniors, must be limited which will kill them before their time.

                What do you call the current situation for the banks that have received TARP.

                What do you call the current situation for GM and Chrysler.

                How do you see the costs for Health Care being substantially reduced.

                More soon.

              • “nationalized the largest banks”
                Bush nationalized the banks.

                “nationalized most of the US auto business”
                GM & Chrysler make up about 30% of US auto market. That doesn’t qualify as “most” to me. The auto companies asked for a bailout, and the US government stepped in to help before Obama took office. I don’t see that as Obama nationalizing the US auto business.

                “to allow seniors to die to reduce health care costs”
                Your augment here is quite a stretch and based on opinion, not fact.

                Answers to your questions:

                “What do you call the current situation for the banks that have received TARP.”
                Self-inflicted

                “What do you call the current situation for GM and Chrysler.”
                Self-inflicted

                “How do you see the costs for Health Care being substantially reduced.”
                Efficiencies thru technology to lower the cost of services and stop unnecessary tests & treatments.
                Preventative care to reduce the number of ER visits.
                Currently, those who have health insurance are paying high premiums to cover the costs of those who do not have health insurance.
                A better system will improve care and lower costs for everyone.

              • Todd said
                June 8, 2009 at 2:49 pm
                “nationalized the largest banks”
                Bush nationalized the banks.

                I think Bush was wrong as well. Obama could have stopped it and still could but has not yet

                “nationalized most of the US auto business”

                GM & Chrysler make up about 30% of US auto market. That doesn’t qualify as “most” to me.

                I do not include the foreign auto companies as part of the US market because they went to their own countries if a bailout was needed. Obama would not dare do to the foreign companies what he did to GM and Chrysler.

                The auto companies asked for a bailout, and the US government stepped in to help before Obama took office. I don’t see that as Obama nationalizing the US auto business.

                Bush made a loan. Obama should have let them go through the normal bankruptcy procedures.

                “to allow seniors to die to reduce health care costs”

                Your augment here is quite a stretch and based on opinion, not fact.

                You are correct, it is my opinion that it will become a fact.

                Answers to your questions:

                “What do you call the current situation for the banks that have received TARP.”
                Self-inflicted

                insufficient answer

                “What do you call the current situation for GM and Chrysler.”

                insufficient answer

                “How do you see the costs for Health Care being substantially reduced.”

                Efficiencies thru technology to lower the cost of services and stop unnecessary tests & treatments.
                Preventative care to reduce the number of ER visits.

                I agree that there may be many unnecessary tests and treatments but it has not been done for me in the last three years as I have been treated for two forms of cancer. According to the doctors that I have spoken to, this occurs because of all of the lawsuits. I am ambivalent on capping law suits.

                Currently, those who have health insurance are paying high premiums to cover the costs of those who do not have health insurance.
                A better system will improve care and lower costs for everyone.

                A problem with your answer here is: that the costs will not go down when everyone is covered because a substantial percentage of those who will be covered will not be able to pay. They will continue to be covered by Medicare and we will just be paying in a different way.

                Health insurance plan rates are not calculated based on those outside the plan.

              • “I think Bush was wrong as well. Obama could have stopped it and still could but has not yet”

                Yes, but that was not the point in your original list.

                “I do not include the foreign auto companies as part of the US market because they went to their own countries if a bailout was needed. Obama would not dare do to the foreign companies what he did to GM and Chrysler.”

                But foreign companies are part of the US auto business. Toyota, Honda, and most others manufacture vehicles in the US.

                “Bush made a loan. Obama should have let them go through the normal bankruptcy procedures.”

                Yes, but that was not the point in your original list.

                Answers to your questions:
                “What do you call the current situation for the banks that have received TARP.”
                Self-inflicted
                insufficient answer

                Who decided you get to determine right and wrong answers??? 🙂

                I guess I don’t understand the question. Explain? Or what’s your answer?

                “What do you call the current situation for GM and Chrysler.”
                Self-inflicted
                insufficient answer

                Same as above! 🙂

                “this occurs because of all of the lawsuits. I am ambivalent on capping law suits.”

                I agree lawsuits cause unnecessary tests and raise costs.

                “A problem with your answer here is: that the costs will not go down when everyone is covered because a substantial percentage of those who will be covered will not be able to pay. They will continue to be covered by Medicare and we will just be paying in a different way.”

                The idea is if they have coverage, they will get preventative care and reduce the overall cost.

                “Health insurance plan rates are not calculated based on those outside the plan.”

                Correct – but when a hospital has many patients that do not pay, the hospital raises what it charges those who do pay, so the insurance companies have to pay more, so the premiums go up for those with insurance.

                Are you going to respond to the other points in my original list above? 😉

              • Todd, you said “Preventative care to reduce the number of ER visits.”

                The problem with this portion is that if everyone participated in preventative care, it would increase the cost and not reduce it.

              • It would increase the total cost of preventative care, but it would reduce the total cost of ER care by a greater amount.

      • The Tea parties are in fact not only about taxes being too high. They are also about fiscal responsibility, political accountability, and the destruction of our constitution. Having a defeatist attitude going in will only embolden those who intend to tax, spend, and destroy the constitution.

      • Richmond Spitfire says:

        Hi All,

        I was perusing the Richmond, VA Tea Party website and ran across this video: http://www.iousathemovie.com/.

        It is a bit long (about 30 minutes) but helps to explain the National Debt. I found it quite entrancing/intriguing.

        It was produced by the Peter G. Peterson Foundation which is (from Wiki): The Peter G. Peterson Foundation was established in 2008 by Peter G. Peterson, a co-founder of the Blackstone Group. With an endowment of $1 billion, the Peterson Foundation addresses fiscal sustainability issues related to federal deficits, entitlement programs and tax policies from a conservative perspective as evidenced by its “helpful resources.”

        Regards,
        RS

      • Fear is something that must be overcome. There is a large number of people in this country who will do what is necessary to fight for our freedom, be it through the democratic process, or by self defense. While there are some “doom and gloom” things to be mindful of, fear will only lead to mistakes and bad decisions. While we seem to be a small group, we are not alone!

        http://www.infoplease.com/spot/veteranscensus1.html

        G!

  8. No I have never believed that this President or Congress will bring down America. It does scare me that amount of money we are spending and who we are getting from. Americans in general are not paying attention, they have looked the other way for a long time now. I do believe that something will happen that snap people out of it. I just hoping it will be soon. Discussions are a great tool, people have to have discussion or debates to reach a solution to a problem. We have been in a time when people of this country is believing that this country owes them something.
    I am not sure what will change that mind set and have people start moving in another direction. Plus I believe that we have enter a place where we are so scared of offending someone, that we do nothing.

  9. Richmond Spitfire says:

    Good morning all,

    I think that the events surrounding the American Colony being able to revolt and create a new government was like a “thousand year storm — i.e. the Perfect Storm”. The winds, the temperatures, the humidity, etc. all combined just right to create an environment where a group of people could come together and throw off the yoke of tyranny that they were extremely dissatisfied and unwilling to live with.

    I sense that we, the people are experiencing the beginning affects of another storm. I’m not sure that it is a “thousand year storm or a 500 year storm”. You would think that lessons learned from the “Other Storm” would help us be much better prepared for this one…but I agree with US Weapon’s posting…We the people have indeed become apathetic and sheltered — we’ve convinced ourselves that we are safe and comfortable in our brick homes. Some of us just don’t want “the winds of change” because we’ve become very comfortable with the status quo — as long as we can “believe” that our Constitution is not becoming eroded.

    Over the years, we’ve convinced ourselves (after all the arguments and lobbying), that most times “compromise” on issues is acceptable (and at times palatable). After all, we are supposed to be governed “by the people for all the people”.

    Most “normal” sheeple that I talk to don’t really give a “damn” as long as their status quo isn’t compromised negatively; when some legislation occurs that they do give a “damn” over, they bitch, whine & complain for a short time, then they acclimate to the “new” status quo…maybe they have resentment, but they eventually acclimate.

    I freely admit that I’ve been one of these sheeple…I never felt the need to “buck the status quo” as I’ve mostly been satisfied with my life and felt blessed that I live in this wonderful country where I am free to be who Richmond Spitfire is. Somehow, someway, somewhere, something happened to me in August, 2008…I woke up from a deep sleep…had a bad taste in my mouth regarding the state of affairs that we find our wonderful country (pimples included) in. I have an ‘awareness’ that I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE. I don’t want to become apathetic again…because of this, I too feel a great need to “do”. I want to support “something” that I believe will have a bearing on saving my country.

    I can totally appreciate the theory of a “planned course of action” that will help guide me through the upcoming storm; I just NEED to know the steps that I can take to “batten down the hatches”, maneuver through the storm and survive the storm with Richmond Spitfire’s way of life intact.

    I have learned so much here at US Weapon’s site. I feel as though I am rubbing elbows with some wonderfully knowledgeable people; I feel like I’m rubbing elbows with some people who are like me too – have awakened from a deep sleep and myopically see trouble ahead. I regret that I’ve lost a good 20 some years by not being more far-sighted – but it is what it is and I can only move forward now.

    Remember, Richmond Spitfire considers herself to be a ‘normal person’ and somewhat of a doer – sometimes I can come up with good ideas or I can expound upon another’s good idea (but I do this best at a granular level). I will do what I can to help in this cause – just tell me what to do and I’ll let you know if I can do it and if I’m willing to do it.

    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.”
    -Louisa May Alcott

    Kind regards to all,
    RS

    • Richmond, Your thoughts echo mine.

      I am preparing (personally) for things to get worse but also want to “do” something to either reduce the severity and/or prepare for the hereafter (no, not that one) once we hit bottom. My problem is that I know not what to do!!!!

