New Values to Old Ideals… Guest Commentary

guest-commentaryI come to another Friday night and the always popular guest commentary. As I have always said, I truly enjoy reading these and I value the effort that people put into writing about a subject that they believe in. Tonight we have a repeat guest in G.A. Rowe. I have to say that while he almost always has something to pick in the articles that I write, I also greatly respect that he sticks to his guns and doesn’t back down from a challenge. For anyone who isn’t familiar with him, G.A. believes in the Constitution, and defends it vigorously. And to say that he is a man of action, well that would be an understatement. A retired Marine, he is ready to again defend his country against a movement that he sees as harmful to the American ideals. And that is a trait that is rare in America these days, in a land of folks willing to accept the status quo rather than stand up for the rights that are being stripped from them….

For those who are not aware, G.A. also has a blog of his own. He writes on a regular basis and is an active participant on this and other blogs that espouse getting our country fixed. You can get to his site at Rowevings by G.A. Rowe . However, be aware that he is leaving for a vacation with his wife of 40 years and will not be offering any new articles there until the 20th of August or so. I am not even sure that he will be available to comment on his own guest commentary here. But I liked it, , it is relevant to the discussions we have been having all week, and I wanted it to be read by all. So with no further ado….

Applying 21st Century Values To Our 18th Century Constitution!
by G.A. Rowe

Just what is it that we Americans are looking for in and from our Government? Why is it that so many people have been, and continue to be apathetic when it comes to our individual role in maintaining and directing our government officials? I believe that it is because we cannot seem to convert our 18th Century Constitution into our 21st Century value of life ideals.

A simple statement for a complicated problem, yet the solution might be even simpler than we might think. It all has to do with understanding and comprehending what was written and the frame of mind of the original writers of our Declaration if Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, and the Constitution itself. I know that this sounds very complicated at the beginning, but trust me on this one thing – It is really not as complicated as it may sound.

The majority of the American public is riveted to one of three things in the average American household – Either the Home Computer, the Television Set, or the Cell Phone. In times past it used to be the Radio or the Newspaper, but the radio has been reduced to either Talk Radio or music and the Newspaper is rapidly being replaced by Internet News Sources. So that leaves Computers, Cell Phones, and Televisions.

By utilizing these three tools the general public can be brought up to speed on our obligations that the framers of our form of government have given us when they invented this governmental system.

The first thing that needs to be done is to enlist the assistance of informative Television hosts and web loggers to get the word out – once it starts, then the cell phone addicts will do their part without any encouragement from any outside sources.

During this part of the solution it is important that we all need to define our 21st Century Values and correlate them within our Constitution – Especially within the Bill Of Rights! This is essential in combating the general apathy that the American people seem to have become afflicted with. It is this very apathy that has allowed the currant President to achieve his “Messiah – like” stature among the majority of the population, including the now star-struck mainstream news media who almost unanimously have the attitude that he can do no wrong even as his policies are sending the entire nation headlong into the biggest politically driven economic train wreck that this world has ever seen.

So, what I am asking here is that those who frequent this web log to disseminate what our 21st Century values really are in relation to our 18th Century Constitution. This is not as hard as you may think, but it will require that you actually read and comprehend the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Preamble to the Constitution. It does not require that you read and understand all of the Federalist Papers since it is your individual 21st Century interpretation that is needed and not what you think the writers of the Federalist Papers originally meant back in their time. It is important that you decipher these documents in what they mean to you in our time since we are living here and now in the 21st Century.

Once that has been accomplished, and I do not believe that it will take very long at all, then you must begin to devise an actual plan to get the television hosts involved in getting the word out about what our Constitution actually means in 21st Century values. You can enlist all the help you need from the Internet and Internet E-Mail services that these Networks all utilize – this includes FaceBook, Twitter, YouTube and regular E-Mail services. If enough of us communicate to these networks in this manner – letting them know what the public is misunderstanding and overlooking, rather than engaging in “President Bashing” or “Congress Bashing” which is what the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck seem to delight in doing – then perhaps the general population will begin to understand on their own what is happening here.

Once people begin to connect our modern values to our Constitution they will realize and understand that we the people are the custodians of our system of government – And perhaps then the “Sleeping Giant” will awaken.

That, my friends, is what this idea and plan is intended to do.

Comments

  1. Thanks, USW, for posting my contribution . . .

    To every one else;

    We are going to be gone most of August, just roaming around to places we have never been before. I will post info on this trip on my blog when we get back, but not sure if we will have Internet access during our trip so that will be a hit or miss situation at best.

    Now about this post . . . What I would really like to see here is just what I said – all of you putting your 21st Century minds into our 18th Century Constitution. You need to answer the question “What does that document hold for me, and what does it mean in 21st Century values?”

    And this especially for Black Flag – I challenge you to not just discard this idea but to actually apply your very intelligent mind to that question. To be strictly honest about this, I am very interested in what your answer would be. Wether you or anyone else believes this or not, I hold your dissertations in high regard – even though I have often disagreed with you and have actually stuck a thorn in your side a time or two (as you also have done me) your take on the various subjects discussed here really do hold my interest. (Ya just need to learn to shorten things up a bit – I am elderly and have a tendency to nod off once or twice while reading those thousand page dissertations 😉 )

    I won’t be on the `puter today as much as I usually am since we are going to make a supply run into town, but will get on here tonight after we get back. I hope I will have some interesting reading to catch up on!

    • G.A.

      Good article, thanks for writing it. I agree and have shared your feelings that just revising the constitution and bill of rights would fix many of our problems. There are things our founders could not imagine, that would have to be addressed.
      US seems like a nice guy, but I’m not sure he ought to have an A bomb, as his view of the 2nd amendment seems to allow. Nor could they envision instant radio communication, air travel coast to coast in hours, etc..

      I think the founders would be outraged at what our government has become, that a person does not truly own property, just leases it from the government.

      Hope you and the misses enjoy the trip.

      Life’s a journey, not a destination.

      Areosmith

      • One thing I find quite amazing is that your constitution was written up by some of the finest orators of their day and a few among the finest thinkers of that age yet with so many able to twist words into whatever shape they desired chose such a simple thing as 11 pages of writing all could understand. How far from the tree that apple has fallen.

          • v. Holland says:

            That’s the truth, and it’s something that should go in reverse-we have too many laws-I doubt anyone actually knows what is illegal in this country until some lawyer or politician goes hunting to find something to make his case for him. I remember asking a question to a tax attorney once and he actually told me: the only way we can be sure what your obligation is, is to go to court and have the system tell us-can you believe that and this was a question about whether or not I had to pay a specific tax in another state that we do business with. Okay, this is my grievance #2-I don’t think the Constitution addresses the amount or length of bills but it should, and I’m sure that somehow we need to get rid of 3/4 of the laws on the books now.

    • Black Flag says:

      I’ll do that for you – but forewarned – you may not like my answers.

      Have a great trip!

  2. Richmond Spitfire says:

    Dear Mr. and Mrs. GA,

    I hope you have a wonderful time wandering about…If you get to the East Coast (Richmond, VA), look me up!

    Be safe, just not safe enough to ruin it!

    Best Regards,
    RS

  3. v. Holland says:

    I just reread the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution-obviously one rereading isn’t enough to make many grand statements but it did make me think. When they wrote the Declaration they wrote down their grievances against the King and then it seems from a quick reading that they used that list of grievances to help them write the Constitution. Perhaps we should do the same, sorta, I don’t mean declare our Independence 🙂 , but to declare our grievances and to state with our grievances what Constitutional Law or Article, whichever word is appropriate that our current government is raping. If we did this, we might even be able to use this list of grievances as an internet petition and get “we the People to sign it-Maybe it would help clarify what the problems are in relation to our Constitution so that we would have a better understanding of how to fix the problems. One of my grievances is that the Supreme Court seems to be totally party driven in their judgements-How can we fix this? Should the President pick the nominees, or should the process of confirmation of a judge be changed? etc. Anyway it’s just an idea

  4. Morning to all, G.A. has asked some good questions, and they require some thought. I read the Constitution just last week, and again this morning. I was looking for the nurerous way that Congress may have violated it and how to address it.

    We all know that those in D.C. are not listening, despite many of us phoning, emailing ect, they just do what they want (an example would be the bailout last fall, when the response by Americans was heavily “NO”, but they did it anyway).

    I will be thinking about all this as I do some yardwork and such, and will check in periodically. In the meantime, here’s a link that might stir some thought.

    http://pgportal.gov.in/

    G!

  5. Have a great trip GA……don’t do anything that I would not do…but if you do…do it twice and bring pictures…..have a great one. I read you article and will respond to it…I liked it. Good job.

  6. JayDickB says:

    To me, the intentions of the constitution were/are clear. But the words have been twisted into meanings never intended. This has happened because power-hungry politicians have persuaded others that there are urgent problems that they can fix and that the constitution means the exact opposite of what it says.

    I sometimes don’t agree with Black Flag’s bottom line, but his posts contain many jewels of wisdom, one of which was something along the lines of:

    Not every problem requires a solution.

    I think he also said that the solution is often worse than the problem. To that I would add “very few problems require government solutions”.

    If we could persuade lots of people of these simple truths, our country would be much better off.

    I agree with Black Flag’s thesis that if we started over with the original constitution, we would eventually end up pretty much where we are now. I’m just not sure exactly what we should start over with (if we could, of course). I’m still trying to really understand what our world would be like under Black Flag’s view of little if any government. I haven’t rejected it, but I haven’t accepted it either.

  7. Black Flag says:

    I’ve written plenty about the challenge of any Constitution

    Briefly:

    – The government enforces it upon itself. Therefore, it will always select the most lenient understanding to its benefit.

    – There is no means for the people to enforce the Constitution on the government – short of violent overthrow.

    “Just what is it that we Americans are looking for in and from our Government?”

    So, tossing away any definition of government, let’s ask this:

    “Just what is it that we People are looking for in and from our Society?”

    -Room to exercise my freedom-

    Why is it that so many people have been, and continue to be apathetic when it comes to our individual role in maintaining and directing our government officials?

    Because after 300 years, it is obvious that there never existed any means by which the citizens could possibly control the government.

    Like in any cult, the closer the disciple are to the founder, the greater the adherence to the founder’s principles.

    And like any cult, the further in time and generations from the founder, the greater the drift from those principles.

    Additionally, if the cult is successful, it attracts an every growing cadre of followers – who have wealth and ability – that can be used to enrich those in power within the cult.

    The further in time, the founder principles are forgotten and power becomes the ends that all the means is applied within the cult.

    The Constitution, initially, survived only because its disciple where within a generation or so from its founding – they were the ‘believers’ – they actually tasted the koolaid.

    Today, past Lincoln, the Constitution in intent has been discarded for a Constitution of interpretation with the interpreters – no surprise – the government.

    The public today (contrary to a constant belief) actually does involve themselves even more in politics then in the 18th Century!

    In the 18th Century, a man spent almost all of his life totally uninvolved with the government – because it actions didn’t apply to him or his life. He was unlucky to only have to see government to pay a minor tax -which he hated-.

    Even war (up to Civil War) did not involve the vast majority of the people.

    Today, almost every aspect of life has government – people are orders of magnitude more involved then ever in history.

    However that involvement is not control but of consumption.

    It is a high-stakes game of who can rip off who with government as the weapon. Spin the bottle, and if you are lucky enough you get the loot.

    Until the core of the mass of people decide to quit playing this game, the game of government will get more worse and perverse.

    Until people understand government, they will not stop playing the game.

    • BF, well written. At this point in time, I think the government is on a fast pace to destroy itself. Personnally, I wouldn’t mind helping them along. Through long ago discussions, it isn’t the masses that will fix this, but eventually the remnant.

      To fix this, should we not remove it first?

      G!

    • OK BF, I’m understanding you through this explanation, but I’m of similar mind to JDB above that I can’t envision the world you talk about. Don’t know if I’m just naive, unimaginative or both. I just need more….

  8. I have to agree with you G.A.. The Constitution is not the problem with the Nation. The Government not following the Constituion is the problem. We The People part of it has been forgotten.

    Too many times I see our politicians trying or actually suceeding in finding ways to circumvent the Constitution for their own profit. Too many times I have seen our Constitution ignored and totally Unconstitutional Laws made and enforced( ex. AIG, GM, Chrysler)

    These types of laws should be thrown out but will not because the SCOTUS is in the pocket of the President who wants them to stay. BTW the politicians should be thrown out the door right along with the laws they have made.

  9. Black Flag says:

    Note on the Gettysburg Address

    by H.L. Mencken

    The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history…the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases.

    Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous.

    But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it.

    Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth.

    It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue.

    The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.

    • True to the core, BF! I have posted before, we may agree on the end result, but getting there we disagree. You chose to “not feed the beast” and I would choose to “kill the beast”.

      So, on different ends of a light spectrum, and both I don’t think will work in our lifetime, your thinking is no action, mine is ultimate action. Both will never achieve the goal, how can we get to the middle of the spectrum and achieve the goal?

      G!

  10. G.A.

    I hope you and your wife have a wonderful trip, no matter where you end up at. Wherever you go, there you are.

    I don’t know if the values of today correlate to the values of the 18th century. I mean, what are the values of today anyway? Are you talking constitutionally, or just plain old values?

