ACORN… Time to Roast the Nuts Over an Open Fire

ObamacornThe last several days saw a vast amount of coverage surrounding ACORN, the community action group that is credited with playing a large part in the campaign of President Barack Obama. I begin writing this article with similar information to what all of you have already heard. Perhaps a little more from the extra junk that I have read. But I want to understand whether my negative opinion of ACORN is warranted or not. So I figured I would write an article, do the research, and figure out for myself if this organization is as crooked as they appear to be. On the surface the organization appears to have a ton of issues, especially given the string of videos that have been coming out over the last week and a half. There are lots of accusations (and subsequent denials) claiming that President Obama has a tie to ACORN. I will investigate that as well. But most important, this article is meant to be sort of a fact finding mission when it comes to ACORN. And in the end, we will wrap it up by noticing who is somehow completely not seeing ACORN anywhere on their radar.

Wade Rathke

Wade Rathke

ACORN is not a new group. They were founded in 1970 by Wade Rathke, a former member of the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS). Don’t let the name fool you. SDS was a radical organization that aspired to overthrow America’s democratic institutions, remake its government in a Marxist image, and help America’s enemies win the Vietnam War. The group developed from the Student League for Industrial Democracy, the youth branch of the socialist League for Industrial Democracy. In 1969 SDS began imploding into factions. One of them, a group calling itself Weatherman, was elected to SDS leadership and proclaimed that the time had come to launch a race war on behalf of the Third World and against the United States. The new entity dissolved SDS and formed a terrorist cult in its place, which was given the name Weather Underground. As is well reported, the Weather Underground was also the birthplace of William Ayers radical behavior.

Despite the claims otherwise, our President has, in fact, been “employed” by ACORN in the past. There are some possible connections, and some concrete ones. For example, in 1992, it has been claimed that Obama was hired by ACORN to work on the “Get Out the Vote” initiative. Obama did work on the GOTV initiative, but that initiative was done by many community organizations, of which ACORN was only one. Working on that initiative did not constitute working for ACORN. While serving on the board of the Woods Fund (serving with Bill Ayers on that board), the foundation gave grants of $75,000 in 2001 and $70,000 in 2002 to ACORN’s Chicago office. As a side note it should be noted that while on that board Obama also gave grants to the Arab American Action Network, founded by Columbia University professor Rashid Khalidi, who is a harsh critic of Israel and has made statements supportive of Palestinian terror.

Obama What's ACORNDuring the primary election, the Obama campaign also paid Citizens Services Inc., a group affiliated with ACORN, more than $800,000 for get-out-the-vote (not voter registration) efforts. His campaign finance records incorrectly reported the nature of the services provided by CSI, which may have been an oversight. Or it may have been a deliberate attempt to hide affiliation with a subsidiary of ACORN, who had been accused and convicted in voter fraud in the past. In 1995, a team of Chicago attorneys, including Obama, won a lawsuit on behalf of ACORN that forced the State of Illinois to implement the federal “motor voter” law. I don’t know just how involved with ACORN our current President is, but there is sure a lot of smoke and mirrors in terms of connections. And I did see the video of him giving a speech where he said, “I have been working alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career.” Since the early 1990’s, there are many different sordid connections between the President and ACORN. Some may be harmless, or may not be. But we do know Obama is great at hiding his past or reducing our ability to prove anything in it.

So let’s get back to ACORN itself. There is a long history of funny business and morally bankrupt behavior with this group. The group has often protested banks over their refusal to give mortgages to high risk candidates. The group protested that negative credit histories should not be allowed as criteria for approval of mortgage loans (hmmm, pressure to issue loans to those who don’t qualify. That sounds familiar). There are conservative groups that claim ACORN was a major part of the sub-prime mortgage crisis, but nothing that I could find gives them even the percentage of blame for that outcome that we can tie directly to Barney Frank. So I don’t know about laying that claim at their feet. What else do we know about ACORN and their sordid past?

MIXED SIGNALS ON WORKER RIGHTS: ACORN pressured the Chicago City Council to force big box retailers into paying $10 an hour to all employees. Sounds like a good thing to do. In California, ACORN petitioned the state to waive the requirement to pay their employees at least minimum wage on the grounds that they couldn’t operate effectively if they were forced to comply. In 2006, the National Labor Relations Board finds that ACORN violated federal law. They were apparently interrogating employees about union activities and firing workers who threatened to organize their Dallas office. In 2001, when workers in ACORN’s Seattle office signed cards to join the Industrial Workers of the World, they were locked out by ACORN management, which refused to recognize the union. So while forcing all other employers to play nice with the America worker (part of their platform), ACORN regularly takes part in all the activities that they claim to rally against.

ACORN Voter MapVOTER FRAUD: There is a long history of voter fraud allegations against ACORN. Of course, those on the left will say that this is nothing more than partisan conservative rhetoric. ACORN has conducted large-scale voter registration drives since at least the 1980s, focusing primarily on poor and minority citizens. They also focus on dead and imaginary citizens. In 1986, 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud in Missouri. In 2004, also in Missouri, six volunteers pleaded guilty of dozens of election law violations for filling out registration cards with names of dead people. In October 2006, St. Louis election officials discovered at least 1,492 “potentially fraudulent” voter registration cards, all turned in by ACORN volunteers. In November 2006, roughly 30,000 questionable voter registration forms were turned in by ACORN officials in Missouri. ACORN claimed to help empower the “disenfranchised” minorities living there. But the ACORN workers weren’t just told to register new voters. The workers admitted on camera that they were coached to tell registrants to vote for Democrat Claire McCaskill. In 2007, in Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted for fraud. In April of 2008, eight ACORN employees in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting bogus voter registrations. How’s all that? That is just in Missouri.

Prior to the November election (just as all the Missouri examples were), there were 11 other states with investigations ongoing against ACORN for voter fraud or voter registration fraud. Those states included North Carolina, Ohio, Indiana, Nevada, Wisconsin, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Florida, Texas, Michigan, and New Mexico. Outside of the Missouri convictions noted above, That’s just this year. four ACORN employees were indicted in Ohio in 2004 for submitting false voter registrations. Two Colorado ACORN workers were found to have submitted false registrations in 2005. Five ACORN employees were found guilty in Washington state in 2007 for filling out registration forms with names from a phone book.

ACORN FallenAnd in all this, we are supposed to not notice the fact that by October of 2008, ACORN claimed to have registered more than 1.3 million Democratic voters, let alone whatever they got in their final month of pushing leading up to the election. The Federal Election Board says that over 400,000 voter registrations gathered by ACORN were rejected or fraudulent. I read on several sites that the city of Philadelphia alone has turned over 50,000 “suspect” ACORN voter registration forms to the US Attorney, however I could not verify that one, so it may be bogus (Perhaps Ray, who lives near Philly, has more info on this one). I don’t think that it is a stretch to say that voter fraud is a systemic problem for ACORN. One incident you blow off as a rogue group. Two makes you look for connections. But when you have dozens and dozens, it becomes clear that this is a politically corrupt organization.

ACORN WorkerACORN HOUSING DIVISION VIDEOS: Here would be the recent firestorm for ACORN, and the one that might ultimately bring them to their knees (which means they will fold up camp, change their name, and continue with the mission, IMO). Two folks go into an ACORN Housing Office posing as a pimp and a prostitute. They tell a story about how they are bringing over El Salvadorian girls between the ages of 12-15 to be used as prostitutes. They ask how they can get funding through ACORN to get a house to run this illegal business. They also ask for recommendations on how to skirt that pesky Internal Revenue Service (perhaps they could ask Geithner and the rest of Obama’s cabinet). The ACORN employees offer them advice. They do NOT contact the authorities to turn in these “criminals”. The “pimp” is conservative activist James O’Keefe. He is frustrated with the lack of federal investigation into ACORN’s illustrious past.

ACORN gets pissed and fires the workers in the Baltimore office where the video was filmed. They call it a fluke and a “gotcha” attempt. O’Keefe then releases a similar video from the Washington DC ACORN office. Again the “gotcha” claims and firings (and to be honest, at this point they shouldn’t be calling it a “gotcha” attempt, they should be calling it a “gotcha” success). ACORN claims he tried this in 6 or 7 offices and got thrown out of the others. O’Keefe says he did not get thrown out of offices and releases another video, this time of the same occurrence in the Brooklyn, New York Office. ACORN threatens to sue O’Keefe, who says “bring it on” and releases video number 4, this time in the San Bernandino, California office. And then video number 5 is released in which a worker in the San Diego office offers advice on how to smuggle the girls from El Salvador into the US for prostitution through Tijuana. As I said before, one video and you have a bad office, two and you have a bad region, but now five videos shows a systemic problem with ACORN.

acorn MSMAs a result of this flurry of videos, the United States Census Bureau finds that they have no choice but to completely cut ties with ACORN, who was slated to play a substantial part in the 2010 census. Thank goodness, imagine the voter fraud folks responsible for giving an accurate count of anything. And then yesterday, the Senate passed the “Protect Taxpayers from ACORN Act” blocking the group from receiving taxpayer dollars. The amazing thing was that 7 United States Senators voted against blocking ACORN. That identifies 7 Senators who immediately should be removed. Today the House of Representatives voted 345-75 to strike ACORN funding from a student aid bill with two voting present (another 77 Representatives we can eliminate). The “Defund ACORN Act” prohibits any “federal contract grant, cooperative agreement or any other form of agreement (including a memorandum of understanding)” from being awarded to or entered into with the group. It also prohibits federal funds “in any other form” from being provided.

Yet, magically, as big as this story has been, the Main Stream Media doesn’t seem to want to cover it. Heck Charlie Gibson from ABC News said he “didn’t even know what the ACORN scandal was about”. But let’s be honest we are getting awful used to the main stream media ignoring anything that is harmful to a left leaning group or candidate. That is nothing new and it is why those organizations like MSNBC, CNN, ABC, and CBS are quickly becoming irrelevant and will not survive the next 10 years without a major ethical overhaul. The group that baffles me in their ignoring of the actions that ACORN has done is the United States Attorney General. Eric Holder and pals seem intent on beating this CIA dead horse forever but completely ignore ACORN and all that we see from them. Now that is an interesting turn of events, isn’t it friends?

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Comments

  1. Good Morning,

    I don’t have any respect for ACORN in any form, even before the videos surfaced. I actually had a coworker defend them as do alot of good for people, after the first video, his silence is golden after the release of the last four. From what I have heard on Fox, there are over a dozen such videos, so, more to come down the pike!

    What hasn’t been said, is that ACORN is non-profit, and by supporting any political candidate, they are in violation of Federal law (I’ll have to search for the details and post later).

    It seems that justice is being selective in this matter, and just an example of my distrust in the judicial system.

    Following today, Have a great day!

    G!

  2. There were three articles about the videos on the CNN website.

    The first one does more to portray the people who made the videos as ruthless and malicious conservatives out to make news.
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/10/acorn.prostitution/index.html#cnnSTCText

    The second one was a similar but less negative against the filmmakers.
    The third announced new training for employees.
    The fourth was about the cut in government funding.

    All of CNN stories on ACORN.
    http://topics.cnn.com/topics/association_of_community_organizations_for_reform_now

    Personally, you can probably find any political action organization pulling borderline legal to completely illegal stunts for their group. I do not see ACORN being any more guilty than any other group.

    They just got caught and made the news. Next month it may be a conservative group or another liberal group (I can only pray it is MOVEon.org).

  3. Hi USW: Hope you and Mrs. Weapon are doing well.

    Interesting how the media has totally ignored any criticism of ACORN. I guess if they ignore it, it will just go away?

    This is a criminal organization and needs to be put out of business. Of course the race card will be played in ACORN’s defense, but a lot of people know that this is just politics.

    Listening to the ACORN folks, the fact that the employees were recorded without their permission, is a far more serious issue that underage, illegal teen prostitutes. Please!!

  4. Richmond Spitfire says:

    Hi all…posting for emailed comments. Have a great day…RS

  5. Can you imagine if this were a conservative group?

    The “MSM” would be all over it.

  6. Read this one for a laugh at the current incarnation of POTUS’s expense:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/09/breaking-acorn-bombshell-4-due-from.html

  7. Alert in Michigan says:

    USW, your article is very helpful – and I love the cartoons. 🙂 They’re always a great addition to your research.

  8. Well, well. ABC is now covering ACORN.

    GOLDBERG: Everything, I mean, you know, there are boneheads in all organizations. We’ve worked for them. We know that they’re there. But do you kill the whole thing? And I don’t think so. A lot of people think that you should kill it. But you can’t answer, you can’t tell me where those people who become even more disenfranchised go. Because we know the Republicans aren’t going to take care of them. Cause we see that doesn’t work anymore for them. So now where do they go? I am sick and tired of people dismantling stuff and saying, “Oh, we’re for the people,” and then leaving the people this. Because they don’t care. Find a way to fix it.

    BEHAR: They haven’t dismantled the Catholic Church and they have some boneheads in there.

    GOLDBERG: This is true.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/09/18/view-sticks-acorn-republicans-arent-going-take-care-poor

    I don’t recall the Catholic church receiving millions of dollars from the government. Maybe Behar thinks the gov. should take that over also.

    • Isn’t it ironic for the women on The View to be talking about Boneheads???

      • Joy Behar seems to be the biggest idiot. She said something like 87
        in congress voted to stop their funding. I misspeak often, but my day job is not as a TV commentator. And I know the difference between congress and the senate.

        • Behar is a shrew and always has been. Always the first to tout “race” whenever called on something, always the first to change the subject once taken back onto her heels and always always always hateful of anything she doesn’t comprehend. Which for her certainly is a lot. With a staff to aid her she still can’t help but come off a pseudo-intellectual with delusions of taking second place at the Special Olympics’ spelling bee.

          Someone told me she was once into comedy and I immediately thought “making faces”?

    • You mean the best they could come up with to talk about ACORN was that womens gossip show? Oh that’s beautiful. That makes perfect sense. We should rename the MSM the “Fringe Media” like Glenn Beck says. They don’t report anything anymore to be called “Mainstream”.

      I don’t think there is anything anymore that you could call mainstream media. It’s all just a bunch of partisan news agencies out to help their political agenda.

      Fox at least gives lip service to being fair and balanced. A couple of others do too. Most are just rags no better than the National Enquirer.

      • I love Whoopi defending their “helping the poor” while being completely unaware of their political machinations. Do none on these shows have staff to research as they yappers indeed appear not to? If so, they certainly need to expand the search beyond the HuffPo, MSNBC and the New York Times.

    • “Well, they do a lot of good things too”. ACORN, Priests, whoever.

  9. Its sad that the only thing that most of our representatives can agree on is leaving a sinking ship. My real question is how many reps. only voted to deny ACORN funds because they thought if they hadnt it would have hurt their political career.

    • I vote ALMOST ALL on this one. There are Republicans too, recognizable by their being geezers, who are old school butter my bread and I’ll butter yours too politicians. You can bet they pitched POTUS keep me fed and I’ll keep quiet. When we were cleaning our house here it wasn’t the new politico in trouble. The seniors turned out to be the “players”. I’ll bet its the same in your house as not all grandpa types are nice old men. More than enough keep turning out to be dirty old scoundrels and in the game to STAY in the game.

    • I saw the list of the people who voted to keep acorn going like nothing happened. Roland Burriss is on the list.

  10. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/335622/Kucinich-Take-Insurance-Industry-Profits-to-Pay-for-Universal-Health-Care?tickers=AET,CI,WLP,UNH,%5EHCX,%5EDJI,%5EGSPC&sec=topStories&pos=9&asset=&ccode=

    I realize this is healthcare related and not ACORN related, but to anyone who loves Kucinich, they should love this tidbit.

    Personally I think this just proves (again) that the man is an idiot, but whatever… 🙂

    • That has to be one of the most asinine things I have ever heard. And when all the Insurance Companies go out of business because they’re not going to be in a business with no profits, then where will the money come from?

      Who takes it in the behind next? Or do they pass a Law preventing the insurance companies from going out of business? Bring them all under one umbrella and use a Government takeover? I can think of ways all day that this is just a ridiculous idea.

    • I like some of the comments:

      “Can we all get ipods if we take away Apple’s profits?”

      “Can we all get new computers if we take aways computer company’s profits?”

      Has Washington always been this downright stupid?

    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

      My favorite comment so far, from someone with the username Abi:

      “Wait Dennis, using that logic, let’s take all the auto industry profits (if there are any) and give everyone a free car, and why stop there, let’s take all the grocery store profits and give everyone free food, why not confiscate all the movie theaters profits…free movies for everyone!!! It must be nice to be COMPLETELY IGNORANT to basic economics…seems to be a common thread with most liberals. If you destroy private businesses by eliminating their incentive to exist, all we are left with is the government, who could’nt run a lemonade stand in the black.”

      That is a classic 🙂

  11. The 75 Democrats who are ACORN defenders
    Ethel C. Fenig

    Overwhelmingly but not unanimously; the vote was 345-75. David Freddoso of the Washington Examiner helpfully lists all 75.

    All of them are Democrats.

    Apparently Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) has a new modus operandi; neutrality. This week he voted present on the issue of rebuking Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC); Thursday he didn’t vote on this. Of course, ACORN helps its clients with mortgages, Frank deals with mortgages via Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Not voting still says volumes about Frank’s integrity.

    The ACORN congressional defenders:

    Tammy Baldwin, D-Wisc.
    Xavier Becerra, D-Calif.
    Robert Brady D-Pa.
    Corrine Brown, D-Fla.
    G.K. Butterfield, D-N.C.
    Mike Capuano, D-Mass.
    Andre Carson, D-Ind.
    Kathy Castor, D-Fla.
    Emanuel Cleaver, D-Mo.
    James Clyburn, D-S.C.
    Joseph Crowley, D-N.Y.
    Elijah Cummings, D-Md.
    Danny Davis, D-Ill.
    Diane DeGette, D-Colo.
    Bill Delahunt, D-Mass.
    Mike Doyle, D-Pa.
    Donna Edwards, D-Md.
    Keith Ellison, D-Minn.
    Eliot Engel, D-N.Y.
    Chaka Fattah, D-Pa.
    Bob Filner, D-Calif.
    Marcia Fudge, D-Ohio
    Al Green, D-Tex.
    Raul Grijalva, D-Ariz.
    Maurice Hinchey, D-N.Y.
    Mazie Hirono, D-Hawaii
    Rush Holt, D-N.J.
    Mike Honda, D-Calif.
    Jesse Jackson, Jr. D-Ill.
    Sheila Jackson-Lee, D-Tex.
    Eddie Bernice Johnson, D-Tex.
    Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, D-Mich.
    Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio
    Rick Larsen, D-Wash.
    Barbara Lee, D-Calif.
    John Lewis, D-Ga.
    Stephen Lynch, D-Mass.
    Markey, D-Mass.
    Betty McCollum, D-Minn.
    McDermott, D-Wash.
    McGovern, D-Mass.
    Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y.
    Alan Mollohan, D-W.Va.
    Gwen Moore, D-Wisc.
    Jim Moran, D-Va.
    Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y.
    Richard Neal, D-Mass.
    John Olver, D-Mass.
    Frank Pallone, D-N.J.
    Bill Pascrell, D-N.J.
    Donald Payne, D-N.J.
    Jared Polis, D-Colo.
    David Price, D-N.C.
    Nick Rahall, D-W.Va.
    Charlie Rangel, D-N.Y.
    Lucille Roybal-Allard, D-Calif.
    Bobby Rush, D-Ill.
    Linda Sánchez, D-Calif.
    Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill.
    David Scott D-Ga.
    Bobby Scott, D-Va.
    Jose Serrano, D-N.Y.
    Brad Sherman, D-Calif.
    Albio Sires, D-N.J.
    Louise Slaughter, D-N.Y.
    Pete Stark, D-Calif.
    Bennie Thompson, D-Miss.
    Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y.
    Niki Tsongas, D-Mass.
    Nydia Velázquez, D-N.Y.
    Maxine Waters, D-Calif.
    Diane Watson, D-Calif.
    Henry Waxman, D-Calif.
    Robert Wexler, D-Fla.
    Lynn Woolsey, D-Calif.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/09/the_75_democrats_who_are_prose.html

  12. bottom line says:

    My hat goes off to Mr. O’keefe and his pretty little friend Hannah Giles. They have done a great service to our nation. It shows how powerful two people with a simple plan and a video camera can be. HA HA HA! ACORN’s busted again, BIG TIME, and they’re going down!