      These articles have opened my eyes and I admit I was very unaware of a lot of things prior to coming here. I still need to learn more and agree that a well thought out plan is the best. I feel some consistent action must also be taken now. I am not a politician nor do I desire to become one. But there must be other babysteps we all could be doing right now and I personally need help here. I did the tea party; write and call my Reps often, am becoming involved with local political races more than I’ve done previously.

      What else?

      • Madmom, I know you are crazy busy – but I would love for you to do a guest post – a personal story of what you are doing and a to do list for the rest of us.

        • Richmond Spitfire says:

          Hi Kathy,

          I agree…would love to see an article from Mad Mom!

          Regards,
          RS

  10. Now is not the time to begin a Civil War. Violence against the Government will only get a lot killed and even more imprisoned. The people at this time are still asleep for the most part. We must remember that there are well over 300 million people in this Country.

    Of that number, how many are Black and in lock step with Obama because of his race?

    How many are Latino and in lock step with Obama because of what he will give them?

    How many are simple minded, liberal morons, who don’t have a clue, or smart liberal Obamatons who think he does no wrong?

    How many out there in the US are just apathetic and don’t care or don’t know that their Government is taking away their Liberty as fast as they possibly can?

    How many are only concerned with their daily lives and don’t care what goes on outside their own small world of family and friends?

    How many know full well what is happening and, since they are large and in charge right now, are going to make these changes as fast and as permanent as they can?

    If you add all these people up, you will find that we intelligent, card-carrying, critical thinkers who see our Freedom and Liberty going in the toilet are vastly outnumbered by these others. And until these numbers come closer to evening out, we cannot make meaningfull changes. Also, if we do not make careful planned movements and philosophies, our changes will be no different than Obama’s changes will be.

    We must plan. We must talk to our fellow Americans and try to illuminate their minds to what is taking place now. Their movement did not just happen before the last election. All we saw was the result of probably DECADES of planning.

    Hopefully, it will not take us decades to turn this around. Because I, unlike USW, DO think that this Government will either destroy what I feel is the Freedom and Liberty that God gave us, or collapse under the weight of the deficit and taxes and regulations they are instituting DESPITE the feelings of a lot of the people.

    I really hope I’m wrong USW, and that you are right. I freely admit to being one of the “doom and gloomists” on your site. Like TexasChem, I have this feeling of looming disaster. I have NEVER felt like this before about any previous government. But possibly this is because I have had my eyes opened so much in the past few months. I hope that’s all it is.

    I have to go work now but will check in occasionally and see what’s happenin’.

    Peace Out
    EHG

  11. Bama dad says:

    Good morning all.

    As one who has posted here with opinions that might lead others to think that I thought the country was on the verge of collapse, let me say that was not my intent. I am of the opinion that this government and citizen’s lack of fiscal responsibility will bring economic problems in the near term exactly how those problems will manifest themselves I do not know. We and the government have lived too long on borrowed money. I believe that it is only prudent for wise people to take charge of their lives to get out of debt, live within their means and set aside for troubled times ahead. Having food storage, the necessities of life available at home and money set aside is not just for the apocalypse but for any emergency in life. After a layoff, a natural disaster, or even a long illness 3 months, 6 months, or 9 months of stored necessities of life would be of great comfort in whatever troubling time you are in. In any thing I have said (however poorly done) it has been my goal to encourage everyone to be better prepared to handle what ever life has in store for them. As I have said before “Be prepared”. If you are not prepared begin now, it is not something you can do in one day, it is something you work on for a lifetime. 😆

  12. danak13 says:

    USW….a challenge. I thing that I have learned from your site is interesting. There are some very “philosophical thinkers” out there willing to espouse their opinions. I like reading these differing opinions as they are great “ammunition” for thinkers and doers. However, you have one very salient point…there are a lot of people out there that want to do something but do not know how. I am going to take my time with your post and hope to answer it as concisely as possible. At the end, I will refer you to a website that I have started on a local level and hope that you take the time to read it. So far, I have had over 11,000 readers and the circulation is growing. I am not saavy enough to set up a blog like this but I feel that your blog is so good, I do not see a reason to duplicate it anywhere but will refer my readers to your blog.

    Like you, I do not put up with any bull shit. I hope that you will like it and, with your permission, I plan to reinvent my site with some of the facts from your post and I would like to copy and paste exactly things that you have said and invite commentary.

    So, as you know, I am not afraid of research nor am I afraid to get out and find things on my own. I have lot’s of life experience and growing up in the 50’s/60’s/70’s, I have seen the ground floor, participated in the foundation building, argued against, applauded some, fought for everyone, etc. etc. This country is just barely getting to toddler stage but we are a country of doers…that is why WE, America, is here. To quote Bill Murray in the movie “Stripes”…our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse.” How close are the writers of that movie? All of the free thinkers and doers were ostracized and shipped out as criminals or malcontents. The free thinkers are here and the jealousy is not far behind. This country has the potential to lead and be the leader….but leadership has responsibilities and that responsibility is to protect the very fiber of what started us. However, I will stop here and respond to your post later today. Thank you.

    D13

    • I started a local site for political discussion/education in Idaho, but I’m not getting much response. What do you do to promote your site?

      • Richmond Spitfire says:

        Hi Michelle,

        I got to this site because I saw a posting by US Weapon on one of the Fox Forums that I was “trying” to sort through. I haven’t yet regretted that day that I clicked on that link to bring me here! 😎

        Regards,
        RS

    • USWeapon says:

      I will be glad to come over and read it. Please send me the link!

  13. Good Morning! Having read today’s article, and the posts thereafter, I can’t help get the feeling that some want action, for the sake of taking action, with no real road map to guide the journey along. I equate these thoughts the same as I equate this mantra “vote for change, for the sake of change itself”. We all know how the latter turned out!

    I also consider both idealogies as a recipe for failure, as has been proven over and over in our history and lives. As an avid deer hunter, planning and patience are the most important part of success. Just grabbing a gun and going into the woods without planning, could get you killed. I’ve helped many hunters who became very LOST, and had they not stumbled across me, may have perished.

    While I can understand the rush to act, rushing to act for the sake of action is doomed to failure.

    G!

    • You can’t ask for change without a solution for what change you want to occur. If you do, invariably the change you get is worse than what you had before. Even though folks may not THINK any change could be worse than Obama, I can give you 2 examples. Joe Biden and Nazi Pelosi. The 2 people behind Obama in succession.

      Wouldn’t that be worse? 😉

      • Richmond Spitfire says:

        Hi Esom,

        I sure hope that BO remains healthy…talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire! 😉

        Hope this Monday finds you well!

        Regards,
        RS

  14. Black Flag says:

    #3 –

    USWep is correct.

    I do not believe interacting with the system in any manner will affect any change to the system. It is organized in such a way that any energy – for or against it – empowers it for use on is own agenda completely independent of the People. Energy in favor of the system, the system claims “See we are right!”. Energy against the system, the system claims “Danger, they are taking your freedom!” Heads they win, Tails you lose.

    The illusion of the system is that at times, the system appears to be working for the People – but it is only an illusion – an accident of coincidence, not design. The system works for no regard to the People.

    The only hopeful action is to reverse the centralization of power – however, that will be violently resisted by the Centralist Elite …

    “In time, a modern state came to be seen as an association to protect the rights of individuals, and this added a stronger presumption against secession, because any right of a people to secede could only be the aggregate right of a set of individuals.

    But if one set could secede, any other set or subset-down to one individual – could secede. An acknowledged right of secession would mean the unraveling of the modern state.”

    Full circle – no matter how or what interaction with the State – the State sees either a justification for more and greater extent of itself OR a direct threat to its existence.

    The ONLY option left is – nothing –

    Do no action for or against the State – ignore it, dis-empower it providing NO energy whatsoever. It cannot claim neither a justification by support nor threat by attack. With neither energy – it can do nothing – and all governments dissolve without ‘ a doing’ something, for they become wholly redundant.

    You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul.” ~ Gandhi

    • BF, you quoted Gandhi…

      You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul.” ~ Gandhi

      Ok, I feel like I’m being baited with this one, but you advocate that resistance is futile. Are you saying that to do nothing is equal to resistance?

      • Black Flag says:

        Yes!

        When a system is designed in a way that no matter how you interact with it, you are aiding it – what is the best way not to aid it?

        • I see and understand your analogy, and agree that it could work. Believe me, I can do nothing with the best of them. My concern would be the same as G-Man’s. How to persuade the masses, essentially everyone to do nothing.

          You have to admit (I think) that the majority of the citizens of the US would most likely not adhere to that philosophy. Looking past the fact (if it is indeed fact) that this would be unlikely to work, what else would you advocate if anything?

          • Black Flag says:

            Why is everyone so concerned about the masses?

            The mass-man is one who has neither the force of intellect to apprehend the principles issuing in what we know as the humane life, nor the force of character to adhere to those principles steadily and strictly as laws of conduct;

            and because such people make up the great and overwhelming majority of mankind, they are called collectively the masses.

            The line of differentiation between the masses and the Remnant is set invariably by quality, not by circumstance.

            The Remnant are those who by force of intellect are able to apprehend these principles, and by force of character are able, at least measurably, to cleave to them.

            The masses are those who are unable to do either.

            Do not concern yourself with them – they move with little or no thought and are by character weak and frivolous.

            They neither have the courage to stand, and will follow any flag waved in their face.

            When you have the moral principle, and the character to apply it your life, you do not need the majority of people – you are holding all the power in the world that you need.

            The strength of overwhelming moral action.