    If you’re talking governmental, then this government doesn’t have any morals or values to it, and it doesn’t matter what kind you’re speaking of. What I see is this government wants to change it to suit their needs as they see fit. If they want to revise some of it, fine, but do it in a way that will benefit the people, not them.

    The government of today is power hungry, greedy and doesn’t care one iota about it’s people. They only seem to care about themselves and how to take control of our lives in every aspect of it.

    I think our founding fathers are probably rolling over in their graves at what’s happening to this country. If they only knew what was to become of this nation over 200 years ago, they might not have written the constitution the way they did, I don’t know.
    But, I’m sure they would be shocked to see what has happened to it.

    That’s my feeling on it anyway for right now. Have to do some more thinking here on things, and try and express myself better in a way I can even understand, if that makes any sense at all.

    • Hi Judy, Hope today finds you well!

      G!

      • Hi G

        Yes, today finds me well, just tired. Had a busy week at work. Now, I’m doing my son’s laundry since he’s at drill this weekend, and he doesn’t have any laundry facilities at his new apt. It’s okay, he does things for me when he’s here, so it works out.

        My oldest has to go to Arkansas tomorrow for 2 weeks for hazmat training. Then he’ll be home for a few days, then goes to Utah for some different kind of training for something, I can’t remember. He’ll be in Utah for 2 weeks there, so he won’t be home much this month. In fact, he won’t be here for his 27th birthday.

        How is the day treating you G? Hope all is going well with you too.
        Hey, I tried emailing that request to USW, but it didn’t go through, came back saying it wasn’t acceptable or something to that effect. Maybe you can and will have better luck. There was something my son wanted me to ask you, but this isn’t the place for it. Not sure how you would take it, or what your answer would be. Let’s get this email thing straightened out first, then I’ll ask you, okay.

        Judy

        • Judy, I really don’t care if my E-mail address is known to the folks on this site. I use my personnal address for work than my work address, and my systems are well protected. I hope that I’m not violating some rule here but if I am it will be filtered I would imagine. its: gfrc2@aol.com. And I welcome anyone to here to use it to contact me. I can filter the BS.

          G!

          • Thank you G, I wrote it down so I won’t forget it. I’m almost embarrassed to give you mine, but what the heck. Mind you now, my son’s made this up for me, and I will explain how I got the name. Mine is

            judybirdmom@gamil.com

            I got the name of bird mom a long time ago when my son’s and a friend of my oldest was on a bowling team. One of them got 3 strikes in a row, and Greg, my son’s friend said, look, that look likes your mom when she gets mad. It was a turkey with it’s eyes wide open looking surprised and if I’m not mistaken, it was even wearing glasses.

            So, that’s how I got the name of bird mom. Not only that one, but I have several more that fit that category. Ready, here goes. We have, turkey bird mom, gobbles, mommels, drib auta, that’s bird backwards, the auta, my son’s made up, and how I can I forget this one, Farm bird. I don’t even look like a turkey, but the name stuck throughout these last 10 years or so. So, there you have it. Nice huh.

            BTW, I don’t want any smart a$$ remarks from anybody here either. Please. Thank you.

            Judy

            • That’s wonderful! No remarks needed, You have a loving family, and that’s what is important

              • Thanks G, I sure do.
                My son’s said if they didn’t love me like they do, they wouldn’t tease me the way they do.

                They like to pull jokes on me every so often, even my husband will pull a fast on me.

                A couple weeks ago, My car was kind of shaking when you step on the gas, and so did my steering wheel, kinda of veered to left.

                I told him I didn’t like the way it was handling, thought maybe I needed a front end alignment, or my wheels aligned. So he took it down for me, and after a couple hours, he called me up, and said you better sit down for this. I said, oh great now what.

                He told me that they found something else wrong, and it was going to cost me something like$700 to get fixed. Well, you know what hit the fan. I was mad, and very upset.

                Dirty rat was just kidding me, only needed my tires balanced. He was laughing pretty hard, but I wasn’t. I told him that wasn’t funny, because I Just had the right side fixed after my car was plowed into.

                Oh, there’s more stories at what these guys have done to me. But that’s at another time.

                They all said, they wouldn’t know what they wouldn’t know what they’d do without me. I told them, yea, nobody else would do your laundry for you. LOL

                Judy

              • Hey G

                I sent you an e-mail, want to go and see if you got it or not. While you’re at it, let me know what you think, okay. But not here, on my e-mail address.

                Thanks Judy

            • Richmond Spitfire says:

              Hey Judy,

              Do you mind if I had you to my girlfriends email distribution list? I never send out “dirty” stuff…

              Thanks,
              RS

  11. Judy, replied to your e-mail. You have some great kids. Thats because of you!!!

    G!

    • To add, never feel like your are below anyone, and an e-mail address is certainly not cause. Believe in who you are and what you believe in. You are what you choose to be, not what others think you should be. Fear is your biggest enemy, remove it from your life, and your will be much happier!

      G!

      • Hi G

        We just got back from dinner. We went to an Italian place called Corino’s and it was great. I had Eggplant parmigiana, and it was delicious. It’s the only place in town that has it, one of my favorites.

        I’m glad yo answered my e-0mail, haven’t read it yet, but I going to as soon as I get through here. I don’t feel like I’m below anyone, was just kind of embarrassed by my e-mail address, there is only one other person who knows what it is, and that’s my oldest son’s best friend.

        Not to sound like Popeye here or anything but I am what I am, and I don’t let anyone tell me otherwise. If people don’t like the way I am,or the things I do, then you know what G., that’s there problem. I don’t dress in the latest fashions, or drive a fancy car, or even live a fancy house. I am do things that I feel right for me. I’m not out to impress anyone, and if they don’t like the way I do things or the way I talk, or the way I dress, then it’s their loss.

        My boys mean more to me than anything else in the world. If I didn’t have them, I really don’t know what I would do. When Matthew was in Iraq 5 years ago, and fighting that Al Sadar and his men, we didn’t hear from him for 3 weeks, and I was just beside myself. Didn’t know if he was a live or dead or what, until he called me from the field. I think my biggest fear G is losing one or both of them.

        My family is very important to me and they always come first, then anything else can come along, but they are my number one priority, no matter how old they are.

        I have my mother living with us, and she’s been here for 11 months now. Sure it can be trying because of her Dementia, but I have come to learn to keep my patients a little better. She can drive me absolutely nuts sometimes, but I guess that’s all part of it. Since my dad died 11 years ago, she has become very dependent on me and my husband and the boys. But you know what G, I wouldn’t have it any other way. I will not put her in one of those homes, because you never know what kind of care she will get. At least this, I can keep my eye on her to make sure nothing happens to her.

        Okay, I’m going to go read your e-mail now. Will get back to you in a bit.
        ‘Judy

        • Family First! No matter what! I’m with ya on that!

          G!

          • I answered your e-mail, you might want to go read it. If I don’t make any sense in some of my writings, it’s because I noticed that I have a tendency to either leave words out, or I just don’t spell right.

            • Read it, let my daughter in on it as well. She grinned from ear to ear!!LOL

              I’ll dial you number tomaorrow afternoon, lets say after 4pm est and before 6pm est. I’d love to here your husbands views on the site as well. Thanks for being a true American!

              G!

              • I don’t let him on here. This is my domain dammit LOL. He has his space, and I have mine, and this is it. His space is at the Atlantis Casino, and I don’t go bug him there. He knows this is what I like to do, so he leaves me alone. In fact him and both my son’s tease me constantly about being on here too much.

                Okay, gotta go for sure now.

                Good night G.

                Judy

            • Got your reply, daughter seems intriged LOL. Will try to contact tomorrow
              G!

            • Well G, I’m going to go for the night, I’m done in. I have about 150 things to do tomorrow, but I will check in periodically, and see if you’re here. I will also check my e-mail and see if you answered me there.

              So until then, keep a smile on your face, and song in your heart.

              Judy

  12. TexasChem says:

    Finished up a project at work and went on vacation.
    Back from vacation and at work now and *sigh* ; back on another project.
    Seems like I do not have enough time in the day to accomplish everything I need to do.
    Even while on vacation I kept thinking of matters that needed taken care of back home.

    Took my family to visit my wifes family in Mandeville, Louisiana.Went out on Lake Pontchartrain swimming and skiing.
    Enjoyed our time visiting with her brother and sisters’ families out at the pool eating shrimp kabobs, fried shrimp, grilled shrimp, popcorn shrimp, shrimp stew, shrimp scampi… I sound like Bubba from Forest Gump ehh? I am all shrimped out!

    It never ceaces to amaze me the cultural differences amongst the different geographical areas
    of our great nation.Half the time while in La. I could not understand the locals because some had a very strong Cajun accent mixing in French words with their English.Of course I have a deep southeast Texas drawl so maybe they had a hard time understanding me too ehh?Very friendly people once they accept you as family.A bit too adept at showing physical emotion though!In SE Texas I don’t greet my brothers wife by kissing her as her brothers wife did me.Nor do my brothers kiss my wife as her cousins and friends did.Kinda’ wanted my three feet of personal space!I told her brother when I got back to Texas I was going to lobby my state representative to put up a wall between Texas and Louisiana to keep them from contaminating our gene pool! LOL just kidding 🙂

    When we got back to Texas we went to the Woodlands Resort and relaxed with our kids for a couple of days.Galveston with my brother and his family was on the itinerary when we got back home and we stayed on the beach a while sipping cold beer and taking his boat out past the Jetties fishing.Very relaxing time and now I’m back hard at work again.

    Will try to catch up on past reading and finish the guest commentary I started soon.
    Have a great evening folks and heres a great big HOWDY from the Lonestar state.Ya’ll take care!

    • Glad you enjoyed your vacation! Sucks to be back to the same old work BS, don’t it? But at least we are earning our way.

      Peace!

      G!

    • Welcome back T

      Oh God, your post made me laugh. Don’t know if it was meant to be that way or what, but sure did tickle me.

      Isn’t that the way it is when you go one vacation. Your think about things when you’re at work enough as it is. But for crying out loud, you’re not suppose to think about work when you’re on vacation, you are suppose to relax and have fun.

      Again, welcome back.

      Judy

    • The next time you are in the Mandeville area, or are planning to be there, let me know…I live in Madisonville…very close. Would like to put a face with some of the folks on here…

  13. Okay folks, here I are, like mighty mouse to save the day . . .

    I sure hope that you all come back here tomorrow to see what I have had to say about your comments on my guest post.

    Some will like it, and most will not. 😦

    I will start off with my friend Black Flag;

    As I expected, BF skirted the entire post and thought I had asked him to challenge the Constitution . . . or so one would think after reading his remarks, or maybe that is just me failing to communicate my request properly to him. “You need to answer the question “What does that document hold for me, and what does it mean in 21st Century values?”” “And this especially for Black Flag – I challenge you to not just discard this idea but to actually apply your very intelligent mind to that question.” . . . . . I really don’t seem to see how I could have made that any more clear of a request.

    His answer, as I see it; “I’ll do that for you – but forewarned – you may not like my answers.” Okay so far, but; “I’ve written plenty about the challenge of any Constitution

    Briefly:

    – The government enforces it upon itself. Therefore, it will always select the most lenient understanding to its benefit.

    – There is no means for the people to enforce the Constitution on the government – short of violent overthrow.

    “Just what is it that we Americans are looking for in and from our Government?”

    So, tossing away any definition of government, let’s ask this:

    “Just what is it that we People are looking for in and from our Society?”

    -Room to exercise my freedom-” . . . . . Not quite a direct answer, and just a little cryptic to boot if one would ask me. Why? I asked to apply 21st Century values to our 18th Century Constitution, NOT challenge any constitution. Therefore Black Flag my friend, I cannot accept your answer because all you did was reiterate your position AGAINST any form of government – and that clearly was not the question.

    There will be much more on this a little further down in this reply.

    But for now I will address the other answers and comments;

    From LOI; “I agree and have shared your feelings that just revising the constitution and bill of rights would fix many of our problems. There are things our founders could not imagine, that would have to be addressed.
    US seems like a nice guy, but I’m not sure he ought to have an A bomb, as his view of the 2nd amendment seems to allow. Nor could they envision instant radio communication, air travel coast to coast in hours, etc..

    I think the founders would be outraged at what our government has become, that a person does not truly own property, just leases it from the government.” . . . In looking at the Second Amendment you have to take into consideration what was the cutting edge in weaponry at the time of its ratification – and that was the smooth bore muzzle loading musket which our founders decided that we the people had the right to own and bare without infringement. As with the nuclear weaponry of today, not everyone could afford to own a firearm, much less know how to use one. The most common weapon for personal use at that time would have been a very strong and very sharp knife. Yet still, the common city dweller did not even carry a knife . . . How many individuals do you know who can afford to purchase a nuclear weapon – assuming that one could be purchased at all? I would have to side with USW on that one if only on the practicality of the issue – Yet those who know me personally know that I have long been an advocate of each and every law abiding adult to have the RIGHT to carry a concealed firearm anywhere in this country, and that the Federal Government should provide the proper training for the correct use and safe handling of those firearms.

    About the travel and communications advancements – you are right there, except that the first amendment provided for our security against government censorship and intrusion into our communication devices. The high tech mass communication of their day was the printing press and that was safeguarded by our formers of the Constitution, and that basic safeguard should be enforced t all mass communication devices of this modern age. For no other reason that each radio, television and computer has a device to change stations and websites not to mention an on-off switch. Radio and television programs are AD driven – if that particular program does not get enough people to watch it, then the advertiser will pull his commercials from it and then it will be canceled thereby negating any reason for censorship laws. We can purchase certain programs for our computers that will prevent it from accessing certain websites that contain anything that we might find personally objective thereby negating any government based controls or laws censoring any kind of content out there on the web.