  13. My Rep was one that voted against taking away their funding – her excuse? She didn’t have enough information yet. Say what?

    USW – good article, but it is just a start. You don’t mention the Anita MonCrief (former ACORN employee) and subsequent NYT cover-up when it starting getting too close to BO.

    Also, loved Pelosi’s, “don’t know about ACORN’s defunding” statement earlier this week. Seems like this issue came up earlier in the summer (due to MonCrief’s testimony before Congress) and here is how Pelosi handled it then.

    http://www.winkydog.net/2009/06/23/pelosi-gagging-america-pelosi-prevents-acorn-spending-debate/

  14. Off topic, but I got to wondering who supports that slimeball Franks.

    Top 20 Contributors
    Congressman Barney Frank 2007 – 2008

    Select cycle and data to include:

    * Campaign Cmte Only
    * Leadership PAC Profile Only
    * Campaign Cmte & Leadership PAC Combined
    * This member does not have a Leadership PAC

    Representative Barney Frank has reported a total of 1,351 contributions ($200 or more) totaling $959,419. To search these itemized contributions for this member, click here.

    Top 20 Contributors to Campaign Cmte
    Rank ↓ Contributor ↓ Total ↓ Indivs ↓ PACs ↓

    1 Brown Brothers Harriman & Co $36,200 $36,200 $0
    2 Bank of America $15,750 $1,750 $14,000
    3 Manulife Financial $15,000 $7,000 $8,000
    4 Royal Bank of Scotland $13,800 $7,800 $6,000

    5 Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu $13,000 $3,000 $10,000
    6 American Bankers Assn $12,050 $2,300 $9,750
    7 CME Group $12,000 $0 $12,000
    7 National Assn of Realtors $12,000 $2,000 $10,000

    7 New York Life Insurance $12,000 $2,000 $10,000
    10 American Society of Appraisers $11,000 $0 $11,000
    10 JPMorgan Chase & Co $11,000 $1,000 $10,000
    10 Morgan Stanley $11,000 $0 $11,000

    10 Securities Industry & Financial Mkt Assn $11,000 $1,000 $10,000
    14 Bernstein, Litowitz et al $10,900 $10,900 $0
    14 Ernst & Young $10,900 $900 $10,000
    16 PricewaterhouseCoopers $10,250 $250 $10,000
    17 ACA International $10,000 $0 $10,000
    17 AFLAC Inc $10,000 $0 $10,000

    17 American Assn for Justice $10,000 $0 $10,000
    17 American Institute of CPAs $10,000 $0 $10,000
    17 Chicago Board Options Exchange $10,000 $0 $10,000
    17 Credit Suisse Group $10,000 $0 $10,000

    17 Credit Union National Assn $10,000 $0 $10,000
    17 Equifax Inc $10,000 $0 $10,000
    17 FMR Corp $10,000 $1,000 $9,000
    17 Goldman Sachs $10,000 $0 $10,000

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Dearest LOI…

      I am sooooo embarrassed…My Employer is almost at the very top of that list…

      I am sooooo %issed…I “contribute” to the PAC for my Employer…

      My Employer tells their employees that our PAC contributions are purely voluntary and that if we choose not to contribute that it won’t be held against us…that we won’t be “black-balled”. ,YEAH, Right.

      I was told when I became an officer of the company many years ago by my manager that I should indeed contribute (she told me this as “guidance”, not that she wanted me to contribute). So…I contribute a minimal amount EVERY year so that I’m not put on some $hit List somewhere…(imagined or not).

      This just totally sucks…and with today’s economy and job losses, I’m just too “scared” to not continue my minimal contributions.

      Thanks and I hope you are having a wonderful day,
      RS

      • Spitfire, Don’t let it get you down. We are all learning from each other here. I’m sure I’ve taught Flag a few things(hehehe). You have to take care of yourself first, before you can help others.

        My day seems to be a topic from the other day, everyone here is in a pissy mood. I’ve told a few to stay away from me and leave me out of all their fussing. Its raining, so maybe I need to go look for a rainbow.

      • RS,

        “The situation is hopeless, but it’s not serious.”

        The economy will fail because that is what it must do.

        The government will collapse because that is what it must do.

        Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes*

        So, prepare one’s self to the best you can.

        And Remember, the Universe always wins.

        *It is foolish to fear that which you cannot avoid

        • Well said BF. The first useful thing you learn as a kid hearing “you have cancer” is “don’t sweat what’s out of your hands” and that’s still with me today, 34 years later. What’s going to happen always does.

  15. Credo quia absurdum est

  16. Morning All

    Just reading along for now.

    Hope all has a good day today.

    TGIF

    Judy

  17. nuts don’t fall far the tree .. take a look at this …

    http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/09_Photo_of_Day/090918.photo.of.day.html

  18. Don’t know if this is a good thing or not, but to be honest, I think I’ve heard it all now. Can’t say I ever heard of this one.
    ________________________________________________________________

    The Easy-Bake Oven, made for ages 8 & up, was recalled because if kids put their fingers in the slot they could get stuck or burn themselves.

    Americans who slap $1 pricetags on their used possessions at garage sales or bazaar events risk being slapped with fines of up to $15 million, thanks to a new government campaign.

    The “Resale Round-up,” launched by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, enforces new limits on lead in children’s products and makes it illegal to sell any items that don’t meet those limits or have been recalled for any other reason.

    The strict standards were set in the 2008 Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act after a series of high-profile recalls of Chinese-made toys.

    The standards were originally interpreted to apply only to new products, but now the CPSC says they apply to used items as well.

    “Those who resell recalled children’s products are not only breaking the law, they are putting children’s lives at risk,” said CPSC Chairman Inez Tenenbaum. “Resale stores should make safety their business and check for recalled products and hazards to children.”

    In order to comply, stores, flea markets, charities and individuals selling used goods — in person or online — are expected to consult the commission’s 24-page Handbook for Resale Stores and Product Resellers (pdf) and its Web site for a breakdown of what they can’t sell.

    Violators caught selling anything on the enormous list face fines of up to $100,000 per infraction and up to $15 million for a related series of infractions.

    Though the CPSC says it won’t be sending enforcers to garage sales or yard sales, FOX News Legal Analyst Bob Massi says the law makes no distinction for families and small resellers.

    “Most people having garage sales at this point don’t have much anyway, so to have a fine levied against them is tantamount to harassment,” Massi told FOXNews.com. “And if you or I asked 100 people about this, they would never even know the law exists.”

    Don Mays, senior director of product safety planning at the publisher of Consumer Reports, says the hefty penalties are necessary to have an impact.

    “The former civil penalty limit of $1.87 million was too small to be an effective deterrent to large companies who flagrantly violated the law,” Mays told FOXNews.com. “Mattel and its subsidiary Fisher-Price, for example, recently paid a $2.3 million penalty for importing about 2 million toys that violated the CPSC 30-year-old lead paint ban — that amounts to just over one dollar per toy.”

    When FOXNews.com came to his garage sale, vendor Ilan Broochian said the same was not the case for his household.

    “You fine me in today’s economy $1000 dollars and that would hurt me,” Broochian said. “So, just make the fine bigger to them; don’t take their responsibility and put it on me.”

    VIDEO: FOXNews.com Visits the Broochians’ Garage Sale

    “It is scary to think that there could be such hefty fines imposed on unsuspecting households,” another garage sale organizer, Patti Lombardi, told FOXNews.com. “I think I speak for many people when I say that the government spends too much time interfering in the individual citizen’s personal life and this is almost bordering on the ridiculous … what if it opens up a Pandora’s box of litigation brought by the purchasers of items at garage sales?”

    CPSC spokesman Scott Wolfson says the law may be tough, but it’s necessary to keep consumers — and especially children — safe.

    “Many children have choked and died on small parts that have broken off or been incorporated into toys,” Wolfson told FOXNews.com.

    He noted that dozens of children have swallowed powerful magnets that fell out of magnetic toys and have needed open-chest surgery as result.

    “We don’t make haphazard decisions about risks here at CPSC,” he said. “So much of what we do here and what this new law aims to achieve is looking at issues where children have been hurt previously.”

    But critics say the Resale Round-up is just another example of the government overstepping its boundaries.

    “It’s absurd when nanny-state bureaucrats want to regulate things we buy at mom-and-pop shops or second-hand stores,” Wes Benedict, executive director of the Libertarian National Committee, told FOXNews.com. “Consumer product safety is best left to a free market where suppliers can compete based on reputation and track records. American grown-ups aren’t stupid, and they know they need to be careful about what they buy for their children from complete strangers at no-name stores.”

    Toy industry expert and TimetoPlayMag.com content director Chris Byrne says the law is well-intended, but it may be taking things too far.

    “The overall law I think is awfully broad and doesn’t take all of the science into effect,” he told FOXNews.com. “You can’t consume lead by touching something and putting your finger in your mouth. That’s not how it happens. The lead has to be injested and has to be injested in particles small enough to enter the bloodstream or on a material in the stomach where it will be digested in the stomach acids and go into the bloodstream — and that’s never happened from toys.”

    In cases where toys have injured children, Byrne said the injuries often resulted from misusing the product.

    “In virtually all the cases of magnet swallowing these were things that were swallowed by kids that were below the age grade, or in the case of the older kids they were pretending to have tongue piercings. By banning magnets, you’re not going to stop that level of play,” Byrne said.

    PHOTOS: Controversial Recalls

    “When you bring something into your home there should be an assumption of risk,” he added. “And if you have a child under 3 and you bring in something age graded for 5 and up – who’s responsibility is that? I think it’s the parents’.”

    And toys aren’t the only issue. Byrne said the biggest challenge now is for all school products.

    “If I’ve got a wirebound notebook, the lead content in that wire binding is now under scrutiny, even though the chance of ingesting lead in any amount from something like that is virtually non-existent,” he said. “It’s a level of political grandstanding to say ‘we’re taking care of everything,’ but the science clearly demonstrates that the transference is not really possible — I mean, a child who eats the wire binding from a notebook is going to have significantly worse health problems than lead.”

    The Resale Round-up has led some resale stores and charities to stop accepting children’s goods altogether, something President and CEO of Goodwill Industries Jim Gibbons said has some clients concerned.

    “I saw on blogs, consumers saying, ‘Don’t take away my ability to shop at Goodwill for children’s clothing – this is how I clothe my kids and get them to school,'” Gibbons told FOXNews.com.

    The problem, he said, is every not-for-profit and ‘mom and pop thrift shop’ has different capabilities and resources and a broad-brush approach may leave them unable to provide services.

    Still, Gibson said, Goodwill generally has been able to continue serving its communities, and he believes CPSC is working hard to take a law “that was probably written in haste” and implement it in an effective manner.

    “They’re really committed to common-sense approaches and working in good faith with at least the social services kind of thrift segment,” he said. “And we’ve been working very proactively with them to make sure that folks at Goodwill are educated, have access to the CPSC guidelines and are making themselves available for as much training as CPSC can provide as they try to figure out how to work with this legislation.”

    For more information on the Resale Round-up go to http://www.cspc.gov.

    • They are already issuing fines in California at garage sales.

    • Richmond Spitfire says:

      Judy,

      Good Find! This is just unbelievable…ARGHHH!

      I’m immediately starting a new industry — do I have any takers for business partners. I’m going to make millions off the books and the how-to videos. Tort lawyers are going to be coming to me for advice!

      My new business will be service based and it will teach lazy-@ss persons how they can go to yard sales and thrift stores and quickly spot and intentionally purchase these very dangerous products. My how-to’s will include emergency first aid, heimlach(sp?) manuever and mouth-to-mouth.

      Training will include how to artfully create a mishap at the yardsale or store without EVEN having to purchase the faulty and horrible product.

      How-to Videos will instruct the lazy-@ss how to artfully pop a lead button from a vintage suit into the open mouth of their baby. I think I will use Octomom as my celebrity with her 8 babies lined up in Gucci apparel, mouths open.

      Anyone with me on this new business endeavor????? Does anyone think that I can get some government money to start this business…OOOOpppsss…maybe ACORN already had my idea!

      RS

      • I just think the whole thing is ridiculous anyway. Didn’t know they already fine people in Calif. I guess they’ll come up with a garage sale czar now, going around to all garage sales to see if what people are selling can be sold or not. PLEASE!

        Thank goodness I can escape this weekend for a few hours to go to the air races here. But that won’t be until Sunday. Oh Well!. Better Sunday, than not at all.

        Have a nice day.

    • I know, why don’t we stop buying cheap-assed plastic toys made with lead from China? Oh wait. That would be too easy.

      Instead, we’ll make it the American Public’s responsibility to safeguard people against lead poisoning. And if they don’t do a good enough job. We’ll fine the HELL out of them!

    • How about a portable lead detector for those yard sales? You want to buy that flower pot for a dime, scan it and make sure its safe.

      • Don’t more choke on unchewed food? New law for serving non puree food stuffs to minors coming up!

        • Have read frying bacon is worse for you than second hand smoke. So ban bacon (good luck with that).

          We all know this is not about making anyone safe, its about control first, revenue second.

          • So there’s a new Chew Czar on the way to hold hands with the Garage Sale Czar and they may end up pondering ratting out Habib to the Taxi Czar for his love of Bollywood show tunes.

    • I read about this today as well. The end of the world as we know it is coming to pass. Pray for the best but prepare for the worst!

  19. The whole world is freaking crazy.

    To hell with it, I am going fishing.

    Hope you all have a great day.

    Ta Ta for Now

    To Live Free You Must Be Free
    JAC

    • I’m with you JAC – need to escape – going for a run and hoping it helps.

      Later Everyone!

    • JAC, before you go, didn’t you say that one of yours is autistic? If so, after you get back from fishing, look at this link,

      http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=ai1vaKpmr9jg

      If I’m mistaken, my apologies.. c also if you disliked the world’s smartest garbageman crack the other day .. you’re the best — c

      • Csm:

        Your memory serves you well. Thanks for the link. Very, very interesting.

        Figured the garbageman had something to do with the site or some joke/character.

        No worries mate. I thought is was done with tongue in cheek affection.

        Besides, I worked with my Dad as a janitor a couple of years and I met some damn smart garbagemen.

        Hope you day went well.
        Mine was fabulous.
        A little to much sun but we all must pay a little price for real fun.

        • The garbageman is a character in Dilbert – who is a genius.

          • Thanks for posting these BF. Did you see that the IMF is planning another gold sale? My (very brief) look at this says we may see the price drop back down. Your thoughts.

            ps — 😉 please take a look at a South African company called Sasol. They have some interesting technology. Hope all is well.

            • Sasol is heavily into making products from the Fischer–Tropsch process. This the old German method of making liquid fuel from coal or natural gas. It is expensive but they have refined the method based upon need when SA was cut off from crude oil sources.

            • The IMF announcement has already caused a blip – but gold still went up. 400 tonnes is small potatoes.

  20. Today’s chart illustrates how earnings declined over 92% since peaking in Q3 2007, which makes it easily the largest decline on record (the data goes back to 1936).

    *The recession is over!……

    ….and the moon is cheese!*

  21. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/17/MNF619OSF4.DTL

    I always chuckle with a Statist (like Mattius and Chris) complains that I am using “Slippery Slope” arguments against them.

    Their refrain is: “Oh no, legislating “this” does not mean the government is going to control ALL your life”

    I warned, years ago, that once they banned smoking, they would go after being too fat. Slippery Slope! cries went up everywhere!

    Calling soda the new tobacco, San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom will introduce legislation this fall that would charge a fee to retailers that sell sugary beverages.

    The lesson: every action of government is a Slippery Slope – government cannot stop – it will continue to impose and crush and kill and destroy freedom and rights.

    • It’s already started BF, little by little. Like a cancer eating away at you, one nibble at a time.

      BTW, How was your poker tourney?

      • My KJ vs Villians’ KT

        – he was a weak player who had played too many weak starting hands way too aggressive.

        He raised, I went all in and as predicted, he called.

        Caught him! I’m a 4/1 lead.

        He flops 10,10,(blank) …. sigh.

        There is always ‘tommorrow’ 🙂

        • My youngest son won $2000 last night at the Atlantis Casino. He got a royal flush. He play the video poker machines. Took a picture of it. That will help him in buying the books he needs for school. They can be quite expensive.

          Catch ya later BF, leaving for work here shortly.

        • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

          Reminds me a bit of the tourney I watched where on the opening hand of the entire tourney, at one particular table the flop is:

          A 10 10

          Some guy goes all in because he holds A 10 in his hand and figures to be the sure winner.

          One of his opponents calls… with pocket aces.

    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

      Anyone with any sense and any ability to correctly analyze the behavior of government saw this one coming…

      Now for the truly stupid question of the day:

      If smoking is SO BAD, why not just outlaw it completely?

      Ir sugary drinks are so bad, why not just outlaw them completely?

      Answer #1, because if they outlawed these things, it would COST the government money instead of allowing the government to STEAL MORE MONEY.

      Answer #2, if they outlawed sugary drinks, KOOL-AID would be illegal, and the Statists would be in immense trouble if they couldn’t distribute (and put a sugary-drink tax on) Kool-Aid 🙂

  22. Even some of the higher ups have known for sometime that Acorn is a front for illegal activity.

    http://www.acorn-8.net/

  23. – Social Security was established in 1935 – they’ve had 74 years to get it right; it is broke.

    – Fannie Mae was established in 1938 – they’ve had 71 years to get it right; it is broke.

    – Freddie Mac was established in 1970 – they’ve had 39 years to get it right; it is broke.

    Together Fannie and Freddie have now led the entire world into the worst economic collapse in 80 years.

    – The FED was established 1913 to “Conduct…. the economy in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates.
    ….ensure the safety and soundness of the nation’s banking and financial system
    ….Maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk …” and has, instead done precisely the opposite. It broke the nation.

    – The War on Poverty was started in 1964 – they’ve had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our hard earned money is confiscated each year and transferred to “the poor”; it hasn’t worked.

    – Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 – they’ve had 44 years to get it right; they are both broke; and now our government dares to mention them as models for all US health care.

    – AMTRAK was established in 1970 – they’ve had 39 years to get it right; last year they bailed it out as it continues to run at a loss!

    And, to my amazement, there are still people who believe that government action can do good.

    Ad absurdum!