            • Sorry about that BF…I was evidently typing out that response while you were answering that question below. Had I read that prior to posting this, I wouldn’t have bothered.

    • Now, if only the rest of the 300 million people in this country could understand this, there would be a fighting chance that it would work. Since that is not going to happen, how about a plan “B”. I see the point your making, but is it a practical solution for the future? If only 10,000 people follow this path, it is doomed to fail, not from merit, but lack of support from the masses.

      Nice to here from you today!

      G!

      • Black Flag says:

        The system, G-Man, is incredibly fragile.

        Notice how it uses overwhelming violence on any and all who dispute its power, no matter how minor?

        Why does the State act with maximum violence against any threat against it?

        Because it is FRAGILE. Any – and I mean any – small crack in its power, it will shatter the State top to bottom.

        It will take a minuscule number of people to shatter the State. Look at Gandhi – it only took one man to bring an Empire to its knees.

        The State is terrified by People who refuse it. In its heart of hearts, the State knows it is illegitimate and evil. It’s dearest desire is to try to prevent the People from knowing that too.

        • Black Flag says:

          Another example of its fragility.

          Look at prisoners that have been wrongly convicted and jailed. The government will fight tooth and nail to keep them in jail even when the evidence overwhelmingly points to their innocence! Why?

          Because the State can never been seen to make a mistake – to be mistaken means your fallible – and the State cannot been seen such or it loses its role as “supreme decider of all things”.

          It will fight until it is shown that “the State” made no error – a person made the error against the State – the blame is turned to some rogue.

          The government will rarely admit to a fault – even if it is blatant. ….Rogue cops beat innocent people to coma – are excused…. we all know the stories….

          To admit fault is to admit fail – any fail, the government loses legitimacy – and it will collapse.

          The State is incredibly fragile – which makes it incredibly dangerous.

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Dear Black Flag,

      You truly do puzzle me! I think I understand your position, but I keep going back to the “How can a person, IN REALITY, physically live anywhere on this planet (unless it is an unchartered island inhabited by the boys from Lord of the Flies) by this logic?” I am not being a smart-alek here, I just don’t get it!

      Are you living in the States? If so, are you able to live by this logic even if partially? Don’t mean to intrude upon anything personal…I am just in great wonder/awe if you are able to apply this logic and live in a realistic way….

      Thanks and regards,
      RS

      • Black Flag says:

        First and foremost, you need to accept that you can do it.

        Why?

        Because every time the State forces itself into your life – you have to recognize it. Without seeing it, you cannot act in a way to avoid, dismiss, mitigate or ignore it.

        Further, you must understand that freedom is very hard work – incredibly hard. There are no short cuts.

        Are you willing to give up things (even illusions) that you may hold very dear?

        Are you willing to unhitch yourself from the State?

    • BF. I see what you are saying. I would say as G does, that if the rest of the 300 million got on board, it might even work.

      But the questions I have are:

      How do you keep from participating when taxes are taken out of your check before you get it?

      How do you NOT pay taxes?

      While I understand not voting or participating in the Government, I don’t understand how you don’t partiipate AT ALL. Every time you buy, or pay a tax, or use the Post Office, you are participating in the Government. Or at least supporting it.

      Believe me when I say that not supporting the Government is the way to go. I would love to see the Government starve from lack of support. Lack of participation though does not seem to me to matter. Government then will just keep on keepin’ on. Passing Laws and regulation to restrict everyones Freedom and Living. You ignore their Laws at your peril do you not? Just seeking answers.

      • Black Flag says:

        Some strategies will involve legal process, so I will not be specific, because I am not a lawyer. I will offer generalities and my thinking – but do not try this at home 😉 – get good legal advice.

        It is completely unnecessary to break any government law to be free of government – if by any actions means you are breaking a law – you are not gaining freedom but seriously threatening its loss!

        It does not require ‘tricks’ Not paying income tax because you believe (correctly) that the 16th Amendment was not legally ratified will cause you to lose your freedom. The government is long past having to justify its abuse to bother listening to stuff like that.

        Government is more then willing to let you be free. If you don’t want them, they don’t want you (in case you start infecting others) – however, you must be prepared that they will make you life ‘difficult’ – to dissuade others from attempting the same. But most importantly, they cannot stop you.

        Lastly, as I said above – are your ready to make the changes for your life that allows you to be free?

        There is an infinite space between wishing and being.

        In all these matters, the key is to work at the edge of government power.

        Government power extends only to its jurisdiction. That is always the first question in all matters of government – does it have jurisdiction?

        Most of your work is to live in the “March Area” – the areas out of jurisdiction or in competing jurisdictions.

        The March of Wales is now a vague area on the border of England and Wales. During medieval times, it was an ever-changing borderland which took two hundred years to create. The land was fiercely defended, with Welsh and English families making or losing their fortunes on the valuable borderlands.

        How the March of Wales was Created

        The English kings never felt they had satisfactorily conquered Wales and were constantly aiming to increase their military presence in the country.

        The History of the Welsh March

        The author is keen to ensure that the Welsh March is recognised as a place of historical importance. This was a region where people of different social and cultural backgrounds intermingled, whether willingly or not.

        Those are the strategies – organize your life in a way that it exists outside or between jurisdictions.

        How do you keep from participating when taxes are taken out of your check before you get it?

        How do you NOT pay taxes?

        First, you can’t be an ’employee’ – the system takes from your employer before he has a chance to give it to you.

        To not have this happen is to move yourself from an employee to a ‘supplier’.

        Next, remember that requirement to pay taxes is wholly based on your residence – you do not pay New York State taxes if you are a resident of Florida.

        Therefore, you must adjust your circumstances in a way that where you reside has no tax. This can be very different from where you live.

        Next, remember that requirement to pay land tax is determined by who owns the land. Often, land tax is not applied to land held by foreigners.

        Therefore, the property you use “here” should be owned by an entity residing “over there”.

        Governments tend to tax labor of it citizens.

        But not (usually) its foreigners. I go into numerous countries and share my talent. I am not paid by any person or company in that country. The organization or person I am sharing my talent may pay an entity outside the jurisdiction of that country – and I earn my compensation from doing work outside of that country. At no time am I working for that company in that jurisdiction.

        Next, remember that government, if you really drill down to it, is after your wealth.

        Therefore, keep your wealth away from where you reside and away from where you live. Government loves foreign wealth, but knows it cannot try to take it – because the foreigner is not trapped physically inside the jurisdiction, and two key-clicks, the wealth is moved somewhere else. Thus, government doesn’t muck around with foreigner’s wealth. The USA is an offshore tax haven for everyone else in the world but obviously not for US citizens.

        So, you live at a different place then you reside at a different place where you work at a different place where you wealth is located.

        You do that, you’re about 95% free from abusive taxation.

        The rest is paid, roughly, for services seized by the government that you have no reasonable why of obtaining from the free market.

        For example you will pay gas tax – it’s there to pay for the roads (so they claim). But if you don’t drive a car, you don’t pay.

        you are participating in the Government. Or at least supporting it.

        If most people were able to avoid 95% of the grip of government, the State would collapse.

        Passing Laws and regulation to restrict everyones Freedom and Living. You ignore their Laws at your peril do you not? Just seeking answers.

        You ignore laws to do not apply to you. Position yourself in a way that laws do not apply to you.

        No one is able to avoid the law against murder – but few complain that is ‘bad law’, right?

        Those are based, in some degree, Natural Law based on Human Rights.

        However, 95% of the laws on the books have nothing to do with that – they are abuses of violence on non-violent people. Those laws apply to the jurisdiction of the State. By (as much as possible) being outside of that jurisdiction, the laws do not apply.

        The laws of Singapore do not apply to a person living in New York and vice versa.

        All of the above are merely tactics – there are more….

        …but the strategy is to recognize the State for what it is – and do nothing with it in every human way possible.

        • OK. I think I got that. And you’re right that’s going to be really hard to do BF. At least for me.

          I am willing to do the hard stuff. MY problem is that I have hostages to fortune, i.e. family. While if I was by myself I could do that in a minute, I am not. I have a family. That gives the Government at least somewhat of a hold on me.

          I also cannot afford to quit my job. I cannot make a living without it. And I don’t have the skills to fing the kind of job that you describe. And I am afraid that I am like most people in the US. We are just screwed as far as getting independence from taxes and Government.

          What you have has probably taken you years of planning and work to achieve. I cannot just drop everything right now because I could not support my family if I did. I am between a Government rock and a hard place.

          • Black Flag says:

            I have a family. That gives the Government at least somewhat of a hold on me.

            Yes, it is a challenge – but the challenge is in your heart and head.

            1) Your family is far more resilient than you know.
            2) The effort to be free is to free them! It is easy for one man to be free – but what’s the bother? You are working to free your children!

            I also cannot afford to quit my job.

            I didn’t quit working either. Think out of the box.

            And I don’t have the skills to fing the kind of job that you describe.

            Yes, you do! You are being paid right now, right?

            What I altered the structure of what I do to be acceptable to mobility – I did not change what I do. Most (99.5%) of people who do what I do believe they cannot act they way I do.

            It is all in their head – and their unwillingness to think out of the box.

            And yes, it MAY mean a small drop in your lifestyle and income – but what is your price for freedom?

            We are just screwed

            One of the few jingoisms in the world that more you repeat to yourself, the more it becomes true.

            What you have has probably taken you years of planning and work to achieve.

            First couple of decades was figuring out I was a slave.

            8-10 years of doldrums and suffering – because I knew nothing about anything of what to do.

            Once I figured it out, it took 6-8 months to put into place. It took 5 years of cultivation to make a solid, rooted, base and structure.

            You invested 12 years into indoctrination school.

            5 years to undo it.