    To Alan F and V Holland;

    I thank you two for some insightful and informative remarks. Alan, I went to that website and have given it a once over – it seems right up my alley. I will post something on it after my vacation on my blog.

    G-man; Thank you for the link, again I found it a very interesting one and I will post something on my blog about it when I get back – interesting concept indeed!

    To JDB; Yes, I have a tendency to agree with BF and his idea that not every problem requires a government solution, as a matter of fact I believe that the less government gets involved with our everyday living the better off we will be – we do not need to be protected from ourselves all that much, just from those who wish to make their own kind of laws as they go along to whatever their mood suits them . . . you know, like anarchists 😉

    To Judy S; Try putting YOUR personal 21st Century values to our 18th Century Constitution and see what you can come up with. Would your results require some Amendments to it or not?

    Now for the folks who strayed WAYYYYYYY off topic here today; I feel that what you accomplished was to turn others who might have commented away, but there is no way of knowing for sure. I know that I sound like a cantankerous old geezer here by making that comment, but I did ask a specific question in the guest post. I am not angry by any means, just a tad disappointed . . . 😦 Nuff said.

    Now for the rest of what I have to say about this topic as I stated to BF earlier in this comment;

    I would like all of who read this to understand one tiny little tidbit of information about me before you read on – I am an ex-cop, during my working years I and those who I worked with came into contact (on a daily, and sometimes hourly, basis with the dregs of the earth. We in law enforcement throughout the entire world see more of the bottom dwellers and bottom feeders of society within an eight or twelve hour shift than most decent folks do in a lifetime – well at least a decade! Suffice it to say that I know to what depths of degradation that some Humans sink to when they believe that no one cares or is watching. Please, just take my word on that.

    When the Soviet Union set the Iron Curtain up after WW2, there was an area that we now know as Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Macedonia, and Albania. In this area the iron fist of the Soviet Union kept a tight control over the residents for many decades, and the people lived together side by side in a Soviet enforced peace. Then when the Soviet Union collapsed and the area began separating into different political regions, all hell broke loose – and I mean that literally. People of different religious ethnicity who had lived side by side – many even working together – for decades suddenly turned on their neighbor in such a viciousness that had not been seen since the Nazi death camps. There was even a military type of dictatorship that went out and rounded up thousands of people who were of a different religious ethnicity and just slaughtered them for no other reason than their religion. Entire families, actually entire communities just vanished overnight. Sickening thought, isn’t it?

    Now for a look at an area of the United States that I am all too familiar with. Southern California. In the large cities there we have something known to the general public as “Gangs”. Among other nefarious acts, these gangs quite often do things like drive by shootings, executions of rival gang members, and home invasion robberies. As reported with way too much regularity, the drive by shootings usually end up killing innocent people rather than the intended victim – quite often a child. The rival gang member execution usually includes the victims currant girlfriend as that is when the individuals are at their most vulnerability. She is usually gang raped in front of the intended victim and then executed first, followed by the standard Hollywood-style execution of the victim and both left out in an ally somewhere within that rival gangs territory for all to see. This usually results back into more drive-by’s and more executions – on and on and on and on! Home invasions also end up with the victims being beaten and/or raped or both – sometimes killed after the rape and beatings just to show the rest of the neighborhood what will happen if they resist. This type of behavior, I have been told, usually happens within large cities throughout this country. Law enforcement battles this kind of thing each and every day of our working careers. Contrary to what you may see on the nightly talking heads that surpasses for the nightly news, this really is confined to certain general areas that the residents for some reason or another refuse to ask for law enforcement help, or refuse to assist law enforcement in identifying the gang members for fear of retaliation.

    Think about this – If government just went away (like in those former Soviet Bloc Countries mentioned above) like BF and other self proclaimed anarchists would like it to, just what do you think might happen in this once peaceful country?

    Folks, I submit to you that no government ever has been perfect – including ours. No government will ever be perfect – including ours. No matter how much we strive to make any government perfect – that will never happen, EVER! All we can do is keep a tight control over our government – and that control was built into that 11 page document called The Constitution of The United States.

    Read it. Find those controls, and USE THEM!

    Thank you for your indulgence and patience. Typing this has been somewhat of a labor as I only type 16 WPM and that is before correcting typos and misspellings. Fact. I always told my Watch Commanders that I was good at catching bad guys – just not so good at typing . . . and after they observed my handwriting, they opted for my slow typing . . . 🙂

    Night all!

    • “Think about this – If government just went away (like in those former Soviet Bloc Countries mentioned above) like BF and other self proclaimed anarchists would like it to, just what do you think might happen in this once peaceful country?”

      Read up the Hells Angels war with the Rock Machine in Montreal circa 1994 and picture it on a national scale stateside. Wasn’t just a bunch of stoned kids doing an ammo dump out of a car window. Its a whole other animal when the adult wolves come out to mark their territory.

  14. TexasChem says:

    Ouch G.A.
    I feel guilty for straying off topic with my post!
    To make it up to ya’ when I wake up this evening (I’m working nights this week) I shall attempt to rewrite our Constitutional amendments to apply to this century as I feel they should be worded.Concise and to the point, with no possible way of misinterpreting them!

    Societies values since the 18th century have degraded in some areas and upgraded in others so applying todays values should prove interesting!

    • Oh don’t worry about it, TC, pobody’s nerfect – meast of all le 😉

      Although I would like to see what your take on all this is. It might be interesting. I won’t be hanging around much this month as we are escaping the hottest summer Arizona has seen in quite a while. Going “underground”, I think!

  15. I found a couple things of interest concerning the development of a civilization, regardless of the form of gov’t.

    The first:

    The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

    2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

    3. From courage to liberty;

    4. From liberty to abundance;

    5. From abundance to complacency;

    6. From complacency to apathy;
    *It has been suggested that this is where the USA currently finds itself
    7. From apathy to dependence;

    8. From dependence back into bondage

    Sir Alex Fraser Tyler: (1742-1813) Scottish jurist and historian

    The second:

    Quigley’s analysis (using his six features) led him to conclude that civilizations tend to emerge, grow, decline, and fall in a specific and observable sequence of stages:

    1. Mixture
    2. Gestation
    3. Expansion
    4. Age of Conflict
    5. Universal Empire
    6. Decay
    7. Invasion

    There’s also this one:
    http://www.energybulletin.net/node/40919

    and I had actually heard another one but could not find anything on it, this speaker had said that the average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history was 300 years.
    1. Formation
    2. Growth
    3. Sustain
    4. Decay
    5. The Fall

    I believe we are at the very end of step 3 and entering step 4, or possibly fully into step 4.

    • Ed, If we can stop the dependence part, do you think the cycle can be broken?

      G!

      • No. Yes. Maybe. Sort of. See below.

        This is from Quigley’s analysis (second part of my original post):

        http://www.draftymanor.com/bart/h_quigl3.htm

        This, not incidentally, is the aspect of Quigley’s concept of civilizational development that truly sets him apart from Spengler. In contrast to Spengler’s deterministic view, in which a civilization is doomed from the moment it comes into being, Quigley asserts that any civilization can survive indefinitely, just as long as it keeps reforming or circumventing its institutionalized instruments of expansion.

        Members of civilizations, Quigley says, have a choice. If they act in one way, they return to expansion; if they voluntarily choose another way, they step onto the road that leads to empire and extinction. This non-deterministic “if-then-else” structure seems intuitive to, say, a computer programmer, but it is a remarkable insight for a historian, scientist or no, to perceive in a long-duration human organization such as a civilization.

        This process of reform, circumvention, or vested interest success takes place during the wars of imperialism in Stage 4, the Age of Conflict. Once a single peripheral state has imposed its political structure over the whole civilization, a universal empire has been achieved. With the cessation of hostilities, an apparent Golden Age ensues.

        This is later regarded as a time of peace and prosperity. There is peace because there are no more political opponents. And there is prosperity derived from relaxing internal trade barriers, instituting common systems of measurement and coinage, and increasing domestic government spending to maintain what is felt should be the proper appearance of a universal empire.

        But these things prove illusory. The peace is the calm of exhaustion, and the prosperity is the burning of internal resources to maintain a standard of living that cannot long be supported. Without an instrument of expansion, there is little if any innovation to replace the wealth being spent on unproductive consumption and gigantic monuments (such as the Pyramids, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, and the Colosseum).

        In Quigley’s memorable phrase: “The golden age is really the glow of overripeness, and soon decline begins.”

      • My personal opinion is that the train of selfishness has too much momentum and cannot be stopped until it is derailed, that is when the fall begins.

        I think in the end you will see “socialism” as the defacto gov’t used throughout the world. Not true socialism but a freely elected democracy that is trying to pretend it is not socialism.

        Actually, I’m thinking that within 100 years we will have a world government and a world currency. All dissenters will be punished, death tolls will rise and the Lemmings will claim utopia is only a step away if we could only get rid of the dissenters. One man to rule them all – one man to crush them all in the name of peace and prosperity. If you’re a Bible reader you know that this portends the rise of the Anti-Christ.

    • Edward;

      That is not a scientific certainty as we Humans are not pre-programmed machines who are set to self destruct at set intervals. No, we Humans are not by any means perfect, and neither are any of our forms of government. I, for one, do not believe that this form of government that we now have in this country is a dead horse. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

      FYI – I have seen that e-mail about the cycle of the rise and fall of society’s some time ago and I vaguely recall something a friend sent me about it being kind of bogus. Don’t know where you got your info from, but you might want to research it some more. At least dig a little deeper. I just tried to find something else on it and can’t seem to pull anything up on google – but then my `puter skills really aren’t that great.

      Thanks for the input.

      • “FYI – I have seen that e-mail about the cycle of the rise and fall of society’s some time ago and I vaguely recall something a friend sent me about it being kind of bogus. Don’t know where you got your info from, but you might want to research it some more. At least dig a little deeper.”

        I was somewhat skeptical myself until I found similar theories listed over several different locations, each stating similar things. Two books discuss it: The Decline of the West by Oswald Spengler and The Evolution of Civilizations by Carroll Quigley.

        “That is not a scientific certainty as we Humans are not pre-programmed machines who are set to self destruct at set intervals. No, we Humans are not by any means perfect, and neither are any of our forms of government. I, for one, do not believe that this form of government that we now have in this country is a dead horse. Not by any stretch of the imagination.”

        Would you be willing to say that history repeats itself? The Roman Empire was a Republic and look what happened. The USA is following a similar pattern IMO. I believe that our fall will not take centuries like the Roman Empire did though, our gov’t has much more control over the information being spread to the masses than any in history.

        I support the contention that the gov’t will continue to expand its scope and powers. I can’t name a single presidental regime that did not expand the powers of government within the last 100 years, maybe even since the beginning of the country.

        Our system of gov’t was flawed from the beginning, if more limits would have been placed on gov’t in the beginning it may have helped. But likely it would have only slowed down the eroding of the constitution and the growth of gov’t influence and power.

        • …also. When the Roman empire was finished a lot of the inhabitants were happy about it because their standard of living actually increased due to the gov’t not sucking away all of the food and money. National/international infrastructure fell apart though. The causes for the fall were numerous – Decay, barbarians, inflation, Christianity, lead poisoning, economic decline, dividing of the empire, trade deficits, lack of expansion.

        • Black Flag says:

          I agree with many of your points, Edward – but not your conclusion.

          I believe that the extent of government has reached its peak. It’s ability to project violence from a center of power is collapsing – not expanding.

          Technology and information have always been the catalyst to free men. Magna Carta had the long bow, and the Reformation had the printing press. The American Revolution had the printing press and the long rifle.

          Today, the Individual has the personal fiances, arms, and information that is without any parallel in human history.

          The more powerful the individual, the greater the human freedom. The individual has never had the opportunity to reach for his freedom – if he wants it.

          Does he want it?

          • Black Flag says:

            The individual has never had the such an opportunity to reach for his freedom – if he wants it.

  16. Good Morning to all!!

    G.A., sorry about getting off topic last night, you may give me ten lashes with a wet noodle at your convenience (LOL).

    You make a good point against anarchism, very well put.

    The gang issue I see alittle different. I asked a cop why they can’t go in these areas a erradicate the gang members a few years ago, his answer was that they weren’t allowed because it would be considered murder. Funny how that moral law is there to protect the law abiding citizens, but also there to protect the criminals!! Let’s say that L.A. and the Feds secretly suspended that law for a short period of time, and allowed for the removal of all gang members by the use of deadly force. This will never happen ofcourse, because the gangs legitmize governments being! Without government interference, chaos would certainly happen, and eventually the gangs would take over the inner cities. In time, resources in the city would be depleated (food) and they would be forced out, and once out, they would likely be wiped out in the name of self defense. There would be a large loss of population, and a new government would be established, despite the black flags of the world.

    Sounds crazy, but in the event of a major economic collapse, or hyperinflation, it is a possibility.

    Now, back to the subject of trying to control our out of control government. The link I provided is possibly the only legal avenue we the people have. I’ve been rattling my small brain for along time on how to fight the cap and trade mess and now the healthcare disaster that is likely to occur. It’s a rainy day today, so I’m going to spend some time on this and present my ideas here to get some opinions.

