Upcoming Health Care Reform Discussions

As many of you know I have been working to put together a series of articles about the health care reform we seem to have government ramming down our throat whether we like it or not. It is a tough series to do as there is so much to read and so many different ways I could tackle the subject. As some of the parts to the series I have decided I am going to research as best I can and answer questions about the reform ideas that are out there and what is actually in the bill. To that end, I need a little help from all of you over the next couple of days.

What I would like you all to do is to respond and let me know what you want me to research. What are the questions around this health care reform plan that are important. Some ideas I was thinking about included:

Is the system setting up a single payer system? What is a single payer system? Could a single payer system come as a result of this legislation?

Does the bill contain health care for illegal immigrants?

Does the bill include paying for abortions?

What is the deal with the end of life counseling and the “death panels”?

Will private companies be forced out?

Will we have any choices available under this bill? Can we choose out own doctors and courses of treatment?

Is tort reform the real answer?

These are just a few quick ideas I had as I thought about this today. So fire away! What questions do you want a real and researched answer on in terms of this health care reform? Nothing is off limits so let me know what I need to start researching better for the series. I am planning on starting to present the series next week.


  1. Southern Discomfort says:

    Are illegal aliens excluded from the bill rather than are they included?
    Are Americans being taxed if they decline to carry health insurance?
    Which Americans will be exempt from additional taxes because they cannot afford health insurance and who decides?
    Who determines which services are too expensive to provide?
    Is it true that private insurers cannot offer the same package as government-run (public) options?
    Exactly how is the public option funded? Who will cover the costs of welfare recipients?

  2. Good morning USW.
    I heard something on talk radio yesterday, an orthopedic surgeon from U of M said that “phase one” of the reform was already in place. There were provisions in the stimulus bill that directed the forming of two “health care groups” to oversee the implementation of the reform that was coming whether we wanted it or not. I can’t get the podcast to download tho. If you want to hear it and have time, it’s at http://www.wjr.com on Frank Beckman’s page. I just tried to download it again and it won’t cooperate.
    Keep up the good work and have a great day.

    • Southern Discomfort says:

      Oh my…
      Thanks for the heads up, the link is http://wjr.com/Article.asp?id=1453696&spid=6552. This is outrageous.

      • That was an eye opener. Ray will blame it all on Sarah Palin, Bob will see nothing wrong with Spendulus’ hidden foray into health care as its result is a very UK framework being successfully setup in the dead of night while both will cite that POTUS “had to” for your own good and that of the other knuckle dragging Americans too unsophisticated to comprehend that which is in their own best interest. Now hold your nose and swallow.

        Welcome back to the Commonwealth! You’ll have to add some color to your money now. At least your media bias is almost in line with the current incarnation of the BBC. Now about those all too straight and white teeth…

        Once again let me remind everyone here, I’m one of those nutters who is cool with Canada’s Uni-health and I can afford to be. I’m also cool with an American version of Uni-health as long as I can still buy myself some stellar American free market doctoring whenever I really need it. Totally self serving here and admittedly so. What I can’t stand to see however is POTUS screwing up my ability to located/find/scrounge up a stellar doctor to fix me up when my own system is going to fail me. While he says “he won’t” and his supporters say “he won’t” his actual legislation’s context says “but we can if we want to”.

        The left is very fond of saying “you don’t need a gun if your intent is to not use it”. Well POTUS? Why do you need the gun?

        • To be honest I dont really care what health care the Americans get, I am fascinated by all the media about it though. Having watched some of the republicans on the news it does make me laugh at some of the statements about the Canadian and UK health systems. I have lived in all three countries and having experienced the apparently much superior US system I wont be going back for a second round.

          • I can cite several dozen residents here in a community of mere thousands who are thankful that their trip to the Mayo Clinic and other specialist hospitals in America saved their lives where our own system was “doubtful” as the the results of continuing treatment. I’m a fan of my system yet I also will not lie about the at times “lethal” flaws in it.

            For my country a free market option above our own basic coverage would best serve Canadians and we’re realizing that daily.

          • So Bob, if you develop prostrate cancer, with the UK’s survival rate of 52%, compared to the US rate of over 90%, you like your odds there?

            That being connected to a favorite body part, I would have to assign it a higher value, but by all means, stay there and good luck with all your issues.

            • http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-622893_ITM

              Meh, I have known a few guys with colon cancer and they were treated shortly after the diagnoses. Your insurance policies have manditory physicals so you have better detection so you spot it earlier. Whats the survival rate of those unable to afford treatment?

              • Black Flag says:

                It will be very high, because no one, including the government will be able to afford to pay.

              • Bob, this may be what you want to hear.

                If the U.S. had performed as well as the top three countries out of the19 industrialized countries in the study there would have been 101,000 fewer deaths in the U.S. per year by the end of the study period.


                As for myself, I don’t buy it. If a bum living on the street destroys his liver, they will not give him a replacement, unless he can convince the doctors he will not destroy the new one. He has made a choice to abuse alcohol, and live on the street. Our shelters are NEVER full, but they are family oriented, and do not admit anyone who is intoxicated. So when they freeze to death during the winter, could we, should we prevent their deaths, or could they pass up that bottle for a few hours?

              • Well you dont have to worry about any sort of health care reform happening anyway. The insurance companies have far too many people in their pockets for any change to happen, if there is any change it will be to benefit them. If you are happy with health care now you dont have to worry much.

              • Most everyone forgets. Even the poorest of the poor get treatment. In the US, it is law. Walk into any emergency room off the street and you are not refused treatment. This is always forgotten.All life saving and stabilization treatment MUST be given….even privately owned hospitals cannot refuse treatment. If, in the course of treatment, any surgery that is required will be performed…including colon or prostate surgery.

              • Who pays for that D13? What is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the US?

              • Piss poor planning is the biggest cause of bankruptcy, Bob. How many of those who went bankrupt had plasma Tv, a BMW and XBox?

                You folks do love to spout stats that are skewed in every way possible.

      • Willo, Southern,

        Thanks, a great find all should give a listen to. I knew the stimulus funded the first part of “health care reform”, but did not think out its meaning.

  3. Southern Discomfort says:

    Is it true that the government will have direct access to our bank accounts?

    • Black Flag says:

      They already have it.

      The question really is, what excuse do they need to take your money?

  4. USW;

    Will the effort be managed at the state level since Health insurance is now state managed?

    How will businesses that already offer benefits to it’s employee’s be affected?