            I cannot just drop everything right now because I could not support my family if I did.

            I do not speak of a revolution. I did revolution – but it is unnecessary.

            Small steps, one at a time – and one day, you’re free!

            It’s like an investment program – it doesn’t seem like a lot at first, but time-compounding, its amazing.

            If you spend merely 8 hours a week – an hour a day or so a day, in 5 years, you’ll have spent 1500 hours changing your life. That’s a lot of hours – but as an investment, its small.

            I am between a Government rock and a hard place.

            Then move to a new ‘mental’ rock.

          • I am in the same situation. That, I am afraid, will be the norm rather than the exception and why in my opinion this would not be feasible.

            I don’t think claiming 30 dependents would work either!

            • Black Flag says:

              Break out of your box of denial.

              Instead of giving up, give up giving up!

              Work to figure it out!@!

              It’s out there!.

              If it was easy, there wouldn’t have been a government in the first place.

    • BF,

      I am guessing you know who John Galt is.

    • Black Flag says:

      RS, Esom, G-Man, Terry,

      I hear what you are asking – but you’re not asking the question the right way.

      For example, You ask “How do I not pay tax”. Good question, if it was question 846!

      It is waaaayyyy to early to ask that question if the underlying premises of your situation are not resolved! I when I give you the answer to the ‘tax’ question – your collective responses is “WoW! That’s huge work, can’t be done –from where I am today And you’re 100% right! It couldn’t be done day one for me either.

      Got to start from the beginning, people! First step – unhook from the loot of government – JAC said it awhile ago. Do not use government – don’t apply for a marriage license – don’t succumb to the siren call of easy government money. Stop working for government – change your job away from government and work for real people.

      The more you unhitch from government, the more you will get the ability to unhitch from government. It’s like cleaning a window – the more you clean, the less the dirt, the better the light, the more it highlights the dirt and streaks that you then clean…. until its perfectly clear.

      • Black Flag says:

        And a point of clarity –

        When I said I didn’t change what I did – I was meaning as a point of a job – the core of my career didn’t change – how I worked in my career did.

        However, as per my expose a post or so back, well before I reorganized the structure of THIS career, I did change my entire career, and lifestyle and choice of efforts to align myself with my own principles. In other words, what I was doing 35 years ago, when I became Black Flag, was not what I do today.

        • BF, I am 50+ years old. I know it is not impossible to change this late, but it adds a degree of dificulty that I am not sure I have the energy to deal with.

          I truly admire your intestinal fortitude for your accomplishment, I will have to do some intense introspection to evaluate the feasibility of that action for myself.

          • Black Flag says:

            You are in the best time to do so!

            The less obligations one has, the easier it is – it’s not unusual that those who are nearing or at retirement are the most prominent is moving out of range of government.

        • Signing off for today…looking forward to more discussion with you on this.

        • Black Flag says:

          To make a systemic change, y need to find your niche.

          Master it. This takes 5,000 hours.

          But 1,000 hours gets you nicely into the game. That’s not so much.

          If you invest 10 extra hours a week, in two years, you have your 1,000 hours. You can learn a new field in your off hours.

          If you get paid to learn the field, you can do this in six months, doing nothing extra.

          Do a lot extra.

  15. JayDickB says:

    The above discussion about action now vs. only the right action has given me an idea for two types of future discussions.

    1. I would like to see opinions on how a new government would be organized if we had that opportunity. Would it be organized a lot like our present constitution prescribes? What changes would you make in out present constitution if that were to form the base? Or, would you suggest something totally different from our constitution? If so, what? A dictatorship? Not unless I get to be dictator;-)

    2. What do we need to do to get to this new government? Follow Black Flag’s idea and ignore the present government until it falls (did I get that right?)? Do we take specific action to change the current government to what we want? What actions would be the most effective?

    These discussions might result in progress on both fronts described above: action now vs. deciding what action.

    • Black Flag says:

      Jay,

      The question before (1) is:

      What is ‘government’? What is your definition? Mine is:

      “the entity that claims a monopoly on the initiation of violence within a defined geographical area”

      From that point, there can exist no moral government.

      (2) What moral center are you organizing around? Are you perfectly clear about what moral basis you wish to organize?

      If so, let’s hear it.

      • JayDickB says:

        At this point, I’m probably not “perfectly clear”. I just have lots of random thoughts, which are probably not worth talking about yet.

        • Black Flag says:

          Put them up!

          Nothing like a Black Flag to rip them apart 😉

          Just kidding – but the best way to flush them out is to discuss them, even if they aren’t fully prepared.

          The journey of mutual dialogue cleanses a lot thinking!

        • USWeapon says:

          I am with BF on this one. My definition is different than BF’s definition. But The key is that we talk about them. So what is floating around in your head? When you think of “government” what comes to mind (besides “jackasses”, which was my first answer in the word association game!)

        • JayDickB says:

          OK, here goes (but only a start).

          First, principles:
          1. Centralization is bad. Only really national functions should be centralized. Power corrupts and this maxim should be reflected throughout.

          2. Government should have minimal powers to do what is needed.

          3. Taxation is government’s mother’s milk. Need strict limits on taxing power.

          4. Power should be reserved (really) to states.

          Second, methods:
          1. US Constitution wasn’t bad. Use it as a starting point.

          2. Supreme court was biggest mistake in the constitution. It should have gotten more attention, including a way to override certain of its decisions.

          3. Objections from USW, JAC, and BF notwithstanding, I still like limited terms. It’s the only way to prevent career politicians, which I think are bad.

          4. Need some way to limit who can vote. Taxpayers only? Need to make sure voters have a real stake. Probably this should be left entirely to the states.

          • Black Flag says:

            Question #0:

            What is your definition of government?

            • JayDickB says:

              My def., without reference to authoritative sources (they might contaminate my thinking) = An organization created by citizens to perform functions in the common interest that individuals cannot perform on their own.

              • Black Flag says:

                That’s what I wanted – what YOU see government, so that when we use the word – we hold a common idea.

                So, allow me to punch holes :loL: err, clarify.

                What is “common interest”?

                Why can’t they perform ‘on their own’?

              • JayDickB says:

                Common interest is whatever they say it is. Could be many reasons why they couldn’t do things themselves. Defense comes to mind. They could defend themselves to a point, but common defense might be necessary against a large, well-equipped enemy.

              • JayDickB says:

                “Clarification” is good.

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Hi JBD,

      At the risk of incurring a Black Flag flogging 😉 I’ll attempt to put forth my opinion on how “passing legislation” should be addressed in a “new” government — not sure if this is what you asking (#1) but it’s just my initial brainstorming on how our elected representatives can be held more accountable for how they vote…I’m not married to these suggestions, they are just suggestions and I’m sure there are pros and cons. My suggestion below does allow for a “mandate” 😦

      This is one of the first things that came to my mind because I find it really frustrating to take a look at pending legislation only to not be able to make heads nor tails of what the darn thing is saying.

      **************************

      Any HOUSE legislation up for vote should follow a governance policy:

      a. Legislation is authored and publically published for review for a period of say two months prior to any vote taken on it. A system would need to be put into place where citizens may review the legislation and contact their State Representatives to agree / disagree with the legislation (need more definition here on what agree/disagree is) – this will allow the Representative to vote accordingly to their constituents’’ wishes. Methods of distribution could be via the web (electronic) or citizens can obtain a printed copy via mail.

      b. In regards to the actual legislation format:

      i. Part 1 of the legislation is written in a summary format that explains the legislation in layman terms. The summary should include the goals, expected outcomes, risks of not enacting, etc. of the legislation. This should be written by a non-partisan group; with “reviews” by the major parties in Congress.

      ii. Part 2 of the legislation is the actual legal language of the legislation; if referencing changes to other legislation, a link to that exact spot in the referenced legislation should be included (on the electronic copy); hardcopy of the proposed legislation should include all other mentioned legislation with a page reference.

      iii. Part 3 of the legislation is “Cost to Author” Summary. This part includes all costs incurred (present or future) for the authoring of the legislation. Includes FTE Costs for research, authoring, etc….I expect we could see a lot of money being wasted right here. An example of waste would be legislation to make June 1 the official June Bug Day…I think it probably costs a lot of money to push legislation like that through.

      iv. Part 4 of the legislation is the “Cost of Passing” Summary. This part includes ALL funding that the legislation will incur (present and future).

      v. Part 5 of the legislation is the “Report Card”. This is where the measurable goals, expected outcomes, etc. of the legislation are maintained. This is where we, the citizens can see how effective the legislation is and urge our Representatives to repeal if necessary.

      c. Legislation “funding” is included in the Budget as a line item; budget can be reviewed by all citizens (electronically).

      d. Legislation “Report Cards” can be accessed by citizens with a mechanism for citizens to rate their satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the legislation.

      *********************

      Again, this is just some initial brainstorming that I have on a very small slice of a “new government”.

      Regards,
      RS

      • Amazed1 says:

        Good ideas and add to it: only one piece of legislation at a time….no piggy backing bills to get something passed.

  16. Amazed1 says:

    The problem is that alot of people in America today have no ides what it is like to be without certain “rights”. They have never had to fight or believe in anything….it has all been handed to them on a platter. Most of America is walking around in a daze….but Americans are like sleeping giants. As they wake up and reality sets in more people will be where all of us on this site are at now….questioning and looking for answers. Are we ready to wake the sleeping giant?

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Hi Amazed Uno,

      I’ve been trying to awaken the sleeping giant one little atom at a time. There are some who listen but most just crack their cyclop eye open a little bit and grunt at me! I can’t pinch or use cold water (torture you know 😉 ).