    G!

  17. After some lengthy reading, here are some of my thoughts.

    1. Utilizing our right to redress our gievences to the govt. (Linked in my first post), here are some of my grievences that I propose:

    a: The preamble to the Constition states “promote the General Welfare”. Using this term as written, the Healthcare reform legislation, if passed and signed into law, would be unconstitutional as the “general welfare” in now being forced upon the people. Key word here is “promote”. As an example, I can promote the hiring of my business to provide you with a service, but I cannot force you to hire said business.

    b. Seperation of power within the three branches of Government have been violated by a majority of one politiical party in both the Legislative Branch and Administrative Branch being one and the same, therefore making all legislation passed under these conditions, null and void.

    I’ll add some more later. In the meantime, rip me from limb to limb, stone me, and basically hurt my feelings while attacking all of this.

    G!

    • No whippings for you G!

      You have done EXACTLY what I intended my guest post readers to do, and that is read the document and put your thinking cap on and apply our 21st Century Values to our 18th Century Constitution! KUDOS to you for that. Now spread the word to as many people as you can, the more folks that understand that – and believe me when I say that to each of us there is a very different and meaningful understanding of the difference in the values – our 21st Century values DO apply to our 18th Century Constitution a helluva lot more than most folks think!

      I have come t think that the reason that the DC crowd has been getting away with all this progressive BS is because the common folk have believed since the turn of the 19th to the 20th Century – erroneously – that our Constitution is outdated, and that belief is dead wrong!

      It has become our , well at least my, job to correct that belief.

      • G.A., Based on the grievences above, utilizing the link to the proper place to put them in motion, would you agree with the premise of the grievences as written, and should this appraoch be used?

        I think alot of folks here want to take some form of action, even if that action may be useless, or maybe very effective.

        G!

        • This is almost my last post til I get back from vacation.

          If we actually had a mechanism for grievance redress – not just the voting booth each four years of so – and the government ACTUALLY addressed our grievances instead of gaffing us off as they do now, then it would be a viable solution.

          However, the words “Dream On” seem to come to mind as far as this congress and administration is concerned.

    • JayDickB says:

      I see nothing in the preamble that conveys any powers to government. The preamble seems to me to describe objectives of the constitution, but the powers that can be used to achieve those objectives are limited to those enumerated.

      I think the biggest faults in the constitution are:

      1. The commerce clause – it has been twisted and misused worse than any other power.

      2. There is no limitation on the supreme court. We all know what idiocy they have inflicted on us.

      If we were starting over, I would very severely limit the power of the central government, even more so than the original constitution. We might still end up more or less where we are, but our odds would be better.

      • JDB, The preamble, is the directive that both empowers and limits government. The articles simply further explain in detail.

        The main point of bringing up the “promote the general welfare” has merit based on language used in Article IV, which does not use the word “promote”. This is where the government, in my opinion, does not have the power to legislate “for the general welfare” of the people, that should fall under Article X. I’m using my knowledge of of labor disputes, where Management has tried (and failed) to apply language from one article to another. An example of why I believe this is simple, if language from one law can be applied to another law of a different subject, then what would stop the system from applying the “sentenced to death” language to a convicted shoplifter?

        G!

        • Good thought Gman…but I bet there are 9 judges who will disagree with us.

          • I never assume, at least I try hard not too! A single word ommitted from a similar sentence changes it’s meaning, and confirms the other. Contract law at it’s simplest.

  18. v. Holland says:

    Could someone please help me understand why this amendment was passed -I’ve read the reasoning but I don’t understand the reasoning? It seems to put people at the mercy of State government for no reason other than the State governments didn’t like being sued, if there is a legitimate reason for this amendment please explain what it is? I’m thinking maybe this Amendment should go?????

    Amendment 11 – Judicial Limits

    <>

    The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.

    Amendment 11 – Judicial Powers construed.

    This Amendment was designed to prevent a citizen of one state from bringing suit against another state in federal court, modifying Article 3, Section 2, Clause 1. Over time, it has also been construed to prevent citizens of a state from bringing their own state to federal court. 11th Amendment law is in a resurgence in the 1990’s as several Supreme Court cases make their mark (see the Current News Page).

    Article 3 Section 2 – Trial by Jury, Original Jurisdiction, Jury Trials

    (The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.) (This section in parentheses is modified by the 11th Amendment.)ection 2 – Trial by Jury, Original Jurisdiction, Jury Trials

    (The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.) (This section in parentheses is modified by the 11th Amendment.)

  19. Black Flag says:

    As I expected, BF skirted the entire post and thought I had asked him to challenge the Constitution . . . or so one would think after reading his remarks, or maybe that is just me failing to communicate my request properly to him.

    Good sir, the question of your post was:
    “Just what is it that we Americans are looking for in and from our Government? Why is it that so many people have been, and continue to be apathetic when it comes to our individual role in maintaining and directing our government officials?”

    So I believe I answered those questions directly above.

    I asked to apply 21st Century values to our 18th Century Constitution, NOT challenge any constitution. Therefore Black Flag my friend, I cannot accept your answer because all you did was reiterate your position AGAINST any form of government – and that clearly was not the question.

    As I said, I answered the question posed.

    To answer the additional question about 21st Century values to the 18th Century Constitution….

    We are not an 18th Century people.

    Consider – do you demand that we go back to the “Magna Carta”?

    Each document in human freedom is step.

    I do not see the Constitution as the ‘final step’. I believe it is bizarre to think that 200 years more of intellectual development needs to be constrained by a document written in the past.

    Consider – the comment ‘..promote the general welfare..’ – in the 18th Century Marxism and Socialism had not yet been articulated.

    The 21st Century has new concepts regarding “welfare” then understand by the pre-Marxist 18th Century. Their meaning and today’s socialist meaning are not nearly the same.

    The human values of importance have not changed for 20,000 years.
    Family-Children-Self Reliance-Freedom-Peace-Prosperity

    None of these values are of nor can be created or given by government.

    • v. Holland says:

      BF,

      You have stated many times that if we have to have a government -than a smaller government is best-so using that concept-do you have any idea’s that would help to make this government smaller?

      • Black Flag says:

        As long as government claims the right to attack non-violent people, it cannot be contained nor constrained by any means.

        It will grow until it consumes the society.

        • v. Holland says:

          So, and Please correct me if I am wrong-You are saying that unless the discussion is on getting rid of the government completely, you will not use your obvious intelligence to help make the situation better for your fellow citizens unless it is on your terms(or is it that you think waiting for the collapse of our government, which I assume you realize will come at a high price, is the best way to help?

          • Black Flag says:

            Not quite.

            First, we need to establish precisely a goal.

            For me, it is to be free of government.

            Once that has been hammered in, solid, unmoving, immutable – then all actions and plans are made to make the goal.

            It will be a very, very long walk – indeed – so there is a lot of work to do in the interim to get there.

            I have millions of ideas of what can be done – today – that will make steps (albeit small steps) toward the goal; and these steps will begin to improve our lives, slowly.

            Government will collapse – with or without any help. I have zero interest in speeding it up or slowing it down, or acting within its system.

            Its collapse will be catastrophic – but so what? I cannot help it. I cannot save anyone from it, except myself, family, friends and those that choose, on their own reasons, to listen to some of my advice.

            Any plan I have is outside the system – I will spend zero thinking to make any plan in the system.

  20. Consider – the comment ‘..promote the general welfare..’ – in the 18th Century Marxism and Socialism had not yet been articulated.

    BF, While it may not have been articulated, as far as being termed Marxism or socialism. I feel that the writers understood these forms of goverment and chose to use the language they adopted to curtail (limit) governemnt interference in our individual liberty. As I stated above, “promote” was not used in Article IV. The crafters used very specific language, for specific reasons. Taxes, for the general welfare could, by the language used, be legislated.

    Nothing else suggests , using the example of Healthcare, is within the powers of government to legislate, unless specifically written as such within the articles. Unless I missed something in my readings, promote and legislate are meant as they are written.

    G!

    • Black Flag says:

      I’m not sure Socialism existed in theory or action.

      Sure, there was plenty of examples of parasite people living off the earnings of others – but the concept and terminology was not articulated

  21. Ok for what it is worth…If we do away with government we will creat a vaccum that will be filled by force by another government we like even less than the one we have. That being said I believe that our constitution is the most advantage piece of power that the American people have to force our government to work as it should. I believe that by design the founding fathers made a growing changeable constitution that will work today and for centuries to come. The problem is the fed’s have usurged their power and the people have allowed it. Enforcing state rights and keeping the fed’s in check is the best way of assuring our country runs as it was designed to. Instead of Judges trying to see how the Fed’s can obtain more power via a Supreme court ruling they should be trying to avoid Federal intrustion. Same way with the legislative body, avoid not intrude. If it is not a specific power given to the Fed’s they should back out. The only way I can see this country going back to the designers ideals is to elect officals that have the same belief and will work to obtain that goal.

    • Black Flag says:

      …If we do away with government we will creat a vaccum that will be filled by force by another government we like even less than the one we have

      I do not agree.

      What does the collapse of government really mean?

      It means that the centralization of violence projected from a center of power will collapse

      A collapse of government will not, necessarily, cause a government.

      Yes, the power vacuum will happen – and it will be filled, not by government, but by decentralized forces of violence – probably gangs and Mafia-like organizations.

      These violent entities are far less powerful, and far less dangerous than government, because – unlike a government – they do not have legitimacy of action.

      The extent of the power will be very limited – and will allow a massive, greater expression of freedom for the citizens.

      Self-organized entities of cooperation could spring up to counter the criminals (<-defined: a man who attacks or destroys a persons rights).

      • So during a violent overthrow since the new government does not have legitimacy of action it will be less dangerous? It will be filled, not by government, but by decentralized forces of violence – probably gangs and Mafia-like organizations. Oh yea that is the way I want my lids to live in a country with decentralized violence…Mexico drug lords prehaps? BF you have to explain because this is scary. Why in the world would I want to live where gangs kill at their leisure? Why would I want to live under a Castro or Chaves? What we have may not be good but I can think of lots worse.
        When their is a power vaccum there is always some nut case willing to step in and place his form of violence onto the people. Even though under the BF world it has no legitiment power to do so….it will happen anyway.

  22. BF says: These violent entities are far less powerful, and far less dangerous than government, because – unlike a government – they do not have legitimacy of action.

    D13 counters: Not true….legitimacy of action is a cop out statement. To assume they would be far less powerful simply because it does not have state authority is folly at best… the right of way will go to the entity with the biggest weapons. Everyone assumes weapons means things that go bang….weapons could be merely words.

    BF says: Self-organized entities of cooperation could spring up to counter the criminals (<-defined: a man who attacks or destroys a persons rights).

    D13 counters: Key word is "could"…not would. And is not an entity of "cooperation" still a gang or mafia type? Even a peaceful non weapon bearing cooperative is just as dangerous…..and any cooperative will still have a leader and followers and enforcers….why not just be a third world country in that case. A cooperative will still use force. Force, like weapons, does not have to mean things that go bang…it could be economic…it could be simply to isolate and ignore…anything and any organized reaction is still force….whether violent or peaceful.

    • Perhaps the “code of the west” is the best option. Live your life and forsake all others. Do not bother anybody and if someone tramples what you consider to be your right….pull you six shooter and end the problem. No government, no army, no sheriff. Just YOUR right to protect what YOU feel is a “right”.

      Remember the old west saying that all men are created equal….that is until Sam Colt came along.

      Of course, you could not have a world without guns. You could not have a world without words. You cannot have a world without violence in some form for the human does not exist that violence is not part of the solution. Even you, Black Flag, will resort to violence but, according to you, you would limit it to protecting your family and your own self perceived “rights”. For to acknowledge that there is a list of rights, acknowledges that a “congress” of people got together and contrived those rights.

      • Black Flag says:

        D13

        Perhaps the “code of the west” is the best option. Live your life and forsake all others. Do not bother anybody and if someone tramples what you consider to be your right….pull you six shooter and end the problem. No government, no army, no sheriff. Just YOUR right to protect what YOU feel is a “right”.

        It is worth investigating the truth of the Wild West – not the ‘movie’ history.

        It is enlightening.

        Remember the old west saying that all men are created equal….that is until Sam Colt came along.

        No, that’s not the saying at all.

        It was “God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal

        Of course, you could not have a world without guns. You could not have a world without words. You cannot have a world without violence in some form for the human does not exist that violence is not part of the solution. Even you, Black Flag, will resort to violence but, according to you, you would limit it to protecting your family and your own self perceived “rights”.

        Self-perceived???

        Yes, I would use violence to protect against criminals – who wish to destroy my rights.

        For to acknowledge that there is a list of rights, acknowledges that a “congress” of people got together and contrived those rights.

        So you are of the mind that a committee gives me my rights??

  23. Black Flag says:

    D13

    BF says: These violent entities are far less powerful, and far less dangerous than government, because – unlike a government – they do not have legitimacy of action. D13 counters: Not true….legitimacy of action is a cop out statement.

    I have, many times, pointed out to the consistent theories of governance – where, without exception all require legitimacy.

    It a required part of governance

    To assume they would be far less powerful simply because it does not have state authority is folly at best… the right of way will go to the entity with the biggest weapons.

    Power and violence tends follow “bigger” – but size does not determine legitimacy

    The right to act establishes legitimacy. Holding a gun to your head, I do not have legitimacy – but I do have power.