    What if you are a small privately owned business of only 5 or less people?

    How will those who have a plan like Public teachers be affected; will those benefits be taxed as income?

    Do people have the option to just say no to any health coverage or will some form of insurance be mandated?

    What pork is tied to this that has nothing to do with health care?

    How much is it really going to cost the American tax payer?

    Does income level dictate the level of plan and/or taxes each citizen will pay out?

    Does Congress have the Constitutional right to even propose such an act?


    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

      The only question actually worth asking out to the whole bunch so far has been,

      “Does Congress have the Constitutional right to even propose such an act?”

      I think most of us would agree that the answer to that question is clearly and resoundingly “NO!”, so at that point all other questions become useless as far as what would be contained in such a program.

      The only question that then becomes of use to us is, “If the Congress does not possess the Constitutional right to even propose such an act, yet it has proposed such an act and will likely pass such an act, and this act will likely be signed into law by our President, and, if necessary be upheld by our Supreme Court, what recourse do we actually have?”

      Hint: If you answered somewhere between (or including) “precious little” or “none” you get a cookie.

      PS I would like to invite everyone back over to the open mic page. We never close over there even when USW posts new stuff… we just keep going on the open mic. when we have time! 🙂

      • Problem is Peter, Congress really doesn’t care if your answer is true or not. So the other questions will have to be answered with the understanding that if Congress operated within the Constitution, we wouldn’t have had to ask them in the first place.

  5. My favourite bit of press to come out of America about the health care issue:

    How House Bill Runs Over Grandma

    By INVESTOR’S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 31, 2009 4:20 PM PT

    Rationing: In the recesses of the House health care “reform” bill is a provision for end-of-life counseling for seniors. Don’t worry, granny, they’re from the government and they’re here to help.

    IBD Exclusive Series: Government-Run Healthcare: A Prescription For Failure

    At a town hall meeting at AARP headquarters in Washington, D.C., President Obama was asked by a woman from North Carolina if it was true “that everyone that’s Medicare age will be visited and told they have to decide how they wish to die.”

    At first, the president joked that not enough government workers existed to ask the elderly how they wanted to die. The idea, he said, was to encourage the use of living wills and that critics were misrepresenting the intent of the “end of life” counseling provided for in the House bill. He did not say, “No, they wouldn’t be contacted.”

    This administration, pledging to cut medical costs and for which “cost-effectiveness” is a new mantra, knows that a quarter of Medicare spending is made in a patient’s final year of life. Certainly the British were aware when they nationalized their medical system.

    The controlling of medical costs in countries such as Britain through rationing, and the health consequences thereof are legendary. The stories of people dying on a waiting list or being denied altogether read like a horror movie script.

    The U.K.’s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) basically figures out who deserves treatment by using a cost-utility analysis based on the “quality adjusted life year.”

    One year in perfect health gets you one point. Deductions are taken for blindness, for being in a wheelchair and so on.

    The more points you have, the more your life is considered worth saving, and the likelier you are to get care.

    People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

    The British are praised for spending half as much per capita on medical care. How they do it is another matter. The NICE people say that Britain cannot afford to spend $20,000 to extend a life by six months. So if care will cost $1 more, you get to curl up in a corner and die.

    In March, NICE ruled against the use of two drugs, Lapatinib and Sutent, that prolong the life of those with certain forms of breast and stomach cancer.

    The British have succeeded in putting a price tag on human life, as we are about to.

    Can’t happen here, you say? “One troubling provision of the House bill,” writes Betsy McCaughey in the New York Post, “compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care (House bill, Pages 425-430).”

    One of the Obama administration’s top medical care advisers is Oxford- and Harvard-educated bioethicist Ezekiel Emanuel. Yes, he’s the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and has the ear of his brother and the president.

    “Calls for changing physician training and culture are perennial and usually ignored,” he wrote last June in the Journal of the American Medical Association. “However, the progression in end-of-life care mentality from ‘do everything’ to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible.”

    Emanuel sees a problem in the Hippocratic Oath doctors take to first do no harm, compelling them “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others,” thereby avoiding the inevitable move toward “socially sustainable, cost-effective care.”

    During the June 24 ABC infomercial on health care broadcast from the White House, Obama confessed that if “it’s my family member, if it’s my wife, if it’s my children, if it’s my grandmother, I always want them to get the very best care.”

    Not, apparently, if it’s your grandmother.

  6. Ray Hawkins says:

    Does Healthcare reform answer some of the Michael Moore-type questions? I recall a segment from Sicko (its been a while since I fell asleep to it) wherein people were compensated based on the number of requests for services/payment they could turn down – will things like that still exist?

    Does it ‘really’ cover everything? Case in point – my wife had a C-section when our son was born. Because of this she had to stay in the hospital for three days – each day the Pediatrician came in to check on the baby (he initially had a heart murmur). As the bills have poured in (what a GD mess) I found one I questioned and we called – turns out her company, in its agreement with the insurance company, would not agree to allow the plan to cover 2 of the 3 Pediatrician visits while we were in the hospital. They only cover one. WTF? Even her insurance company was shocked and said it is very rare for a company to decline items such as that from the plan. No where in the literature for the plan does it say this is not covered. Even had I known that I still would have insisted on the 2nd and 3rd visits. So I guess my question is this – will crap this be eliminated? There is no reason I should have to worry with being nickel and dimed to death because a multitude of services are excluded to save a buck up front.

    • Ray:

      I can answer that one based on my personal experience with Health Insurance provided by and run by the Federal Govt.

      Our Insurance (Blue cross/blue shield) included provisions for speech therapy.

      Our son needed therapy as he was not speaking at age 2.

      We checked to make sure it was covered under the policy.

      They said yes.

      We started therapy.

      After about a year they declared no more payment for therapy.

      The therapists were having problems with him because of behavior (autism).

      So the company determined that therapy was not causing improvement but just maintaining gains made. The policy distinquised between therapy and maintenance, the latter was not covered.

      We got doctors and therapists to write letters explaining they had made an “illogical” connection. Behavior was separate from speech. If behavior was addressed then further gains in speech would be made. And at the time of the disputed therapy gains were being made.

      They said NO.

      Now here is the real rub. They said NO to reimbursing us for therapy that had already been done but during which the behavior had started to escalate. Thereapy done during the period of Yes and before they issued the NO.

      Per the terms of the Govt program we appealed to the Director of the Office of Personell Management.
      The Director decided that to be “fair” she would just split the bill down the middle for past therapy and halt all future therapy.