      Regards,
      RS

      • Amazed1 says:

        Spitfire…..there are some we could not wake with a sledge hammer….but there are others who are slowly coming around. When I talk to some of these people at first they think “you are just angry because you are a Republican”, but after talking to them their little headlights start a slow blink. I am not a party pusher but a reformer who believes our government is way out of control. But they really do not understand, mainly because all they ever read or hear is what the news media pushes…..maybe we need our own media 🙂

  17. danak13 says:

    USW……“I know that some of you feel like this is the apocalypse. I don’t think that it is. I have seen Obama called the anti-christ, and the man that is going to ruin America if we don’t stop him now. I don’t think that he is. He is a massive personality that is being treated like a cult leader, in my opinion.”

    Danak13…. I agree. This is not the apocalypse and Obama is not the “anti-christ”. This is far right wing religious diatribe. He is a massive personality and he is like the Pied Piper of Hamlin…and, unfortunately, most people are lemmings. They follow blindly anyone who is charismatic. But he is not the leader, here. He may be President, but he is the puppet and not the marionette.

    USW….. “We need to stop here for a second and think about the reality of this situation in a logical and well thought out way. First, the apocalypse. This is not it. What we are seeing is the natural and somewhat regular cycle of progressive reform versus conservative fiscal policy. While I agree that progressive reform is flawed in its thinking, we are not seeing the end of our country or anything that dramatic. This is not the end of America. The current administration has moved with great speed in implementing reforms as they see fit. And I imagine that they will continue to do so. They believe that they have a mandate from the people, and they believe that they are implementing what the people want.”

    Danak13….. The only exception to this portion is the “mandate”. Some people will consider a mandate to read 51% to 49% and by definition as a noun a mandate is a “ command or authorization to act in a particular way on a public issue given by the electorate to its representative.” I will argue that a mandate is not that simple but given the definition and the fact that I can offer no other explanation, I have little choice but to accept this definition. 54% of the popular vote went to Obama. This is a given but I would not consider this a mandate. It is a majority of those that voted. The second part of this is that I do not believe that our current administration…all of it….is acting on what the people truly want. I still believe that there is a silent majority out there. I believe that the current administration is NOT reflective of our ideals. The issue is to get that majority off their ass and get out to vote. Education is the way to reach them. The vote can and will change things.

    USW said…..”They are spending massively. That is not good. They are implementing social programs that resemble socialism. That is not good. The are intruding into private industry in ways that resemble fascism. That is also not good. But these things are not fatal in and of themselves. They are what happens regularly in our system of cyclical power. And they will fail. They will fail because they are not based in sound principle, but instead on emotion and flawed reasoning. America will go on despite what this administration does. It always has. And we are in this situation because of the conditions prior to Barack Obama. He is the result of 50 years or more of social engineering. The programs of FDR were far more reaching than anything we have seen from this administration, at least thus far.”

    Danak13……The current mood of this administration is nothing different than the slow encroachment of the liberal movement.( Please do not misunderstand. I am not a far right conservative nor a Republican. FYI..I have never voted a straight ticket in my entire life. I actually look at each person and vote the individual.) I will not put a politically proper name on it as progressive movement…it is liberal by old definitions. I am not and will not be politically correct. Political correctness is a coward’s way out. Our country is in the grip of a very liberal and jealous movement right now. We are reaping the product of the 60’s which is an evolutionary product of the New Deal, which hindsight now shows us was a crock of crap. It is true that B.O. inherited problems but he did not inherit them from Bush…these problems that we have now actually extend back to the 50 years of the social engineering previously mentioned. The economic Law of Diminishing Returns will rear its ugly head in the next 5 years if the fiscal policies are not reversed.

    USW said…. “America will change. And that is natural. We have lived well beyond our means for far too long. As a result we find ourselves in an economic crisis. Despite the pundits who wish to lay this problem at the feet of the Republicans or at the feet of the Democrats, the reality is that we must lay the blame at the feet of ourselves. We were not fiscally responsible, we lived beyond our means, and we are now seeing the result of that. Government did little more than enact programs and policies that made it possible for us to do so. Government does not make someone live off of welfare. Government provides the opportunity for someone to be able to. Government’s mistake is not in trying to find a way to take care of people, it is in choosing the easier route to deal with where we are.”

    Danak13….. This is another topic all by itself. USW is correct in that we are a product of ourselves. It is not a Republican problem nor a Democrat problem. It is OUR problem. We are in control despite that some people do not think a vote can change things. It is an individual choice to want and take entitlements. Entitlements are a pariah that is out of control. However, it is NOT government’s responsibility to take care of its people other than providing for common defense. Government should not feed, cloth, or care for us. Government should provide the FREEDOM for the individuals to do so. Once government provides, through entitlement, goods and services, we, the people, become slaves to that mentality and the easy way out. Government, at that point, robs more than our money…..at that point it robs our individualism and our dignity.

    USW said….First, I understand the panic. I hope that you can understand that I do not panic. My life experiences taught me to see the situation and figure out how to react without panic. Keep a level head and plan a course of action. That is what I am doing now. It sounds like some of you want to put yourselves out there and challenge the United States Government. I warn you, that is suicide. You cannot hope to beat them. They are ALL aligned against you, regardless of party affiliation or position. The United States Government is the most powerful in the world. They have brought many countries to their knees, as many proud veterans have discussed. And yet there is a belief that a “grass roots campaign” will somehow do what no country or army in history has done, bring the American government to its knees. Bend the American government’s will to doing what you say. Understand this: They can take your money. They can take your property. And they can take your life. And they are willing to do all three if you challenge them in the wrong way. Action is good. Hasty action will not be.

    Danak13….. Very interesting analogy, USW, and right on target. I would like to expand upon this only to the point that it is not futile to oppose a government policy but to meet this head on would be tantamount to butting one’s head against the proverbial brick wall. You plan and attack that wall by weakening the mortar that bound it together. The wall will fall…..( I do not want any one to say I want the GOVERNMENT to fall, because I do not. Despite our problems, I do not see a better form of government out there. BUT, our government can institute policies that weaken our fabric….the fabric of the greatest Nation on this Earth…and I firmly believe that.) The mortar is the elected that WE have put into office.

    USW said…..The problem is the United States citizen. They are apathetic. They have their head in the sand. They are too busy to be bothered to do what is necessary to keep government under control. They have been this way for a very long time. As a result government has been able to grow to unprecedented size and scope and power. They are uneducated (politically). They are unable to think critically. They have a mindset that is completely flawed in demanding entitlements, demanding equal outcomes, and clinging to 100 years of social engineering that made them this way.

    Danak13…. Again, right on, USW, and there are many that do NOT want to hear this. And, this statement, will be attacked. It will be attacked by the very liberal left and the politically insane. I will be in your corner.

    USW said…Point 4: I don’t think that is a fair assessment of what I said. What I said is that if he chooses to try to face government head on, he will fail. And I stand by that statement. Anyone who believes that they are going to march into Washington and take it by storm is both naive and prone to a level of wishful thinking that is dangerous to their well being. I did not say that by engaging, you will fail. I said if we rush into a headfirst battle with the federal government, we will fail. Tell me where I am wrong. Only 8 months ago the largest opposition party in the nation (The Republican Party) engaged against this administration in a battle for the public support. And they got their ass handed to them. Do not make light of that. Do not fail to learn from that. The public opinion has not changed. We have a small percentage of people with their eyes open enough to see what we see. Do not fool yourself into thinking that if we had a “do-over” election tomorrow, that the result would change.
    President Obama has a 60%+ approval rating. Of the remaining 40%, we may have 20% of them prepared to take up the cause. That equates to roughly 8% of the population. And that means that we must be smart about where and how we “engage”. I am not a fool. And I am not someone who merely sits on my ass and has philosophical discussions. What I am is someone who will pick the right times and spots to make my shots count. You ask me to come up with a plan. You say to me “you three intellectuals need to get off your ass and tell us what to do to fix this”. And then when I say what I think, you tell me I am a fool.

    Danak13…..You are correct in that the result will not change immediately. I will disagree that there is only an 8% part of the population that is ready and willing. I still think there is a great majority out there that is so disillusioned, they feel that there is no hope. The correct way to defeat this liberal, progressive (actually regressive) movement is for the 8% educate those that are lost or have given up hope. I will make the statement that most of the people that voted for change did not know what kind of change they wanted. The Lemming Effect is alive and well. I still believe that there are Americans out there that are fed up and need enlightenment. And that enlightenment is not the current administration and I mean administration in whole…..Democrat and Republican. So, there need to be some of us that are not only philosophical (which I am not) but leaders to take on and get the word out and challenge, with specificity, the things we feel are wrong for this country. The Republican party got its ass handed to them because they are not Republicans. The losers are not Republicans…..the losers are the people. You keep doing what you are doing and there are those of us out here that are now organizing, and I will use the term grassroots, because we are replanting and it will take time. As BF once said….one at a time. One at a time.

  18. Todd,

    I have to pipe up now. I’ve tried to stay out of it, but here goes. The Sheeple, meaning Obamatons, were demanding that Bush work with Obama to ‘fix’ the mess. If Bush hand’t done this, the accusations of racism, hating, blah, blah, blah, would’ve been deafening. Remember how the talking heads congratuled Bush on being ‘gracious’, as if this should be so out of character for him? Personally, I’m against all this bailout crapola, but I don’t blame Bush for going along with it, because when your opponent is determined to hang himself, you give him the rope. I hope the whole thing collapes on itself. Remember the words of Rahm Emanual “Never let a good crisis go to waste. You can do things you wouldn’t be able to do otherwise.” So, I say we go passive aggressive on the Government. Don’t cooperate with the plan unless the action is self destructive for the government. If anyone out there has found themselves married to a Parasite, you know how this works. The government is a parasite that feeds off of us. Don’t let the Parasite suck the life out of you.