    Everyone assumes weapons means things that go bang….weapons could be merely words. BF says: Self-organized entities of cooperation could spring up to counter the criminals (<-defined: a man who attacks or destroys a persons rights). D13 counters: Key word is "could"…not would.

    Well spied.

    “Could”….the free action of men may also act to not act.

    But the same with ‘government’ – they chose whether or not to act or not too.

    And is not an entity of "cooperation" still a gang or mafia type?

    Depends on your root definition – do you call “Citizens on Patrol” around their neighborhood a “gang”?

    Even a peaceful non weapon bearing cooperative is just as dangerous…..and any cooperative will still have a leader and followers and enforcers….why not just be a third world country in that case.

    It is the extent of danger. A modern government is capable of destroying hundreds of millions of people.

    Even on the worse day, the mafia are seriously constrained by orders of magnitude less threat (Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre is the name given to the murder of seven people on Valentine’s day in 1929).

    A cooperative will still use force. Force, like weapons, does not have to mean things that go bang…it could be economic…it could be simply to isolate and ignore…anything and any organized reaction is still force….whether violent or peaceful.

    My complaint to you (as with others): If you pervert the definitions of words (such as force) in a way to meet any of your points, you end up with a word with no meaning.

    Force is well defined – I would advise not to waste our time by providing arguments that require a infinitely broad expectation on that definition.

    • BF….so….without government we would spend our time protecting what is ours. We have no time to work in a garden or tend the fields….we are on watching waiting for some sniper to shoot us out of our tree? We can not leave what is our because the gangs will take it if we turn our backs? Living in a society where we believe that our neighbor will help protect us, help grow food and cooperate within a given structure. I have got to be missing your point here BF because I really do not understand.

  24. Black Flag says:

    amazed1

    So during a violent overthrow since the new government does not have legitimacy of action it will be less dangerous?

    Yes.

    It is constrained by the eyes of the people.

    Think about this, Amazed.

    You see a man beaten by another. What do you feel?

    What if the man beating the other has a uniform. What do you feel?

    First case, you may intervene on the side of the innocent.

    Second case, if you intervene, it would be on the side of the uniform.

    Legitimacy lowers the risk of violence – because if you are legitimate, very few will act against you

    BF you have to explain because this is scary. Why in the world would I want to live where gangs kill at their leisure? Why would I want to live under a Castro or Chaves? What we have may not be good but I can think of lots worse. When their is a power vaccum there is always some nut case willing to step in and place his form of violence onto the people. Even though under the BF world it has no legitiment power to do so….it will happen anyway.

    So where is your great threat?

    A gang who can merely controls a square block or an entity that can nuke an entire country???

    Castro is a government – you know that, right?

    Freedom does not end violence. But neither does government.

    The question is: where is your greatest threat

    • BF….gangs in the 20’s traveled all over the coutry…they were not just within a block or a mile. The mafia is large and dangerous….don’t mess with them. The greatest threat is from the power vaccum that will be filled with something I do not believe I want to live under. No I did not say Castro or Chaves was a government…they are dictaters who squash the rights of their people….I don’t like living under the government I have now why would I think about living under worse.
      “you may intervene” I don’t know if I would or not…I can call 911 and report what I see either way. But you are right about a uniform giving a sense of “Legitimacy”. But in the same token so does a gun…if I saw someone shooting someone I would not jump in to help unless I had my own gun.
      Some how I sense that a power vaccum under your ideas will be filled with bullies, Thugs, thieves, and only the strong will survive. I realize that there is a strong possibility that it may come to that, and I prepare for just that. But that is not the kind of world I want my kids to have to grow up in. I do not believe that it has to be that way…leaving that kind of mess for my kids would mean I have failed even more than I am failing now. Call me a dreamer…but I think under the right people and the right partcipation by the people our form of goverment can work.

  25. I find it quite amusing at some of the statements made today. Let’s see if I can ask a few questions of the commenters.

    1. As long as government claims the right to attack non-violent people.

    Who decided the we are non-violent? And what claim has the government made that gives them the “right” to attack it’s own citizens?

    2. These violent entities are far less powerful, and far less dangerous than government, because – unlike a government – they do not have legitimacy of action.

    These entities do not rely on legitimacy, just force. Far more Americans have been killed within our borders by those without legitimacy, than by our government. Some facts would be interesting here.

    3. Power and violence tends follow “bigger” – but size does not determine legitimacy

    Evil deeds do not require legitimacy, it’s not the size of the person in the fight, but the size of the fight in the person.

    4. Even on the worse day, the mafia are seriously constrained by orders of magnitude less threat (Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre is the name given to the murder of seven people on Valentine’s day in 1929).

    Might that be because we have government and laws. Without the threat of retribution or retaliation of government, 7 could have been 7000, it would have simply taken longer.

    Just tossin out some thoughts and get input, although I have yet to get any answers from my earlier questions, and would rather stay on subject more closely, Here we go!

    G!

  26. Black Flag says:

    amazed1

    BF….so….without government we would spend our time protecting what is ours. We have no time to work in a garden or tend the fields….

    So you infer a belief that government is protecting you now???

    But think about this, are you spending all your time gathering food for your supper?

    Are you spending all your time making gas for your car?

    Why wouldn’t you hire professional security?

    Living in a society where we believe that our neighbor will help protect us, help grow food and cooperate within a given structure. I have got to be missing your point here BF because I really do not understand.

    You hold the same understanding as the Russians after the fall of the Soviets.

    They asked “Where will the milk and bread come from if it isn’t provided by the government?”

  27. Black Flag says:

    G-Man

    I find it quite amusing at some of the statements made today. Let’s see if I can ask a few questions of the commenters.

    1. As long as government claims the right to attack non-violent people.

    Who decided the we are non-violent? And what claim has the government made that gives them the “right” to attack it’s own citizens?

    Who decided you were human?

    It is by your action that makes you non-violent or not.

    Violence is an action.

    2. These violent entities are far less powerful, and far less dangerous than government, because – unlike a government – they do not have legitimacy of action.

    These entities do not rely on legitimacy, just force. Far more Americans have been killed within our borders by those without legitimacy, than by our government. Some facts would be interesting here.

    Since we are talking about purposeful action and not accident, your statement is Absolutely false

    3. Power and violence tends follow “bigger” – but size does not determine legitimacy

    Evil deeds do not require legitimacy, it’s not the size of the person in the fight, but the size of the fight in the person.

    Legitimacy of action changes the entire formula.

    If a cop attacks a civilian – it is viewed by almost all people as “right”. The civilian is demanded to take his grievance to court – where he may spend decades ‘proving’ his innocence. The cop, meanwhile, suffers no consequences.

    4. Even on the worse day, the mafia are seriously constrained by orders of magnitude less threat (Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre is the name given to the murder of seven people on Valentine’s day in 1929).

    Might that be because we have government and laws. Without the threat of retribution or retaliation of government, 7 could have been 7000, it would have simply taken longer.

    You can not offer any such case.

    There is no example where a gang has succeeded in killing 50 million people – but ample examples of government.

    • There is no example where a gang has succeeded in killing 50 million people – but ample examples of government.

      Might that be besause of their fear of government reprisal?

      Who decided you were human?

      Science I believe, even though science is not perfect. Maybe I’m not human, maybe you aren’t either, does that matter?

      It is by your action that makes you non-violent or not.

      Violence is an action.

      Correct, and based on every news report in this country, and our own claims to defend one’s self, we are inherantly violent.

      Since we are talking about purposeful action and not accident, your statement is Absolutely false

      Well, you totally lost me here, as I was discussing the non-need for legitimacy of evil doers. I must be getting tired! LOL

      Legitimacy of action changes the entire formula.

      The entire formula? Are we sharing the best rum and coke recipes here? Yes, at this point I am further lost, try to hold back your frustration.

      G!

  28. BF;

    Since you advocate the use of violence to protect what ever you perceive to be your rights – and those are YOUR perceptions alone, NOT the perceptions of someone else – then the violent overthrow of any governing body is to YOUR liking? I just don’t get it. You constantly say that you are against the use of violence against a non violent people, but you just now stated that YOU would use violence against ANYONE who violated YOUR self-perceived rights (whatever they may be) in the guise of defending those so-called rights. That is at the very least a conflict of interest, and at best absolute criminal.

    You are contradicting yourself.

    By denying anyone else what they perceive to be their rights to enforce what you perceive to be your rights is utterly ridiculous.

    THAT is exactly why we have government of the people that is by the people and dedicated for the people.

    If you don’t like it, then you do not have to live under the laws of that government as our laws do not restrict you from leaving.

    • Hell G.A., I’m still waiting on some kind of comment on post 15, that would help me understand if my grievences can hold merit.

      • Gman, If we can stop the dependence part, do you think the cycle can be broken? Yes I think so. When people come to the realization that government is not tool to be used for their own agenda.

  29. BF
    So you infer a belief that government is protecting you now???
    Well yes and NO…there are no armed gangs in our town.

    But think about this, are you spending all your time gathering food for your supper?
    Yes in a way I am…I work 10 hours a day to put food on the table…only thing is someone else grows and transports it. Under a fallen society I will have to do it myself.

    Are you spending all your time making gas for your car? No I work to provide it…under a fallen society I would probably do without unless I could find someone who had access to such…In my area it would be doubtful..probably have to use methane.

    Why wouldn’t you hire professional security? Isn’t hiring a professional giving him (the hired gun) legitimacy?

    You hold the same understanding as the Russians after the fall of the Soviets. They asked “Where will the milk and bread come from if it isn’t provided by the government?” Not really, I ask only that the government do what it was designed to do…no more, no less. I think the Constitution spells out the power very clearly….to bad we allowed them to overstep their power.

  30. v. Holland says:

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    This line in the Constitution bothers me, is this what they use to tax us out of exsistance, does this line give them the right to have cap & trade laws and heath insurance-general welfare of the United States seems mighty broad-although the list following this statement doesn’t seem to include the right to pass these types of social programs, this statement by it self does.

    • No sir, I do not believe they do (see post 15). I’m still trying to get some comment on that post considering this subject. Besides, Flag has me flappin my lips with my index finger at the moment LOL, and would rather talk about this.

      G!

      • v. Holland says:

        If this one statement does give them that right-seems like all it would take is an Amendment to take those words out, although I know nothing is ever simple.

        • Reading the Article, it is to “provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States”. Taxing it’s citizens out of existense would be conratictory to the language and intent of the article. The part” shall be uniform throughout the United States” has been gang raped.

          G!

          • v. Holland says:

            I asked the question about the 11th amendment and it said a citizen of one state couldn’t sue another state but that it was construed to mean a citizen couldn’t sue the state they lived in-so I reckon it’s the construing that we need to worry about 🙂

      • sorry, meant post 17.

    • V.Holland…I think that it means they have the right to tax to pay for those things…debts, defence and common welfare. I think general welfare are items like roads that benefit all people. Healthcare reform would only fall in that catagory if it promotes the general publics welfare. Cap and trade the same way. The only thing is our congress uses taxes not better the people but to pay for stupid programs….there is a difference, congress just doesn’t seem to understand it.
      Our forefathers never intend that line to be used the way it had been. A tax was inacted after the civil war to pay for the war and as soon as the debt was paid the tax was retracted. It wasn’t until the early 1900’s (I think 1911) that a permenate income tax was created and wages for congress sky rocketed. Go figure.

      • v. Holland says:

        People on this site make a big deal out of the meaning of words and we all know that Congress uses loop holes to do what they want so maybe we need to concentrate on word uses in order to tighten up the constitution so it’s words can’t be twisted. Case in point promote-provide, too very different words.

  31. On a lighter note tonight. I have tried hard to stay on topic and really think about the subject matter. I also enjoy EVERYONE’s input and kindness. As I sometimes stray off track in debating things that I didn’t intend on debating, as is the case tonight. I search for enlightenment, to maybe help my dim lightbulb in the old noggin get brighter!

    And then there are times when I feel like the resident window licker on the short bus! (meant as humor)

    There, I vented and laughed at the same time!

    G!

  32. v. Holland says:

    Where is Judy???? I am missing her peace keeping abilities and her funnies that her son sends her and she is gracious enough to share with us.

    • Hey V. I’m right here, just been reading comments, and staying out of the line of fire.

      • Missed you as well Judy. I’ve held off on the phone call, as I thought you may be busy.

        G!

        • Hey, G, sent you an e-mail earlier. I was busy for most of the day, but I need some me time now.

      • v. Holland says:

        Glad to see you are here-you must be tired from the 150 things you had to do today because you normally wade right into that line of fire.

        • I took my time today, and yes I am tired. My son came over this morning around 5:45 this morning to drop off his truck keys for his dad. He’s in Arkansas for 2 weeks for a telecommunications readiness training. I thought it was for Hazmat training, but that’s next month.

          When he gets back on the 15th, he’ll be home for a few days, then he as to go to Utah for more training for 2 weeks, but I can’t remember what for. He’s on the list of getting his SGT stripes and is doing all kinds of other things on top of it. So, we won’t be getting all those jokes and stories he send to me for a while anyway. We won’t be seeing much of him for the next 2 months because of all this extra training he’s going to be doing.

          • v. Holland says:

            I’ve got a friend who’s son left for Baghdad yesterday and her daughter (19) got married friday and joined the marines, will be going to boot camp at the end of this month-she is a basket case right now.