      We got stuck for $4000 of therapy conducted and that had been authorized.

      The Post Script to this is that the following year the company rewrote that provision of the policy to exclude any speech therapy that was not linked directly to an “accident” or “physical birth defect”.

      And the govt signed off on the new policy provisions.

      Oh, I almost forgot. This was during the Clinton administration.

      I absolutely know from experience that having the Govt run the insurance program or programs will NOT make anything better. It will be worse for this one reason.

      If we had been covered privately we could have dragged the SOB’s to court. Doctors and therapists on our side, bean counters on theirs. Any doubt who would win?

      But because it was a Federal Govt administered program we had to give up our right to sue. Govt controlled policies require arbitration and the assigned “arbitrator” is the govt. The same entity that is on the hook for the cost of the coverage is thus empowered to decide if the coverage is appropriate.

      Hope your day goes wonderfully

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        Well – you didn’t make my day any better. In my case it was private insurance – and yes – taking people to Court costs money. The giant rub will always be how to have adequate controls in the system so it is effective, transparent and provides care but isn’t wide open to abuse. In your case you were screwed by the government, in my case we were screwed by private industry. Not sure we say one is worse than the other (my bill definitely lower than yours – but I have stick of these damn things at home I haven’t even opened yet), or exclude one or all from a solution.

        • I truly believe Ray that until we stop trying to use govt to create “adequate controls” we will never really solve the problem.

          At a minimum health insurance should be a deduction from our Adjusted Gross Income. Subject to no taxation, federal or state or local. Same holds for all medical expenses and contributions to a Health Savings Account.

          All must be deducted as part of calculating Adj. Gross Income.

          No more employer provided plans, unless that is your choice.

          Everyone gets to pick and structure what they want. Competition increases among the insurance companies because pretty quick most of us will realize it is cheaper to pay the doctor bills directly.

          Oh yes, we eliminate medicare and medicaid and all the add on to Soc Sec as well. This releases about 6% of current payroll to the employees to help cover medical costs.

          I believe the key to cutting costs is to eliminate insurance payments from the covering the day to day and normal costs, such as your C-section. Insurance, whether private or govt controlled, which all insurance is govt controlled in reality, creates an ever increasing spiral in costs. Go to a pay as go using cash and we will see costs drop like a rock.

          • Back in 87 I had to have back surgery. At the time I worked for a company that was self-insured (meaning the bills for it’s employees were administered by Aethna, but paid by my employer).

            Once the surgery was complete the surgeon stopped in to check on me. About half way through the conversation he suggested that I pay his charges directly to him, and if I did so I could pay 20% less than what the hospital bill stated. He in turn would split the difference once I was reinburst for his cost. I looked at him straight faced and said “Doc that is fraud, and besides the company I work for pays the bill, so I would be stealing from my employer”. He kind of grinned and said “Not really, it’s just circumventing the process…saves everybody time and paperwork”.

            I told him we would stick to the program as it was spelled out and he left it at that.

            As I was checking out I asked for a copy of all the charges just to make sure he hadn’t ‘re-adjusted’, and as I looked over the bill I found quite a few interesting notation:

            $4.00 for a box of kleenex and I allegially used 4 (I didn’t use any)

            Therapy consultation $300.00 – Nobody consulted me

            Water bottle – $8.00 – but I didn’t get to keep it.

            This list went on and had some interesting items, but my point is that a great deal of Health care costs are kind of like the $400 hammers sold to the government and the $600 toilet seats at NASA.

            BTW: I did notify the insurance administrator at my employer about the conversation and ‘odd’ charges, but I am not sure she did anything about any of it.

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            JAC – do we work under the assumption then I guess that Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security are indeed Socialist programs and should be eliminated? (I think that is what you are saying).

            What of the people that rely on those programs? What do I tell Grandpa or the single Mom with no job and 3 three kids and no Dad? Tough shit?

            Why do I see so many conservatives say, “yeah, okay, leave Medicare and Medicaid alone” (which are purely Socialist programs, even I get that), yet they will not support a program that covers every man, woman and child? I don’t get it man.

    • 3 days using up a hospital bed for a C-Section? You’re kidding me. Try less than 24 hours here and if no complication shows… its bye bye time.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        Doctor’s orders – plus she lost a significant amount of blood. I understand three days is typical for a C-section but I have nothing to prove that.

        • They get you out the door here quick as humanly possible and in many cases refuse to admit a patient when they can meet the checklist for homecare.

        • 1st C almost 26 years ago: 5 days
          2nd C 23 years ago: 4 days
          3rd C 15 years ago: 3 days

      • Yep, 3 days for a C-section, I know, because I had 2 of them. But I was also was what they call a high risk factor because of complications I had with both pregencies.

        I believe we had Blue Cross/Blue Shield at the time, and I’m pretty sure they covered everything, including the doctors visits.

        I had to go to a high risk specialist because of all the problems I had, plus there was my age that didn’t help matters either. I had trouble carrying after the 4th to 5th months, and had to have my cervix stitched so I could carry to term. Lost one in the 4th, and one on the 5th because of my problem.

        My oldest was 2 weeks early on top of that, 12 hours labor, then ended up with a C-section. He was too big for me to pass. My youngest was 3 weeks early because he was going into stress, so another C-section. Almost lost him in the 8th month.

        So, yes, 3 days in the hospital for a C-section wasn’t uncommon then. But, I’m talking about 27 years ago for my oldest, and almost 24 for my youngest.

      • I'm learning! says:

        In the “are you kidding” theme – my friend in Japan just had a baby. Natural childbirth – 6 day stay in the hospital is standard. That would drive me insane! But he said the whole thing cost them about $7 – $8,000. That’s what – maybe a couple of days if you are lucky over here?

      • Had an interesting talk with a legal immigrant from Canada. I asked her thoughts on healthcare reform, US compared to Canadian. She said she moved because of having to pay 55% income taxes, she just could not afford to live like that. She has insurance here in the US, and is worried where she will be in a few years, if she will have to find some other place to live.

        • * 15% on the first $40,726 of taxable income, +
          * 22% on the next $40,726 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $40,726 and $81,452), +
          * 26% on the next $44,812 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $81,452 and $126,264), +
          * 29% of taxable income over $126,264.

          Nova Scotia 8.79% on the first $29,590 of taxable income, +
          14.95% on the next $29,590, +
          16.67% on the next $33,820 +
          17.5% on the amount over $93,000


          29% of taxable income over $126,264.
          17.5% on the amount over $93,000
          46.5%, don’t know why she said 55%

        • Across the pond.