    – This year, a trillion dollars was committed in the massive political payoff called the Stimulus Bill of 2009; it shows NO sign of working; it’s been used to increase the size of governments across America, and raise government salaries while the rest of us suffer from economic hardships. It has yet to create a single new private sector job. Our national debt projections (approaching $10 trillion) have increased 400% in the last six months.

    – “Cash for Clunkers” was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009 – after 80% of the cars purchased turned out to be produced by foreign companies, and dealers nationwide are buried under bureaucratic paperwork demanded by a government that is not yet paying them what was promised.

    • Glenn Beck was on the night before last with a clip on how the United States is monetizing it’s debt through the Fed.

      Buying up their own debt by printing money. How could ANYONE think that would work? Because they know it will not work. Putting off the downfall. For just a little longer.

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

        This is perhaps the main reason the FED was created in the first place.

        It used to be the Treasury that minted and printed coins and currency. The government willingly gave that power (unconstitutionally) to the FED, which is supposedly NOT part of the government, but a private entity.

        If the Treasury still had the ability to mint and print, it COULD NOT PRINT MONEY TO PAY ITS OWN DEBT. The FED, which is NOT the Treasury, CAN mint and print to pay the debt of the Treasury! Neat trick, no?

      • I watched that also. Beck said this time last year there was

        $800 Billion US dollars in circulation.
        $1.7 Trillion US dollars in circulation today.

        Their basic conclusion was it would devalue the dollar. If we were splitting a pizza in half, and two friends show up and we share that
        one pizza, my half became one fourth.

        • The one thing I got was that BF had explained this and how the Government was doing it a few months ago.

          Beck was explaining the same thing to a VERY large audience. I think he needs to press this harder. Maybe try to explain it so that even the biggest simpleton can understand what they are doing to us.

    • ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

  24. The ostensible supporters of the Constitution, like the ostensible supporters of most other governments, are made up of three classes, viz.:

    1. Knaves, a numerous and active class, who see in the government an instrument which they can use for their own aggrandizement or wealth.

    2. Dupes — a large class, no doubt — each of whom, because he is allowed one voice out of millions in deciding what he may do with his own person and his own property, and because he is permitted to have the same voice in robbing, enslaving, and murdering others, that others have in robbing, enslaving, and murdering himself, is stupid enough to imagine that he is a “free man,” a “sovereign”; that this is “a free government”; “a government of equal rights,” “the best government on earth,” and such like absurdities.

    3. A class who have some appreciation of the evils of government, but either do not see how to get rid of them, or do not choose to so far sacrifice their private interests as to give themselves seriously and earnestly to the work of making a change.

    • BF,

      I think you are partially right, but also partially wrong. The Constitution does not set up an evil government, but government is dependant upon people. People are sometimes evil and greedy and immoral and stupid and that causes the problems, not the form of government. Any form of government has the potential for much good and the potential for much evil. A republic, though has more safeguards against evil that other forms. America though does not follow the Constitution and does not have a Republic anymore, not because of a flaw in the Constitution, but because of the many flaws in human nature. This is not a fixable problem unless you wish to use absolute coersion to force everyone to be good. Can you say, Satan?

      Doing away with govenrment altogether, not only can not last, but also results in a free for all state where there are absolutely no constraints on the individual against his or her evil tendencies. People are not good, that is why we require government. If men were angels we would need no government. (Who said that? I can’t remember off the top of my head)

      • Michelle

        I’d like to highlight just one of your thoughts here, so you can help me of a logical conundrum.

        If men are not angels and ‘have evil tendencies’, you claim we need government.

        But government is made man – who, as you admit, are not angels and have evil tendencies.

        So now we have government that has evil tendencies – have we gained anything?

        I think we have gained a terrible thing.

        An evil man may kill a handful – evil government kills millions.

        Government centralizes evil and legitimizes it.

        A utility and tool with centralized power and legitimacy would attract the very men who are evil! They now can act without the risk evil men have individually!

        An individual who is evil faces a society that seeks to destroy evil. Evil man is subdued by such force.

        But government overwhelms society – hence, protects evil men from society. Thus, is very attractive for men of evil! Men who are not evil need no such protection from moral society.

    • Hi judy hope you got my emails . Ive been reading for a good hr and gman said it. this country is going down by goverment I spend a lot of time getting ready. all i can say is God Help This Country before it is to late
      whitehorn

      • Hi Whitehorn

        Yes, I got your emails, was going to answer them later today. Just putsing around on the computer for now. Am at work, not much to do today, yet. Boy, you can say that again, this country is going down real fast, no thanks to whose running it, and all his henchmen.

        Good Grief, just think, another 3 years of this crap. Can hardly wait to see what language we’ll be speaking by then. Time to find another location to live in. But just where is the big question.

        Have a good one.

        Judy

  25. Acorn is evil and I’m very glad they’re being shut down, but they are only one small piece of the puzzle. It seems though that much of this is coming to light, not only Acorn, but other people and organizations. Evil requires dark, light kills it, so there’s hope. Also I think this is all happening in the nick of time. If America’s financial collapse had happened before we discovered all this evil, things wwould turn out much worse. As it is, I think there’s hope that things can eventually improve.

    • Michelle,

      Well said. I was thinking this morning and even tried to do a search for community organizers this morning, could not frame the question right. I just wonder how many other ACORNs are out there?

      • We could ask someone who knows “How many other ACORNs are out there?” but I’m doubtful the current incarnation of POTUS will return our calls.

  26. I may have told this before, and if so, I apologize.

    My dad worked for an electric utility company in Arkansas in the 70s and 80s. One of his managerial duties was dealing with people who had not paid their electric bill. He would work with them any way he could, and as a last resort, shut off their electricity. Often, the only ones who actually got shut off were the people who would chain dogs to the meter to try to prevent a “reading”, and would rack up a huge bill, and then mysteriously vanish to be replaced by someone with a different name- over and over. Yet no one was moving in or out of these dwellings, and sometimes the “new” people looked exactly the same as the previous occupant. Once shut off they would show up at the office in a rage and call my dad a “fat toad” or some other inventive witticism. Now, if these people were of one particular race, when their electricity was finally shut off ACORN would show up to demand that the power be re-connected without any money being paid, or sometimes for a tiny percentage that was owed. If this failed Bill Clinton’s cronies would pressure my dad’s bosses to make him re-connect. It usually worked. So, those of us who actually pay our utility bills are also paying the bills of those who want something for nothing. Think of that the next time you pay your utility bills.

  27. Okay, this is going to far now.
    _____________________________________________________________________________-

    Another textbook battle in TX – Christmas tossed?
    Pete Chagnon – OneNewsNow – 9/18/2009 5:00:00 AMBookmark and Share

    The Texas State Board of Education is gearing up for another curriculum battle.

    Kelly Shackelford, president of Plano-based Liberty Legal Institute, says the Texas State Board of Education is currently reviewing social studies curriculum. He explains that in a suprising move the writing committee, in its review of religious holidays, has decided to replace Christmas and Rosh Hashana with the Hindu holiday of Diwali.

    “Some of this stuff is really getting out of hand,” says Shackelford, “and I think the people are going to take it back into their own hands and say, cut it out we are not replacing Christmas with Diwali. I hope and expect that will be the result, but right now that’s what we’ve got.”

    The Board faced another major battle earlier this year with science standards and the teaching of strengths and weaknesses of evolutionary theory. Many concerned citizens made their voices heard, and the strengths and weaknesses component was not dropped from teaching requirements. In fact, it was strengthed.

    “What’s encouraging about all this is that if people speak up, they really can make the difference,” the attorney shares. “And this will effect the textbooks that are going to be in place for the next ten years.”

    The Lone Star State is one of the nation’s largest consumers of textbooks. Consequently, the outcome could have national implications.

    • I don’t understand this…

      What are they dropping exactly?

      I find it amusing when scientists oppose including all the facts of a theory. If evolution is true, then it should be strong enough to counter anything that suggests it is wrong. Excluding dissenting information just weakens the theory.

      Einstein was arguably the creator and yet biggest opponent of quantum mechanics. No one would dare leave out his dissent because he is such a big name, but the theory is still held as holding some truth because of its strengths. If Einstein’s dissent were ignored, the theory would not have been so rigorous and coherent (IMO) because no one would have to worry about the issues Einstein raised.

      That was probably not a good analogy because the topic is quite abstruse to the non-physicist, but fits well in my mind…

      • The problem is that many of the supposed “weaknesses of the evolutionary theory” are not weaknesses at all, but are instead creationist nonsense.

        Using the quantum mechanics analogy, it is as if Einstein had insisted that leprechauns were to blame for the seemingly random nature of the quantum world which he disliked, not a fundamental uncertainty. To demand the the “Leprechaun hypothesis” be considered as exposing a weakness of quantum mechanics doesn’t shed any light on the reality of the physical world.

        Most creationism, or “ID” as it is often called now, can be very easily disproved, but the proponents don’t accept the science, or change the terms they use to seem as though they are presenting something new.

    • Ahhh…Judy…do not despair. Wait and watch. Nothing will change. They teach both the Creationist and Evolution theory now…and the religious holidays will not be dropped. Just watch….we are pretty good at this.

      • Hey D13

        Well this really got my goat. Can’t they leave anything alone? Tired of always having to conform to others. Can’t call it Christmas break anymore, has to be called winter break. Don’t know about other places, but some of the schools here won’t even allow Christmas plays, because it might offend somebody. Well, what about us being offended? Guess we don’t count anymore.

  28. A dedication to ACORN, Hope Glenn Gives You Hell

    Gives You Hell Lyrics

    I wake up every evening
    With a big smile on my face
    And it never feels out of place.
    And you’re still probably working
    At a 9 to 5 pace
    I wonder how bad that tastes

    When you see my face
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell
    When you walk my way
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell

    Now where’s your picket fence love
    And where’s that shiny car
    Did it ever get you far?
    You never seem so tense, love
    Never seen you fall so hard
    Do you know where you are?

    Truth be told I miss you
    Truth be told I’m lying

    When you see my face
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell
    When you walk my way
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell
    If you find a man thats worth the damn and treats you well
    Then he’s a fool you’re just as well hope it gives you hell
    Hope it gives you hell
    [Gives You Hell Lyrics On http://www.elyricsworld.com/ ]
    Tomorrow you’ll be thinking to yourself
    Where did it all go wrong?
    But the list goes on and on

    Truth be told I miss you
    Truth be told I’m lying

    When you see my face
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell
    When you walk my way
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell
    If you find a man that’s worth the damn and treats you well
    Then he’s a fool you’re just as well hope it gives you hell

    Now you’ll never see
    What you’ve done to me
    You can take back your memories
    They’re no good to me
    And here’s all your lies
    If you look me in the eyes
    With the sad, sad look
    That you wear so well

    When you see my face
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell
    When you walk my way
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell
    If you find a man that’s worth the damn and treats you well
    Then he’s a fool you’re just as well hope it gives you hell

    When you see my face
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell (hope it gives you hell)
    When you walk my way
    I hope it gives you hell, I hope it gives you hell (hope it gives you hell)
    When you hear this song and you sing along well you’ll never tell
    And you’re the fool I’ve just as well I hope it gives you hell
    When you hear this song I hope that it will give you hell
    You can sing along I hope that it puts you through hell

    • Oh, you’re so condescending
      Your gall is never-ending
      We don’t want nothing, not a thing from you

      Oh, you’re so trite and jaded
      Boring and constipated (?)
      If that’s your best, your best won’t do

      We’re right, YEAH
      We’re free, YEAH
      We’ll fight
      You’ll see

      We’re not gonna take it
      No, we ain’t gonna take it
      We’re not gonna take it anymore

      Dee Snider, Twisted Sister

  29. Now, I ask, which one is more important. The minnow, or farmers and their way of living. Why would they put the minnow ahead of the farmers and their living. I understand, they are only getting 10% of the water they need to grow their crops. I also understand that some of the farmers had to quit their businesses because of the lack of water. What gives when they put a stupid fish in front of farmers and push the farming business out of business. Do you realize, that if it doesn’t get better there, that our produce might be coming in from China, or somewhere else, not to mention the other things that these farmers grow?
    Turn the water back on for the farmers so they can return to make a living. GEEEZ LOUISE!

    California reels from save-the-minnow ruling

    Sep 15, 2007 12:00 PM, By Harry Cline Farm Press Editorial Staff hcline@farmpress.com

    California is shaking again, but earthquakes are not to blame this time for people reeling and rolling.

    The shaking is from knocking knees and more recently, forehead slaps of disbelief from the Californians who are responsible for delivering drinking water to 25 million of their fellow countrymen and irrigation water to three million acres of some of the most productive farmland in the world.

    Barring unprecedented heavy fall rains, 2007 will go down as one of the driest weather years on record, and was possibly made even drier by a federal district court judge trying to save endangered minnows.

    Islands are poking out of half-full reservoirs like creatures from the deep not seen for decades.

    Lakes are so low — boat launch ramps are longer than the driveway to Hugh Hefner’s Playboy mansion.

    Water contractors are as thrilled as a kid in a candy store at the sight of a lone late summer thunderhead over the Sierra Nevada. They close their eyes and wish, as they would on a shooting star, that that thunderstorm is a sign winter will come early — very, very early.

    Since January, California has been in an undisputable drought. No significant relief was expected after early spring because as the song line goes — “It never rains in Southern California.”

    All Californians could do after one of the lowest snow packs in years was wait for fall and winter to see if God would end the one-year drought that followed one of the wettest years on record, 2006. That day of reckoning is at hand, with fall just around the corner and the historical rainy season kickoff day of Thanksgiving less than three months away.

    Those knocking knees are now being accompanied by the forehead slaps of disbelief at the ruling by U.S. District Court Judge Oliver Wanger in Fresno, which could restrict water deliveries from the northern to the southern two-thirds of the state — if there is water to deliver — for six months from December until June to save an endangered minnow, the Delta smelt, a species that grows to no more than three inches and never lives longer than a year under ideal conditions.

    Wanger ruled pressure from the massive pumps in the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta (that move water from Northern California to 25 million Californians and three million acres of farmland) endangers the tiny minnow. He has given the state 60 days to come up with a better biological plan to save the smelt than what has been offered so far. In the meantime, there will be no pumping — as the smelt is in danger of being sucked into the two pumping stations operated by the federal and state governments.

    Those who want to preserve the smelt say the minnow is a benchmark for the ecological health of the Delta. It apparently has no other benefit to mankind. No one has said it is the only indicator of Delta ecological health.

    The judge’s ruling stemmed from a lawsuit filed by Natural Resources Defense Council and other so-called environmental organizations which claim the pumps are threatening the endangered species.

    Defendants, the State Water Project, the federal Central Valley Project, farmers and others, agree the smelt is endangered. However, they contend the pumps only account for 5 percent to 15 percent of the causes that are affecting the smelt population. Other factors are having greater impacts on the smelt numbers. Defendants contend loss of food supplies and the introduction of foreign plant and fish species into the Delta have dramatically altered the smelt’s environment and put it at risk. Criminal toxic chemical dumping into the Delta has killed fish. Defendants also contend sewage is impacting the health of the Delta. In addition, the lack of fish screens on pumps in the Delta is impacting the smelt.

    But Judge Wanger did not buy any of those arguments.

    In the past, the pumping has been briefly stopped, and water deliveries have also been reduced to protect fish. But the possibility of a longer shutdown is sending ripples of anxiety throughout the state.

    Although Wanger’s ruling is a one-year deal, it could have a far reaching impact in the wake of the 2007 drought. If there is no significant rain and snowfall this fall, and if that continues into the winter and even early spring, the overall water supply will not be enough to take care of Wanger’s minnow and the rest of California.

    San Joaquin Valley farmers receiving water from the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta will see their 2008 supplies cut by as much as 50 percent or a reduction in deliveries by as much as 500,000 acre-feet via Wanger’s ruling, according to some experts. This would make Wanger’s ruling one of the largest single court-ordered reductions in California water history.

    “We knew the judge was going to take away some of our water, but we were holding out hope that he would have given more time to the scientists to continue working toward a science-based solution,” said Dan Nelson, executive director of the San Luis and Delta Mendota Water Authority. The authority is a group of 32 water districts that supplies water to farmers covering more than 2 million acres.

    “Every farmer in the 3 million acres receiving water through the Delta pumps, and 25 million residents in the Bay and Los Angeles, is at immediate risk resulting from less water flowing to farms, homes and businesses next year,” Nelson added.

    Reservoirs in the two water systems are dramatically low, most at half of less of capacity now, far below the average for this time of year. The refilling process must begin this fall either from rainfall or releases upstream.

    For example, there are less than 500,000 acre feet in the San Luis Reservoir near Los Banos. This is about 150,000 acres feet below the average for this time of year for the reservoir with 2 million acre feet of storage capacity. The story is the same for the other major reservoirs in the system.

    “This is the most dramatic cut ever to California water supplies,” said Tim Quinn, executive director of the Association of California Water Agencies, which represents more than 400 agencies delivering 90 percent of the state’s water. “It is the most significant decision ever made in the implementation of either the state or federal Endangered Species Act. It is the biggest impact anywhere, nationwide.”

    Jerry Johns, deputy director of the California Department of Water Resources, said the ruling was not as severe as environmentalists wanted, but it was harsh. It will make it difficult to move sold and bought water around the state if the Delta pumps are shut down. Selling and buying water has become far more common in recent years because of a growing population and dwindling water supplies due to weather or changing environmental laws which takes water from people for environmental uses. Much of this water is bought from Northern California, above the Delta pumps.

    Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger called the judge’s decision “further proof that our water system is broken, unreliable and in crisis … a devastating blow to our water system and state economy.” He used the decision to once again sell his proposed $5.9 billion comprehensive water plan, which includes $1 billion for Delta restoration and a new system for diverting around the Delta.

    Urban water agencies in both the Bay Area and Southern California warned that because of Wanger’s ruling that there could be water rationing.

    “Even though the judge’s ruling applies only to next year, it is still devastating news for our farmers,” Nelson said. “Thousands of acres of orchard and vine crops that represent a long-term investment by farmers are in jeopardy. What happens if a farmer is not able to secure a water source to irrigate his crops? It is possible that these crops could dry up and die.”

    Annual water requirements for permanent crops, including almonds, grapes, pistachios and others in the CVP south of Delta farming region total 500,000 acre-feet or more. The court-mandated reduction in CVP deliveries to farmers means less water for other crops such as lettuce, tomatoes and many other fruit and vegetable crops. Those crops could potentially be fallowed to meet the water needs of permanent crops. A similar scenario would be felt in the entire south of Delta CVP service area.

    Nelson explained that the effects of taking water away from the farmers will also be felt in the rural communities throughout the San Joaquin Valley West Side.

    “Unemployment will go up if farming is cut back because of a lack of water,” he said.

    A U.S. Census Bureau study recently listed Fresno, Tulare, Kings, Kern, Merced and Madera as counties with the highest percentage of residents living below the poverty line in California.

    “It’s ironic and tragic that on the heels of this study that these water cutbacks are taking place,” insisted Nelson. “These rural communities rely on their local farms for their financial survival.

    “Any cut in the irrigation supply to these farms will continue to damage these communities and they simply can’t afford it.”

    The environmental organizations filing the earlier suit ask for a reduction in 2008 deliveries to as low as zero percent. Other plans submitted by state and federal agencies that oversee the pumping operations had suggested deliveries from 5 percent to 55 percent of contracts.

