And So the Rationing Begins?

I first heard this story the other night while driving on our long road trip. I, at least initially, didn’t think that the story meant much. They were discussing the fact that the guidelines for breast cancer screenings were changing from annually after 40 to annually after 50. The report stated that the “hazards” of annual screening before 50 were not worth the risk. I simply listened to the story and thought, “that sure seems like a weird reversal in recommendations.” The next day I was sitting around thinking, because it simply didn’t make any sense to me. The more I heard the story, the more puzzled I became. And then the idea hit me that this is really convenient timing while so much debate is going on around health care reform. So I decided to dig into the story a little more. I began to research and read the articles that were flying around about the new guidelines. I was surprised with some of the things that I found. And I realized that this could be the first step in conditioning the American public to accept less health care in the future.

So let’s discuss the basic facts first. The United States Preventive Service Task Force (USPSTF) announced this week that it recommends against annual mammograms for women age 40 to 49 because, they say, the benefits of testing do not outweigh the “harms” and risks. This is after years of telling women that beginning at age 40, they should have mammograms done annually to provide early detection opportunities and thus increase the odds of survival. As a result of the fact that the US is high on the list of countries with good screening and preventative care around breast cancer, the US is also one of the highest in the world in the 5 year survival rate for breast cancer. Here are the figures:

Five year relative breast cancer survival rates from CONCORD study.

Rank….Country….mean (95% confidence interval)
1……….Cuba……….84.0 (82.9, 85.2)
2……….US………….83.9 (83.7, 84.1)
3……….Canada……82.5 (81.9, 83.0)
4………Sweden……82.0 (81.2, 82.7)
5………Japan……….81.6 (79.5, 83.5)
6………Australia.. ..80.7 (80.1, 81.3)
8………France……..79.8 (78.2, 81.4)
22…….England……69.8 (69.5, 70.2)

I must have looked at 20 different charts from all across the spectrum from left leaning organizations, right leaning, medical associations, the World Health Organization. There were small variances but without exception, they all told us the same thing: The US has some of the best preventative and screening for cancer in the world. The US also has some of the highest cancer survival rates in the world. As I have covered in the past, in several types of cancers, we are the world leaders. As I recall we were the best in the world at breast, colon, rectum, and prostate cancers. And it appears that this is BECAUSE of the fact that we are screening earlier and treating earlier. Certainly the medical technology and expertise in the US plays a part, but I think the major cause is screening and preventative maintenance.

Yet the USPSTF comes out and tells us that their recommendation is that women cease and desist in annual screening during the 10 years that “the rest of the world” doesn’t do. I suppose if our goal is to fall back to the rest of the world in terms of survival rates then we should adopt the standards of the rest of the world. I would prefer to remain at the top of the survival rate list, thank you. The USPSTF also stated that women should not be taught how to do self examinations at home either.

Upon digging I also found that the USPSTF has also decided to issue new guidelines for the screening of prostate cancer in men. For those who are unaware, prostate cancer is a leading cancer killer for men. It is also one of the cancers where the US leads the way in screening and survival. However, the USPSTF has decided that the recommendations for screening be changed for this disease as well. They conclude there is inadequate evidence that the PSA improves healthcare outcomes at any age. And since men over 75 have a life expectancy of less than 10 years, for example, they are now recommending that men over the age of 75 not be screened (after all, the old folks are supposed to shut up and die, right?).

So I know some of you are saying, “who cares?” These are just recommendations, after all. We can simply ignore them and go ahead and get screened anyway. Not so fast folks. The fact is that many doctors submit to the guidelines that are issued by the USPSTF and change their practice procedures accordingly. Even when they may not want to, the insurance companies force them to, because the insurance companies generally will change their coverage based on the recommendations from the task force. And I have zero doubt that a government run health insurance company will rely on this report as proof that this is an expense that they are justified in not covering.

And would you be surprised to know that after digging further down the rabbit hole, I discovered that this study resulting in these recommendations was sponsored by….. The Department of Health and Human Services. Isn’t that interesting?

So the question that pops into my mind is whether or not this is simply the government beginning to condition the American public for the inevitable results of the blasphemous health care reform legislation. Because let’s face facts… if this legislation manages to finagle its way into law, we are screwed in terms of health care in the future. Not only will health care become more expensive, it will become less available. Doctors will leave the profession, while fewer new doctors enter the profession. The increase in demand for services will be massive because all of the sudden we will see a whole new slew of folks getting “free” health care. Resources will decline while demand goes up. And what does that mean?


Oh, the naysayers will call me crazy. The bleeding hearts will deny the existence of reason on this issue. Mathius will retreat to his alternate reality (sorry Matt, I couldn’t help myself after being amused by your ramblings about such yesterday, I do offer that in jest). What they won’t be able to do is fall back on facts, reason, or the simple mechanics of the economic machine. We see rationing in many different forms in all of the countries that have gone before us in ruining their health care systems. Canada, UK, France, you name it. Rationing exists in all those places. We have discussed it before. This is not a debate over whether Universal Health Care is a good or bad thing. We have other days and other threads for that coming soon. This is a simple realization that the path we are going down leads to rationing.

And the only way you can get away with rationing in the US with a free population is to convince them that the things being rationed are not needed or necessary in the first place. Hence, a series of studies finding that preventative care is not effective for more people when the facts tell us otherwise. It isn’t lost on me, either, that the USPSTF comment on prostate cancer screening for men over 75 wasn’t warranted because of life expectancy versus benefit. I can’t be sure, but that certainly sounds a little like the “death panel” arguments that the liberals have sworn to us are ludicrous.

So, in short, I see this as a first foray into the world of convincing Americans that certain procedures that have been proven effective, and preached as important for 50 years, are somehow not needed, ineffective, and therefore, not going to be covered in future insurance claims. So let’s discuss rationing. Let’s discuss whether these types of reports have anything to do with the rationing that I think will happen should the Pelosi-ites pass this BS.

By the way, I got the chart above from this site:

The Seminal » Those low UK breast cancer survival rates: Will conservative proposals for reform lead the US to the UK’s problems?


  1. USPSTF recommendations will most likely be the main factors in the decisions made by the insurance industry, but, those decisions can be appealled, oftento the benefit of the patient. When/If the govt takes over, govt beurocracy will make these recommendations the rule. They cannot cut welfare costs without cutting benefits, because they have proven they cannot stop fraud and waste.

    “Death Panels” are a real concern for me, because they will become fact if the Dumbacrats get their way. With Medicae and SS soon to go bankrupt, they must find ways to lower the population of eldely to either avoid, or lesson the damage. Hint, The government cares nothing for us, they do not care about our elders or our kids, it’s money and power that drives their decisions. I’m not sure what can be done to stop them, but if they pass this, they need to be unemployed ASAP.

    Have a great day! I’ll be reading along and will post again after work.


    • Forgot to check the box, I’m getting old, have sometimers desease.

    • Bottom Line says:

      G-Man – “I’m not sure what can be done to stop them, but if they pass this, they need to be unemployed ASAP.”

      “I’m not sure what can be done to stop them,…”

      BL – That’s the real question. How to stop them? Allow me to offer a few thoughts…

      I think it’s time to start organizing that 100 million dissatisfied Americans.

      It’s time to start signing petitions and submitting them to SCOTUS.

      It’s time to start filing lawsuits against unconstitutional government.

      It’s time to start to start making a corporate boycott shit-list.

      It’s time to confront the taxman.

      It’s time to think outside the box at the voting booth.

      It’s time to start pushing back in a big way.

      It starts with organization.

      So how do you organize 100 million dissatisfied Americans?

      • Bottom Line,

        You cannot stop them. They are systemic and now merged into the system that trying to stop them will kill the body.

        However, they are killing the body anyway.

        The only thing you can do is prepare.

        (1) Get a good doctor right now and build a personal relationship. You will need to skip ahead of the line if you or family get sick and he will only do that for cash and for ‘friends’.

        (2) Start now and get healthy and maintain it. Health is expensive in money and time. However, in 10 years, you will die if you get sick.

        • Nix that Black Flag, that is nothing but a defeatist attitude – that attitude and suggestion of yours does nothing but breed and advocate corruption . . . Even a MENSA member can understand that!

          BTW – Do you know what the english translation of MENSA is?

          • Futile action, Papa, is worse than no action.

            It consumes energy that could be used else where instead of on something that cannot be moved.

            You hold the belief that as long as your running in one spot, the world might just spin under your feet and you’ll reach your destination.

            Good luck with that!

            Yeah, a Table.

            Good for banging one’s head on sometimes when I talk with those who love running in one spot.

          • Bottom Line says:


            I can certainly appreciate realism. Often I have argued that the glass isn’t half empty OR full. The glass is irrelevant. The real question is …exactly how much liquid is there? And where does that amount stand, reletive to the goal?

            You may be right in your assessment of futility, but I know from experience that no matter the odds…


            If the odds are already overwhelmingly against you, then there is nothing more to lose by trying than by not trying.

            Might as well go for it balls to the wall pedal to the metal hail mary %^$# it style.

            It’s time to take it back.

          • Bottom Line says:

            Mensa is latin for Table

          • Papadawg and Bottom line:

            What BF is really saying is that we need to “attack in a different direction”.

            Make more sense now Dawg?


            • Bottom Line says:


              We have a brilliant think tank here at SUFA.

              Lets get the ball rolling.

              How then, do we do it?

              Any suggestions?

              • BL

                Do you know exactly what the goal is?

              • Bottom Line says:

                Yes JAC,

                The goal is to restore our republic.

              • BL

                Which Republic?

                The one they gave us, or the one they promised us?

                Restore or even resurrect our Republic is a slogan. Not a goal.

                We need metrics to know if you reach your goal.

                Have you identified the philosophical foundaton you are going to work from in this effort?

              • Bottom Line says:

                JAC – “Restore or even resurrect our Republic is a slogan. Not a goal.”

                BL – Sure it’s a goal. We are deviating from what was given and what has been built. We need to stay on track and do some major spring cleaning, so to speak. I’m not sure I agree that resurrect is the right word. Our republic still stands, it’s just in need of some we the people style TLC and maintenance.

                JAC – “Have you identified the philosophical foundaton you are going to work from in this effort?

                BL – It’s not “I”, but rather “WE” …as in millions. I’m just an insignificant nobody.

                …And I’m not sure I understand your question, as it pertains to the obvious.

            • Thanks JAC for the far better answer.

              Sometimes I forget my daughter’s lesson to me..

              “Dad, can you tell me what this does/mean/work?

              But please, Dad, not the 3 hour lecture starting with the theory of the beginning of the Universe????”

      • Good for you, BL, start by organizing in your own neighborhood and get the MSM interested in your cause.

        But do not stop there. Scream and protest at the top of your lungs!

        Remember the first rule of engineering – the squeeky wheel gets the most oil!

        Just my not-so-humble opinion!

        • Bottom Line says:

          Thank you for your encouragement, but I think it’s past sqeeky wheels and oil.

          Noise has been made and they dont care.

          It’s time to apply pressure.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      G-Man – what gives sir?

      “USPSTF recommendations will most likely be the main factors in the decisions made by the insurance industry”

      – Is this a “G-hunch” or you know something I do not?

      ““Death Panels” are a real concern for me, because they will become fact if the Dumbacrats get their way”

      – Huh? Craziness. C’mon people – is this the Fox news blog or SOFA?

      • RWBoveroux says:

        What is SOFA?? (other than something to sleep/sit on??) 🙂

      • RWBoveroux says:


        No matter what you want to call them, there are going to be groups of people who are going to make decisions on who gets what treatment. They exist now in the medical review panels that insurance companies have to decide what treatment is paid for. Now with this abortion of a bill, it is going to be run by the federal government.

        Please stop being caught up in the terminology and deal with the facts behind the terms.

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

        ““USPSTF recommendations will most likely be the main factors in the decisions made by the insurance industry”

        – Is this a “G-hunch” or you know something I do not?”

        Well, the insurance industry gets its guidance from SOMEWHERE, right? If the government makes the determination that mammograms are UNNECESSARY prior to age 50, why should any insurance (public or private) be forced to pay for an unnecessary screening?

        You are very naive if you think this will not play a role in what is and is not covered by private (or public) insurance.

        It is all about “managing costs”. Especially when it comes to public healthcare, managing costs is FAR more important than saving lives. You can bank on that.

      • “USPSTF recommendations will most likely be the main factors in the decisions made by the insurance industry”

        – Is this a “G-hunch” or you know something I do not?

        Do a little research Ray. What exactly do you think the US Preventative Service Task Force was created to do and what purpose do they have if not to set guidelines for the health industry. I think you are being argumentative and refusing to consider the reality of what we are dealing with here.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          No USW – I am simply asking people to stick to the facts – something you carp constantly on but will not apply the same consistently if you do not feel it merited to defend your position.

          The United States Preventive (not preventative) Service Task Force is tasked with creating guidelines – guidelines are not policy, they are not law, they are not requirements that an entity is forced into accepting or adhering to by the issuing entity. An entity may choose to accept the guidelines in whole or part or reject them altogether. I know our Doctors were already following guidelines more associated with the new guidance rather than the old.

          The problem USW is your connection between the guidelines and rationing is piss poor at best and a juvenile attempt to fearmonger. Please get Jerry Maguire on me and show me the money.

      • Actually Ray, I do no something you may not. I actually work in the healthcare industry, and have very good inside knowledge of the inner workings, including how and why doctors are obligated to abide by government “recommendations”.

        If you would like me to go into detail, I will, just for you. Considering you offer no proof of your position, I find your argument rather borish.

        Hope today finds you well!


        • Ray Hawkins says:

          What was my position G? That I was asking for some evidence of your lack of argument? Guess what – I have also spent considerable time in the Healthcare/Life Sciences field – both in the business side and technology side. My clients spanned the F100 to the F1000 to the SMB – to ascertain that they would all follow the guidelines as issued without risk assessing the impact relative to their business model is an error.

          • Ray, I wasn’t making an argument.

            That was a statement, based on today’s knowledge of the system. After recent negotiations concerning next years coverage, the future of healthcare looks bleak at best if this BS takeover occurs. I live it my friend, today, and next month. USW’s opinion is very close to those in the business. Unless you can find someone out there who can claim otherwise, I’m sticking to what I know as fact. Besides, I have nothing else to do tonight, so lets chat!


  2. RWBoveroux says:

    USW, you are a little bit behind the times on this. THERE IS ALREADY RATIONING OF CARE GOING ON RIGHT NOW!! If the current wait to see a doctor is approximately 20 days currently, and there are currently 40+ million who don’t have ins, there HAS TO BE MORE RATIONING when those 40+ million get coverage. THERE PLAIN AND SIMPLE AIN’T ENOUGH DOCS TO ASSIST THE POPULATION. What is the ratio going to be when these 40+ million now have access to health insurance?

    This is what is going to happen:
    I had cellulitous in my right leg in the beginning of August. I was in severe pain and need to see a Dr. However, my Doc did not have any time to see me, so I had to go to the ER of the local hospital. I have pretty good ins., but I ended up paying 250 plus co-pays for the meds, by the time the day was over. I could have had the same work done at my Dr’s office for 25 plus med co-pays IF I HAD BEEN ABLE TO SEE MY DR!!

    • I agree that rationing is already happening.

      • I don’t think RW’s story accounts for rationing, it more equates to availablilty and the lack of doctors we currently have in this country. I also believe that what we are dealing with today is more akin to manipulation.

        Good article USW!