          Income tax forms the bulk of revenues collected by the government. Each person has an income tax personal allowance, and income up to this amount in each tax year is free of tax for everyone. For 2009-10 the tax allowance for under 65s is £6,475.[2].

          Above this amount there are a number of tax bands — each taxed at a different rate:[2]
          Rate (09-10) Dividend Income Savings Income Other Income (inc employment) Band (above any personal allowance)
          Lower rate N/A 10% N/A £0 – £2440
          applies only if total income falls in this band
          Basic rate 10% 20% 20% £0 – £37,400
          Higher rate 32.5% 40% 40% over £37,400

          This table reflects the removal of the 10% starting rate from April 2008, which also saw the 22% income tax rate drop to 20%. Alistair Darling announced in the 2009 budget (22 April 2009) that, from April 2010 there would be a new 50% income tax rate for those earning more than £150,000.

          The second largest source of government revenues is National Insurance contributions (NIC)
          National Insurance is levied at 11% (that is, 11p in the £),
          Employers pay an additional 12.8%

          The third largest source of government revenues is value added tax (VAT), charged at the standard rate of 17.5% (temporarily cut to 15% between December 2008 and December 2009) on supplies of goods and services. It is therefore a tax on consumer expenditure. A document posted on the Parliament website on November 25 2008 suggested that the government was planning a higher 18.5% VAT after this time elapsed, but the Treasury has said this was “an option that was considered and rejected.

          A little help with the math please.

          11% = 51% plus 17.5% on most purchases.


  7. What is going to happen to the medical profession if this bill passes? Will doctors be forced to leave the medical profession and find another line of work because the government will take control over them?

    • Yup all your doctors are going to end up on the checkouts at Walmart.

      • Don’t know if you’re serious or kidding here. I ask that because my son is pre-med right now, and when he does go into medical school, I’m just wondering how this will affect him. I know he has at least 8 years of schooling, but anything can happen in that time.

        This fall, he is going for his EMT training to get his certificate in the hopes of getting some training in ER, or riding along with paramedics.

        • Southern Discomfort says:

          I caught a town hall in TX today. There were many physicians in the crowd, the OB GYN said she would eventually quit and be like the rest of the welfare crowd who sit home and watch TV while others pave (pay) the way for everyone else.

    • Black Flag says:

      Initially, they will work like dogs because they care.

      Then, they will collapse because they are only human.

      Then, they will refuse to be slaves, and stop working at all.

      • I don’t know BF, he’s pretty determined to make this goal, and he’s well aware of the hours you have to keep. He said, if he can stay awake for 3 or 4 days while being in the Marines, then he can stay awake 3 or 4 days while being a doctor. Isn’t that all part of being a doctor? I know, that there is a difference between the two, but you still have to make important decisions.

        • I certainly hope not, I would not want to be seen by a doctor who has had very little sleep in 3-4 days.

          • I was talking about his residency, sorry I wasn’t more explicit there, my apologies. But, just how do you know if there isn’t any out there that goes on very little sleep?

            • Over here they have started enacting an EU law saying junior doctors are not allowed to work more than 48 hours a week. It has caused a bit of controversy with people saying it will cause staffing shortages. One of my friends has just graduated and is in her first year of residency, she said she at some points due to overlapping shifts been awake and working for 20 hours. Again I do not want a doctor injecting pain killers into me who has been awake for that long.

              • I see your point there Bob, and I don’t blame you. That’s the last thing that is needed, the wrong kind of injection or medication. It’s happened too many times already.

                But it has also happened with surgeries too. Doctors doing the wrong kind of surgery,, or perhaps removing the wrong limb, when it should have been the other one, or how about doing un-necessary surgery as well.

                So, it’s not just getting the wrong injection, or medication, it’s other things as well.

  8. Is health insurance only offered on a state by state basis and, if so, would allowing companies to operate on a national level increase options and reduce costs?

  9. My understanding is the main thing this will do is require every American to have insurance. My question is just where/how is that reform?

    And to nit pick, Obama claims there are 47 million un-insured Americans, but 11 million of them are Illegal immigrants.

    The “reform” does not provide for illegal aliens, so he is making a false statement either with 47 should be 36, or he is granting them legal status.

    There is a lot in there about oversight panels being set up. Knowing how the government works, today they “advise”, in five years, they will issue guidelines that will control what treatments will be paid for.

    Yesterday’s post,
    Kathy said
    August 12, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    One source, one article, but interesting.


    Life of Illusion said

    Other areas of waste identified in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report included up to $493 billion related to risky behavior such as smoking, obesity and alcohol abuse,

    Close to half the medical expenses can be saved by changes in lifestyle choices.
    Alcoholism will no longer be a “disease”, and it, along with smoking and overeating. What authority will these “panels” have? Will we have a “Czar” that decides what and how much we eat and drink? This may be the answer to how to pay for all this, more taxes on tobacco, alcohol and fast food, until we cannot afford this behavior. Only the Trumps and Rosie O’Donal’s will be able to eat at McDonalds.

    Obama & Franks favor single payer, which this plan DOES NOT create. This does eliminate private insurance, and in five years, forces all to follow the Gov. plan, or be a part of that plan.

    Is this not just a five or ten year plan for single payer?

  10. If this bill passes, I don’t think it should cover the illegals at all. After all, aren’t they already getting freebies now? Seems to me that they are already getting everything handed to them, while the rest of has to work and pay for it. Correct me if I’m wrong there.

  11. USW:

    My wants are much different. As I asked so long ago….What is the Real problem?

    What are the Real Costs of providing medical care?

    Why are the costs rising at such a fast rate?

    These are just a couple and they require Doctors to weigh in here and share their cost structure and problems with revenue streams under various programs (pvt ins, medicare, medicaid).


    I am certain the current legislation proposed does not address the real problems because it is emotionaly and politically based. So I have no need to chase the rabbit.

    The Best to You
    Live Free my Friend

  12. Black Flag says:

    One eye open

  13. v. Holland says:

    If this passes is there anyway to ever get rid of it? Say if the Republicans get controlling power in Congress in 2010 can they make this go away?

  14. Black Flag says:

    v. Holland

    If this passes is there anyway to ever get rid of it? Say if the Republicans get controlling power in Congress in 2010 can they make this go away

    Name one piece of legislation that has been repealed in the last 40 years.

  15. Black Flag says:

    Interesting perspective….

