More Media Bias and Marginalizing American Sentiment

Right Wing Extremist on BoardWhat would happen if that creepy “Sham Wow” pitch guy had an audience that called him out on the things a critical viewer notices in his sham of a commercial? What if someone pointed out during the commercial that that piece of rug he just showed wasn’t the same one that he had just poured the soda on (or pointed out that he shouldn’t beat up prostitutes?) ? Last week, when I had time, I was following the happenings of the supposed “town hall” meetings that were happening throughout the country. With Congress in recess, members were back in their districts “getting in touch with their people” (read as: doing more personal Sham Wow commercials for health care BS). I think that the answer to what would happen to the Sham Wow guy is being shown to us each day at these town hall meetings. I know my liberal friends here are going to cry foul, but I am personally tiring of every public outcry against the policies of this administration being labeled as either “right wing extremists” or “GOP plants that are not the feelings of regular voters”…..

ShamWow GuyIt isn’t that I don’t recognize that there are, in fact, some groups out there organizing protests of the town halls. And it certainly isn’t that I don’t see some instances where the people in these meetings have been too disrespectful or too concerned with making a spectacle of themselves as opposed to having their voice heard. The bottom line is that there ARE some groups out there that are organizing and rallying in some “suspect” ways. But they are not the majority. And there is little doubt that the groups organizing on the right side of the issues are being treated far differently than the groups who organized on the left were treated by the main stream media.

I was reading an article the other night from the New York Times. I paid particular interest to the article because it was talking about Frank Kratovil, the representative from Maryland, specifically the representative for the district that I used to live in and where several of my friends (including revolution2010) live now. There were certainly actions that were not simply health care discussions or debates. For example, one opponent of health care reform reportedly hung an effigy of Kratovil outside his district office. The article talked about how “200 angry conservatives confronted him” over health care at a town hall meeting. And it then discussed how President Obama’s political organization sent a mass e-mail “urging supporters to turn out for a Kratovil event at a library, to ‘make sure your support for health insurance reform is seen and heard.’

The article went on to make some pretty partisan judgements and proclamations. Just a few copy and pastes to highlight the mood of the article. I will put a link to the article at the bottom of this article:

  • The traditional town hall meeting, a staple of Congressional constituent relations, had been hijacked, overrun by sophisticated social-networking campaigns — those on the right protesting so loudly as to shut down public discourse and those on the left springing into action to shut down the shutdowns. (Portraying the dissent as nothing more than an attempt to shut down debate and the resulting liberal action a justified attempt to “shut down the shut down)
  • NY Times LogoAlong the way, another kind of Joe — Joe Six-Pack, the average Joe — seemed to disappear, pushed into the background by crowds bearing scripted talking points and signs. (I have watched coverage of this over the last week. Anyone who can form a coherent sentence and ask a legit question that people have were called plants with a scripted agenda)
  • Now, though, the complaining constituent is not always who he seems to be. In Wisconsin last week, Representative Steve Kagen, a Democrat, was challenged on health care by a woman who declared herself politically unaffiliated; the local television station later discovered that she was a former Republican Party official who had worked for Mr. Kagen’s opponent in his Congressional race. (You know what I am a former Republican who worked for John McCain’s campaign against Bush in 2000, but I am absolutely not politically affiliated now. So you should ignore me when I make that statement because it wasn’t true 9 years ago?)
  • Some might call it democracy in action, but there is a risk. If the pattern continues, lawmakers could grow suspicious, refusing to believe that their encounters with voters are genuine. (In other words, an attempt to stop the dissent by claiming it has the opposite effect)
  • “When a politician can’t tell what’s grassroots and what’s Astro, that’s dangerous,” Mr. Zelizer said. “In the long term, that could undermine the potential of grassroots mobilizers to change things. At a certain point, it’s crying wolf. No one is going to believe it’s real.” (Again the same attempt to quiet dissent, and the common liberal claim of “an astro” movement)
This was the most generous percentage I found

This was the most generous percentage I found

Now I will point out that if I make statements like those above, with an obvious partisan twist on the events, or in the case of the second two, with the intent of silencing dissent, liberals on this site would call me a closet Republican with an agenda. And these quotes were taken from an article in the New York Times, a “reputable news source”, not a blog by a guy who is just fed up with government. I am first, allowed to be biased even when I attempt to look at things honestly. And second, I don’t think it is out of line to expect the supposedly honest news media to not show bias. We know they do, that isn’t the argument here. They could at least try to fool us instead of being so openly liberal.

Other articles that I read from Fox News, CBS News, Real Clear Politics, pointed out the declarations coming from leaders in the Democratic party this weekend. These comments highlight the way that the protesters are being demonized and discredited:

  • Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin, D-Ill., said there are plenty of Americans who just want to attend the meetings and ask “honest questions” about health care reform. But he said they’re being squeezed out by an organized opposition movement. “This is clearly being orchestrated and these folks have instructions,” he said on CNN’s “State of the Union,” adding that it’s not right for those who are part of that movement to disrupt the meetings.
  • Tom Harkin was interrupted several times by critics in the audience. He drew outrage Saturday when he told the crowd there is a “nationally coordinated effort” to disrupt the town halls.
  • Democratic National Committee’s press secretary Hari Sevugan said nationwide protests of democratic health care town hall events were “manufactured outrage “
  • Politico’s Josh Kraushaar said that regions where these protests have occurred since the weekend are actually very Democratic and polls have indicated that people there support the president’s health care plan. “The notion that there is a grassroots activism in those areas is somewhat unlikely. It suggests that you are seeing the pressure of outside groups,” he said.
  • Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid characterized town-hall dissenters as “loud, shrill voices trying to interrupt” and “throw a monkey wrench into everything.”
  • Both the White House and Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi say the dissent is being “manufactured” by political and corporate organizations; Pelosi dismisses town-hall dissent as “astroturf,” or artificially generated faux-grassroots movements.
Olbermann and uber liberal propagandist Rachel Maddow

Olbermann and uber liberal propagandist Rachel Maddow

And of course there is the rest of the main stream media. Of course they are jumping on the bandwagon, or better phrased, leading the charge to discredit all the folks opposed to the health care reform we are seeing discussed in Congress these days: Keith Olbermann, in a report titled “Political Terrorism” reporting on the dissenters at the town hall meetings: “When Hamas does it or Hezbollah does it, it’s called terrorism. Why should Republican lawmakers and the astroturf groups organizing on behalf of the health care industry be viewed any differently. Especially now that far too many tea party protesters are comparing President Obama and health care reform to Hitler and the holocaust? The grass roots movements may be fake but the anger of Americans lashing out at health care events now dangerously real.”

What strikes me most about all of the things that I have written above, couple with all I have shown you about the media and Democratic leaders takes on the Tax Day Tea Parties, is the absolute hypocrisy that exists in their reporting. Bill O’Reilly, of all people, got it right when he discussed this hypocrisy. The fact is that “organized protests” are absolutely nothing new in the American landscape. It is just usually the left that has been using them for the last 8 years or so. Realistically, it started well before that. The anti-war protests during the Vietnam war were very organized. The civil rights protests were very organized. Environmental protests and abortion rights demonstrations are very organized.

Code Pink at their Finest!

Code Pink at their Finest!

But let’s look at what we have seen in recent history. In an organized protest widely applauded by the main stream media, the founder of “The Minutemen” were shouted down at Columbia University. Hundreds of protesters organized by a left wing group shouted down and eventually unfurled a 40 foot banner across the stage when Tom Tancredo visited UNC to discuss health care earlier this year. Again widely applauded by the media. And the examples are too numerous to mention of the good media attention given to organized protests from groups such as Code Pink or the Cindy Sheehans of the world or even organized attempts to throw pies at Ann Coulter.