    “In the end, California’s rural communities lose, farmers lose and the Delta smelt loses because science pointing to the real problems affecting the smelt populations is being ignored,” claimed B.J. Miller, a consulting engineer who has studied the Delta for years.
    Get Copyright Clearance

    • Hi Judy,

      Sean Hannity broadcast from there last night. He had a special “The Valley That Hope Forgot” or something like that. I didn’t get to see the whole show, but what I did see was pretty good.

      • Hi Dee

        That’s where I got the idea to put this up from. I thought this is just as important as everything else is. After all, they are taking these farmers lively hood away from them, over some stupid fish. It’s not like these fish are really that important, at least I don’t think so anyway.

        That’s like up here, they always try and kill the pike fish because they do damage to the trout, and every time they kill these pike, guess what? They keep coming back, so why bother. But farmers are a whole different story, and I guess these bureaucrats don’t get. Where do these people think their food comes from? What a bunch of doofuses.

        Hope your day is going well.

        Judy

    • Ah, Federal Judges and Hippie Kalifornia Environmentalists. Ya’ gotta love ’em!!

      • Not just the California environmentalists Kent, they’re everywhere, including here. They want to thin out the forest up in Tahoe, because of deadly bugs that are infesting these trees, which they are dying from, make it somewhat a little better because of fires that happen, just do maintenance in the forest, but all these tree huggers won’t let them. Quit listening to the environmental whacko’s and let them do the job that needs to be done.

    • Thank God for the Electoral College, of we would all be N.Y., Boston and San Francisco

    • This happened in the Klamath River Valley in NorCal a couple of years ago. They cut the farmers off in early summer after the fields had been planted. Their water contracts meant nothing (just like bon holders at GM). Water denied crops die before appeals can be heard. The farmers can insure for natural crop losses but not stupidity. We faced the prospect of rationing here in NorCal this spring but got some needed late spring rains. Part of the problem is that LA and the south have rights to the water so it must be shipped south. We can have shortages and rationing here while they are wasting water on lawns and fountains down there. So we add to the problem by giving rights to the fish. Until the housing bust, there was large scale construciton in the Sacramento Valley and foothills. Many of the new houses included extensive landscaping and lawns. To get water for this, they attempted to raise water rates on small farmers in the foothills. That move was defeated but is is only a matter of time until it happpens. Than the small farmers will be driven out of business and there will be more water and land for development.

  30. Wow.. it’s 3:44 and the first time I’ve really had any time to check and nobody addressed anything toward me.. I’m just not feeling the love, I guess.

    But, in the spirit of roasting nuts over an open fire, I present you all with the following youTube link:

    Hope everyone’s having a happy Friday!

    • Hi Mathius — One good pitch deserves another! May Billy Mays rest in peace.

      I’ve been waiting for you to annouce that the project is complete, that you singlehandledly saved it from disaster but were graciously allowing your co-workers the credit. Hope all is well and Emilius still loves you. c

      • Project’s going into overtime Monday. I’ve done the best I can, so let’s hope..

        As for Emilius, I assume she still loves me, but I haven’t seen much of her for last week.. maybe I’ll be able to confirm that this weekend?

        As for saving the day, absolutely. I’m doing some awesome things over here and I have no intention of sharing the credit whatsoever. That is, unless it goes awry – then everyone gets credit 🙂

    • Guess it’s not pick on Mathius day today. Enjoy.

    • Hehehehehe,

      Matt,

      OH YEAH!
      Kool-Aids here
      bring ya fun
      Kool-Aids got
      thirst on the run
      get a big wide happy
      ear to ear
      Kool-Aid smile

      I will admit you are not really deserving, being one of the more reasonable liberals to post here, a lot more fun as well. TGIF

      • I thought you said the other day that the most koolaid was bought in red states… I never touch the stuff myself. Red Bull is my poison.

    • I knew POTUS got that sales pitch from someone else…ScamWoW!

    • Oh, and for anyone out there who knows what it means, L’Shana Tovah!

  31. Just in case anyone thinks I am too rough on “liberals” while going easy on “conservatives”, read my Examiner column today: “Conservatives, lend me an ear- and an open mind

  32. Sorry USW…Off topic but I think important for later discussion:

    VIENNA — Overriding Western objections, a 150-nation nuclear conference on Friday passed a resolution directly criticizing Israel and its atomic program for the first time in 18 years. Iran hailed the vote as a “glorious moment.”

    The result was a setback not only for Israel but also for the United States and other backers of the Jewish state, which had lobbied for 18 years of past practice — debate on the issue without a vote. It also reflected building tensions between Israel and its backers and Islamic nations, backed by developing countries.

    Of delegations present at the International Atomic Energy Agency meeting Friday, 49 voted for the resolution. Forty-five were against and 16 abstained from endorsing or rejecting the document, which “expresses concern about the Israeli nuclear capabilities,” and links it to “concern about the threat posed by the proliferation of nuclear weapons for the security and stability of the Middle East.”

    Sort of ironic, don’t you think, that there is no condemnation of Iran and Russia has said that they will not discuss the Iranian Nuclear program as a result of dropping the missile shield. Way to go Obama.

    • Condemn Iran … for what?

      Iran does not have any nukes
      Israel does.

      Iran is signatory to the NPT.
      Israel is not.

      Under the NPT, Iran has the sovereign right to use nuclear energy. It has the treaty right to ask for assistance from any nuclear armed nation. Iran asked Russia -also a signatory to the NPT- for such aid.

      The condemnation is on Israel for 1) not signing the NPT and 2) having produced nuclear weapons.

      Sounds fair to me.

      • Article IV

        1. Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with Articles I and II of this Treaty.

        2. All the Parties to the Treaty undertake to facilitate, and have the right to participate in, the fullest possible exchange of equipment, materials and scientific and technological information for the peaceful uses of nuclear energy. Parties to the Treaty in a position to do so shall also co-operate in contributing alone or together with other States or international organizations to the further development of the applications of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, especially in the territories of non-nuclear-weapon States Party to the Treaty, with due consideration for the needs of the developing areas of the world.

      • If I was Israel and was surrounded by my enemies-I would have nukes and nobody would take them from me-unless it was out of my dead hands.

        • Which is why, in the end, Israel will be destroyed.

          By acts of war, they have pushed the Palestinians out of their own nation.

          They are duplicitous in their foreign affairs.

          They have succeeded militarily without nuclear weapons.

          By obtaining nuclear weapons, they are a direct threat to every nation in the entire region.

          They are -purposely- making enemies.

          • I don’t really care how Israel came about getting THEIR LAND-history is full of people taking land through war, and the argument on who truly should own all these lands can go on forever-the point is they were given this land and they have fought for this land and it is their land-things are what they are -it is impossible to change the past and if Israel gave up their nukes all their enemies would destroy them.

            • You make a claim, yet – based on “what?”

              They have the largest army – they’re only threat is via Syria, and that is so improbable as to be totally discounted.

              “Which enemies do you speak????”

            • And of course you careless on how “they got THEIR land”…..

              …but it does matter. People matter. They Palestinians matter. The blindness you offer is the very reason the region remains in turmoil.

              Until America wakes up, and recognizes the Palestinians rights – there will be no peace in the Middle East until Israel is destroyed.

              That will not benefit anyone.

              • Sabra & Shatila Massacre:

                On Wednesday 15 September, the day after the assassination of Israeli-allied Phalangist militia leader and Lebanese President-elect Bashir Gemayel, the Israeli army occupied West Beirut, “encircling and sealing” the camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were inhabited by Lebanese and Palestinian civilians.

                By mid-day on 15 September 1982, the refugee camps were entirely surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers, who installed checkpoints at strategic locations and crossroads around the camps in order to monitor the entry or exit of any person.

                During the late afternoon and evening of that day, the camps were shelled.

                Around mid-day on Thursday 16 September 1982, a unit of approximately 150 Israeli-allied Phalangists entered the first camp. For the next 40 hours members of the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500.

                The victims and survivors of the massacres have never been deemed entitled to a formal investigation of the tragedy, since Israel’s Kahan Commission did not have a judicial mandate and was not backed up by legal force.

                The United Nations Security Council condemned the massacre with Resolution 521 (19 September 1982). This condemnation was followed by a 16 December 1982 General Assembly resolution qualifying the massacre as an “act of genocide.”

              • http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

                I don’t know how much of this is true but the killing has happened on both sides for years and some how it needs to stop-but Israel protecting themselves from there enemies is advisable.

              • Please tell me what you think will satisfy the Palestinians-what can Israel offer the Palestinians that will satisfy them. What are their rights per BF

              • The Oslo Accords, officially called the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements[1] or Declaration of Principles (DOP) was a milestone in the Palestinian – Israeli conflict.

                It was the first direct, face-to-face agreement between Israel and political representatives of Palestinians. It was intended to be a framework for the future relations between Israel and the Palestinians, when all outstanding final status issues between the two sides would be addressed and resolved in one agreement.

                The Accords were wrapped-up in Oslo, Norway on 20 August 1993, and subsequently officially signed at a public ceremony in Washington D.C. on 13 September 1993 in the presence of Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) chairman Yasser Arafat, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and U.S. President Bill Clinton, with Mahmoud Abbas signing for the Palestine Liberation Organization, foreign Minister Shimon Peres for the State of Israel, Secretary of State Warren Christopher for the United States and foreign minister Andrei Kozyrev for Russia.

                The Oslo Accords were a framework for the future relations between the two parties. The Accords provided for the creation of a Palestinian National Authority (PNA). The Palestinian Authority would have responsibility for the administration of the territory under its control. The Accords also called for the withdrawal of the Israel Defense Forces from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

                Israel has -to date- failed to abide the the Accord – instead in direct contradiction – continued to build settlements in the West Bank and failed to withdraw the IDF.

                Obvious it is not a problem of the Palestinians that Israel has failed in its obligations

              • Hope that helps, V. Holland

              • It was anticipated that this arrangement would last for a five-year interim period during which a permanent agreement would be negotiated (beginning no later than May 1996). Permanent issues such as Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees, Israeli settlements, security and borders were deliberately left to be decided at a later stage. Interim self-government was to be granted by Israel in phases.

                Support for the Accords, of the concessions made and the process were not free from criticism. The repeated public posturing of all sides has discredited the process, and put the possibility of achieving peace into question.

                Further strain was put on the process after Hamas won 2006 Palestinian elections and wrested military control from the PNA in Gaza in 2007. Although it offered Israel a number of long term ceasefires, Hamas has repeatedly refused to recognize Israel,[2] to renounce violence, or accept agreements previously made by the Palestinian Authority.

              • Sorry, I didn’t write this-it is the rest of Wiki-you posted.

              • Is there a reason you are a dogmatic supporter of Israel, V.?

                Just want to understand your position….

              • Reply at bottom of page

              • BF,

                Are you saying that there will be peace with the Islamic world when Isreal is finally destroyed?

              • No, there will be peace in the Middle East when Israel decides to respect its neighbors.

                If it chose not to, it will -as a nation- cease to exist within 50 years.

              • Consider, Cindy.

                Israel has alienated the entire region.

                It has no friends in Europe.

                It has no friends in Asia.

                It has no friends in Africa.

                It has no friends in the Middle East.

                It has no friends in Latin America.

                It’s only friends are Somoa and the USA.

                Somoa cannot support Israel.

                USA will not be able to support Israel very soon.

                Who’s left?

              • I understand that Israal is running out of friends. That wasn’t my question. What I’m asking is: When Israel is destroyed and no longer exists, will the Islamic world be at peace with the non muslims? Islam will have the postage stamp sized piece of of dirt now called Israel. When Islam has than that, will it be satisfied?

              • Islam will be at peace with non-muslims when the non-muslims are at peace with them.

          • BF said “Which is why, in the end, Israel will be destroyed.” Then you said “They have the largest army – they’re only threat is via Syria, and that is so improbable as to be totally discounted.”
            My question is if Israel has no enemies around her who will “destroy her”? Sorry I am confused.

            • Israel is only sustained by the billions of dollars of aid from the USA – Israel is USA #1 recipient of foreign aid….

              When that aid ends – and it will – as happened to all the Soviet satellites at the fall of the USSR, so will happen to Israel – and in her current attitude, is unsustainable.

              To survive, she needs her will need neighbors – and Israel has made the all her enemies.

        • And I’m always confused by the statement “surrounded by their enemies”.

          Surrounded by who?

          Egypt – they have a peace treaty.

          Jordon – they have diplomatic relations and even in the Yom Kipper war, Jordon did not attack.

          Syria and Lebanon to the North – hardly constitutes “surrounded”.

          • And of those two, Lebanon is of no threat whatsoever.

            That leaves Syria – and Syria is no match at all.

            Syria couldn’t even respond to a direct act of war by Israel bombing Syrian territory.

        • V.HOLLAND, I AGREE WITH YOU, I DO DISAGREE WITH BLACK FLAG, HOPE THIS IS ALLOWED. I AM A MEMBER OF AN AMERICAN ORGANIZATION WHO HELPS ISRAEL, CUFI, AND I AM PROUD OF IT. THE LORD GAVE THIS LAND TO THE JEWS CENTURIES AGO, THE ARABS WHICH ARE PALESTINANS, WERE WELCOMED IN THE INITIAL SETTLING OF THE LAND, BUT THEY REFUSED AND HAVE CONTINUES KILLING CITIZENS, ALSO THE JEWS ARE KILLING THEIR ENEMIES WHO BOMB MISSILES AT THEM DAILY, SHOOTING CHILDREN ON BOTH SIDES, BUT I AM GOING BY WHAT I READ IN MY INSTRUCTION BOOK: I WILL BLESS THEM THAT BLESS YOU, AND I WILL CURSE THEM THAT CURSE YOU. GOD SPEAKING THRU HIS WORD, SO, MANY AMERICANS OF NOT JEWISH ANCESTRY ARE TRYING TO BLESS THE JEWS, I AM TRYING, A VETERAN OF WW2, MARINE CORP.S FEMALE OLD, POOR, BUT JESUS CHRIST CAME FROM THEIR ANCESTRY AND I WILL DO ALL I CAN IN MY FEEBLE WAY TO PRAISE HIM, AND LOVE MY LORD.

          • I’m sure it is allowed to disagree with BF, actually I think he is used to it 🙂

            May the Good Lord Bless and Keep us all!

          • I always find it amusing that Christians blindly support Judaism – which as a religion denies Christ and therefore denies Christianity as a religion and that Christians rage against Islam whose roots derive from Christianity.

            Amazing how powerful propaganda can be…

            • Hey Black Flag,

              I dont think Christians blindly support Judaism. I think they realize that God is testing the Jews and followers of Judaism as a punishment for breaking their bond with God. They are purposely blinded that their Messiah has already come and will realize it all at once during the 2nd coming. I feel they will be reunited at that time as God always loved them just that he held them to harder tests.

              Islams roots derive from Christianity?
              I might be mistaken, but i thought Islam derived from the pagan moon god allah.. please explain.

              Why did Israel break the Oslo accord and start building and not withdraw? Did the muslims break the treaty first by breaking the cease fire?

              these might be dumb questions, but i have to ask

          • Goldie

            Of course it is allowed!

            I’m not the government – free speech and all – I would never dream of denying it (and I couldn’t, this is USWep’s site not mine – though someday’s it can be hard to tell that 🙂 )

  33. Stuck in Ohio says:

    Good Afternoon everyone. I read this site almost daily,but have never posted on a subject, but to this time.

    USW-this is one of the best,concise explanation of ACORN and it’s history that I have seen put together. I have forwarded it to many of my friends and have encouraged them to start reading your blog.

    I did the same with your recent discussion on the czars.

    Keep up the good work.

  34. This is what we have to look forward too in the upcoming generation.

    College Park, Md. — If a law had the potential to directly affect your life while costing the nation a smidge less than a trillion dollars, would you pay attention? Of course.

    Then why are college kids oblivious to the details of President Obama’s push to reform health care?

    After attending Thursday’s health care rally at the University of Maryland, the student attendees generally were enthralled with being in the presence of the president — and could have seemingly cared less about what he was talking about.

    Sure, the president gave his pitch to the friendly crowd on the liberal campus. He stressed the notion that under his plan, young adults would be able to stay on their parents’ health insurance plan until age 26 (maybe because, as my friend joked, there won’t be any jobs available for graduates in the near future…). And he dismissed opponents’ arguments that his plan would add to the debt, saying “most of this plan can be paid for by finding savings within the existing health care system.”

    But as I walked around soliciting students’ opinions of Obama’s health plan, few could explain in detail specific reasons why they liked it or why it was a necessary reform even though they’re at the heart of 18 to 29 demographic, which polls show is the most supportive group of the legislation.

    Even fewer students could describe details of the public option proposal– despite the fact that they had vehemently cheered for just that minutes before.

    “The bill seems so complicated, I don’t even want to try to figure it out,” said Mike Moore. The University of Maryland junior government and politics major added that his statistics class is more than enough decoding for one day.

    Now don’t get me wrong: there were some students who understood the plan, such as Michelle McGrain. “My mom’s in the health care field, so she’s seen the problems firsthand,” said the junior University of Maryland student. “While Obama’s plan isn’t perfect, from what I’ve see, it’s a start.”

    But students like Michelle were few and far between.

    And experts say our generation is effectively getting screwed by the bill, as we’re being forced to buy insurance even though we’re relatively healthy, to subsidize older Americans’ plans.

    “Young people are probably one of the groups that’s going to come out the worst on this,” Michael Tanner, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, told the Los Angeles Times. “They’re going to pay more in the short term because they’re going to have to go out and buy health insurance. And they’re going to pay more in the long term.”

    Despite our naiveté, I was impressed by the steps Obama is taking to include college students in the discussion.

    According to the Department of Health and Human Services, 17 percent of college students do not have insurance. Some universities, currently 22 percent, including the University of Maryland, have enacted rules requiring mandatory health insurance for all incoming freshman– a fact Obama discussed in his speech. And by including the provision that college students’ coverage will extended beyond graduation, he has shown that he is committed to improving our situation.

    But it was obvious that students and other guests at today’s rally weren’t interested in seeing a health care speech, rather, they were more interested in positioning themselves for that elusive presidential handshake.

  35. Here some more good news.

    WASHINGTON — Forty-two states lost jobs last month, up from 29 in July, with the biggest net payroll cuts coming in Texas, Michigan, Georgia and Ohio.

    The Labor Department also reported Friday that 27 states saw their unemployment rates increase in August, and 14 states and Washington D.C., reported unemployment rates of 10 percent or above.

    The report shows jobs remain scarce even as most analysts believe the economy is pulling out of the worst recession since the 1930s. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said earlier this week that the recovery isn’t likely to be rapid enough to reduce unemployment for some time.

    The jobless rate nationwide is expected to peak above 10 percent next year, from its current 9.7 percent.

    “You are seeing the pace of job losses slow a little bit,” said Mike Lynch, a regional economist at IHS Global Insight. But states “are not out of the woods yet.”

    The United States lost 216,000 jobs in August, the department said earlier this month, down from 276,000 in July. Employers have eliminated 6.9 million jobs since the recession began in December 2007.

    Texas lost 62,200 jobs as its unemployment rate rose to 8 percent in August for the first time in 22 years. The state’s leisure, construction and manufacturing industries were hardest hit, losing 35,500 jobs.

    Michigan saw 42,900 jobs disappear, including 25,000 in manufacturing, as the state continued to suffer along with its struggling auto industry.