    • CyndiP,

      Yes, I remember the demands that Bush work with Obama. That is fairly common during the transition from one administration to the next, but rarely have there so many issues that the cooperation is in the news every day. I don’t agree that the accusations would have been racism, but more along the lines of party politics, etc. Bush was definitely between a rock & a hard place – no one wanted to be connected to him.

      Mostly thru Karl Rove’s politics, Bush alienated just about everyone and his administration was rarely “gracious” to those that opposed it.

      I’m not a fan of the bailouts, but letting AIG and the banks fail would have lead to complete collapse of our financial system and probably society in general. Who knows where we’d be now.

      I did not like Rahm Emanual’s comment you listed. Very unprofessional to me.

      • Sorry, I have to disagree. Bush had already been accused of racism because of failing New Orleans levysduring Katrina. Allegedly, Bush deliberatly blew them up so the black people would get flooded.

        I don’t beleive Karl Rove is responsible for Bush’s reputation. I believe Al Gore the Sore Loser started that and Liberals ran with it. All that said, I’m not a great fan of Bush, but I don’t think he was evil. I think he’s a global elitist who did his part to bring Socialism to America. Obama is 100 times worse than Bush, and that’s me giving him the benefit of the doubt. Nevermind what my intuition tells me about Obama…

        • Katrina was just complete incompetence from the top down.

          Al Gore is responsible for Bush’s bad reputation? I haven’t heard that argument before. Gore was pretty much dismissed by everyone after the 2000 election. By the time “An Inconvenient Truth” came out, Bush’s reputation was already falling.

          It was Karl Rove’s “divide and conquer” politics that helped build the republican majority. But that eventually backfired and drove many people – including me – away from the republican party.

          • Todd, I know that Katrina was a mess from the bottom up, but that didn’t stop some non whites of accussing Bush of deliberately blowing the levys to flood out blacks.

            As for Gore, I’d say that since he’s a big time global warming huckster with lots of air time, a Nobel Prize, and an Academy Award, he hasn’t exactly been ‘dismissed’. Every Lib I know was furious at Bush because he ‘stole’ the election. I lived in Florida at the time, so I remember it well.

            Karl Rove is as much a political animal as any Democrat, so don’t go blaming him. The reason I left the GOP is due to their becoming Democrats Lite. Seems when the Democrat party went far left, moderate Dems joined the GOP and transformed it into what the old Dem party was, hence, the Dems-Lite. People like me, are giving a close look at the Libertarian party because of it.

            • Why the “bottom up” reference to Katrina? Did the victims cause the poor response?

              Bush and his administration’s incompetence were all that was needed to establish his reputation. Blaming Al Gore is laughable. “An Inconvenient Truth” came out in May 2006 and the Nobel Prize in October 2007. Bush’s reputation was well established by that time. Al Gore did not win an Academy Award.

              So, if Obama fails as Bush did, I can blame Limbaugh, Cheney, and Gingrich? Because they’re saying bad things about Obama?

              • USWeapon says:

                Technically no Todd, but yes Gore did win an academy award. His documentary “An Inconvenient Load of Total Bullshit” was given the Best documentary Oscar (should have gotten best work of fiction). While it technically did not mean that he won, he was on stage, and he did get a statue.

              • I must have missed THAT version of the film… 😉

                From Wikipedia:

                It is often erroneously claimed that Al Gore himself won the Oscar for An Inconvenient Truth. In fact, Davis Guggenheim was the Nominee and Recipient of the Academy Award. The Oscar statuette was handed to Mr. Gore briefly during Guggenheim’s acceptance, which may be the source of the confusion.

                He did not get a statue.

              • Yes, Tood, I DO blame the victims. I blame them because they ELECTED the incompetent and corrupt politicians and let them do as they damn well pleased.

                As for Bush, I don’t believe he was incompetent, at least not anymore than Obama, is judging by the state of the economy. Remember that for the first six years of his presidency, the economy was pretty good, at least until the Dems took over both Houses in 2006. Bush’s problem is that his policies were Democrat-Lite. Same BS as Obama just not in as short a time period.

  19. Whatever happens to the US as a nation, I do not think we are necessarily on the verge of collapse, however, I do believe it is possible. There will be a place where the constitution is upheld.

    I belong to a book group and I’ve tried repeatedly over the years to get them to read “The Law” by Frederick Bastiat. Finally I suceeded and they read it for our last discussion group. They were impressed and convinced to the point that they are sharing it with husbands, parents, friends. I’ve also gotten them interested in the Tea Parties.

    I think USW is correct that wiser is better than faster in returning America to freedom. I believe that the correct course of action has already been laid out by the philosophers of the past. The Constitution is our guide and I’m pleased and impressed that so many people who have always been conservative are now at this critical time holding it up as their standard.

    The Tea Parties are the predominate movement in this counter revolution, but there is no single leader. Do we need one? I don’t know.

    • Michelle, IMO, a single leader gives the opposition a single point to attack. Not many individuals can stand up to the onslaught that would come. I think the more the better.

    • Black Flag says:

      The Constitution cannot be the guide – it is the reason today is the way it is.

      Think beyond the Constitution – even deeper.

      • USWeapon says:

        Agreed… too many flaws and too many times that we will be forced to say “well first we have to change the Constitution”. We have to figure out where we want to go before we can plot a course to get there. Back to 1787 is not where I want to go.

      • TexasChem says:

        The principles contained within the Constitution are the very reason America has without a doubt become the greatest nation on Earth.Actually I am amazed you would place blame on a document that allowed such a great nation to rise.

        The reason today is the way it is I disagree with you on.I believe the reason to be misinterpretation of those principles by greedmongers and those who seek to bring America to her knees.

        • Black Flag says:

          Then the Constitution failed to prevent the very thing you believe it was supposed to prevent, not?

          • TexasChem says:

            The Constitution did not fail. The people failed the Constitution.The Constitution is a guideline.It will not work if not adhered to.Constitutional law is a load of crap and there would be no need for constitutional lawyers if there were no need by corrupt people to meet their agenda by misinterpreting the Constitution.Savvy?

            Like I’ve said before the root problem is the contents of the moral character of our society as a whole that in turn has allowed corrupted officials to be alected and use their power to control the masses.It’s a perpetual condundrum feeding on itself.

            • Black Flag says:

              What forces the government to adhere to the Constitution?

              Which body of the government determines whether the government is following the Constitution?

              • TexasChem says:

                BF:What forces the government to adhere to the Constitution?

                TC:Electoral process.Which we have learned the hard way needs stricter term limits and agenda guidelines for congressional candidates.

                BF:Which body of the government determines whether the government is following the Constitution?

                TC:The Legislative branch through impeachment.Yet we have flaws here as we can see that if the Legislative branch is populated by crooks then they will not do their jobs.

                Our government needs an overhaul to remedy these problems.IMO we should move towards a more Republic based system.For this to happen the people need to be educated.

              • Black Flag says:

                BF:What forces the government to adhere to the Constitution?

                TC:Electoral process.Which we have learned the hard way needs stricter term limits and agenda guidelines for congressional candidates.

                You have that already.

                If voting is the power, then you shouldn’t be complaining.

                By asking for term limits, you are contradicting yourself.

                One hand you’re saying the People have the right to pick their Representatives – on the other hand you are saying they are too stupid to pick their Representatives, so you’ll take some of them away.

                BF:Which body of the government determines whether the government is following the Constitution?

                TC:The Legislative branch through impeachment.Yet we have flaws here as we can see that if the Legislative branch is populated by crooks then they will not do their jobs.

                Not exactly – but no matter.

                Above you say the Constitution was not flawed.

                Here you are admitting the Constitution is flawed.

                (BF spear flying through the air…..)

                Our government needs an overhaul to remedy these problems.IMO we should move towards a more Republic based system.For this to happen the people need to be educated.

                Most educated people in history – this is what you get.

                Education is meaningless unless it is ground in moral base.

        • JayDickB says:

          Interesting discussion here. Any document (constitution) can be subverted by dishonest people, especially when many in power act in concert. However, a well-designed system can make this subversion more difficult to perpetuate and easier to reverse.

          This is what I was trying to get at above (#15).

  20. Stuck in Ohio says:

    So many excellent thoughts and ideas on this site. Todays’ posts are right on target and I agree with most of them. Makes me wish I had the writing skills of so many of the contributors here.

    I will continue to recommned this site to anyone who will listen!

  21. chiefopiner says:

    I am in agreement with USW. While I won’t say that there isn’t action to take immediately, I have my concerns that immediate actions that succeed do not always work out as intended.

    Using the repeal of the 16th Amendment spoken of as an example. Prior to enactment of the amendment Congress passed taxation laws, and one must believe they will again. Taxation can not be stopped from occurring, in one form or another. So then as citizens and voters we are still waging fights over individual tax measures being proposed by Congress (or States, Counties, and Municipalities). What has repealing the amendment actually changed for us? Short of a constitutional amendment any law enacted isn’t permanent – it only stands until repealed by the body that enacted it or it is struck down by the courts (in which case the lawmakers try again).

    (That alone makes me wonder if the focus on repealing the 16th Amendment is not the right focus, instead focus on how amendments to the US or State Constitutions can be enacted limiting government taxation.)

    The idea for the immediate goal is a cause of not looking at the long view of the potential consequences. One can clearly see this in the different states with the laws for registration of convicted sexual offenders. The intent of the law may be good, but the unintended consequences are the traps not foreseen by more careful planning before action. These laws may now be trapping minors into complying when convicted of sexual offenses for actions the laws likely did not intend to include (I’m thinking of some of the charges being brought or contemplated against minors over the “sexting” behaviors being dealt with of late).

    Fast action is like plugging the hole in the dike. It may stop that water leak but the whole foundation of the dike is weakened and no provision is made to correct that. We can, and in some cases should, plug the individual leaks. But, we must also plan on handling the foundation as well.

    Regardless of whether you’re for immediate goals or to looking at the long term goals it is important, no a necessity IMHO, to insure the goals have had all reasonable and rational consequences planned for before trying to be put into place. Chasing down and fixing the unintended consequences later seems to get us more of a patched rag than a whole blanket.

    • USWeapon says:

      Chief,

      “That alone makes me wonder if the focus on repealing the 16th Amendment is not the right focus, instead focus on how amendments to the US or State Constitutions can be enacted limiting government taxation”

      Now that is a more interesting theory. Far more promising in theory than repealing the 16th. We shoudl expand on that sometime soon. Have you written any extensive articles on this on your site. I think it would make a great guest commentary.

      • chiefopiner says:

        USW,

        No I haven’t – but given some time I’d be willing to try and put something into words that speaks to the idea. Let me give it some thought. I’d be happy to send it to you for you to use as a guest commentary.

        I’ll get the noodle considering this line of thought.

  22. Some great thoughts expressed here today. My POV, this has drawn out a bit longer that I liked, but I saw where US & JAC were going, so have been waiting and trying not to be a arm chair quarterback. I would have started with the Constitution & Bill of Rights and tried to break down where they have failed.
    I do not think it was the foundation or principles, but the implementation.

    Agree any thought of violence will return only negative results. Take a page from one that worked, Martin Luther King and peaceful protests changed America
    when so many felt it could never happen.

    As for no government or refusing to participate in voting, etc… There is a time when reality and principals collide. Don’t vote, Nancy’s frantic followers will win un-opposed. Barney Franks will be re-elected by one vote.
    And we NEED government, to “provide for the common defense”, if nothing else.
    Germany would have come knocking on our front door if we as a nation were not willing and able to defend ourselves. Militant fanatics today are willing, just not able.

    A plan of action. First let me confess, US, I have been cheating on you. I read other blogs. Hope you will forgive me. How do we get you and a large percentage of them together? The problem is the media will cover-up or ridicule any message we send. So we need to use the internet to bypass the media. GOOOH, Tea Parties, Stand UP for America, The Bobo Files, Red State Patriot, Michelle Malkin, etc., divided we fall.

    I also do not see America as about to fall, but if its direction is not changed soon, it will not be a country I will be happy living in, and I shudder to think what it will be like for my children.

  23. I will admit to being on the doom and gloom team. Its not hard to think that way living where I do and my ideaologies being outnumbered 20 to 1. My family has been preparing for the worse for a very long time now. I don’t think America is going to fold completely but do think life as we know it is going to change drastically ecinomically, which in turn is going to make the bad guys in this city get alot bolder in their actions.

    Since I’ve been reading this blog I have come to admire people like BF and his principals. Regardless of the subject, he always has thought provoking ideas and never once strayed from his non-violent stance. I can’t say that I agree with everything he says but it always gives me something to think about while sitting here at work watching the world drive by.

    USW is right that we need to have a plan before any action is taken and discussing different ideas and options with as many people as possible is the best way to formulate that plan. I am willing to do as much as I can to help in any way I’m needed. Just point me in a direction and send me on the way and I’ll be happy. Unless your sending me to Berkley or San Francisco, then I’d need a flak jacket and some really good running shoes…maybe a can of mace just to be safe.

  24. SFC Dick says:

    Bear with me, I again have no MS word so I’ll try to stick to words I can spell. It’s late here and I’ve already taken my temazepam. But here goes.

    I will sound very pretensious here. I’m implimenting my plan.

    Why do you think I post here? I can spin peopple up and get all manner of profane attacks going on at fox, I make a statement and let the dogs fight, I’m a bit twisted , but it was entertaining.

    I’m here for a different thing. Here it comes.

    to persuade most/some of you people to change.

    I stuck around to implement the Jesus plan. Jesus showed me the template and it worked for him. Were we all physically together and I could pull out one loaf of wonderbread and a packet of buddig beef and feed you all, well I probably would have you attention and a bit of cache, then you might listen a bit.

    US speaks of apathetic voters, well. maybe but that’s a phylisophical discussion on what’s apathetic and what they do.

    Lazy folks don’t vote. I love them. I don’t have to factor them

    the factor that I see is the involved voter driven by some cause that they feel morally superior about.

    anti smoking, anti-pro abortion, anti drug etc. Some call them single issue but that is much oversimplification.

    The sytem does not need to be changed, we do.

    the syetm does what we tell it. Look at the change in the political leanings in the past 50 years. The system has changed drastically because we demanded it.

    we gave the government, actually demanded of the government that it become a big police state, why? to fight the war on drugs.

    I guess we as a nation dodged the bullet for our first 150 years with our permisive drug policy. WHEW’ that was close.

    So now the government has much police power because we demand that they get “those guys” and, AND we even cop them slack when they push the limits a bit because, what the heck, they were going after druggies and druggies will destroy this country. Apereantly these drugies have figured out how to destroy the country in the last 70 years or so. But hey, they’re druggies, whatdya expect.

    All things progress, now we have the war on terror, so we give the government more police powers to protect us.

    I gotta step back though. Any one here remeber some dudes flying planes into some high rises in NY, the Pentagon and a plane crash in, PA? 2001 was it? Hmm, I guess since that was the first time any one has ever hijacked a comercial jet it is only understandable that we were caught off guard on that one. It would be a much different story had people been hijacking jets since, say, the late 1960s.

    remember all those Americans, especially the children, that started starving to death in the US in the mid 1960s? It was horrible, massive deaths, sudan like. We had to do something to stem that. Give people with out a predetermined income free food and money and housing and work training and other stuf. We shure as heck aint racists, but it should go to the black man, he’s inferior you know. He’s kinda dimwitted and slow, so it’s only right that we give him preferential treatment. Lets ignore actionable discrimination, because the white man doesn’t really discriminate and do other vial things like deny services or accomodations. Nope, that is not the problem, the Black man is inferior, and the black women, and they need all the help we can give them. God bless George Lincoln Rockwell, I guess he was correct.

    And to be fair, the white man aint so hot either, he might be a CEO, have control of a big corporation, but they have bad days too. You can not expect a fella under that kind of pressure to be able to make it on 26 million a year, worrying about how he’s gonna pay his mortage, send his kids to college etc and still keep his mind on his work. He’s a hard working dude, when he bankrupts a company it’s only fair that we help him out, because remember, grandma’s retirement and life savings are at stake. Can’t let grandma sink.

    speaking of grandma, it’s only reasonable that she continued to vote herself more and more federal money. The feds told her she deserved it. They even told her about a social security trust fund with zillions of dollars in it, just for her. She wasn’t going to let them sit on her money.

    and the whole gun thing, we really don’t need guns. We need, air(O2) water, food and sleep. guns , not so much.

    The planet is dying, everyone knows that. the sooner we fix that the better. It’s for the children after all.

    Obscenity! if the druggies don’t kill this country obscenity will. Seeing two people in the natural, or un natural, depending on your picadilo, physical act of fornication will ruin the children, weak of mind and will. Just ask the Talib, they know man can not control his urges. This is America though, and we are tough, porno, not so much, violance, graphic violance, well, that’s a character builder, two girls kissing is the road to damnnation.

    Nobody is smart enough, come to think of it, we might be in the same boat as the poor black man in this respect, we are too stupid to protect ourselves. It is best if we figure out how everyone should be required to protect themselves, we’ll take care of that.

    and one last thing, no one really needs all these “rights” and “liberties” talked about in a 240 year old document.

    so there it is, on a better day i’d have done much better on my sarcasm, wit and irony, but it wasn’t apathy that gave us that, it was active, involved, righteous folks.

    How do I tie in Jesus.

    The desciples. A group of dudes, 12 I think, funny number that, same as an Operational detatchment Alpha team, A team.

    he talked about a way, he lived the way, and by example encouraged and persuaded others, a small group.

    so I’m here. I preach personal responsibility and liberties, under the banner, MYOGD bussiness.

    I can make the phylisophical argument for that, but until people realize they have no moral authority to empower government, on thier behalf, to force some one to do something or not do something, and act accordingly, no thing will change. If you belive in that philosophy, and can arcticulate to some one why it is not right to force this man here to pay for that person there to have an abortion, nothing will change. While you are at it with that argument, toss in the no right to tell that man there what he can ingest in his body. Or that man there that marriage is a religious act, not a power of the state, and maybe toss in equal protection under the law so this group, married people, should have no more benefits under the government than non married.

    If you want your freedoms, to control your money, your life, your family, then realize you should not empower a government, who has authority to force compliance on all things with deadly force, to control the lives of another.

    If, IF, you can ever get on board with that, and you can talk to several people, close family and friends, and persuade them of the merits of this life style, things will change. If you are forming grass roots organizations that do not recognize these truths, then I argue that what ever “gain” you make, you will eventually use these new found political powers to continue more of the same, just on your side, you agenda, your moral crusade driven by your own common held, moral truths.

    One of my favorite lines from Christ, if it was reported correctly, and it is prominently displayed in my big big cathederal, is

    render unto Ceasar things that are Ceasars’, render unto God things that are Gods’

    My Kraut great grandma gave me the other “people need to MYOGD bussiness”

    mine, I use “leave me TF alone”.

    • so get Oo it is every bit as good as any MS stuff. Very Nominal cost, FREE!! There are dictionaries in all kinds of languages

      If using windows an gates why not switch

  25. What I am reading here for the most part is that the majority seem to want to scrap the USA – Constitution and all – and start over . . . .

    BF just wants to dump it all and everyone for themselves kind of country – which really is not a country at all, just chaos.

    After reading the majority of what folks here have to say I can only now understand why Obama said he wanted to change the greatest country in the history of mankind and everybody jumped on his bandwagon. It seems to me that all of you – or most of you – have got the idea in your heads that what the founders of this country did was wrong. You bought the Communist lie that the USA is nothing short of a lie in itself.

    I sure hope and pray that I am wrong.

    • Black Flag says:

      They are wrong like Newton was wrong –

      Or was he right and do you think we should go back to Newtonian Physics – and throw away the computer, solar cells, the laser?

      If one refuses to see the systemic problems – you are doomed to repeat them, GA – no matter how much you pontificate.

      • TexasChem says:

        BF your answer to our nations problems seems to me to be to “lay it down”.Don’t support the govt.Don’t pay taxes.Don’t vote.Or am I misunderstanding you?

        That sounds good in principle if every citizen of the states were to do it but I hate to break it to ya’ here but it aint ever gonna’ happen.The left would love that.They would continue to vote and elect more radical members of government and we would continue to lose more of our liberty and freedoms.

        Congress is a cesspool of members with the type of moral character I personally am offended with.Take Barney Franks for instance.I am simply amazed a person that imbalanced could possibly be a representative of my nations governing system.How did that happen?

        Pondering that question I have come to the conclusion that the only way he could be elected was because our society allowed him to be; by voting him in.That conclusion states everything that is needed to know.Our society has morally degraded into an apathetic, morally defunct, organism.Something that allows people like him to be the norm in a position of power.

        Blast me all you want but we need Gods guidelines of life back in our nations cultural identity to bring in a social solidarity of like minded individuals to promote the good in mankind for the benefit of all.

        It is blatantly obvious to me that individuals with ideals based upon greed, money, wealth and power will use whatever means necessary to attain and keep their agendas.These ideals have become the vice of our members of congress who seek those ideals over the betterment of our society.

        I am not saying that everyone should be a christian to make this nation work.What I am saying is that the principles taught within the Bible have allowed this nation to prosper and since our societies turn away from those principles the nation has deteriorated and will continue to do so.

        Below is something for you to let your philosophical minds wander in…

        BILL SHULER: 10 Thoughts on the Role of the Bible in America
        By Bill Shuler
        Pastor, Capital Life Church, Arlington, Virginia

        This past week a nation took notice when a San Diego couple was ordered to stop holding Bible studies in their home without a permit. (The order was rescinded after public outrage.) In an unrelated story, a U.S. Court in Pennsylvania ruled that the Bible could not be read during a show and tell time when a kindergartner brought what he described as his, “favorite book” to class. Is it possible that a nation that has such a rich history of going to the Scriptures for guidance now is in the process of turning its back on the same? The following are 10 thoughts on the role of the Bible in America:

        1. In a review of nearly 15,000 items written by our founding fathers, the Bible was the most quoted of any source material.

        2. George Washington and successive U.S. Presidents have been sworn into office placing their hands on the very book that is now unwelcome in many public schools.

        3. “The Bible is worth more than all other books which have ever been printed” — Patrick Henry

        4. “The Bible is the best book in the world” – John Adams

        5. If the Bible is “just a book,” it should not be uniquely excluded.

        6. If the Bible is more than “just a book,” it is to our folly to exclude it.

        7. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances” — The Bill of Rights

        8. “A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education” — Theodore Roosevelt

        9. “We cannot read the history of our rise and development as a nation, without reckoning with the place the Bible has occupied in shaping the advances of the republic.” — Franklin Roosevelt

        10. “I believe the Bible is the best gift God has given to man” – Abraham Lincoln

        As Ronald Reagan is honored with a statue in the Capitol Rotunda, I think of the Congressional Proclamation he applauded, signed and implemented, declaring 1983 as a national “Year of the Bible.” Here’s the text:

        Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people;

        Whereas deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation;

        Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the constitution of the United States;

        Whereas many of our great national leaders—among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, and Wilson—paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country’s development, as the words of President Jackson that the Bible is “the rock on which our Republic rests”;

        Whereas the history of our Nation clearly illustrates the value of voluntarily applying the teachings of the Scriptures in the lives of individuals, families, and societies;

        Whereas this Nation now faces great challenges that will test this Nation as it has never been tested before; and

        Whereas that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: Now, therefore, be it

        Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national “Year of the Bible” in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures

        • Black Flag says:

          BF your answer to our nations problems seems to me to be to “lay it down”.Don’t support the govt.Don’t pay taxes.Don’t vote.Or am I misunderstanding you?

          Yes, you are misunderstanding.

          I did not say the “nation’s problems” would be solved by laying down.

          I said the problem with government will be solved by not giving it energy.

          The nation’s problems will not be solved by government.

          That sounds good in principle if every citizen of the states were to do it but I hate to break it to ya’ here but it aint ever gonna’ happen.

          Every citizen won’t do what you want either – but you don’t make that a requirement of your plan? Why do you make it a requirement of mine?

          The left would love that.They would continue to vote and elect more radical members of government and we would continue to lose more of our liberty and freedoms.

          You really believe voting makes any difference?

          Congress is a cesspool of members with the type of moral character I personally am offended with.

          The people’s vote put these people in, yet you think voting is the answer.

          Take Barney Franks for instance.I am simply amazed a person that imbalanced could possibly be a representative of my nations governing system.How did that happen?

          Others like you put an X in a box.

          Pondering that question I have come to the conclusion that the only way he could be elected was because our society allowed him to be; by voting him in.

          Yet, that is the answer you think will solve the problem, not?

          …Bible…

          What moral code contained therein do you believe articulates what you want?

          • TexasChem says:

            Umm… how will we have a nation if we have no government?

            Voting does make a difference.At this time the bad guys just seem to be able to field a few more players in the game.

            Educating the public both scholastically and principally would increase the number of good guys.They would make decisions based upon what they feel is correct when voting so therefore they aren’t required to do what I want they are doing what THEY want.

            The moral codes the Bible contains are not only contained within its pages but countless other religions books as well as being passed down by word of mouth.There are many, many moral codes and I am not going to spend all night writing all of them on here.You understand the difference between right/wrong it’s just applying it.None of them impinge upon others freedoms nor do they condone violence so you should be ok with them BF.

            • Black Flag says:

              A nation exists independent of its government – it always causes problems when (to the favor of government) the two are thought to be the same.

              Voting has never made a difference. It’s like American Idol – no matter who you vote for – the song they are going to sing has already been chosen for you.

              We are the most educated people in history – didn’t help much.

              Education is not learning in not thinking.

              There is much in many texts that contain wisdom – but I’m asking what you see as the moral wisdom

    • Amazed1 says:

      People need to think….if for some reason today all the elected oficals walked out of DC and said “here folks it yours” The government would have to continue taxing….to pay the debt, there are so many people on hand outs that a good part of Americans would starve or freeze to death, our infrastructure would collasp and our military would not have any bullets. It is nice to say we are going to change things but there is no way it can happen over night. It will take years to get our government on any kind of different course….look how many years it took us to get here.

  26. Like BF said think out of the BOX, a very over used expression. Every time you ask question or reply here, you are using a tool which if used properly can be a gateway.

    Do not look at what BF said, look at what he did not say!!

    1. You have to be very very covert and stealthy

    2. do not run off at the mouth, keep your mouth shut!!!

    • Black Flag says:

      Covert and stealthy – that’s probably a bit of an exaggeration.

      2) – Yes – It is not a good idea to advertise. It attracts enemies.

      • SFC Dick says:

        “It is not a good idea to advertise. It attracts enemies.”

        Oh yeh, you betchya

        wanna have some fun, write a letter to some federal government official, express your concerns about the powers of government and subsequent loss of individual liberties (individual responsibilities) and use phrases that were used by our founding fathers that described the same and asked for relief.

        yeh, go ahead and do that and God help ya if you are a white man doing that as now you are a white supremeist/facist/neo nazi type.

  27. Bee in my Bonnet says:

    Is it just me, or is there a feeling that we are all living in the Matrix and BF is the “One”, trying to free as many human minds as possible from our simulated reality?

    • He is trying to find thinking people. IMO doing a good job of making the case.

  28. Robert R Smith says:

    Step away from the Box on your floor and unplug it, then you will begin to feel freedom.

  29. Texas Tirrell says:

    Bee in my Bonnet,

    I sometimes feel that way myself! BF definately makes me think and then rethink about the reasoning behind why I believe the way I do; and also why I do things the way I do them!

  30. Danak13 says:

    This is slightly off topic but I think related in the power struggle. This is something interesting:

    ALBANY, N.Y., June 9 (UPI) — New York state politics has been thrown into tumult by the defections of two senators to the Republican Party, analysts say.

    The surprise moves by the former Democrats, Pedro Espada Jr. of the Bronx and Hiram Monserrate of Queens, gave the GOP the majority in the state Senate with 32 seats and derailed the Democrats’ agenda with only two weeks left the legislative session in Albany, The New York Times reported.

    The pair’s defections threw power in the Senate back to the Republicans.

    New York Gov. David Paterson at a Monday news conference said the moves by the one-time Democrats were “an outrage,” declaring the Legislature had become a “dysfunctional wreck” and vowing, “I will not allow this,” although he acknowledged there was really nothing anyone could do.

    Question….why is it an outrage if this happens to the Democrats but a blessing when it happens to Republicans?

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