The fact is that the left has a long and distinguished history of organizing and protesting, often violently and certainly in the examples provided above, in a manner that completely disrupts the talk, town hall meeting, or debate at hand. And when these things happen, the media accepts them as an honest appraisal of the American sentiment. No questions are asked about the groups who organize the protests or actions by the left. Yet the second that a conservative protest happens, the participants are portrayed as fringe radicals and nothing more than plants from right wing groups. And then they follow up with a hard look at what group might be behind it and why it is an “astro” movement.

The fact is that these protests are not fringe groups. A large percentage of Americans are unhappy with today’s government, and especially unhappy with the speed and folly that the last 6 months of legislation seems to have been done with. According to Rasmussen, Americans oppose health care reform as it is currently being debated 55%-35%. That isn’t a fringe group, that is a majority. Rasmussen also found that only 16% of Americans think health care should be the top priority for Congress this year. Out of control spending in Washington coupled with a massive increase in government size and scope over the last two decades has pushed people to the tipping point. And they are starting to get angry.

That isn’t to say that there are not some groups working to stir the hornet’s nest. There certainly are. Claims of outrage over “fear being used as a means to get people to act” ring deaf from an administration and liberal media that has used the word “crisis” a million times to pass sweeping legislation in record time. But I believe that the majority of the people showing up at these town hall meetings are there because they are concerned with what they are seeing in Washington. Groups may point them in the right direction, but it is the anger and passion that drives them to act. And Washington better start paying attention.

The tactics that worked for the left for years are finally being used by the right: Organization and loud protest. And every time the hypocrites in the MSM and Washington denounce these movements after supporting them when the were for liberal causes, they are losing credibility and angering the masses more. Guys like Olbermann may make the far left fringe pee their pants with excitement, but he is quickly turning the tide of moderates against the Democratic party, just like the far right fringe did to Republican moderates several years ago.

The media isn’t outraged that there are groups organizing against health care and out of control spending and government infringement. They just aren’t sure what to do now that the left is getting a little bit of its own medicine.

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I used quotes and information from about 20 articles for this article. The four below contained the quotes I used.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/weekinreview/09stolberg.html?hpw

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/09/real-contrived-lawmakers-argue-nature-health-care-protests/

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/04/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5213270.shtml

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/08/democrats_target_orchestrated.html

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Comments

  1. You see this from both sides though, the people for us are “honest and heartfelt” and the people against us are “liars and kooks” that are part of a conspiracy to silence the movement.

    My opinion on healthcare is this: Why don’t they (lawmakers) just fix the problems that exist instead of adding another layer to the top of it? If this was only about covering the un-insured it would be one thing, but it seems that Con-gress is adding another layer of complexity onto the system. Which will probably have the opposite effect that is promised. After all, when is the last time a gov’t project was on budget? Especially an extremely complex social program.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      Edward – I used to drive an old Buick LeSabre. Damn car was a money pit that I kept having to tweak and pour money into to get it to work right. It never worked right. I soon realized it was an exercise in futility and I was never going to fix the problem. I replaced the car. The newer car has had some problems over time, requires some care and feeding and tweaking but I am much happier.

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

        So Ray,

        If you had replaced your car with a bigger piece of junk than what you originally had to begin with, and you had no option to return the bigger piece of junk or get a refund and were just stuck with the bigger piece of junk, that would be good?

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          No Peter – I made an effort to make sure the next car was not also a piece of shit.

          • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

            Ray, I suspect that if you purchase a new vehicle, you read Car & Driver, Consumer Reports, and other sources. You then question people about the cars that they have recently purchased and ask them questions (and are highly suspect of any cars which elicit BS answers), and then you go to several dealerships, pick out several models to test drive, and eventually come up with the vehicle that is right for your needs. In addition, I am sure you carefully check to see that there is a good warranty, and perhaps even an option to return the car if it turns out to be a lemon.

            Would you not expect congress to do all of these things AND MORE when revamping something as critical to our physical and financial well being as the US Healthcare system?

            Cobbling together a 1200 page bill from writers unknown (we know congress doesn’t write most of what is in their own bills), not even reading it, and then trying to ram it through before August recess in order to avoid precisely the type of debate that they are getting now was a HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE thing for Congress to attempt to do, and now they are getting called on it.

            They need to do AT LEAST as much homework as you do when purchasing a new vehicle, and they need to be able to demonstrate to the people that they did their homework. They also need to be able to come up with logical, concise answers to the critical questions that people are asking.

            I am not saying healthcare cannot be made better than it currently is, but if Congress isn’t willing to even do what the average person does when replacing a vehicle, I damn sure don’t want them replacing the entire healthcare system!

            • Peter:

              “I am not saying healthcare cannot be made better than it currently is”

              It absolutely can not be improved by any action taken by Congress.

              Unless of course Congress were to eliminate all federal intervention in the system. But I am guessing a snowball has a better chance of surviving in hell.

              Did it break 90 yet in Indy?
              JAC

              • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

                JAC,

                I agree that congress is incapable of “fixing” anything – especially something as complex as the healthcare system. I just wanted to point out to Ray (and everyone else) that one of the MANY reasons that this is so is that they can’t even put the same effort into it that Ray would put into buying a car.

                And yes, it hit 90 a few times over the weekend finally. Only the 4th and 5th 90 degree + days for the entire summer so far. Usually be now we have had at least 16 days at or above 90.

                Supposed to still be relatively hot and humid this week, but no days above 90 projected.

                Being as used to the 70s and 80s as I have become, the weekend was quite uncomfortable. 🙂

          • But us citizens cant make sure that this new piece of junk(obamacare) is better than the last piece of junk or were called kooks and astroturf plants.Yet when we buy a car we can ask questions and the dealer doesnt attack us as being extremist just trying to ruin his all about him dealership

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              Ty – do you scream at the car dealer and parade signs in from of him showing him hanging from gallows or buried six feet under?

              • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

                In the case of MOST car dealers, that type of behavior is not necessary. The car dealer is far more honest than the average politician 🙂

              • Mike M. Houston Texas says:

                I think if he was the only car dealer in town with ultimate control and had already sold him lemons then maybe he should scream and parade to get him to stop and think about what he was doing. Or should we limit his freedom of speech to only what the dealer finds acceptable????

      • Of course trading one car for another is not the same as trading away your Liberty and Freedom for the illusion of security, is it?

    • Don’t know if “Con-gress” was intentional, as in the opposite of “Pro-gress”.

      The crooks are showing their true colors. I think we are all tired of having our intelligence insulted by these people who know what we “need”.

  2. CWO2USNRet says:

    Assume for a moment that Town Hall dissenters are organized:

    The Community Organizers now think community organizing is wrong!?
    Oh…the hypocrisy. Un-freaking-believable, well actually it is believable.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      No CWO – organizing and hijacking a town hall meeting is not the same thing. Take the yelling and screaming outside – some of us actually want to hear what the elected suits have to say.

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

        Ray,

        I agree that the yelling and screaming inside the meetings is inappropriate. Better to ask questions, and then if you get a weasly answer, calmly tell the politician that they gave a weasly answer and you expect a better answer out of them.

        Regardless of whether you are a “real” protester or an “astroturfer” you would be better off asking intelligent questions and letting the politician clearly make a fool of themselves trying to answer, and then calmly pointing out that they had made a fool of themselves.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          I will give credit to many out there – people are becoming increasingly better at throwing the bullshit flag on a politician who rather than answer honestly feeds you more bs.

      • CWO2USNRet says:

        Ray,

        Agree that yelling and screaming are inappropriate for that setting. Fortunately it’s only happening in a small percentage of the meetings. Unfortunately, it’s that small percentage the media chooses to air.