    Michigan’s unemployment rate rose to 15.2 percent, the highest in the nation. When its jobless rate topped 15 percent in June it was the first time any state surpassed that mark since 1984.

    Most economists project Michigan’s jobless rate will continue to rise. The University of Michigan estimates it will average 15.8 percent in 2010.

    Nevada has the second-highest rate at 13.2 percent, followed by Rhode Island at 12.8 percent and California and Oregon at 12.2 percent each.

    The jobless rates in California, Nevada and Rhode Island were the highest on records dating to 1976. California and Nevada have been slammed by the housing bust, while Rhode Island has lost thousands of manufacturing and government jobs in the past year.

    Georgia and Ohio reported the third and fourth-highest job losses, respectively, but their unemployment rates both fell as many of the unemployed dropped out of the work force. Once unemployed people stop looking for work — some, for example, may return to school — they are no longer included in the jobless rate.

    The four states with the largest drops in their unemployment rates — Indiana, Colorado, Kansas and Virginia — experienced similar trends: thousands of jobless workers gave up on their searches and left the work force. None of those states actually added any jobs, according to a survey of employers.

    Colorado state officials, however, noted that a separate survey of households found the number of residents who said they have jobs increased by 4,900 to 2.49 million.

    “This improvement is encouraging news,” said Donald Mares, executive director of Colorado’s Department of Labor and Employment. While “some ups and downs” are likely over the next several months, “employment appears to be stabilizing,” he said.

    Still, only eight states added jobs in August on a seasonally adjusted basis, according to employer surveys used by the U.S. Labor Department. North Carolina added the most, with a gain of 7,000, followed by Montana with 5,100 and West Virginia with 2,800.

    The biggest gains in North Carolina and Montana were in government jobs, while West Virginia saw the most improvement in education and health services.

    New Jersey added 800 jobs, but its jobless rate jumped to 9.7 percent, the highest in 33 years, from 9.3 percent. The gains there were in transportation and utilities, as well as professional and business services, chiefly because of the hiring of temporary service workers.

    “When you see temp firm hirings going up, that’s certainly a positive sign,” New Jersey Labor Commissioner David J. Socolow said. Companies usually hire temporary workers before they add permanent ones.

    North Dakota reported the lowest unemployment rate in August, at 4.3 percent, followed by South Dakota with 4.9 percent and Nebraska at 5 percent.

    North Dakota has benefited from a healthy oil sector, and all three states are helped by relatively strong agriculture economies.

  36. Totally off topic-but I had never heard about this before. Worried about many things when having surgery but not this.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,551361,00.html

  37. I thought Friday could end with a funny.

    __________________________________________________

    Hell getting Old !

    OLD people have problems that you haven’t

    even considered yet!

    An 85-year-old man was requested by his

    Doctor for a sperm count as part of his physical

    exam.

    The doctor gave the man a jar and said, ‘Take

    this jar home and bring back a semen sample
    tomorrow.’

    The next day the 85-year-old man reappeared
    at the doctor’s office and gave him the jar,
    which was as clean and empty as on the previous day.

    The doctor asked what happend and the man

    explained, ‘Well, doc, it’s like this–first I tried
    with my right hand, but nothing. Then I tried
    with my left hand, but still nothing.

    ‘Then I asked my wife for help. She tried with
    her right hand, then with her left, still nothing.
    She tried with her mouth, first with the teeth in,
    then with her teeth out, still nothing.

    ‘We even called up Arleen, the lady next door
    and she tried too, first with both hands, then an
    armpit, and she even tried squeezin’ it between
    her knees, but still nothing.’

    The doctor was shocked! ‘You asked your
    neighbor?’

    The old man replied, ‘Yep, none of us could get
    the jar open.’

  38. Richmond Spitfire says:

    Hi All,

    Just saw this at Fox…Blows my Mind…

    If a sane adult wishes to do this, then more power to them…but a boy who is 12?????? And his parents are supporting it?????? Strange happenings.

    *************************************************

    Boy, 12, Preparing to Undergo Sex Change Operation
    Friday, September 18, 2009

    A 12-year-old boy from England, who showed up to school as a girl, is believed to be the youngest person in the country preparing to undergo a sex change operation.

    The boy, whose parents have legally changed his name to a girl’s, arrived to school in a dress with long hair.

    Teachers called an emergency assembly to order fellow students to treat him as female, but angry parents said that was not enough.

    They said the school should have informed them in advance so they could have prepared their children for the news.

    “Maybe we could have explained sexual politics and encouraged our kids to be more sensitive if we’d had a chance to be involved,” one mother said.

    The 12-year-old is preparing to undergo hormone treatment and surgery — and could become the world’s youngest patient to have a sex change in the coming years.

    RELATED: An interview with the world’s leading sex change surgeon.

    The Sun knows his identity but will not reveal it, in order to protect the child’s privacy.

    “We are committed to ensuring the very best for our child,” the boy’s mother told the newspaper Thursday night. “We are working with other agencies to ensure our child’s welfare is protected.”

    The 1,000-student school, in southern England, has given the boy a separate bathroom and changing room.

    Earlier this year, Kim Petras from Cologne, Germany, who was born Tim, became the world’s youngest person to undergo sexual reassignment surgery. She had the operation just days after turning 16.

    Click here to read more from The Sun.

    • RS – Saw the article too and I was wondering if this child had yet went through puberty. Wouldn’t you think you’d want to wait ’til that was completely over before deciding on something this drastic?

  39. well, when the environmentalists have their way, the planet will be empty of humans, including them, and i feel i must say: God gave man dominion over all fish, fowl, all creeping things, animals to do as needed. he was fair, animals are wonderful and i have 3 dogs that tell me that each day. But i don’t think any abuse, or nasty stuff to the animals, just kill as need be. Muslims behead journalist Daniel Pearl, not too much made of that. The farmers have kids to feed, clothe and they do grow great food for us. if we get our food from Mexico or China who knows what it was grown in, what chemicals added, my son is a professional firefighter, management, and they have to try to keep all happy, the treehuggers as you say and the farmers, but water is so necessary and food for the entire nation. Lived in California for 48 years, people have moved to areas where they should not build, but each person has a choice, Obey God, leave all consequences to Him. If we did that, follow his instruction book, the Bible, think our problems would not be so huge. But this person in Oval Office, is an illegal Muslim-american and I feel he should give up, but my son says he won’t He has too much power and control to just give up. Only the Lord knows just what will happen, I for one want him gone and the Constitution obeyed, if Pelosi is so tearful, she should visit the Hope Valley, San Joaquin Valley and try to comfort all the little kids as she was so admired on TV when she took over the House, God Bless American, She really needs blessings from all

  40. questions about today’s topic, that noone has asked. Five cities, five different people, same result. When does someone ask, what does ACORN have to gain by doing what they did? There actions were immoral, to any American, but yet they all acted alike, although in different cities and coasts. There is a common path, with a common goal, what is that goal?

    G!

  41. Revolution is Coming to America!!

    It could be either side that starts it, but the country is becoming more divided, not less. Politicians (both parties) receive corporate campaign donations. Well, corporations have board of directors who are foreigners so we actually have foreigners, via campaign contributions, deciding America’s political campaigns & future. Both sides are guilty.
    I also read the underground book & it was great!! Read it & see how a small town (maybe your town) stands up to decade career politicians & Federal tyranny & start the 2nd American Revolution. I bought 2 for my friends. It changed my outlook on what is really happening in America.

    This may be the only time in your life that you can ‘make your history & leave a legacy for your grandchildren’. Take a stand and step into the streets as the book shows!

    (booksbyoliver.com)

  42. Hope everyone has a great weekend-Gman-this is my mantra. V

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4120428409084271072#docid=-8471159307822368166

  43. Or if you prefer-this artist-I love them both.

  44. ONE THING I WANT TO SAY, ALL POSTS, MOSTLY AND NEW REPORTS SAY HE IS FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN, HE IS NOT AFRICAN HE IS MUSLIM-AMERICAN, THE FIRST AND HOPEFULLY THE LAST, JUST BECAUSE HE IS DARK IN COLOR DOES NOT MEAN HE IS FROM AFRICAN HERITEGE, CHECK A PICTURE OF HIS FATHER, BLACK, FROM INDONESIA, HIS MOTHER WHITE FROM NEBRASKA (I THINK) THE TWO MADE HIM A LIGHT-SKINNED MAN, BUT NOT FROM AFRICAN, HE IS ABOUT .8% AFRICAN BY HIS FATHER.

  45. Alert in Michigan

    “We are in a depression and slight deflation – because banks are not relending the money people have paid to pay of old loans. This money is being stuffed into the Reserves, and thus removed from the economy. HoweverIt has not been de-created! It sits as a horrible potential to be reintroduced back into the economy instantly – without any FED or government involvement.” Thank you for taking time to answer my questions. I have a couple of clarifying ones, if you’d be so kind: Who would suddenly decide to instantaneously reintroduce this money? A group of banks OR someone(s) super-wealthy who could dump a bunch of money in the system for ill-intent? Or…? Is there any way for the government to de-create the fiat money they have printed?

    There is no one person with the capital of $800 billion – so, there is no ‘super-wealthy’ capable of dumping money.

    Buffet is moving OUT of the US$ but even he is a blip.

    It will be the banks – they need to pay wages, rent, electrical bills and deposit interest – and they are losing their shirts.

    But they’d rather lose their shirts keeping the money in FED then lose their entire wardrobe by lending the the market.

    But one day – they will lend.

    Fiat – absolutely. The FED could alter or eliminate the Fractional Reserve System – instead of a 9/1 loans to reserve, they could demand 4/1 or 2/1. This would require the banks to increase reserves and/or withdraw debt out of the economy.

    The ability to increase reserves depends on the banks ability to increase deposits. This is nearly impossible if you are – at the same time – trying to REDUCE the amount of currency; there would be no money to deposit.

    Thus, it would be debt destruction. They would be forced to recall loans – which they would evaporate back into cyberspace where they came from…..

    But – what would that do the economy?

    A depression that would probably destroy the USA – 50%, 75% unemployment while prices for goods would be beyond the means of any but the most rich.

    No government programs – nada. Military barely capable of defending nothing but small cartel incursions from Mexico…

    Keynesian crackpots have take the economy to the brink of the ultimate no-win scenario. It will take a couple of generations to unravel the mess with plenty of massive pitfalls to avoid along that way of which anyone of them could destroy the Nation….

  46. BF

    Why do I support Israel? Complicated question. First of all my supporting Israel does not mean I am blind to the struggles of the Arab Palestinians. I agree that they have rights. I personally think that both the Arab and Jewish people who have lived in Palestine for many, many years have been used and manipulated by the political powers that surround them. I believe the foundation for all the things that Israel is doing now and that the Arab Palestinians are doing now are the consequence of wrongs done to both years ago.

    The amount of hate and mistrust that has developed through the years makes Israels attempts to protect herself understandable. The economic hardships of the Palestinians makes their anger understandable. I for one am not sure that it will ever be possible to stop the violence and craziness that goes on in this small but important strip of land.

    Mostly, I just believe that it’s time for the Palestinians Arabs to except that Israel has the right to exist-until they realize that there anger,even if justified, though directed at the wrong people IMO, will only mean the continued suffering of their people. I believe that if the Palestinians will quit bombing Israel, quit listening to outside sources and think about whats best for them and their children, that peace would come-I don’t believe Israel wants conflict, built up anger and fear makes them rightfully skeptical and protective. If the Palestinians would back off I believe with a little time Israel would begin to trust that they mean them no harm and then they would be able to actually have a peace agreement that would mean something.

    I have provided a link which, I feel is very eye opening, it is very long but feel free to scan some of it or all-I found the parts referring to 1920 and on, interesting.

    V

    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/

    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/israel.htm

  47. Gonna repost instead of waiting for moderation.

    BF

    Why do I support Israel? Complicated question. First of all my supporting Israel does not mean I am blind to the struggles of the Arab Palestinians. I agree that they have rights. I personally think that both the Arab and Jewish people who have lived in Palestine for many, many years have been used and manipulated by the political powers that surround them. I believe the foundation for all the things that Israel is doing now and that the Arab Palestinians are doing now are the consequence of wrongs done to both years ago.

    The amount of hate and mistrust that has developed through the years makes Israels attempts to protect herself understandable. The economic hardships of the Palestinians makes their anger understandable. I for one am not sure that it will ever be possible to stop the violence and craziness that goes on in this small but important strip of land.

    Mostly, I just believe that it’s time for the Palestinians Arabs to except that Israel has the right to exist-until they realize that there anger,even if justified, though directed at the wrong people IMO, will only mean the continued suffering of their people. I believe that if the Palestinians will quit bombing Israel, quit listening to outside sources and think about whats best for them and their children, that peace would come-I don’t believe Israel wants conflict, built up anger and fear makes them rightfully skeptical and protective. If the Palestinians would back off I believe with a little time Israel would begin to trust that they mean them no harm and then they would be able to actually have a peace agreement that would mean something.

    I have provided a link which, I feel is very eye opening, it is very long but feel free to scan some of it or all-I found the parts referring to 1920 and on, interesting.

    V

    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/

    • Thanks for posting the link. I have not finished all of it but brings up lots of things for debate. Britain was granted in 1920 by the League of Nations the Palestinian Mandate expressly for a Jewish homeland and that mandate included all of current lands occupied by the Palestinians, Israelis and Jordaninans. At the time, this entire land was occupied by about 600,000, mostly Arab nomads but including about 10% Jews, mostly west of the river and living in traditional Jewish cities. Britain on there own, divided the Madanted into Palestine (west of the Jordon R.) and Trans Jordan or Jordan and reduced the Jewish homeland to the area of west of the Jordan. Then Britain instead of encouraging Jewish immigration, attempted to block it an encouraged more Arabs to settle in the area. So one could argue that all the land west of the Jordan should be included in present day Israel. One could further argue that Arab claims of ancestrial lands are not valid unless they predate 1920. The Arab population of the area made no attempt to create a nation state as Jordan did. The Jews did and did defend that in multiple wars thus can claim the land by right of conquest (the oldest argument in the book).

      • Yes, such “Right to Genocide” is a common excuse of ‘civilized nations’, isn’t it T-Ray?

        • What genocide? The only ones talking about genocide are the Arabs. They attempted it in 1948. Read what Kent linked. The land was sparsely settled by both Jews and Arabs prior to 1920. Jewish cities existed in the area although the Jewish population was only about 50K. Jews helped significantly in defeating the Turks as much if not more so than the Arabs. The British, in their quest for colonial power, attempted to create a Pan-Arabia and thus discouraged and limited Jewish immigration and encouraged Arab immigration. This was in contradiction of their Mandate from the LoN. Many of the Arabs that did immigrate came to work for the Jews that were bring industry to the region. It was the British that encouraged the Arabs to attack the flegling state of Israel in 1948. It was the Arabs who encouraged the voluntary departure of displaced “Palestinian” refugees. Thus about 68% of the refugees left Israel voluntarily. They abandoned their homes of one generation. After the ’48 war, it was the neighboring Arab countries that encouraged them not to return and to remain refugees as bargaining chips. They were used by their own people. A large per centage of these people had no more ancestrial claims to the land than did the immigrant Jews. The true state of Palestine is Jordan since the original 1920 Jewish Mandate was to include Jordan as well. Jordan was created by and declared Arab by the British.

          While the US involvement in the region is comlex, it seems obvious that our initial involvement with Israel was to prevent another genocide as was done in Europe. If we were merely after oil, we would not complicate the issue by supporting the existance of Israel. The anti-semitism that the British started and encouraged in the region has become ingrained after 4 generations of fighting.

          The Arab countries have more than enough land and resources to resettle the refugees. It is a failure of the “benevolent” Muslim religion that this has not been done. It is a success of the “violent” Mulsim religion that this has not been done.

          • Sir, you have terrible historical understanding.

            1) Whether a land is sparsely settled or not is not relevant.

            2) As already presented, most of the Jews left Palestine and immigrated to Europe and mostly Russia.

            3) I agree regarding British mismanagement – but do explain how a people immigrate to the land they already are on? How do Arabs immigrate to the Middle East when they already lived there?

            4)68% went ‘voluntarily’? Are you joking? It is not voluntarily when you are being chased by the Haganah. That’s like saying the Russians who retreated in the face of the Nazi’s voluntarily abandoned their land!

            5) You have a bizarre understanding of 1948.

            6) “it seems obvious that our initial involvement with Israel was to prevent another genocide as was done in Europe.”

            Considering that the Arabs and Jews lived together for 1000 years, this claim of yours is bizarre.

            7) “If we were merely after oil, we would not complicate the issue by supporting the existance of Israel.”

            I wrote a month ago regarding the use of Israel and Iran as the base of American influence in the Middle east. With the loss of Iran, Israel became the sole – thus core – location to further American influence.

            8)”The Arab countries have more than enough land and resources to resettle the refugees.”

            So if the Chinese invade, and ethnic cleanse the West Coast, you’re fine with the claim that would be ok, since there is lots of land and resources for those Americans to move to…. consistency, sir!

            9)”It is a failure of the “benevolent” Muslim religion that this has not been done.”

            And if they didn’t like that, it would be a failure of Christian love – right? Consistency, sir!

            • 1) Then we should give the southwest back to Mexico and the remainder to the Indians and leave. Israel claimed the land by right of conquest. Not pretty but no different than us. There was no national government there at the time. Yes prior to 1920 the land was occupied by 550K Arabs (mostly nomads) and 50K Jews (in cities). The immigration began bringing a few hudred thousand of each. There would have been more Jews except for the interference of Britain. How is it strictly Arab land when there was no nation state and when Jews were already in residence although in minority at the time? Or maybe we should be calling Turkish land as it was ruled by the Turks prior to 1918.

              2) Did the Jews originally leave Palestine voluntarily or were they too driven out by the Arabs.

              3) I said people with claims prior to 1920 had legitimate claims. All others were immigrants including Arabs. The Mandate started in 1920 not 1948. Had Britain followed through on her promises to the LoN, there would have been far fewer Jews for Hitler to slaughter.

              4) I am not a student of ME history. The link Kent posted was quite definitive on the fact that 68% of the refugees left voluntarily at the behest of the Arab governments attacking Israel at the time. The remainder were driven out by the Jews which was also acknowledged. If you have a more definitive, source please post it. These same Arab governments on losing the war then convinced these refugees to stay in the squalid camps thus causing the festering hatred that now exists.

              5) Please recommend a different unbiased source.

              6) Yes they lived together peacefully and might have continued that way without the interference of Britain. The professed goal of the Palestinians and many other Arabs including Iran is extermination of Israel. That is genocide. Do we not have an obligation to prevent that. I do not hear Israel professing the extermination of Arabs in Gaza or the West Bank.

              7) Our involvement in the greater ME is complex and based on oil and cold war diplomacy and strategy. It is far too complex for me to sort out.

              8) Are there not Arabs living peacefully in current day Israel? No doubt there was evil perpetruated on both sides. At some point though you have to call for an end to the violence and forget the past.

              9) Have not Palestinians emigrated to the US? Refugees do not stay in camps for 60 years. There are no refugee camps left from WWII and have not been for decades. Why do they persist in the ME except for political reasons?

  48. BF,

    What will it take for non-muslims to appease Islam?

    • Stop bombing and invading them and leave them alone.

      Stop supporting the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their own land.

    • Worldwide conversion to Islam. While the direct neighbors of Isreal have a right to be involved in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, why are the distant Muslim countries so involved? What impact does Palestine have on Iran? The Iranians are Persian not Arab. The only reason I can see is the political trick of creating an external enemy to build internal cohesion. If Israel goes away, they will find another whipping boy.

      Actually, what will stop much of the trouble in the Middle East will be the decline of the oil industry. When the oil runs out, the troubles will stop. So problems will continue for a few more decades. We could help this if we would drill for our own oil thus adding to supply while at the same time reducing the flow of dollars to the region and decreasing its strategic importance to us. This brings up the DOE which should be added to BF’s list of failed government agencies. They were created 30 some years ago to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

      • T-Ray,

        You complain about distance – where do, then, justify the USA being in involved at all???

        The biggest challenge the USA has in international affairs is the two-faced, hypocritical and duplicitous dealings of America.

        To be perfectly clear on Iran, by policy (and repeatedly stated as such, is for an agreement between all parties without the machinations of any other. Iran has stated – whatever the agreement between Palestine and Israel be, will be.

        Iran is the largest and most influential nation in the Middle East – and respecting that will go along way in making peace sustainable in the region.

        Hold no hope for running out of oil…

        • While the Middle East was strategic in times past because it was at the juncture of 3 great continents, it now longer is important except for the presence of oil. If we were to reduce or eliminate our need for that oil, then their importance to us (US) would be zip. China, India, and Euorpe might think otherwise. They then could police the area.

          I do not see why Iran is so involved in the P-I conflict other than as a way to control their own people. The same goes for several other countries in the Arab world. I have heard the arguments from the Arab world for many years that they hate us because of our stand on Israel. I have never accepted that argument. I think it is a ruse. I think the Arab nations have been fed the Muslim line that once a Muslim territory always a Muslim territory. The Muslim world harbors too many grudges and needs to put their history behind them.

          I think we would all be happy if Israel and the Palestinians would work out their differences and leave the rest of the world out of it.

          • If we were to reduce or eliminate our need for that oil, then their importance to us (US) would be zip. China, India, and Euorpe might think otherwise. They then could police the area.

            Reducing dependence on Arab oil is a pipe dream – unless you accept a drop in your standard of living to be equal to 1945.

            I do not see why Iran is so involved in the P-I conflict other than as a way to control their own people.

            The question you need to ask is why is the US involved in the conflict.

            Iran lives in the region, the US does not.

            I do agree that the US involvement is a way for the US to controls its people.

            The same goes for several other countries in the Arab world. I have heard the arguments from the Arab world for many years that they hate us because of our stand on Israel. I have never accepted that argument.

            I see that.

            You can’t accept that neighbor nations watching the genocide and ethnic cleansing of a People – forcing those people into their countries – shouldn’t be involved.

            I suppose if Venezuela was ethnic cleaning Mexicans – causing Mexicans to immigrate into the USA – you’d sit back as say “it’s a ruse!

            So if you don’t agree that nations in their region should be involved, why do you believe a nation NOT in the region should be involved? Where is your consistency?

            The Muslim world harbors too many grudges and needs to put their history behind them.

            I guess that comes from being invaded by Western powers over the last 100 years – you’d get annoyed too, I think.

            I think we would all be happy if Israel and the Palestinians would work out their differences and leave the rest of the world out of it.

            Then suggest that the rest of the world – including the US – should leave them alone, right?

            • Eliminating our (US) dependence on Arab oil is not a pipe dream. We have more than enough resources to be energy independent. We have, in alphabetical order, biofuels, coal, conservation, hydro, nuclear, oil, solar electic, solar thermal, and wind at our disposal. We are being held hostage by a loud minority who are preventing the utiliziation of many of these economically and technologically viable resources.

              See my comment above about why the US is involved with Israel.

              Until the Persian Gulf War, I was unaware that we had invaded any Middle Eastern country. I will not speak for the Brits. We did interfere in Iran by backing the Shah. Our real dislike for the current Iranian government began when they invaded our embassy and held our citizens hostage.

              • Eliminating our (US) dependence on Arab oil is not a pipe dream.

                I stand by my comment.

                We have more than enough resources to be energy independent.

                You fail economics.

                It is more than mere resources – it is access to economical resources

                If you toss out Arabian Oil – and move to indegious sources, the cost will triple at a minimum.

                The costs to pay for it will reduce your standard of living.

                There is a reason US imports oil – and it is cost.

                We have, in alphabetical order, biofuels,

                False start. Biofuels take more energy to produce than they provide.

                coal, conservation, hydro, nuclear, oil, solar electic, solar thermal, and wind at our disposal. We are being held hostage by a loud minority who are preventing the utiliziation of many of these economically and technologically viable resources.

                There is possibility of progress in some of the things – HOWEVER, they all have costs and problems.

                Solar/geo/wind are all unreliable.

                Coal is not portable (imagine a coal-drive car – I can’t)

                Nuke and hydro is not portable either.

                There is a reason we use oil.

                Until the Persian Gulf War, I was unaware that we had invaded any Middle Eastern country. I will not speak for the Brits. We did interfere in Iran by backing the Shah. Our real dislike for the current Iranian government began when they invaded our embassy and held our citizens hostage.

              • The cost to drill for oil in many parts of the US is higher than the Middle East but it is below the current price of oil. It would be profitable. Note, I said we could get off Middle East oil, I did not say we would be energy independent.

                Not all biofuels have negative cost and energy values. There are some that make sense. Corn is not one of them. Converting waste vegtable oils or fat scapes to diesel is. Cellulosic ethanol may be once the chemistry is worked out. So do not discount biofuels totally. It will never be a major source of energy.

                You are confusing energy with transportation fuel. Many sources of energy are not suitable for transportation. However, we do use natural gas and petroleum to generate electricity that could be generated by other stationary means. That would reduce the demand for those products and allow them to be used for transportation or home heating.

  49. When Israel is destroy the Palis will have the land. Check.

    Obama gives up in Iraq nad Afgahnistan. Check.

    Leave them alone. Does that include no muslims in non muslim countries? Are they free to immigrate to non muslim lands, but non muslims are not allowed in muslim countries? Leave alone implies, at least to me, that both parties would have to go to great lengths not to antagonize/interact each other. Does peace require zero interaction between non muslims and muslims? Or does it mean interaction but only on muslim terms?

    • Why would you want to restrict freedom of people?

      If you restrict freedom of people – other will restrict your freedom.

      “Leave alone” means “do not impose”.

      I doubt you would give up Middle East oil – so you believe in trade, right?

      You forget history – the Middle East has been occupied by some European power for 100 years. Every time they’ve pushed for self-determination, the West has crushed them.

      If you LOVE freedom, do not believe they wouldn’t???

      • You said they want to be left alone, Black Flag. I want them to leave me alone. Trade is not ‘leaving alone’. I’m perfectly willing to sacrifice all pleasures Islamic. Including the oil. Yes, I understand the short and long term implications. The implications are better than living with Islam, at least for me.

        So I guess you’re saying muslims don’t want to be left alone?

        • Of course trade is ‘leaving them alone’.

          You are being obtuse, Cyndi.

          You cannot grasp that they are people like you.

          Until you America realizes that, nothing but pain will visit families over there and here….

          • Trade is not leaving anybody alone. No interaction, PERIOD, is leaving alone.

            The Islamic world wants interaction on THEIR terms, and their terms ONLY.

            You’re incorrect. They are NOT people like me. If they were, there would be total isolation bewteen Infidels and Muslims.

            This is about total control by muslims over infidels.

            • As I said,

              As long as you cannot see that they are human and people just like you, then you will never see them as anything but what you do now.

              They laugh, love their kids, pray to God, go to sleep and hope for a better tomorrow – just like you.

              Until the West sees them as human beings – and people – no more or less than us – we and they will suffer.

              • One thing that you leave out of this statement is that the Middle Eastern Country’s need to see Israel and us as people too.

              • The moment the West and Israel act appropriately to the People of the Middle East, would go a long way.

                Let’s start first – stop invading them, murdering them – and then let’s see how they behave. Whatta ya think?

              • BF,

                I don’t doubt that there are people in Islamic countries who just want to get on with their lives like you and I do. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough to check those who don’t.

              • It’s the governments causing the strife. It is ALWAYS the governments. I don’t wish to be blamed for the acts of Bush or Obama, and I don’t blame the people of any “country” for the actions of the Rulers of that “country”.

            • Cyndi P

              I have many times detailed here the history of Iran in the 20th Century.

              They have been invaded by Russia and Britain during WW2, where Britain seized Iranian oil.

              After the war, a moderate was elected President – who nationalized the oil industry away from Britain.

              The US staged a coup and overthrew the President and installed the Shah, who gave back the oil to Britain and the US (good ol’ mercantilism).

              The Shah with the support, training and blessing of the USA decimated the ranks of the moderates by execution, exile and imprisonment.

              By the direct actions of the USA, there were no more moderates left

              The only group that stood up against the Shah and for the Iranian People were the Clerics.

              With no surprise, the People came to support the Clerics.

              If you believe Islam is ‘out to get you’ – a bit of attention to history –first is required. Quickly you will see that it isn’t them against us – it has been us, – and always us (ie: the West) that have been invading them

              How would you feel if you were there?

              Without an historical perspective, misunderstanding and incorrect conclusions result – all that happens from that are actions that will only make it worse.

              • BF,

                I have an historical perspective. It doesn’t give them the excuse to behave the way they do. My mother would get drunk and beat the shit out of me and my sisters. Does that mean I have an excuse to get drunk and beat the shit out of my daughter? NO. It does not. My grandfather sexually assualted me when I was in my teens. Should I go out and sexually assault someone in his teens? Why not? I’m a victim. Fair is fair, right?

                Even if being a victim gives persmission to victimize others, how does this explain muslim violence in countries like Bali, Thailand, and the Phillipines? What about violence towards non muslims in Islamic majority countries like Pakistan, Lebanon, and Iraq? Are those religous minorites committing violence on muslims even though they’re far out numbered?

                As a survivor of abuse, I understand the game. The game is about control and power. Nothing else.

              • So when the abuse continues, Cyndi, is your suggestion to accept just it?

                IMO, you have a skewed historical perspective.

                The US invaded the Philippines and utterly slaughtered the Philippines (est. 1 million) – and the near-extermination of the Islamic Moro ( 100,000 deaths)

                Do you think that might cause some of those people to be angry?

              • BF,

                Abuse continues only because the victim allows it. My abusive ex husband doesn’t even know how to find me unless he abuses our daughter to find out where I’m at, and then has to get here. There is ZERO interaction between him and I. My abusive mother is thousands of miles away from me. I rarely call, visit or email. Why? Because I want to be left alone if she can’t be civil. I don’t want to keep fighting and being miserable. And then after disengaging myself from my abusers, I have chosen to GET OVER IT. IT IS IN THE PAST. I have chosen to have a good life in spite of what was done to me. So when someone is being abused over the long term, it is because they allow it. If the Islamic world REALLY wanted to be left alone, they wouldn’t keep doing business with us, or causing trouble. They could either refuse to do business with the West, or just give all the oil away and be done with it. But they don’t. Seems to me they don’t ‘want to be left alone’. They want our money, at the very least.

              • So, they want to trade – does that give the USA the right to invade them?

  50. Israel ‘Deplores’ IAEA Call to Join NPT
    US Rejects Vote, Canada Tries to Block Resolution
    by Jason Ditz, September 18, 2009

    The Israeli government has officially said that it “deplores” the vote by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) member states to call on Israel to join the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and submit their nuclear facilities to the same oversight as the rest of the world does.

    [Of course, Israel is the world’s ‘special case’]

    The vote narrowly passed, 49-45, and was generally opposed by Western nations while being supported by UN Security Council permanent members Russia and China, as well as most of the nations in the Middle East.

    The United States ambassador Glyn Davies publicly rejected the resolution, calling it “redundant” and claiming that calling on Israel to join the NPT as every other nation in the Middle East has unfairly singled them out.

    [The most amazing statement – ‘because they are the only one, it’s unfair to single them out!!’]

    Canada went one step further, trying to block the vote entirely and condemning it as “unbalanced.” Votes on similar resolutions had been successfully blocked in 2007 and 2008, but this year’s attempt at blocking it failed.

    The issue of Israel as a nuclear power and a non-signatory of the NPT has been controversial, and when a US State Department official said in May that the US wanted everyone to join the NPT Israel reacted with shock and outrage

    • “The third pillar allows for and agrees upon the transfer of nuclear technology and materials to NPT signatory countries for the development of civilian nuclear energy programs in those countries, as long as they can demonstrate that their nuclear programs are not being used for the development of nuclear weapons.”

      Why would anyone expect Israel to sign this treaty, which gives Iran the right to get help and to give help to other countries to have nuclear programs when Iran shouts to the world that they want Israel destoyed. The prove it is for peaceful means is laughable. As far as Iran allowing inspections-they do that only when they are prepared for them and want too, which is worthless.

      • Given that every nation on earth other than Israel, N. Korea, Pakistan and India have signed – it is a bizarre complaint you have.

        It is sovereign right to use nuclear energy.

        There are plenty of nuclear programs available throughout the world for any NPT – whether or not Israel is a signatory.

        And (sorry to be short with you) – the lies you spread regarding Iran wanting Israel destroyed highlights exactly the hypocritical nature of politics you rant about – and here you are engaging in it! You, sir, should be very ashamed of yourself.

        • I have heard straight from the president of Iran that the people of Iran wants Israel destroyed so what am I missing

          • and death to America

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHoVuFlrcjA&NR=1 Death to America

            • So in short I am not ashamed of anything but I do blame most of this horror that we are experiencing on the governments of all these countries but I will admit to finding your staunch support of the Middle Eastern Countries without any acknowledgment of what they have done wrong or the acknowledgment that Israel has been treated unfairly too, unbalanced

              • I suggest a few lessons in Farsi and less dependence on MSM translations.

                I noticed you failed to provide videos of the US statements of bombing Iran – do you think that may have provoked the demonstrations against the US?

                I am unsure of the ‘unbalanced’ reporting regarding Israel you are suggesting.

                I support the people of the Middle East – the ones that live there – chose their own self-determination.

              • V. Holland</b.

                here is his office’s English-language summary of the speech, which was delivered in Farsi, the Persian language:

                “President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here Friday that the Holocaust black box should be opened.

                “Addressing Tehrani Friday prayers worshipers as pre-sermon lecturer, President Ahmadinejad said, ‘Our call over the past four years has been if the Holocaust claimed by the Zionist regime and its allies is true, why they (Zionists and westerners) do not allow any research on it?’

                “President Ahmadinejad said research on everything is free but Holocaust is the key to a sealed fact and black box.

                “He went on questioning, ‘When the event is so much important for which a land is occupied, such a war is waged, millions of people are killed, injured and made homeless, thousands of families are ruined and the Middle East is kept under the shadow of insecurity, why the black box should not be decoded so that facts and realities are revealed to all?’

                “He said Palestine is still the most important issue of the world of Islam. ‘We do believe that if war is waged in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is because of Zionists’ provocation. If Sudan is suppressed it is because of Zionists’ temptations. Zionists are behind all the conspiracies of the arrogance and colonialism. They do not allow the main factor of excuses for Palestine occupation be examined and surveyed.’

                “He added, ‘The pretext for establishing the Zionist regime is a lie; a lie which relies on an unreliable claim, a mythical claim, and the occupation of Palestine has nothing to do with the Holocaust.’

              • (marg bar Esraiil)

                From searching the internet it seems that this is the chant that is being heard over and over-from listening to numerous videos-it certainly sounds to my ear like this is what they are chanting in the above video-There is a disagreement about whether these word mean “down with Israel” or “Death to Israel” in Farsi, although I don’t see these words in the speech that you posted. I am at this time not sure whether they are saying death to Israel and the nicer translation is just being politically correct or there saying down with Israel and the harsher translation is being used as a tool. Either way I don’t think you know for sure either. But I will qualify my above statement with this : He has make other statements like wiping Israel from the pages of history, which they are also debating the exact meaning of-putting them all together makes me lean toward the harsher definition being his true meaning.

              • No, he has not. Again, the is the MSM version – meant to do exactly what it did to you – make an enemy where no enemy exists.

                He said “The Zionist regime will be erased from the pages of history”

              • I don’t believe I see a difference other than the fact that he didn’t say Israel-Zionist Regime is just another name for Israel-You might note that they don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist so not using her name isn’t unusual.

                Please tell me BF-do you believe that the Arabs or the Palestine’s have done anything wrong.

  51. Now, compare to this

    Iran – who has signed – has inspections (of which have shown zero bomb program)

    Clinton: ‘Time Running Out for Iran’
    Warns of ‘Profound Consequences’ if Iran Can’t Prove Intentions Are Peaceful
    by Jason Ditz, September 18, 2009

    Secretary of State Hillary Clinton today warned of ‘profound consequences’ if Iran is unable to convince the United States that their civilian nuclear program “is intended exclusively for peaceful purposes.”

    Iran has agreed to enter into talks with the six parties (the US, Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany) which are planned for early next month. The US has said it doesn’t expect anything positive to come of the talks, and has been pressing the other five negotiating nations to support “crippling” sanctions against Iran.
    —–

    A nation that has nukes and refuses inspections – the US says “oh, unfair that THEY have to have inspections” and on the same day to a nation that HAS HAD INSPECTIONS and HAS SIGNED “you are going to get sanctions!!”

    Do you see why the world thinks the US government is totally insane?

  52. T-Ray

    The cost to drill for oil in many parts of the US is higher than the Middle East but it is below the current price of oil. It would be profitable. Note, I said we could get off Middle East oil, I did not say we would be energy independent.

    The cost of drilling in the US is higher than the ME – True.

    Below the price of oil – Someplace, yes. Other places, no.

    Profitable – Some places, yes. Other places, no.

    Where do except to import the oil that the US isn’t importing from no….

    Not all biofuels have negative cost and energy values. There are some that make sense. Corn is not one of them. Converting waste vegtable oils or fat scapes to diesel is.

    The amount of fuel provided is so small as to make no difference whatsoever from vegie oil.

    Cellulosic ethanol may be once the chemistry is worked out. So do not discount biofuels totally. It will never be a major source of energy.

    It will NEVER be a major source of energy – so let’ heave it over to the ‘not worth discussing’ pile.

    The energy out of biofuel is very low. You need much larger amounts of biofuel to replace the energy equivalent of oil. To replace a barrel of oil requires 2 twice bio fuel. It is simply inefficient. Replacing an effective energy source with an inefficient fuel source will LOWER your standard of living.

    You are confusing energy with transportation fuel. Many sources of energy are not suitable for transportation. However, we do use natural gas and petroleum to generate electricity that could be generated by other stationary means.

    No sir. You do not understand the production of electricity.

    Every erg of electrical energy needed is produced on demand. There is no supply of electricity sitting in a warehouse.

    That erg is generated by the ‘base load’ or by the ‘variable load’. Hydro, coal and nuclear provide base load. Natural gas and Oil provide variable load.

    You cannot replace variable load with sun or wind – since variable load exists to make up the energy over and above base – and must be available instantly on demand which neither wind nor solar can provide.

    You cannot replace base load with sun or wind – since base load must be stable which neither wind nor solar provide.

    The only possible potential for solar/wind is personal power – off-the-grid power, where you can still pull power from the grid when solar/wind fails you. Solar/wind cannot provide grid power.

    That would reduce the demand for those products and allow them to be used for transportation or home heating.

    No, because of an error in understanding.

    • Biofuels will not replace petroleum but will supplement petroleum. My guesss is that they will make up to 15% of the liquid fuel mix. The primary winners will be cellulosic ethanol and biodiesel. New methods and catalysts are showing strong promise in R&D and pilot plant scenarios. Some demonostration plants are being built. The newer cellulosic processes are much drier than the current corn ethanol process hence do not require a large amount of energy for distillation. Now add to that the small amount of waste oils and fats the can be reclaimed cheaply.

      Biodiesel has 91% of the energy density of petroleum diesel by volume. Ethanol has an energy density of 63% of gasoline by volume. All that means is that if someone sells you unsubsidiized ethanol for more than 63% of the price of gasoline you are getting ripped off.

      2008 US fuel sources for electicity generation in thousands of megawatts:
      Coal 1,99,385
      Petroleum Liquid 31,162
      Petroleum Coke 14,192
      Nat. Gas 876,948
      Other Gas 11,573
      Nuclear 806,182
      Hydro 248,085
      Renewables 123,603
      Hydro Storage -6,238
      Other 10,367
      Total 4,110,259

      Natural gas is 21% of the mix. Natural gas is the preferred fuel in CA after hydro and nuclear because of environmental regulations. It is not just used for topping; it is a significant part of the base load. For your information I do understand base load. Yes wind and solar are variable. However, here in CA and the SW, we have an abundance of sun available and guess what, its available during the hottest part of the day when I need airconditioning. It can also be used to pump hydro storage.

      18% of our imported oil comes from the Persian Gulf, 60% from Saudi Arabia and 30% from Iraq. 66% of our total petroleum supply is imported. So if we can generate or save 12% of our crude oil requirements we can wean ourselves from Persian Gulf oil. That should be feasible with the range of resources we have. It is interesting to note that gasoline and diesel fuel consumption has gone down every year for the last 3 years as tracked by sales tax receipts so this is motor fuels including any biofuels. This was a result of the price spike followed by the recession/depression.

      I read Friday a report from a major refining technology company that they expect no refinery construction in the US now or in the distant future. So we can expect to import more product in the future. In 1982, we had 301 refineries. We now have 150. The capacity is about the same, so these refineries have been progressively debottlenecked and upgraded. However, they are aging and we will see gradual decommissioning in the future as crudes get more sour.

  53. T-Ray

    1) Then we should give the southwest back to Mexico and the remainder to the Indians and leave. Israel claimed the land by right of conquest. Not pretty but no different than us.

    Sorry to bring up to date – but it is against international law to seize territory by conquest. It is not a right of war.

    There was no national government there at the time.

    Incorrect. It was Turkish, until ceded by treaty to Britain.

    It has never been independent since 2000 B.C.

    Yes prior to 1920 the land was occupied by 550K Arabs (mostly nomads) and 50K Jews (in cities).

    I have already provided the census to you regarding Jerusalem which severely contradicts your statement.

    The immigration began bringing a few hudred thousand of each. There would have been more Jews except for the interference of Britain.

    ….and the Turks, don’t forget the Turks.

    How is it strictly Arab land when there was no nation state

    Basing an argument on an error of fact is a fallacy.

    and when Jews were already in residence although in minority at the time?

    It wasn’t ‘strictly’ Arab land – as you already admitted, hundreds of thousands of Jews already lived there.

    So I remain confused about your argument….

    Or maybe we should be calling Turkish land as it was ruled by the Turks prior to 1918.

    Let’s end the argument and give it back to the original owners – Egypt.

    2) Did the Jews originally leave Palestine voluntarily or were they too driven out by the Arabs.

    They were driven out by the Turks. Turks are not Arabs.

    3) I said people with claims prior to 1920 had legitimate claims. All others were immigrants including Arabs. The Mandate started in 1920 not 1948. Had Britain followed through on her promises to the LoN, there would have been far fewer Jews for Hitler to slaughter.

    If there was no treaty of Versailles, there would have been no slaughter of Jews either.

    4) I am not a student of ME history. The link Kent posted was quite definitive on the fact that 68% of the refugees left voluntarily at the behest of the Arab governments attacking Israel at the time.

    The Palestinians had been disarmed by the British. The Haganah received a shipload of Czech weapons, including mortars – paid by American Jews – and armed themselves and launched their ethnic cleansing program.

    The Haganah (who became the IDF) outnumbered the combined armies of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. The IDF were stopped when Iraq moved two divisions into Syria, promoting the British and USA to declare a cease-fire before the Iraqi divisions decimated the IDF.

    This ethnic cleansing is called the “al Nakba” – The Catastrophe –
    Quote;
    The 1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya), also known as al Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎), meaning the “disaster”, “catastrophe”, or “cataclysm,”[1] occurred when between 650,000 and 750,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes by Jewish or Israeli forces, during the creation of the state of Israel and the civil war that preceded it. Many fled in fear of another Deir Yassin massacre.

    The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when around 120 fighters from the Irgun and Lehi Zionist paramilitary groups attacked Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, a Palestinian-Arab village of roughly 600 people.[1]

    Around 107 villagers, including women and children, were killed. Some were shot, while others died when hand grenades were thrown into their homes.[3] Several were taken prisoner and may have been killed after being paraded through the streets of West Jerusalem, though accounts vary.[4] Four of the attackers died, with around 35 injured.[5]

    The killings were condemned by the leadership of the Haganah, the Jewish community’s main paramilitary force, and by the area’s two chief rabbis. The Jewish Agency for Israel sent King Abdullah of Jordan a letter of apology, which he rebuffed.[2]

    The massacre became a pivotal event in the Arab-Israeli conflict for its demographic and military consequences. The narrative was embellished and used by various parties to attack each other—by the Palestinians to besmirch Palestine’s Jewish community, and later Israel; by the Haganah to play down their own role in the affair; and later by the Israeli Left to accuse the Irgun and Lehi of violating the Jewish principle of tohar hanashek (purity of arms), thus blackening Israel’s name around the world.[6] News of the killings sparked terror within the Palestinian community, encouraging them to flee from their towns and villages in the face of Jewish troop advances, and it strengthened the resolve of Arab governments to intervene, which they did five weeks later by invading Palestine, following Israel’s declaration of independence on May 14

    6) Yes they lived together peacefully and might have continued that way without the interference of Britain. The professed goal of the Palestinians and many other Arabs including Iran is extermination of Israel.

    Blatant lie perpetuated by the MSM – it is very frustrating to hear strong thinkers like you -while complaining of media lies- continue to repeat those lies as truth.

    The Iran President said : “The Zionist regime will be erased from the pages of time”.

    This is equivalent to say “The Democrats will never rule again”.

    One (if one is willing to rise above mere dogma) can understand the Arab position on Israel – committing (and continues to commit) ethnic cleansing, and impunity to international pressure due to asymmetrical and hypocritical actions of the USA.

    That is genocide. Do we not have an obligation to prevent that. I do not hear Israel professing the extermination of Arabs in Gaza or the West Bank.

    Really? Ethnic cleansing is a messy sport…

    Let me help you:

    “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
    — David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

    “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
    — Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

    “[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
    — Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

    “[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”

    — Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”‘ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

    “The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
    — Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

    “The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”
    — Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

    “The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
    — Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

    “(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
    — Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

    “Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
    — Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

    “If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
    — Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

    “I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
    — Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

    “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”

    — Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

    “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
    — Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

    “Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”

    — Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

    I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.

    — Winston Churchill, expounding on his racist views on the Jewish right to Palestine, comparing the indigenous Arabs to a dog in a manger. To the Palestine Royal Commission (1937).

    After the Holocaust, it has become almost impossible to conceal large-scale crimes against humanity. Our modern communication-driven world, especially since the upsurge of electronic media, no longer allows human-made catastrophes to remain hidden from the public eye or to be denied. And yet, one such crime has been erased almost totally from the global public memory: the dispossession of the Palestinians in 1948 by Israel. This, the most formative event in the modern history of the land of Palestine, has ever since been systematically denied, and is still today not recognised as an historical fact, let alone acknowledged as a crime that needs to be confronted politically as well as morally.

    — Ilan Pappe (The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine)

    7) Our involvement in the greater ME is complex and based on oil and cold war diplomacy and strategy. It is far too complex for me to sort out.

    Easy – no entanglements, free trade with all.

    8) Are there not Arabs living peacefully in current day Israel?

    Yes, and are denied equal rights.

    No doubt there was evil perpetruated on both sides. At some point though you have to call for an end to the violence and forget the past.

    Remind yourself that when your home is taken from you by violence.

    9) Have not Palestinians emigrated to the US? Refugees do not stay in camps for 60 years. There are no refugee camps left from WWII and have not been for decades. Why do they persist in the ME except for political reasons?

    They fully understand that if the give up, they lose their nation. No more than you’d be ok with being shipped off to Russia – they are not ok with it either.

    In his book “The Gun and the Olive Branch,” David Hersh quotes Hebrew University’s professor Martin van Creveld and his pessimistic appraisal of Israel’s potential reaction to another existential threat (at the time the second Intifada).

    If Israel were going to be destroyed by the terrorists, there was only one thing to do:

    “We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force…

    Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: ‘Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.’ Our armed forces…are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that will happen, before Israel goes under.”

    • Too much, I yield, it was fun joisting with you. But I just proved it takes two or more to argue independent of who has right on their side. 🙂

  54. BF,

    With the exception of Iraq and Afgahnistan in the last 7 years, The US and NATO countries have not ‘invaded’ Islamic countries. The complaints against America started long beforethat. The Islamic nations have been willing participants in a mutually beneficial relationship. That doesn’t make them innocent victims, at least in my mind. The only thing they are victims of is their own ideology, be it political or religous. So your arguemnt that they ‘just want to be left alone’ seems invalid to me. So far as I can tell, they’re as guilty of what happens to them as anyone else. In other words, there’s lots of blame to spread around.

  55. V.Holland

    I don’t believe I see a difference other than the fact that he didn’t say Israel-Zionist Regime is just another name for Israel-You might note that they don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist so not using her name isn’t unusual.

    If you believe that, then you believe the Democratic Party is equal to the United States of America.

    Please tell me BF-do you believe that the Arabs or the Palestine’s have done anything wrong.

    1) Who invaded who? Palestinians were the ones that have been ethnic cleansed – no one else (in this matter).

    2) Who invaded who? I don’t remember Arabs landing an army in New York or London?

    Perhaps that is where one can start, huh? Stop the ethnic cleansing and the invading of Arab lands… I wonder if that would improve relations? It’s just a guess….

  56. Cyndi P

    BF, With the exception of Iraq and Afgahnistan in the last 7 years, The US and NATO countries have not ‘invaded’ Islamic countries.

    That is one hellva exception…. :blink:

    I detailed _ALREADY_ that UK had invaded Iran during WW2 (as well Iraq -again- (after of course, the British bombed strafed and gassed the Iraqi’s between the wars — gee, just like the US and Britain did (again) after the GW#1 (minus the gassing)) – and by mercantilism, replaced the Brits as the colonialists.

    You forgot, already, the overthrow of Iran democratically elected leaders?

    The US accepted the torch from the UK – including all the hatred. Can’t accept the mercantilism without accepting the historical baggage of colonialism.

    I detailed _ALREADY_ the genocide of the Philippine Islamic More’s during the invasion of the Philippines.

    I detailed _ALREADY_ the US invasion of Beirut (you do remember the barracks bombing, right?)

    You don’t remember that UK invaded Egypt to seize the Suez Canal, right?

    Of course, the US support of the criminal Saudi’s is legendary.

    Here is a short history lesson:
    1904 – Tangier, Morocco. “We want either Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead.” A squadron demonstrated to force release of a kidnapped American. Marines were landed to protect the consul general.

    TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.

    IRAN 1953 Command Operation – CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah

    EGYPT 1956 Marines evacuate foreigners.

    LEBANON l958 Troops, Marine occupation against rebels.

    IRAQ 1963 Command operation – CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba’ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.

    OMAN l970 Command operation – U.S. directs Iranian (Shah) marine invasion.

    IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. (Do remember, that Iran did not execute any Americans during their Embassy siege)

    LIBYA l981 Naval jets – Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.

    LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops – Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.

    IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.

    LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov’t.

    IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.

    LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.

    SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets – Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.

    IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.

    KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.

    SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be “terrorist” nerve gas plant.

    AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.

    IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.

    AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.

    YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.

    IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi’ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.

    PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians.

    SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, covert operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes and Cruise missile attacks against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against “pirates” and insurgents.

    SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians

    The complaints against America started long beforethat.

    Yes, it started the day the Americas took over from the British in the Middle East. The USA inherited the anger, just like the USA inherited the anger in Vietnam when the USA took over from the French.

    The Islamic nations have been willing participants in a mutually beneficial relationship. That doesn’t make them innocent victims, at least in my mind.

    Killing innocent people is a crime and evil.

    However, one can understand their anger. It does not excuse it – it explains it.

    The only thing they are victims of is their own ideology, be it political or religous.

    Given that they have been invaded, bombed and killed for nearly 100 years – you have a hard time making a case that it is their ‘ideology’.

    I suppose their ‘ideology’ of wanting your children to live is different then yours, right?

    So your arguemnt that they ‘just want to be left alone’ seems invalid to me. So far as I can tell, they’re as guilty of what happens to them as anyone else. In other words, there’s lots of blame to spread around.

    Let’s do an experiment:

    Take away the fire, and let’s see if the water still boils…

    • You forgot to mention Germany invading North Africa during WWII. So if a small military force is invited by an Islamic government that’s an invasion? The first gulf war was to help Kuwait. So that counts as an invasion? I always thought an invasion involved like what we did to Germany during WWII with an occupation afterwards. My mistake.

      How far do we get to go back? Jews and Christians have been around much longer than muslims, so I guess that means muslims have no claim to anything since they were the last ones on the scene, right? Or, they can just get over the past and live peacefully with others.

      So I’ll go with saying that, yes the Islamic world had some bad things happen to them. They need to get over it. There is no way to undo what was done. Now, if they CHOOSE to keep fighting because of something that can’t be undone, then they deserve what they get. I don’t believe they are innocent victims.

      • Cyndi P

        You forgot to mention Germany invading North Africa during WWII.

        I thought WW1 and WW2 were self-evident.

        Few forget those – its the others that no one knows.

        So if a small military force is invited by an Islamic government that’s an invasion? The first gulf war was to help Kuwait. So that counts as an invasion?

        It was very difficult for them to accept (it was not an “invite”, Cyndi, that is Saudi didn’t ask for it – it was offered). It was difficult because past history showed such acceptance became permanent. And, as it seems, history was right again.

        And, yes it does. Review the geography -Iraq/Kuwait dispute is not the United States (well, I guess it is now….but you know what I mean).

        I always thought an invasion involved like what we did to Germany during WWII with an occupation afterwards. My mistake.

        Ask the Iraqis. They’ll help fix your mistake.

        How far do we get to go back?

        Ask yourself that question, Cyndi. And I am seriously asking you to place you -Cyndi- in their position, not just philosophize.

        If another nation overthrew your government, and put in place a terror – who then strung up your parents and siblings after he tortured them – how long would you remember that evil nation? A year? You’d just forgettaboutit?

        If a bunch of immigrates – heavily armed by another nation – raise up, declare THEMSELVES a country, and the nation that armed them (and disarmed you) says “Yes!” – resulting in the immigrants slaughtering their way against essentially unarmed people – and push you and your family into Canada, while saying “YOU start over THERE!” – how’d you feel? For how long? A year? 10? 100? Until the day you died?

        Your failure is the lack of compassion and understanding. Thus, the same failure with America.

        That failure will doom this country into suffering for generations.

        From an Israeli:

        The Palestinians will never forgive us.

        Not only those who are alive today, but their children will despise us until their dying day, and theirs and theirs. They will revile us for having occupied them, exploited them, shelled them, and bombed them, and for having robbed them of their dignity and their land.

        The hatred is such that it will continue even if we end the occupation. They will hate us, rightly or wrongly, for robbing them of their ability to govern themselves, for undermining their ability to persuade others of their morality of their cause, for creating the conditions for rule by gangs, fragmentation of the family, loss of national purpose and memory.

        Unto the 10th generation and beyond, we will serve the Palestinian national imagination as Pharoah and Amalek, Hitler and Chmielnitzli, Titus and Tomas de Torquemada.

        Neither will the Lebanese ever forgive us.

        Not for the refugees our Christian allies murdered a quarter century ago in the Sabra and Shatilla camps in West Beirut, and not for the civilians our fighter bombers and artillerymen killed last summer in apartment blocks in the south of the city.

        The Syrians, too, bear their scars and their permanent grudges. Even many those with whom we have made peace, in Egypt and Jordan, still hate us and are not about to stop.

        The Arabs will never forgive us.

        Jews and Christians have been around much longer than muslims, so I guess that means muslims have no claim to anything since they were the last ones on the scene, right? Or, they can just get over the past and live peacefully with others.

        So, let’s solve the problem and give it all back to Egypt – you agree with that right?

        They were there first.

        So I’ll go with saying that, yes the Islamic world had some bad things happen to them. They need to get over it.

        You tell me that – after your family has been slaughtered and uprooted – that you could say that.

        If you do – I know you’re a liar.

        There is no way to undo what was done. Now, if they CHOOSE to keep fighting because of something that can’t be undone, then they deserve what they get. I don’t believe they are innocent victims

        They will keep fighting until it is undone.

        For that is the only way evil is destroyed.

        It cannot be left undone.

        • Funny you mention my family. My parents are immigrants. Both of their families suffered and pretty much lost everything in WWI, the Great Depression, and then WWII. My dad came to the US from Italy in 1927 and my mom from Peru in 1947. There was no hate and revenge being preached. Lots of physical, verbal and sexual abuse though, particularly on my mom’s side. So I guess that gives me free reign to abuse others. Yippee! A perfect exuse for evil behavoir on my part. And when I’m done destroying others, all the evil that’s been done to me and mine, will be undone. How great is that? You’re right, after I’ve abused a few kids, THEN I’ll really be over it.

          Do I now understand your logic?

          • No. You purposely misunderstand.

            You take your own experience (or that of your family) and distort it to excuse the behavior of others.

            • BF- You are debating someone who seems to enjoy their own hatred and anger. Reading her words I keep being reminded of the reality that hatred hurts the hater more than the hated. Of course the rest of the world suffers the consequences.

              • Kent,

                What are talking about? I don’t think you’ve been following along very closely. It was a summation of the lesson I got from Black Flag, as I understand it. I’ve just spent the last day and half trying to explain that I don’t believe that being a receipent of abuse justifies abusing others. Good grief, Kent. I expect better from you.

            • I do not purposely misunderstand.

              I simply took your example and logic, and applied it to my own life.

              Isn’t that the point of education?

              • Of course you distort it.

                The question is not whether killing innocent people is right. It isn’t – no matter what happened in the past.

                But at the same time continuing the abuse as Israel is doing on the Palestinians cannot be condoned either!

                You want these two events to be linked – that is, since the abuse has been done it is ok to continue it.

                At some point, this will destroy everything you want and have, too.

                The destruction may not fall on you; it may not fall today – but it will fall, and it will fall on your children or their children.

                And they will cry – and ask why YOU supported the abuse.

              • I don’t support the abuse, Black Flag. I think both sides should knock it off.