  3. rwboveroux says:

    Here is something more. Haven’t read it, but interesting title.,2933,575891,00.html

    • RWBoveroux says:

      OOPS!! The title is actually:


      I actually thought it would show up in the link. My bad.

  4. Ray Hawkins says:

    Wow USW – this is one of the more irresponsible articles you have written. Disappointing……

    “As I recall we were the best in the world at breast, colon, rectum, and prostate cancers. And it appears that this is BECAUSE of the fact that we are screening earlier and treating earlier. Certainly the medical technology and expertise in the US plays a part, but I think the major cause is screening and preventative maintenance.”

    – C’mon USW – operative here is “it appears” and “but I think” – its tough to swallow the rest of your assessment when you APPEAR to be relying more on your own opinion rather than something factual that can stand on its own – this is your setup that leads to your conclusion later on = weak.

    “The fact is that many doctors submit to the guidelines that are issued by the USPSTF and change their practice procedures accordingly. Even when they may not want to, the insurance companies force them to, because the insurance companies generally will change their coverage based on the recommendations from the task force.”

    – Can you reference this please? While it may be easy to say “yeah, sure, makes sense” – I am not understanding where you draw this conclusion from and are willing to listen.

    “And would you be surprised to know that after digging further down the rabbit hole, I discovered that this study resulting in these recommendations was sponsored by….. The Department of Health and Human Services. Isn’t that interesting?”

    – Not it isn’t interesting – it is more fearmongering by you. Is there a reason you haven’t bothered to tell the readers when this study was initiated? Or speak to the process by which these reports are issued? I’m asking you to stop baking conspiracy theories that diminish the quality of occasionally otherwise intelligent research and writing……

    “What they won’t be able to do is fall back on facts, reason, or the simple mechanics of the economic machine.”

    – And what facts have you offered to support some this ridiculous IRRESPONSIBLE argument/notion of rationing? Had the resident conspiracy theorists on this blog written this I would say “yep, nothing here, move on” – but sheesh! You can do better than this garbage!

    • RWBoveroux says:


      As I mentioned above, there is NO CHOICE BUT RATIONING once a bill gets through congress. There simply is not enough docs to handle more patients. This will result in what happened to me. People with issues that can be handled in an office visit will end up in the ER. This will result in greater costs either to the patient or to the government run health plan. Costs will go up, quality will probably go down, and no one is better off (other than the bureaucrats this boondoggle will create.)

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        RWBoveroux – so please show me the linkage between the screening guidance and Health Care reform. You are making connections that do not exist.

        Your argument is not making sense to me either with respect to the guidance – lets say the guidance becomes policy – and the counter is that hundreds/thousands/millions will not receive care early enough in the cycle (your notion of rationing) – so what happens on the backend? A system overwhelmed by people that are not stage x in their cancer because we ‘think’ (but cannot prove) that some other result would have occurred had they been screened earlier? I guess you’re saying it is rationing up and down the foodchain – what am I going to hear next? ***PROOF*** that death panels will have to exist?

        Simply crazy.

        • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


          Not really crazy – you see, the liberals cannot have it both ways!

          You cannot say, “We are going to save money by providing more preventative healthcare which will catch diseases earlier and make them easier and less expensive to cure” out of one side of your mouth, and then out of the other side of your mouth say, “we are recommending that women not get mammograms until age 50, and after age 50 only get one every other year instead of anually.”

          To the average woman, this smacks of hypocrisy. (It does to most men as well, but men don’t usually get breast cancer, so we don’t really relate to this issue in the way that women do).

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            Peter – once again –

            (a) I have not read the study

            (b) Having more preventive care can mean a lot of things – to me personally – that does not mean more preventive care for S&G’s. It must demonstrate some level of effectiveness and value in so far as early detection of whatever particular ill occurs. Not being trained in medical science, is it possible that no matter what recommended age is used to target preventive testing we still have some people that fall under the age threshold and are not detected? Sure. Do I acknowledge that there is nothing to guarantee 100% efficacy? Absolutely.

            (c) I have to see any factually supported argument that connects the guidance to rationing. So keep trying.

            • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


              The study shows that for every woman getting a mammographic screening between the age of 40 and 50, 1 life is saved for every 1900 screenings.

              The study also shows that for every woman getting a mammographic screening between the age of 50 and 60, 1 life is saved for every 1300 screenings.

              Apparently, 1 life saved for 1300 screenings is cost effective, while 1 life saved for 1900 screenings is NOT cost effective?

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                Peter – in analyzing only your statement – it is not that the later is not cost effective, but less cost effective than the former.

    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


      Just what, according to almost EVERYONE supporting “The Health Care Bill” is SUPPOSED to bring down costs?


      What is a mammogram?

      What is a pap smear?

      Last I checked, these were preventative care?

      I thought MORE preventative care was supposed to BRING DOWN costs by catching these diseases earlier in their progression, thus making them easier and less expensive to treat, no?

      Or did the study, which has been going on for years now, show that the costs of (and risks associated with) such preventative care were much larger compared to the benefits?

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        Peter – you’re initiating a different argument.

        I have not read the study – but I thought the conclusion was that existing guidance showed that the benefit derived from current screening was very small compared to the costs and improper treatment resulting from screening too early? Under the opposite argument when is the proper time to start screening?

        • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


          We all, at least annecdotally, know of at least 1 woman that has had breast cancer in her 40s, and it has been caught through self-examination and mammography. I personally know of several such women.

          If these women had had to wait until 50 for screenings, they would likely be dead.

          Is it now your position that this is acceptable if the cost of early screening is too high relative to the “benefits”?

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            Peter – you are asking me to argue the degree to which medical processes can be 100% effective. That is an argument neither one of us can be completely certain of. Surely there will be an outlier that disproves any conceivable variable that is used to drive screening. To my understanding it is best based on risk factors. If you know of a different more effective approach I’d love to hear it.

            • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


              You would normally be one of the people arguing that preventative care did indeed reduce the overall cost of medical care, no?

              Funny how you change your tune when need be 🙂

              No test is ever 100% effective. No treatment is ever 100% effective.

              Does that now mean to you that all tests and all treatments should be eliminated because anything short of 100% effective is not cost-effective?

              I think even you would realize that that is a silly argument to be making.

              As I stated above, the actual study says that mammograms save 1 life per 1900 screenings betweeen age 40 and 50, and they save 1 life per 1300 screenings between age 50 and 60.

              So… the GOVERNMENT is basically deciding that 1/1900 is not cost effective, but 1/1300 IS cost effective… sounds like an attempt at rationing to me!

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                The government has not decided anything Peter – you made that up.

                I have not argued against preventive care – if preventive care can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree of effectiveness then sure, I would support it. But I would not support preventive care for the hell of doing it. I would not favor getting a weekly digital rectal examination if there is not demonstrable evidence that shows this will be effective in early detection and prevention of cancer.

                And no – I’m not an absolutist – a test can be acceptable and reasonable and appropriate even if it is not 100% accurate or predictable – that is the inherent risk in medicine.

              • Ray:

                “I have not argued against preventive care – if preventive care can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree of effectiveness then sure, ”

                You should recongize by now the trap you set for yourself.

                Who gets to decide what is “reasonable degree of effectiveness”?

    • Is it really so irresponsible to recognize the call for a government health care service while a government agency closely linked to health care puts out a report like this?

      I would call you irresponsible for disregarding it, though I do agree that we need to look at the facts.

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        JB – you are wrong – I never said I was disregarding the report. I am pointing out the gross negligence in the author using his own opinion (which he stated as such) to make conclusions on a link between the report and rationing and later states there is somehow fact supporting this.

        • What you seem to be saying is that it is somehow wrong to gather information and then draw conclusions based on the information. Is it your argument that we have to wait to see the actual outcome before we are allowed to assess the probable outcome?

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            V – I am simply stating and paraphrasing the author’s own words that a sound argument here is based on fact. He has offered a conclusion that the screening guidance is somehow the precursor to rationing. He has offered ZERO facts to support such a claim.

            • v. Holland says:

              Actually he has offered several facts to support that changing the recommendations is suspicious-just the timing is one-the good record we have in catching breast cancer is another-the contradiction of using preventative care as a reason for health care at the same time they are calling on research to see if our current recommendations for preventative care are good and just happening to come up with such a huge difference in what is now being recommended is high suspicious-I’d say that is plenty of facts to base a conclusion on-without being grossly negligent.

              • Thank you V. But remember when Ray gets in this mode there is little that can be said that will change his opinion. He doesn’t like the conclusions I draw, therefore he is going to reach for any argument that negates them. His hope is that the world will ignore what I present, and that conversation will be stifled by the “need” to present citations with every statement that is made.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                Read your own words USW – “it appears” & “but I think” – those are words used when someone does not have something factual they can point to. Don’t get pissed just because I am asking to hold yourself to the standard you demand of others. You have offered zero proof that the issued guidelines are in fact a precursor to rationing.

              • Ray Hawkins says:

                OK V – what is the root of the word “Suspicious”? Maybe its “SUSPECT” – as in, “shit, I ain’t sure, but I suspect there is a connection”

                A lot of people suspected Barack Obama was born in Kenya. It was proven he was not.

                A lot of people suspected there was another shooter on the grassy knoll – it have never been proven there was.

                The timing of the release of the report IS NOT A FACT that links the report to this form/version of rationing (the kill Granny-kind).

                “the good record we have in catching breast cancer is another”

                – No, you are wrong again – a good record does not mean we are pursuing the most effective strategy. The Phillies were a good team this year, but they did not win the World Series – which means they did not have the most productive or effective strategy/approach

                “the contradiction of using preventative care as a reason for health care”

                – Nope – it is not a reason for healthcare, it is a part of or aspect of healthcare

                “at the same time they are calling on research to see if our current recommendations for preventative care are good”

                – So that’s a bad thing? Retesting and challenging your underlying assumptions is bad/wrong?

                “and just happening to come up with such a huge difference in what is now being recommended is high suspicious”

                – Try reading the work – do you have issue with the research methodology or approach or testing instruments or analysis or conclusions? Or – did you not read the work and are looking for another reason to dogpile on anything that is perceived as different in healthcare (a la Hannity, a la Beck, a la Rush)?

                “I’d say that is plenty of facts to base a conclusion on-without being grossly negligent.”

                – I’d say none of what offered is factual but rather opinion. Go re-read your posting.

              • Suspecting is what is always used to form a hypothesis. Second a fact is still a fact even if you can improve on something. Thirdly a 10 year jump every 2 years is a huge difference when you are talking about cancer. Now I take these 3 facts and I think coming to the conclusion that there is a connection is a reasonable conclusion to make. Opinion based on fact is an hypothesis, you don’t have to agree with the hypothesis but reaching the conclusion that someone is grossly negligent because you want to argue that a fact shouldn’t be used as a fact is just argumentative-I’m not saying that the article proves there is a connection, I’m saying that he presented enough facts to form a reasonable hypothesis. Now whoever reads the article can make up their own mind on whether they agree.

    • Wow USW – this is one of the more irresponsible articles you have written. Disappointing……

      I would certainly expect you to be disappointed. But I have to tell you, you sound an awful lot like the Black Knight today. If you want to ignore the realities that we are seeing… that’s fine. I will not.

      – C’mon USW – operative here is “it appears” and “but I think” – its tough to swallow the rest of your assessment when you APPEAR to be relying more on your own opinion rather than something factual that can stand on its own – this is your setup that leads to your conclusion later on = weak.

      Perhaps you were in a hurry and missed this: “I must have looked at 20 different charts from all across the spectrum from left leaning organizations, right leaning, medical associations, the World Health Organization. There were small variances but without exception, they all told us the same thing: The US has some of the best preventative and screening for cancer in the world. The US also has some of the highest cancer survival rates in the world.”

      What kills me is that you want to argue over what I think or what it appears to me to be simply because of the way it was worded. So do you dispute what I was saying in the paragraph you so eloquently bashed? That paragraph stated that we are the best at surviving cancer and we have better screening for cancer than most of the world. That is what I was “thinking” and “appearing” on. Instead of whining over my word choice, show me any shred of evidence that I am wrong. I didn’t feel the need to cite all 20 things I read when we have already covered the cancer results and screening many times before at SUFA. But since you are not willing to simply accept something as simple as this as fact:

      “The fact is that many doctors submit to the guidelines that are issued by the USPSTF and change their practice procedures accordingly. Even when they may not want to, the insurance companies force them to, because the insurance companies generally will change their coverage based on the recommendations from the task force.”

      – Can you reference this please? While it may be easy to say “yeah, sure, makes sense” – I am not understanding where you draw this conclusion from and are willing to listen.

      Click to access 117.full.pdf

      I can give you more if you need it. Thus far, however, it doesn’t seem that you are interested in discussing the topic, but rather more interested in saying how irresponsible it is for me to have an opinion that others read.

      “And would you be surprised to know that after digging further down the rabbit hole, I discovered that this study resulting in these recommendations was sponsored by….. The Department of Health and Human Services. Isn’t that interesting?”

      – Not it isn’t interesting – it is more fearmongering by you. Is there a reason you haven’t bothered to tell the readers when this study was initiated? Or speak to the process by which these reports are issued? I’m asking you to stop baking conspiracy theories that diminish the quality of occasionally otherwise intelligent research and writing……

      Yes there is a reason I didn’t tell the readers when it was initiated. That reason is that it doesn’t matter. It matters to you because if it was started under a Republican President, that gives you license to ignore it. You can throw out your claim that these people started it so it is OK, or these people started it so you are hypocrites to oppose it, claims. I understand fully that both sides of the aisle in Washington do not have the best interests of the people at heart. Understanding such, it doesn’t matter a bit to me which party started the task force. It also doesn’t matter to me how these reports are issued. What matters to me is what the results are and whether they are a sign of something changing in the way government does things. It appears so to me. You are allowing your cynicism of everything Republican or critical of Dems get in the way of your thinking process.

      Rationing is not a conspiracy theory Ray. It is a reality that we see throughout the health industry, both here and even more abroad. I believe that this is actually a pavlovian response that I mentioned death panels in the post. If you see those words, you think of Sarah Palin and your vision goes red and you lose control.

      What they won’t be able to do is fall back on facts, reason, or the simple mechanics of the economic machine.”

      – And what facts have you offered to support some this ridiculous IRRESPONSIBLE argument/notion of rationing? Had the resident conspiracy theorists on this blog written this I would say “yep, nothing here, move on” – but sheesh! You can do better than this garbage!

      Exactly what facts are you disputing Ray? Thus far your only argument is that I didn’t have enough citations with my opinion. Fine, I gave you a couple. What is irresponsible is allowing your left leaning bias to get in the way of responsible discussion. I write a blog. In it I offer my opinions beased on the research I do. It is not a term paper. It is a blog. The topics are meant to foster discussion and allow us to debate the issues. Throughout any given day, there will be dozens of links provided during the discussion.

      I think that you are the irresponsible one when you attempt to limit discussion by disagreeing to the style of communication. The responsible thing for us to do is have discussions on what is going on and come to some sort of conclusions based on what we all find. Your apparent trust of the government and the way they do things can be dangerous for you. I question them because they continue to show me examples of not having my interests at heart. Instead, you question my methods and motives because you don’t want the discussions to happen that will ferret out the opinions on the issues.

      Lighten up Ray. My opinions on the subject reach a couple thousand people a day. The USPSTF recommendations reach millions. Perhaps you should instead question their methodology, reasoning, and purpose. A healthy dose of skepticism would do you well my friend.

      You know I respect your opinions. But your rant this morning comes across as simply having a closed mind to the realities that rationing is happening in many places and this could be a step towards implementing more of it. Free your mind, Ray. Your a$$ will follow.

  5. Bee in my Bonnet says:

    In Canada, breast screening starts at 50 yrs old, however, my physician is uncomfortable with that age as she has found many of her paients acquiring breast cancer in their 40’s. She started sending me for mammograms when I was 43. Kudos to her for bucking the system.

    • Same here Bee. Cancer in my area is higher than normal and breast cancer is almost common if it could ever be such. Early detection is without a doubt the best method of securing your own survival where cancer is concerned. Medline and Medscape are filled with studies done on direct increases in survivability where early detection is concerned. In this current case of testing the waters for acceptance of “triage” medicine, someone has likely once again shaved the data.

      As a cancer survivor, I’ll argue early detection VS saving the tax coffers for some politico’s preferred spending habit with anyone.

      • I really could have sworn that preventative medicine has been preached as the best way to save money and lives-so what is this garbage.

        • Sorry pushed that button too soon-I guess now the interest is only in money.

        • I’d call it a dry run on triage medicine to see how the American citizenry and physicians react. Unfortunately for them:

          According to the National Cancer Institute, white, non-Hispanic women have the highest overall incidence rate for breast cancer among U.S. racial/ethnic groups, while Korean American women have the lowest rate. Among women ages 40-50, African American women have a higher incidence of breast cancer than white women. African American women also have the highest death rate from breast cancer; Chinese American women have the lowest death rate.

          The black community will be all over this at some point.

  6. I was very concerned by the two new guide lines that were put out about women tests. As a person who has breast cancer history in her family, getting tested early is key.
    As far as the Pap test goes, you are suppose to start when you begin to be sexually active. It was not based on a age. I am confused why they are beginning to start with this, nothing trying to scare the yeck out of people.

    Preventive care is the best way to catch illness early. Which in some case give a excellent chance of living a long term life.

    • Yes preventative care is the best way to catch illness early-I watched my sister die because of breast cancer in her early 50’s. Why because she decided not to get a mammogram at 40-By the time she got one it was too late-now this was her decision but it was a stupid decision and the people who are supposed to be making recommendations that are meant to save lives really should keep the saving of lives as the top priority. I’d much rather be scared by a false positive, than be killed by waiting too long.

  7. Out of context USW but I have to raise the alarm here:


    Global warming religion caught red handed. Fabricating results not only commonplace but they were well aware of their evil deeds and while some held reservations about the possible fallout, they continued to tow the line on this colossal lie. THIS IS HUGE NEWS!

    Now if they put these hundreds of billions of dollars into cancer and aids research…

  8. Hi All,

    I’m just glad this recommendation came out now so a few more eyes will be opened; perhaps in time to stop the monopoly from happening.

    Heading out shortly to Camp Randall in Madison; our high school football team made it to state. Go Warriors!

    Enjoy the day everyone~

  9. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    Off-topic for today, but all the government is currently doing is trying to re-inflate the housing bubble using the same questionable practices that caused the bubbble in the first place (and the re-inflation isn’t working all that well so far…)

  10. ra⋅tion
      /ˈræʃən, ˈreɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rash-uhn, rey-shuhn]

    1. a fixed allowance of provisions or food, esp. for soldiers or sailors or for civilians during a shortage: a daily ration of meat and bread.
    2. an allotted amount: They finally saved up enough gas rations for the trip.
    3. rations,
    a. provisions: Enough rations were brought along to feed all the marchers.
    b. Chiefly South Atlantic States. food or meals: The old hotel still has the best rations in town.
    –verb (used with object)
    4. to supply, apportion, or distribute as rations (often fol. by out): to ration out food to an army.
    5. to supply or provide with rations: to ration an army with food.
    6. to restrict the consumption of (a commodity, food, etc.): to ration meat during war.
    7. to restrict the consumption of (a consumer): The civilian population was rationed while the war lasted.

    Hmmmmm… Let me see if I have this straight. There are those that feel that insurance companies are already “rationing” care. Now, I have supplemental coverage and my coverage denies PAYMENT for certain things. I do not see this fitting the definition of rationing. They are just not going to pay for something. I can live with this. The insurance company is not saying you cannot have it…and that it is not available. They are saying we just will not pay for it. If I want a particular procedure and my insurance company will not pay for it…too bad for me. I will have to pony up the dough or do without or seek new insurance. BUT, the choice is mine. (Please, no diatribe about non affordability being a form of rationing…it is not.)

    I see a distinct difference here according to Senator Reid’s statement yesterday. His comments yesterday were very scary. The gist of it was, in a single payer system, it is inevitable that there will be denial of some services. Ok…denial of services is not restricting them….it means they ain’t gonna be there. Who makes this choice? Oh, yes, it is NOT a panel…I forgot. It is a…ummmm…collection of well intended persons.

    BUT, some of you will say, the private option will still be there. To that I will say…I am not so sure. I see the government phasing out the private medical practice or severely limiting it over the next five years. I see it being eliminated through taxes and restrictions coming from these wonderful czars that many of you feel is the new era of governing and have the good of the people at heart.(Talk about Kool Aid) Is this fear mongering? I certainly hope so. I have a right to my opinion and I am so stating it. So, I think everyone needs to look at reality…not “hope”. If I was an employer, why would I not dump my employees on the government? Hell, the staff just to administer health programs in the private sector is staggering. So, why not just layoff that staff and let the government handle it? Much easier and cheaper. A responsible and prudent business person will do this. There is no moral or ethical reason to not do it. Of course, that would increase the unemployment ranks and put them on the government teat. The government will “feel sorry” for them and increase the unemployment benefits to 24 and maybe even 36 months. But, what the hell….what is another several billion dollars ten years down the road. We are already at 34% of our gross income to service interest only now…HELL…we have another 66% to go to just to service our interest. Forget the debt load increasing and the interest that goes with it. Oh, sorry, I got off subject. I just feel sorry for my kids and grand kids.

    Back to health….so, we will have a single payer system. This Senate bill DOES, my friends, have provisions in it that relate to government panels making decisions on what health care is allowed and not allowed. However, the difference will be….”allowed”. Not a refusal to pay. It will not be there. Gone. Kaput. Outta here. Zippo (not the lighter). So, lets extrapolate, for the benefit of those that are proponents of the single payer system and the “tax the crap outta the rich” crowd…. Let’s assume you are on the public option. You are over 65. Medicaid/Medicare is now rationed. (Please, the fraud and waste issue to pay for this is bullshit and everyone knows it). There is a procedure that needs to be done…perhaps a life saving procedure but it is rationed..not eliminated…but rationed. You have to wait your turn, (at the behest of a panel)….you die. There were no other options in the private sector because the private sector has been eliminated or severely curtailed as a result of our Congressional taxing authority…or more doctors are not available because there is no incentive to be a doctor…specialized care is gone. Now…explain to me why this is not a death panel?

    But what do I know. I am the same lame brained retired Colonel that got lambasted on here for even suggesting that the nuclear ambitions of Iran were not peaceful. How could I be so insensitive? Forget about the IAEA report yesterday that said Iran has decided not to accept any of the world community suggestions and has now developed a plutonium trigger device. But, of course, a plutonium trigger device is needed for a power grid….how stupid of me.

    Ok, I am now going to be labeled an alarmist. I think that I need to be. The reality of the single payer system run by the government is this. You want true denial of health care? DENIAL IS NOT RATIONING…go the single payer system as it is currently styled. Tax the cosmetic surgeons because it is NOT fair that some people get new boobs or lipo while others don’t, tax the employers…they are the culprit, tax the rich (they can afford it), tax the service industry, tax the prosthetic makers, tax, as personal property, the prosthetic (bet most of you did not know that one), tax the person that does not choose the government option…go ahead…tax tax tax. Oh, sorry,,,,I should say…fine. I forgot that Nancy Pelosi does not see a fine as a tax…there I go again being stupid. Oh, yes….throw the SOB in jail that opts out. Zieg Heil. Anyone who cares for himself should be in jail for not succumbing to the collective. We are the Borg. Pay no attention to the fact that all this money is going to be collected for five years before one single benefit comes from it…we do have to pay Acorn International and GM China more money to ship offshore…and, of course, fund more Congressional pay raises like last year.

    But…I am a lame brained alarmist. Pay no attention to me.


    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

      How do you ensure that a nation will lose the majority of its wealth?

      Make it more economically beneficial for the wealthy to live elsewhere!

      Very soon there will only be two types of people left in this country if we continue down the “yellow brick road”… the government, and the people who are almost completely dependent upon the government.

      It used to be that the most successful people in this country headed up companies which produced actual goods. Now the highest paid people in this country move fiat money around from one location to another in an attempt to “show a profit”. This movement of fiat money around a game-board PRODUCES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      • But….”click-click-click” There’s no place like home.

        • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

          Toto, I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore…

          • Unfortunately we are, I really wish all this was just a dream.

          • Peter B,

            My thoughts exactly. This is not the same country we had ten years ago. My mother is furious with me because I’m looking for a new country to call home. She says America is THE best country on the planet. At the moment, not by much, and in five or ten years, probably not even close. The problem is the majority of Americans who elect and follow the neo-socialists. I think as a people, we are too far gone to recover. I’m with Black Flag. We shouldn’t waste our valuable resources trying to fight this. In fact, I think we should ‘hand ’em the rope’ if you know what I mean. The sooner the average American feels the pain, the sooner they’ll wake up. Until that happens, we’re trying to save people who don’t want to be saved.

            • Cyndi P:

              I couldn’t agree more. I’m at the preparation stage. The system will collapse. I hope it lasts a little longer as I am not prepared.

              I love your statement, “We’re trying to save people who don’t want to be saved.”

              • Birdman,

                I’m thrice divorced. Who says I didn’t learn anything??

                I guess you’ve seen it before in your professional dealings, eh?


                I’m hoping for rebirth. If we keep on keepin’ on, what’s the best we can hope for? Okay, so we defeat health care reform and cap and tax, until the Leftists have increased their numbers and hold on power, and try again. All we will have done is delay the end. The only two other options I see are armed revolt, and the Cloward-Piven strategy. The Cloward-Piven strategy will bring the whole thing down sooner or later, probably sooner judging by the mess we’re in. Armed revolt is something we all would like avoid. I’m sure there are people in government who would love violence. That way they’d have the perfect excuse to sieze more power while having someone else to blame. I’m guessing there are plenty of Americans who would side with the government. I say its better to let the whole thing collapse under its own weight.

            • Bottom Line says:

              Order out of chaos.

              • BL”

                I thought that before we went to Irag.

                If we are objective and logical I must say that theory doesn’t seem to hold.

                Perhaps out of chaos comes rebirth. Perhaps not order but rebirth.

                Ie Resurrection of the America promised yet never achieved.

              • BL,

                Had an interesting conversation with a colleague about order vs chaos.

                “Chaos always wins because it is o well organized”

                Chaos has a bad rap – most assign “disorder” to the definition – but that isn’t right.

                Chaos exists as a consequence of the inability to predict the future – it actually is quite orderly – but merely unpredictable.

              • Bottom Line says:

                Chaos is orderly because it is self balancing and regulated by chance.

                Chaos is what gives birth to order, as order is the only answer to chaos.

                It has to balance itself.

                Order out of chaos.

    • D13:

      Just wanted to say, OUTSTANDING job.

      The comments show that ALL of us forget that “insurance” is not a rationing mechanism nor a “health care denial” mechanism.

      But once the private options become limited or very expensive then “govt insurance, will in fact comprise “rationing” or “flat out denial of services”.

      Govt provided health care is immoral.

      Thats been my story, that is my story, and I’m stickin with it.

      You can’t fool me pard. Never turn yer back on a lame brain. Crazy……….like a fox.
      Happy Pepper

  11. Judy Sabatini says:

    Morning All

    What I see happening with this recommendation is a lot more women dying needlessly, especially if their doctors refuse to perform mammograms on them. I was always told by my doctor to get yearly mammograms along with yearly pap smears once I turned 40. I am now 58, and so far with each visit nothing has been detected, thank God.

    So what’s going to happen when these doctors refuse to have their patients get these required tests done? Will they have to go elsewhere? And what if cancer runs in their families? I always thought the sooner you get tested and if something is found, the sooner it can be taken care of, but I guess not anymore.

    My cousin was diagnosed with breast cancer last year, and they caught it early enough. She took chemotherapy, lost all her hair, was sick for days at a time, but is now on the road to recovery, for now at least. But if her doctor now refuses any further mammograms on her, then what? Will she have to seek help else where too?

    This sounds like another saga in the government interfering in the medical field if you ask me. But, that’s just my opinion.

    Hope all will have a good day.


  12. USW

    Consider this the second shot across the bow to prime the American public for health care rationing. The first shot was when President Obama suggested that the wounded vets should be responsible for their own health care. The administration had to back track fast from that statement because of all the public ire. It did not take Kathleen Sebelius long to get in front of the public to deflect this latest shot. Same story; howls from public and medical folks.

    How anyone can claim that government healthcare will not lead to rationing is not looking at the numbers. In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, David Walker the former head of the Government Accountability Office says “Our off balance sheet obligations associated with Social Security and Medicare put us in a $56 trillion financial hole”, this was before the recession and the planned taking of billions from these two programs to help pay for Obamacare. Politicians live in a different world; they think the laws of nature do not apply to them. They live in a make belief world.

  13. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    The truly alarming thing right now is the huge number of “young ‘uns” who are actively pushing for this and celebrating because “health care is going to be free!”

    Shows just how poorly we are educating our young people these days… sigh.

    • TANSTAAFL, my friend.

      … except maybe in my alternate reality.. 😉

      • Matt….ummmm….how many alternates do you have?

        • As many as I need, colonel, as many as I need.

          • 🙂

            • I feel I should respond to USW’s initial reference to my alternate realities.

              Mathius will retreat to his alternate reality

              I know he specifically said that this was in jest, but I take great offense to what he said. In all sincerity*, I may actually consider becoming only a passive reader on this blog if this is the way I am treated. So, Mr. Weapon, take heed: I never retreat.

              *OK, in no amount of sincerity. It’s always good to know I amuse people.

              • Was this serious? I meant it as a joke, I said it was a joke. I certainly didn’t mean to offend you. You were quite amusing with your discussion of alternate reality yesterday. So I acknowledged it with humor in my post.

                If this was serious, I am shocked.

              • USw, He was joking, read the bottom of his post.

              • No, no, my good friend, I meant my reply in jest. I posted the asterisk to clarify, just in case there was any misunderstanding. I welcome your comment and was not offended in any way shape or form. Further, it would take a stick on dynamite to stop me from posting here. I love it. As long as my input is welcome, I will be here.

                My (apparently failed) attempt at humor was just suggesting that I was offended, not by your reference to my alternate reality, but rather by your suggestion that I would retreat.

                Have a happy weekend, the best to the missus and the pup.


              • I am relieved. I never intend to offend, and your opinions are ALWAYS welcomed here. I want as many varying opinions as possible and yours come with reason (at least most of the time 😉 )

              • Matt:

                You are not the socialist lefty you think you are my friend.

                We only need to figure out how to release you from that shell that holds you captive.

                I know this because I know literally hundreds of true, died in the wool, lefty socialists. NONE of them have a sense of humor.

                They are all angry bitter people.

                Lifes a bitch and then you die, is their motto.

                There is hope for young Matt.

              • * D13 reads with amusement all the veiled humorous approaches. It is nice to see how we all can resort to humor and still have differing opinions and we are not dragged before a firing squad (yet)or have a night time visit from a death squad…different from the death panels or are they? Hmmm….going out, now, to my clandestine Abrams M1A1 with laser guided Sabot rounds of depleted uranium, Dr Pepper, Jalapeno Bean dip….and shoot road runners from 2,000 meters at 40 mph over rough terrain Four legged and two legged….the things retired colonels do.

  14. Just last nite I was chatting with a plastic surgeon – sole practitioner – told him my PCP canceled his PCP patients – also a sole practitioner – he said starting Jan – when medicare reduces payments by 23% – he stop taking medicare patients – even tho elective – he does lot of skin cancer stuff – they’ll have to wait long time if ever find anyone else – said also a LOT of MD will go out of business !!

    Also said ”1st dollar” coverage fails – UK – Canada – will fail here. Referred to ”1st dollar” as the common way to speak to this issue –

    I started to ask why didn’t hear MD like him step up and talk about it …

    It was a public social event – he never answered – said before – talking to the choir..

    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

      US Medical schools are actively recruiting students from China, India, southeast Asia, and many other foreign locations. There simply aren’t enough viable US candidates for medical school. In addition, many well-educated US college students are simply choosing other fields due to the perception that going into medicine is no longer very profitable.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        My youngest son will be going into med-school in about a year and a half, has one more year of pre-med to go, and his grade point average right now is 3.8.

        • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

          I applaud your son for doing so well! I hope the medical profession is still worth going into by the time he gets there.

          I have several friends whose fathers are doctors, and in the case of all 3 of my friends, dad has retired from practice within the past 5 years. All 3 of these doctors said variations of “we could see the writing on the wall, it was time to get out of the medical profession.”

          I hope they are wrong!

          • Judy Sabatini says:

            Thank you Peter. I hope it will be worth going into by the time he gets there, and he’s quite determined to make sure he does. He already has his schedule lined up for next semester, all chem classes, well 4 and one bio chem class he has to take.

            By the end of January, he will have received his EMT certificate and is hoping to land a job at our local hospital.

            He has a cousin who is a doctor in ER who said he is willing to let my son shadow him anytime he would like too to get the feel of it and to see what he will be doing as an ER doctor. That’s the specialty my son wants to do.

          • PeterB:

            I had a doctor appointment around a month ago. We discussed nationalized health care. I said I felt sorry for him because he would end up with reduced earnings and eventually end up as a slave working for the government. My doctor said he only had a few years to go before retiring but would consider retiring early.

  15. Ray Hawkins, and others who are interested.

    Ray, we have talked about how insiders are manipulating govt and public perceptions of what is or is not “public opinion”.

    Came across this a few days back. It struck me because I was personally engaged up to my neck in this when it unfolded. The article was pretty good, except they obviously didn’t have knowledge of some of the more obnoxious stuff. Like Forest Service officials threatened with carreer destruction and possible termination.

    I’ll give you one heads up to look for. Notice the quotes from then F.S. Chief Dombeck as opposed to now Environmental group Dombeck. The article failed to point out, at least I didn’t see it, that Clinton appointed Dombeck, who was handpicked by Gore and his staff. In fact Clinton was the first President to appoint a Chief since Teddy Roosevelt appointed the first one.

    Warning, it is quite long so don’t start until you have time to sit back a spell.

    Happy reading all.

    • Hey JAC….how goes it my friend?

    • JAC,
      Got thru first page, interesting. Will read the rest when I have more time.
      New ammo came last night, sighting in .300.

      • I will assume a Weatherby? 3 inches high at 100 meters? Ahhhh… I love hunting season.

        • BAR, Win Mag. Having bad luck. Sighting from a sled, no movement. 180 grains (two brands ammo)was shooting a 8-12″ group at 100yd.
          Switched to 150gr. One and a quarter group.
          Adjust scope, second 150 group 8-12″. Curse and go home, clean gun. 300’s heat quickly, (not my primary rifle)hoping for better results today with clean, cold barrel.

          Fishing for advice? Hate having a rifle not dialed in, even if its just sitting in the safe.

          • If you are shooting magnum, recommend 180 grain silver tip, flat powder if available. Hold for 60 seconds between zero shots. Your results should be better. Oh….remember to be sober….if not sober…shoot the middle target.

            • The 180, 2nd attempt was Remington Express Core-Lokt,
              PSP R300W2. First attempt was with a cheap brand.

              3rd attempt, same Rem in 150, resulted in acceptable group, but was 12″ high, 2″ left, but a tight group.
              Adjusted scope, group went from 1 1/4″ back to 8-12″.

              Usually shoot three with little pause in-between, 30-60 sec’s maybe. Then walk 100 yrds, mark hits with action open to help cool barrel. Did not get to shoot yesterday, may try today with one round, then wait five min. Thought about spraying canned air in barrel after each shot, allow to equalize for a min. then shoot?

              • My Dad had this problem years ago with his Rem .308. Assuming your a good marksman, as my Dad is, he solved the problem with a new scope. Seems the internal mechanisms used to adjust the crosshairs were worn and wouldn’t hold. Just a thought.


              • If you have iron sights in place, remove the scope, shoot at 75 yards, this would confirm the problem


          • LOI

            As a marksmanship instructor while in the military, my opinion is that you have a anticipation habit. Try having someone load the gun for you several times, have one of the times, without your knowledge, hand you an unloaed gun. When you pull the trigger, you may find your problem, as the gun should not move.

            I use a 7mm Mag, and can keep my pattern inside a 50 cent piece at 200 yards. You Win-Mag is very capable of that as well.

            Hope that helps!


            • G!

              You caught me, I do have an anticipation problem, when the first shot is a flyer, that’s what I look for. My primary is also a 7 Mag that groups similar to you. Sighting it this year took six rounds, where my buddy went thru a box of shells for his 300.
              Then had to return another day.

              I changed my 300’s scope to a Leupold 4×12, which brought on my current situation. Has no effect on my hunting, just frustrating, but I switched to the 7mm because of how quickly the 300 barrel heats when shooting multiple times.

    • To Ray et al.

      Continuation of the theme. One of the top people at manipulating science to meet a pre-determined conclusion there ever was.

      Her role during the above “roadless rule”

      And her role today…

      They never really go away. They just move from one closet to another.

  16. Judy Sabatini says:

    Read this in our local paper this morning and thought I’d pass it a long.

    Health bill gets shot of Botox:

    They call it the Botox
    The Wh and the U.S. Senate Department have turned to a proposal to tax breast implants, tummy tucks, wrinkle-smoothing injections and other procedures as they search for ways to pay for health care reform.

    Vanity was an easy target as lawmakers scraped for cash for the about $1 trillion plan to expand health care to millions of Americans who lack insurance. But it’s no joke to the drug makers and people who perform the cosmetic nips and tucks.

    Skin-smoothing Botox injections could be hard hit. There were some $4.7 million last year and an average cost per visit of about $400.

    Taxing cosmetic procedures is unnecessarily punitive on people who merely decided to enhance their appearance, said Caroline Van Hove, a spokem-woman for Botox maker Allergan Inc.

    At issue is a proposal in the health care draft unveiled by U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, that would slap a 5 percent excise tax on elective cosmetic surgeries and procedures. The plan, projected to raise $6 billion, wouldn’t apply to surgery to fix deformity or injury but would include procedures such as face lifts, liposuction’s and cosmetic implants.

    Gee, I wonder what Pelosi will do now if they tax Botox. She’ll sag so low, she’ll look like bloodhound,

    I don’t know if any of you have seen this, but I thought it was worth posting here.

  17. USW,

    You are overreacting, there will be NO rationing.

    There will be resource allocation.

    Prioritizing, assigning, budgeting, conserving, scheduling, other Synonyms
    control, deal, distribute, divvy, divvy up, dole, give out, issue, limit, measure out, mete, mete out, parcel, parcel out, proportion, prorate, quota, restrict, save, share

    But our government will never ration health care.

    • Ray,

      You are trapped by language.

      Government is, will and must ration.

      An economic good subsidized below its market value will consumed to exhaustion.

      You have no economic theory that contradicts this.

      Therefore, rationing WILL happen. However, government will never call it that.

      They will, as you say, call it:
      Prioritizing, assigning, , conserving, scheduling, control, distribute, divvy, dole, give out, issue, limit, measure out, mete, mete out, parcel, parcel out, proportion, prorate, quota, restrict

      But for you, individually, it means:

      – do without, do it later, wait in line, never get.
      Buy it on the black market

      • While there are always black market avenues available for hard goods….do you really think that a service black market will exist…or be allowed to exist?

        • Yes, and even bigger, D13

          A product can be traced.

          A service cannot.

          “I went over to my friend and visited him, so what?”

          There is a large underground for technical services, for example – everyone asks for my help on technology and I get beer and food. I could easily convert that to cash if I needed to…

        • Wow….very thought provoking…a back alley cardiologist. Could happen.

      • Flag,

        It was sarcasm directed at our government, which continues to act like they are in a re-write for 1984.
        And you called me Ray. I have never been so insulted!
        You, you, Matt like posting person. LOL

  18. For those who haven’t read this yet..

    Climate sceptics claim leaked emails are evidence of collusion among scientists

    Hundreds of emails and documents exchanged between world’s leading climate scientists stolen by hackers and leaked online

    • BF:

      This fits nicely with the link I left for Ray above. Check it out when you have some time.

      I smell smoke, something is burning.

    • Point of order: will the gentleman from the great state of Denial yield for a question?

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


        Just to warn you, much of the leaked emails and leaked data has already undergone pretty extensive forensic analysis, and so far both the emails and the data have been verified by multiple sources to be genuine.

        With that in mind, what is your question?

        • My question is this:

          If I respond to these these “leaked emails” with the observation that no group of people of substantial size can keep a secret for so long – especially not one of this magnitude and importance – will your and and Black Flag’s response be a lengthy drawn out discussion which will soak up hours of time I don’t have to spare today which will lead to a point by point argument utilizing large quantities of nested block quotes and point/counterpoints of every minute detail?

          • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

            The point-counterpoint would be a fun excercise.

            However, you have to realize that Hadley-CRU is a government agency in Great Britain.

            You would be very surprised at what they could keep secret, and for how long.

            Certainly, they could not keep it all secret forever, so for them, forever just ended today 🙂

            You speculate that forever should have ended much earlier, but why? Hadley-CRU replied to every FOI request with either “the dog ate the data” or “no, just no!”.

            There is no magical device which enables us to tell precisely WHEN an attempt at secrecy will fail. You seem to be indicating that based on scale any attempt at secrecy should have logically failed much earlier, so the fact that it failed right now makes it likely to be illegitamate… why?

            What makes it any more or less likely to fail at any other time than when it actually does fail?

            • v. Holland says:

              Might I just add that it is much easier to keep a secret when the media is complicit in keeping the secret-and if this actually kills the global warming frenzy(which is questionable) I can just see the Headlines now-How the deceitful science community used Al Gore!

            • Two men can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. Ben Franklin

              “It does look incriminating on the surface, but there are lots of single sentences that taken out of context can appear incriminating,” said Bob Ward, director of policy and communications at the Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment at the London School of Economics. “You can’t tell what they are talking about. Scientists say ‘trick’ not just to mean deception. They mean it as a clever way of doing something – a short cut can be a trick.”

              I’ll wait for more analysis before pronouncing judgment.

              I will interpret your response to be an affirmative answer to my question. Therefore, I will yield the remainder of my time.

              Another time, perhaps? 🙂

              • v. Holland says:

                Excuse-“Scientists say ‘trick’ not just to mean deception. They mean it as a clever way of doing something – a short cut can be a trick.””

                E-mail Statement-“I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.”

                Note the last few words “to hide the decline” So I guess hiding the decline is a clever little short cut not just an old fashioned way to lie.

              • Mathius Encountered an Error: insufficient information to make an assessment.

              • v. Holland says:

                Seems to me there has been insufficient information to make an assessment on whether we should have a cap and trade bill too but it sure hasn’t stopped our government from trying to pass one.

              • I do have sufficient information to revise my Ben Franklin quote.. he said three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead.

                Beyond that, I reserve judgment.

          • Kristian Stout says:

            Mat, I can answer that for you, YES!!!LOL

          • Yes, Matt, and sadly.

            Because you are a smart man – you will not blanket-accept my very correct, never with error, and always right answers.

            The law of the Universe, page 3,003,103,141 says, quote:

            “If you do will not accept the Yes or No answer of any Black Flag, you will be subjected to no less than 1,250 and probably more than 35,145 word proofs of their responses”

            Sorry, sir, the Universe is the final judge…

    • BF,

      This could have far reaching implications. Not just in the US, but think how the counties that entered the Koyota Protocol must be feeling. They were duped into believing a fairytale, and it cost them billions. I hope this means the cats out of the bag, and Al Gore gets an inconvenient jail sentence for fraud!


  19. Judy Sabatini says:

    Cartoon of the day.

    • cute

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        What, you don’t like?

        • No, I thought it was pretty good, actually.

          • Judy Sabatini says:

            Well, thank you Mathius. Hope you’re doing good today.

            • Judy Sabatini says:

              Are you calling me a bag? I don’t ordinarily like Dilbert, but that was funny.

              • A bag of wonderful?

                Or maybe, you’re a bag lady?

                But I suppose it is possible that Scott Adams thinks you are the bag containing a disposable feminine hygiene product that one might use on a warm summer’s eve.

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                Hey, that last part isn’t very nice Mathius.

                I would like to think of myself as being a nice person.

                If you want to know more about me, go to my face book and look there.

                Just because I’m 58 doesn’t make me an old bag, a bag lady or an old douche bag.

              • Well then I think you should write Adams an angry email. He has libeled your entire generation.

                I, however, think you’re a bag of sunshine and sweetness. 🙂

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                Thank you very much I appreciate it. And may I say, I think you are a very nice person youself.

              • Followed your advice, looked you up on facebook. There wasn’t much information because we aren’t friends, but I found some other names I recognized as well.. I have to say, Flag doesn’t look anything like I expected – where’s the eye-patch?

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                If you want to , you can go on there and put yourself to add as a friend and I will okay it, but it’s up to you.

              • I don’t know if I’m prepared to give up my anonymity yet… Perhaps some day…

              • Ah, good Mathius, you now have me at a slight disadvantage.

                I do not know what you look like but you know what I look like.

                You can move adjective to me, unsuspectingly, and stab me in the heart, without me knowing who you are.

                My grace to friends has undone me.

                To be fair, sir, link us a sink so that we may see the great Mathius, to prepare ourselves worthy of battle!

  20. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    The people are getting tired of being manipulated by the Statists and being told that more Statism is the only cure for what ails us.

    The story on continued bad mortgage policy (linked by me), the stories about the impending collapse of the AGW empire (posted by several people) and the story about the roadless wilderness (posted by JAC) are all examples that people everywhere are getting sick of governmental intrusion into our lives.

    We are meeting the revolution, and it is us! What we are seeing is a buildup of energy against the system. Such a buildup has occurred before (late 1960’s anyone) and all that buildup did was net us a bunch of Chris Dodds and Nancy Pelosis. Didn’t turn out so well when the anti-government folks became the leaders of government, now did it?

    We need to find a better way this time!

    • I’ll grab my pitchfork and meet you in Washington

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


        My pitchfork will more than likely be reserved somewhere else- South Dakota maybe 🙂 They are far more useful for stacking hay as opposed to prodding politico-tushies.

        I find it likely that what we are about to see is BF’s fabled “de-legitimization” of government.

        The government inadvertantly started this by actively encouraging apathy among the populace. They then mistook this apathy. The apathy was because the 2 parties did not provide any meaningful differentiation on anything. What the apathy REALLY represented was dissatisfaction with no idea how to react. Politicians thought the apathy meant “go ahead and do whatever you want!”.

        Now that politicians have “done whatever they wanted” long enough, the apathy is turning to complete distrust of the entire system.

        There are still enough people around that realize that this was supposed to be a country that was a Republic based on the freedom and liberty of the people, and their willingness and ability to control their own government. Those of us that realize the intended design now also realize that either A) the design has failed, B) the people have failed, or C) both A and B.

        Not sure what is going to happen from here, but I won’t be heading TOWARDS Washington in any case 🙂

        • How can you claim to know that pitchforks are better with hay than politicians if you’ve never tried it? Would you prefer cattle prods?

          Adding, I think that would make an absolutely fantastic protest theme. Everyone shows up with pitchforks and torches for a march on the Capital.

          Remember, you heard me say it first. When someone actually does it, I want the credit.

          • Actually Matt, The thought of that is rather interesting. That might be a good idea down the road!



          • Matt:

            You and Glenn Beck.

            He was talking about such an event many months ago and he was politely told by govt folks that such a massive demonstration might be viewed as “violent”.

            This was before the tea party gatherings started.

            So you and Beck huh? What a picture.

            • Hi JAC!

              Since they viewed the Tea Parties as racist and un-American, maybe alittle violent (in their view, not actually violent) might wake them up!


            • Well, much as I hate to be lumped in with that maniac (I prefer to be lumped in with different maniacs), he does have a good flair for the dramatic.

              If the government is concerned about violence by a pitchfork wielding mob, I have a solution to that too. Just put corks on the points of the pitchforks. Then they’re not a threat to anyone. See, problem solved. You get to keep your imagery, while simultaneously pointing out the micromanagement of the government and there’s no risk of accidentally putting your eye out.

              Not particularly related, but I heard a story years ago that I believe to be apocryphal, but I still love it. The Klan demanded the right to march past the White House. DC said no, the Klan sued and won. So, the police watched as the hooded Klansmen walked past the white house and then arrested them all for violating an anti-mask ordinance. Apparently it’s illegal to wear a mask within a certain distance of certain federal buildings in DC. I award massive style points to the DC police if it’s true.

              • I have a better one that didn’t require dishonest use of force on innocent racists.

                Years ago in Coeur d’Alene, ID the White Supremecists requested a parade permit. City said yes, because they lost a NO answer before. The anti-defamation and other anti racist folks get wind and travel from all over the land to demonstrate and yell nasties at the skin head.

                The locals always just ignored them and made sure not to be around on parade day. But the crusaders from out of town would have none of that.

                Well as the parade progresses all 8 or 10 skin heads with their leader standing in the back of a pickup and the others walking around, move toward the critical point where the 1,000 or so protestors are located. They picked a special block near the end of the parade so they could yell longer at the skin heads when they packed up for home. Also made for better media pictures.

                Any how, when the parading skin heads get to the intersection a couple of blocks before the crowd the local cops quickly throw up a barrier and divert the parade one block around the protesters. The protesters didn’t know the parade was OVER until the skin heads had left for home.

                And the beauty was………NOBODY saw their parade. Just like the locals wanted in the first place.

                The local Chief had rained on everybody’s parade.

                Only problem arose when protesters got PO’d and starting waiving around signs that didn’t meat oridances. Signs could not have wooden sticks over a certain length. An old ordinance to protect protesters from beign beaten or stabbed with the other protesters sign sticks. Any way a few got tickets and of course filed law suits against the city for denying there first amendment rights.

              • “I award massive style”

                Whereas I would subtract them.

                Evil lives in shadows.

                When evil wants to run in the light of day, instead of stupid games – let them.

                They will melt.

                Now, they were strengthen because no one is fooled by stupid games, and those that play them are merely fools.

          • Matt, my friend, any one that works a ranch or a farm knows that pitchforks remove more manure than moves hay. perhaps pitchforks in DC is exactly what we need.

        • Peter

          Have I mentioned lately that you are a darn fine Dread Pirate Roberts?

          Fight on!

          I find myself lately more often then not merely your second mate!

  21. Judy Sabatini says:

    She advises women and men to do self breast exams monthly as well as tells women to get mammograms by the age of 40. Watch the video, shows her doing some cancer breast surgery, and how she might have caught it early enough for this woman.


    Some interesting numbers on the government proposed cost of programs verses the actual cost of said programs.

  23. Smoke and Mirrors in action by the Messiah and the Obamanots:

    Both the House and the Senate bills require that states cover a larger percentage of their people under Medicaid – a joint state and federally funded program. The idea was to force the state to raise their taxes to cover a big part of the health care bill for treating poor people. Since the Feds can simply charge any increase in spending to their already overdrawn bank account, but the states have to balance their budgets, the increased state spending for Medicaid will cause sharp increases in state taxes. And the Governors will get the blame, not Obama and not the Congress.

    And the theft just gets better everyday!


    • Judy Sabatini says:

      Hey G

      Did you by any chance read that thing I put up about taxing breast implants, cosmetic surgeries, wrinkle-smoothing injections, face lifts and tummy tucks?

      Guess they’ll tax anything to get the money they need for this health care bill.

      Hope you’re doing well today by the way.

      • Hi Judy!

        I’m fine today, expecting a slow night at home, keeping the fire burning and the heater off.

        The healthcare bill, as everyone has been calling it, is no more than a tax bill with a different name. This bill will not fix anything, but it will make things worse for everyone, that you can count on. There is no “good intentions” in D.C., just more theft.


        • Judy Sabatini says:

          Slow night huh, same here. It’s so freaking windy here, it’s unbelievable, winds pushing around 70mph so far with about 130 up in the mountains. Snow and rain are expected to come in any time.

          You’re right, there are no good intentions in D.C, if there were, they wouldn’t be trying to force this bill down our throats like they are.

          Forcing people to get health care, or face a fine or even jail time. Come on, give me a break there. What are they going to do, jail 3 million people if they don’t get it? Don’t see that happening.

          BTW, when do you head to your dad’s for hunting?

          • I’ll be going Friday or Saturday after Thanksgiving. The deer blood shall spill!


            • Judy Sabatini says:

              Oh now, be nice. Thought you were going this week and spending Thanksgiving with him. My mistake, must have gotten my blond wires crossed then.

  24. Judy Sabatini says:

    Thought it was time for a funny.

    Childbirth at 65 –

    With all the new technology regarding fertility recently, a 65-year-old
    friend of mine was able to give birth. When she was discharged from the
    hospital and went home, I went to visit.

    ‘May I see the new baby?’ I asked

    ‘Not yet,’ She said ‘I’ll make coffee and we can
    visit for a while first.’

    Thirty minutes had passed, and I asked, ‘May I see the new baby now?’

    ‘No, not yet,’ She said.

    After another few minutes had elapsed,

    I asked again, ‘May I see the baby now?’

    ‘No, not yet,’ replied my friend.

    Growing very impatient, I asked, ‘Well, when can I see the baby?’

    ‘WHEN HE CRIES!’ she told me.

    ‘WHEN HE CRIES?’ I demanded ‘Why do I have to wait until he CRIES?’


  25. Judy Sabatini says:

    Mathius down here,

    Well, that’s totally up to you, but if you decide to change your mind, let me know.

    • You’ll know when/if you receive a friend request from some guy named Matthew with a picture of him getting kissed by a sea lion.

      What happens in Mexico, stays in Mexico – unless it finds its way onto Facebook.

      • Rumor has it that some country tend to their sheep (literally), I didn’t know that sea lions returned effection. Learn something new everyday LOL!


        • Judy Sabatini says:

          Won’t even go there with the sheep. You guys are bad, you’re corrupting me something awful. I may have to take a leave of absence to regain my sanity.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        My youngest son is named MATTHEW, it’s a good name. That’s funny, what happens in Mexico, stays in Mexico.

        • Matthew means gift of God. Just thought I’d throw that out there.. You know, because my ego wasn’t big enough already.

          • Matt, age 11: A chip off the old block.

            Matt today: The one that broke the mold!

            Happy Friday!

          • Judy Sabatini says:

            My oldest son’s name is Christopher, which is I believe a derivative of Christ. They both have Biblical names first and middle. Matthew’s middle name is John, and Christopher’s is James. Can’t get any more Biblical than that, can you.

          • Black Flag means

            (1) No surrender, no quarter asked or given

            (2) Freedom, no quarter asked or given.

            (3) Pirates, no quarter asked or given

            (40 Plague – stay way, or you will die.

            Hmmm, seems a recurring theme there….

  26. Judy Sabatini says:

    Can you read this?

    Eonverye taht can raed tihs rsaie yuor hnad.

    To my ‘selected’ strange-minded friends:

    If you can read the following paragraph, forward it on to your friends and the person who sent it to you with ‘yes’ in the subject line.

    Only great minds can read this
    This is weird, but interesting!

    fi yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too

    Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.

    i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno’t mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs forwrad it

    Forward it & put ‘YES’ in the Subject Line

    • Shouldn’t you just put the instruction to forward it in garbled text too? Wouldn’t that be easier than telling people not to forward it? They just wouldn’t know what you’re saying and would delete it.

      But I’m actually pretty sure the percentage is higher than 55. I think, actually, almost everyone can read that. But it’s still pretty interesting.

      • I think, actually, almost everyone can read that. But it’s still pretty interesting.

        Everyone not associated with Congress, they don’t read anything!

        • Yea, but they’ll just institute a program to pay for someone to read it to them. It’ll only cost $15/hr to get some high school kid in to do it. Plus $370,000/hr in overhead. Plus the $17.5mm for the oversight committee. Plus $1.4bb in start up costs and no-bid contracts to companies which employ former aids. Plus $8.1bb in pork. But it’s pretty much the same thing, right?

          But wait.. Congress has proven that they should not be left alone with high schoolers – *COUGH* Mark Foley *COUGH* – so they’ll probably need a redundant supervisory board and intermediary. Or some kind of system to monitor the interaction between reader and congressman. What was I talking about, again?

          • I couldn’t have said it better myself. They can add all this to the next stimulus bill and claim it as a jobs bill. Well said Matt!

            • If they hire some teenagers, they can give their sheep and donkeys to the needy, might as well share the wealth. Wonder if Barney Frank has a stud goat?

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                For his own pleasure I’m assuming. See what you guys did to me here, you’re making me a bad team mom here. Now what kind of example is that, I ask you?

    • Gee, this was too easy.

      It looks like my posts before I spell check them!


  27. That’s it for me for the week. To all: good night, and good luck.

    • Have a good weekend Matt!

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      Bye for now Matt.

      • Bottom Line says:


        I got kinda busy and then fell asleep before I could reply to you yesterday.

        Don’t be silly, your comment didn’t warrant an apology. Even if you did direct it toward me, it wasn’t something I would have interpreted as any way but kidding around.

        Yer just nice. I bet people like to hug you. The SUFA nickname “MOM'” certainly suits you.

        • Judy Sabatini says:

          Well now BL, you don’t owe me an apology either. I sometimes just read the post without seeing who wrote it and then I noticed who did.

          I don’t know if people in general want to hug me, but I do get a lot from family and friends, and thank you for the compliment, I appreciate it very much.

          I believe in treating people nice and with respect, even if at times I don’t agree with them, that’s just my nature, I guess, that, and it was the way I was brought up.

          Hope you will have a nice weekend.

          • Bottom Line says:

            Judy – “Well now BL, you don’t owe me an apology either. I sometimes just read the post without seeing who wrote it and then I noticed who did.”

            BL – I read your reply and intended to respond but fell asleep before I could. I felt like I left you hanging. I know it isn’t a big deal, but I felt compelled to reply to such a gesture of humble etiquette. To ignor it felt rude.

            Judy – ” don’t know if people in general want to hug me, but I do get a lot from family and friends, and thank you for the compliment, I appreciate it very much.”

            BL – Judy, For all tense and purposes, you are a bunch of words on a screen every day that represent a person. I don’t know you…
            But I feel like giving you a hug. My guess is that you have that affect on people. You just seem like good warm wholesome people. That’s all.



            • Judy Sabatini says:

              Thank you and I give you a hug back.

              It wasn’t rude of you at all. I just thought that you were done for the day, really it’s no biggie, I promise.

              BL, I just speak what’s on my mind and in my heart, just the way I am, I guess, always been that way really.

              If there is something I don’t agree with, I say something, the same with something I do agree with. I love talking with people and getting to know them and that is why I come here everyday. I have gotten to know most of you here, and I have come to the conclusion, you are a great group of people.

              If I didn’t enjoy the daily talks, chats, arguments, and debates,trust me, I wouldn’t be here, but I do enjoy every minute of it and that’s is because of everybody here, you all make my days happier for being my friends.

    • Don’t forget your homework, Mathius!


  28. Hi Ya’ll!

    As I sit here and contemplate, I can’t a few posts that pushed a “call to action”. As the pats year has gone on, we have seen tea parties, town hall meetings, 9/12 and many other events and politicians who have spoken out against this Healthcare BS bill.

    I do believe there is a fast growing anger within this country, one that, like myself, don’t know what to do next.

    Some on this site will say do nothing, they will destroy themselves. Yup, they will, and take many of us with them i’m afraid.

    Many here are well trained combat vets, who by virtue of their past, could plan anything in that arena. But we aren’t in that arena. So with everything that has already been done, with no results, whats next on the list?

    They (Congress) do not listen. So, for anyone who wants action, how do you propose we make them listen?

    Any thoughts?


    • Judy Sabatini says:

      That’s a tough one that requires some thought. Since they haven’t listened, and in all honesty, and whatever any one comes up with, what makes you or anybody think for that matter will make any difference at all with what comes up?

      They seem perfectly happy to destroy this country, and we the people with it. It’s going to take something pretty powerful for them to listen to us and to see that we, the people mean business. But what can be done, outside of over throwing the government? Or, can that be done? And if it can, how?

      Sorry if I sound somewhat confused here G, but this is a major thing here you’re talking about, and I think it would take some mighty powerful people to come up with something. Maybe there are some of them here on this site, maybe it will take combat vets to come up with something, I don’t know. I guess I never really gave it much thought about what could/should be done. I’m still a new student with a lot of what most of you talk about , and I’m trying me damndest to learn, but some of is over my head,

      That make any sense to you at all? It did in my head when I was thinking about what to try and say here. Maybe I’m still a novice with all this government stuff, but it’s hard to try and keep up here with all the post that is said here, and a lot of it I don’t understand.

      • Your not confused Judy. The common frontal attack has failed to this point. Fox News his taking up the rear attack, we just need to figure out how to flank them on the left and right, while maintaining the front and rear attacks. The flanking attacks are what is missing.

        That’s why I asked this, to get that thinking process going.


    • G Man:

      First and foremost there needs to be a clear goal. What are we trying to achieve. You’ve heard me pound on this in many ways. That was the purpose of the philosophy series. To get everyone to start thinking about how we got here. To realize that just hitting the restart button isn’t enough. We need to have a set of core values that we ALL agree to. These are the meta-values that we will all fall back on when other issues divide us. It is our commonality.

      G, I spent the last hour typing out a pretty comprehensive plan, though rough, of what we need to do. Then I realized that it is not something we should post on a site that gets thousands of visitors each week, most of whom we don’t know. So I have taken the information out and will save it for use in a different forum.

      Let me just say that I think everyone knows in general terms what is needed.

      1) Prepare for the worst. That is the protection of you and family in event of collapse.
      2) Together we develope the key principles and other things needed to resurrect our republic.
      3) Get hard core lefties out of congress in 2010 to the extent possible (R’s and D’s). Put the fear of their jobs in them.

      Doing 1 & 2 will allow us to respond to a collapse if it happens. If it doesn’t then 3 will be the next step.

      If collapse comes, we will be ready to step up to rebuild the promise.

      I will think about how to address my concerns over publicity this weekend G. I promise. Meantime, any ideas would be more than welcom.

      Live Free and Peace be with you

      • Good Morning JAC!

        It is a good idea to keep things unpublished in a public forum for the time being. I have principles of a plan, but still trying to develope the flanking moves the would be the key. Surprise is a key. Fortunaltely, the mentallity of two large groups of people (vets and military) are on our side right now. If the Senate moves this healthcare bill through, the collapse is far closer than we expected. If they also push through cap and trade, despite the recent evidence that it is a fraud, the fun will begin!

        Hope you have a good day!


        • G Man:

          Did it occur to you that they are pushing this stuff so fast because they think the crash is already coming faster than even they thought possible?

          The passage of health care may in fact mean nothing in that regard. It might and it might not. However, it might create a watershed moment for awakening the public.

          But I am guessing they will manipulate the public in one last grand effort to at least get the poll numbers around a 50/50 split. At least they will try. If the public doesn’t move after such an effort it will be a good sign of a general change in thinking.

          Another will be to follow how that congresswoman from Arkansas is welcomed at her home town committee meetings. See LOI’s post at bottom. She is basically going home to promise MORE COOKIES. If she catches hell from folks who sream no more cookies, that will be another sign.

          G….We need to ramp up the education of the general public. We may have the military but we don’t have enough people. The vets may provide a more motivated work force but we need more numbers who understand and are willing to make the sacrifices needed.

          For example, at a meeting of supposed “conservatives” the other night I listened to speeches and cheers about liberty, freedom and restoring our country. I asked one simple question.

          How many of you here are willing to give up yor Soc. Sec checks or at least extend your retirement until your 71? NOBODY volunteered.

          Until we are willing to give up the COOKIES we have no chance.

          Think about the progression you and others have made on this site. All the arguments, discussions, questions back and forth. Look how long it has taken for things to come into focus. There are millions out there who are just now starting that process.

          That is one reason I have constantly said that anything we do now or in near future should be viewed as nothing more than a holding action. Or perhaps even better, a campaign of harrassment and distraction. Stop or slow their progress, keep them occupied while we gather our force.

          One for you. How long do you think it will take? Realisticly now, assuming the whole thing doesn’t collapse.

          The best to you this AM G.

          P.S. wasn’t it you who has the place in PA?

          • JAC

            I can say that the Philosophical series was a very important time for me. I learned alot as to how any form of government should behave and act.

            I agree that we should slow or stop them the best we can, but there are many things that are out of our control that can help us build our forces. Black Flags economic prowess is also important, he seems to see the signs. But without a collapse, these efforts may take a decade or more, with a collapse, the door will be wide open. To be able to achieve freedom, those who choose to live off the government must change their ways.

            The forces we desire are plenty and out there, but like many, are quietly waiting for a major bad thing to occur, that would put their survival in peril, when that occurs (economic collapse) they will come out of the woodwork. I also think that many current Lefties would switch sides in a heartbeat.

            I laugh alittle, as would have never thought about these things just a short year ago, jeez do things change fast.

            USW can provide my E-mail, maybe we can share some ideas that shouldn’t be in a public forum.

            Peace my friend!


            • G-man:

              ” I learned alot as to how any form of government should behave and act.”

              Remember, the most important thing is to know WHY it should behave and act a certain way.

              When you can defend the WHY then you can defend the what against all comers.

              Are you there yet??

              • I do know why, and can defend that position very easily, I practice at work every chance I get!


      • JAC:

        E-mail me a copy. USW has my e-mail.


        • Birdman and G-Man

          It is not time for tactics yet. I will share some such ideas very soon and maybe those interested can work on them elsewhere.

          You two have expressed the desire to move on VDLG.

          First question.

          Do you accept the moral and ethical prime that we DO NOT have the rigth to initiate force against the innocent?

          Remember, if we accept that as a moral base, then we must make sure our Govt adheres to the same standard.

          So, once again, do you accept this as a foundation stone?

          If you have reservations it is OK to share.


          • Do you accept the moral and ethical prime that we DO NOT have the rigth to initiate force against the innocent?


            Easy question, I never felt that initiating force on the innocent was in any shape or form morally correct. Now, if we can just teach the lefties this!

            Let’s roll with it.


          • JAC, seems everyone wants a movement all of a sudden. I’m starting to wonder about the effect of fragmentation. The tommy bahama site is backing and trying to move forward an economic platform – the video I mentioned last week if you remember. That, by the way, they are offering free to bloggers.

            I’m still watching and listening and finding that others are seeing what you spotted early this fall. If you have time, please read this and let me know your thoughts

            thanks – c

            • Search the Web on says:

              Interesting article Csm. I have noticed at work, that those who supported Obama are suddenly quiet, most won’t speak his name, they are embarrassed. Me being me, I remind them of their mistake, most just lower their head, mumble, and walk away.

              Those who continue to praise their messiah, are truly lost. They have no direction and don’t even know it. These people will suffer the worst, they can’t see whats coming.

              Their demise is inevitable.


            • Csm

              I read that the other day but did not comment.

              Aside from some hyperbole it is DEAD ON.

              The exception I take is that is what I have seen for a very long time. Especially among the inner city or impoverished young. I see it more and more.

              The other is the anger and rage contained within those on the hard “liberal” left. You could see it in the air just before and after the last election. Now that things aren’t working so well it is escalating again.

              There are movements everywhere. Some are sincere and others driven by ego and/or chances for money. It will take time to sort out.

              Over one year ago I planned some activities to get national attention and help focus efforts to restore our republic. For a few unexpected reasons I backed off. Then after the elections I started seeing these different groups pop up. The more I thought about it the more I realized this might be the best thing for a young movement.

              That way there is no LEADER to accuse or attack, you can’t claim the followers to be mindless Ditto Heads or what have you. Turned out I was right because look what the first attacks on the tea parties were like. But no centralized leader the power and media couldn’t effectively attack and destroy.

              We are also a diverse people so I think having lots of groups and movements is a good thing right now. It increases the number of ideas and it drives the opposition crazy. To damn many heads on the snake.

              The hazard is those groups who reduce credibility or who become coopted by the Powers, ie Republican establishment.


              I don’t know how we identify it, but the time will come for a more coordinated and uniform effort. But that will be in getting the “foundation principles” out there and agreed to by most, and then the general strategy. Such as get local govt first then state (just example please). Then let everyone run their own.

              So that makes it similar but different to the Goooh effort. Build from local but I am not interested in helping the lefty down the street make sure he has a representative elected.

              Our conundrum is that organizaton and coordination are good, but if overdone the whole effort could fail. Individuals are getting upset and taking action. The minute a “group” steps forward to organize the individuals start withdrawing. Think of little league or any other civic group. At most 10 people do all the work, the others just vote and send money. We don’t need just voters, we need WORKER BEES.


          • JAC:

            Yes, I accept that principle. I think Kent calls it ZAP (zero aggression principle).

          • BIRD, GMAN, CSM

            Do you guys remember who Kilroy was?

  29. From Congressman Tim Ryan (D) OHIO, received a few minutes ago.


    I’m pleased by the recent reports (Small Business Majority and the Business Roundtable ) that affirm the cost savings of health care reforms for employers. With reform, small businesses can save as much as $855 billion and up to $3,000 per employee within 10 years. The changes will benefit 12,300 small businesses in Ohio’s 17th Congressional District.

    This is not left wing propaganda. These are facts from our nation’s top business leaders. While the critics are spreading myths and working to demonize support for reform, top CEOs in the country and thousands of small businesses are saying this will save them money. The fact is that this reform will reduce strangling health care costs on employers and the freed up capital can be reinvested into new technology, new equipment and higher wages. This is exactly the prescription for long term growth in jobs and wages.

    Why do I think this is just another lie from the Dems? Read it carefully, and ask yourself if small business thinks this is true!


    • A funny about my world when it snows, LOL.



      • Bottom Line says:

        That’s funny you should say that G.

        I distinctly remember watching my passenger almost sh8t his pants as I fish-tailed around corners in the ice storm last year.

        I didn’t have a brew, but I did say “watch this”.

      • G Man,

        That was funny but this is funnier. I am a faithful reader of this site. Usually just watch & learn. But I actually dreamed about you the other night and Flag and Birdman if I recall. I don’t know what the topic was but my dream looked like the computer screen with the named characters just floating around as their turn to speak came up. Woke up after a while and had to just laugh at myself. Sweet dreams!

      • That was funny :)-My husband bought a very fast car a few years ago after continually telling him to slow down and occasionally punching him in the arm while screaming slow down , I bought him a sweat shirt that said: Sit Down, Shut up, and Hold on-I felt people should be forewarned.

        • My wife refuses to buy me that shirt – it may encourage me.

          We did a road trip to Vegas a while back in “my car” (ie: I bought it for wife as a Christmas present -….yea right!)

          It was 140 miles to the next town, wife and child were playing a game in the back….

          …pedal got heavy, and….

          50 minutes later we cruised into the town…

          Wife says “Oh, I guess it wasn’t that far …”

          Black Flag ..”Ah, dear, it was…!”

    • I’m thinking its true. Business will save a lot of money once they drop all their employees onto the public option. It might help some of the business survive. I’m not sure we can say the same about the employees, though.

      • Cyndi, The BIG Ceo’s want this!!!! What better way to kill the competition. Small businesses will get destroyed by this. Imagine having omly huge businesses to go work for? They make the rules and wages. Don’t let the Union BS fool you, they are being used, and their to stupid to know it, I know, I am a union Rep.


        • Hi G-Man,

          I don’t understand how small business will be destroyed if they no longer provide health insurance for their employees. Can you please explain?

          • Hi Cyndi!

            Glad you asked. Most small businesses don’t even offer healthcare benefits to their workers. Most, as I have known, bring in reps from several companies to help choose a plan they can afford. But for the most part, small companies cannot afford to provide this benefit.

            Small business makes up a majority of actual employment, and most who work (the older ones) purchase there own coverage without any employer benefits.

            I work in healthcare, While we may have many more “insured”, it will cost the smallest of businesses 8% of their payroll to pay for this new government insurance. While many bigger companies like this, because it will save them money, the small business will not be able to handle that cost, therefore they will cease to exist. Jobs will be lost.

            Read the bills and make your own judgement, I have , and it will kill the economy within a decade.


            • You’re explaination makes sense. How are they getting that $3000 savings to small business? Does it come from the alleged savings of the efficient new system they’re promising?

              • It’s a big lie! Because they can’t prove it. 3K per employee is based on what the govt. says the premiums must be, and believing that all small companies will still be active. BIG, BIg lie and will never work.


              • I see what you mean. I believe you, G-Man!


        • G-Man:

          I’ve got to ask. What Union?

          • Birdman,

            I’m a Teamster, not by choice, but that’s where I work. They are crooked bastards and I do not support the Union ideals. I’m a Rep at work for just the opposite reason. I can influence contractual matters that meet my ideologies, and it does provide protection under Federal Law. Basically, they can’t fire me or lay me off.

            I know that in order for the workers to succeed, the company must succeed. So I’m able to kill any over the top demands that the Union would normally try to attain. The 900 people I represent know where I stand, and rely on me to keep things straight. Management knows where I stand as well, so the BS management decions that are just stupid rarely get attempted. Basically, the elected Union folks don’t like me so they don’t screw with me, and management don’t want me to have to come to any meetings involving employees (because they always lose).

            It’s a winning situation for me, and allows me to educate many people on whats going on with this useless government.

            Hope that answers your question.


            • I’ve never worked for the Teamsters but I’ve worked with various Unions for 25 years. I think they are all pretty much the same. Each tends to represent a minority of the work force and spends most of their time representing problem employees. The good employees rarely have a need for the Union. In my opinion, private companies with a Union will eventually go out of business. Each contract brings new burdens and costs to the Company and after a period of several contract negotiations the Company is no longer competitive. The Union is usually not willing to make the drastic concessions necessary to restore profitability. The health care business may be different (at least for now).

              It sounds like you are taking a business like approach. I hope that the membership appreciates that and re-elects you to office. Sometimes the membership wants a radical Union Representative and elects the worse possible candidate. I don’t know if you are a full time working employee serving as Union Representative or a full time Union paid Representative. I’ve disciplined a Union Representative (the Vice President who worked as a Millwright) who broke the work rules and received a 3 day suspension. I’ve disciplined other Union Representatives for similar infractions (work rules, absenteeism, and poor work performance). Union Representatives are not immune from discipline by the Company for breaking Company rules, procedures, etc. and I know you are aware of that.

              One more thing before I forget. VDLG will not allow the formation or protection of Unions through government laws like the National Labor Relations Act.

              • G-Man: I forgot to put your name on my post.

              • Birdman,

                I’m a full time hospital employee and volunteer to represent, I’m not elected.

                Your right about discipline, but if one does their job it’s not an issue. If it were up to me, Unions would not exist.

                I’m lucky in some ways, we don’t have many problem employees. I make it a point to tell all new employees the importance of performing their jobs at a high level, and as I put it ” I can fix many things, but I can’t fix stupid”

                It has been a good learning experience, and it has some good benefits. I have a great working relationship with the administration, and we tend to work out problems (the few that come up) with common sense solutions. I don’t know much about other unions do business, I can only account for my methods. G!

    • G!

      Large business are prone to use government regulation to gain advantage or to level the playing field. An example, our largest competitor has continued to raise their product liability insurance coverage. They do so as they grow, their risk and exposure grows as well. They also write into bid guidelines their current liability rate. We are roughly 1/3 their size, with sales that much less, its hard to afford the same level of coverage.

      Same thing with health insurance, most large businesses are union, or offer health care anyway. Making small business provide the same coverage, places a dis-proportional cost increases on the small business.

  30. Gasp! and Arg!

    My damaged left hand has further complicated my request – as it refuses to hit the keys as I demand, and that darn spell-checker has a mind of its own!

    ONE MORE TIME – (I often feel like Dr. Strangelove fighting his errant hand…) 😦

    Ah, good Mathius, you now have me at a slight disadvantage.

    I do not know what you look like but you know what I look like.

    You can move ADJACENT to me, unsuspectingly, and stab me in the heart, without me knowing who you are.

    My grace to friends has undone me.

    To be fair, sir, link us a PICTURE so that we may see the great Mathius, to prepare ourselves worthy of battle!

    • Flag doesn’t look anything like I expected –

      And because absolutely no one looks like I think they do, too, it is of interest to me.

      I believe our outer shell is a mask – and what we project unseen is our true selves.

      What did you think I looked like? Maybe this is a question for everyone about everyone (maybe a dedicated post??)

      • For me (and I know Mrs. Weapon will completely agree.)

        USWeapon, in my mind before I saw his picture, looked like Rambo.

        And after I saw his real picture, though doesn’t look like Rocky, still looks like Rambo!

        • Judy Sabatini says:

          You didn’t look anything I pictured in my mind, I thought maybe you looked more like a biker for some reason, maybe that’s because of your handle here. When I did see what you looked, you still look like a biker type. What I mean is, you look like you would ride a bike, perhaps a Harley.

          • I rode bicycles.

            My cousin, proud owner of a new motorbike, let me try it out.

            I, of course, proceeded to crash it into a hedge.

            Motorbikes are machines of death – I’d rather pack a few hundred more horsepower into four wheels, and deal with ‘bikes’ while encased in a shell of steel! 🙂

        • Judy Sabatini says:

          Flag, Have to ask you. Did I do you an unjust thing by offering Mathius to go on my face book, and now he knows what you look like, but you don’t know what he looks like?

          I hope this doesn’t mean you two will go into battle now because you have been uncovered by me, and my offer to him.

          For that please forgive me, or whip me a 1000 times with a wet noodle.

          • It’s perfectly fine.

            He will be easy to spot.

            He’ll start shaking and fumble for his pistol full of black pepper and his spaghetti sword when I – by accident – approach him.


            I’d like to see what he looks like too – but maybe one day when he is brave enough….

          • more so with a belt you like that more

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Yeah but they can cheat and go look on face book if people here have it. Remember you told me to go look on USW face book to see what kind of hat you’re wearing when you were describing it a long time ago.

        That’s the advantage of face book.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        I made him an offer today to be my friend on my face book, and he declined, said he wanted to stay incognito, but if he chooses too, for me to look for a guy named Matthew getting kissed by a sea lion.

      • Kent,

        Looked pretty much like a “Kent” would look.

        One of the reasons Kent’s words and philosophies resonate with me so strongly is that his shell and his core – to me – appear almost exactly the same.

        When I saw his picture after reading that “article”, then I knew he was aligned, better or worse (but it doesn’t matter) – and worthy of serious contemplation.

        One day, if I appear in real as I feel inside, then I have reached the same plateau as Kent.

        Probably, he won’t be there. He’ll be one step higher.

        There is this Buddhist understanding of the “Accidental Buddha” – a spirit that moves over the Earth, never recognizing itself as a Buddha – but doing as a Buddha.

        Kent and John (aka USWep) are precisely this type of Buddha.

        • How do you “picture” me BF? I have no picture of you or USW in my mind, but it is an interesting thought. After you answer, if you do, I’ll set a picture for you, pretty simple actually.


          • Mine is on USWep’s his SUFA facebook site.

            You to me, “Rambo – First Blood!”

            I’ll be walking in a forest and out of some tree your face will appear – full body camo – a wound self-stitched with a cord made by a wheat stock, home-made bow with an arrow-grenade launcher….

            …and a big smile, while saying…

            “Damn you! What took you so long to get here!?!
            The soup has gone cold and the beer has gone warm!”

        • I wonder if this means I have to start working on that belly. Hmmmm. 😉

          I was going to assure you that I am no Buddha, but then I thought that sounded like something a Buddha would say, so then I started to say something else…. and now even this seems like…. oh well. I’m confused.

    • BF, I’ve never really been concerned with what one looks like, It’s whats in their heart and soul that makes people special. I don’t do the social sites like facebook, but I’m sure many know what I look like, not a big deal for me.

      Keep that brain of yours in top gear, that’s whats important


  31. Judy Sabatini says:

    This is both hysterical and a bit sad at the same

    Love Making Tips For Seniors

    1.. Wear your glasses.
    TO make sure your partner is actually in the bed..

    2. Set timer for 3 minutes,
    In case you doze off in the middle.

    3. Set the mood with lighting.
    (Turn them ALL OFF!)

    4.. Make sure you put 911 on your speed dial before you begin.

    5.. Write partner’s name on your hand in case you can’t remember.

    6. Use extra polygrip so your teeth don’t end up under the bed.

    7. Have Tylenol ready in case you actually complete the act..

    8. Make all the noise you want…
    The neighbors are deaf too.

    9. If it works, call everyone you know with the good news!!

    10. Don’t even think about trying it twice. .. . . . .. . . . . … . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN…
    Your sweetie says, ‘Let’s go upstairs And make love,’ and you answer, ‘Pick one; I can’t do both!’

    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN…
    Your friends compliment you on your new alligator shoes And you’re barefoot.

    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN…
    Going bra-less pulls all the wrinkles out of your face.

    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN….
    You don’t care where your spouse goes, just as long as you don’t have to go along.

    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN…
    You are cautioned to slow down by the doctor instead of by the police .

    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN..
    ‘Getting a little action’ means you don’t need to take any fiber today.

    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN…
    ‘Getting lucky’ means you find your car in the parking lot.

    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN…
    An ‘all nighter’ means not getting up to use the bathroom.


    ‘OLD’ IS WHEN…
    You are not sure if these are facts or jokes?

    (I sent this in large type
    So you can read it)

    • Keeping with the subject:

      OLD is when:

      Getting screwed originates in Washington D.C.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Hey, your dad sent me those reminding me I’m getting old. I told him he was being mean to me.

      • I would wish that some day, we can all unite, and that the Black Flags, Ray, Matt’s, Chris’s, USW’s, Todd’s, Charlie’s, Ellen’s, Judy’s, and everyone else not mentioned could one day, just come together and be free!

        I toast those that post, read, and argue, everyday, because at least you care enough to do so.

        Peace to All!


        • Judy Sabatini says:

          Wouldn’t that be great for all of us to be able to do that. Meet somewhere and really get to know each other. That’s a great wish G, for I have often wished that myself.

        • That would be fun! I think Judy would have her hands full with her ‘boys’. I suspect we’d need a few referee uniforms too! 🙂

    • Old is when…

      … you have to save Judy’s “What is Old”, because you are too old to read in at once.

  32. “to give up my anonymity”

    I feel your conflict.

    I was VERY reluctant to expose my picture – real reasons… but, heck, its one out of 350 million…what are the odds I’ll trip over you?

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      I’m taking it that your answer is for Mathius, but I am glad that you put your picture up, lets me know who I’m talking to. I like to be able to put the face with the name of the person I’m talking with. I try to picture a lot of people here and what they look like, but it’s hard to visualize.

  33. Judy Sabatini says:

    I think it’s time for me to say my good nights here and wish you all a very happy weekend.

    Good night and peaceful dreams.

    I love you all.


  34. Who benefits from healthccare reform gentlemen? Hint: It is most definitely not the American public.

    When you figure that one out do some research into where the stimulus funds went. Hint: Check front companies.

    Research the Democratic parties main contributors. Hint: Check front organizations.

    Our nation is headed for a drastic socio-economic change that will bring about a tremendous loss of freedom and liberty.This bill is not about reforming healthcare it is about controlling healtcares’ wealth.

    Without a doubt we now have the most radical administration in office that has ever been.Communists, Maoists, crooks, social deviants you name it and they are there in top appointed positions.If you have any doubt as to what they have planned as being beneficial to your liberty and freedoms then you are lieing to yourself and the people that depend upon you.

  35. Bottom Line says:

    Ronald Reagan on health care in 1961

    “Now back in 1927 an American socialist, Norman Thomas, six times candidate for president on the Socialist Party ticket, said the American people would never vote for socialism. But he said under the name of liberalism the American people will adopt every fragment of the socialist program. One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. Most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it.” –Ronald Reagan

  36. How Blanche Lincoln hopes to not get booted, distraction.

    As Chairman of the Senate Agriculture Committee, I’m looking forward to bringing the Committee to Little Rock next week for a field hearing on “Revitalizing Rural America.” The hearing will take place Monday, November 23, at 1:00 p.m. and will be hosted by the University of Arkansas Clinton School of Public Service at the Great Hall of the William J. Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock. I hope you will be able to attend.

    I will also host a statewide, Agriculture and Business Leadership Breakfast on Tuesday, November 24, to continue the conversation on how we can improve the state’s rural and small business economy. The event is scheduled from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m. at the Association of Arkansas Counties Board Room, 1415 Third Street, in Little Rock.

    Putting our economy back on the right track is my number one priority and I will use my chairmanship to reverse the devastating effects our ailing economy has had on Arkansans.

    Just this week, the Committee has been focused on two issues that are critical to getting our economy back on track. On Tuesday, the committee heard from Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack and four Arkansas witnesses at a hearing on the reauthorization of child nutrition programs. When so many families are struggling with job losses and a poor economy, our child nutrition programs are the safety net for families that allow them to continue to put a healthy meal on the table during these difficult times.

    On Wednesday, I chaired my first Agriculture Committee hearing on financial regulatory reform, a first step to passing reform legislation that will strengthen our nation’s financial systems and restore confidence to consumers and businesses across Arkansas. The committee will hold a second hearing on this issue December 2, with Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner scheduled to testify.

    Again, I hope you will take part in next week’s events in Little Rock and I look forward to hearing from Arkansans on how we can work together to put our economy on the right track toward recovery.

    With Arkansas Pride,

  37. v. Holland says:

  38. v. Holland says:

  39. Judy Sabatini says:

    Both great videos, but am I missing something here? Is it John Wayne day or something?

    • v. Holland says:

      No Judy 🙂 I just liked the message of both videos and sometimes I find the problems we are facing are depressing and I like to hear things that make me feel hopeful.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Hi V

        I was just wondering, thought maybe I was just missing something there and it was some special day for John Wayne.

        So, how goes your day today? Hope all is well with you.

        • v. Holland says:

          I’m doing good-slept in and I’m basically being lazy-have been looking around the house and thinking about cleaning but haven’t made any move in that direction 🙂 have just been playing on the computer.

          • Judy Sabatini says:

            Same here,no, not sleeping in, what’s that. Haven’t done that for years, up everyday after 5.

            I cleaned my house the other day, and a fat lot of good it did. Yesterday, it was so windy here, I had 100’s of leaves blow in through the doggie door, thankfully, hubby vacuumed them all up for me while I was grocery shopping today.

            My son’s just came over and now my peace and quiet is gone, like 2 magpies in here. They’re getting their snow boards ready for tomorrow, going snow boarding at Mt Rose, up by Lake Tahoe, got a new batch of snow there yesterday, and it’s the first they’ve had a chance to go.

            BTW, being lazy is okay as long as you don’t do it everyday. LOL

            • v. Holland says:

              Wind isn’t necessary to bring in the leaves and dirt around here-I have several puppies who think that’s their job-Jake who is year old tries to bring in tree trunks that you wouldn’t think would fit through the door but he’s smart and has learned to turn his head sideways,I guess it’s mean to let him bring them in,just to throw them back out the door but it’s so entertaining to see him figure out how to get them through the door.

              As far as laziness-I find I must be careful because it is always tempting to just read and chat on this blog everyday instead of work.

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                What kind of dog is Jake? It is funny to watch what dogs do. Ours did the same thing when he was a puppy. He would bring in limbs with the leaves still attached to them.

                Every morning I was always guaranteed to find some branches under the bed downstairs. I’d throw them out, and he’d bring them back, luckily though, he doesn’t do that anymore. He was great with chewing shoes and slippers too. I lost more pair than I can count.

                BYW, Our dog is a brindle boxer named Bruno, he’s about 3 now, but he is a really good dog. He follows me everywhere.

                Well, since I’m not working right now, I do what I have to do, and in between, I come here and see what’s going on and what the topic of the day
                is. Plus, most of my time is taking care of my mom too.

              • v. Holland says:

                He’s a black lab-getting very big but is still a puppy-he’s a good dog though just young and frisky. Bruno- good name for a boxer.

                Taking care of your Mom, I know it can be very time consuming and hard but worth it at the same time. My mom had alzheimers and I only had her 1 or 2 days a week and it was very hard but at the same time it gave me something that’s hard to explain.

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                My mom lives with us,has bee for the past year. She has some Dementia, but not asevere case of it. Cane remember things from years ago, but has short term memory loss. Says the same thing about 10 in 5 mintutes

                She was living with my sister, but she works anywhere from 10-12 hours a day at times, and it wasn’t safe to leave my mom alone for that length of time, so we went and got her and brought her here with us. She says she likes living here because she’s not lonely anymore.

                Afer my dad died 11 years ago, she kind of retreated back, and didn’t want to do anything, but sit around, and it wasn’t doing her or my sister any good.

                When I was working, she would come with me every day. I worked for my brother in law, and he didn;t mind in the least. His miother in law is kind of going though the same thing since she went through a stroke a few months ago.

                Now, my mom likes going places again, her color has come back, and she looks 100% better noe too. She looked like death warmed over when we went and picked her up.

                It’ kind of makes me go a little crazy, but hubb stays with her if I need to go do things, so that helps.

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                Sorry for the mistakes, just too squishy here and I can’t see what I’m saying.

              • v. Holland says:

                Character and Love gets us through the hard times and makes us strong-Really glad to hear that your mom is doing so well.

              • v. Holland says:

                Gotta go for awhile Judy-Have enjoyed talking to you.

  40. Interesting article in American Thinker.

    • v. Holland says:

      Very good article-we were talking about societal norms the other day-I sometimes wonder if all the acceptance of teen pregnancy and the screaming about freedom when we’re talking about all the sexual and just tacky crap that is on our TV’s, in our magazines and in our music, has anything to do with actual freedom but more to do with changing our societal norms in a way that has caused a lot of the problems that we have today.

      • Birdman and V,

        Both articles are right on the mark. And V, I think you nailed it. To many people, freedom means being to have sex with whomever you want, being irresponsible, and being just plain offensive to others. I’d say that to most of us here, freedom is something altogether different. Two Americas, indeed.

        • v. Holland says:

          I understand that a right is doing what you want as long as you don’t impose on someone else -I just know people will have different ideas of what those rights are or when someone is opposing theirs and I know somewhere in all this is a societies right to choose what kind of society they want to be. So I reckon the battle will continue. Can’t help but think that the lowering of morals is a part of whats destroying our country and it’s being done under the guise of freedom, and the suspicious part of my personality is beginning to think it’s not just a natural occurrence. Guess I’m the one starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist. 🙂

    • Another interesting article in American Thinker:

  41. Judy Sabatini says:

    Enjoyed talking with you too V. Have a good night.

  42. Hi Ya’ll!

    JAC, yes I remember the famous “kilroy was here” doodles that many soldiers made famous. I checked Wiki, cool story behind it.

    To All, I, in my constant search for knowledge, just watched a 2 1/2 hour movie on You Tube called Fall of the Republic. It is well worth the time and discusses the economy, Obamanots, Global Warming fraud and some other things. It sure would make for some good debate during Open Mic this week.

    Check it out:

    It’s long, but I’d love to here some of your opinions of it.


    • G-Man:

      I’ll watch it tonight.

      My 13 year old son is very good on the computer. He will download it and then route it to my DVR so we can watch it on my big screen TV.

    • Black Flag:

      Did you have a chance to watch this video? Do you plan to watch it?

  43. Let’s not rush to use the ‘rationing’ word. I’m against Obamacare but believe we need a mechanism to eliminate medical care that doesn’t work. This will improve medical quality and save billions of dollars. I think that Mammogate last week taught us that this may be impossible to accomplish. See

    • v. Holland says:

      Can’t help but acknowledge the very strong possibility that this report has come out right now-written by a panel of people who from my understanding has no oncologist on it, coming up with such a big difference in policy that the Cancer Society unless they have changed there minds in the last couple days disagrees with, even if it isn’t directly tied to the governments plans to control health care(and that is debatable), is certainly a foreshadowing of what is to come.

    • Dr Kirsch,

      It’s always a great thing to hear from you on this matter. It sheds some light to the reports that have come out recently. Your link was very interesting and provided some good info. While I may agree with your concept of rationing does not conform to the results of the report, is it not an inconcieved fear that rationing may be a reality if any of the current bills become law.

      I work at a hospital, and do get a lot of feedback from the doctors and nurses that work there, but if you could provide some firsthand feedback to all of us here, it would be greatly appreciated.

      Knowledge is golden, can you share yours with us?


      • Thank you G! for your kind words on my blog. What specific info of my ‘golden knowledge’ are you seeking?

        • Doctor, Sorry for the delay in replying. I also work in healthcare, not direct care as I am the Maintenance Logistics Tech. I also am involved with decon and emergency management (USAF background).

          My desire for your opinion was mostly about the Healthcare bills going through the Congress and what your concerns, fears and likes/dislikes about these bills.

          Today I was reading some more about the bill and who seems to be making out financially, as these types of legislation always has a money trail. I have looked hard, but can’t uncover where the Doc’s and Nurses much less patients will gain anything good from this. In fact, there is a part of both bills that give Sebulis (sp) the authority to force all healtcare workers (including doctors and nurses) into force union representation. I will do some research and post a link to the bill section that allows this.

          In my opinion, doctors need to left alone to do what they do best, there is already to much government stuff causing problems for all of you.

          Hope you get to read this and look forward to continued conversation.

          Thanks for all you do for all those you help!


    • Welcome Dr. Kirsch,

      Are you familiar with some the cost savings concepts of ThedaCare? These are the types of reforms I would like to hear about.

  44. Judy Sabatini says:

    Should Senators Read 2,074-Page Bill Before Voting?

    The Senate health care reform bill is 2,074 pages. So do you think members of the Senate should read the whole bill before they vote on it? And should their constituents know if they’ve read it?

    Yes, they should read every single page of it before they sign, if they sign.

    Yes, their constituents should know they have read it and to be able to understand what it says and what it means.

    • Not only should they read it, they should have to take a test after wards to show that they were listening and that they understood it.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Now, that’s like asking for a miracle.

        How you doing today V? Hope your day is going well.

        • v. Holland says:

          Doing good Judy-just been actually cleaning the house today instead of just thinking about it. 🙂

  45. Judy Sabatini says:

    Conservatives vow to continue fight against health bill
    Fred Jackson – OneNewsNow – 11/22/2009 5:45:00

    Conservatives say that although Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid got the votes he needed Saturday night to push the health reform bill on to the next phase, the battle is far from over.

    The final vote was 60 to 39 with all Democrat Senators supporting the more than two thousand page bill.

    Two final Democratic holdouts, Sens. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana and Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas, announced they would join in clearing the way for a full debate which is expected to begin after the Thanksgiving break.

    Conservatives were quick to condemn the Democrats.

    “This key vote will come back to haunt many of these senators,” stated Wendy Wright, President of Concerned Women for America. ” Several have tried to have it both ways. They say they oppose the bill yet at the most crucial time when only one Democrat senator could have changed or killed the bill, they supported it. They are on record as voting for a bill that will fund abortion, penalize married couples, ration health care, tax people for failing to have ‘ acceptable’ health insurance, prompt doctors to leave the profession and cause millions of Americans to lose their health coverage.”

    National Right to Life joined in the condemnation against the Democrats.

    In a statement, the pro-life group said “Senator Reid’s bill(on page 118) would authorize the federal government to pay for any and all abortions through a huge new federal health insurance program, the ” public option,” and also to subsidize purchase of private plans that cover abortion on demand.”

    One of the Republican senators who voted against the bill is Roger Wicker of Mississippi.

    In a press release, he stated “Tonight, Senate Democrats voted to bring their 2,074-page, $2.5 trillion health care reform bill to the floor for conideration. I voted no because it would implement job-killing tax increases, cut Medicare by nearly $500-billion, and raise the cost of health care for everyone.”

    Wicker says this not the kind of health care reforms Americans want.

    And he says although he is disappointed that this plan has advanced in the Senate, he welcomes the debate because the American people “will be given an opportunity to learn more about what is in this so-called ‘reform.’

  46. Wow, 2074 pages. That’s about $500,000 per page. Did I do the math right?

  47. Judy Sabatini says:

    Today is the 46th anniversary of John F. Kennedy’s assassination, and not one word is written anywhere about it, not even in the newspaper. Guess he’s not worth mentioning anymore from the press for what I can see.

    • Bottom Line says:

      Interesting observation Judy.

      “If anyone is crazy enough to want to kill a president of the United States, he can do it. All he must be prepared to do is give his life for the president’s.”

      – John F. Kennedy

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Hi BL

        Was just thinking about that this morning, and as I was reading the paper didn’t notice one thing about it in there. Just the same old crap, Obama, Reid and the health care bit and everything else that’s been going on in the world.

        Was remembering I was in the 7th grade when that happened, and when they announced that at school that day, I remember how all us kids were in such shock and how some of them were crying and how numb we all felt when we heard that.

        I also remember watching his funeral and crying as I watched and I noticed how Jackie held herself, her head still high, but yet see the sadness on her face.

        I was on the disappointed side when I didn’t see anything today in the paper, but I did see they had something I think on one of the cable channels earlier today. Didn’t watch it though was busy doing something else and I thought I could catch the endof it at least, but missed it.

        That was my thoughts on this day 46 years ago and where I was when it happened and how I felt about it.

        Hope you had a good weekend BL, and hope to see you here tomorrow.

        You take care, okay


        • Strange how these dates can be forgotten. One well known day “Tax Day”, April 15, also gas a history. At 7:12:10 am, Predident Abe Lincoln was pronounced dead in 1865, from a gunshot wound to the head.

          John Wilkes Boothe was hunted down and killed within 12 days of his actions.

          Interesting how the daeths of thousands are far more remembered on the anniversary, than that of a President. Maybe politicians should just be buried and forgotten!


  48. Off topic….

    The other day some here were wondering what can be done now to save our freedom. I especially like the part about no lattes and no arugula 🙂 The writer seems to be of a similar mind as Black Flag.

    The nervous nellies and nattering nabobs of negativity here are as clueless as the Obamabots. You folks still just don’t get it — without the Consent of the Governed there is NO BUSINESS AS USUAL.

    And without business as usual, the people of NYC, DC, LA and San Fran CANNOT EVEN FEED THEMSELVES OR CONTINUE THEIR SUPERFLUOUS LIFESTYLES. When it comes right down to it, the liberal-dominated so-called ‘power centers’ uniquely produce virtually nothing necessary to sustain even their own lives — mainly what these blue-state statists do is consume. An abrupt end to business as usual means an abrupt end to consumption — they are simply NOT prepared to handle that, so don’t even waste time thinking that they will even go there.

    Without business as usual there will be no lattes. No arugula. No market for California wines or wine country tourism. No market for overpriced NYC/CT/Mass real estate. No middleclass base to support Oprah, hip-hop thug subculture or the exorbitant salaries of the NFL, NBA, MLB and the stars of blockbuster movies. No free markets for Wall St.

    And Obama, Pelosi, Reid and company can’t undermine the Constitution without at the same time undermining their OWN claim of legitimate authority which itself is based upon that very same Constitution.

    • Cyndi,

      this sounds more like a potential plan than a problem. Something to think about.


      • It would have to be done quietly. If there were too much publicity it could backfire. There would an enemy for the Leftists to target and blame. It would just have to happen, seemingly on its own. Things would just slow down, or not be available. The idea is to increase the misery one degree at a time. Maybe that will wake up the masses…..

        • I posted a link last night to a video, it might, and I say that with an open mind, make sense of things. It’s not to far above


          • Hey G,

            This little lump of Pacific coral I’m sitting on has dial up internet. Videos are difficult, if not impossible, to open. What’s the gist of it?

            • Cyndi, It talks of the economy and the troubles we have, and are likely to have. Also about how easy it was to use old school psych warfare to get Obama elected (that was interesting). It went into detail about the man-made global warming fraud, and then talked about how our youth groups (boy scouts/girl scouts) are being indoctrinated to whistleblow on me and you.

              It’s called Fall of the Republic and can be ordered on DVD. As soon as I get my new Cd/DVD copier at work, I can burn copies, as they want it to go viral, so it’s free to the public.

              I posted my email in a reply to BF, if you would like more info.


  49. Another off topic,

    This has left me speechless….

    • Oh my, Cyndi. I’ve read of acid attacks but have never seen the results in living color.

      • Its very disturbing, isn’t it? We’re starting to see ‘honor’ killings in the US. Its just a matter of time until we start to see acid attacks. I wonder what the reaction of the Feminists will be. They’ve been very silent on it. I don’t see why that would change if the attacks begin to happen in America. Some women in America think they have it bad. Next time I hear one complain, I think I’ll send them the link to that website.

  50. Judy Sabatini says:

    Hope you have a good night and a good day tomorrow.

    Will see everybody here then.

    Good Night to All


  51. SNL does skit on Obama and China Press Conference……hilarious

  52. The Debt Bomb…..

    I wonder what the “Obama has saved the economy” people will say when this hits…

  53. A little something for us conspiracy theory types…;)

    Cloward-Piven Government
    By James Simpson
    It is time to cast aside all remaining doubt. President Obama is not trying to lead America forward to recovery, prosperity and strength. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    In September of last year, American Thinker published my article, Barack Obama and the Strategy of Manufactured Crisis. Part of a series, it connected then presidential candidate Barack Obama to individuals and organizations practicing a malevolent strategy for destroying our economy and our system of government. Since then the story of that strategy has found its way across the blogosphere, onto the airwaves of radio stations across the country, the Glenn Beck television show, Bill O’Reilly and now Mark Levin.

    The methodology is known as the Cloward-Piven Strategy, and we can all be grateful to David Horowitz and his Discover the Networks for originally exposing and explaining it to us. He describes it as:

    The strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. The “Cloward-Piven Strategy” seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.

    Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven were two lifelong members of Democratic Socialists of America and taught sociology at Columbia University (Piven later went on to City University of New York). In a May, 1966 Nation magazine article titled “The Weight of the Poor,” they outlined their strategy, proposing to use grassroots radical organizations to push ever more strident demands for public services at all levels of government.

    The result, they predicted, would be “a profound financial and political crisis” that would unleash “powerful forces … for major economic reform at the national level.”

    They implemented the Strategy by creating a succession of radical organizations but most notably the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), with the help of veteran organizer Wade Rathke. Their crowning achievement was the “Motor Voter” act, signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1993 with Cloward and Piven standing behind him.

    As we now know, ACORN was one of the chief drivers of high-risk mortgage lending that eventually led to the financial crisis. But the Motor Voter law was another component of the strategy. It created vast vulnerabilities in our electoral system which ACORN then exploited.

    ACORN’s vote registration scandals throughout the U.S. are predictable fallout.

    The Motor Voter law has also been used to open another vulnerability in the system: the registration of vast numbers of illegal aliens, who then vote reliably Democrat. Herein lies the real reason Democrats are so anxious for open borders, security be damned.

    It should be clear to anyone with a mind and two eyes that this president and this Congress do not have our interests at heart. They are implementing this strategy on an unprecedented scale by flooding America with a tidal wave of poisonous initiatives, orders, regulations and laws. As Rahm Emmanuel said, “A crisis is a terrible thing to waste.”

    The real goal of “healthcare” legislation, the real goal of “cap and trade,” the real goal of “stimulus” is to rip the guts out of our private economy and transfer wide swaths of it over to government control. Do not be deluded by the propaganda. These initiatives are vehicles for change. They are not goals in and of themselves, except in their ability to deliver power, and will make matters much worse, for that is their design.

    This time, in addition to overwhelming the government with demands for services, Obama and the Democrats are overwhelming political opposition to their plans with a flood of apocalyptic legislation. Their ultimate goal is to leave us so discouraged, demoralized and exhausted that we throw our hands up in defeat. As Barney Frank said “the middle class will be too distracted to fight.”

    These people are our enemies. They don’t use guns, yet, but they are just as dangerous, determined and duplicitous as the communists we faced in the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam and bush wars across the globe, and the Nazis we faced in World War II.

    It is time we fully internalized and digested this fact, with all its ugly ramifications. These people have violated countless laws, and could be prosecuted, had we the political power. Not only are their policies unconstitutional, but deliberately so – the goal being to make the Constitution irrelevant. Their spending is off the charts and will drive us into hyperinflation, but could be rescinded, had we the political power. These policies are toxic, but could be stopped and reversed, had we the political power. Their ideologies are poisonous, but could be exposed for what they are, with long jail sentences as an object lesson, had we the political power.

    Every single citizen who cares about this country should be spending every minute of his/her spare time lobbying, organizing, writing and planning. Fight every initiative they launch. It is all destructive. If we are to root out this evil, it is critical that in 2010 we win competent, principled leaders willing to defend our constitution and our country. Otherwise the malevolent cabal that occupies the seat of government today will become too entrenched.

    After that all bets are off.

  54. G! I am please to respond. I give a fair amount of commentary on health care reform at under Health Reform Quality category. I hope you would feel free to share the site with your readers.

    In summary, I do not support the current bills that have passed in the House and will be debated in the Senate. My objections may be moot, since it is not definite that the Senate will pass a bill that can be reconciled with the House bill, but most likely they will be able to settle their differences in conference. Moreover, any Democratic senators who have misgivings (e.g. Landrieu, Nelson and Lincoln), will be subjected to intense pressure to vote with the majority. I don’t feel that either bill controls costs, which will drown the system entirely in a few years. I don’t believe that the quality of medical care will improve from the current versions of reform. I do believe that the bills would cover most of the uninsured, but I strongly suspect that it will cost much more to do this than they currently state. For sure, the reform effort will be more expensive than they claim and it will deliver less than they promise. I do believe that seniors and others will have cutbacks in their coverage, as there isn’t enough money to fulfull every constituency’s wish list. What is the plan to increase the number of primary care physicians to accommodate the millions who would have coverage? This is exactly the difficulty that Massachusettes faced when they mandated insurance coverage for (nearly) all. Neither majority in both houses of congress addresses tort reform, an omission of great consequence. I am always very wary of the ‘public option’, which I fear is an incremental step toward full government control. We already have a version of the public option called Medicare. While it is popular with enrollees, it is breaking the bank with unrestrained care. Those are some quick thoughts on the fly. Do they clarify or confuse?

    • Doctor,

      Thank you for your reply, and no it didn’t confuse at all. many of your opinions have been reinforced by many on this site, as well as my personnal discussions with doctors where I am employed.

      I started a post on your blog, but couldn’t find the link to support it, therefore I chose not to post. My subject was a section of both bills, that give the power to Sebulious (SP) to mandate ALL healthcare workers fall into forced unionization, including doctors.

      I will have to do more research to find the one section that allows this (it’s a huge bill), but would like to warn you and your fellow doctors of another, in a very long list, of economic travesties that befront us.

      I will do the work and post on your blog, as I feel it is very important to the industry, and to all of our future healthcare. Please keep coming and posting on Stand Up for America, we need everyone we can to fix what is happening to our great country. I ask that as a veteran! Bring evreyone you can with you!

      Thanks Doc! I look forward to providing as much real information about this to you and your colleagues as possible, and you will hear from me on your blog.

      God Bless!


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