        The vast majority of the meetings are not hijacked, civility is maintained. It’s just that previously non-politically active citizens are choosing to become involved. Nothing wrong with that, whether ‘organized’ or not.

        John

    • Assume for a moment those entering show ID with their name and address viewable. Pretty easy to whittle out those who have been “brought in” for the event and I’m certain those putting on the “Town Hall” know this too but I’d wager the actuality of who is in attendance would be far too embarrassing. They certainly can’t blame a lack of manpower as “their own” people are numerous and can check ID’s at the door while they are busy filming those who dare to speak out. Hell, how difficult is it to use the digital version of the voter registry? Not at all but…

      Watching report after report on the internet not making so much as a blip on CNN which I have had one every morning since Kenneth Gladney was introduced to the unions, I’m now more interested in SEIU members in attendance mailing addresses. I’m well versed in unions and they have specific members whose job is to promote the union agenda and union member participation in events deemed important by the union hierarchy. They float from event to job site to event all year long and in doing so are most certainly not merely working in their own neighborhoods. ACORN has shown itself to posses members whose job actually is protesting and has show itself to be able to mobilize them en mass within hours.

      Now you have closed “Town Hall” meetings? On the list only and questions submitted in writing? Even Ray will have a hard time defending this one without coming off like Nancy “I see Nazi’s!” Pelosi.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        No – but what is the middle ground Alan? Limit it to residents of the particular district and media? Its just turned into a damn circus which is not where it should have gone.

        • Currently the argument from Pelosi and crew is that these “Town Hall” are full of industry “ringers”. She’s said it many times already and with grade school verbosity so there’s little chance of mistaking her intent. So yes indeed limit it to constituents period. Why is that such a no-no? It successfully weeds out a good portion of those “groups” trying to influence the outcome and visible flavor of the “Town Hall” regardless of political leanings. Why would that be a bad thing?

  3. Nancy Pelosi visited a Denver clinic and here is a pictorial of what happened there.

    http://www.lookingattheleft.com/2009/08/pelosi-astroturf-healthcare/

    Again, the total disdain for regular Americans is a real eye-opener. Now that BO’s union thugs have been invited in (I’m sure Acorn too), it could get really ugly, and of course, the “right wing terrorists” will be blamed. AARP has been caught with their pants down as well and is trying to appease everyone (nice job here Garth!).

    The one good thing about all of this, if anyone still believed in their government reps and the MSM, this ought to take care of that.

    • Good grief…this administration is even worse than the peanut farmers…by a landslide.

    • I’m still wondering why the Congresswoman from the 6th district of California, representing San Francisco, was in Colrado at all, unless she was on vacation. Don’t care if she is the speaker, If she came to my district, I would kindly ask her if she thought she was representing me when i wasn’t afforded the chance to vote for, or against her.

  4. Ray Hawkins says:

    USW – interesting but flawed and incendiary post. I have watched this ‘issue’ with interest because yes, I truly believe that we need at least a two party system and yes, I believe it is a good thing for a Republican/Conservative movement to grow up from the roots and challenge Democrats on their own roots rather than pandering to religious fundamentalism or Hispanics or whatever group they sniff an election victory coming through. What I was leery of was a top down approach that bastardizes the concepts, ideas and movement such that it becomes business as usual and a tit for tat operation that serves no ones best interests.

    So – to this notion of organized protests and our wonderful democracy in action. Now – let me be clear – it seems as though you are saying town hall meetings are a waste of time to begin with because you see them as nothing more than another ‘sham wow’ pitch campaign for the Healthcare Reform actions currently in play? I would find this sentiment disappointing from someone (and his supporters) who CONSTANTLY carp about a lack of transparency, accessibility and information. So which way is it folks? Do you want your Congress to hold MORE town halls and cover a wider breadth of issues and give more people an opportunity to present their thoughts, share their opinions and tell their stories? Or do you simply look at it as something else to bitch about and whine like a bunch of crybabies because an elected suit isn’t too interested in hearing you blow off about how the government is trying to kill old people?

    So – lets take this a step further. And go ahead and call me naive, or whatever liberal epithet suits you, but I see a huge difference between town hall meetings with our elected officials and other forms of public discourse or meeting. You want to flash signs, scream and yell at people, taunt, assault, attack, whatever – take that shit somewhere else. Take it in the street, buy a permit for a parade, or grab two bullhorns and shout at each other in the local park until you’re blue in the face. The problem USW, is in order to prop up one side, you’ve lumped everything together. Tom Tancredo is a “former” member of Congress. He isn’t making decisions for anyone. Its bs that he was allowed to properly offer his anti-immigration views at UNC (not HC) by groups from both aisles that wanted to hear what he had to say – a few ruined it for the many. But that was not a “Town Hall”. A Town Hall is my elected folks from Congress sitting squarely in front of me so they can be asked questions and provide, from their gut, information and answers and positions. Cyndi Sheehan? Not a town hall. Tom Tancredo? Not a town hall. Lumping everything into the same bucket is a clever but intellectually corrupt conservative practice because rather than dispassionately understanding the issues, it is far more effective politically to turn a small town hall into a protest best found on the Mall in D.C. Ever try reading the newspaper with someone standing there screaming in your face?

    So – I would challenge both sides to lay off the Monster energy drinks and try for once to embrace the opportunity to understand an issue rather than yelling and screaming.

    If you’re from the right, put down the goddamn signs and sit on your hands for a minute. Ask smart provoking questions and see if your elected person has the spine to answer you. If you don’t like the answer then don’t start yelling – other people may have questions also and want to hear what is happening.

    If you’re from the left, give your brethren from the right an opportunity to hear and question and understand – give them some breathing room – many are inherently pissed because they don’t like much of anything that is happening now. Simply yelling at them will not cause them to see things “your way” any more than the opposite is true.

    • Like I said above. Both sides do this type of thing.

      Ray, I agree partially with the last two paragraphs. Yes, you need to have good constructive Q and A sessions. But a small amount of in your face fury is needed as well. A correct mix of the two gets the job done. The news is only showing the fury, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t some Q & A going on too.

      Remember, MSM is showing people what MSM wants them to see. IMO 20% of the content of a news story is likely to be true and the rest will be taken out of context or will be an inferred statement.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        How/why does fury work? It does not work in any other human-human interaction – ever – why would you see it effective in politics? If I used ‘fury’ in business I’d probably be fired.

        • If it doesn’t work Ray then why does the Left use it so often?

          • Because it works “for them” and that’s the rub here.

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              Alan – when? where? Please be more specific.

              Thanks.

              • If you want specific events/dates I’ll dig them up. How many would satisfy?

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                Are we making the same point Alan? SS needed reform and look what happened – jack squat. I don’t condone or endorse bullying tactics by either side. I don’t agree with how Bush II intended to reform SS but that is for another time n place. I strongly disliked people like Santorum, and am eternally grateful he is no longer in office – but I never would have resorted to the caveman approach with an ass like him.

              • Actually it accomplished in a great many cases the taking of a small scale group to national status and in this case completely without the MSM’s aid. Each time this hits the internet attention is drawn to another Senator telling a doctor he knows nothing of the needs of his patients nor the neighborhood in which his practice is located and more in the middle choose a side. I’d say any time that happens its meant something to someone.

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            You’re saying the Left uses fury in town hall meetings to accomplish mission/objectives/strategy? Are you saying it works elsewhere in politics? Please be more specific.

            Thanks

            • I didn’t say anything. I asked a simple question that you ignored.

              You tell me, why do they use it if it never works?

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                JAC – No – you used a tired tactic of a general question so you can jackpot me. I’m not stupid. What is it you want to know? I asked you to clarify so I can support or clarify what I meant. Keeping the scope of the question at the same level doesn’t decompose the issue any better.

        • These are YOUR words Ray not mine:

          “How/why does fury work? It does not work in any other human-human interaction – ever – why would you see it effective in politics? If I used ‘fury’ in business I’d probably be fired.”

          These are MY words Ray:

          “If it doesn’t work Ray then why does the Left use it so often?”

          A simple question based on your assertion. No Jackpot as you call it.

          So could you please answer my simple question.

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            My original point JAC was that with respect to Town Hall meetings – the use of ‘fury’, screaming, shouting etc. is not an effective means of getting one’s point across or well understood or embraced by the person you are shouting at. Fury can mean a heck of a lot of of different things I suppose – I suppose it can also mean just plain old angry, pissed off, upset, in opposition to, and so on – those were not aspects of fury I was referring to due to the context of my original remarks. Demonstrating to your elected official that you have ‘fury’ and are very angry with a certain policy or decision or position in a dispassionate way is by all means a proper way to approach – screaming, chanting, yelling, attacking as a way to express your fury is not a particularly wise approach. I suppose you have a litany of examples ready and teed up to say “yeah Ray, what about a or b or c or d or e or f or g or h or i or so on and so forth” – so fire away JAC – seems you’re chomping at the bit. 😉

            • Yes I have examples of where I think it worked, and I am guessing you know of some as well. That is not the purpose here.

              You are not the only one to say that such displays are ineffective. Yet the Left continues to use this tactic. So logically either,

              a) It is effective or
              b) It is ineffective and therefore used for some other reason.

              If your stated view is true, it is ineffective, then I am at a loss as to what the other reason is.

              Those who have organized the movements and groups on the Left are very good at what they do. They would not encourage such displays of anger or fury, or outbursts, of they didn’t think they accomplished thier goals.

              Thus my conclusion is that it works. I guess the remaining question is what is it working on?

        • Politics is not business. It is, in part, a game of intimidation. So the protesters are trying to intimidate the politicians. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

          There is also a showmanship angle. If the protesters can get on TV, it widens their exposure.

          The politicians are trying to sell their point of view, the protesters are try to dissuade them by any means necessary short of physical violence, although the SEIU doesn’t stop short of violence.

          It all seems pretty normal to me. Many people, right and left use such tactics. If they didn’t think they work, they wouldn’t do it.

          Reasoned debate would be nice, but who would pay any attention to that? Certainly not the politicians. They understand only power.

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            Reasoned debate – has been used very effectively in my neck of the woods at the local township (grassroots) level.

            • Perhaps Ray, but at the national level it is useless. The Democrats in Congress aren’t even will to have open debates on these issues with Republicans in Congress, so what makes you think they are interested in having debates with average citizens who they assume are dumber than they are, lesser informed, or whatever it is that they think of the American Sheeple?

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                I guess I echo Chris and say a Democracy is really hard work. Done right one need not wait every two years to get some turnover – hell Arlen Specter flipped at the first sign of boo. They can think we’re all just a bunch of dumbasses – but the ever increasing noise on this tells me they take it at least a little seriously.

    • v. Holland says:

      Okay, let me see if I get this-it’s okay to disrupt any gathering where idea’s are being exchanged except for Town Hall meetings. Personally, I think we have lots of opportunities to listen to our reps. explain their policies but very few where the people get to tell the reps. up close and personal, what we think. So maybe our representatives need to spend some of this time with their constituents listening instead of trying to control the conversation. Controlling the conversation is just another way of silencing descent, and politicians very seldom actually answer a question. It’s unfortunate but it seems that the only way to be heard is to be loud and repetitious,it’s the only way to get them to hear you,instead of their own talking points.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        Good question V – disruption is not good – ever. It only accomplishes a neanderthal desire to unleash stress, anger, whatever. I was trying to get across that a town hall meeting is among the worst places for this to occur.

        • v. Holland says:

          I think you may have missed my point-what is considered disruptive by one may be considered as necessary by another, in order to be heard at all. Politicians have a way of just talking, talking, and talking. They stand up there with there prepared talking points and there intention(if you disagree with them) is to evade answering your question. There intention is to control the conversation hoping that our politeness will keep us quiet and keep us from making our point. If a politician simply won’t listen, then in my opinion, the town hall meeting is a good place to have some controlled, non violent loudness. Yelling, just say no , can not be drowned out by platitudes, and it isn’t violent. As long as the disruption is non violent, I personally think at this time in our history it is necessary.

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            Okay – I see your point V – its a thin line though.

            • I wouldn’t think so at all. The choice is to be heard shouting or not to be heard at all? What kind of choice is that? There’s waaaay too much footage on the internet of the “prepared representatives” stammering and floundering when asked legitimate and intelligent questions for the proponents of uni-health to garner anything but disdain. You know for a fact I’m happy with a lot of what uni-health is about. What I see as horrible is the way its being pushed, a “my way or my way” piece of legislation without a single attempt at realizing the actual results of a test in the American market to all these theories. Sad.

              He has 3.33 years to do this yet refuses to trial run anything? Wrong. Micro-model, work out the kinks and up the scale until it does settle into place. If its bad it’ll show before becoming a horror show and if its good its a done deal and an easy win for 4 more years. What’s to fear with that?

              Politico’s in charge of a couple trillion dollar health care system with slight oversight by other politico’s? Wrong. Politico’s are first and foremost about staying in power regardless of what or who it costs. If you are going to pick someone to be your drug dealer, make certain he’s not a junkie first!

              When you say “we’ll save X billions from this” be able to actually show “how”. The time when rhetoric without substance was acceptable had passed with the inauguration. Actually be able to answer questions with hard data. It can be done in America but as I see it, not by those currently at the wheel of uni-health.

              I’m damned glad they weren’t the ones working on ours. Oh and the force that’s been cracking the foundations of Canadian Health Care? One clue, a dishwasher made $10.25 an hour back in 1981 within the health care system where in a restaurant you would have made just over $3.00 and things have gotten worse each and every year since because of this type of “organizing”.

              • v. Holland says:

                “I wouldn’t think so at all. The choice is to be heard shouting or not to be heard at all? What kind of choice is that?”

                That’s the point, they haven’t been listening and the reason that the politicians are stammering and looking stupid is because people are not allowing them to not answer the questions anymore.

                By shouting things like Just say no, they are showing these politicians that we are not going to continue to listen to platitudes and that they better be prepared to actually answer the questions or we are going to yell and not allow them to have their cute little talking point blip for TV.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                So we keep shouting them down – not real effective at the end of the day.

              • v. Holland says:

                We shall see-Politicians really do want to be re-elected and if they are convinced that their VOTING constituents really are against them-most will vote to keep their job. Of course they have to be convinced and people have to follow thru and VOTE against them if they don’t.

              • Ah but the purpose is not to merely convince someone who cares not a whit about what “you” think but rather make him/her think about what’s to come for them. The only thing a politico fears is losing his place on high. The only way he/she loses that place is by the voters taking it away from him/her. The only way the voters choose to take it away from him/her or keep him/her in power is by being informed. If the MSM won’t shout it to the masses then who will? That the people themselves (mom and pop) have chosen to get off their collective buts and do it in actuality is scaring the crap out of politicos across America. In all the hours of footage online, the politico’s have never looked so unsure of themselves as in these “Town Hall” meetings facing off against angry grandmothers and shop keepers.

              • No less effective than playing nice and allowing the politicians to simply offer up their prepared talking points Ray. Perhaps the reason people are shouting them down is because the reasoned approach is not working. Politicians have caused this response from the people, not the other way around. Think about that.

        • The reason the people are going to these town hall meetings is because this is the only place they can attempt to have their message heard by their representative. Most people can’t afford to go to Washington and the politicians spend very little time in their districts so I think most people see this as their only chance to speak their minds. Whether there is 5, 10 or 50 people there, your one voice is all you have and very little time to use it…so they do whatever they need to do to be heard. I don’t feel being overly dispruptive as being helpful as it feeds the frenzy that the situation is “out of control”, not to mention its just plain rude to scream at someone just to scream. But the people are looking for answers and the questions are being answered by the same double-speak they’ve already heard that doesn’t make sense or just skirts around a real answer. Its like they don’t have any answers and are just going along with what the party wants.

        • Speaking of disruptions and violence , where can i get a “dont tread on Kenny” t-shirt.

    • Good morning to you, Ray. I am still keeping my mouth shut, eyes open, and fingers quiet on this blog. But wanted to say hi.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        Morning D13 – speak up! I sure as hell don’t have the answers and some of mine can be wrong. 😉

        • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

          Ray, the great thing is, none of us have all of the answers, and all of us have the wrong answer from time to time. What is fun is seeing when people who seem to generally have opposing views actually agree on more things than they realize.

          That is one of the reasons most of us are here I think.

        • OH…rest assured that I will speak up. I am still working on my new web site. It was tougher than anticipated and close to being finished. Doing research is time consuming but I have actually been talking personally to people and it is interesting the comments. I,also, have been actually reading the posts on here and comparing them to other blogs. I have read as many “left” wing sites as “right” wing sites and comparing them.

          In addition, since my retirement in April, I have become a political activist of sorts.(never thought I would stoop so low but have)…and I will continue. Sitting quiet never gets anything done so… I am learning. Forty years in the military as an officer means that you have to be quiet. You can take no public stances until retired. So, I am loading my guns (metaphor for those of you who think that is a violent reaction). There are many points and counter points and many agendas out there and several on this site. So, my definitions of patriot and zealot and activist are being tested right now and my patience is being tested as well.

          But my voice will be heard and my fingers will write.

          D13

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            D13 – was wondering about the website – pls let me know when live and good luck with the build process.

      • v. Holland says:

        I must of missed something-Why are you being quiet?

    • Ray
      Most of these people are angry because they feel it will do no good to protest. It will do no good at ask questions at a town hall meeting because they get scripted answers that do not answer their questions. Should a town hall meeting turn into a shouting match? NO. But I understand the anger none the less. I wrote letters to my Reps and one sent a form letter that answered none of my questions…the other two did not answer at all.
      These people feel like it will be shoved down their throat wheter they like it or not and that makes them very angry. I think it must be akin to force feeding a angry bear.
      I like most of them do not think it takes over 1000 pages to fix a problem that can be fixed in just a few pages. If the bill wasn’t so massive and full of BS the people would understand it better.
      The reps need to know their voting people are going to be angry if they pass this bill and they probably will not get re-elected. Why should we be good sheeple and just follow along like it does not matter?
      The masses are angry….what do you suggest they do to convey that anger to their reps?

      • They don’t know the answers, they haven’t read the bill. And Obama’s people are the organized thugs. I try posting on Fox but can’t seem to get my opinion heard. Sad!!

        • Fox’s PC filters make it neigh impossible to say anything negative without resorting to writing like a simpleton.

    • Ray,

      So – to this notion of organized protests and our wonderful democracy in action. Now – let me be clear – it seems as though you are saying town hall meetings are a waste of time to begin with because you see them as nothing more than another ’sham wow’ pitch campaign for the Healthcare Reform actions currently in play? I would find this sentiment disappointing from someone (and his supporters) who CONSTANTLY carp about a lack of transparency, accessibility and information. So which way is it folks? Do you want your Congress to hold MORE town halls and cover a wider breadth of issues and give more people an opportunity to present their thoughts, share their opinions and tell their stories? Or do you simply look at it as something else to bitch about and whine like a bunch of crybabies because an elected suit isn’t too interested in hearing you blow off about how the government is trying to kill old people?

      C’mon Ray. I know you want to argue with me, but really? Yes, I do see the town hall meetings as a sham in this case. I have watched, at this point 7 different complete (or at least significant portions of) meetings posted online. I have watched politicians dance around the questions and dodge giving answers. I have watched them hear the question asked and answer with a canned statement that doesn’t address the question but instead offers another prepared statement that is dishonest about health care. In general I see the town halls as a useful and good tool. In this case they are using them to sell a bill that is clearly not the right one for us. They, in what I have seen, are not often interested in really answering the questions or hearing what their constituents have to say.

      Do I condone the yelling down of these members of Congress. No, I don’t. But first I don’t think that it is the norm. And second, I do believe that it is the reaction that we are going to see when people are frustrated because they cannot get a straight answer and feel they are being ignored. The bottom line, Ray, is that people have had enough. They watch the democrats in Congress come right out and openly remove republicans in Congress from the conversation. They watched as the 800,000 tea party people were outright dismissed by the MSM and liberal members of Congress as “astro”. And they are tired of it.

      Go watch some more of the videos out there. Watch how these congressmen react to questions they don’t want to answer. Watch how they react when the scripted questions turn into real questions that need real answers instead of talking points. It is no wonder that people are getting angry and beginning to raise their voice a bit. I suggest that these members start to pay attention. This anger is real, not manufactured. And the next step will be violence if the democrats don’t pull their head out of their ass and realize that half of America DIDN’T vote for them.

      I see a huge difference between town hall meetings with our elected officials and other forms of public discourse or meeting. You want to flash signs, scream and yell at people, taunt, assault, attack, whatever – take that shit somewhere else. Take it in the street, buy a permit for a parade, or grab two bullhorns and shout at each other in the local park until you’re blue in the face. The problem USW, is in order to prop up one side, you’ve lumped everything together. Tom Tancredo is a “former” member of Congress. He isn’t making decisions for anyone. Its bs that he was allowed to properly offer his anti-immigration views at UNC (not HC) by groups from both aisles that wanted to hear what he had to say – a few ruined it for the many. But that was not a “Town Hall”. A Town Hall is my elected folks from Congress sitting squarely in front of me so they can be asked questions and provide, from their gut, information and answers and positions. Cyndi Sheehan? Not a town hall. Tom Tancredo? Not a town hall. Lumping everything into the same bucket is a clever but intellectually corrupt conservative practice because rather than dispassionately understanding the issues, it is far more effective politically to turn a small town hall into a protest best found on the Mall in D.C. Ever try reading the newspaper with someone standing there screaming in your face?

      No Ray, I don’t think that it is wrong to lump these things together. It isn’t intellectually corrupt. It is a series of examples that throughout history the tactic of organizing and disrupting public officials or those making a speech has ben done repeatedly by the left. And the media loves it. The second those on the right organize against an out of control liberal congress, the media throws around words like astro and political terrorism. There is one place that these people have access to their representatives. One place…. the town hall. So they chose to speak their mind there. And they are made into villains for it. The tea party protests, made into villains and derided as fake sentiment. In the eyes of the media it is OK to throw pies in the face of Coulter, to have code pink rush a woman into Secretary of State Rice’s hearing with “blood on her hands”, to have organized chant sessions at political campaign speeches, and to have 200 organized protesters unfurl a banner across the stage in front of a former Presidential candidate talking about immigration. But the second people get truly fed up with a congress that is out of control and uninterested in what Americans really think, those on the left merely call them crybabies and whiners. Typical.

      If you’re from the right, put down the goddamn signs and sit on your hands for a minute. Ask smart provoking questions and see if your elected person has the spine to answer you. If you don’t like the answer then don’t start yelling – other people may have questions also and want to hear what is happening.

      So if they choose to ignore the sentiments of your thought provoking question, to dismiss you and offer a talking point, you should shut up and let others ask questions. How exactly is that going to get any answers Ray?

      There are parts of your argument that I agree with. I would like to see a more civil discourse. I would really like to see the media operate honestly and point out that the tactics they decry the right for using in some cases now has been an effective tool for the left for a very long time. But for you to simply dismiss the article because it is nothing but whining and crying, intellectually corrupt, and so forth says to me that you are missing the point, and further simply looking to find a way to poke holes in areas that don’t matter rather than admit that the article was dead accurate in terms of laying out the hypocrisy of the left and the MSM.

  5. To All:

    There is a failure to recognize that many “townhall meetings” are really not what you think in terms of traditional “townhall meetings”.

    In this day and age the politicians have become adept at media and public mood control. These meetings are quite often used to “educate the voter” about the politicians, or political party’s, viewpoint. We are to be “educated”, “informed” or otherwise “handled”. There are very few true “listening” sessions held by elected officials anymore.

    When the voters start to figure it out and especially on issues where there is gut level feelings, you get angry outbursts. I have seen this many times over the years in many different venues. The common thread is that the Govt folks at the front are trying to “teach” or “lecture” and not “listen”. This is the type of “outbursts” I have seen so far in most of the “townhall” meetings where video has been shown.

    It does not mean it is good, it just explains how it happens without being the result of a “deliberate” effort to disrupt the meetings.

    I have seen a couple of videos where it looked possible that some of the folks intended to start yelling from the git go in order to inflame the crowd. But in each case the politician had taken public and vocal postions prior to the meetings A) Favoring the Dem plan and B) chastizing organized opposition. This is not a justification but it does explain why some meetings deteriorate faster than others. Again, without Top Down orders to do so.

    I think the whole thing has provided some needed entertainment in an otherwise dull month. I just hope it all goes away by the time the baseball playoffs get near and after the NFL/college football season begins.

    Best Wishes to All
    JAC

    • Hey Jac, Don’t we all just wish this mess would go away! We are Chicago Cubs fans so this time of year actually gets stressful in our house baseball-wise. Trying to remain optimistic that “this is the year”.

      If you do have any ideas on how we can just get rid of Washington, clue me in……..

      • How about a National Referendum to give it back to the States?

        Or, change the meeting place to Death Valley and the meeting time to July and August of each year?

      • PS Kathy:

        I share your pain for the Cubby’s. I was going to stop and watch a game on the way home but the Cubs were away. I wanted to see a game at Wrigley before it is also “modernized”. I’ll be pulling for the Cubs this year as well. We just have to get the last great Jinx in baseball exorcised.

        That is unless they face the Mariners in the series.

        Here’s to a few fun days at the ball park this Aug and Sept.
        JAC

        • We get to Wrigley a few times each year, plus visit “Wrigley North” (the Brewers’ Miller Park). Last week we did a roadtrip to Cincinnati – waved to you PeterB as we bypassed Indy.

    • JAc said: politicians have become adept at media and public mood control. These meetings are quite often used to “educate the voter” about the politicians, or political party’s, viewpoint. We are to be “educated”, “informed” or otherwise “handled”. There are very few true “listening” sessions held by elected officials anymore.
      You got that right….that is why the people are angry…they are not being listened to, just preached at. They are tired of the preaching and they are ready to be heard if they have to shout.

  6. These are changing times ya’ll; ones that will shape the future.

    The ‘silent majority’ or whatever label you want to put on those newly awakened freedom loving Americans that have formed Tea Parties, Coalitions, Groups or another form of organized force are all realtively new at this revolt thing. They are by and large way behind the infinite numbers of ‘left-wing’ groups that have mastered protests and demonstrations. As such they are more prone to infiltration and mob rule mentality. It is just a issue of inexperience.

    No matter how well organized or respectful they are they will be portrayed as crazy, republican right-wing structured or fake. Even if there is a “town-hall” meeting that is passive and respectful coordinated somewhere, it won’t get the coverage justified. Simply because it is not news-worthy.

    Maybe we should organize rally’s around those whom we currently do support and are voting ‘no’ on the healthcare bill, so that we can make our views known. It is most likely that those representatives in your area who are voting know would be helpful in better organizing and getting the coverage from the media. In my neck of the woods it is Representative Mike Rogers.

    Bottom line is that those with whom we disagree are a far more learned protester’s, and have more organized support. That is NOT a reason to stop, just a lesson on how to get better.

    More to come later

    BTW: In response to BF’s post:

    Super idea and one that we all should follow in our own neck of the woods.

    Thanks BR looking forward to Part II

    CM

    • And that is why Barrack Obama will be the best thing that has happened to this country in a very long time. His ram down your throat policies are awakening the sleeping giant…the silent majority, and the polls are indicating his numbers sliding. He has had some unintended consequences pop up as a result of his politics. We can all like him…for different reasons.

      • Amen Terry!!

      • Concerned in Michigan says:

        I agree with USW’s analysis and with this comment.

        While I don’t want to believe it, I wonder if there will be elections in 2010.

        Will the federal gov’t have taken over everything by then? Will the economic collapse be happened or happening? Not holding elections is one way to “stay in power.” I hope that the spirit of the American people will rise up and not let this happen. (Or will this whole thing have blown over and we’ll all breathe a long sigh of relief? )

        • Concerned in Michigan,

          I’ve been thinking the same thing for a some time now. You’re not alone and I don’t think either one of us is crazy. Others may not share that assessment, however!
          😉

  7. Sorry for some of the mis-spellings, been a long couple of weeks.

  8. It is amazing to me that it is the representatives themselves that are the least informed. They go to the town hall meetings wholly unable to articulate their points or answer questionst that are not expected. Not only have the become disconnected from those they claim to represent, but they have gotten soft in their world of scripted Q&A. In the real world, people ask reak questions, and they don’t have to ask a certain way, in a certain order, or pull any punches. Only a person who actually believed in what they were doing and put the work into it could answer the questions that get thrown at them. More importantly, only a person who actually believes in what they are doing and puts the work into it should ever hold office or be placed in such a position of authority that our representatives are in. Many people assume that they are at least intelligent people or are expert at something for them to be where they are. This is no longer true. They have become a ruling class, with no more ability or intelligence than the royal families of old. It is no wonder they run from the meetings. Its embarrasing for them to realize they are so ignorant.

  9. Hello All

    I saw this on Fox, and it looks like Obama is at it again with wanting people to tattle on each other to the White House, about what people are saying about his health care plan.

    Hope all is having a good day.

    Judy

    __________________________________________________________________

    Barack Obama is more than just denouncing those who disagree with him on health insurance reform. He has the White House website targeting individuals. He has asked that fellow Americans turn on fellow Americans and report to a White House email address the names of those who disagree with him. He has not made clear what repercussions await those who get reported.

    The rhetoric by the White House and Democrats on the Hill has become visceral, not just with the usual hollow claims of hate, fear and greed, etc., but also Senator Barbara Boxer’s weird insult that the protestors aren’t sincere because Americans don’t wear nice clothes.

    Politics is rough and tumble, but a President collecting the names of people who disagree with him is downright scary.

    The main objection posited by the President and Congressional Democrats is that people showing up to protest at town hall congressional meetings are not “real people” but shills for lobbyists and other organizations. They coined the cutesy term “astroturf,” meaning not real grass-roots, but fake. That claim is denied by protestors who attend the town hall meetings.

    Mainstream media is supposed to journal events, not shape them. They shouldn’t pick a side. Is that what the media is doing on the issue of Obama v. the protestors? Far from it. Mainstream media has sided with Obama’s against the American people who disagree with him.

    Let’s take a look at a roundup of mainstream media lingo about those who are protesting President Obama’s changes to health insurance.

    NBC holds back nothing in their support for Obama’s position. In an article under the header “News/Politics” they ran this column, which calls the folks speaking at town hall meetings “fake” “angry” and “comical.” That was just the first paragraph. The column later calls them “infamous” “yokels” and “astro-turfing wing-nuts.” Again, this is under the heading “news.”

    MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell has in interesting way of supporting Obama. While not directly questioning the sincerity of protesting Americans as does the President, Mitchell claims they “just don’t know what’s good for them.” Not that Andrea’s an elitist or anything.

    Here is ABC’s Charlie Gibson’s lead-in to a story about the protests at town hall meetings: Members of the House of Representatives are already back in their districts on summer recess, most holding town hall meetings to find out what’s on the voters’ minds, and what they’re hearing is criticism over health care reform. And some of that criticism appears to be orchestrated, causing the White House to push back.

    Note Gibson does not report that the White House thinks the protests are orchestrated. He takes the White House position himself and says it appears so.

    CBS news ran an investigative piece seeking to prove that the website “Operation Embarrass Your Congressman” is secretly a lobbyist website. After receiving 2 emails from the editor confirming he is one lone citizen, CBS reporter Montopoli concluded-that he can’t conclude anything. Had the email come from a lobbyist, would he hold back his conclusion?

    CBS slipped in a little “organized protest” argument in a column about the town hall protests: “The protests have echoes not just of the Tea Parties held around tax day this year, but also of protests during the Florida election recount in 2000…” Echoes of Florida? Funny, that’s the same talking point used by Barbara Boxer in the clip linked above.

    CNN’s Anderson Cooper is a bit sneakier. Here are 1,000 words from him on the topic. It contains interviews with Democrat congressman and party officials and also a Democrat video, combining to call the Protestors “desperate””hostile””mob-type””orchestrated””manufactured” “angry” and “disruptive.” How many interviews does Cooper present with people who actually attended a town hall meeting? Zero. Sure, Anderson – that seems fair. “This…is CNN.”

    The only linked column on the home page of the New York Times was Paul Krugman calling the protestors racists. Number of racist quotes from protestors Krugman used to support that claim? Zero.

    The Washington Post took the CNN route: 1200 words, lots of statements from Democrats about how awful the “organized” protestors are, but not one single interview with a protestor who was there to deny the “organized” allegation.

    Obama v The People is a fair fight. Double-teaming The People by Obama and the media isn’t.

    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

      The whole thing just goes to show that the media and the government are both AGAINST THE PEOPLE and are convinced that “the people” are too stupid to know what is good for themselves.

      Anyone that still thinks this government is “for the people” after this latest episode is dellusional.

      • I don’t think they ever intended to be for the people in the first place. They all played a con game, and the people who voted for them fell for it.

        Judy

  10. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    We get really whopping conspiracy theories from time to time, so I figured I would throw my own pet one in here just to liven things up.

    After the dot.com bubble burst in 1999, and the destablizing effects of 9/11/01, the economy was a big mess.

    In order to foster strong economic growth, the Federal Reserve (Fed) put in place artificially low interest rates, and mainly kept these rates artificially low. The rates are still ridiculously artificially low even today. The government, with the encouragement of the Fed, used home ownership as the new “driver” of the economy. Anyone and everyone was encouraged to buy a home. Home owners were encouraged to take out 2nd mortgages up to 125% of their home’s supposed value. The buyer’s ability to repay was never questioned, and with all of the new action in the housing markets, home prices skyrocketed.

    With the economic engine really humming along (or so it seemed), businesses could expand and pay more. Insurance companies benefitted. More people were joining the workforce and getting health insurance. More people were buying homes that required insurance. People making more money suddenly became interested in life insurance.

    The housing market became so red-hot that people started “flipping” houses. Distressed properties were bought for a song, refurbished, and sold at tremendous profits (often to people getting questionable but highly available mortgages). Certain cable networks started making shows about flipping houses and how much people were making by doing this. Average Joe suddenly thought he could become a “flipper” and make millions!

    By mid-2007 it became obvious to the Fed that this was clearly unsustainable. People were already beginning to default on their adjustable rate mortgages. The writing was on the wall.

    The Fed knew that another major collapse was inevitable, and they also knew that the American People were all in debt up to their eyeballs (and well beyond the eyeballs in most cases) and couldn’t possibly absorb the hit. In short, if a huge collapse occurred, no one had any money to fall back on to help get out of the collapse.

    The Fed needed to find a way (and FAST) to cushion the blow. The Fed warned all of the major banks and insurers ahead of time that the collapse was coming, but they assured everyone that they could orchestrate it so that the biggest of the big would survive, even if it meant some of the not-quite-so-big got absorbed in the process. The Fed obtained assurances from the government that any amount of money necessary would be provided so that total financial collapse would be averted.

    Once everything was set up and in place, in mid-September of 2008, the Fed quietly removed just enough liquidity (about $550 Billion to be precise) from the world money markets to set off just the right amount of financial collapse to suit them. They did this quietly to avert a full-blown panic and instant depression. The mega-banks and insurance giants were placed ON THE VERGE of finacial ruin, and some of the big-boy wannabes that were not quite in league with the big boys basically were ruined.

    The Fed then orchestrated that these wannabes be subsumed by the real big boys. Then the payout began. The stock market, which had been over 14,000 was suddenly around 7000. The big boys were given a ton of monopoly money by the government (because the Fed told the government to do so), and the big boys were told NOT to lend any of the money out (because the average person had no means to repay even if they did get loans of any sort).

    So, how to ressurect the financial system??? Instruct the big banks and big insurance companies to take all of their monopoly money and INVEST IT IN THE DECIMATED STOCK MARKET! This would cause a rapid rise in the price of stocks, and give the illusion of an economic recovery. In addition, it would give MASSIVE profits to the big banks and big insurance companies.

    Any company or individual that still owned stocks would also benefit from this partial recovery in stock prices, which MIGHT just be enough to get the economy going again… if we are lucky.

    So, when the Politicians tell you that the big profits that the mega-banks and insurance companies are making are EVIL, they are ACTUALLY TELLING YOU THE TRUTH! The profits are not evil because these companies are over-charging consumers… the profits are evil precisely because they are completely and totally the result of the Fed and the government completely intervening and giving money to the mega-corporations who agreed to play ball by the rules set forth by the Fed.

    End result, the economy is still well down the crapper, but the banks and insurance companies are making money, and the stock market is rising because of all of the monopoly money that the Fed and the government gave these corporations to “invest”.

    This gives the current administration plenty of ammunition to demonize the insurance companies and push for an overhaul of the healthcare system, because of the “immoral profits” of the insurance companies. Of COURSE the profits are immoral! They are the direct result of the Fed and the government rigging the system! DUH!

    This ends your conspiracy theory of the day 🙂

    • You forgot the end of the story.

      Once the conpirators had tricked the public into investing in the market again they pulled the rug out from under the supports. The banks and insurance companies received the greatest transfer of wealth known to man. The transfer of the remaining wealth of the citizens to the Fed/Corporate controlled financial institutions.

      The citizenry, now being destitute could no longer resist the governments promise of doing what ever is needed to address these injustices. The American public quickly fell in line with supporting a wide range of government provided benefits to ease the pain. The first to be accepted was the National Health Care Plan. The plan run by the Nationalized Insurance Companies, which of course are run by the same people who organized and implemented the conspiracy from the beginning.

      • But Barney said it was all under control. A good way for the Gov’t to own more “private” property as a step towards enslaving working people.

  11. Black Flag says:

    Watching

  12. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    I am not totally sure what the strategy is here… I could understand if it was just Republicans that were coming out agains this healthcare debacle and the left attempting to demonize them and turn them into “illegitimate protesters”, but the statistics show that many “independents” and many not-so-left-leaning Democrats are either against this or certainly not for it until they get more information.