            • I wasn’t a basket case when my youngest joined the Marines. I t was when he went to Iraq that made me a basket case.

              Then my oldest went in the Army 2 months after his brother went in the Marines, I went through empty nest syndrome. Both my boys were gone, and I felt really lonely, even though I had my husband here. Just wasn’t the same when both boys were gone.

              I had a bad case of the watering eyes for a while, until I got I used to it. But there now they are round a lot more, and it’s never ending yapping.

      • Hey Judy…in this society everyone gets shot at. I think one of us could use your protection…want to chose one?

        • Okay, now I’m confused. Want to clue me in here.

          • I was talking about you staying out of the line of fire. The chosing sides was a throw back to the arguement that neighbors would step in to help you. Sorry for the confusion.

            • I’m sorry I was confused, I don’t like to choose sides, then I would be accused of playing favorites.

              • LOL..I understand about the favorites.Ya’ll good folks have a good evening and a wonderful tomorrow. I think I’ll go to bed and see if work looks better with a good nights sleep.

              • Good night AMAZED1.

                Talk with you tomorrow.

                Judy

  33. Black Flag says:

    G. A. Rowe

    BF; Since you advocate the use of violence to protect what ever you perceive to be your rights – and those are YOUR perceptions alone, NOT the perceptions of someone else – then the violent overthrow of any governing body is to YOUR liking?

    I know, sir, that in the months on this blog and the tens of thousands of words I’ve written….

    …I have never made such a statement.

    I urge caution, sir, in creating strawman’s against me.

    You constantly say that you are against the use of violence against a non violent people, but you just now stated that YOU would use violence against ANYONE who violated YOUR self-perceived rights (whatever they may be) in the guise of defending those so-called rights.

    You make baseless statements because you confuse your undefined understanding of what a right is with my defined and articulated understanding of what a right is

    You substitute an understanding based on a definition that you have repeatedly refused to write out to replace my definition which I have upon demand, offered for review.

    I cannot control your confusion. But, remember, it is you not me that is confused.

    By denying anyone else what they perceive to be their rights to enforce what you perceive to be your rights is utterly ridiculous.

    To explain, again, to you:

    – I do not have within me the ability to judge you

    – Therefore, the only thing I can do is judge you based on your consistency to your own principles

    If you claim ‘human rights’ but consistently refuse to define what you mean (as you have), you have (1) no basis on which to judge yourself (2) no bases on which to offer a point of view.

    • v. Holland says:

      Wow BF, No basis to offer a point of view-them are fighting words where I come from-perhaps you should tone it down a bit-although I admit to sometimes being a violent person. 🙂 😉

  34. Black Flag says:

    G-Man

    Might that be besause of their fear of government reprisal?

    Government reprisal, as it is right now, it as extreme as it can get on them – it tends to kill them or imprison them.

    I doubt you can ‘up the ante’ much more than that – and yet, gangs still exist within government control.

    In an arena of 100% government control – a jail – gangs still exist. So it cannot be the lack of or existence of government that creates or prevents gangs.

    Who decided you were human? Science I believe, even though science is not perfect. Maybe I’m not human, maybe you aren’t either, does that matter?

    Exactly! It does not matter.

    All that matters is that one remains consistent. Those that cannot remain consistent in their beliefs hold no validity.

    It is by your action that makes you non-violent or not. Violence is an action. Correct, and based on every news report in this country, and our own claims to defend one’s self, we are inherantly violent.

    I don’t see it that way at all.

    We all have the tool of violence. Whether we use or not is the question.

    The Universe is violent – but we, as intelligent beings, get to chose – 99.9999999% of the Universe is not as lucky.

    Legitimacy of action changes the entire formula. The entire formula? Are we sharing the best rum and coke recipes here? Yes, at this point I am further lost, try to hold back your frustration.

    Yes, the entire formula.

    If you attack a man, without legitimacy – the citizens call you a criminal and will act upon you as such.

    If you attack a man and it is legitimate – the citizens will stay their hand and may even assist you.

    Legitimacy changes everything about the use of violence.

    • Well, at least I can stop flappin my lips with my index finger for the moment. I can at least understand your position now. Just one more question before I hit the sack.

      All that matters is that one remains consistent. Those that cannot remain consistent in their beliefs hold no validity.

      I believe my core beliefs remain, but as I gain more knowledge, I have changed my position on some minor issues. I try to be open minded, and listen to others. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not. Sometimes I don’t even know why, guess I just fall back on those core beliefs. You are certainly consistant, almost to an unnatural extreme (not being nasty here). But having read many, if not all of your posts the last several months, you are who you are, and that’s not changing. I reckon that could be said of everyone that posts here.

      Peace to you and your Family!

      G!

      • Black Flag says:

        I learn just like you. It’s a big universe and I hardly have all the answers.

        However, I am immutable on principle. If I cannot be, then it cannot be my real core principle – something else takes precedence. I’ve reached my core through brutal hard work and dialogue such as this.

        When I was not consistent – it meant something was wrong. I worked to fix it.

        As one adversary once piped up:

        “You always think you’re ‘going to win’ because all you do is defend freedom, peace and life”.

        Yea, he’s right!

  35. Black Flag says:

    amazed1

    BF So you infer a belief that government is protecting you now???Well yes and NO…there are no armed gangs in our town.

    The trade off will always be:

    (1) Centralized violence, eliminating decentralized violence, thus making the violence more predictable however capable of destroying cities and countries on a whim, but

    or

    (2) Decentralized violence, capable of destroying individuals on a whim Ie: very unpredictable – but incapable of wrecking systemic societal destruction.

    So the choice is unpredictable, but limited violence or predictable but unlimited violence.

    It is Dante’s Hell, isn’t it?

    Under a fallen society I will have to do it myself.

    YES! So let’s not let society fall just because government fails.

    Isn’t hiring a professional giving him (the hired gun) legitimacy?

    I can only give him the grant and right that I hold myself. He cannot act in a way, legitimately, then I could.

    Not really, I ask only that the government do what it was designed to do…no more, no less. I think the Constitution spells out the power very clearly….to bad we allowed them to overstep their power.

    Does your definition of government match reality?

    • Probably not BF…but can I not dream? Can I not hope and pray for a better government? You sure do spoil all of my fun.

  36. Black Flag says:

    amazed1

    BF….gangs in the 20’s traveled all over the coutry…they were not just within a block or a mile.

    They held no territory, nor were ‘in control’ of any citizens.

    They were always on the run – no refuge – until they were killed.

    The mafia is large and dangerous….don’t mess with them.

    They aren’t that large – and they are dangerous – but they are very, very limited.

    They very rarely act against the citizens – their battles tend to be between themselves. They know if they moved their action too much into the citizens, they would be wiped out.

    The greatest threat is from the power vaccum that will be filled with something I do not believe I want to live under. No I did not say Castro or Chaves was a government…they are dictaters who squash the rights of their people

    I believe, again, you are changing the definition of government to what ever suits you at the time.

    They are a government – all other governments see that way too.

    Some how I sense that a power vaccum under your ideas will be filled with bullies, Thugs, thieves, and only the strong will survive.

    Yes, there will be an exchange between predictable, unlimited violence with unpredictable, limited violence.

    And no, the ones who act with legitimacy will survive – the ones that do not, no matter how strong, cannot prevail.

    • Black Flag says:

      hey know if they moved their action too much into the citizens, they (the mafia) would be wiped out.

    • BF…They are a government – all other governments see that way too.
      Conceed….

  37. Black Flag says:

    No basis to offer a point of view-them are fighting words where I come from-perhaps you should tone it down a bit-although I admit to sometimes being a violent person.

    Correct.

    If a POV is inconsistent, it cannot be valid – and therefore has no basis worth considering.

    • v. Holland says:

      But what you consider an Inconsistency-I consider a difference of opinion, or just facing a hard reality from a different perspective, or sometimes it’s a moral dilemma, which I know you don’t believe in -but just because you don’t believe it exist doesn’t necessarily make you right and other peoples opinions worthless

      • Black Flag says:

        It is not a matter of a difference of opinion – it is whether you hold to your argument with reason.

        Irrational discussion is pointless.

        It is not a right vs wrong – it is whether the position is consistent or not.

        If it is not, it is worthless.

  38. I would like to say my good nights to all of you, and I’m sorry I wasn’t on more today, just didn’t have a lot to say,that’s all. Besides, didn’t want to get into trouble for not staying on topic, and didn’t want to get yelled at. LOL

    You all have a great night.

    Judy

    • v. Holland says:

      Goodnight Judy, I am on my way to bed too-Monday morning comes early and I don’t think anyone would have the nerve to yell at someone as nice as you.

  39. Yep… I was right….. Strap on the six gun and mind my own business. Do my own barter and make my own rules and live by them. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. When I get ready to take someone else’s property, I will just do it….wipe that person and family out so there is no retribution because no one else will care as it would not affect them. Don’t have to worry about government, there won’t be any. Don’t have to worry about an army..there is no need. Do not have to worry about society because everyone will be a pacifist…to band together for armed intervention would be against the principle and would be violence. Would not have to worry about gangs and such because I would not intervene on their territory and as long as I do not bother them,,,who would care. SIGH!!!!

    I can start with BF’s neighbors because, by his admission, he would not care…he would be too busy trying to figure out who was right…and to interfere could take him away from his family and endanger them if that happened. I could take their (neighbors) plunder and barter that as well for as long as I approach that barter in a peaceful manner, where I got it would make no difference.It appears there would be no law except the law of the land and the law of survival. ( I am referring to no government providing for the common defense because that would be using a government entity to provide violence to prevent violence. )

    No, on second thought, I think I will just take this broken system we have and repair it the best that I can. I still believe in our system. It will take some change and hard work…but I still believe that it is the best approach…so to follow GA’s line of thinking…..I will think of how to define 21st Century values and apply them to the framers of our Constitution from our beginning. That is the best approach.

    • Black Flag says:

      D13

      Yep… I was right….. Strap on the six gun and mind my own business. Do my own barter and make my own rules and live by them. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. When I get ready to take someone else’s property, I will just do it….wipe that person and family out so there is no retribution because no one else will care as it would not affect them.

      As usual, you delve into the perverse because you do not understand.

      You have no legitimacy to act, if such action is criminal.

      But since you cannot define your principle of rights, it is no wonder you confuse your attacks upon innocent people to be justified.

      Don’t have to worry about government, there won’t be any.

      But, yet, as you speak – government acts in this exact way – attacking non-violent people

      So, why do you not worry about government?

      I still believe that it is the best approach…so to follow GA’s line of thinking…..I will think of how to define 21st Century values and apply them to the framers of our Constitution from our beginning. That is the best approach.

      Then you are cursed to repeat history.

      • BF says: As usual, you delve into the perverse because you do not understand.

        D13 Responds: Shame on you, BF. I thought you of all people would recognize a facetious statement.

        BF says: You have no legitimacy to act, if such action is criminal.

        D13 responds: Bf, I have taken the time to reread many of your posts and all your posts are very consistent in your statements of legitimacy… and unless I agree with your definition, then I am not legitimate according to your standards. (My definition is in accordance with established rules, principles, or standards.)

        BF says: Then you are cursed to repeat history.

        D13 says: I am not a secessionist, anarchist, nor will I be guilty of treason. I will do my best to change history not ignore it. I prefer to do something about it and not give up. You seem to have given up.

        • OOPs…forgot to address the criminal part. All I was doing was eluding to the fact that with no government and no rules, then there are none to break. This is not the world that I want.

    • Black Flag says:

      And as so often people do, you confuse the right to act voluntarily (which means they may chose not to act) as a guarantee that they would never act – therefore, you need to put a gun to their back to get their ‘cooperation’.

      • No sir…under your idea, there would be no need to even try to get your cooperation. I will not get it. I prefer a non violent world but I am prepared to be so if necessary.

        • Black Flag says:

          If you can not obtain cooperation in support of your action, you must take serious contemplation about your action – it is probably immoral.

  40. v. Holland says:

    Decided to say goodnight with a funny. Hope everyone thinks it’s funny. I didn’t write this but there wasn’t an author listed so I can’t identify the author-

    A little boy wanted $100 very badly and his mother told him to pray to God for it. He prayed and prayed for two weeks, but nothing turned up. Then he decided perhaps he should write God a letter requesting the $100.

    When the sorting office received the letter addressed to God, they opened it up and decided to send it to the President.

    The President was so impressed, touched and amused that he instructed his secretary to send the little boy a check for $5. He thought that this would appear to be a lot of money to a little boy.

    The little boy was delighted with the $5 and sat down to write a thank-you letter to God:

    Dear God, Thank you very much for the money. I noticed that you had to send it through Washington.

    As usual, they deducted $95 for themselves.

  41. Okay folks, this is it for me until I get back from vacation.

    I want to thank you all for responding so well to my guest post, and especially to BF – although I just don’t debate philosophically or philosophical subjects – for his very intelligent input.

    Note to Judy – I do not yell at nice young ladies for any reason, and you are a nice young lady. If I did, my wife would beat me severely about the head and shoulders 😉

    I got some good information from all of you and I did learn a lot. I was told a long time ago that if you have nato learned at least one thing new during a day, then that day is wasted – These last two days were not wasted at all!

    Thank you all again, and see you all in a few weeks!