                I just don’t believe that the muslim world is an innocent victim in all this.

                I believe that Israel will be destroyed. Unfortunately, that won’t be enough for the muslims. They’ll keep right on destroying. Islam will win eventually. Future generations will ask us why we allowed that to happen. They’ll want to know about the abuse alright, especially the women.

  57. T-Ray

    All that means is that if someone sells you unsubsidiized ethanol for more than 63% of the price of gasoline you are getting ripped off.

    Besides that, it takes 75% more fuel to do the same work or go the same distance in a car.

    I expect biofuels to have a minor impact at best – too much difficulty not enough return for the price, IMO.

    2008 US fuel sources for electicity generation in thousands of megawatts:Coal 1,99,385
    Petroleum Liquid 31,162
    Petroleum Coke 14,192
    Nat. Gas 876,948
    Other Gas 11,573
    Nuclear 806,182
    Hydro 248,085
    Renewables 123,603
    Hydro Storage -6,23
    8Other 10,367
    Total 4,110,259
    Natural gas is 21% of the mix. Natural gas is the preferred fuel in CA after hydro and nuclear because of environmental regulations.

    And they pay the cost of their choice.

    It is not just used for topping; it is a significant part of the base load.

    Sir, if a State or a country wishes to pay more for electricity, they are certainly able to use more Nat. Gas or oil instead of coal.

    The point I am making that introduction of variable power does not solve the power problem

    For your information I do understand base load. Yes wind and solar are variable. However, here in CA and the SW, we have an abundance of sun available and guess what, its available during the hottest part of the day when I need airconditioning. It can also be used to pump hydro storage.

    What your argument always lacks is economics.

    You want to use expensive, and lower powered bio. Sure, go for it and suffer a lower standard of living

    You want to use extremely expensive and variable power solar/wind. Sure, go for it and suffer a lower standard of living.

    18% of our imported oil comes from the Persian Gulf, 60% from Saudi Arabia and 30% from Iraq. 66% of our total petroleum supply is imported. So if we can generate or save 12% of our crude oil requirements we can wean ourselves from Persian Gulf oil.

    …and double your cost. This will impact your standard of living

    That should be feasible with the range of resources we have. It is interesting to note that gasoline and diesel fuel consumption has gone down every year for the last 3 years as tracked by sales tax receipts so this is motor fuels including any biofuels.

    It is called a recession.

    This was a result of the price spike followed by the recession/depression. I read Friday a report from a major refining technology company that they expect no refinery construction in the US now or in the distant future.

    The “green-eco nuts” are doing a good job at stagnating the nation.

    So we can expect to import more product in the future.

    More refined product in the future.

    • BF, I know you don’t know me well since I am relatively new here. I am a firm believer in capitalism and the profits they generate, I detest subsidies because the skew the economics and hide the true costs, and I am a tight fisted Scotsman who would not spend $3 for a one product when I can get the equivalent for $2. I did not cover the economics because I assume them to be self-evident. Without profit and competitive pricing, they are not viable.

      Your comment on ethanol is wrong. If the price is same per BTU, then ethanol is equivalent to gasoline. It burns cleanly, has a reasonable octane value, mixes well with gasoline and will perform equivalently. The only negative is range. A tank of gasoline will go about 300 miles, ethanol only about 190.

      On economics and standard of living, I guess my education is woefully lacking because I fail to see how our standard of living is reduced if we use our natural resources, our labor, our technology our capital, pay profits to our stockholders and pay taxes to our government as opposed to buying gasoline from a refinery in Jamnigar India using Persian Gulf crude, Indian Labor, Indian capital, our technology, paying profits to an Indian national and taxes to India.

      I pointed out the decline in fuel consumption in the US because many people are under the mistaken impression that it is monotonically increasing. Just like many younger folk feel that air pollution has always gotten worse.

      Agree the greenies are blocking much economic progress here.

      Have to go try to earn some money selling technology to the Indians.

  58. ty

    Islams roots derive from Christianity?
    I might be mistaken, but i thought Islam derived from the pagan moon god allah.. please explain.

    Islam holds that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) – and view the Qur’an as God’s final revelation to humanity.

    Muslims regard Adam as the first prophet and Muhammad as the last prophet.

    Islam regards Jesus as a rasul – a prophet and a direct messenger from God because he received revelation from God, through which God revealed the Gospel to him.

    Five of the Great Prophets (sometimes known as Ulul Azmi literally: “leaders” — of the Rasuls (prophets)) receive the highest reverence for their perseverance and unusually strong commitment to God in the face of great suffering, namely:

    1. Nuh (Noah)
    2. Ibrahim (Abraham)
    3. Musa (Moses)
    4. Isa (Jesus)
    5. Muhammad

    So, Jesus receives the highest reverence in Islamic faith.

    The major difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam is merely;

    Judaism = the prophet has not yet come
    Christianity = the prophet has come, and they’re waiting for #2
    Islam = the prophet has come twice, and there are no more.

    Why did Israel break the Oslo accord and start building and not withdraw? Did the muslims break the treaty first by breaking the cease fire?

    Who was first? After Oslo, in contradiction to the agreement, Israel continued building settlements in the West Bank. The Palestinians and the Arab league demanded the end to the Settlements and demand the USA reign in Israel. But nothing happened – the Settlements continued being built.

    The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza began their resistance, and some rockets were launched into Northern Israel from positions inside Lebanon.

    It spiraled back into the same-old issues once again.

    It appears that there are 4 groups involved in the issue.

    Group 1) Palestinians demanding their territory back, but in cooperation and peace with Israel.

    Group 2) Israelis working for peace and offering territory to Group 1

    Group 3) Israeli’s working to undermine such a process – and in fact working to take the entire ‘traditional’ lands – which includes much of Syria and Lebanon.

    Group 4) Palestinians working to undermine the process – and in fact working to roll back the Israeli’s out of the region.

    Group 3 and Group 4 hold the largest political grip at this time.

    The USA support neither Group 1 or 2 or 4, and appears to support Group 3.

    these might be dumb questions, but i have to ask

    Not dumb – the situation is very complex only because there are evil machinations everywhere and everyone seems to be talking out both sides of their face.

    However, the lynch pin is the USA. Simply, Israel would not survive without USA involvement – militarily or economically.

    Should the US finally tire of being bloodied and pilloried throughout the world, it has the ability to apply massive leverage to the situation.

    But at this time, the Jewish Lobby in the USA is probably one of the most powerful lobby groups – and as such, politically, both parties are beholden to it.

    • More on the roots of “The People of the Book” – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

      All three trace their theological roots to Abraham.
      * Abraham’s first son Ishmael founded the Arab people
      * Abraham’s second son Isaac founded the Jewish people

      The story:
      Eventually, Abram grew old. He began to doubt that God’s promises would come true and that he would have as many children as there are stars in the sky—already, his wife had grown too old to bear children.

      Knowing that she could not provide a son, Sarai offered her maidservant Hagar as a wife to Abram.

      Hagar was Pharaoh’s daughter, who had been given to Abram when he had traveled through Egypt. Soon, Hagar had a son, and he was named Ishmael.

      However, God told Abram that Ishmael would not be a part of His promise.

      Instead, Ishmael would become the father of another nation.

      Eventually, Hagar and Ishmael were sent away into the desert; according to the Bible, the angel of God continued to watch over them and in time Ishmael became the father of the Arab people.

      God promised Abram that he would have a son from his wife Sarai and that this son, Isaac, would inherit God’s Covenant, which would be established between God and all of Abraham’s and Isaac’s descendants.

      From then on, Abram would be known as Abraham, “father of many”; Sarai, which means “my princess” in Hebrew, would be known as Sarah, “the princess.”

  59. Cyndi

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will defend the expansion of West Bank settlements when he meets U.S. President Barack Obama and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Tuesday, the premier’s spokesman said Monday.

    “You have never heard the prime minister say he would freeze settlement building. The opposite is true,” Nir Hefetz told Army Radio when asked about the tripartite summit, which will take place on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York.

    The meeting was seen in Israel as a success for Netanyahu, who has refused to agree to a demand from the U.S. and the Palestinians for a total halt to West Bank settlement construction. The Palestinians say the meeting will not constitute negotiations, since Abbas has refused to hold peace talks with Netanyahu until Israel freezes settlement construction.

    “There are some politicians… who see halting building or ceding national territory or harming the settlements in Judea and Samaria as an asset, something that can help Israel,” Hefetz said. “Prime Minister Netanyahu cannot be counted among those people.”

    Using Israel’s term for the West Bank, he added: “He sees the settlements in Judea and Samaria as a Zionist enterprise and the settlers in Judea and Samaria as his – our – brothers.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1115893.html

  60. Cyndi P

    I don’t support the abuse, Black Flag. I think both sides should knock it off.

    As I said, the US needs to stop supporting Israel and her hawks.

    Let’s see what happens when we remove the “fire” – let’s see if the pot still boils.

    I just don’t believe that the muslim world is an innocent victim in all this.

    They are reacting – and often, badly.

    IMO, Palestinians are politically stupid. Instead of leveraging the evil of Israeli actions – they obliterate that leverage by inflicting death on innocent people.

    The result is opinions like yours – who end up seeing a fog of tit-for-tat death of innocents – that is essentially unpentratable.

    I believe that Israel will be destroyed.

    It need not happen – but that does seem to be the path that is being followed.

    Unfortunately, that won’t be enough for the muslims. They’ll keep right on destroying. Islam will win eventually. Future generations will ask us why we allowed that to happen. They’ll want to know about the abuse alright, especially the women.

    So quickly you forget history?

    Christians abused women – or you forget the witch hunts, etc.

    And you forget – it was Islam that codified the first women’s rights.

    As I said, take away the fire and let’s see if the pot still boils….

    • It looks like we agree on couple of things.

      It looks as though America doesn’t suppport Israel anymore. Palistians do react badly and people see it as tit for tat. Israel doesn’t have to be destroyed though that’s likely to happen.

      I haven’t forgotten about history. I know about the witch hunts in Europe and the US. I’m not aware of any in the US and Europe in the last couple of hundred years though. Islam may have been the first to codify women’s rights but it seems they’ve fallen behind a little lately. I prefer not to live under Sharia law, but that’s just me.

      I’m guessing the pot will still boil when the fire is removed.

      • Well, we are -finally- somewhat aligned.

        I, too, wouldn’t take Sharia law – but I don’t take anyone’s fiat-law anyway.

        Islam, in some parts, has been turned extremists.

        But we must remember why.

        By machinations of Empires, they have destroyed the moderates. What is left are the puppets who obey their masters and the extremists who even under threat of torture and death, resist. So, as I’d say “What do you expect?”

        The refrain in Vietnam was, too, “If we remove the fire, the boiling will get worse!” – and that kept the US there for 10 years.

        When the fire was removed – the pot stopped boiling – and seemed to amaze almost everyone (except people like me).

        I see nothing different here.

        I was at a dinner party this weekend. Of course, some of the talk went political – and I can’t help myself – I politely blasted ill-informed opinions.

        Somehow it got on to different cultures – and the death of children.

        Unknown to most people are how the Arabic culture bury their children.

        I have attended these furnerals.

        The child is delivered to the grave.
        The father goes into the grave to accept the body of his child.
        He carries his child to the bottom of the grave.
        He sits in the grave with his child, in the dark, for as long as he feels his child needs him.
        When he beleives his child feels safe being alone, he leaves the grave.

        The final duty of a parent – guide and help his child transition to new place.

        The attitudes in the conversation changed. A little cultural understanding goes a long way.

  61. Cyndi</b.

    I think this article sums it up….
    http://www.forward.com/articles/114180/

    How I’m Losing My Love For Israel

    By Jay Michaelson
    Published September 16, 2009, issue of September 25, 2009.

    To paraphrase a recent Jewish organizational tagline, I’ve “hugged and wrestled with Israel” for 20 years now. At first, it was all embrace: Zionist songs and culture nourished me like mother’s milk, and on my first trip to Israel I kissed the tarmac at Ben Gurion, as did the other USY (United Synagogue Youth) kids.

    Eventually, the wrestling came to the fore, particularly as I became more conscious of Palestinians, settlements and religious-secular divides. In 2002, I wrote about being “a leftist and a Zionist” and how difficult it was to maintain those dual political identities. And for several years, I’ve argued for a more nuanced approach to Israel advocacy and education than the hail of falafel balls and the bludgeon of Taglit-Birthright.

    But lately I’ve noticed that I’m becoming a candidate for advocacy myself. I’ve loved Israel for decades, lived there for three years, and studied in detail the subtleties of its society and conflicts. And so it is with the sadness that accompanies the end of any affair that I notice my love is starting to wane.

    Why? There are four primary reasons.

    First, I admit, it has become simply exhausting to maintain the ambivalence, the hugging and the wrestling, the endless fence sitting. My love of Israel has turned into a series of equivocations: “I do not support the expansion of settlements, but the Palestinians bear primary responsibility for the collapse of the peace process in 1999.” “The Israelis acted overzealously in Gaza, but they must be entitled to defend themselves against rocket attacks.” “Yes, the separation wall is odious, but it is also effective and necessary.” Yes, but; no, but; defend, but. At some point, the complexity and ambiguity wears one out, particularly when the visuals on the anti-Israel side are so compelling, and so stark: walls, tanks, checkpoints.

    I admit that my exhaustion is exacerbated because, in my social circles, supporting Israel is like supporting segregation, apartheid or worse. I know this is a sign of weakness of will on my part, and I hope that the Times-magazine-sanctioned rise of J Street changes things, but I don’t think advocates of Israel understand exactly how bad the situation is on college campuses, in Europe, and in liberal or leftist social-political circles.

    Supporting Israel in these contexts is like supporting repression, or the war in Iraq, or George W. Bush. It’s gotten so bad, I don’t mention Israel in certain conversations anymore, and no longer defend it when it’s lumped in with South Africa and China by my friends. This is wrong of me, I know, but I’ve been defending Israel for years, and it’s gotten harder and harder to do so.

    How much of Israel’s pariah status is fantasy and how much is reality is, of course, a complicated question, and one that I would not presume to answer in this column. In the conversations I’ve had, it’s some of each — and again a subject for equivocation. Yes, Israel’s new government is a right/far-right alliance whose foreign policy looks suspiciously like Yitzhak Shamir’s era of “Say yes and do nothing.” But on the other hand, I understand why many Israelis are fed up and voted for it, and the oversimplifications among Israel’s critics are many. For example, just because this government is expanding settlements does not make doing so an essential part of Israel’s identity.

    But I’m not sure the parsing matters. I’m not sure any state with tanks can win a propaganda war against an occupied people with guns and Molotov cocktails — even if the occupied people’s leaders deserve plenty of blame. It’s exhausting to keep fighting this fight, especially as Israel’s authentically odious actions (excesses by soldiers, expropriations of land) continue to pile up, and the yes-buts grow harder and harder to maintain.

    The second reason for my waning love of Israel is that the Israel I love is increasingly disappearing. It started in Jerusalem, with the exodus of the secular left and the slow, agonizing demise of the culture they created. Now, many of my sabra friends are leaving the country entirely, desperately looking for tech jobs in California or academic postings in Indiana. However worn out I may be by the matzav my friends who have lived in it are far worse. For now, Tel Aviv’s liberal, secular, life-celebrating culture continues to thrive and is even developing a spiritual aspect — but like many Israelis, I feel like I’m reading the writing on the wall.

    Part of the problem here is that the Israel I love is not the Disneyland most of my fellow Americans seem to adore. Sure, I cry at Macadam and even feel moved at the kotel. But my Israel is one of shuks, cafes, shtiebels and hiking trails; of family and friends; of my alma mater on Mount Scopus and my favorite field in Talbieh (Churshat Hayareach, an open space continually threatened with destruction). Personally, I find the way many Americans strut in and out of Jerusalem for the holidays partly ridiculous and partly nauseating. So while the storybook Jerusalem remains more or less intact, I care less about it than the delicate, messy harmonies of the real ones.

    Worse than that, the mythic Israel is now actively affecting — I would say harming — the real one. The handful of rich American conservatives who have influenced Israeli politics lately have tended to prefer grandiose myths to the messy realities that should govern pragmatic decision making — and eventually, all those simplifications add up to dangerous distortions in policy. The “fantasy Israel,” the one many Americans seem largely to inhabit, doesn’t compensate for the erosion of the real one. On the contrary, it causes it.

    Nor am I myself immune; the third way in which my love for Israel is waning is that I’ve started to second-guess the love itself. How distant is my love of Churshat Hayareach from the sentimentality of a tourist at the Wall? (The Western one, that is, not the Separation one.) Am I not, too, an American moved, and thus partially blinded, by religious and national myth? How different am I, really, from those who value the poetry of the kotel over the prose of human rights? Am I really so different from those whose pro-Israel company I keep? It’s not that American Jews’ myths about Israel are false — it’s just that they have a way of shaping narrative, and papering over problems like, oh, the two million non-Jewish residents of Greater Israel.

    This is especially the case because those problems are often rendered invisible. When my more liberal friends used to call me out about Israeli politics, I would sometimes respond that the picture they had, shaped by Western media, was a distorted one. Really, I’d say, Israel is a wonderful place — a place where doors are left unlocked and musicians play in the street, and where an almost-extinguished culture rose from literal ashes.

    But, you know, a Southerner in the 1950s or an Afrikaner in the 1980s might say similar things. Yes, living within Green Line Israel, it’s possible to forget the Occupation (a term that certain Jewish news agencies feel obliged to scare quote). But maybe that’s part of the problem: The current regime of Separation (apart-ness, perhaps?) is all too effective. And so I’ve begun to second-guess even my own love of the place, wondering how much of it is built upon a foundation of deliberately constructed ignorance, a result of years of selective education. I sip my limonana, and five miles away a mother is harassed at a checkpoint. Which is reality and which fantasy?

    Finally, I think my love of Israel is fading because I feel personally implicated by its injustices, even though I have chosen to live in America and have relinquished my right to have any say over Israeli policy. (If only some of my countrymen would feel similarly.) On a recent trip to Berlin, I remarked to a friend that I felt more relaxed there than in Jerusalem. Part of it was that Berlin is a liberal city, and part of it was that I didn’t have to be frisked every time I walked into a cafe. But mostly, I think, I felt relaxed because while there was certainly plenty of political baggage around, none of it was mine. I’m not implicated in Germany’s wrong decisions (to be clear, I refer more to Turks in 2009 than to Jews in 1939), whereas I do feel implicated by Israel’s.

    This sense of implication is perhaps yet more fantasy — yet another American thinking he’s part of a country he doesn’t inhabit. But it comes with the territory of love, which is perhaps why I’m slowly disengaging. I understand why many Israelis feel fed up with the Palestinian problem and are ready to slam the door. But as an outsider, I no longer want to feel entangled by their decisions and implicated in their consequences. B’seder: It’s your choice to make… but count me out.

    In my heart, I still love the stones and trees of Jerusalem, even though I know that love is sentimental, problematic and shared with people I mistrust. I am still awed by the tkuma, the resurrection and rebirth of my ancient people. And, yes, I feel like underscoring, I still support the State of Israel, its right to exist and the rest. Most important, it is still, in part, my home.

    But especially on this side of the ocean, more and more of those who feel similarly have politics, agendas and overall experiences of Israel very different from mine. What they love is not what I love, and how they love is terrifying. And so while my love endures, my unease grows, and with it, the gnawing sense that this relationship is in trouble

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