    [The fur ball] has caught the Democrats off guard.

    What did it?

    Not the money.

    Voters ignore money.

    It’s the fear of getting life-support pulled by a bureaucrat. It’s the fear of rationing.

    That is a legitimate fear.
    But the fight is not over money.

    The public doesn’t respond to the threat of deficits any longer.

    • v. Holland says:

      I think there are plenty of people who were against it from the very beginning who cared about the money and realized the other problems that would come with it-but the people who were just looking at this as a humanitarian measure have to see it in writing-to see all the consequences of actually having this bill-to bust that dream balloon and SEE reality and some people never will see.

  16. Black Flag says:


    With all the money given to banks, why is the recession still going on?

    Where did that money go?

    See the graph above.

  17. Black Flag says:

    Click to access empsit.pdf

    Labor stats.

    Thought the ‘advertised’ rate is merely 9.4% unemployed, if you add up the discouraged unemployed, those that have stopped looking, the chronic under-employed, etc. the rate is actually 24%.

    Do not lose your job.

  18. Black Flag says:

    Recession will be the worst in modern history, Bank of England confirms

    Leave it to the Brits to speak bluntly.


  19. Black Flag says:


    You know times are tough when porn actresses are taking pay cuts.

  20. I'm learning! says:

    I watched something on Fox once about a Dr. that wanted to experiment with his practice. He would charge his patients a flat rate of something like $80 per month and provide all of their health care services for that fee. No insurance, no medicare/medicade, etc, no deductables and co-payments. He was sure he would be profitable in this venture. But the government won’t let him do it because they claimed he was running his own insurance company. While I don’t know all the details behind his plan, it sounded interesting!

    • Black Flag says:

      Government monopolies hate competition.

    • Saw that myself, they forced him to stop or be taken to criminal court.

      • There ya go, exactly what I was talking about before. Government telling a doctor what to do. They have no right telling doctors how to run their business.

        • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

          Judy S.

          That is the problem with government… SURE it has NO RIGHT to be telling doctors how to run their practices, yet demonstrably that is exactly what it DOES. What recourse did the doctor (or any of us) have against it?

          Zip, zero, the big goose egg!

          • And yet, we can’t say jack-shit to the government on how they should run their business. To bad we can’t take them to criminal court for the way they are running/ruining this country.

          • All to often, it doesn’t need the right, because it has the power. And you do not have the power to make them account for themselves.

          • On April 3, 2002, Kay Leibrand surrendered to the police. She was fingerprinted. They took her mug shots. The 61-year old grandmother and software engineer was told that she had broken the law. She might go to jail or perhaps she would get off with just a fine. On May 30, 2002, she was arraigned. Her crime was allowing street-side xylosma bushes to grow more than two feet high.


            • OMG, You have got to be kidding me. They didn’t and don’t have anything better to do, than go around and check peoples hedges. But then, that’s all it took was for one person to complain. Give me a break.

  21. esomhillgazette says:

    At the risk of having some liberal tell me I’m just listening to the rhetoric of the right, Or that I’m stating as facts things that I only THINK are true, let me say this.

    You are free to think as you want. I, on the other hand simply believe what I see with my own eyes. Not because Fox or Glenn Beck said it. Not because Rush says so.

    I see a man stand up on stage and declare he wants socialized medicine, a single payer plan, a public plan. Then, a few months later, when he sees this plan of his becoming unpopular. He sees audiences at town hall meetings becoming enraged at this so called “Health Choices Act” and starts to panic, calling US “astroturf”.

    And then begins saying that he’s not for all those things he said he wanted just a few short months ago. He stands in a carefully cast town hall meeting and makes fun of us. Says we’re thinking he wants to “off Grandma”, and laughs. His ACORN and SEIU thugs start showing up at other town halls and pushing and beating on folks. They use bullhorns to drown out all dissention and opposing views.

    And then to top this off, other bills and side agendas are going through without opposition because it’s hard to focus on just ONE thing. He appoints about 50 czars who are accoutable to no one but him for everything from cars to white toilet paper.

    All of this I see with MY OWN DAMN EYES! Proof? How much proof do I need? My eyes ain’t never lied to me before. Unlike every other politician I’ve ever known.

    If it was an article, well then I could see the point that maybe somebody’s just biased. But a Video? Hmmmm… Sure looked like him! Sounds like him too! And those posters earlier that had his name on them. And now that big ass Presidential seal on the podium. Hmmmm….

    Aw shoot! I’m just an ignurnt ol’ Georgia hick. That conservative right almost had me with all them doctored videos with the made up faces and voices, man, them wuz some good sets too! Maybe I need to go back and listen to the left. Everbody knows ye can’t trust ’em damn righties right? They make you think yore seein’ thangs! I got caught up in all that rhetoric. I ain’t got no proof except my eyeballs and I obviously can’t rust them. Right?

    • Southern Discomfort says:

      Your are very keen indeed.

      Your eyesight can actually help your nose. Rats are crawling all over Washington. C-SPAN and youtube videos filmed on the floor of congress and shared by your representatives are very real my friend and speak volumes. What type of rhetoric can overwash that?

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      Esom – understand also that if I am to have an open mind and be willing to change or adjust my position I will from time to time ask you to support a particular statement so I can go check it for myself, run it through my own filters and see if I do need to adjust how I think or feel. Just because you “heard” something does not make it true – and its worse if you pass it off to others as fact. It isn’t that I do not trust you, but my inherent skepticism says “well, let me see for myself” – just remember – there is a reason that increasingly LE and prosecutors do not rely on eye-witness testimony – it is often wrong.

  22. Black Flag says:


    ‘Secret cargo’ fear over missing ship

    “I’m sure it cannot be drugs or illegal criminal cargo. I think it is something much more expensive and dangerous.

    “It seems some third party didn’t want this transit to be fulfilled so they made this situation highly sophisticated and very complicated.”

    Russia’s navy fleet and two nuclear submarines have been scrambled as efforts intensified to locate the Maltese-flagged Arctic Sea and its 15-strong Russian crew

  23. Black Flag says:

    Writing in The State and Revolution in 1917, Vladimir Lenin summed up the economic aim of socialism as follows: “To organize the whole economy on the lines of the postal service….”

    Imagine, this is exactly what Obama wants to do – in his own words – with health care.

    • Black Flag says:


      “[Private enterprises] do it all the time.

      If you think about it, UPS and Fed-Ex are doing just fine. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems…. there is nothing inevitable about this somehow destroying the private marketplace.