  42. BF….They were always on the run – no refuge – until they were killed.

    They had Hot Springs AR….and yes per our history it could be dangerous….that is why they made “deals” with the mob.

  43. V. Holland

    Since you put one up, here is one, one of my son’s sent to me a while back. Enjoy.

    Judy

    Makes sense to me!!

    I was talking to the 8-year-old daughter of a friend of mine, and she said she wanted to be President some day. Both of her parents, Democrats, were standing there, so I asked her, “If you were President, what’s the first thing you would do?”

    She replied, “I’d give food and houses to all the homeless people.” “Wow – what a worthy goal,” I told her. “But you don’t have to wait until you’re President to do that. You can come over to my house and mow the grass, pull weeds, and rake my yard, and I’ll pay you $50. Then I’ll take you over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward food or a new house.”

    She thought that over for a few seconds, ’cause after all she’s only 8. And while her Mom glared at me, she looked me straight in the eye and asked, “Why doesn’t the homeless guy come over and do the work himself, and you can just pay him the $50?”

    And I said, “Welcome to the Republican Party!”

  44. v. Holland says:

    What is every ones opinion on reinstating a poll tax-Seems like a small one time fee to register to vote would help get rid of duplicate registrations, and I think it would make it possible to get though a law that you have to show identification to vote, which would help to stop illegal voting.

  45. v. Holland says:

    Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

    Note:excluding Indians not taxed-what effect would construing this to mean anyone who doesn’t pay taxes?

  46. Black Flag says:

    Patients forced to live in agony after NHS refuses to pay for painkilling injections

    The Government’s drug rationing watchdog says “therapeutic” injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5955840/Patients-forced-to-live-in-agony-after-NHS-refuses-to-pay-for-painkilling-injections.html

    • I figured that if you like to post one-sided news that paint a subject in the worst light, you can handle it if the tables are turned. So if I base my opinions on all members serving in the US armed forces… just like you base your opinion on universal health care, be angry at me, but also understand I’m only doing exactly what you are.

      Shooting death of Hashim Ibrahim Awad

      It is alleged that the Marines abducted the Iraqi civilian, Hashim Ibrahim Awad, killed him a half hour later, placed an AK-47 and a shovel next to his body along the road, then falsified the formal report of the incident, asserting he was shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb. In an interview on ABC television, Congressman John P. Murtha explained “some Marines pulled somebody out of a house, put them next to an IED, fired some AK-47s so they’d have cartridges there. And then tried to cover that up.”

      According to allegations by supposed neighbors and family members, around 2:00 AM on the morning of April 26th the Marines pounded on the door of one of the village houses demanding a search. They supposedly asked the occupant, a cousin of the victim, if he had any weapons. He had an AK-47 (each family in Iraq is allowed one rifle). They allegedly (although the account is not specific and corroborated) took the rifle and also a shovel resting in front of the house. They then allegedly went to two other homes, asking at one if there were any men in the house. At the fourth house, when Hashim Ibrahim Awad answered the door, the Marines allegedly grabbed his hands and pulled him out of the house, not searching his house afterward. Accounts differ on this and no witnesses are available to corroborate any of the story. Thirty minutes later gunshots were allegedly heard.

      Wow, sick, morally bankrupt murderers. Are all US soldiers like that, or are they like universal health care?

      • Davey,

        My question is the report accurate? Any view from the other side of the isle? A hit and run attack on US Marines, against Flag, who is outspoken about US waging constant war against other countries?

        Did you take a left turn somewhere before writing that?

        • Who cares about the authenticity of the “news” (BTW, it did come from Reuters).
          But then again, just look at the source of the disinformation on health care, from the Telegraph. That’s just a yellow rag.
          My point is, if someone wishes to post obviously one-sided horror stories about health care, I’ll do the very same. It won’t be about health care, but instead about the fine young men and women serving your nation. If BF wishes to post one-sided horror stories, I’ll just reciprocate.
          I’m sure you guys can handle it. I mean, obviously you can dish it out, I expect you to be able to take it on the chin.

          • Davi,

            “Who cares about the authenticity”

            “I’m sure you guys can handle it. I mean, obviously you can dish it out, I expect you to be able to take it on the chin.”

            The question is if you wish to be taken seriously?
            I noticed Flag did not bother to respond. Think about it, or not. Hope you can overlook my sense of humor, let me know if anything come off wrong and I will try to improve. (the left turn was kinda funny though)

            A good day and better tomorrow to you.

      • Just came across this, seems to fit somehow.

        Rep. Van Hollen (D-MD) declared, with much indignation and more than a twinge of bitterness, that they would not let the health care reform debate be “swiftboated.”

        That makes for a nice sound bite that appeals to the party’s left wing but irritates most of America. And therein lies the Democrats’ problem with getting more people to back their health care effort. When questioned on the merits of their proposal, they fall back on what makes them most comfortable– appealing to the far left of their party. But this comes at the expense of everyone else — they have consistently ignored the legitimate questions of the vast majority of the population, preferring to duck the tough questions and instead to make others the bad guy.

        “When questioned on the merits”
        “preferring to duck the tough questions and instead to make others the bad guy.”

        Which this is from FOX, so can be ignored as biased.

        http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/08/03/dana-perino-health-care-democrats/

    • Good one Flag,

      Wonder where Bob the socialist is today?

      Under Labour’s moves, the subsistence allowance paid to single asylum-seekers aged 25 and over will be slashed from £42.16 to £35.13 a week in October.

      Asylum seekers are desperate people, fleeing wars, coups and crazed regimes, situations often stoked up by the foreign policies of our own government. They already receive 30% less than the jobseekers allowance, and are trapped in destitution because the rules say that they cannot work until their claims for asylum have been assessed.

      http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2009/07/labours-public-spending-cuts-strategy.html

      What a great country, come here for asylum, but we will not allow you to work until the paperwork is done. But we will provide 42 pounds, er, make that 35 pounds a week for you to live on, not to worry, fish & chips are cheap here,
      pip, pip, chin up, that’s a good lad.

      Yes, soon to be available in America.

      • I will reply to you Life Of Illusion the right wing extremist (see how silly it is trying to call people names when you know nothing about them).

        The NHS is not perfect I never claimed it was, but it provides care for every citizen, we have a longer lifespan, lower infant mortality and recently we had a report on the increase in cancer survivability. All for half the money per person that the US spends on health care. If you want me to drudge up some stories of American health care I would be happy to do so.

        Wait are you complaining we are not socialist enough? Do you even know what socialism means? Please look it up.

        Err go eat a burger, yeehaw?!!

        • Bob,

          A kind good day to you sir. Yes, sadly, I know what socialism means, and I do not think its a good thing. Do you? I know very little about NHS, but despite all the glowing stories of how great it is, there are also a few no so glowing. Shall we be fair about this?

          How much do you know about the US system?

          Politicians saying its failing, must be fixed, etc??
          MSM touting the same for hours on end? That does not make it so. US LAW REQUIRES any person seeking medical attention at an emergency room, to be treated. Very few people are dying on our streets because they cannot receive medical attention. This does create a problem, that many abuse this law, going to an ER for minor illness, because its free to them, but damn expensive to me and the other insured. Hospitals here also charge a lower rate to non-insured who are willing to pay.

          Myself, and most here would welcome health care reform. But that is not what our politicians are trying to do.
          30% of our cost go to legal expenses. My understanding of you legal system is that if a frivolous lawsuit is brought, the looser pays the legal fees of the winner, which discourages predatory lawsuits. We do not have that, and if they were really trying to reform healthcare, that would be the first thing addressed. A genuine answer here would be much appreciated.

          Next there is the question of our 47 million uninsured. Those and most government supplied numbers are bogus. One question comes down to illegal immigrants. They have either come here or stayed deliberately breaking the law. Are they then due free health care? Instead of answering this question, our politicians are trying to side-step the issue, and at the same time consider, they are attempting to lay a path for 11 million illegal immigrants to become citizens, which would cement their majority in all our elections.

          Considering they cannot run our postal system without a loss, why should we believe they can run our health care?

          Another point, medicare & medicaid are government run health programs that, along with SS, are projected to require some 70% of our GDP by 2052. Should health care reform not start with those health programs already under the governments control?

          And in closing, I made that remark as a jest, but was hoping a Brit would respond to what Flag or I found. I have never been across the pond, Flag seems to have been damn near everywhere(might be wanted in your country).

          When I’m watchin’ my TV
          and a man comes on to tell me
          how white my shirts can be.
          Well he can’t be a man ’cause he doesn’t smoke
          the same cigarrettes as me.
          I can’t get no, oh no no no.
          Hey hey hey, that’s what I say.

          I can’t get no satisfaction,
          And add to the Stones, you drink your beer warm!

          Yours cordially,
          Redneck, (yes, I know the historic reference)white wing extremist, gun nut, Illusion. ( I stopped or I’d be writing all night just on what a whack job I am)

          • Damn typo, right wing extremist. Wasn’t going to be a racist until tomorrow.

          • Pure socialism does not work and pure capitalism does not work.

            The NHS is not perfect and there are the odd horror stories that come out. This one is not too bad though I have read better stories then this. People who have no medically found back pain for under a year are going to be offered alternative medicine instead such as accupuncture. NICE always comes out with crap like this and they almost always get smacked down again anyway.
            Unfortunately you will rarely see “The NHS is doing great” headlines in newspapers as that does not sell the newspapers, doom and gloom is what sells.

            If any politician suggested scrapping the NHS then they would kiss their political career goodbye. People in the UK grumble about it but then we grumble about everything, the NHS is still very popular.

            Currently the US system spends around 10% of the money on malpractice cases and you spend 30% on administrative costs, in UHC countries you have about 5% administrative costs. Tort reform is only going to help you slightly.

            Your point about ER care, the uninsured go to the ER because they cannot get insurance due to not being able to afford insurance or are not eligible to get it. ER care is the most expensive care, would it not be better to have a system that allows people to get checked out early so they do not need to visit the ER? 101,000 Americans die each year from preventable illnesses.

            You spend nearly double the amount of money per person than UHC countries and you still are not able to cover everyone.

            Although I have recieved pretty crappy care myself from American health care I know that for the majority it works fine but I know that you can twist the 47 million uninsured the fact that you have more than 1 who is not able to get medical care without a visit to the ER is not good.

            If you have money and have good insurance you can get some of the best medical care in the world in America, if you are poor and uninsured well good luck.

            • Bob,

              Good morning from flyover country.

              “would it not be better to have a system that allows people to get checked out early so they do not need to visit the ER?”

              Yes, but is that what our politicians are trying to push on us?

              I think you underestimate the impact tort reform would have. If every doctor in the US spends $100,000 a year on legal insurance, those cost are passed on to his paying customers.

              And are your Dr.’s not immune from lawsuits? Apples and oranges, until we have tort reform, lawyers and insurance companies will get richer, at the public’s expense.

              • Have not read through it all myself but you may find it interesting.

                http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oscj-8zwYkgC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

                Insurance companies have a death grip on American health care and you probably wont see any reform happening anyway due to the millions insurance companies spend lobbying both democrats and republicans. A single payer system is just not happening. People complain about the beurocracy of UHC countries but by definition an insurance company will spend as little money as possible to get you better and if you get seriously ill will try to cancel your coverage if its feasibly possible. A companies number one concern is the board and shareholders, thats great in other fields but when it comes to my health not so much.

              • Bob,

                Many thanks, I’m going to post this on live mic to let others share. Just skimmed, looks interesting.

                But I think it makes my point, what we are being offered by our politicians is not health reform.

                Think its time for a Newcastle, served at 36 degree F. Can’t get Old Peculiar here anymore. Damn that Obama, must be his fault somehow.

    • I have had no problem with the NHS so no one else has problems with it. From your complete disregard for people who have problems getting insurance with pre existing conditions due to your own experiences I am right in thinking this eh BF?

  47. I don’t like the idea of having to pay another tax on anything, and I don’t care if it is to vote. I don’t think we should be taxed on that.

    It’s enough I read in the paper this morning that our dear, wonderful, and loving president and congress want to raise taxes on the middle and lower class so it can tame the exploding deficit now, even though he said he wouldn’t. I wish he would make up his mind on what side of his face he’s going to talk on. What’s going to happen if the middle and lower class can’t possibly pay anymore taxes? Will they be thrown in jail, or billed monthly so then they can pay? What a lying hypocrite he is along with congress, not to mention a double talker, and two-faced. I want to bitch-slap all those who voted for him, and I can start with my brother in law.

    • I too would not support another tax on anything…especially something as basic as voting. Besides, there would be those who “could not pay” and thus be exempt from the tax creating the same debacle all over again. If the current government cannot get it straight now, what would an additional tax gain?

    • Judy, V & all,

      Seems like poll taxes were used to stop some class of people from voting. In America, even a bum living on the street is supposed have the same rights as any other citizen. So that has to be a no.

      Property tax should also be made illegal. And frankly all other taxes except
      either a flat tax or fair tax. That’s the only way we will ever keep track of how our government is putting the screws to us.

      • Thank LOI

        I couldn’t agree with you more. Enough is enough.

      • v. Holland says:

        Yes the poll tax was used in a bad way but my understanding is that it had to be paid every time you voted and it was cumulative and charged even if you didn’t vote-so if you decided to vote after a long time you could have a large bill to pay before you would be allowed to vote-I’m just talking about a small one time charge to register-to try and stop all the multiple registrations-I don’t like taxes either but something has to be done to stop voter fraud-having to show identification would be sufficient but Congress won’t allow that because the amendment outlawed poll taxes at least that is my understanding.