    Doesn’t the left run the risk of alienating a lot of rank-and-file members of the Democrat party by lumping the independents and the Democrats that are against this in with the “astroturfing wing nuts”? Seems like a really bad strategy to me. Maybe they just think the majority of America is finally too stupid to see through these tactics, but if they do really think that the majority of America is too stupid to see through these tactics, they may be in for a rude awakening.

  13. Have you all watched the clip from Glenn Beck with that Hannan (sp?) guy – the elected Brit? BF, I think I’m going to recruit him to move to America and run here……..

    I’ll search for the clip.

  14. “the founder of “The Minutemen” were shouted down at Columbia University. Hundreds of protesters organized by a left wing group shouted down and eventually unfurled a 40 foot banner across the stage when Tom Tancredo visited UNC to discuss health care earlier this year.”

    Is this not the same as a town hall meeting, people were invited to speak, and left wing liberals would not allow them to be heard. I can see them protesting outside, shouting and whatnot. The media was silent then because of their personal bias. Professional ethics mean little or nothing to them.

  15. I heard today, that Obamba is sending out his goons to disrupt these town hall meetings. I also heard that some of these democrat senators are canceling their own town hall meetings for fear of loud outbursts.

    This is really starting to get pathetic when BO sends out his goons to these meetings to disrupt them all. So much for freedom of speech now. I heard it was the ACORN and Union people he is sending out to these places.

    Boy, what leadership we have in this president, isn’t it. I guess he can’t take the heat with all these people more or less protesting his health care plan especially when he has to send his henchmen out to stop them from speaking their minds. Do the word Gestapo ring a bell?

    In all my 57 years, I have never, ever seen any sitting president act this way, ever. I also heard that it is un AMERICAN to attend these town hall meetings. That’s what the likes of Pelosi, Reid, and I think Obama himself are saying, and the rest of his gang.

    • Judy, Did you see the link I [posted last week of the protesters? THe true grass roots republican shouters all had hand made signs….the ready made sign for healthcare we are goons, and democrate plants.

      • Hi Amazed

        I’m not sure really, there are so many links that come up, I can’t keep up with the ones I might have or not.

        BTW, I owe you an apology. We were talking about something I think the other day, and then I ended up talking with BF, got so into it, I just totally forogt to answer you. Please accept my apology.

        Judy

        • Hey no problem….it gets crazy around here sometimes. I didn’t think anything about it. It’s fine. Have a wonderful day.

    • I suspect we’re being set up by Obama and his minons. I wonder what’s going on with the czars? All this health care BS is a great distraction. I wish someone on our side would hack into that blackberry of his. I’d like to know who he’s contacting when no one is watching…..

  16. One more thing here. If you ask me, I think BO, and the rest of his gang are the ones who being un-AMERICAN here.

  17. Hi ya’ll!

    Well I don’t much like all the yelling stuff, it does dteract from any chance on getting an answer, which would be so full of BS, it would probably lead to yelling! You should read some of the BS responses from those I have written, and yes, it deao make me want to yell at them because they are idiots. But, I WON’T. If given the opportunity here in Ohio to ask a question, supported with a legitimate quote directly from Obama himself, I want to see these idiots squirm.

    After they answer, having prepared for their BS answer, gonna lay down some “You are contraticting what the President said, it’s either the president is wrong, or your wrong, which is it?

    Wishfull thinking on my part, because these “town Hall” meetings are useless. They will go back to DC, pretend to argue it, and then shove it down our throats. When they are done with that, the same thing will happen with “cap and trade”.

    Then I think the “poop will hit the fan” and all kinds of fun stuff will happen. Hope ya’ll are ready for that party>

    G!

  18. Black Flag says:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2224104/pagenum/all/#p2

    How Is America Going To End?
    Who’s most likely to secede?

  19. Thought I’d go back a take another look at some video on these protests and such, to try and find a common denominator that would refute or support the Lefts idea that these people who oppose this healthcare issue are sponsored and organized. So I watched several videos. When Pelosi visited Denver, there was much to see that would refute the Left’s lieing BS.

    I turned the sound down and just looked, those who oppossed, had easy to notice homemade signs on posterboard. Those who supported, ALL, carried professionally manufactured signs. I didn’t find this very odd, as the Dems have not told too many truthfull things anyway. This video can be seen on the 912 site. I’ll provide a link in a moment.

    G!

  20. Good evening all

    Thought maybe you people would be interested in this.

    Judy

    _________________________________________________________________
    Obama Should Stop Talking
    Date: 8/10/2009 8:55:52 AM
    Loading…

    by Bryan Fischer

    Last week President Obama declared that those who created the current financial mess have no business talking about how to clean it up. He says they should just put a sock in it and shut up. Said the president, “But I don’t want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don’t mind cleaning up after them, but don’t do a lot of talking.”

    Let’s review the facts, shall we? In March of 2008, while in the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama voted for the $3.1 trillion dollar 2009 budget, with its built-in $400 billion deficit. Then he voted for the $700 billion TARP plan last October that ballooned the deficit to over $1 trillion.

    Then, as president, he engineered the porkapalooza, gargantuan $787 billion stimulus plan, which is now tacked on to the intolerable debt burden our children and grandchildren will have to bear. Then he signed into law another $400 billion spending bill with no indication as to how it’s to be paid for.

    In other words, he either voted for or signed into law every piece of legislation that has dumped us into the financial hole we’re in. He didn’t inherit this financial disaster, he created it.

    The bottom line here is that the president is more responsible than anyone in America for the staggering level of our federal deficit. And he’s trying to make it worse by ramming through a $1 trillion plus government takeover of the entire health care industry.

    So when he says that those who created this mess should keep their mouths shut and get out of the way so responsible adults can step in and clean the place up, he ought to lead by example. If he meant what he said, he should keep his opinions to himself, get out of our way, and let the American people, who know about the health care bill than their own congressmen, make their voices heard at town hall meetings all across the fruited plain.

    Take your own advice, Mr. President, step aside, and let the people who know what they’re doing step in and clean up the mess you helped to create.

  21. I got this an e-mail the other night. Thought it might be of interest for the general discussion.

    One night, probably in 1880, John Swinton, then the preeminent New York journalist, was the guest of honour at a banquet given him by the leaders of his craft. Someone who knew neither the press nor Swinton offered a toast to the independent press.

    Swinton outraged his colleagues by replying:”There is no such thing, at this date of the worlds history in America, as an independent press.

    You know it and I know it.

    There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with.

    Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job: If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.

    “The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread.

    You know it and I know it; and what folly is this toasting an
    independent press?

    We are the tools and vassels of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.”

    (Source: Labor’s Untold Story, by Richard O. Boyer and Herbert Morris, published by United Electrical, Radio & Machine Workers of Amedca, NY, 1955/1979.)
    —-

    • “To the best of my recollection, I must recall on my memory, I cannot remember.” – James R. Hoffa

      Labors come a long way.

  22. D13,

    You’re retired military, right? If so, what do you make of this? Is this just a regular MP MOS or something more worrisome? Most of my friends I’ve spoken to think it doesn’t mean anything.

    http://jobview.monster.com/getjob.aspx?JobID=82289270&brd=1&re=515,14&q=CORRECTIONS&cy=us&lid=316&AVSDM=2009-07-16+09:18:00&pg=1&seq=10&fseo=1&isjs=1&re=1000,

  23. I haven’t seen any evidence of any single national figure or group coordinating the hundreds of local organizations springing up everywhere to protest the health care plan in particular and the excessive spending in general.

    However, I do have evidence of a single national figure coordinating large, nation-wide organizations to violently counter-protest – the President’s own admission, in fact.

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