      As long as it is not set up where the government is being subsidized by the taxpayers so that even if they are providing a good deal, we keep having to pony up more and more money.”

      There is no hope for Govt. Health Care to survive economically – no matter which nation invokes it.

      If this passes, prepare for the worse.

  24. Black Flag says:


    How to protect yourself as a consumer when you’re in the hospital


    I can speak from experience.

    When my father-in-law was dying, my little girl, my wife, and I camped out in his hospital room, much to the dismay of the hospital staff.

    We tended to him 24 hours a day, and if we hadn’t, his passing would have been utterly dreadful for him.

    I am (as you may imagine) an incredibly demanding fellow. I was a huge pain in their necks for the 9 days I was there.

    They were poisoning him with morphine, giving him 10x the dose prescribed. Had I not forced my way past the nurse (ignoring her threats about calling ‘security’) and seized his chart and the morphine and pointed out it to her their mistake -to her shock, of course- he would have perished horribly by a morphine overdose.

    Of course, they treated us like dirt – until one day the President and all the Executive of the Hospital came down to visit my father-in-law.

    They had learned that my father-in-law was to be knighted for his work on behalf of the extremely poor children worldwide, but unfortunately, he would not survive long enough to attend his ceremony. It had been decided not to wait and posthumously knight him, but to bring it to him on his death bed.

    Of course, after that the staff treated him knightly. Too bad they didn’t treat just like a human being (before or after).

    He died peacefully, with his little granddaughter sleeping in his arms, with him being held the arms of his daughter.

    • I’m so sorry BF, but at least he did have his family with him, and he was holding his little granddaughter. I’m sure he’s looking down watching over all of you.

      My condolences to you and your wife.


    • Flag,

      I like how you dealt with all that, went thru some issues as my grandfather
      neared the end. About the morphine, it is a common way to allow someone a painless death. Too much morphine, you go to sleep, breathing is suppressed,
      you die of natural causes. Some doctors will do terminal patients a favor, and allow them to self-regulate their pain.

  25. I'm learning! says:

    Isn’t medical insurance companies regulated state by state as to where they can sell their plans? I can buy car insurance from anyone I want. Why can’t I buy medical insurance from anyone I want? How different would this problem be if we could buy from any company willing to sell to us?

    • Yes, and there is where the problem starts, government interference with free market, then government tries to “fix” what their meddling has caused.

      You will also here the government requires you to have auto insurance to drive, so why can’t they require you to have medical insurance?

      Your state issues you a license to drive.

      When will the state issue a “life” license, granting you permission to live?
      They are going to fine you if you don’t have health insurance. If you refuse to pay, will they imprison you?

      • I'm learning! says:

        All the taxes in my state, a life license is probably coming soon. I fear for our kids! Really, having children and grandchildren should be something that is exciting and causes hope for the future. I am truly scared for them! VLDG (or VDLG – I forget which) needs to get in place soon!

    • Learning, this is my question as well. Just like we buy auto and home insurance. We choose those options that apply to us. I don’t know much about the insurance industry, but why did medical insurance go down a different path than the others?

  26. Black Flag says:

    The stage has been set for the Obama administration to announce another major escalation of the war in Afghanistan, amid warnings that the Taliban insurgency has to be stemmed over the next 12 to 18 months to avoid the risk of a humiliating US defeat.

    So much for the ending of the wars….

  27. Black Flag says:

    Aug. 13 (Bloomberg) — Australia’s Senate rejected the government’s climate-change legislation, forcing Prime Minister Kevin Rudd to amend the bill or call an early election.

    Sanity, but barely, grasps Australia.

    But no worries. The Eco-nut PM is going to try again…

  28. Hi Ya’ll!

    I’ve been listening and asking questions of our medical staff where I work. All American doctors I talked too would stay on and see what happens, and just over half think they will be put out of business within the first five years.

    The non-American doctors were quite different, 7 out of 10 (that I spoke with) said they would go back to their native land if they are dictated what they are paid. The other 3 answered the same as American doctors.

    During Obama’s speech to the AARP, he stated “we want to tell you and your doctor what the best course of action is, to deal with your ailment”. This was just a few short weeks ago.

    Militias are regrouping. They have no idea how they are underestimating this. Small communities are engaging in non-formal discussions on defending themselves. These will grow into formal meetings in the near future. It’s also happening in neighborhoods, like mine, We all know who is armed and who is not (yet). A small group of us have already set up some plans, communications, ect. to deal with any issues, but the concensus is to hold out for awhile and skip to our country locations, if the need arises.

    In a absolute collapse, the cities will go down first, and whoever is left will have to migrate away just to eat, they won’t survive, if they don’t get out very early. If the military takes over the cities, noone will leave.

    Just some food for thought.


  29. I can’t quite understand something here, and maybe one of you can explain it to me. You all remember Dr. Kevorkian, and how he helped those who wanted to, how do I put this,end their lives because they might have a terminal illness? And how he went to prison for what he was doing? My question is, then why with this new health plan of Bimbo’s is it alright if you want to end your life? What’s the difference here, I don’t see any. Are they not talking about getting counseling for those who want to end it? Especially to the seniors? Sounds to me like he wants to get rid of the seniors, so they don’t have to pay them their social security checks, or be able to get medicaid and medicare. Am I wrong here?


    • I'm learning! says:

      OK, I have wondered that myself. Sounds morbid but I have really wondered!

      • I’m guessing that maybe Bimbo’s way is legal, and Kevorkian’s wasn’t. But, either way, that should be left up to the person and family, not for the government to decide.

        If I knew I had only a short time to live, I don’t think I could do it, I’ve got this fear of dying for some reason, and I don’t know why, but, to take my own life wouldn’t help me any either.

    • Southern Discomfort says:

      I think you have made a great point. I think that Kevorkian’s problem was that he wanted to help those who chose their solution.

      This would be in complete contrast to the omnipotent government who believes they know what is best for the entire country. We only want to help those who will not do or choose for themselves.

      • Like what, forcing them into it whether they want it or not? My mom will be 87 this Sunday, and takes Advair because of her emphysema, so what I’m getting out of this, is that they won’t allow her to have it anymore, and she can just roll over and die because according to them, she’s going to die anyway. Or just take her to counseling and then she can decide if she wants to live anymore or not. Ain’t gonna happen, she has Dementia, and can’t make a rash decision for herself, we have to make it for her. And that’s one I will not make. She can go in her sleep, and hopefully peacefully at that.