        • Should homeless poor people be denied their right to vote then? Or are you going to set up a massive government bureaucracy to deal with subsidies?

          Are you saying voter fraud is ok as long as you’re rich enough to buy multiple votes? (I don’t really think that, but that’s one of the consequences of your proposal.)

          • v. Holland says:

            I’m not saying any of those things-which is why I asked the question-I’m not sure what I think, I’m just looking at possibilities -I just know that something needs to be done and I believe that people should have to show a picture ID to vote-Perhaps voter registration cards should come with pictures like our drivers licenses do, it’s not like it’s a surprise to people that they can start voting at 18-surely it’s not out of line to feel that they could and should find a way to register and get a picture taken.
            I see people in the grocery store taking pictures of people, I’ve seen registration tables set up in the grocery stores -so maybe that would work, or maybe they could register people at the post office.

  48. Has anybody here heard about some billboard that went up in L.A. with a picture of Obama’s face as Heath Ledger’s the Dark Knight on it? My cousin told me this morning when I got to work. He said there are a few of them up, and all hell is breaking out because of it.

  49. Flag,

    You are such a stick in the mud, I don’t know why the rest of us play with you.
    OK, you somehow make being geek smart look cool, but still, you side-stepped what G.A. was driving at.

    How about if nearly everyone else here, like me, insists on a government, out of self interest, would VDLG not be better than what we have? Or how would you either correct the US form of government or write your own constitution?

    As for myself, my basic requirements are:

    National defense
    No property tax (once you own something, its yours)
    Court system (I don’t want to have to shoot my neighbor to settle a fence being six inches in his yard)including looser pays to counter BS lawsuits
    Some limits on modern weapons such as nuclear, nerve, etc
    Term limits for all, including SCOTUS
    Perhaps a fourth check on government that reviews every law to determine if it is constitutional or not
    Line item veto for POTUS
    Laws to be single issue only, and no more than?? 50 pages??
    Congressional pay and benefits to be controlled by each state, to come from their budget
    Every government program, organization, etc. to be offered for private companies to operate(there are private companies that run police, fire and ambulance services in some US cities)

    I’m sure I left some things out, hope others will point out my omissions.

    Come on Flagster, would you rather let Ray or Chris Devine write our new constitution? It does not mean you support it, just that it would be a drop of sewage in that glass of water, instead of a slightly damp cup-of-chit.

    G.A., apologies, meant to and wanted to do more, life gets in the way sometimes.
    Will try to do more in days ahead, looking at this as a long term assignment.

    • LOI, what good would line item veto be if bills could only concern 1 thing? I might add that the bills be written in language that most people could understand…like me!

      I would also like the congress not to have the power to vote for their own raises…Hell, if we had that power, there would be no middle class…

      • Terry,

        My bad, I am confused. That’s what happens when I try that thinking thing, and then the headache comes. But in my defense, belt and suspenders, make it as hard to pass any/every law as possible.
        Why don’t we require them to donate a pint of blood for every bill they vote in favor of? Does not matter if they are a viable doner or not, nor if it causes death due to to much blood loss.

      • v. Holland says:

        I’m not sure they would ever get one if the people had to vote on it-maybe just some more controls about when and how much based on how the economy is doing.

        • I am pretty sure that unless there was some change for the good, they would never get a raise…they sure haven’t deserved one in my lifetime,(50+ years) but lord knows they have received plenty!

    • LOI, I think in some cases, not all, that Black Flag makes some very good points. I’m always sure that I understand why he is a black flag, but, what he says are his principles, and darn is he stubborn (LOL).

      My world has gone through many major changes in the last 8 months, so in many ways no government sounds better than the quacks we have now. Yes, that would cause great harm to people, but we would survive and continue on. Some of us are better suited to that than others, but we are still compassionate, and can reorganize. NO, I’m not flying a black flag. There is much we could do better, until we sieze that chance, nothing will change.

      I expressed some ideas yesterday, but didn’t get much feedback.

      G!

      • BF almost always has good points. He is very consistent in his beliefs. My concern is that what he would like to see happen is not realistic, at least not in my lifetime. But I only know that I do not know…maybe he is on to something, maybe he is not.

        I can say that when I read his posts, they challenge my thought processes, and that can never be a bad thing.

        I would just like the government to adhere to the constitution, and leave me the hell alone. I understand that paying taxes is one of the two sure things in life, but enough is enough. I have been saying for a long time, that the government would push too far and there would be some sort of uprising…I believe it is building.

        • Flag can sure make the noggin work, that’s for sure. One thing I have learned is to be patient when replying to him. I wasn’t yesterday, my bad!

          Taxed too much and tired as well. Once they pass “Cap and Screw America” that might be the final straw for most of us.

          G!

        • Black Flag says:

          Terry

          You hit the nail on the head.

          Are you willing to work for a goal that might not manifest itself until you’re long dead?

          Are you demanding a fix right now?

          Or are you working to make your grandchildren or maybe your children free?

          Ah, G-man, you’re a very smart dude – and on your worst day, I’d rather you backin’ me up than a Socialist on their good day 😉

      • Sorry G!,

        I thought your responses were well thought out, although that India portal, if used in the US, your name would go on Janet (some other planet’s) list.

        General welfare, to me, is a typo that needs correcting. My not well thought post
        “Every government program, organization, etc. to be offered for private companies to operate”, I meant to add an automatic expiration date on every program, law, etc., etc.. Force review of everything that government has enacted every so many years.

        “Utilizing our right to redress our grievances to the govt.”

        While I am not opposed to your thoughts, let me toss out a problem. Criminal charges in the US are brought by a prosecuting attorney. Obama firing GM’s CEO is illegal only if his AG decides to file charges? One problem our founders never envisioned was later generations changing the actual meaning of the words they had written. What good is it to say thou shalt not steal, if government taking by force cannot mean stealing?

    • Black Flag says:

      LOI

      You are such a stick in the mud, I don’t know why the rest of us play with you.

      ‘Cause I have all the best video games.

      😉

      How about if nearly everyone else here, like me, insists on a government, out of self interest, would VDLG not be better than what we have?

      I guess dying by being blown apart all at once is preferred over slowly being diced up on a meat machine.

      However, in the end, you’re dead.

      I am not against VLDG at all – it will all depend on the core principle that makes it –

      And in fact, I am currently composing a “How do we get There from Here” post.

      Or how would you either correct the US form of government or write your own constitution?

      You’ve missed the point (and so has G.A.)

      There is no way to limit government by a written constitution as long as the core premise of such an entity is rooted in attacking non-violent people.

      It will always (and I do not use that word lightly) become a tyranny.

      So, the key is the core principle. As soon as the people no longer support such assault on the innocent as legitimate, then anything (other than government) is possible.

      As for myself, my basic requirements are:

      National defense
      No property tax (once you own something, its yours)
      Court system (I don’t want to have to shoot my neighbor to settle a fence being six inches in his yard)including looser pays to counter BS lawsuits
      Some limits on modern weapons such as nuclear, nerve, etc
      Term limits for all, including SCOTUS
      Perhaps a fourth check on government that reviews every law to determine if it is constitutional or not
      Line item veto for POTUS
      Laws to be single issue only, and no more than?? 50 pages??
      Congressional pay and benefits to be controlled by each state, to come from their budget
      Every government program, organization, etc. to be offered for private companies to operate(there are private companies that run police, fire and ambulance services in some US cities)

      I’m sure I left some things out, hope others will point out my omissions.

      So everyone ignored Kent’s question:

      “If government is so noble, why does it require force and violence to maintain itself?”

      Come on Flagster, would you rather let Ray or Chris Devine write our new constitution?

      What ever they conceived would collapse in less than a 100 years. (See Russia, China et al)

      The point, LOI, is that unless specific core principles are held to be immutable – the consequence will always be (and always has been) tyranny.

      Isn’t it time to think of some other way?

      • My dear esteemed Flag,

        Thank you for a timely and thoughtful response. I have been reading your posts on this so far, and while I find them thought provoking, can’t help thinking starting from scratch is like reinventing the wheel. But I am willing to consider you take on this matter.

        “There is no way to limit government by a written constitution as long as the core premise of such an entity is rooted in attacking non-violent people.” OK, you have my agreement with that one.

        Looking forward to you How to get there post. I will of course, look for some other nit to pick with you in the meantime.

  50. Isn’t it time to think of some other way?

    I’d have to agree here, because the way it IS, stinks and is not working. Patience tonight, on my part. Talked to a good friend tonight as well, glad he is doing well.

    Thanks for the props earlier Flag, I do take care of those that care. Looking forward to your upcoming article!!

    G!

  51. BF said: And in fact, I am currently composing a “How do we get There from Here” post.
    Can’t wait….

  52. So, now they want to pass this health care crap with just 50 votes. How, praytell can they do that? What, the republicans don’t even get a vote on this? Is this what they call a democracy? How can this be the majority vote when only 50 votes will let this stupid bill pass?

    Are they that in big if a hurry to screw this country and people? So, if this great bill passes, then those especially the seniors who might need to get a cortisone shot won’t be able to. If they have cancer, oh well, too bad, they can’t get their treatments anymore, go ahead and lay down and die. That’s what they’re telling them. God, what’s going to happen if little kids and babies get cancer or some other horrible illness that need medication, let me guess, too bad, you don’t qualify. Is this what I am led to believe what’s going to happen if this bill passes. They are going to decide on who lives and who doesn’t.

    I just pray to God, that nothing happens to my mother, and she doesn’t get sick or needs to see the doctor for anything, because she will probably have to wait too long, then it will be too late.

    She told me yesterday, that she thought maybe she should go back and live with my sister because my dad had bought and paid for their burial plots, and she thought she wouldn’t be allowed to be buried with my dad, and have to be buried up here. I asked her why she felt that way, wasn’t she happy living here with us. She said Oh Yes I am happy living here because you treat me so good. I told her she can’t go back because she would be alone all day everyday while my sister works. I asked her, what if you fell down and hurt yourself? Who would know until Darlene came home, or what if you fell and hit your head, and knocked yourself out, or had a heart attack? What would you do, who would be there to help you?

    The reason She is here I told her, so she won’t be left alone all day, that somebody is always with her in case something happened, and that we wanted her to live here with us, because #1. was because we love her and we wanted her here. #2. So she isn’t lonely anymore.

    When she told me about maybe moving back with my sister, I had a really creepy feeling, like she has a premonition about something, like dying soon or something. I heard, that before older people die, they have conversations with dead relatives and friends. I don’t know if she has or not, haven’t heard her talking to anybody else besides us.

    I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to go into that, it was just because of this stupid, stupid health care bill that these dumocrats want to hurry and pass.

    Judy

    • My friend, Our elders know what they want, and they have reasons for it. I am so not looking to bury my parents, and whatever they want I will help them to achieve. Let them live!

      G!

  53. Black Flag says:

    DaveE

    If BF wishes to post one-sided horror stories, I’ll just reciprocate.
    I’m sure you guys can handle it. I mean, obviously you can dish it out, I expect you to be able to take it on the chin.

    Reciprocate with what? Use the US Government run Medicaid and Medicare as counter examples? Go for it! (Talk about bombing your own troops….)

    But what I would really like to read from you, Dave, is the economic theory that shows that providing a good/service below cost will create abundance of such services, and not exhaustion.

  54. Got this off the Drudge Report, and thought I’d put it in here.

    The White House-Blog Post-Facts Are Stubborn Things

    There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control personal finances to end life care. These rumors often travel below the surface via chair or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, they are asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

    There you have it, Now they want us turned in for bitching about their health care plan. Now, I suppose they will come knocking in your door because we are against his stupid health care plan.

    Come and get me Obama, I dare you.

    • I intend to find out what they are planning to do. I sent them my own web address with a request about what they intended to do with the information.

      This was my email:
      “What is the purpose of the following request?

      “There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out
      there, spanning from control personal finances to end life care. These
      rumors often travel below the surface via chair or through casual
      conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the
      White House, they are asking for your help. If you get an email or see
      something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy,
      send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”

      What will be done with the information given. I know of a great deal
      of people and publications in opposition to this plan, including some
      ideas of my own. I wish to know what will be done with information
      sent to this email.

      respectfully,
      Jon Smith
      limberwulf@gmail.com
      http://thelibertarianblog.com

      I will keep everyone posted of any replies.

  55. Everything on the planet and in the universe evolves. It is a cause and effect process that is an objective manifestation that is independent of subjective notions of what should and shouldn’t be.
    Political and social change is not the result of secret conspiracies by large national and international organizations.
    All change is something that occurs because at a particular point in time, due to objective circumstances, situations and conditions, it becomes imperative and necesary that a particular change takes place, a change that is the only possible thing that can happen, because all other options had been exausted.
    The “Global Economy” and the “New World Order,” evolved, … and is something that was predictable and was not the result of a world wide secret conspiracy of international bankers and liberal politicians. It evolved because the capitalist system could evolve in no other way.
    “Capitalism” has outgrown Nationalism” and the only possible direction that the system of capitalism can move toward so that it could continue to grow, … is toward the system of “Globalism!”

    http://blogdespicable.blogspot.com/

    • Black Flag says:

      As commonly done, many confuse Capitalism with Mercantilism.

      Despicable, bone up on the ‘isms’.

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