        • Southern Discomfort says:

          I don’t blame you, I could not do it either. Have we become so low that we actually place a value on life and preserving it? I think so, and this is a very sad day indeed.

          • It’s enough when you have to make that decision if they were in an accident and they are on life support, on whether or not to pull the plug. How do you do that? How can you make that choice, but knowing full well they will not have a normal life? That’s one of the hardest decisions anyone would have to make. No thanks, I don’t ever want to have to make that decision.

        • Judy,

          What Obama is proposing is advising at this time. His health Czars will issue guidelines in the years to come.
          Today, assisted suicide is legal in only one state. You can expect that to increase in years to come, and if they have their way, they will decide when someones life should end. As Esom has said, Logan’s Run in real life.

          My grandfather lived into his 90’s, got where he could not walk(knee joints), could not see too read or TV, could not hear music. He asked me why God was making him endure so much suffering. Passed in his sleep. He would have chosen to die with dignity.

          • That’s how it should be, with dignity. But like I said above, what do you do then, if you know that the person is going to be in a vegetated state? Would you be doing them a favor by pulling the plug or what?

            I keep coming back to that Terry Shievo however you spell it case. Look how long she was on life support. They took her off, then if memory serves me, she died within days of being taken off of it.

            I think a person should have everything written down, so the family knows for sure then on what to do. That way, hopefully, there will be no qualms about it.

            I agree with you about the government, and them deciding on who lives and who dies. That too, should not be a governmental decision, just like with telling doctors on how to run their practices.

  30. I see nothing good in the current proposals. Questions abound. The bills grant enormous authority to bureaucrats to do whatever they want.

    Any changes should:

    1. Widen the range of choices available to citizens.

    2. Encourage bright people to enter health care professions (increase the odds they can make lots of money by working hard and being good at what they do).

    3. Tax (i.e., don’t tax) health insurance premiums equally whether paid by individual or employer.

    4. Make it possible for health insurance companies to make a reasonable profit and encourage additional companies to enter the field.

    5. Keep the government as far away from day-to-day decisions as possible. Government’s role should be minimal, e.g., prevent (punish) fraud, enforce contracts.

    Beware of any congressional action. The devil is always in the details and, more importantly in what is NOT contained in the bills. Decisions left to bureaucrats because the law doesn’t spell it out will mostly not favor the citizens in the long term.

    The current proposals mostly fail these requirements.

    • “The bills grant enormous authority to bureaucrats to do whatever they want.”

      Now why is that a problem? If you have a dispute with the IRS, are they not eager and helpful in resolving it? OSHA? EPA?

      A very good point.

  31. Carolina Girl says:

    If 40 million people are suddenly insured, who will they go see? There is already a shortage of doctors and nurses.

    • Its much worse than that, if its free to them, they have every reason to go
      for any complaint. My plan has a co-pay, so a doctors visit is not expensive, but there is some out-of-pocket expense. We treat poison ivy ourselves, apply band-aids, bee stings, etc.. What if you did not have to buy a band-aid? Its free at the doctors office, you just have to wait a while.

  32. Black Flag says:


    Leaving water for human beings in a desert is a crime.

    The gov. believes the water encourages illegal immigrants. What a crock.

    • Littering

      The same act would get the same ticket on all federal lands.

      Am curious why the US Attorney used the immigration angle though since that was not the violation, at least from the article. If aiding illegals is a crime then shouldn’t they have arrested the Mayor and City Council of San Francisco?

      It would of course be encouraging, if they knew ahead of time that the water might/would be there for them. Otherwise it wouldn’t.

      Seems like one arm of govt is fighting against the other arm in this one.

  33. Sooooo disappointing I posted the tax rate for the United Kingdom on #6, thinking someone who lives there, and despises the US health system might respond. But noooooo. Guess it was not fair and balanced.

    How about it Bob, the warm beer drinker?

    • What you think I dont know how much I get taxed or what the tax brackets are? I object to many things the government spends my taxes on, the NHS is not one of them. I have had bad experiences with the US health system I dont despise it though, you guys can do whatever the hell you like, I will speak up when I hear lies and misrepresentation about the NHS. Without it I would either be dead or my family would have been bankrupted by the amount of time I spent in hospital as a child, I sure as hell would not be able to get insurance coverage if we had a US style system. Dont drink sorry.

      • I think I do not know if the information I found matches what you, a person living there experiences. I think every government run program may have a good side, but all will have a bad side, and that you have avoided that when you talk about your health system. I think no one has a perfect system, but our politicians are lying to us about much of this. The ideal of a health savings account is new to me, and is provoking some thoughts. Are you sure you could not afford insurance if your taxes were lower? Say 39% federal, local and state of 7% here, no state tax in Texas.

        I am sorry for your troubles as a child, but glad you had the inner strength to apparently overcome that. If you have the impression a poor child in the US would not receive world class care, let me offer some info. I live in a relatively poor state, but any child here will receive the best possible care, weather they can pay a dime for it, or all expenses. Look-up Arkansas Children’s Hospital.
        Realize there are many such hospitals in the US, Danny Thomas leads in cancer research.

        Also sorry if the warm beer offended, and that it missed. Hope you take it as humor. Will have to think of something else now. 7pm here, time to call it a day. A pleasant evening to you.

        • Ah here is the problem my dad had just started up his own business, I most likely would have recieved care but his premiums would have gone way up most likely to an unsustainable level. AS BF rightly points out why would you sell someone fire insurance whos house was on fire. I cannot think of a single reason an insurance company would offer me coverage due to my childhood ailments, business is business. I am not a millionaire (which I am very sad about) so I think I would struggle to pay for the medication I need.

          I certaintly dont think the NHS is perfect there are people who fall through the cracks, the NHS was absolutely gutted when the conservatives were in power in the 80’s and 90’s and is only starting to see the wait times come down and results improve.

          What I really dont get is the amount of money that is spent on health care in the US anyway. You spend more than double per person than what we do and most of the other countries that have UHC.

          You spend 15.3% of your GDP on health care we spend about 9%.

          I have no doubt that you can get some of the best care in the world through American hospitals what puzzles me is the way its delivered. Like I said earlier you have little to worry about with this supposed reform, nothing of consequence will come of it.

          I have pretty thick skin and it takes a hellovalot for me to get offended, have a good day.

          • Bob,

            “What I really dont get is the amount of money that is spent on health care in the US anyway. You spend more than double per person than what we do and most of the other countries that have UHC.”

            An excellent question, and its one the government does not want to ask. The left will say greedy drug/insurance companies, etc. The right will say forced government regulation destroyed the free market. Neither side is trying to get to a
            honest answer. Nor are they trying to reform or fix anything. Mandatory insurance is not reform.
            Myself, I would like to see a study of all the major successful health systems before they take any action. But few governments use logic ans reason.

            • Thats what I also dont understand, dont base a UHC system off the NHS, its not the best in the world. France, Germany, South Korea have arguably better systems and some you dont even have to argue. The US is the only developed country in the world that does not have a form of UHC. Problem is as soon as anyone mentions UHC in America a good chunk of people start foaming at the mouth thinking Comrade Obama is coming round to send the elderly to the death camp ovens if it was implemented.

              Anyways those are just my views, I dont live in the US so I dont have the full picture. I am just following all of this through several media channels. I just love your media both from the left and right.

    • Another thing that is a cause for concern is Daniel Hannan’s info that due to the European goverment run health care, their government is now the third largest employer in the WORLD (behind China’s Red Army and something in India). He said it wasn’t like this was a lot of doctors, nurses, PA’s and the like, but rather mostly Admin types.

      BO’s promises of job creation? He wasn’t lying after all – they will all be in the government to run this health care plan!

      • European government healthcare??? There is no such thing, Europe is comprised of many countries, each of which manage their own health services. Hannan was talking about the NHS and considering he most likely has never stepped into an NHS hospital to recieve treatment would struggle to comment on it.

  34. OK I have a story for you, and I think it can only get worse from here. Please don’t tell “he who controls the remote” that I passed this on.
    A week ago yesterday, we were having a few drinks with two friends (hunting buddies of his). We drank way too much! We even did brandy shooters (ewww). Mr. Willo decides he has had it, goes up to bed and passes out. One friend leaves. Mr. Willo yells down for me to come up for a sec. He wanted to lay on the floor with a pillow, blanket and his waste basket close at hand. Understandable, been there, done that. Friend who is still here, comes up, says he doesn’t see him breathing, calls 911. Insert eyeroll here. Needless to say, cops and EMT’s arrive, we are both telling them to get lost! Said friend drags me off to another room (telling me that if I resist I can get arrested) and the next thing I see is Ray being dragged down the stairs on a gurney. Friend drives me to the hospital, we reiterate that we want no treatment and said friend drives us home.
    1. Who is going to arrest me in my own house for being drunk and refusing medical treatment for my husband?
    2. Why did the cop and EMT’s take said friends word over mine and Ray’s that we did not wish to be treated?
    Anyhow, once Big Brother is in charge big time, lock your doors and windows brothers and sisters and never ever drink brandy shooters!

    • Oh, and I can’t wait to get the bill for the ambulance and time at the ER, at which point I just might call my lawyer 🙂

      • Funny story, best talk to a lawyer. You were not in a “sound” state of mind, so your judgment could be disregarded. Hospitals turn things over to bill collectors, keeps them out of direct line of fire.
        Might should send all bills to “friend” who insisted on him being taken.

        Best of luck to you.

      • And stay away from Brandy Shooters…….

  35. USW
    Since I can not get my reps to answer these questions maybe you can.
    1. If insurance companies are forced to insure a person that had never had insurance and had pre-exsisting conditions what safe guards are in place to prevent insurance companies from going broke? After all if I am going to be able to keep my exsisting policy what garentee is in place to assure that?
    2. Since poor people can not afford an insurance policy what is in place to insure that the patient can pay the deductibles and co-pays. Most hospital and Drs make you pay up front for proceedures that are not life threatening so how are they going to pay 2500+ when they can’t afford insurance?
    3. I though the healthcare reform was suppose to increase the quality of healthcare. Wy is there a clause to accept minorities in Med school who can not pass the entrance exam? Won’t that give us less qualified Drs and reduce the quality of healthcare?
    I have a lot more but we can start here. These issues I believe are the ones that will slam the people in the end and will be a “unforescene” conequence of our congress’s stupitity.

  36. USW, I have seen references to home visits for households with young children to ‘educate parents on child behavior and parenting skills’. That’s right up there with I’m from the gov’t and I’m here to help you. I grew up in a ‘village’ and thought that was a good thing and the best way to raise a child until Mrs. Clinton copped my quote and the gov’t became the village… I googled this and it’s supposed to be in section 44.

    Another topic that I’d like to know more about and haven’t seen mentioned is childhood vaccinations. This has become quite a controversial topic, and more and more parents are choosing to opt out of some and even all the shots. There are serious questions about the contents and long term side effects. Specifically, I’m wondering if any/what changes are being made in this area. This topic has been on my mind today after an exchange with Ray about his little guy. I’ve vacillated all day about recommending that he research those shots and really know what is being given to his baby. So there Ray, please research this one for yourself. That little one will come into his own in a brave, new world, please give him every advantage and consideration.

  37. “Honor In Office”

    As a registered independent I’m as tired as most of you of how our representative in office treat their ethical responsibilities to their office.

    It’s time for our representatives show honor in office. politicians pass laws with little to no public oversight. The only laws they have to follow are the ones they themselves set, and they don’t even follow those!

    Our elected officials are passing laws which they haven’t read, understood or researched.

    This is an example of the type of stuff that can and does go on at the state and federal levels.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hfhO38CPlAI

    Please see http://www.honorinoffice.org and show your support.

    Frank Fiore

  38. Another lie – You will not be able to keep existing insurance. Oh, you will for a while, but for 5 years max. If any changes are made to your plan before the 5 years, including its price and how the premiums are split between employer/employee, you must go into one of the government-approved plans, which will most likely be different from your existing plan.

    Most likely, high deductible plans will not be approved. You will only be allowed to have government-approved insurance.

    This is awful, even worse than I thought and I thought it was pretty bad.

  39. Hey USW:

    Check out this site with lots of data/info.



  40. Have a look at this one while you are at it USW. The one section will definitely push small business to strip away casual labor and remove any full time workers being carried by the business for large jobs or emergency off hours work. They won’t be saving anything at all by using an in-house rather than an outside contractor in a lot of cases. To small business there’s bugger all for choice. Either you provide health care or we’ll loot you to the tune of 8% of your total payroll. Obama is going to need a law against paring down the workers in a small business based on maintaining profitability. No need for unions at all if the government throws the shackles on small business itself.


  41. 650 lb virgin and oregon running back and brajole and neck infection and

%d bloggers like this: