Guest Commentary – A Trip to Oz

We have guest commentary moved to a different night. I took some of the advice that was offered and moved the guest commentary to a different night in order to give the writings of others a little more exposure. Tonight we get to hear from a long time reader and active participant at Stand Up For America. But in an interesting twist on topics, he has offered up an article that takes a look at one of the big conspiracy theories that are out there. He compiled a lot of information that was out there and linked some things together. The point in presenting such an article is not to make folks panic or even to espouse a belief that they are true. He merely offered the article as a look into one of them for folks to peruse and consider. I have to be honest and say that I was unsure whether this was a topic that I wanted covered at SUFA, but in the end, I have decided that it isn’t my place to determine the answer to that. While I may be the creator of this site, I am still here to serve all of you. And that means that you get to discuss what you want to discuss.

What was interesting for me was to read all of this information and process it. As I have stated many times, I am not a big conspiracy theory believer. That hasn’t changed for me, but what I always find when I read them is that I have questions that are unanswered. And this is perhaps why these types of theories persist; the answers to absolutely refute them are simply not there. You can’t prove that they are false, but you can’t prove they are false. And that leads some to embrace them, some to scoff at them, and the rest to fall in the middle. I am in the middle. I usually feel that the simple explanations are the correct ones most of the time. And that means that the complexity needed for conspiracy theories to remain plausible usually fails my tests. But that is just me. So take this in folks, and discuss it, and weigh the facts versus the assumptions. Perhaps the answers to refuting this or proving something about it lie in the readership of SUFA! I do want to say up front that all the pictures were added by me. They are meant to have fun with the subject and in no way are meant to offend or belittle anyone’s opinions or beliefs.

A Trip to the Land of OZ
By G-Man

Watching his followers is like a bad Illuminati Movie!

Parts of this came up during discussions Monday night of last week, the subject I will present should prove quite interesting. I will attempt to converge two separate conspiracy theories, using numerous sources, in an attempt to build a puzzle of sorts. I have always found conspiracy theories interesting and entertaining, but also took them with a grain of salt. I have found, while researching this subject, that I felt like I had entered the Land of OZ (without a cute Dorothy to hang out with, LOL), so join me on this journey.

With so much talk about the New World Order, one world government and one world currency, is it a theory? Is it something to be aware of? Here’s an excerpt that explains it:

There is a worldwide conspiracy being orchestrated by an extremely powerful and influential group of genetically-related individuals (at least at the highest echelons) which include many of the world’s wealthiest people, top political leaders, and corporate elite, as well as members of the so-called Black Nobility of Europe (dominated by the British Crown) whose goal is to create a One World (fascist) Government, stripped of nationalistic and regional boundaries, that is obedient to their agenda. Their intention is to effect complete and total control over every human being on the planet and to dramatically reduce the world’s population by 5.5 Billion people. While the name New World Order is a term frequently used today when referring to this group, it’s more useful to identify the principal organizations, institutions, and individuals who make up this vast interlocking spiderweb of elite conspirators.

In 1992, Dr John Coleman published Conspirators’ Hierarchy: The Story of the Committee of 300. With laudable scholarship and meticulous research, Dr Coleman identifies the players and carefully details the Illuminati agenda of worldwide domination and control. On page 161 of the Conspirators Hierarchy, Dr Coleman accurately summarizes the intent and purpose of the Committee of 300 as follows:

“A One World Government and one-unit monetary system, under permanent non-elected hereditary oligarchists who self-select from among their numbers in the form of a feudal system as it was in the Middle Ages. In this One World entity, population will be limited by restrictions on the number of children per family, diseases, wars, famines, until 1 billion people who are useful to the ruling class, in areas which will be strictly and clearly defined, remain as the total world population.

In addition to being killed in ground conflicts on foreign soil, US military forces will likely be reduced in the next few years through disease induced attrition (i.e. from mandatory Anthrax Vaccinations required of all US military personnel). These vaccinations will, in all probability, eventually produce the symptoms of the so-called Gulf War Illness, which was acquired by a certain percentage of Gulf War soldiers who were given a “special” anthrax vaccine (intended by the Illuminati/CIA as a test run to ascertain how quickly (and fatally) the disease would progress with a substantial population of healthy young men and women).

The sheer magnitude and complex web of deceit surrounding the individuals and organizations involved in this conspiracy is mind boggling, even for the most astute among us. Most people react with disbelief and skepticism towards the topic, unaware that they have been conditioned (brainwashed) to react with skepticism by institutional and media influences that were created by the Mother of All mind control organizations: The Tavistock Institute of Human Relations in London. Author and de-programmer Fritz Springmeier (The Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines ) says that most people have built in “slides” that short circuit the mind’s critical examination process when it comes to certain sensitive topics. “Slides”, Springmeier reports, is a CIA term for a conditioned type of response which dead ends a person’s thinking and terminates debate or examination of the topic at hand. For example, the mention of the word “conspiracy” often solicits a slide response with many people. (Springmeier has co-authored three books on trauma-based programming which detail how the Illuminati employs highly tuned and extrememly sophisticated Mind Control (MC) training programs that begin the programming process while the intended victim is still within the womb. Mind Control is a much greater problem than most people realize. According to Cisco Wheeler, a former Illuminati mind control programmer, there are 10 million people who have been programmed as mind controlled slaves using trauma-based MC programs with names like Monarch and MK Ultra. The newer, non-trauma, electronic means of MC programming that grew out of the Montauk Project, may include millions more. Al Bielek, who played a principle role in the development of the Montauk Project, said that there likely 10 million victims of Montauk style mind control programming worldwide, the majority located in the USA. He also said that there are covert Montauk Programming ‘Centers’ in every major city in the U.S. )

http://www.educate-yourself.org/nwo/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montauk_Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)

The most striking part of that article was the number of the population on earth, 1 billion. There are currently 6 billion occupying our planet. So what do they plan on doing with 5 million humans in order to achieve their goal? Also of interest is the mind control techniques and how they have been able to “turn people off” about conspiracies.

As we ride through the Land of OZ, the New World Order may have a plan! That’s the next conspiracy theory, FEMA Concentration camps and the laws that make them work. This is where I had a hard time reading all this stuff, as it is very disturbing, as you will see.

First, general information and the laws that allow there existence (link provided):

There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general’s signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft’s list. The REX 84 PROGRAM was established on the reasoning that if a “mass exodus” of illegal aliens crossed the Mexican/US border, they would be quickly rounded up and detained in detention centers by FEMA. Rex 84 allowed many military bases to be closed down and to be turned into prisons. Operation Cable Splicer and Garden Plot are the two sub programs which will be implemented once The REX 84 PROGRAM is initiated for its proper purpose. Garden Plot is the program to control the population. Cable Splicer is the program for an orderly takeover of the state and local governments by the federal government. FEMA is the executive arm of the coming police state and thus will head up all operations. The Presidential Executive Orders already listed on the Federal Register also are part of the legal framework for this operation. The camps all have railroad facilities as well as roads leading to and from the detention facilities. Many also have an airport nearby. The majority of the camps can house a population of 20,000 prisoners. Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people. Now let’s review the justification for any actions taken… Executive Orders associated with FEMA that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:.

OFFICIAL EXECUTIVE ORDERS LIST:

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990

allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995

allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997

allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998

allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999

allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000

allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001

allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002

designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003

allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004

allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005

allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051

specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310

grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049

assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921

allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA’s Civil Security Division stated in a 1983 conference that he saw FEMA’s role as a “new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis.” FEMA’s powers were consolidated by President Carter to incorporate the… National Security Act of 1947 allows for the strategic relocation of industries, services, government and other essential economic activities, and to rationalize the requirements for manpower, resources and production facilities. 1950 Defense Production Act gives the President sweeping powers over all aspects of the economy. Act of August 29, 1916 authorizes the Secretary of the Army, in time of war, to take possession of any transportation system for transporting troops, material, or any other purpose related to the emergency. International Emergency Economic Powers Act enables the President to seize the property of a foreign country or national. These powers were transferred to FEMA in a sweeping consolidation in 1979.

http://www.uaff.info/femacamps.htm

Basically, if there is a total economic collapse, the Feds can control everything, cancel elections, and imprison anyone they want. This also means you and I will have NO Constitutional Rights! How will they do this? Let’s look at Operation Gardenplot:

The official name of this project is called “Operation Garden Plot.”

Under this plan for the deployment of Operation Garden Plot, the use of CIDCON-1 will be mandatory. This direct support of civil disturbance control operations is to be used by the Army, USAF, Navy, and Marine Corp. with an airlift force to be comprised of MAC Organic Airlift Resources, airlift capable aircraft of all other USAF major commands, and all other aerial reconnaissance and Airborne Psychological Operations. This is to include control communications systems, aero-medical evacuation, helicopter and Weather Support Systems.

If any civil disturbance by a resistance group, religious organization, or other persons considered to be non-conformist takes place, under Appendix 3 to Annex B of Plan 55-2 hereby gives all Federal forces total power over the situation if local and state authorities cannot put down said dissenters.

Annex A, section B of Operation Garden Plot defines tax protesters, militia groups, religious cults, and general anti-government dissenters as Disruptive Elements. This calls for the deadly force to be used against any extremist or dissident perpetrating any and all forms of civil disorder.

Under section D, a Presidential Executive Order will authorize and direct the Secretary of Defense to use the Armed Forces of the United States to restore order.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/operationgardenplot.html

FEMA Boxcars

FEMA Boxcars

By building boxcars for the railways, complete with chains and shackles, they can transport thousands at a time to one location, the last location, forever.

http://pimpinturtle.com/2008/02/01/fema-ordered-102000-boxcars-with-shackles.aspx

OH!, I almost forgot another small detail on these boxcars:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/guillotines_in_montana.htm

Yes, your read the word guillotines correctly. Now the Land of OZ must really be a bad place, has your heart sunk into your belly yet? Gets better! How can they possibly get rid of the bodies of maybe 250,000 American citizens? They have a plan:

Plastic coffin liners being deployed!

http://www.infowars.com/plastic-coffin-liners-being-delivered-by-the-truckloads/#

I know what your saying, this is BS! Well, why then would FEMA have a patent on them?

http://vodpod.com/watch/2063478-omg-fema-coffins-odorless-virus-containment-cremation-containers

That’s a lot to read and stomach, so how will they accomplish this withour having mass chaos? Darn, they have a plan. Are you on one of these lists?

FEMA CAMPS AND THE RED AND BLUE LIST UNDER MARTIAL LAW

Pam Schuffert

12/16/2007 22:32:31

While I have no doubt that the NWO-cravers at the CIA have their own list of people to round up and terminate, the actual proper agency behind the now-infamous “RED/BLUE LISTS” is none other than “FEMA BLACK OPS.” FEMA is NOT here to primarily HELP YOU. Under a full state of MARTIAL LAW, FEMA is here to send you to their DETENTION CAMPS to sort out WHO SHALL live AND WHO SHALL DIE. Those unfortunates whose names are found among the MILLIONS OF FELLOW AMERICANS on FEMA RED / BLUE LISTS will never come out of the FEMA CAMPS alive, although they may have to go through hell before they are finally terminated. Such “offenders” are essentially deemed RESISTERS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER, as my CIA and military insiders told me personally. “Oh, ALL OF US in the CIA know ALL ABOUT the concentration camps in America and their purpose! We ALL KNOW that their purpose is to TERMINATE ‘RESISTERS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER’ UNDER MARTIAL LAW!” (Source-Michael Maholy, 20 years Naval Intelligence/CIA under BUSH SR) For example, THE FEMA DEATH CAMP OF THE MOJAVE is a full gassing/cremating DEATH CAMP, dedicated to the TERMINATION OF ALL ON FEMA’S RED/BLUE LIST UNDER MARTIAL LAW. I have previously documented this horrific death camp, and documented the eyewitness accounts of several former NWO supporters who were flown out there. My friends, DOC MARQUIS (Illuminati) and ELAINE KNOST (CIA/Luciferian), formerly high level Illuminati Luciferians but now Christians for many years, were both flown separately to this facility in the Mojave Desert of California. It boasts a landing strip. According to another contact, a DEA agent who personally investigated this FEMA facility, it was recently DOUBLED IN SIZE TO INCREASE KILLING CAPACITY. It is fully staffed. All staff members WEAR BLACK SWAT TEAM UNIFORMS. When I asked Doc Marquis what his sentiments were, back when he was a member of the Illuminati and given a tour of this killing facility, his reply was, “SHEER JOY! I REJOICED at the thought of CHRISTIANS BEING TERMINATED IN THIS PLACE!” A chilling response, but typical of this nation’s Satanists and NWO supporters! This FEMA death camp was shown off as something the NWO and FEMA was literally PROUD OF!!! And there are MANY more FEMA detention camps whose ultimate purpose under MARTIAL LAW is NOT TO SAVE LIFE, but to TERMINATE HUMAN LIVES DEEMED UNWORTHY OF ENTERING INTO THE DAWNING OF LUCIFER’S NEW WORLD ORDER. KNOW THE COLD HARD FACTS ABOUT FEMA! And then think TWICE before going meekly to such camps under a STATE OF MARTIAL LAW in YOUR region.

We are all on a Red or Blue list somewhere, those on the red list will be woken at 4am and taken to the camps and probably killed.

Red List – These people are the enemies of the NWO. They are the leaders of patriot groups, outspoken ministers, outspoken talk show hosts, community leaders, and even probably NET leaders. These people will be dragged out of their homes at 4:00 am and will be taken to FEMA detention centers and killed. This will take place approximately 2 weeks before martial law is enforced.

Blue List – these are also enemies of the NWO, but are followers of the Red List folks. These people will be rounded up after martial law is in place, and will be taken to the detention centers and ‘re-educated’. Various mind-control techniques will used on them. Most will not survive this. Mr. Springmeier was not specific on exactly who was on the Blue List, but I would guess that people such as you and I are on that list.

Yellow List – these are citizens who know nothing about the NWO and don’t want to know. They are considered to be no threat at all and will be instructed as to how to behave and will most likely do whatever they are told. Unfortunately there are too many of these to be effectively controlled, so many will be killed or starved.

Shenandoah

http://www.uaff.info/femacamps.htm

When will all this really fun Land of OZ stuff start? The Russians may know!

In what Russian Military Analysts are describing as a ëstunning blowí to the American people seeking to free their government from the grip of tyranny, a new report issued today by the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) is warning that President Obama has ordered that all dissident US Citizens be ëeffectively disappearedí by March 1, 2010 as fears of civil war continue growing in that fast collapsing country

For in an unprecedented move this past week, and (as always) not reported to the American people by their propaganda media organs, the United States Supreme Court, in a one-line ruling, declared that torture is an ìordinary, expected consequence of military detentionî, and stated that anyone who is arbitrarily declared a ìsuspected enemy combatantî by President Obama or his designated officials is ìno longer a person

So many warnings, in fact, have been given about the impending collapse into chaos and civil war about to overtake the United States that the GRU, for the first time, states in these reports that the ìgrim assessmentî given by Professor Igor Panarin of Russiaís Foreign Affairs Ministry of the collapse and breakup of America in 2010 is ìmore than prophetic, it is a certaintyî.

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1313.htm

To continue the how will they do this, we discussed this last Spring:

GPS coordinates for every home!

http://www.noonehastodietomorrow.com/agenda/bigbrother/1066?task=view

There you have it, your trip to the Land of OZ with G-Man as your host. I hope you enjoyed the ride.

Now it’s up to you to cast this off as bulldookie, or think about it real hard. That’s the best part of conspiracy theories, most never come true, let’s hope this one follows suit.

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Comments

  1. Well, I know I’m on the list that says:

    “Get him or shoot him or make him leave this planet!”

    G-Man, here’s the damn thing.

    Probably 90% of what you posted can be confirmed.

    The “System” will focus on the 10% that cannot.

    They will claim, thus, 100% of what you posted is false.

  2. Holy crap – no time to respond – I have to go finish my igloo and start chipping thru the perma-frost to dig my cave for summer.

    And don’t fill out those census forms – they’ll just use them to track you down!!

  3. This is the first of 8 parts.

    It is worth listening to all 8 parts, in fact, I urge it.

    GO G-MAN!

    • BF;

      Watched all 8 parts…interesting. Is there information (credible) that proposes what may have actually taken place?

      I have heard folks discuss the idea that it was a government plot, but is there information out there that details who and why 911 took place?

      I don’t believe anyone can argue that two planes hit the twin towers (there is just to many eye witness reports).

      I am curious about this.

      CM

      • CM

        A “government plot” can be expressed incredibly broadly –

        – from knowing it was going to happen and doing nothing to all the way to planning and executing.

        Also there are the consequences – “Who benefited?”

        We may never know the extent – but we certainly can see who benefited from it. This can give us clues to work back from.

        As far as 9/11 here are the major flaws;

        WTC 1/2 collapse at freefall

        WTC 7 collapse at all! and its freefall.

        The findings of thermate in the dust of WTC’s.

        And the wholly contradictory flight recorder of the Pentagon plane. This one has got me perturbed.

        Why not answer the question to why the flight recorder is wrong? Why is the flight recorder wrong? Where did this flight recorder come from and where is the real one?

    • I will watch it all when I get home tonight, although I have watched similar videos before. The most damning evidence against the 9/11 conspiracy is the logistics of it all. Hundreds if not thousands of individuals would have had to plan, prepare and execute the WTC demolition. The conspiracy relies on each one of those individuals to keep the event in complete secrecy for the rest of their lives.

      • Bob,

        The logistics of it is so easy and simple –

        Thermate can be painted on. All it would take is a bunch of ‘painters’ to come in – during the day even – and apply it.

        The number of people is irrelevant.

        A long dialogue with D13 demonstrated that men will hold to their oath and do evil just fine.

        It seems you are unaware of war secrets that are kept secret for decades by thousands of people. This is a surprise to you?

        • Come on BF have you seen thermite and how you have to deliver it? You dont just paint the stuff onto irregular shaped steel beams and expect it to cut through, unless they coated it 30cm thick. Have you seen what they use to cut through steel? They use big canisters so they can focus the heat. A layer of paint will not cut it. Thermite does not work that way.

          http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

          Note the size of the container used to deliver the thermite explosion and the thickness of the steel rod, a layer of paint is not going to have that same explosive force needed.

          http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

          • Thermite’s main ingredients were also utilized for their individual qualities, specifically reflectivity and heat insulation, in a paint coating or dope for the Hindenburg, possibly contributing to its fiery destruction

            So much for your “it can’t be paint” theory.

            Further, cutting of the beams probably wasn’t paint – I am referring to the obliteration of the floors, walls and concrete.

            • I dont think the fabric used on the Hindenburg and concrete have the same properties. Anyways the thermite paint idea about the Hindenburg was debunked by the Mythbusters team.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_%282007_season%29#Hindenburg_Mystery

              Ah so it wasnt thermite that destroyed the pillars, so it must have been a conventional explosive they used on demolitions. This brings in a whole new world of hurt. Now we have teams coming in everyday for months exposing pillars and rigging explosives and then covering their tracks with no knowledge of this from anyone.

              • The thermite paint was to show that thermite can be painted – you asked for an example – it was the easiest to provide.

                I did not say it brought the Hindenburg down.

                And those teams could have very easily done that – as S.K. showed one possible way.

                People do not “know” what maintenance is doing – they are generally ignored.

                And so what if it took weeks? You on some sort of time schedule rush? This is called ‘pre-planting’ – it didn’t have to be done in a day.

                And there were records no doubt….. in the head office….a few hundred feet away….in Tower WTC 7….

              • I never denied that thermite could be added to paint it is simply a powder after all, I was disputing that a layer of paint could be used to cut through a steel beam. You countered with thermite not being used for the beams so you have agreed they used conventional explosives. Fair enough I will go along with you for now.

                For steel supported buildings, demolition companies use a compound called Cyclotrimethylenetrinitamine which has an ignition temperature of 260 C.

                The demolition company that brought down the Hudson building which is less than half the size of the towers used 1,237 kilos of explosive, so I imagine they used more for the WTC, again this was done in complete secrecy.

                So the 1,000 KG+ explosives sat for 90 minutes while being subjected to temperatures four times higher than its ignition temperature and then exploded.

                Your not making a believer out of me yet BF.

              • Bob,

                Your first assumption is in error – that they used the typical explosives.

                They would not – since as you’ve shown – they can be triggered by even a small fire.

                As there have been many fires in the towers, that would be a bizarre risk.

                Thermate/Thermite can not be set off by any combustion fire – their ignition point is about 1000 higher. They are typically set off by a magnisum
                fuse.

                Thus, thermite is very safe to use where fire maybe present.

                Again, the secrecy thing is too easy to deal with as already laid out.

                Even most probable, the ones installing the stuff didn’t even know what they were installing.

              • Wait a minute so you have already ruled out thermite cutting the support columns and conventional explosives which leaves us with….?

                Please dont say SECRET SUPER NANO MEGA THERMITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! like I have read when looking into this on other sites.

              • I don’t think Thermate has been ruled out.

                Don’t confuse application with existence.

                There are many ways to apply thermate to the structure over and above paint.

                Ask SK said, through a tubes looking like cable or tape, etc.

              • See below

      • Here’s one I know you haven’t heard of …

        Operation Gladio, a clandestine “stay-behind” operation sponsored by the CIA and NATO to counter communist influence after World War II throughout European countries, is publicly revealed after being kept secret for 45 years.

        Hard to believe, Bob?

        • Oh I believe the government has done many things we will know nothing about. My problem is this statement:

          “The number of people is irrelevant.”

          Every person that is in on the conspiracy multiplies the risk of discovery by one. The more people involved, the higher the chance of discovery. There is a difference between clandestine crap by small CIA teams to the huge amount of manpower from both civilian and military personnel needed to demolish the WTC.

          • Bob,

            12,000 people knew about the Manhattan project.

            No one found out about the bomb.

            A conspiracy by idiots will fail – lots of news reports have shown this.

            A conspiracy by oath-takers that are not idiots is a different thing.

            You do not understand the power of an “oath”, and the power of “duty” in its ability to align participants.

            • Hi Black Flag,

              In your opinion, is the FEMA camp consipracy one of idiots, since so many people suspect what’s going on? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

              • First, “FEMA” camps is a misnomer.

                The are actually Homeland Security Detention Facilities.

                It is disturbing that they exist, in the numbers and size.

                The US holds the largest percentage of its citizens in jail – bar none – in the world.

                Building more of them is not a good sign for the future.

            • Bad example, the Manhattan project was riddled with spies as it was never mind the simple act of a man talking to his wife about the project for instance.

              http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/espionage.htm

              • You have a strange definition of bad example.

                Quote:

                Security was a way of life for the Manhattan Project. The goal was to keep the entire atomic bomb program secret from Germany and Japan. In this, Manhattan Project security officials succeeded.

                The fact that Russia and other US allies knew about it was (shock) they were told about it.

                FDR informed both Stalin and Churchill about “the Bomb” at the Yalta conference.

                Notice that even then, the Germans or Japanese did not know.

                Secrets can be keep by huge numbers for a long time – if oath and duty are invoked.

                Ask D13 or USWep or G-Man about how powerful these are….

              • Hey I can play this game too!

                “They also sought, however, to keep word of the atomic bomb from reaching the Soviet Union.

                Very first paragraph.

                The Yalta conference was in 1945, Russian spies had been giving information to the Soviet Union since 1943.

              • My point, sir, as already established is that a secret can be held by thousands – tens of thousands in fact.

                Since neither the Germans or Japanese had knowledge, my demonstration is successful.

                And this is ONE secret – there are thousands more that are still held today.

                Again, my point.

                Men will do evil and never reveal it for their duty and oath to be fulfilled.

                This is how men can kill millions in a blink of an eye.

              • Ah so the Manhattan project was a secret except when it wasnt.

                I would say a successful conspiracy would mean 100% of the people you wanted to keep the secret from didnt know about it, not 66%.

                It always makes me chuckle when people start reeling off operation names and say “See all these things the government did and kept it secret from us!” Hmmmmm :/

              • No, Bob.

                A successful conspiracy is one that works.

                It is your demand of 100% secrecy.

                It is not needed.

                All you need is men who will do their duty.

                And chuckle you do, because you do not understand.

                You did not know about those operations when they were going on.

                They completed.

                They were successful.

                And when you can’t do a darn thing about them, you now know about them.

                But under your poor measurement – that means they did not ‘work’.

                They worked, Bob.

                They did want they wanted to do without consequence.

                That’s a good conspiracy.

              • Below

          • What huge manpower?

            It took 5 years to remodel and paint the WTC – working at an average rate.

            It would take a team a week , under the cover of ‘maintenance’ to do the buildings.

            There was no time-limit for them to do this, Bob. It was on their schedule – long in advance.

            • Again until someone comes up with a plausible theory about how a layer of paint manages to bring down a building I will keep my skeptic hat firmly on.

              • And my endeavor is not trying to remove that hat.

                Indeed, my endeavor is for you to use that hat a lot more often then you do – against all things in your world all around you.

  4. wow…..

  5. http://motls.blogspot.com/2010/01/rise-of-populist-pseudoscience.html#more

    Not a hijack – but Birdman wanted a site that I read daily –

    Lubos describes powerfully the challenge “i” face daily – how to explain the universe to those that do not know or what to know the language that God speaks – mathematics.

    • I prefer to learn from you BF. I tried to read the site and found myself thinking about what to add to the grocery list.

      • HaHa! I too suffer at times with a wandering mind when trying to take in some of this information; nice to know I’m not alone.

  6. Hey G-Man!

    Great article, even if I HOPE you are wrong. With the absolutely brazen actions of the government lately, one has to wonder.

    Jesse Ventura has a show on about all this “Conspiracy Theory With Jesse Ventura”, the one I caught in the past week or two on Tru (146 DirectV)was about the Bilderberg Group which fits into all this. I suspect they may be rerunning a series from last year from another channel, the next show will be 1-27 & 1-28 if you want to search DirectV site for details.

    Now….I have to wonder that once exposed, how much of a conspiracy is there? There are books, movies, articles, and shows all over the place about this. With so many people becoming aware of all this, seems a bit hard to keep secret enough to pull it off.

    BTW, hope you and all my other pals here have been well 🙂

  7. Good Morning!

    Hope everyone has some fun trying to get all this stuff figured out. I had alot of fun reasearching this, there’s so much out there (171,000,000 hits on ASK.com) about this New World Order. It’s kinda scary to thinks about this even being remotely true. I thought it would be interesting to look at this closer and come to a concensus as to it’s truthfulness.

    I will use a scale: 1——–5——-10 1 being completely untrue, 5 being one the fence and 10 being we are in a world of trouble. I began my journey rating it at a 3, after all I’ve read, I’m at a 5 this morning.

    With all the stuff out there, it was hard to pick what to include and what to hold for the discussion, it’s long enough as it is! But here is one more resource to look at when you get time. It’s claimed to be a timeline on NWO:

    http://www.threeworldwars.com/nwo-timeline1.htm

    I’ve always looked at conspiracy theories as entertainment, I hope when this discussion is finished, I still feel the same way. I will read along from work, and may ask one of my friends to copy and paste a post or two for me till I get home from work.

    Peace and Live Free Forever!

    G!

  8. A Puritan Descendant says:

    My home is wrapped in foil insulation. Am I safe?

    • A Puritan Descendant says:

      And which cat is Reginald???

      • The one in the back is Reginald.

        The one in the front is named Horace.

      • A Puritan Descendant says:

        I see at least four options >

        Tiger Cat is Reginald and the B/W cat is scared.

        Tiger Cat is Reginald and the B/W cat is a paranoid conspiracy type.

        B/W Cat is Reginald and is dangerously insane.

        B/W Cat is Reginald and the Tiger Cat is a paranoid conspiracy type.

        • You left out that the Tiger cat is a split personality and is both Reginald and scared of Reginald.

          • Canine Weapon says:

            It is also possible that neither is Reginald and they are both afraid for their lives since Reginald is actually their human owner* and has taken a new job working for FEMA.

            *Yes, I know, nobody actually owns a cat. Cats merely live in the same house and allow you the pleasure of feeding them and their occasional company**.

            **Only when it suits their purposes***.

            ***Their purposes are frequently evil and/or mysterious****.

            ****They may, in fact, be plotting global domination. I would not put this past them. I have my eye on Feline Weapon. I think she is plotting something…

            • Feline Weapon is male. And there is no conspiracy there. HE has openly admitted that he is planning world domination. Just this morning he informed me that I would soon be providing food on HIS schedule, not mine.

              I now fear for my own safety.

              • Canine Weapon says:

                Want me to eat him? I’ll do it?

                ::wags tail::

                Adding, he’s a boy? I thought all cats were girls feline / female. Are you sure?

                My bitch of a mother (hehe) never told me where babies come from.

              • USW….I thought you knew it was well known that cats rule…they just let you think they don’t.

                Had a great cat named Hamlet…survived three coyote attacks on the ranch, one very terrified stallion attack, and one attack by a German Shepherd mixed breed. By survived, I mean opened a can of whoop ass and won…..lost to a rattlesnake bite in the eye. Really cool feline but he let us know with no uncertain terms that he ruled the roost.

            • A Puritan Descendant says:

              As a cat owner, I can see where either cat could be Reginald and the owner is in danger!

              • A Puritan Descendant says:

                my wife sent me this e-mail >

                “Here’s an interesting tidbit – 4 women at work say the tiger striped is Reginald and 4 men say the black and white is Reginald. None of the women picked the black and white and none of the men picked the tiger striped. Is that a sign of how men and women think different?”

  9. v. Holland says:

    Which list would you prefer to be on?-Think I’d prefer to be on the red list myself-All I know is if the Rush Limbaughs and Hannities of this world start disappearing around the same time-I’m heading for the hills.

  10. The part I don’t get is what’s the point of a NWO. Fine you have everyone either dead or enslaved. Then what? Just so you can be king of the hill? Doesn’t make sense. And anyway..who died and made you boss?

    • v. Holland says:

      Of course it makes sense-it’s evil but it does make sense-it’s called population control and power-under the guise of world peace, think about eugenics, people have talked about that for years-get rid of the useless people, take care of the scarce resources, etc. and of course they need some of the controlled masses to do all the work.

      • I say give all of them their own country- the Builderbergs, Al Queda, Socialists in general. Let them duke it out amongst themselves. Preferably in the next earthquake zone. But then I live on the prarie.

  11. v. Holland says:

    Okay, on a more serious note-I have heard these types of theories my whole life-the FEMA Camps are new and obviously real-Also the push for a one world government is obvious-So would someone please explain why all these Executive orders are necessary in theory. They are scary because they point out the fact that we really aren’t free.

    • v. Holland says:

      “EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051

      specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.”

      Especially this one-doesn’t it sound way to vague-I would say the situation we are in now-fits this description.

      • 1962: Executive Order 11051 was revoked by Executive Order 12148

        Remember 1962 – the Cold War, Cuban Missle Crisis?? Ok – I don’t remember it either – I wasn’t born yet. But those were scary times, and the government was planning for the worst-case-scenarios…

        • v. Holland says:

          1962: Executive Order 11051 was revoked by Executive Order 12148: Specifies the duties and responsibilities of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put ALL executive orders into effect in times deemed to be of increased international tension, economic crisis, and/or financial crisis

          Executive Order 12148
          From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
          Jump to: navigation, search

          Executive Order 12148 was an executive order enacted by President Jimmy Carter on July 20, 1979 to transfer and reassign duties to the newly formed agency, known as the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), created by Executive Order 12127. The order combined several federal agencies tasked with emergency preparedness and civil defense spread across the executive departments into a unified entity that was established as an independent agency, free of Cabinet interference, with authority as the lead federal agency in a presidentially-declared disaster.

          The agency’s place within the governmental structure was changed on March 1, 2003, when FEMA became part of the Department of Homeland Security’s Emergency Preparedness and Response Directorate.

          Okay, I tried to read the actual Order and it is full of instate this and remove this-simply don’t have time to do a good search but I will say this-in the reading I did -I did not see where the first order was actually changed just the organization that had the power to enforce it. I did take note of the words “free of Cabinet interference” which I never like to see. And the point isn’t whether or not the reasons for having all these Orders where based on good intentions the point is -does the President have too much power to take away our freedoms.

    • Executive Orders are unconstitutional. It is a usurpation of the powers of Congress

      • BF

        Executive orders are not uncostitutional in and of themselves.

        The powers assumed in some of them do however cross the line.

        E.O.’s are simply the mechanism by which the Executive Directs his employees, the agencies.

        Unless you are proposing the Executive has no authority over the Departments. Is that the case?

        JAC

        • The Executive Orders, as published, are extensions of power, not the duty roster for the kitchen clean up crew.

          • BF:

            The ones listed in G’s article..YES..All appear to go beyond constitutional powers. Although SCOTUS might disagree.

            But there are many E.O.’s issued that are simply the President’s directive to implement a certain policy or to issue a decisision that will last, until the order is removed by a subsequent president.

            Issuing an Executive Order is not an unconstitutional act.

            That depends on what is in it.

  12. the creators of http://www.icanhascheezburger.com will probably be on the red list because they are NET leaders.

  13. Wow. Um.. G-man and friends…

    I do not mean to be rude or offensive, but wow.

    I think this captures it best:
    http://www.xkcd.com/258/

    There is so much brain power in this room and we’re wasting it on this. If, IF, those executive orders are real, they are being taken massively out of context. I will pick one at random and prove this later today when time permits. There are no death camps. It makes sense for FEMA to have plastic coffin liners – if there is a massive death toll to which they are responding, they would need them. There is a far more rational explanation to everything than that a secret cabal of massive proportions is plotting to round up and kill millions of Americans using mind control techniques which do not exist. Just because you can string things together into a narrative where you are the target who is fighting a heroic fight to defend all things good and just in this world doesn’t make it true, likely, or plausible.

    Occam’s Razor.

    This is not why I come to SUFA.

    • A Puritan Descendant says:

      Mathius, I agree, but can’t you cut them some slack? Even you believe in man made global warming destroying the planet…….. 😉

      • I believe that I don’t know if there is such a thing, but that the massive scientific consensus seems to be that there is probably some effect to our planet being done by human activity. Thus, I would generally opt to err on the side of caution.

        Slight difference, no?

        • A Puritan Descendant says:

          Even if you are correct, the cost/benefit ratio of taking action would be waay out of sync in my opinion. I will drop it for now and let the subject of today continue.

        • Mathius,

          Such “consensus” is probably the biggest myth in the AGW debate.

          There is no consensus, and never was.

          • BF,
            Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean there isn’t a consensus.

            • There isn’t a consensus, unless you’re talking about those that dispute human causation.

              35,000 of those against the 5,000 of your “consensus” of which only a small fraction actually supported the IPCC conclusions.

    • v. Holland says:

      Come on Mathius-lighten up-I think the whole point is to examine the Executive Orders and see if there is any truth to these theories-to examine the crazy and the possibilities. It just might be fun and it just might show that the government has overstepped. I pointed out one Order above that seems mighty vague to me

      • IF it exists, AND
        IF it says what the article claims, AND
        IF it is worded vaguely in the actual text, THEN

        There is a good reason for that. The whole point is to be prepared for emergencies. We can plan for certain types (earthquake, tornado, volcano, etc), but how do you plan for the ones you don’t see coming? Alien invasion? Meteor on a collision course? You can’t, so you word it vaguely so that they can take the appropriate course without needing to wait for a whole new charter.

        But I’ll take a look and report. You can decided.

        • Matt, would you quit with the alien invasion? You will call attention to it before we are ready.

        • v. Holland says:

          See, Conspiracy theories can lead to learning and with your sense of humor -you should have fun today-Talking about funny -Just heard that a thief stole jewelry from Paris Hilton-said she was innocent but showed up in court wearing a piece of the jewelry that was stolen. 🙂 Can we all say -stupid 🙂

        • v. Holland says:

          I will wait to see what you find out since you were generous enough to do the research but just a point-vague is dangerous-leaves the door open for a crazy to take all our freedoms away-if they can write 2000 page bills -vague isn’t necessary-just more words are necessary.

    • Obviously, you are completely unaware of Executive Order # BO 12345 which introduces the Raptor species in known areas to create unrest, hide in closets, hide under beds, invade dreams, and eat all conservatives and creative thinking liberals.

      Give him (Gman) a break….his conspiracy theory that he put on here is no more or less informative than all the 9-11 theories. It is interesting reading.

      ( I think there is an extra raptor lurking in your neck o’ th’ woods ). 🙂

      How is your head today, my friend? Steering wheel? Going to be nice for awhile longer down here. 50’s at night 70’s during the day….time for tornado season tho…. I am sure that the Global Warming people are wanting an excessive amount this year due to the jet stream, but we shall see. we did have one in east Texas a couple of days ago…gave a man a ride for about 100 yards and threw him through a window….but he is ok ( as ok as one can get from a tornado ride ). He said the experience was something that has ever happened to him before but remarked, “it was interesting”.

      Have a great day, sir.

      • I shall have to look up EO# BO12345..

        Rumor has it the whole west coast is in for an interesting week of weather.. they’re calling it the Pineapple Express (one storm after another). My father sent me an email:

        Currently, the strong El Nino is reaching its peak in the Eastern Pacific, and now finally appears to be exerting an influence on our weather. The strong jet has been apparent for quite some time out over the open water, but the persistent block had prevented it from reaching the coast. Now that the block has dissolved completely, a 200+ kt jet is barreling towards us. Multiple large and powerful storm systems are expected to slam into CA from the west and northwest over the coming two weeks, all riding this extremely powerful jet stream directly into the state. The jet will itself provide tremendous dynamic lift, in addition to directing numerous disturbances right at the state and supplying them with an ample oceanic moisture source. The jet will be at quite a low latitude over much of the Pacific, so these storms will be quite cold, at least initially. Very heavy rainfall and strong to potentially very strong winds will impact the lower elevations beginning late Sunday and continuing through at least the following Sunday. This will be the case for the entire state, from (and south of) the Mexican border all the way up to Oregon. Above 3000-4000 feet, precipitation will be all snow, and since temperatures will be unusually cold for a precipitation event of this magnitude, a truly prodigious amount of snowfall is likely to occur in the mountains, possibly measured in the tens of feet in the Sierra after it’s all said and done. But there’s a big and rather threatening caveat to that (discussed below). Individual storm events are going to be hard to time for at least few more days, since this jet is just about as powerful as they come (on this planet, anyway). Between this Sunday and the following Sunday, I expect categorical statewide rainfall totals in excess of 3-4 inches. That is likely to be a huge underestimate for most areas. Much of NorCal is likely to see 5-10 inches in the lowlands, with 10-20 inches in orographically-favored areas. Most of SoCal will see 3-6 inches at lower elevations, with perhaps triple that amount in favored areas.

        This is where things get even more interesting, though. The models are virtually unanimous in “reloading” the powerful jet stream and forming an additional persistent kink 2000-3000 miles to our southwest after next Sunday. This is a truly ominous pattern, because it implies the potential for a strong Pineapple-type connection to develop. Indeed, the 12z GFS now shows copious warm rains falling between days 12 and 16 across the entire state. Normally, such as scenario out beyond day seven would be dubious at best. Since the models are in such truly remarkable agreement, however, and because of the extremely high potential impact of such an event, it’s worth mentioning now. Since there will be a massive volume of freshly-fallen snow (even at relatively low elevations between 3000-5000 feet), even a moderately warm storm event would cause very serious flooding. This situation will have to monitored closely. Even if the tropical connection does not develop, expected rains in the coming 7-10 days will likely be sufficient to cause flooding in and of themselves (even in spite of dry antecedent conditions).

        In addition to very heavy precipitation, powerful winds may result from very steep pressure gradients associated with the large and deep low pressure centers expected to begin approaching the coast by early next week. Though it’s not clear at the moment just how powerful these winds may be, there is certainly the potential for a widespread damaging wind event at some point, and the high Sierra peaks are likely to see gusts in the 100-200 mph range (since the 200kt jet at 200-300 mb will essentially run directly into the mountains at some point). The details of this will have to be hashed out as the event(s) draw closer.

        In short, the next 2-3 weeks (at least) are likely to be more active across California than any other 2-3 week period in recent memory. The potential exists for a dangerous flood scenario to arise at some point during this interval, especially with the possibility of a heavy rain-on-snow event during late week 2. In some parts of Southern California, a whole season’s worth of rain could fall over the course of 5-10 days. This is likely to be a rather memorable event. Stay tuned.

        My head is fine (my skull is very thick), but my steering wheel is busted.. will need to get a new one this weekend.

        You have a great day, too.

        • Yep….we are supposed to catch some of what hit Sou Cal tonight and in the morning. We have lots of moist air coming off the coast and it always collides up here with the cold fronts. Makes for great storms and lightning pics tho….one can always dodge a “nater”. Our winds are supposed to pick up to about 40 today but that is usual this time of year.

          Keep yer powder dry and your shot close by..

          d13

        • SK Trynosky Sr says:

          Hugo Chavez has announced that the US has an earthquake machine which also can control the weather. they are trying it out in Haiti and in Cal. before they unleash it on the axis of evil. No shit, this is actually what Chavez is saying.

          Even though I am a right to life kind of guy, can’t we make and exception in Chavez’ case and send a Tomahawk his way?

          • Chavez is an ex-paratroop who fell on his too many times.

            He is insane – he always was.

            A long time ago he tried a military takeover of the government and it failed, of course.

            He went to jail.

            Now he is life long President because the poor voted him in.

            Amazing how a guy who tried to overthrow the government gets to be elected into the government?

            This government stuff is sure confusing.

            • Actually BF, I don’t know that it is the government that is confusing in as much as the people are confusing. However, it just seems to perpetuate the theory that it is class warfare. (Please do not misunderstand my statement..it was not a kudo for government).

              The thing that I do not understand is the “poor me” mentality. People will make excuses for themselves all the time and say, I did not get the education or I was born in the ghetto, or there is no way that I can get away or get out. And those that champion that cause will make excuses and say it is governments fault.

              I never have been of the type that gives up. Neither were you. We are exceptions but why are we exceptions? There is NOTHING preventing people from getting off their ass to work. Don’t accept the fact that you were born in the ghetto….get out and do something even if it means hitchhiking and eating worms until you get on your feet.

              So, Chavez goes to jail and gets out….goes to the poor who will not help themselves, and champions a cause by convincing them he is the messiah…gets elected…the first referendum of being president for life failed…he killed the opposition…the second referendum passes after he stacked the vote, illegally shut down the voting places, killed any business leader that opposed him and God and the people were watching. Unbelievable…

              But you are quite correct…the man is not a brick shy of a load…he has no bricks…..period.

    • Buck The Wala says:

      Yay for Occam’s Razor slicing again!

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      Echoing Mat – can be good fiction and a mind teaser – maybe the next Dan Brown novel.

      • I would read that.

      • Hi Ray…howzit going up there, my friend? Wood all in for the rest of the winter?

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          Hey D13 – two more cords dropped off – more cutting and splitting to do. Have a lot of Christmas cookies to work off!

          • Do you have a splitter other than your own two hands, a sledge, and a wedge?

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              @D13 – I use a plain old chain saw and hand splitter – am too cheap to buy a splitter with a motor – although the older I get the less I enjoy the caveman aspect of doing so.

          • A Puritan Descendant says:

            Careful Ray, A guy not far from where I live was splitting with a wedge, and a tiny tiny piece of metal went into his leg. It hit an artery, he got into his truck and raced for help. He crashed into a tree while bleeding to death. Freak accident but glad I don’t use a wedge.

            One other note. I bought 57 acres about 18 years ago. Just the firewood I use to heat my home will soon return my investment in the land. Hard to find land that cheap anymore.

            • Ray Hawkins says:

              Puritan – you’re up NE right? Was in Maine year before last – most beautiful country I have ever seen.

    • Mathius:

      We talk about politics and news every day. This is a nice change in subject. G-Man knows this is a conspiracy theory.

      • True. But when I’m not in the mood for politics, I go elsewhere. If I were in the mood for conspiracies, I would go to infowars, no?

        • I go to Radio America for conspiracy theories. I’m not familiar with info wars. I’ll have to check that site out.

    • Matt,

      Find the humor in his article. I read a book a few years ago (Robert Ludlow?)about a secret organization started by a Bill Gates type that was improving the world thru assassination. They would computer model a hit, determine who would fill the vacant position, and determine what was the best outcome. Example, N. Korea, would it not be better off if someone waxed the lead nutcase?

      Don’t think I will be doing any research on this one, as USW said, simple answers are usually correct. 8 billion people in the world, 300 million in the USA. China has its one child policy, that will reduce their population in the decades to come. India? Nothing in this points at how to kill billions, and do it quickly.

      Just for fun, how could they kill the select billions, and not kill the desired survivors? Was H1N1 their test run?
      Design a plague, unleash it on the world. Give those you select the correct vaccine, provide the rest of the world with a fake one. So the only workable conspiracy starts with the World Health Organization.

      Sorry G!, I would be at a 1 or 2 on any likelyhood scale.

      Different topic, as a liberal or progressive, do you look to Che for inspiration? Mao or Stallin? Tonight on Beck, you can learn more of the history of those who several in the White House turn to for guidance.

      Che’s crimes, “He ordered the execution of many people with no trial.” Che served as Castro’s chief executioner, presiding over the infamous La Cabana prison. D’Rivera says Che’s policy of killing innocents earned him the nickname—the Butcher of La Cabana.

      Mao’s social-political programs, such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, are blamed for causing severe famine and damage to the culture, society and economy of China. This is generally accepted in China as well as by the Chinese Communist Party. Mao’s policies and political purges from 1949 to 1975 are widely believed to have caused the deaths of between 50 to 70 million people

      Researchers before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union attempting to count the number of people killed under Stalin’s regime produced estimates ranging from 3 to 60 million.[75] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives also became available, containing official records of the execution of approximately 800,000 prisoners under Stalin for either political or criminal offenses, around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement – for a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.

    • Mathius and Buck

      Occam’s Razor is not a law of nature.

      In fact, in complex environments (which is pretty much about everything), it is almost always wrong.

      • Besides, once again the concept of the Razor is misapplied.

        Occam postulated that the shortest answer is the best. Not the most correct.

        The assumption is that give both are correct the shorter explanation will likely be better.

        Why? Those who take the time to understand well enough to boil down the explanation will give the most easily understood answer.

        It gets to the point without confusing the subject matter with excessive words.

        Of course I could have offered:

        Its not a law of any kind but a rationalization for not thinking.

    • Hi Mathius!

      I do find it strange that you fail to understand the reason for the article. It was meant to get a humorous debunking. I’m going to the bottom, add some more fun stuff. By the way, this falls under politics.

      PEACE!

      G!

  14. Interesting Post Gman.

    There is only one area that I can actually post to on this but will read everything over the weekend.

    G man posts: In addition to being killed in ground conflicts on foreign soil, US military forces will likely be reduced in the next few years through disease induced attrition (i.e. from mandatory Anthrax Vaccinations required of all US military personnel). These vaccinations will, in all probability, eventually produce the symptoms of the so-called Gulf War Illness, which was acquired by a certain percentage of Gulf War soldiers who were given a “special” anthrax vaccine (intended by the Illuminati/CIA as a test run to ascertain how quickly (and fatally) the disease would progress with a substantial population of healthy young men and women).

    D13 remembers: Shades of Jacobs Ladder? I went to Kuwait, Bosnia, and Afghanistan. Never was I required to take an Anthrax vaccination and neither were the 724 I took to Kuwait, the 540 I took to Bosnia, and the 685 I took to Afghanistan. Having said that, means nothing except it was not required. In the Kuwait theater, outside of the normal sand fleas, flies, scorpions, jammed fingers, smashed fingernails etc., I had no Gulf war Syndrome casualties..at least to my knowledge today. Had one broken arm because he did not get his elbow out of the way of a recoiling tank gun but he was rewarded with a kill on a Soviet Made T-72. In Bosnia, the only casualties my men suffered outside the normal (smashed extremities from weapon bolts, tank hatches, etc.,was one man that caught amoebic dysentery from drinking very bad water with swimming critters in it. In Afghanistan, I did have men with shrapnel wounds from IED’s, 2 KIA, 4 serious WIA….(serious as defined as hospitalization in Germany) and I am unaware of any Gulf War Syndrome issues to this date. I hasten to add that that I am not AWARE of any. Not discounting it at all.

    In Vietnam, I heard all the stories of C rations being inundated with chemicals that gives you super human strength and no sleep necessary but never experienced any of that. My super human strength came from bullets zipping by at high speed…a very good motivator.

    Please do not get me wrong, I am not denying any of it…but have not seen it or experienced it. The only fact I do know is that we were not “required” to take anthrax vaccinations.

    However, interesting post and will read up more on it.

    • D13,

      Canot speak to all of it. But I can say that in my last trip to Kuwait (1998), we were required to get the Anthrax vaccine. I was already in country when the order came down. We were told we would take the vaccine or face UCMJ. We all took series. Never got the one year booster though.

      USW

      • Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…..were you Army? Of course, I went in 91/92. was not required then and certainly was not required in Bosnia.

        Was not required in 2002 for Afghanistan….Interesting…wonder what years it was “required”? Now you have gone and done it….making me think about this. Guess I better go out and make sure trip wires and radio freqs are still good. Claymores in place….I really love claymores….bouncing betty’s at the gate. SIGH…the things one must do.

      • Ok….got it…. Called a Colonel friend…Medical Doc…..said that it was enacted in 1998 and discontinued in 2000 and has been re-instituted in 2002 but only in High Risk areas now. Not mandatory throughout. So, I was in Kuwait in 91/92….Bosnia 96 and Afghanistan 2002…missed them all because commanders are responsible for implementation. I would have known about it. So, apparently, Afghanistan is not considered high risk.

    • Hey Colonel!

      Finally home to post some things. First, I do not advocate that this theory is true, and was hoping it could have been logically debunked completely, but I haven’t seen that as of yet. More on that later. Gulf War Syndrome, is directly related to the first asswhoopin Iraq took, LOL. It was also the first mandated use of the Anthrax vaccination, I can attest to the personnally.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome

      This is a fairly lame attempt to explain it, because they do not have the facts straight. Let me begin with one interseting fact, I was at King Abdul Aziz Air Base, Saudi, when the scuds were flying, we also had very good sensors, Czech I believe, They went off six times over the sapn of tha many missile launches, only stayed on for a minute at most, and everybody was in full chem gear, long before any explosion took place. I don’t believ DSS is caused by chem weapons. P-Tabs, yes we were ordered to take them for about 3 months, I, not liking pills, DIDN’T take them! Third, anthrax vaccinations were to be a series, I took the first of the series, never took another. 16 years later, about 4 years ago, I start suffering from skin irritations, that to this very day persist. The Doc’s have no clue what the problem is. Joint pain is getting worse each year, hips, feet, wrists and back, if it weren’t for beer, I would not get much sleep. The Doc’s have no clue here either, it’s not arthritis that causes this. I’ve had 2 broken vertbrae, 4 broken ribs since 2002. I still have no idea how the vertibrae cracked! One child born after DS, in 1993. Only family member on either side of family that has epilepsy!

      Just the facts , Sir! 🙂

      Is this the use of a bad vaccination and all just a coincidence, probably. Or was this a test on their own people? I would like to think the latter, but a friend who served beside me, and younger, has similar medical issues, his answers from the Docs, they have no clue.

      I’ll get to the rest of this mumbo-jumbo with some other folks. But thought you’d be interested in this, from someone who knows it firsthand!

      Peace and Live Free my Friend!

      G!

      • I was there also as a Battalion commander and never took the Anthrax nor did my men…we had some other things to take tho.

        I have those same symptoms from Agent Orange poisoning that I received in Vietnam. They did not occur until years later. Bone density loss, teeth problems, skin irritations etc…all a direct result of agent orange. Has not turned to cancer or diabetes yet. Joint aches, sleep problems at times, general aches….

        Now, I was not in rocket alley at all. I was part of the group that did the end run in the desert and cut off the highway and had to watch the Republican army and their tanks in travel lock drive right past us waving at us because we could not shoot and the cease fire let them go intact.

        The boys in the oil fire areas had to breathe all that crap and I bet that is where most of the ills come from….and, records show that the Gulf War syndrome actually was prevalent where the fires were and not in the desert where we were. Who the hell knows…..Wars bring out a lot of crap.

        • Good Morning, Sir!

          Strange how we can share similar ailments, long after our time in bad areas said to cause those problems. So similar in fact that I took pause. They claim that AO has caused your problems, they claim that a number of things could have caused mine. The one thing they don’t blame and infact refute, is the common denominator that we both share, vaccinations.

          Coincidence maybe?

          Peace!

          G!

    • SK Trynosky Sr says:

      Ah Colonel but let us never forget the Black syphilis in Nam that led to you being shipped forever (or at least until you died) to the Philippines. Hey, wait a minute, could that have been AIDS?

      • Laughing hysterically…..I heard the same rumors as well. The “Black Syph” and you got shunted to a remote island never to return home.

        I remember that everyone was scared to death. Did not seem to stop people from visiting the local establishments tho. 🙂

  15. G-Man:

    Excellent post. I believe that there are groups that would love to see one world government and elimination of all nation states.

    I have heard of FEMA camps but I think Glenn Beck debunked it. I don’t know if he looked back into the issue recently.

    Would like to see Mathius respond to the Executive orders that he will research. President Wilson took drastic steps during WWI to curb liberties and FDR did the same during WWII. I’m not surprised if executive orders exist for serious threats to government like wars or other serious emergencies.

    JAC lives in or near Montana. Maybe he can research the RR cars if they are still parked out in that state.

    • The story about the FEMA camps started for me here, about 8 or so years ago. Correctional Corporation of America (CCA) was proposing the building of a private prison nearby. The prison was said to be partially funded by FEMA, although there has been little written about it, it was a local news report. CCA has 64 private prisons, mostly in the South, with many in Texas. The one here was built in an area that I hunted rabbit as a youngster. At the same time, the Feds were building a SuperMax off route 616. The difference between the two locations is minimal, except for the train tracks behind the CCA facility. Spooky!

      Don’t woory, I won’t be spending anytime on them tracks investigating, 😆

      Pure coincidence…I think!

      G!

      • Displaced Okie says:

        Hey G,
        Just a little fyi for you on prison/jail locations. Many times prisons and other correctional facilities are built near each other for logistical reasons. For example fmc carswell is women’s prison in ft. Worth, it has a federal prison camp next to it(actually on the same property). This enables them to share costs and staff. I have also seen a cca prison next to a county jail. I have seen them walk the county prisoners of to the contract facility when their county time is over and their state time starts. So, their might be something there, but most likely it means nothing….I never thought that spending all that time in and around different jails and prisons could provide me with useful info.
        Anyway, have a great day, amigo.

        Stay safe and live Free,
        Displaved Okie

        • Thanks for the info!

          Did some minor research on this. The CCA facility is low security, housing those that are Federally controlled, and those that belong to the U.S. Marshals

          http://www.correctionscorp.com/facility/northeast-ohio-correctional-center/

          The Supermax is just that, for the nasty ones. They don’t publicise who’s there, I wouldn’t either LOL. Like I said, coincidence. I work at a hospital, two or so years ago, one from the CCA took over the guards, and escaped. Finally got caught near Columbus Ohio, I remember the video of the women jumping out her second story window too escape. Low security my Butt! I”ve seen the facility, lots of barbed wire, which would be normal.

          None issue for me at this point. Thanks for your input. Tough crowd today on this. My eyes are looking at everything, can’t hurt!

          G!

  16. Hi G-Man, Wow! You’ve spent a lot of time here and I appreciate your efforts. One thing I have noticed is that “Conspiracy Theorist” is another way of attempting to put someone down and stop the discussion. Because you question something, you are way out there? The need to quiet people that ask questions should be a flag in itself.

    Catching up with the links and with BF’s 8-part series; more later.

    Enjoy your Friday everyone!

  17. A Puritan Descendant says:

    paranoid types may want to be sure they wear a helmet after seeing this >

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/22/meteorite-crashes-virginia-doctors-office/?test=latestnews

    Actually thousands of meteors fall into our atmosphere daily. Lucky for us most are the size of a grain of sand and burn up in the ionosphere and never reach earth.

  18. Displaced Okie says:

    As an employee of the government I just have to tell you about the–
    <>

    …um,no comment.. 🙂

    Stay safe and live Free,
    Displaced Okie

    • Displaced Okie says:

      I would also like to add that I enjoy reading about “conspiracy theories” for the entertainment value, but I also do not dismiss them outright. I usually see them possible but not probable. I’d like to use a football analogy here. It’s like last week when my beloved Cowboys where being spanked the Vikings. It was 34-3 with time running out in the 4th quarter. Now, it was still possible for the Cowboys to win but highly improbable. Of course, the chances of a Cowboy victory would increase dramatically if the Vikings defense decided to quit paying attention. That’s how I see these theories–if we quit paying attention the probability of these things happening increases.Anyway just my thoughts…

      Stay safe and live Free,
      Displaced Okie

      • Disgusting, wasn’t it. I started timing the rush at the snap of the ball….not even Farve could throw in 2 seconds. Well, Mr. “pants on the ground” better have his “A” game this weekend. And, since we play the Vikings again next year….I am quite sure we will remember that last touchdown. Pay back is a “b****”.

    • D.O.

      I certainly have my doubts about much of this. The trains and guillotines were alittle much for me. The funny part of this section of the article, is that most everyone who reads it, will find them selves looking at the trains they see more closly, and then cussing me out when they realize their doing it. 😆 Mind Control, in it’s simplest form 🙂

      Hope you enjoyed the read!

      G!

  19. Ok – igloo’s done. I’ll dig the cave later. It’s kinda cold sitting out here in the igloo, but I have to toughen up, right!! No more of that whiny liberal crap!!

    Ray, Matt, Buck, and Bob – I hope you’re both ready to suck-it-up too!!

    I’m typing this from memory from what I read last night because I’m concerned if I stay connected to the wireless network too long, the predator drones will lock onto me…

    So, there’s a pretty long time line here. The executive orders start before WWI, then post-WWII, 1970’s, to present. Are you suggesting this plan has been in place and being worked on for over 100 years?

    And if memory severs me, I believe most of the executive orders listed have been revoked

    There are things in some of the past articles that haven’t come true – mass killing using the anthrax ‘vaccine’ after the Gulf War? So after the anthrax didn’t work out, they tried SARS, anthrax again after 9/11, and now the Swine Flu? I know, conspiracies like this aren’t perfect. It might take a few tries to get the plague just right…

    You need to tied up these loose ends when a story doesn’t work out as predicted…

    Oh, and speaking of 9/11 – how does that fit in here? An inside job to scare the American people so the tyranny could continue? Obviously Bush/Cheney are too stupid to include in this plan, so they were just pawns for the Illuminated group…

    FEMA Camps – I’ve read the posts about these before, but you’re suggesting that these FEMA Camps have existed and been fully staffed since the 1970’s?

    REX 84 – If I recall correctly from the briefings I received about this, this was instigated by President Reagan, LT Col Oliver North drew up the plans for it, a special red Christian cross or crucifix lapel pin were the secret id badges (I still have mine), and the main goal of the plan was to round up at least 21 million American Negroes in the event of massive rioting or disorder, not unlike the rounding up of the Jews in Nazi Germany in the 1930s.

    I guess Kristin’s concern about Christian’s being persecuted in the USA are unfounded – it’s the Christians planning to do the persecuting – again…

    Whoa – hold on for a minute – I feel the slides kicking in…ok, I’m better now…

    So, since Ronald Reagan and Oliver North – two conservative heroes – are part of the worst of this, I guess there will be no more Reagan Worshipping, right?

    What’s that humming sound – oh no the predator drone have locked on to my signal…..bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    • Todd, your humor is not appreciated. This is a serious subject.

      Consider, that for 100 years every President – Wilson through President Cheney, though Obama – has been on board with the plan to kill millions. Now think about that.

      Think.

      They couldn’t take chance that someone would get elected who had a conscience. (Unlikely in a politician, but possible). This would ruin all their planning. So they had to rig the elections.

      But wait, there’s more to that than the general elections. They also had to rig the primaries. Sounds easy, but…

      In the general, it’s usually close enough that they could change the outcome without people catching on. However, that’s not the case with the primaries. In primaries, people might notice if the result doesn’t match the polling since the spreads can be much bigger. So….

      They would have to rig the polling statistics, too. Which means that they have to control Rasmussen, Pew, WSJ, Times (LA & NY), and every single minor polling outlet. And because many of these are arms of media outlets, they would have to control the outlets themselves or someone might notice. But…

      But these are corporations with boards of directors. They couldn’t take the chance that the board would appoint a CEO who was not amenable to the cause. So the boards themselves must be comprised of co-conspirators as well. But…

      But the board of directors are also voted on and appointed by the stock holders. So the majority of stock holders would have to be in on it, or everything could fall apart.

      So, we are left with the inevitable conclusion: in order to protect ourselves, we must kill all the stake-holders of all media and polling outlets. We have to choice. It’s time to Stand Up for America.

  20. A One World Government and one-unit monetary system, under permanent non-elected hereditary oligarchists who self-select from among their numbers in the form of a feudal system as it was in the Middle Ages. In this One World entity, population will be limited by restrictions on the number of children per family, diseases, wars, famines, until 1 billion people who are useful to the ruling class, in areas which will be strictly and clearly defined, remain as the total world population.

    This doesn’t sound like Nirvana to all of you?? Come on – this sounds great!!

    You’re just pissed cause you’re on the wrong list!! 😉

    • Sounds great to me.

      Where do I sign up?

      I bet I’m on the yellow list 🙂

      Imagine there’s no Heaven
      It’s easy if you try
      No hell below us
      Above us only sky
      Imagine all the people
      Living for today

      Imagine there’s no countries
      It isn’t hard to do
      Nothing to kill or die for
      And no religion too
      Imagine all the people
      Living life in peace

      You may say that I’m a dreamer
      But I’m not the only one
      I hope someday you’ll join us
      And the world will be as one

      Imagine no possessions
      I wonder if you can
      No need for greed or hunger
      A brotherhood of man
      Imagine all the people
      Sharing all the world

      You may say that I’m a dreamer
      But I’m not the only one
      I hope someday you’ll join us
      And the world will live as one

      • WOW…Matt….got some good stuff in today?

        Utopia….I can imagine it but, alas, I must wake up. But it would be fun imagining it.

        • Don’t forget that extra verse in the live studio recording:

          FEMA has to punish
          Disidents and scamps
          Image your dear leader
          Putting them in camps
          Woohoo- o- o- oo-

          • v. Holland says:

            • Interesting, and all are within the last 100 years. You’d think people would remember….

              • v. Holland says:

                I’m not advocating buying into all these theories but I certainly feel that ignoring all of them is wrong too-but to totally dismiss the danger that this kind of power can engender is denying history-recent history.

              • Agreed. what’s the saying? The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

                My boyfriend teases me about being a chicken little. I hate it when he does that, but I don’t let him know. I just laugh and agree with him, but it kind of pisses me off. I hope he’s at least paying attention and just pushing my bottons for sport.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                The theory that is laid out in the article does sound like a sci-fi novel but I don’t think that it should be completely ignored either. There’s a reason these kinds of theories still abound, there are just enough facts to make them plausible. To completely ignore them and marginalize the people who believe them is dangerous.

                I wasn’t going to weigh in on this after the beating that I took the other day but if I don’t stand up for myself, no one else should stand up for me either.

              • v. Holland says:

                I think the main thing here is not to discuss if all these stories are true or false but rather or not our government has the power where they could be true.

              • Kristian Stout says:

                Not our government alone, no.

    • Oligarchy – a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

      Eureka I have finally determined how we have been governed for the past 12 months.

      Here is proof.
      We have been ruled by 535 elitist that did not listen to the people.
      Put there well being ahead of everyone else.
      Worked few hours but got paid a pot load of money.
      Had a lot of all expense paid vacations.
      Had way better healthcare than us.
      Have a killer retirement program.
      Have free meals, great gym and all kinds of people at their beck and call.

      All this time I thought we were a Republic.

  21. Good morning. Posting for comments. Hope all are having a good Friday.

  22. Off topic but when death comes it must be announced.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aM1aUsIz4gvk&refer=us

  23. Does anyone have any thoughts they’d care to share on this?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/education/20teacher.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

    This would fall under the category of “are Christians being discriminated against?”

    A telling section:

    “Mr. Freshwater’s pastor, Don Matolyak, posited that the criticism of Mr. Freshwater was part of a larger trend toward bigotry against Christians.

    “If he had a Koran on his desk, he’d be fine and no one would say a word to him,” Mr. Matolyak said. “If he had ‘Origin of Species’ on his desk, they would celebrate that.”

    I would compare that to this part:

    “Science is wrong,” Mr. Freshwater was reported as saying, “because the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, and so anyone who is gay chooses to be gay and is therefore a sinner.”

    Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

    • Ahhhhhh…Matt, my intrepid friend…..are you ready?

      If the school is a private Christian based school…no problem with the Bible being a prerequisite. In a public school, one of two things should happen. (1)Do not teach religion of any sort and do not teach any theory that dispels religion, or (2) teach both in factual context. I prefer the first choice.

      To say Science is wrong, is, of course, ludicrous. To justify it by quoting the Bible or the Koran or any religious writing is, of course, ludicrous.

      If the man actually “burned” (which I doubt) a cross on the arm of anybody, he should be charged and tried. If I were a parent and that happened to my child, this man would have a cross cut into his back with a Randall.

      So, teach it factually or not at all and that includes Darwin or any other evolutionary theory. Since I was not around during creation and I have a real hard time thinking that I am descendant of a monkey (although I have been told that I acted like one when young), I will make neither claim.

      That said, I will agree with one thing. I do believe that ““If he had a Koran on his desk, he’d be fine and no one would say a word to him,”… “If he had ‘Origin of Species’ on his desk, they would celebrate that.”….is a relatively true statement. I do not think it would be a problem at all…if that were the case.

    • If he did the things that some say he did, he was wrong. It would appear from the article that he has as many if not more supporters than accusers. One cannot make a judgment about religious persecution by just reading this one article; you/me don’t have all the facts.

      • correct-o-mundo, my victorious football friend…that is why I did not take sides. I did forget to answer Matt’s question tho…

        No, this does not fall under religious persecution.

  24. Judy Sabatini says:

    Hey All

    Sorry, but this has nothing to do with the topic, but I had to share these. They made me laugh so hard, I had tears coming down my face. I will get to the topic at hand later.

    Hope you’re all doing well today.

    Judy

    Subjec Husband banned from Target this is a riot

    Husband Banned from Target – a great story:

    After I retired, my wife insisted that I accompany her on her trips to Target. Unfortunately, like most men, I found shopping boring and preferred to get in and get out. Equally unfortunate, my wife is like most women – she loves to browse.

    Yesterday my dear wife received the following letter from our local Target.

    Dear Mrs. Samsel,

    Over the past six months, your husband has caused quite a commotion in our store. We cannot tolerate this behavior and have been forced to ban both of you from the store. Our complaints against your husband, Mr. Samsel, are listed below and are documented by our video surveillance cameras.

    1. June 15: Took 24 boxes of condoms and randomly put them in other people’s carts when they weren’t looking.

    2. July 2: Set all the alarm clocks in House wares to go off at 5-minute intervals.

    3. July 7: He made a trail of tomato juice on the floor leading to the women’s restroom.

    4. July 19: Walked up to an employee and told her in an official voice,’Code 3 in House wares. Get on it right away’. This caused the employee to leave her assigned station and receive a reprimand from her Supervisor that in turn resulted with a union grievance, causing management to lose time and costing the company money.

    5. August 4: Went to the Service Desk and tried to put a bag of M&Ms on layaway.

    6. August 14: Moved a ‘CAUTION – WET FLOOR’ sign to a carpeted area.

    7. August 15: Set up a tent in the camping department and told the children shoppers he would invite them in if they would bring pillows and blankets from the bedding department to which twenty children obliged.

    8. August 23: When a clerk asked if they could help him he began crying and screamed, ‘Why can’t you people just leave me alone?’ EMTs were called.

    9. September 4: Looked right into the security camera and used it as a mirror while he picked his nose.

    10. September 10: While handling guns in the hunting department, he asked the clerk where the antidepressants were.

    11. October 3: Darted around the store suspiciously while loudly humming the ‘Mission Impossible’ theme.

    12. October 6: In the auto department, he practiced his ‘Madonna look’ by using different sizes of funnels.

    13. October 18: Hid in a clothing rack and when people browsed through, yelled ‘PICK ME! PICK ME!’

    14. October 21: When an announcement came over the loud speaker, he assumed a fetal position and screamed ‘OH NO! IT’S THOSE VOICES AGAIN!’

    And last, but not least:

    15. October 23: Went into a fitting room, shut the door, waited awhile, and then yelled very loudly, ‘Hey! There’s no toilet paper in here!’ One of the clerks passed out.

    • Cool…have to try these.

    • Odd.. my wife never told me she received that letter. It seems strange that she wouldn’t yell at me for getting her banned from Target.

      Shame they missed some of my best stuff though..

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Maybe she didn’t want to embarrass you or make you feel bad.

        And just what is some of your best stuff, I’m afraid to ask?

        Hope you’re doing good today too Matt, and those raptors haven’t caught up with you yet.

        • 1. Well, there was the time I inflated a pool and filled it from the drinking fountain.

          2. Glued several dollars worth of quarters to the ground and watched as they tried to pick them up.

          3. But more fun was the time around Halloween. They were selling a costume radiation suit. So I went to housewares, bought tongs, got a glow-stick, and changed into the suit. Then I ran around the store hold the glowing “radioactive rod” out in front of me with the tongs.

          4. Reported several goth kids people for shoplifting. They were taken to the back to be strip searched.

          5. Simultaneously purchased a single large cucumber and a bottle of lube.

          6. Simultaneously purchased a set of wire hangers and a birth control test.

          7. Paid for a $199.99 item in pennies. Counted it out slowly. Was stopped when I tried to double-check.

          8. Attempted to buy items with Icelandic Kroners. Acted like I couldn’t speak English when they spoke to me.

          Four of these, I have actually, honestly done. Care to guess which?

          • Judy Sabatini says:

            Those are as good as the ones I posted. I’, going to guess 2, 3, 5, and 7. Don’t know why, but it sounds like something you’d do.

            • The correct answers are:

              4, 5, 6, and 7.

              I intended to make someone do #8 on his bachelor party, but he was too much of a wuss.

              #7 took like 40 minutes, but it was soooooooo worth it.

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                Well, they’re all pretty good. At least I got a couple right though.

              • Pretty good……but you have to go to a bowling lanes and call on your cell phone…..have them ask for Bill or William Mehoff….and when they come back and say he does not answer, then ask them to page his brother Jack. Now THAT is a riot and they will do it without thinking. Takes about twice and then you hear them say s*** and hang up.

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                That’s funny D13. I take it you’ve done that yourself, then.

              • MOI ?????? A respected Colonel in the Army doing something like that????

      • Yes, I would have thought they would have caught you taking one shoe out of each box and changing them all up not to mention taking your straight pin and poking small holes in the potato chip bags and moving the thermometers in the meat section to 60.

  25. Posting for comments.

  26. The Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club is an annual, unofficial, invitation-only conference of around 130 guests, most of whom are persons of influence in the fields of politics, banking, business, the military, and media. Each conference is held under intense security and secrecy

    Quote:”To say we were striving for a one-world government is exaggerated, but not wholly unfair. Those of us in Bilderberg felt we couldn’t go on forever fighting one another for nothing and killing people and rendering millions homeless. So we felt that a single community throughout the world would be a good thing”

  27. Mathius

    Conspiracies Theories are true, right? One of the greatest one is right under your nose.

    <b.Planning of the Federal Reserve System

    At the end of November 1910, Senator Nelson W. Aldrich and Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Department A.P. Andrews, along with many of the country’s leading financiers, who together represented about one-fourth of the world’s wealth[citation needed], arrived at the Jekyll Island Club to discuss monetary policy and the banking system, an event which some say was the impetus for the creation of the Federal Reserve.

    Forbes magazine founder Bertie Charles Forbes wrote several years later:

    Picture a party of the nation’s greatest bankers stealing out of New York on a private railroad car under cover of darkness, stealthily riding hundred of miles South, embarking on a mysterious launch, sneaking onto an island deserted by all but a few servants, living there a full week under such rigid secrecy that the names of not one of them was once mentioned, lest the servants learn the identity and disclose to the world this strangest, most secret expedition in the history of American finance.

    I am not romancing; I am giving to the world, for the first time, the real story of how the famous Aldrich currency report, the foundation of our new currency system, was written…

    The utmost secrecy was enjoined upon all. The public must not glean a hint of what was to be done.

    Senator Aldrich notified each one to go quietly into a private car of which the railroad had received orders to draw up on an unfrequented platform. Off the party set.

    New York’s ubiquitous reporters had been foiled… Nelson (Aldrich) had confided to Henry, Frank, Paul and Piatt that he was to keep them locked up at Jekyll Island, out of the rest of the world, until they had evolved and compiled a scientific currency system for the United States, the real birth of the present Federal Reserve System, the plan done on Jekyll Island in the conference with Paul, Frank and Henry… Warburg is the link that binds the Aldrich system and the present system together. He more than any one man has made the system possible as a working reality

  28. Judy Sabatini says:

    Okay now, on the more serious side of things here. How do we know that things like this aren’t really going to happen? Or if they already did. Sounds a lot like WWII to me and what they did.

    I have also thought a lot about the Kennedy assassination too. They said it was really only one shooter, but how do ” THEY ” really know? And who was really behind it? I always felt that LBJ had something to do with it. WHY? Because I think he wanted to be the president and he didn’t like the way Kennedy was running the country. How do we really know, that he didn’t put Oswald up to it. How do we know that they didn’t have some secret meeting somewhere? We. don’t really, know do we?

    For what I understand, that those records are suppose to be sealed for 80 after Kennedy’s death, to make sure that anybody who knew anything was either dead or so old and feeble, that they can’t remember. And what about the other theory that he’s not really dead, and that he’s in some secret place living out the rest of his life, because he has major brain damage? These are just some of the things that I have seen on some conspiracy shows, and have read about and heard about.

    Another one is, Area 51. ” THEY ” say there really wasn’t a UFO or they ” THEY ” didn’t have an alien and did an autopsy on it, and that all those glowing lights in the sky were just Russian space ships or weather balloon satellites. Seems like there are a lot of theories on that too. If ” THEY ” really didn’t have anything to hide, then why all the secrecy?

    And how about the landing on the moon? I heard too, that, that really didn’t happen, and that it was staged out in the Mohave Desert somewhere. If all these are just theories, then why so many different ones and why so many different stories of what really happened? Is there really a cover up with all these? If so, why? What are ” THEY ” really hiding ” THEY ” don’t want anybody to really know? What is it that the government is trying very hard to keep secret and that ” THEY ” don’t want us to know about?

    Those are just a few of the theories I have an interest in and if anybody can come up with the answers, I’d love to hear them. Or their own thoughts about these conspiracy theories.

    • Moon landings:

      They did occur. We can see the LEM’s on the surface.

      http://www.space.com/news/090717-lro-apollo11-images.html

    • Re: JFK

      E. Howard Hunt gave the whole assassination information to his son when Hunt was dying.

      A quick on his life:
      http://www.nndb.com/people/418/000027337/

      • The Last Confessions of E. Howard Hunt

        He was the ultimate keeper of secrets, lurking in the shadows of American history. He toppled banana republics, planned the Bay of Pigs invasion and led the Watergate break-in. Now he would reveal what he’d always kept hidden: who killed JFK

        http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13893143/the_last_confessions_of_e_howard_hunt/print

        • Judy Sabatini says:

          WOW Flag, that was interesting. So I’m guessing then by that, That LBJ did have something to do with, not to mention, E. Howard Hunt. But, there still has to be more to it than that I would think. I mean, that’s just one person’s story, there has to be others that were involved that knew exactly what happened. That’s what I still think anyway. Don’t ask me why, it’s just a feeling.

          There has to be somebody else out there that knows for sure. But, that’s if they’re still alive.

          • Hunt was a super-spook.

            If he says it, it’s a fact.

            • Judy Sabatini says:

              You know after reading all that earlier today what you posted, still makes me question that someone else was still involved.

              I really didn’t put 2 and 2 together with the spook thing, but does that mean like a super spy or what?

              Oh,I don’t doubt for a minute about what happened, I was just questioning about others being involved in that. And I knew that somehow Johnson had something to do with it. Call it a gut feeling. I appreciate very much you putting up that link. Only wish I had a printer so I could print it out.

              Thanks again Flag.

            • BF

              Unless of course he was mentally messed up due to meds from his other problems.

              I’ve seen it three times up close and personal.

              Not sayting that is true just there is a possibility.

              Don’t think, personally that LBJ was the leader if there was one. More likley someone would try to take him out. He had dirt on everybody and he blackmailed the crap out of who ever he needed to use.

              Interesting connection though with CIA agent whose wife was boinking JFK. Perhaps it was all just a jealous husband who manipulated others.

              We’ve got the makins of a new mystery novel.

              Best to you and yours
              JAC

        • Very interesting.

  29. Why Conspiracy Theories have legitimacy! Television and now the internet, the two best sources to invetigate them, and it’s popular entertainment. I also saved a post of an article that Kathy posted awhile back, because when the government wants to ban something, they usually have an agenda:

    Cass Sunstein

    In a lengthy academic paper, President Obama’s regulatory czar, Cass Sunstein, argued the U.S. government should ban “conspiracy theorizing.”

    Among the beliefs Sunstein would ban is advocating that the theory of global warming is a deliberate fraud.

    Sunstein also recommended the government send agents to infiltrate “extremists who supply conspiracy theories” to disrupt the efforts of the “extremists” to propagate their theories.

    In a 2008 Harvard law paper, “Conspiracy Theories,” Sunstein and co-author Adrian Vermeule, a Harvard law professor, ask, “What can government do about conspiracy theories?”

    “We can readily imagine a series of possible responses. (1) Government might ban conspiracy theorizing. (2) Government might impose some kind of tax, financial or otherwise, on those who disseminate such theories.”

    Now, if these conspiracies are meaningless and completely false, why would a person in the current administration want them banned? OH, maybe some of the are really true, like the AGW is a fraud conspiracy!

    Peace!

    G!

  30. I dug really deep, just to see how far this would go.

    Albert Pike and Three World Wars
    Continued from Part 1.

    Albert Pike received a vision, which he described in a letter that he wrote to Mazzini, dated August 15, 1871. This letter graphically outlined plans for three world wars that were seen as necessary to bring about the One World Order, and we can marvel at how accurately it has predicted events that have already taken place.

    Pike’s Letter to Mazzini
    It is a commonly believed fallacy that for a short time, the Pike letter to Mazzini was on display in the British Museum Library in London, and it was copied by William Guy Carr, former Intelligence Officer in the Royal Canadian Navy. The British Library has confirmed in writing to me that such a document has never been in their possession. Furthermore, in Carr’s book, Satan, Prince of this World, Carr includes the following footnote:

    “The Keeper of Manuscripts recently informed the author that this letter is NOT catalogued in the British Museum Library. It seems strange that a man of Cardinal Rodriguez’s knowledge should have said that it WAS in 1925”.

    It appears that Carr learned about this letter from Cardinal Caro y Rodriguez of Santiago, Chile, who wrote The Mystery of Freemasonry Unveiled.

    To date, no conclusive proof exists to show that this letter was ever written. Nevertheless, the letter is widely quoted and the topic of much discussion.

    Following are apparently extracts of the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.

    “The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the “agentur” (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions.” 2

    Students of history will recognize that the political alliances of England on one side and Germany on the other, forged between 1871 and 1898 by Otto von Bismarck, co-conspirator of Albert Pike, were instrumental in bringing about the First World War.

    “The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm.” 3

    After this Second World War, Communism was made strong enough to begin taking over weaker governments. In 1945, at the Potsdam Conference between Truman, Churchill, and Stalin, a large portion of Europe was simply handed over to Russia, and on the other side of the world, the aftermath of the war with Japan helped to sweep the tide of Communism into China.

    (Readers who argue that the terms Nazism and Zionism were not known in 1871 should remember that the Illuminati invented both these movements. In addition, Communism as an ideology, and as a coined phrase, originates in France during the Revolution. In 1785, Restif coined the phrase four years before revolution broke out. Restif and Babeuf, in turn, were influenced by Rousseau – as was the most famous conspirator of them all, Adam Weishaupt.)

    “The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.” 4

    Since the terrorist attacks of Sept 11, 2001, world events, and in particular in the Middle East, show a growing unrest and instability between Modern Zionism and the Arabic World. This is completely in line with the call for a Third World War to be fought between the two, and their allies on both sides. This Third World War is still to come, and recent events show us that it is not far off.

    http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

    No, I’m not crazy 😆 I was hoping that all the smart people here could disprove this CT. Other than some funnies and simply not attacking it worries me. Five plus years ago, the “AGW is a fraud” was a conspiracy theory, look at it now!

    Help me kill this one, because it can’t happen here…can it?

    G!

  31. Rail cars – found this comment on one of the links:

    i used to work for toyota motor manufacturing of north america. these are not prisoner cars. they are train cars used for transporting new vehicles from the factories to where ever they are going. the so called shackles are not shackles at all. they are chains with “eye rings” on them used to secure the vehicles. besides if the government is doing what you are accusing them of they wouldn’t be stupid enough to leave them out where anyone can see them. they have kept ufo’s under cover for years, you think they can’t keep a few train cars secret. let’s get real.

    FEMA Camps – they don’t exist. I can’t prove that, because it can’t be proven. Please prove that they do exist…

    Executive Orders – They are government planning for disasters, both natural and man-made. Some sound ominous if read in the worst-possible-light. Many were created during scary times – WWI, WWII, Cold War, Cuban Missile Crisis. Many have been revoked and/or rewritten. Do you really think they could carry out these orders if there wasn’t a true disaster? Should the government not do any disaster planning? If a hurricane hits, you’re on your own…?

    How about the fact that REX 84, Garden Plot, and Cable Splicer were all initiated by the Reagan Administration? I want to hear how you’re all gonna walk that one back…

    • Hi Todd!

      Please understand I’m not advocating that this is true, and I’m not saying it isn’t. But, this subject has been gaining steam, mainly, I think, because of the mistrust of the government. Imaginations run wild, and once something like a conspiracy starts, it just goes on and on. The boxcars are the extreme parts of this whole thing. Then again, the earth was on a destruction course not long ago due to some movie a decade ago that has been proven totally false. AGW is a fraud, was once a conspiracy theory, now it’s becoming reality and quickly.

      I’m sure you saw this, but these camps (for good purposes) may not be a falsehood. H.R. 645 PDF
      If this does not link, it’s on the first link in the article, about third way down.

      I’m havin fun! That was the intent.

      G!

      • Why would it matter how initiated it?

        How about the fact that REX 84, Garden Plot, and Cable Splicer were all initiated by the Reagan Administration?

        Isn’t the fact that our government was practicing the roundup of 14 million citizens, back in the 80’s, alittle concerning?

        • G-Man,

          I think that is why Bob and Mathius can’t believe this stuff – their memories are too short.

          Government works on time scales of generations and decades. Carter’s Head of Foreign Relations wrote a book on it – where they were making ‘moves’ and ‘decisions’ that wouldn’t bear fruit for 50 years.

          Most people can’t remember yesterday – let alone understand the chain of events and decisions that were made 5 decades ago coming to bear today.

          • BF

            I’ve been looking deep into the history of this, and it’s amazing. It’s far from new, and downright spooky. When I started reading about Luciferians, it brought chills down my spine.

            The girls here got a bad time today, they are interested, but have been quelled.

            While I do remain suspicious, the new info has been added to the list of “prove it wrong now” It just keeps getting deeper.

            I wish more would have gotten deeper into this, and to refute it. Sadly, the evidence supporting it is growing, and the refuting evidence seems to be “No Way”. No way, don’t get with me, prove to me, with real evidence, what is correct or incorrect. My whole point of this article. Let’s prove it or kill it! I have too much respect for the intelligence of people here, I thought I’d get more on the BS side.

            I guess the Pirate and the Warrior are working side by side this evening!

            Peace Brother!

            G!

    • Todd:

      I saw the same comment by the guy who worked for toyota. I have seen hundreds of car carriers in my life and none look like those white cars. Here is a link to Wiki that includes pictures of what standard car carriers look like. Note, no windows, just slats along the length.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorack

      And before you try going off on me, this does not prove what these white cars are or are not. I have NEVER seen one of these other cars. But will defninitley keep my eyes open.

      If I find one on a siding I will damn sure stop and check it out. Then we’ll know. Unless I come up missing……….heh, heh, heh.

      • Don’t stick your head inside – the guillotine will get ya!!

      • JAC:

        When I was a kid, the RR cars were not covered and the automobiles were exposed. Today they are covered. I wonder why?

        • Birdman

          To protect the valuable paint jobs which are not nearly as durable as the old days. Especially from any hail damage

          I’m guessing also some UV protection as the railroads leave freigth sitting for long periods.

          They are covered but you can easily see into the cars.

          • JAC:

            I seem to recall some kids that used to go down to the RR tracks to pick up iron ore pellets for their sling shots. There was a large steel mill in town. Now, some of those kids would shoot their iron ore pellets using their sling shots at the uncovered automobile RR cars as they went by. The RR had to cover the cars to prevent such damage. To this day, I blame those darn kids who did that and give them credit for covered automobile RR cars.

  32. Letting my imagination run for awhile. How would I make this conspiracy actually work?

    I would need a disaster, but not a national one just yet. So, I’ll start with the economic collapse of California (which I would make sure domino’s). Civil unrest takes hold and Marshal Law is put in effect. All roads leading in and out of Cali are closed, under the ruse of keeping out more criminals or letting some escape. The unrest is going to cause a complete shutdown of all communications, phone, internet and cell phones. The troops will shut down the medi under Marshal Law and no word gets in or out. The cleanup begins within Cali, and noone can find out what is really going on right away. Within 10 days, the innercities are contained and citizens are moved to locations within Cali, for their final stop. Nobody knows whats going on, Cali airspace is a no fly zone, and there is little understanding by the people, as they are told they are being moved to a safe location, until the violence is stopped, they go willingly, they trust the government is there to help!

    I’ll worry about the farm country later, most of them can’t get water for crops anyway, fixed that awhile back. Cali in now isolated, whoever is left, better know how to survive without the comforts they once had. Last step, lights out, turn off the natural gas, all the while the states that surround Cali are now having the same economic problems, and one by one, meet the same fate, until the country is now in my full control.

    Those who were not extinguished are on their own, they lack food and supplies, no power, no organization. ENDGAME!

    I should sell this to Hollywood 😆

    G!

    • A Puritan Descendant says:

      Amateur Radio ops with battery back up would warn the rest of us. Maybe you need a magnetic pulse to knock out all electronics first.

      • All conventional communications (radio wave) would be blocked via satelite countermeasures. Am Radio, CB’s and any other form of radio wave traffic can be blocked with the push of a button. I remeber the class on this back in my younger days. It was designed in the event of a major Nuke war.

        If this was a movie, I’d be looking forward to the second part, “The Remnant Rivival” LOL

        Hope your day is good! 🙂

        G!

  33. Todd,

    FEMA camps do exist.

    For some time FEMA has been renovating and constructing new detention camps throughout the country. In January 2006 Haliburton subsidiary KBR announced that it had been awarded an “indefinite delivery / indefinite quantity contract to construct detention facilities for the Department of Homeland Security worth a maximum of $385 million over 5 years.

    Halliburton Public Relations “KBR Awarded U.S. Department of Homeland Security Contingency Support Project for Emergency Support Services.” 24 January 2006

    kbr.com/news/2006/govnews_060124.aspx>.

    Scott, Peter Dale. “Homeland Security Contracts for Vast New Detention Camps.” New America Media. 8 February 2006

    news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77>.

    • Flag,

      I just tried the KBR link. The page has been removed. when was the last itme you saw the page?

      • I have that one as well, just below.

      • Here’s a trick for everyone – and to understand Nothing is deleted and will last forever on the Internet so keep YOUR personal stuff off of it!!

        Google caches every web page in the world forever. They add about 10 Terabytes of disk every week.

        If you’ve lost an article, simply “Google” the headline.

        At the end of the short description of the “hit”, you will find Cached

        So instead of clicking the real link, click the cached link and it will be the copy from the Google server, not the original.

        Here is the cached page.

        http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:m3Q9LBWxLpMJ:www.kbr.com/news/2006/govnews_060124.aspx+KBR+Awarded+U.S.+Dep&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

        • A Puritan Descendant says:

          I ‘think’ but am not certain, what is in the Cache is what google found the last or most recent time they crawled a web page. I have a web site and that is the way it seems to work. So if I delete some info it will disappear from the search results once the web page has been crawled by google again. I am not fully clear on this and it may work much different for other web sites than my own.

          • A Puritan Descendant says:

            So hard to speak clearly. I try again.

            “So I delete some info and it will disappear from the ‘cache’ once the page has been crawled again.”

    • Added:

      The Halliburton subsidiary KBR (formerly Brown and Root) announced on Jan. 24 that it had been awarded a $385 million contingency contract by the Department of Homeland Security to build detention camps. Two weeks later, on Feb. 6, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announced that the Fiscal Year 2007 federal budget would allocate over $400 million to add 6,700 additional detention beds (an increase of 32 percent over 2006). This $400 million allocation is more than a four-fold increase over the FY 2006 budget, which provided only $90 million for the same purpose.

      http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=9c2d6a5e75201d7e3936ddc65cdd56a9

      • Hey Todd! Down here.

        FEMA Camps – they don’t exist. I can’t prove that, because it can’t be proven. Please prove that they do exist…

        Any questions?

      • Both the contract and the budget allocation are in partial fulfillment of an ambitious 10-year Homeland Security strategic plan, code-named ENDGAME, authorized in 2003. According to a 49-page Homeland Security document on the plan, ENDGAME expands “a mission first articulated in the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.” Its goal is the capability to “remove all removable aliens,” including “illegal economic migrants, aliens who have committed criminal acts, asylum-seekers (required to be retained by law) or potential terrorists.”

        Significantly, both the KBR contract and the ENDGAME plan are open-ended. The contract calls for a response to “an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs” in the event of other emergencies, such as “a natural disaster.” “New programs” is of course a term with no precise limitation. So, in the current administration, is ENDGAME’s goal of removing “potential terrorists.”

        Amazingly, our government now wants to give these very same illegal aliens amnesty. Go figure!

  34. V.Holland

    per your request

  35. G!

    An entertaining article. Random thoughts.

    I still am not worried about FEMA camps.

    I do have concerns about the push for one world currency.

    The UN wants a total ban on private firearms, the wording includes
    personal self defense is not legal, only defense of the state.

    There seems to be an influential group in the USA that wants to abolish the Canadian and Mexican borders, has a much greater impact than “free trade”.

    Bird Flu & H1N1 and the worldwide scare they entailed. There was talk of making it mandatory to take the vaccine. If healthcare had passed, I think they would have had the authority. Like that matters, the President can give such orders, you can then sue, but you have already had a needle stuck in your arm. There are not many ways to quickly kill off 30-60% of the world population.

    Asteroid strike.

    World War, including WMD’s.

    Pandemic.

    Had an odd day, sorry I did not get to post more.

    Judy, love the funny. Nite all.

  36. Still working on all the links throughout. I noticed in catching up on all the comments, is the stark difference in response to the mere possibility that conspiracy theories exist. The theories we are discussing here all involve some portion of the government being involved. The “lefts” among us, who have such faith in their government spending their money, taking over their healthcare, and generally dictacting their livies, also seem unable to even explore the possibility that there might be some truth to any of these theories.

    Interesting. So is it fair to conclude that when someone’s trust in government is so complete that you won’t even put your own intelligence and logic up against some of these theories?

    I don’t know about a lot of these, but I do recognize that a lot of what I once believed isn’t really the way it is and I am willing to look at these conspiracy theories and analyze each one, rather than just ridicule any that do.

    • Well put Kathy!

      I spent far too much of my life with my head in the sand, and can’t do it no longer.

      I wrote this for a reason, prove it or kill it! I figured with all the super smart people here, that could happen. I was wrong! I did not try to prove anything, I just put out some of the more extreme notions about the subject.

      I believe, with Flags help, that we proved there are FEMA camps. Noone has been able to disprove that yet.

      I also believe , that NWO is an issue that needs consideration, and Flag helped there as well.

      This group of people here pulled my head out of the sand, I’m just returning the favor! 😆

      I am sorry that some got treated poorly earlier, I didn’t foresee that happening, and I couldn’t post at work, URGGHH!

      Hope you are well!

      G!

    • Kathy,
      What does your analyst of this tell you? What’s your conclusion?

      • Of a specific theory or my observation on how everyone responded to this post?

        • You said you look at these conspiracy theories and analyze each one. What does your analysis tell you about the conspiracy theory that G-Man presented here? True or False? Parts True or False?

          Or on G-Man’s scale: 1——–5——-10 1 being completely untrue, 5 being on the fence and 10 being we are in a world of trouble, where do you fall?

          • Actually I’ve found that when I first hear of one, I’m initially skeptical and then I go searching. Because conspiracies often take years to develop and play out, so too, it often takes a long time to follow and read up and develop my own beliefs/disbeliefs.

            In reading G-Man’s initial posting, some of the things mentioned are new to me and I’m initially skeptical. I would say the 9/11 conspiracy is one that I initially thought downright nuts, because to even imagine that anyone even remotely connected to our government could be involved made me sick to my stomach. I’ve since read many sites and listened to people such as that posted by BF above. I’m currently at the stage where everything doesn’t line up and I’m wondering why. I may never believe it or as more information comes out, I may believe it 5, 10, 20 years from now.

            But as I mentioned above, I have found (I consider it growing!) that all that I once believed, isn’t necessarily the way it actually is, so I am open-minded to the possibilities. I also respect that others paths to proving/disproving conspiracies is different than mine.

    • Kathy:

      You made an excellent point. Statists seem to riducle and dismiss all conspiracy theories and make fun of anyone that wants to look into them further. It’s like the Saul Alinsky tactic but applied to the conspiracy. Pick your target, freeze it, and then ridicule them. This gets people to back off further investigation because they don’t want to be labeled as crazy. Every conspiracy theory that I have heard of involve the government in some way. I have not finished watching Flag’s 8 part series (watched 4 so far) but it shows 9/11 gaining more traction as more qualified people look into it. All the speaker wants is the investigation to be re-opened.

      • Birdman,
        What’s so what does your analysis of this tell you? Which parts are true and which parts are false?

        On G-Man’s scale: 1——–5——-10 1 being completely untrue, 5 being on the fence and 10 being we are in a world of trouble, where do you fall?

  37. Let me add to the AGW bullshit that is now a full fledged conspiracy! AGW is a joke! AGW Fraud theorists are winners. One more peice of real evidence:

    http://www.kusi.com/home/78477082.html?video=pop&t=a

    Get your head our of the sand, AGW supporters, your beliefs are are fiction of the progressive movements imagination.

    ARRGHH!

  38. G-Man,
    Here’s the problem. You admit it’s a conspiracy theory, but you present it like all of the details are true. And even though some of the details may be true, they are not presented in context. After all the hysterics of the past year, many people are going to believe this on face value (with all those links, it must be true!) and many of those people are going to assume that Obama and the Democrats are responsible for all of this.

    Then the first comment from Black Flag:

    Black Flag said
    January 22, 2010 at 3:03 am
    Well, I know I’m on the list that says:
    “Get him or shoot him or make him leave this planet!”
    G-Man, here’s the damn thing.
    Probably 90% of what you posted can be confirmed.
    The “System” will focus on the 10% that cannot.
    They will claim, thus, 100% of what you posted is false.

    So now the stage is set. The resident expert has spoken, lending more credibility to this. Anyone who tries to debunk any of this will have to deal with Black Flag.

    While no one seems to think this is 100% true, most of the conservative’s comment that it’s a compelling argument and it is possible…

    The Group Think has set in.

    Then v.Holland posts this link:

    v. Holland said
    January 22, 2010 at 1:02 pm
    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.4.GIF

    The logic here being that since others have done it in the 20th century, it’s obvious that it’s Obama’s goal?

    And my favorite from Bama dad:

    Bama dad said
    January 22, 2010 at 2:43 pm
    Oligarchy – a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

    Eureka I have finally determined how we have been governed for the past 12 months.

    Here is proof.
    We have been ruled by 535 elitist that did not listen to the people.
    Put there well being ahead of everyone else.
    Worked few hours but got paid a pot load of money.
    Had a lot of all expense paid vacations.
    Had way better healthcare than us.
    Have a killer retirement program.
    Have free meals, great gym and all kinds of people at their beck and call.

    All this time I thought we were a Republic.

    Jon Stewart covered this last Spring – you are confusing losing an election with tyranny.

    And the last 12 months? Yes, because Obama was elected, we’re suddenly an Oligarchy. Did you forget about the Bush/Cheney administration and warrantless wire taps, torture, etc??? See below for more info on Bush/Cheney!!

    How is this proof of anything?

    G-Man said
    January 22, 2010 at 7:30 pm
    Hey Todd! Down here.

    FEMA Camps – they don’t exist. I can’t prove that, because it can’t be proven. Please prove that they do exist…

    Any questions?

    From your original article:

    There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners.

    The majority of the camps can house a population of 20,000 prisoners. Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people.

    Yes, I have questions. They built 6700 beds in 2007. That was a 32% increase over 2006. So they built 5100 beds in 2006.

    How does that add up to 800 prison camps that can house 20,000 prisoners each?

    And 2 million in Alaska?

    The article you link too provides more interesting information. Did you read past the prison bed numbers? It implicates Reagan, North, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush in the planning to take control of the USA.

    And yet these are the people you defend, while attacking Obama and the Democrats. Maybe you need to re-evaluate your positions?

    • v. Holland says:

      Hold up there Todd-did you actually read any of my post today-my point is that government should not become too powerful-that too much power in the government hands can lead to horrible things happening-I do believe that liberal policies will lead us to the government having to much power-BUT I never accused President Obama of having a goal of being a mass murderer and I resent the hell out of you twisting my comments.

      • V.Holland,
        I did read your comments, like these:

        Of course it makes sense-it’s evil but it does make sense-it’s called population control and power-under the guise of world peace, think about eugenics, people have talked about that for years-get rid of the useless people, take care of the scarce resources, etc. and of course they need some of the controlled masses to do all the work.

        Okay, on a more serious note-I have heard these types of theories my whole life- the FEMA Camps are new and obviously real-Also the push for a one world government is obvious -So would someone please explain why all these Executive orders are necessary in theory. They are scary because they point out the fact that we really aren’t free.

        I will wait to see what you find out since you were generous enough to do the research but just a point-vague is dangerous- leaves the door open for a crazy to take all our freedoms away-if they can write 2000 page bills -vague isn’t necessary-just more words are necessary.

        I’m not advocating buying into all these theories but I certainly feel that ignoring all of them is wrong too-but to totally dismiss the danger that this kind of power can engender is denying history-recent history.

        What did I twist?

        • v. Holland says:

          Excuse me -where in any of that am I talking about President Obama-I am talking about in general-when you give government to much power-it has and it can lead to really bad things-I used words like crazies-no particular time line-no particular person-JUst the danger that a all powerful government holds-a possibility that liberals seem to dismiss out of hand -the danger-you know power kills-too much power. I would not and have not called Obama Evil-I am looking at historical evidence that the stronger the government is -is more in danger the people are, you and others seem to dismiss that danger out of hand-but I don’t think that means you are evil just dismissive of history.

          • leaves the door open for a crazy to take all our freedoms away-if they can write 2000 page bills

            Who’s the crazy you are referring to that wrote the 2000 page bill?

            • v. Holland says:

              Give me a break Todd-did Obama write all these executive orders-did he write the order this post relates too-I was simply making a point that the government has no problem writing a lot of words and vagueness was dangerous. Lets get something straight here Todd-accusing someone of having a goal of being a mass murderer is sick-unless one had proof that they we’re committing such acts-I am not a sick person and I really can’t help it if you want to hear something that wasn’t there.

              • So what was the point of the link to the list of mass murders?

              • v. Holland says:

                The point was the total dismissal of even the possibility that the horrible things that have happened in other countries could happen here-the total dismissal that all the powers that the government has to take away our freedoms was silly-it was my way of saying power can kill-it has happened in the past and it’s possible now.

              • But you’re comparing tyrant dictators to the US government. Not a valid comparison.

              • v. Holland says:

                That , my friend is your opinion, and no offense but I believe it is a naive opinion-what makes you think that our government can’t be changed-It has changed consistantly through history

              • Well, as everyone here likes to say, several hundred million armed citizens wouldn’t let it happen…

              • v. Holland says:

                I suspect that some people would try to stop it from happening but guess what the government has a tendency to change slowly and once it gets powerful enough, there may be no stopping it, and that will be on the shoulders of all the people who don’t stand for liberty and freedom. Do you really believe that people in the countries that have experienced the evil of a dictatorship or just a pretend democracy have wanted to be killed and controlled.

              • So what are you doing to stop these events from happening?

              • I think it would be more worth while to focus on correcting the real problems facing this country – which would make this conspiracy theory useless…

              • v. Holland says:

                I’d say the question is more what are you doing to make them possible.

              • Todd,

                From whose point of view?

                There are quiet a few other nations and peoples who think the US government ranks among the worse in history.

              • v. Holland says:

                Personally, I think the real problems facing this country is the government becoming to strong.

              • See below

    • Perfect!

      I cannot control what others post. You are right! I presented something, with the Title “A trip to OZ”, knowing full weel that what I presented was unproven. I feel that you and the many that post here can weed through the BS and disprove it!

      Yes, Black Flag has his opinion about this, he’s entitled, as you are and Mathius is and USW is. That was not my direction or point. I brought up documented evidence, and only wanted folks to substantiate it, or disprove it. There’s a vast amount of written stuff on this ( I know, I read alot of it). I do not, say it is true, and I do not say it is not, I made that clear from the beginning, hence the title!

      I continue to add to the subject, only to get those who oppose it to refute it. I expected better as far as refuting, I got heads in the sand and not wanting to go there. That’s fine! I have zero reputable evidence that this is NOT true! I, and Flag, have provided evidence that supports it. Give us something besides, ,, nothing, that holds up.

      My goal, prove it or kill it. All I’ve seen is proof of it, and I REALLY want someone to kill it! Can you do that?

      G!

    • Todd,

      What, in your mind, would you consider proof? For me, I don’t consider a wikipedia entry as proof of anything. I guess my question is for everyone. What do you consider to be evidence? A report by the MSM? A teleprompter reading by Obama? Actually touring a detention camp? An internet page of the legislation? What? Maybe deciding what we consider to be a trustworthy source, will be a good starting point to figure out fact from fiction.

      • Cyndi,
        Proof is difficult. I would consider everything you listed to be sources of information. All sources must be evaluated for validity, context, and bias.

        For instance, all the executive orders listed in this article are from the Ford administration or earlier. Many have been revoked or modified since. Most are related to national defense or disaster preparedness. Viewed in the context of the Cold War, they may seem reasonable. Viewed in the context of the current political atmosphere and someone mis-using them to take control of the USA, they sound rather ominous.

        The links about the railroad cars are a joke…a friend told me he talked to his cousin who talked to someone who saw these on a siding in Montana…and I suppose JFK and Elvis were inside…and shackles and guillotines…

        I wonder if the also had a bridge for sale…

        I think it would be hard to agree on valid sources of information in today’s world.

        • I agree, Tood. Its hard to know what’s valid these days. Too many lies have been told, even by ‘trustworthy’ sources. Or should I say formerly trustworthy sources? The only thing I trust is my gut instinct.

    • Todd:

      You state: “The article you link too provides more interesting information. Did you read past the prison bed numbers? It implicates Reagan, North, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush in the planning to take control of the USA. And yet these are the people you defend, while attacking Obama and the Democrats. Maybe you need to re-evaluate your positions?”

      I don’t see where this site defends Republicans like Reagan, North, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Cheny and Bush. They are statists just like Democrats but grow government in different ways and grow government slower. SUFA is less than 1 1/2 years old. I think this site will attack either party when freedom and liberty is under attack.

      USW, please feel free to jump in.

      • Birdman,
        There have been many times when posts have referred to returning to the ideals of Reagan, etc. And yet Reagan increased the size of government and imposed on personal freedom and liberty. But most of you here don’t want to remember that.

        • Morning Todd!

          When Reagan was elected, I had three things on my young mind, women, whiskey and weed! 😆

          I will agree that Reagan did things that most of us would be against today. Having learned much about what he did during his time in office while researching for this article, has change my views quite a lot about him.

          Peace!

          G!

        • Todd:

          Reagan talked the talk but did not walk it. He had a democratic congress. Reagan spent money like crazy for the Cold War. I think I recall him saying something about a trillion dollar defense budget. He did not get it but he wanted to spend the USSR into bankruptcy.

          At that time I was an indoctrinated democrat holding statist beliefs. I was not a Reagan fan but I did not like Carter either. I am now a radical right wing liberal and believe that government is evil. Everything government does is evil, even though they may say it is for the people or greater good, etc. It took a long time for me to reach this conclusion. I think both parties are for big government and neither really reduces the size and scope of it. It just gets bigger and bigger. We now have more government jobs than private sector jobs and that cannot continue for very long.

      • You nailed it Birdman. I have no affiliation other than realizing that the Dems have all the power right now and therefore get the brunt of my skepticism and scrutiny. Republicans get it too when I think they are wrong.

        • USWep,

          Do you have any opinion on the discussion D13 and I had about all our wonderful ailments? 🙂

          G!

          • I absolutely saw it. After the liberation of Kuwait excursion (GW1), there were a lot of folks in my unit that had problems. One of the most prevalent that I recall was miscarriages. About 15 guys got their significant others pregnant immediately upon returning, and about 50% of those had miscarriages. I am speaking from memory here, as I don’t have access to any statistics to back it up.

            For myself, there are definitely bouts with sleeping issues. There are also the skin issues. For me, they manifest as extreme dry patches that are itchy as hell. But then again, I spent time in so many different places that I cannot nail it down to one place like Kuwait.

            As for the vaccines, I absolutely was forced to do the Anthrax vaccine in 98, as I mentioned to D13 yesterday. Prior to that never any Anthrax vaccines, but as I am sure anyone in the military who gets deployed a lot will tell you, The sheer number of vaccinations I was given were staggering. We had monthly deployment readiness days, which consisted of making sure everything was prepared for you to go and not come back. This included setting up powers of attorney if you didn’t have them and double checking your beneficiary status. But most important, they always included a series of vaccinations. I swear I was vaccinated for some things a million times. The worst was that whatever we were being given, we took it on faith that it was what they claimed it was. Now I wonder.

            Other than the skin and sleep issues, I can’t pinpoint a lot of other stuff. I will say that I rarely get sick (one flu in the last 20 years).

            I will weigh in more on what you guys noticed later when I have some time. Was there anything specific that you were interested in knowing? I am willing to share my experience, but not sure what you do or don’t want to know!

            USW

            • Once again there is another possible common denominator, as I haven’t had the flu since the fall of 1988, which was also the last time I took the flu vaccine.

              Not sure if anything can be done, but would like to here from some other vets who have these issues.

              I’m not going to push the cospiracy button on this, it may be that the shear amount of vaccinations could be the culprit, rather than some secret tests (LOL). I’m going to call a friend later and ask him, He wasn’t in any cobat areas, but did get all the vaccines.

              G!

            • And ya know the stupid thing about the Anthrax vaccine;

              (1) the studies submitted to the FDA showed it had only a minor ability in preventing Anthrax and no ability to stop it if you already had the disease.

              (2) the shot is extremely expensive to make.

              (3) however, the cheapest and most effective way to deal with Anthrax is…
              …penicillin.

            • There is a lot of dispute over the vaccination theory as practiced in today’s medicine.

              For me, I take no vaccines – they are, IMO, the cause of many of the disorders and dysfunction in kids.

              Ironically, MMR is given to babies – YET, Measles et al are mild childhood diseases – you want your kids to catch in naturally when they are young. Natural exposure protects for life. The shot only protects (in theory) for 10 years.

              When you get it as an adult it far worse and can be fatal.

              YET, getting the MMR reduces the likelihood of getting it as a child – but INCREASES the likelihood of getting it as an adult.

              An acquaintance took her healthy and bubbly new born – on doctors orders – for the shot. Three days later, the baby was dead.

  39. “Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people.”

    A facility to house 2 million at 10’x10′ per person would cover 7 square miles not include hallways (a requirment in Alaska since it would be deadly to live outdoors all year), roads, common areas (kitchens and such) guard facilities, etc. It is near Fairbanks. So go find in Google earth and show us pictures. 2 million is a city. Cities require massive amounts of food, water, sewer, heat and other facilities. We cannot house the homeless now. Why would we build a 2 million bed facility and leave it empty? Is every member of congress ignorant of this or are they all in on it?

    Railroad cars with guillotines and shackles. Only photos of the outside. Do the observers have x-ray vision? Were the cars open? If so why no photos of the chains or guillotines? Have you seen pictures of old dormatory cars for rail works? Could these be auto transports with chains for securing the vehicles? Why would one use a guillotine anyway? Why struggle with a prisoner to lock him in a guillotine when bullets, poison or gas is much easier and less messy.

    BF if thermate was used at WTC, would it not be present in other high rises for the same reason? It is easy to chip off some paint and get it analyzed. I am surprised with your vaunted intellect you have not done this already.

    Many of these reports are second and third hand. The few first hand reports are vague. Not what I would expect if there was substance.

    It takes a lot for me to believe in a conspiracy. How many times do we see Christ’s image (not that we know what it was) in random arrangements of rust, paint or other things? The same is true with these consiracy theories. A few random events organized in a fashion to tell a story. So let’s gather around the campfire. I’ll start (10 words or less): President X wanted to go to war….

    • T-Ray,
      It’s that new 100 story building in Fairbanks, so it only covers about 1/2 square mile – very easy to miss!!! 😉

    • T-Ray!

      😆 Giggling here! The railraod cars and such is the extreme of the “theory”. Question, will you be looking at trains more closely now? If you do, will you admit it?

      Can’t prove the boxcar stuff, I knew that. I can prove the FEMA stuff, Be it for good purposes or not, it’s there.

      I looked at the history of it, posted what I found. Nothing more. I’ll ask you the same as everyone else, prove it wrong or prove it right! All I did was provide whats out there. There’s 171,000,000 hits on ASK.com about the NEW World Order! From my research, I don’t find much to refute it. That is my goal, kill it!

      Peace!

      G!

      • G-Man,
        Disproving conspiracy theories is very difficult, because they try to connect many unrelated facts and draw conclusions that aren’t there.

        What have you proved about the FEMA Camps?

        How do 12,000 new prison beds in 2006 & 2007 equal the 18 million prison beds mentioned in your article?

        • Then it should be easy to disprove if the conclusions don’t match the evidence.

          But what do you do when it does, Todd? Do you just dismiss it out of hand?

          The real problem is not with the Theories – its with those that don’t believe in them out of hand.

          It is they that no matter how much information and data and plain old physics and chemistry – they dismiss it as “Conspiracy!”

          The problem is never with the Conspiracy Theorists – they are most people asking questions and seeking answers – and if they are wrong, they are harmless.

          The problem is with the deniers – because if they are wrong, they’ve just let a great and terrible evil get away with it.

          • And the conclusions here don’t match the “evidence”.

            • The evidence hasn’t reached conclusion, yet…maybe…damn these CT things. Get everyone worked up, and until it is proven, they stay worked up.

              I say the AGW Fraud CT, came true, what say you?

              • G-Man,
                You wouldn’t like my response so I’ll with hold it.

              • I can handle it. 😆

                I’m so tired of reading! I bet I’ve read five novels worth of BS this past week, You could not say anything the would bother me. Besides, I respect your opinion, and I’ve been awake for just over 22 hours, say what you will!

                G!

        • I can bring light to this. I work in a hospital that can, by law, only have 675 beds. 8 stories high, 1 mil sq ft. Imagine what it would take for a structure to hold 14,000 beds! How about ten structures at 1400 beds?

          I dealt with 10K Cubans in Panama at the end of 1994, 5 2K tent cities built in 3 days. I don’t underestimate the power of our military or our govt..

          I don’t!

          G!

          • But the article said 800 camps with 20,000 beds each?

            Where are they?

              • Sounds familiar…once again, the Bush and Reagon Administrations. You guys are fighting the wrong side…

                There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general’s signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft’s list. The Rex 84 Program was established on the reasoning that if a “mass exodus” of illegal aliens crossed the Mexican/US border, they would be quickly rounded up and detained in detention centers by FEMA. Rex 84 allowed many military bases to be closed down and to be turned into prisons.

              • It has nothing to do with politics. You misinterpret what I (we) are meaning.

              • No, I understand your distrust of government. You’ve made me question and review many things, but I don’t agree with your conclusion that everything government does is for evil purposes.

                I was just going thru old email – remember this comment from a few days ago?

                I would bet we would enjoy each others company.

                I agree, and this conversation would be so much more fun drinking beer around a campfire!!

              • Yes, I feel the same way today!, that campfire sounds good, even in the snow!

                Peace!

              • Todd,

                Everything John Wayne Gacy did wasn’t evil either.

                Just most of it.

                You cannot judge by one or two ‘good’ things to declare something “not evil”.

                I look at its premise – its core – its fundamental reason for its existence.

                Its core is evil – violence upon the non-violent.

                As I’ve said before, because you may be a benefactor of that violence and not the victim does not make government “good”.

                Your benefit does not make it so.

                The suffering of the victim makes it evil.

              • Black Flag,
                And your in-action does nothing to stop government.

              • Todd:

                You keep harping on who did this and that. Yet you say you understand everyone is talking about govt and not particular presidents. So why go back to who?

                By the way, your dismissal of all these executive orders because they are Cold War era is irrational. As some of the other Older Military and Govt folks here can probably attest, there was really no effective plan in response to nuclear attack except kiss your ass goodbye. When I was first exposed to any type of Federal planning for major disasters it was centered more around decentralized response, not rounding up people and putting them in camps.

                Alot more work is needed on all these “pieces of evidence” to determine if they are true and what there actual purpose is. A simple, rational investigation is needed. Not crying wolf and not dismissing out of hand as ludicrous. Neither response is rational.

              • Strange distribution of these “camps”. Very few in CA which has 10% of the US population and one of the biggest mass disaster risks in form of earth quakes.

              • T-Ray,
                That’s because they’ve painted the San Andreas Fault with thermite and are planning on blasting California out past Hawaii. No needs for camps – California will become one big prison island!!

              • Great, my property value will go up with ocean view.

              • Great, that means all those fruits, nuts, and flakes will be out my way. I came out here to get away from all that. Crap!

              • GMan

                I have checked out the FEMA camp map for areas I know.

                1. The supposed camp or potential camp on the Clearwater N.F. “near Moose Creek”. The map pin is miles to far to the north. Moose Creek is a remote, ie wilderness US Forest Service Ranger Station with an air strip that can handle DC 3 and smaller aircraft. No way is this a detention center. It would make a good hideaway for stashing high value prisoners for secret interrogation however. Except the USFS would have to be chased out of the area along with all the outfitters.

                2. Japanese internment camp near Jerome, Idaho. Have heard of NO activity to upgrade this or other old internment camps. And we have one right here in our town. The Japanese are major Agricultural players in the Treasure Valley. They would start screaming if these old camps were being resurected.

                3. Malstrom AFB Great Falls. Its a major SAC AFB and close to my secret hideout. They only think they control the launch codes. BF and I have two silos under our control. Bwahahaha

                4. East Yellowstone, supposedly patriots stopped by foreign troops. Who knows. There are no camps. And once again the map pin is way off. It is inside the backcountry of the park miles west of the east entrance.

                4. Old Japanese internment camp north of Cody Wy. Was through there last year. Did not see and no discussion from the locals about such a thing. That I heard.

                Now to add one to the list. The strange group that showed up in Hardin MT to run the prison, discussed here months ago, never really left. Their Rep disappeared but the group remained and has reportedly leased a very large Ranch. Their stated intent was to build a field training and gunnery training center. Ranch is around 10,000 acres in size. Once they backed out of the deal with the city over the prison, the State AG and others stopped investigating. Because there are no laws being violated.

                There are several independant folks in the State monitoring the situation.

                JAC

              • Thanks JAC.

                I always thought that alot of this was exagerated. Your input may help quell the secret camp/refurbishing internment camp theory.
                Is that 10K acre ranch fairly open or fenced in? I would think that a training range involving any firearms would be fenced. Thanks for your input 🙂

                G!

        • I could find a use for 537 of those beds. We need a few more here in CA too.

    • It MAY be present, but its a good idea. Don’t know where to look though.

      However, the point is that it was found in the WTC – the question was “how it got there” – and there are lots of ways as I pointed out.

      But the real point T-Ray is:

      It was there

      • Bottom Line says:

        I remember seeing on TV, a demonstration of a type of thermite in the form of tape/rope. I think it may have been that show “Future Weapons”.

        It(tape) was placed onto a concrete wall in an oval/hatch shape, then detonated.

        When the smoke cleared, there was an almost perfectly cut hole.

        Not paint….TAPE.

        • It’s easy to test for, Bob.

          Oh, forgot, they removed all the evidence! Darn, huh?

          But they still have some girders in a back room – no one has looked at them, including NIST. Wonder why?

          • Oh shucks they removed all the evidence (otherwise known as the cleanup) in the swift time of nine months, the people wanting evidence sure didnt have time to get it.

            • Bob,

              They wanted it – but were prevented from getting it.

              No agency from anywhere got access to the WTC site during cleanup.

              Every truck carrying the debris was tracked via GPS. One driver stopped for a quick bite and was fired.

              I repeat – NO ONE WAS ALLOWED ACCESS to the largest crime in American history.

              • Most of the steel was sold off to China and India, if the investigators wanted a piece I am sure they would have been able to get one.

              • Begs two questions then;

                (1) They were lying when then said they were prevented from getting to the site – following your conclusion

                or

                (2) why didn’t they ask for samples???

                I mean – a building fell down due to fire! Don’t they want to know why?? So to save other buildings falling down?

                But they don’t…. they didn’t even ask the question….

              • Two planes full of jet fuel slammed into the towers causing catastrophic, fatal damage.

                I am not a structural engineer but I would bet the conclusion of the findings would say that all buildings must be built with reinforced concrete, walls 10 metres thick, no windows and AA nests on the roof. The findings would have told us that slamming jets full of fuel into buildings is generally a bad idea for all involved.

              • Bob,

                The problems with your theory.

                The buildings did not fall down when the planes hit. There was no catastrophic collapse until nearly an hour later. Why?

                Knowing a few engineers myself – they all say unequivocally that the buildings are designed very well.

                The WTC was designed for multiple airline hits from a plane faster and bigger than the 767 – 4 engines instead of 2.

                And the building fell straight down – they did not topple. Of all of it, that is the most bizarre thing.

                And of course WTC7 was not hit by plane.

              • I very much doubt when they were designing the WTC they would understand the full effects of thefuel burning and then the subsequent fires. It didnt need to get hot enough to melt the steel, just enough to weaken it.

              • Bob,

                Show me your physics where a “black”
                smoke fire can generate the heat to cause steel to fail.

                If you can show that – evey steel building on earth is under threat

                But because no other building is under such threat – you insinuation is wholly in error, sir.

                Stand rebuked!!

        • Bob

          Must give credit when do. That is a good find regarding the thermite. I read some of the others and it seemed they were guilty of the same thing. Trying to dismiss a theory on the basis of just claiming it doesn’t make sense.

          JAC

  40. I looked at the patent (5,425,163) for the coffins (www.uspto.gov). There is no assignee so it is not the property of the government but the property of the inventors. It is for a low cost cremation casket that does not give off toxic or polluting substances during cremation. Such caskets would naturally need to be sealed for odor and sanitary reasons. It is plastic therefore can be mass produced cheaply by molding or other standard shaping processes. The polymer does not contain halogens (chlorine, etc.) just hydrogen and carbon so will just release CO2, CO and H2O on combustion. This is an environmentally acceptable means of disposal so should make the greenies happy. If the government is stockpiling these, I hope they paid less for them than they pay for toilet seats.

    • Slight correction, the patent was not assigned to anyone when it was filed. It could have been purchased by anyone after that. Three of my patents were sold for $1.25M, all I got was the consideration of $1, the consideration not t he $1.

    • True story!

      Had to buy a 12″ carpenters square when I was serving, I was quoted 57 Bucks. Went to local store and bought the same thing (Craftsman) for $8.

  41. GMan et al.

    Re: FEMA camps.

    All evidence points to THEY exist. Especially since Congress authorized locating them. So what’s missing?

    INTENT and PURPOSE

    I posted several times what I believe the authorization to be about. Pre located evacuation areas. Remember, my wife helped run one of this for RITA hurricane evacuation. D13 should be able to give some insight into this as he was involved in some of these types of operations.

    I am not sure how we could ever prove intent and purpose as you would need access to internal documents from several agencies.

    I will be looking for those rail cars in my travels and WILL check one out if I see it. But note this. The comments about remote wilderness sidings is a matter of perspective. For those of us who live in this country there are NO sidings in the wilderness and there are NO sidings that most of us in natural resource industries or who hunt don’t know about. That is why I was able to post about all the rolling stock being stored on these sidings and short tracks months ago.

    I was very amused and curiosity peeked by your Oz story. Well done I thought. I got the humor and the point from the outset.

    Peace and freedom my friend
    JAC

    • Thanks My Friend!

      I knew this wasn’t you cup of tea, so to speak. I must have accomlished something, if it got your curiousity on the move! I’ve been baffled by reading all this, it goes so deep, I could not have imagined. I will hold onto what I still have, although it can be found, till another day, or year, or never! I never expected this to go where it went when I started looking. I have two more articles, which I will just keep to myself.

      Thanks for posting and being kind!

      Peace and Live Free Forever My Friend!

      G!

      • Off to Bed! That’s long overdue! Been up since 3 am, yesterday, thanks to gunshots in the air. Can’t wait to move!

        G!

  42. V.Holland,

    I’d say the question is more what are you doing to make them possible.

    Nothing in my opinion, but I imagine you’d disagree. But you’re the one who sees this as a problem, so what are you doing to stop it?

    Personally, I think the real problems facing this country is the government becoming to strong.

    So again, what are you doing to stop it?

    Black Flag,

    From whose point of view?
    There are quiet a few other nations and peoples who think the US government ranks among the worse in history.

    The conversation is about domestic policy, so that’s the point of view I’m using.

    • Night T!

    • v. Holland says:

      Guess what Todd, You’re not going to change this around in an attempt to put me on the defensive-your the one who wants a big strong government-so please tell me-what difference does it make what I am doing if a bigger, stronger government is appropriate?

      • V.Holland,
        When have I ever said I want a big strong government?

        You said just a few minutes ago that the real problems facing this country is the government becoming to strong.

        So I asked what you’re doing to stop that?

        How is that simple question an attempt to put you on the defensive?

        • v. Holland says:

          “Do you really believe that people in the countries that have experienced the evil of a dictatorship or just a pretend democracy have wanted to be killed and controlled.”

          I asked you the above question and you evaded answering it by asking me what I am doing to stop the government from becoming too strong. Do you really want to force me to go back and pull your past post to show that you believe in liberal policies.

          • V.Holland,

            Do you really believe that people in the countries that have experienced the evil of a dictatorship or just a pretend democracy have wanted to be killed and controlled.

            Sorry, I thought this was a rhetorical question. No, I would think they didn’t want to be killed or controlled.

            If you want to pull my past posts to prove your point, that would be your choice.

            • v. Holland says:

              No, it is late, and I am getting tired 🙂 but you do admit that you are a liberal, right-so from my point of view that means you are for big government-you of course can disagree -but I of course will be forced to disagree- So, anyway, if these people did not want to be controlled and killed-how did the government or dictator have the power to do so, if not, because they were given the power by having a strong government, which comes with military strength and by taking away individual liberty?

              • V.Holland,
                I lean toward the liberal side, but I’m pretty much in the middle.

                If you agree with VDLG, then I suppose my definition of government would be BIG to you. But mostly I want effective government, and I want that government strong in the sense that it is effective and not weak.

                But I don’t want big strong government that infringes in my daily life.

              • v. Holland says:

                All I can say Todd is if you don’t want big strong government-you might better start leaning the other way.

    • Todd,

      So you believe that though there are a multitude of examples of other governments tyrannies at home and abroad, and that it is credible that the US government is acting in many ways the same way,

      …it is impossible for you to believe the US could fall as easily to tyranny as Germany?

      You forget that Germany was the center of European knowledge, science and culture – and look what happened.

      Why do you think the USA is immune?

      • Black Flag,
        No, I do not believe what you state.

        I don’t think the USA is immune. But this theory is not valid.

        It amazes me that you are so taken by these conspiracy theories. I think they fall into your labeling all government as evil, so you push them to make your point.

        • Todd,

          You are confused.

          I am not taken in at all by Conspiracy Theories.

          I present Conspiracy Fact.

          You are tripped by the facts, sir. You ask for them, you got them, you ignore them (ie: the Camps, Thermate residue, Free fall, Inconsistent Flight Recorder, etc.).

          The FACT that there are serious issues in the official 9/11 story is without dispute. But you are afraid to seek deeper because you are afraid of the implications.

          That makes you a Theorist because of that fear – you wish to create theories that abstain further investigation.

          All government is evil – by definition – it claims it can attack non-violent people. You do not dispute this – but remain utterly confused by it. I hold no grudge on you for that – you’re no different than 90% of the people.

      • v. Holland says:

        How you doing BF? Hope your doing okay and not missing your family too much. Think Todd had a good idea-it’s late-I’m tired-gonna go to bed.

  43. It’s been fun – time for bed!! Good night!

  44. Maybe it’s me but I’m beginning to think some of the lefties on this site are planted. There are a few who have been pouring on the heat strong. And it seems to be getting hotter. Rationalize, justify, twist words and meaning, just having to get the last word. Why so hot under the collar?
    Getting paid or just refuse to take the blinders off. And Buck wonders why I’m frustrated. Please.

    • Anita,

      It has been rough the last couple days, but I attribute it to the election results of Tuesday night. Stay the course!

      G!

    • Anita,
      Darn, you’ve figured us out! 😉 We have so much cash laying around (from stealing it thru evil taxes), we’re now paying people to stir up the heat on right-wing blogs!!

      The really funny thing is, from my perspective, the discussions here have been getting more and more right-wing, making it so very easy to pick apart…

      • Nice to see you think its funny, Todd. What I’m seeing is us living in the States. I’m not seeing anything United about it. Nor do I see any America. My America has hot dogs apple pie and Chevrolet. Do you see any apple pie? The hand, Todd. Talk to the hand. Respectfully.

        • Anita,
          I think you’re over-reacting…

          Hot dogs – they’ll be around forever!!
          Apple Pie – one on the counter – my wife baked it last night!!
          Chevrolet – only exists because Obama saved it!!

          Talk to the Hand?? So you’re not open to having discussions about these topics??

          • Absolutely open, Which is why I come here. But I don’t see Charlie & Ray being so combative.

            • Anita

              It is lack of Beta rays and vit D. Been a long, cold, gray winter in the central north.

              Me thinks, cabin fever is setting in with many. Tensions rise as the fever increases.

              Let it roll off the back and just keep pointing out the fallaceous arguments and circular logic. Stay on point, calm, cool and collected.

              Your doing just fine.
              Now go for a long walk with the family.
              JAC

            • So I’m being combative? Do I need to be more submissive and follow the herd? 😉 *

              Or do I need to be more Politically Correct so I don’t offend anyone? 😉 *

              * Just to be clear, the little “winky” things at the end of each line are suppose to convey that I’m joking around. I don’t want it to be mistaken for combative…again…

        • Hi Anita,

          I agree with you about there not being a ‘united’ anything. I can’t think of a SINGLE subject that ALL Americans can agree on. Not even murder, money, goegraphical borders of the US, or language. The country I was born into doesn’t exist anymore. We’ve been Balkenized. Its been done for a reason. Both of my parents are immigrants. They speak of the ‘melting pot’, while newer immigrants speak of the ‘mixed salad’. The thing about a mixed salad, is that you can easily remove the parts you don’t like. Not so much with a melting pot. Divide and Conquer baby……

          • Cyndi, G-Man, BF, and of course “the man” JAC,
            Figured I’d squeeze in right here.
            Been out all day and came in to see I disrupted AGAIN ! OOPS ! Figured I’d let you guys know that my blood pressure was no where near where it was last time I started spouting. Looks like you guys had fun without me. Thanks for having my back. And of course, as usual, I learned from all of your posts.

            JAC: Your take on things below is awesome!

            • Hi Anita! 🙂

              As I have said before, if you have patience, good things will come. I also said I’m very patient, I hope that can be seen now!

              Your blood pressure, hopefully, is much lower, and you are now in better spirits. Fear not, your back is always covered! 🙂

              G!

              • I got your back too G. Trouble is- you’re waaaay ahead of me. Excellant job as the host. You didn’t know you were getting into a two day gig (plus research) did you?

              • Heck, the way it started I was surprised to see get to day two. Tough subject, tough group of people, but, what I hoped for happened, that was many smart people here, desite the subject, used their logic to get the answers. I learned much more than I thought I would, and hopefully helped others to learn as well.

                G!

            • No problem, Sista! 🙂

    • Anita,

      Blinders are simply another word for “paradigm”

      People hold to paradigms because they have been successful in coping with the world. They offer rote strategies for the most part “break even” and the occasional win. Their real strength is in the avoidance of loss – paradigms rarely lose – because that is why the exist as a strategy! A “no loss – break even” game.

      So people are very very reluctant to leave a ‘no lose’ strategy – even if the new one is a ‘big win’ strategy. Humans are, by nature, risk adverse. If we weren’t – well, nature would have killed off the species a long time ago.

      However, because the paradigm is taught by rote – that is, told to you and not discovered by you – they often embed falsehoods, lies, deceit, contradictions – and these are used against you by those who are aware of these failings. Hence the root of all Conspiracy theories – there are those that operate outside of the paradigm with knowledge – but appear to stay within the paradigm because of that knowledge.

      So we see government spooks murdering people to protect or advance an agenda. They do so with the knowledge that the people – in a paradigm – will naturally not suspect the government.

      To overthrow such evil requires the people to leave the paradigm – to step out of it and evaluate it on their own, not just by the rote taught by “authority”.

      But as I said that is like lifting a mountain.

      • Dangit BF you’re making me think again. Its the weekend remember? I get to pretend on the weekend. Remember my speech about govt being the security blanket people need? You just tore that excuse up! You know your stuff.

        • I think of government more as a wet blanket than a security blanket.
          😉

        • Anita,

          My apologies – however, to quote ‘The Batman’

          Death does not rest, nor take a day off, nor a holiday –

          We are always in battle with death and evil.

          If we forget, but it never rests, it destroys us.

          It hits us constantly to exhaustion – and it never exhausts.

          So, how do we win?

          By never giving up.

          It has no strategy, tactic or effort that can overcome those that never, ever, give up.

          My cousin, much-removed, Winston Churchill, a mass murderer, his last public speech ended with this:

          “Never, never, never, never surrender”

          Those where his last public words.

          He told us how to repulse him, the body of evil.

          He straddled – he never wanted to be evil – but in his moral confusion, he manifested it.

          He knew its power – and its weakness – and he told me – he told us – how to defeat it.

          I hope the volume was loud enough.

          Never surrender

          • BF,

            Heard you compare yourself to Kent one day. You wished your exterior matched your interior. Yeah well, I don’t know what your exterior is but your interior is wonderful. Question: I have only one year on you. How the hell did you jump so far ahead of me on the “woke up” scale? Was there one something that set you free?

            • Anita,
              Interesting article I found. Do Americans want to be serfs? Have we lost all sense of freedom and liberty?

              http://amconmag.com/article/2010/feb/01/00027/

              • Anita,

                Another intersting article.

                http://www.strike-the-root.com/node/26180

              • Thanks again: Now I’m really confused. The Declaration of Ind set us up for failure all by itself and we have fallen for it. What kinda shit is that? 🙂

              • According to this author, it was to set up a new government to replace the old one (the King of England). Freedom and individual rights was not the primary goal.

              • Thanks Birdman: Am I correct in assuming serfs=sheeple?

              • Serfs = slaves. The premise is that many don’t want liberty and freedom but cared for by the state. They are willing to give up freedom for goodies.

              • Also, through the generations, we have forgotten what freedom and liberty is or means. The serfs in Russia were willing to pay money out of their own pockets for a new master to buy them. In a way, we are doing the same thing with taxes to the state.

              • You’re right Birdman. All I want is my damn apple pie. Is that too much too ask for? It’s simple. Geez. Thanks for the lessons.

              • Hi There Birdman,

                I think Americans would rather be pets, than serfs. After all, serfs must earn their keep, pets just have to hang around for theirs.

              • Cyndi:

                Some definitely want to hang around for their goodies. It’s not a good life for them, they don’t live very well and barely get by.

              • Agreed. I get the impression that the pet people think that by voting for Ds they’ll live better at the expense of the ‘rich’. I think most Americans, rich and poor, really don’t know just how good they have it. Whatever it is they have, it just isn’t enough. They’ve bought into the promise of more goodies for the simple ‘trick’ of voting for Ds. Just like a dog learns to roll over for a tiny morsel, so have voters. It never occurs to them that with some true effort, they could have more than the morsel that is tossed their way. Very sad.

              • Yep. Now the big Q is not what we need to do but how we need to do it.

  45. Hi Ta’ll!

    Thought I’d throw my scale from above up and let everyone know where I stand on the many different parts of the theory.

    A. Is the NWO real or not?

    I’m still holding at 5 on this. There’s been no further evidence to support it, and no refuting evidence to say it does not exist.

    B. FEMA camps?

    I’ve moved right on this due the additional and undisputable info posted on this matter. I vote 10 on their existance, however, I’m still at 5 on the reason for their existance (whether it’s evil or not).

    C. Boxcars with shackle and guillotines?

    I’ve moved left to a 2 on the boxcars. I won’t completely rule out that there may be a plan of such. The guillotines are a solid 1, can’t really believe that one.

    D. The hospital in Alaska does not exist, and I have found no credible evidence to support it. That’s a 1.

    E. Added: Does government cause many of the nam made disasters and are they planning another?

    On having caused them, I’m at a seven. The evidence grows against them, but something absolute would be nice. On planning another, I have very strong suspicions that they are planning an economic collapse, so I’m at a 9 here. Don’t know if all the other stuff will be realized if this happens, but time will tell.

    Peace and Live Free! 🙂

    G!

    • GMan

      Good morning my friend. I held off commenting on particulars yesterday for obvious reasons. I wanted some calm reasoned thought on what I have to say.

      New World Order is an absolute TRUE. There is in fact a large body of folks, with money and power, who have been pushing for this for a long time. The UN is part of that effort, including its very creation. Its purpose though vague in detail is clearly stated in the quote BF provided yesterday. The elite were sick and tired of war and conflicts that jeopardize economic health nations. Their delusion is thinking that they can somehow “centrally plan and orchestrate” any real solution. But then again, they certainly have more knowledge than I about all that is entailed. If you control the nations money you control the nation. If you control the money of all the powerful nations, you control the power in the world.

      One World Government is an absolute TRUE. That is there is a large body of folks who absolutely believe that a single, global govt is required to create the Utopia of their dreams. This is largely the “environmental” movement type follks.

      Now, drum roll please……They are probably NOT the same groups. There may be overlap but they appear to have only some common goals, not all goals. A new order, for example, doesn’t necessarily require one govt or regulatory body for everything. If you have the central banks and a new global currency then you have enough to stop stupid leaders from getting out of hand. On the other hand, environmental regulation does required centralized govt control.

      The “core” environmental movement DOES support massive DE-POPULATION of the planet. The numbers vary but range from a 3 to 5 billion REDUCTION. These geniuses have determined THEY know the earth’s carrying capacity of humans. It is somewhere between 1 and 3 billion. This philosophy/belief system is the heart of the UN Agenda 21 we discussed last week. This is actually the most immediate threat to our soveriegnty in that there are in fact International initiatives and US initiatives being implemented to carry out some of the agenda’s goals. Not depopulation but growth control, massive land set asides for wildlife/plant diversity, etc. “sustainable growth/forestry/farming/etc intiatives”.

      Here is where we start to lose the distinction between the movements. The New Order and the One Govt types both use the UN and other global actions to carry out their activities. Thus it becomes hard to tell if they are the SAME or if they are SEPARATE. At this point I DON’T KNOW for certain.

      FEMA Camps. As I said last night, these are absolute TRUE. I am guessing based on my review of those close to me (see above post) that there number is far less than that being spread around. And many of the real ones have other primary purposes, like active military bases. So they exist, but we don’t know what the real intent or plans are. What we do know, for true, is that the purpose of some (those near the south) is to have pre-planned evacuation centers for major Hurricanes hitting the Gulf States. I do not think the supposed “detention camps” fit with the Marshall Law plan. I’ve posted D13’s comments below regarding the last plans he saw on how this would be implemented. Moving large numbers of people to large camps isn’t needed to gain control.

      D13’s post of months back:

      Wrong in the sense that the martial law would be so quick and unannounced, there would be no time for the populace to organize. And it would not be the entire country…just very selected pockets of it that controlled the rest of the country. Power grids and communications would go first and with the populace in the dark and only limited radio communications and no food being produced would control it quickly. You don’t have to fight the populace…just control it. There would be no planes, trains, and autos and once the gasoline ran out that was already in the vehicles, no way to get around. One week of starving the children and the cities and towns and not stopping the food riots and water riots and let the chaos reign….it is over before it starts.
      Not a pretty picture, is it. The populace, with the exception of a few, would drop their arms and eat. Weapons for food and water and unquestioned obedience to orders.
      Do not take this lightly. I have seen the program. The movies that Hollywood puts out is just that….a movie. Once martial law is declared, there is no local or National Government. Congress would be jailed and isolated. Mayors and teachers would be jailed and isolated. Schools and Universities shut down and local leaders isolated. The only safe places would be where the military controlled. After the mayhem settles down, then there would be a takeover, one town at a time. It is scary and it is powerful and the military leaders reign supreme. I, as an Army Colonel, would never advocate this. You do not want it and as romantic as it seems, you could not stop it. But, if I was still in the military, and it was ordered..I would follow my orders and so would most of the soldiers. We would not like it at all and it would be very emotional. As long as there was no armed conflict except defense, a soldier will endure a lot. Also, do not over look the fact that a soldier’s family would be picked up and isolated in safe compounds. Once a soldier’s family is ok, they will follow orders. It has been all thought out and I have not seen the final draft. By the way, this draft I am talking about originated first in 1968 and resurrected in 1995. I do not know the status of it as of 2005.

      Rail Cars. Unless the pictures are fake, all the rhetoric about who told who is irrelevant. They exist but we DON’T know what is inside. We DON’T know their real purpose. Quite frankly they look to tall to pass through most tunnels or under overpasses, but no scale is shown. The cars configuration does not match “auto carrier” as proposed, but it is possible that is there real purpose. The skirts along the bottom are more similar to “passenger” cars or “grain cars”, ie luggage storage or down spouts for dumping. The cars shown do not carry any typical railroad signs or logos. That is strange to me. MORE work is needed on this before we can move to the 1 or 10.

      Brother, you are correct in that this stuff is usually not my cup of tea. But that is not because I don’t’ believe some parts are true, or that our govt or some group is not capable of the awful things some suspect. As V.H. so elogquently noted yesterday, history is proof of the evil some men can do to others. Some of these have far more truth in them than most people can accept, from a psychological stand point. The discovery that your hero is evil and thus you are indirectly evil, is not an easy thing to come to grips with.

      I usually don’t get into them because I view them as distraction. For example, if the govt is going to create a crisis and round everyone up, we can’t do anything about it. As D13 showed, resistance would be futile on a large scale. At that point we are just trying to hide and survive. So my view is that if I can’t do anything about it then I must focus on what I can change. And that is the government itself.

      Where these theories come to play is only in convincing the die hards of just how evil their govt is. But in order to use it for that purpose there has to be absolutely no doubts, absolute evidence of what we claim as true. Otherwise it can be dismissed as “conspiracy theory”. Also, most folks, just like those here, will realize that govt is evil (or on the path to evil) long before we have to use fear of concentration camps to prove the point. You know, “the serenity to accept the things I cannot change and the courage to change the things I can.”

      I have much the same view of the 9/11 stuff. The collapse of building 7 has not been rationally explained by the govt. I have seen buildings imploded by demolition. That looks exactly the same. The towers I have no clue, experience or knowlege to make a conclusion. I have seen fighter jets augered into the ground with virtually no debris left. But an entire airliner in PA? The flight recorder for the pentagon is BS from my review and testimony of expert pilots. And, where the hell was the crash debris. BUT, what the hell can I do about it? NOTHING.

      If the govt was behind this in some way, nobody will ever succeed in uncovering the conspiracies. Not until the govt itself is replaced. Then and only then will we be able to access records and interrogate everyone invovled to find the truth. And for the record, there is no way that Bush/Cheney planned this all out. They could have been aware but the planning began long before they got into office. So again I come down on the side of focusing on something else. I am glad the TRUTHERS are out there doing their work. I might throw in some money to help them if needed. Their approach is based on reason and could eventually carry much weight as a result. But I just don’t have time or mental capacity to worry about it and do other things. You know, that aging thing.

      What I do spend time on, that is researching, watching, listening and fitting pieces together is the stuff on One Gov and New Order. That is because the causes and effects are real, exist today, and are part of the overall problems we are up against. We must be able to combat their efforts to get the truth to the masses of citizens. The AGW is part of that scenario. If that is exposed and debunked to the satisfaction of rational, non aligned, folks it will do more damage to the one worlder’s than anything short of a full conversion to VDLG. It will also help in getting VDLG across.

      Everyone needs to remember the old addage I shared here before, regarding the rule of industry lobbyists. The other side can lie and cheat and get away with it. We can not. We must tell the truth, the first time and all the time. We must make sure what we say is in fact true.

      When you are the one under suspicion, you only have to stumble once for the other side to destroy your credibility. That is why they focus so hard on Beck. Notice how Todd, Matt and others here quickly point out the discrepancies in Becks statements. That is how you destroy the message. Destroy the reputation of the messenger.

      Probably enough for now. I did enjoy the mental exercise caused by the trip to Oz. It caused me to sit down and sketch out scenarious to first test plausibility of some of these “theories”.

      Peace and freedom forever.
      Yours in the fight
      JAC

      • Thanks for all your input! I have to yesterday, I was getting disappointed that nothing was getting the normal logical thinking that always goes on here. Last night and today have certainly lived up tto the norm. I was hoping that all this stuff could be put to bed, for obvious reasons. Instead, it’s become a much more feasable reality, which scares the hell out of me! 😥

        I’m am at odds with myself, the “this can’t happen here” thinking vs. the “Oh shit, it can happen” is quite a contradiction to deal with. I remember many months back, the phrase “prepare for it” because it’s coming, has taken on a new meaning.

        This discussion has not turned out as I had imagined, which is a bit of a shock. It turned out better! 🙂

        Peace Brother!

        G!

    • Disasters, man or nature? Economic disasters can only be man made since economy is a man made phenomemon. Can they be triggered deliberately? Yes. Can they be triggered by stupidity? Yes. Which is happening now? Much of it is stupidity but there may be some driving for collapse for their own reasons. It is hard for me to understand how so many in political control at the state and federal levels can be so blind to the economic cliff ahead. They keep throwing more fuel on the fire in hopes I guess that the train will accelerate to the speed of light and jump the chasm. But their physics is lacking as the energy required is infinite. Don’t attribute to malicious intent what can be explained by stupidity. There was a video on the net recently of a CA congressman explaining to a reporter that our national debt was a measure of our national wealth. Such logic at this level is frightening.

      Natural disasters can be exacerbated. New Orleans is a case in point. We heard for decades the city was below the level of the river and could potentially flood. Yet politicians diverted the resources away from the levies to other projects. Once the flood hit, poor political response made it worse. After the flood, indecision and lack of planning have prolonged the recovery. San Francisco was destroyed in 1906. Within 4 days, most able bodied men were impressed into work gangs to clear streets and bring order to the chaos. The city was rebuilt in a few short years. The debris was dumbed in the Marina district creating a whole new section of town. The same thing happened in Chicago, as the debris from the fire was dumped along a section of the lake thus creating Lake Shore drive. I am not advocating irresponsible dumping but some of the debris from NO could have been used as fill in the lower sections of town, thus raising it to a level above the flood line.

      Here in Sacramento, we live with a constant threat of flooding. Levees are not high enough or strong enough to withhold the ultimate storm. In fact levees make the situation worse as the catastrophy is complete when they are breeched. But we continue to build houses on slabs in flood plains instead of moving out of the flood plains or requiring them to be raised above the high water line. The old govenor’s mansion in Sacramento is about 8′ above grade. This was to keep it out of the water when the floods came. Nearby are more modern houses built at grade level. We challenge nature and then cry when nature wins. It is our own fault. Unfortunately our government bails out the idiots that do this and allows them to rebuild back in the same locations in the same manner. And we allow governement to do this because we feel sorry for the idiots.

      My Mom and brothers live in Cedar Rapids. While the flood response there was much better than in NO, there has been trouble with the recovery as well. Again political indecision is the big problem. In NO, one can survive the winter without much for shelter. In IA, that is not the case. But because of foot dragging, many homeowners could not get permission to rebuild or to get clear codes on how to rebuild before the winter set in. So they waste a perfectly good building season and wait in temporary shelter while pols twiddle there thumbs. 150 years ago, they would have just rebuild and been down with it now.

      I have always swore that if one of my family in the Midwest lost a home due to a tornado, that I would pack up my truck with camping gear and tools, grab the boys and be onsite in days. We would have a new house completed in under 8 weeks. Rules be damned.

      • SK Trynosky Sr says:

        Completely agree, had the Chicago fire or the San Francisco quake of ’06 happened today, we would have spent 20 years studying the problem to death before a brick was laid.

        Considering that the Empire State Building was built in 364 days, Every day, when I drive past the WTC site, I am disgusted.

        Looking at the pictures of the “urban renewal’ done in Germany by the mighty 8th and that done in Japan by the 20th, it is amazing today to see how quickly those cities were rebuilt. Just imagine if Hiroshima or Nagasaki were in Kansas, There would be a twenty mile corridor around the site sixty five years later and they would probably have encapsulated it in concrete.

        • SK,

          The rebuild is merely political – who is going to pay for it? Who is designing it? etc.

          The government is involved – there’s your answer.

          The economy sucks so I doubt anyone will fund a rebuild.

          • SK Trynosky Sr says:

            Oh, it is getting done alright but it is like molasses at the south pole.

            It is composed of mostly finger pointing and lawsuits. And let us not forget some of the 9-11 families who wanted the site vacuumed to find the last possible fingernail or molar and are actually still pushing for another sifting of the mound in Fresh Kills on Staten Island.

            As the society becomes more complex things slow down… and down…and down…

            Re: the hasty cleanup. Either you are right in which case Rudy was either in on it or a dupe or, Rudy was smart enough to realize that they would have taken twenty years to argue out the best way and in the end would have capped the whole thing with concrete to keep the asbestos in.

      • T-Ray,

        I quote a Swedish King to his son that was sent to negotiate a treaty.

        The son complained that he knew nothing and was an ignorant man to go do such a key treaty.

        The King said;
        “Son, you do not know the level of incompetence that operates the world. You do fine.”

        Yes, we must be careful not to see malice where mere incompetence satisfies the explanation.

      • Hi T-Ray,

        I think the current economic disaster is due to both stupidity and intent. Stupidity created the ripe circumstances for those with intent to make their play. I’m still sure that the $550 BILLION that disappeared from the stock market in less than 2 hours on 17 Sept 2008 was no accident. The economy crapped on itself just in time for O to be ‘elected'(I suspect massive fraud due to ACORN). The silence of the MSM on the $550 billion is very telling to me. I expect another economic hit before the November election. O will go before the sheeple and read to them he needs a congress full of Ds to apply the ‘fix’, that the Rs will never cooperate with him because they’re all hate filled RACISTS! That’s the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is that the economy gives its last gasp and we don’t have elections becaues of ‘unrest’.

  46. SK Trynosky Sr says:

    Ah, just to keep things rolling along, remember that det cord (detonation cord for the uninitiated) looks an awful lot like plastic clothesline, it would not be terribly hard to produce it looking like telephone line.

    In this case, the telephone line could have been strung by employees of The Telephone Company anywhere in the WTC and Pentagon buildings without anyone knowing or even remembering it as something out of the ordinary.

    As proof that the idea has been thought of before, or at least the mechanism for installation, see “The President’s Analyst”. Starring James Coburn (1967) It was TPC who did it!

    • OMG – what is one of the main structural supports of modern high rises? The elevator shafts. Doesn’t it seem like one of the elevators is always ‘Closed for Maintenance’? Did you ever notice that most elevator repair men are middle-eastern decent? I’m not trying to be racist or anything, but they just are… And what do elevators use? Cable!!

      They’ve been systematically swapping the titanium elevator cables for thermite elevator cable. Detonating that cable will destroy the structural integrity of the elevator shaft and cause the building to go into free fall…

      • Maybe, but the elevator shaft was not the supporting mechanism for WTC towers. It happens that the elevators were put into the supporting mechanism of the towers.

    • SK Trynosky Sr. says:

      As proof that it was The Phone Company (TPC) behind it, I offer you the twenty five year old break-up of the mega monopoly ATT. Fearing them, some in the government went to court and had ATT split up into much smaller units. Some 25 year later, these smaller units have merged and re-merged into, yes, ATT.

      Today the phone lines have become like tentacles around the countries and peoples of the world. With the expansion of the Internet and cellular communication there are battles raging in boardrooms all over the world regarding ultimate control of ALL information (see Google and China). There are interlocking directorates and even I, when receiving quarterly reports, see that profits are measured in euros as often as they are in dollars.

      It is no accident that Judge Harold Green, who made the landmark decision regarding the break up of the phone company died of an alleged cerebral hemorrhage in 2000. How often during the cold war did important figures, even Franklin Roosevelt for that matter die of a cerebral hemorrhage. For that matter the fact that he died in the year 2000 is telling in itself. For those who care, read the biography of the judge, you will find that he was a holocaust refugee, inducted into the United States Army in 1943 who worked in intelligence (OSS connection?).

      Judge Greene, the logical man to lead the way and point out the re-emergence of ATT as now a world-wide monopolistic threat had to be gotten out of the way before SBC made the final push, bought up the old ATT assets and renamed the company the “new” ATT. What happened to the others who pushed for divestiture, have they been gotten out of the way, bought off or scared off?

      There, see how easy that was!

      Have fun.

  47. Todd,
    “Your inaction does nothing to stop government”

    As the Batman said, “Who said anything about stopping the train?”

    Government will destroy itself – I need do absolutely nothing to make this happen.

    If I try to destroy government, government gets larger and stronger – it feeds on violence.

    If I support government, government gets larger and stronger – it feeds of my allegiance to violence.

    I avoid government – neither do I strike at it nor am in the way of its strike.

    I bury it with irrelevance.

    • Your avoidance of government allows it’s evil to continue.

      • Todd

        So you agree it is evil?

      • Ah Todd, you do not understand the energy of government at all.

        History shows that the competing areas between domains – called “The March” were the freest. Between France and Spain where the Basque live was one such area, the Caribbean another, the North Scotlands another – for quick examples.

        As long as the people there didn’t hold to one or the other competing power, they were left alone. When one power attempted to influence, they were often ignored – neither competing power could mount an invasion – to do so would raise a large army, and cause the other powers to raise one too, in case the invasion was really against them!

        The power in the March was government irrelevance – and they remained free because of it.

  48. Wow.

    After today, I wonder if the name of this site is a misnomer.

  49. Ack your starting to hurt my head now BF, right then so it was thermite then? We have definitely ruled out conventional explosives.

    Right then if it was thermite that cut the beams, how much would they have had to use? How long would it take to burn through the columns? Would a cable the thickness of a telephone line (perfectly positioned by the way) be able to cut through a support beam?

    You seem to be a bit vague here, I would like to know what you think cut through those beams because all the research I have gone through has revealed nothing that would do it using the requirements you have given.

    • Bob

      For the most part I’m staying out og the 9/11 issue with you guys. But I’d like to add one thing. Our military (yours too) technology is quite advanced. There are many things that have been developed that regular citizens will never know of.

      In the early 90’s, we tested a Swiss made bullet for a 9mm handgun, M-16, and M-60 machinegun. These bullets were a very new type of armor piercing, that, as the tests proved, were a new technical advance in this area. A simple 9mm handgun, distance 25 yards (measured), 1 inch thick plate steel with 36 inches of simulated human flesh behind it. The bullet went through the steel, and 18 inches into the gell cake. It also went completely through an engine block, and through the full 36 inches of gell.

      My point is, just because we, as citizens don’t know about it, does not mean it does not exist. I’ve also seen other weapons tested that would shock the average citizen. If you believe that laser weapons don’t exist, I can affirm, through firsthand knowledge, they have existed for quite some time.

      Sorry to interupt your chat with BF! 🙂

      Peace and Live Free!

      G!

      • Sorry G-Man instead of looking at the plausible we are venturing into the implausible, you talk of secret unknown explosives and you might as well have said (quoting The Simpsons) “a wizard did it”. Instead of rationally debating things that we know exist we enter the dark realm of trying to quantify an event with things that we dont know exist. When people do this it always leads to trouble.

        • Neat!

          The discussion is about the unknown, and nobody wants to include the distinct possibility of the known, which is tehnological advances that we may not be aware of, but know they exist to some extent.

          Thanks Bob, I have now managed to confuse myself 😆

          As if you guys haven’t already done that!

          G!

          • Well how about instead of trying to draw conclusions on what we dont know, we draw them from what we do know! Great success!

            • I’m for that! I think much has come from the last two days, that could help us all.

              G!

            • Bob,

              We cannot because the information is incomplete.

              What we do know is that never in history has any steel building collapsed by fire – none.

              We do know the buildings exhibited freefall – which is impossible if they pancake theory is the explanation.

              So we know this:

              the explanation given can not be true.

    • Bob,

      We haven’t ruled out anything.

      All we have done is ruled IN something.

      There are ways to protect conventional explosives from unintended fire ignition, I’m sure. But that is my speculation – all I do know is most explosives are fire sensitive. Also know that thermite is not.

      How much? As much as they need.

      How long? Depends on how much they used. Remember thermate cuts a magnitude faster then thermite.

      Would one cable, or 10? They would use as much as they calculated plus extra – and yep, well positioned – but when you have all day, week, month or year, you can take your time and do the job right.

      Vague! Sure am! That’s the point. Questions, questions, questions – when the answers do not make sense at all.

      Forward your research links regarding your findings. I like to learn too!

      • SK Trynosky Sr. says:

        C-3 and C-4 burn. I would assume the same for semtex. Pieces of C-4 could be broken off and burned to heat up C-rats. I also heard that they could be chewed for a quick high but never tried that.

      • I have been to around 30 different sites and blogs I am afraid, I can only suggest typing WTC into google and going through the first 4 or five pages, you will no doubt visit many of the sites I have been to.

        Well its 1am here time for bed.

        • Goodnight my friend! May you sleep peaceful!

          G!

        • Bob,

          Then I’ve seen the stuff already.

          The questions remain – so investigation is required.

          Are you afraid of the answers?

          • If you keep looking for things that are not there, eventually you will see them.

            • Of course that means they WERE there, but you just couldn’t see them or wouldn’t see them.

            • SK Trynosky Sr says:

              Bob, Excellent point.

              I’ve been down this road before with Mr. Flag to no avail.

              The WTC was designed to take a hit from a 707, considerably smaller than the planes that hit it. That assumption probably included the fact that the steel was insulated with asbestos which, because of the “dangers” of asbestos, stopped being used during construction. The fireproofing actually used on the upper floors was less effective. The building derived its support from the central core and the exterior exoskeleton. The two were not tied together with horizontal I beams but with trusses. Trusses are two steel plates connected with diagonal spot welded supports. They have the same support strength as I beams but cannot take a fire the way I beams do. They are neither as thick nor as heavy .

              All this was covered with a concrete floor sitting on top of the trusses. The selling point of the WTC was that all offices and floors were full open space, no columns, no vertical I beams to disrupt architectural plans.

              When the planes struck they sliced through a number of floors and dumped their fuel. The shock of the hit dislodged a large amount of sprayed on fireproofing. As you pointed out, the horizontal steel sagged. The weight of the unsupported concrete caused those floors to collapse on themselves. Like a controlled demolition, as each floor pancaked onto the next, the weight was magnified and even the undamaged steel could not take the impact. As the floors fell, nothing was left to hold the core to the skeleton and a millisecond later, the exterior collapsed and then the core. The core was tied together with horizontal I beams so it held together a fraction longer . The “puffs” of smoke noted in that second prior to exterior collapse were from air being forced out by the pancaking concrete.

              Where the idea comes from that this type of fire cannot deform steel, I don’t know. I have been through fire damaged buildings and have seen steel I beams deformed. The horizontals at the Trade Center were not as strong as I beams would have been.

              WTC 7, where the City’s emergency management was and where Mayor Guilliani’s and his staff were, had, for reasons known only to the designers, huge, fuel tanks on an upper floor. These were breached by debris during the collapse of the two towers. I was there the next day and saw the damage to other close by buildings. Well, that fire burned for like seven hours before it weakened the steel enough to cause the collapse.

              Conspiracies fail like secrets, once more than two people know about them, they are not a secret anymore. Think Watergate and Iran-Contra. Some really dedicated folks there and they blew wide open anyway. Oh yes, I agree with you about the Manhattan project too. It was infiltrated with Soviet spies and fellow travelers from the beginning. Had Stalin and Hitler remained allies, the Germans would have found out. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Abwher did know but did not place a high enough priority on it.

              On 9/11, my third son was attending the US Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point NY. From the roof of the engineering building, you can see lower Manhattan. During the fire and subsequent collapse his professor took them all up on the roof and they watched it. They then went back to class, where the professor, having some experience with the WTC design, explained what I have written above to his class.

              • One other point I might make, when the floors collapsed and eventually when the upper stories fell, there would be shock waves transmitted all the way to the foundation at the speed of sound. These waves could contain a tremendous amount of energy.

              • T-Ray,

                That is not true.

                The shock waves could only be created by impacts.

                If there were impacts, the building could not freefall – as already demonstrated in the videos to Bob.

                Shock waves cannot precede the rate of collapse as they are absorbed by the layers of floors between.

                Air is compressible. Concrete is not.

                You need a bit more physics education, sir.

              • Shock waves are acooustic waves. All matter (vacuums are a lack of matter) transmit acoustic waves according to their properties. Some only for short distances such as foam rubber or other acoustic absorbers. Steel is a very good transmitter of sound, in fact the velocity of sound in metals is much greater than the velocity of sound in air. A floor collapse could send a shock wave down the columns and/or central core. That wave would reflect at the bottom and then travel back up the columns. This is a compression/rarification wave, so for it to be tranmsitted does in fact prove that steel (and cement for that matter) is compressible. Simple experiment: Put your ear to a cement wall or a steel girder and have someone hit it with a hammer on the other side.

                Cement is not only compressible it is also brittle thus if the shock wave is strong enough, it will shatter. Otherwise a jack hammer would be ineffective. I know, I’ve run one.

                As for black smoke, that is soot which is aglomerated carbon particles from incomplete combustion. It comes from burning plastics, fuel, and many other objects rich in carbon. Yes the fire was probably oxygen starved but that does not mean it could not have been hot enough to cause failure of the steel beams. You do not have to melt them, just raise the temperature sufficiently that they can not support the weight. Look up the McCormick Place fire in the late ’60s in Chicago. Mayor Daley’s grand concrete and steel convention center burned down. The steel roof girders collapsed but the steel did not melt. Go to a blacksmith shop and see how they work iron. You don’t need to melt it to bend it. Done it myself many times.

                I am not the one that needs to learn physics.

              • I need to add that if you dehydrate concrete it loses its strength as well. Cement that has been in a very hot fire crumbles in your hand.

              • SK Trynosky Sr says:

                Thank you sir, It’s nice to have some back-up on these things. You , at least, pointed out a structural collapse caused by a fire in a predominently steel building.

              • T-Ray,

                Acoustic shock is not a pressure shock.

                We are not talking about sound travel, we are talking about squibs 10 floors down below the collapse line.

                Consider your own words:

                Cement is not only compressible it is also brittle thus if the shock wave is strong enough, it will shatter. Otherwise a jack hammer would be ineffective. I know, I’ve run one.

                First concrete IS NOT COMPRESSIBLE. That is why we use it. IT IS BRITTLE that is why it crumbles.

                For your scenario to be correct to explain the squibs is that the floors 10 stories below the collapse line — collapsed.

                You are starting to make up fantasy and magic to explain what your own eyes tell you cannot be true.

              • T-ray
                Yes the fire was probably oxygen starved but that does not mean it could not have been hot enough to cause failure of the steel beams. You do not have to melt them, just raise the temperature sufficiently that they can not support the weight. Look up the McCormick Place fire in the late ’60s in Chicago. Mayor Daley’s grand concrete and steel convention center burned down. The steel roof girders collapsed but the steel did not melt.

                You give an example that demonstrates exactly my point – the steel of bent and concrete crumbled – it did not disintegrate.

                The whole building did not collapse, one one part and it was Asymmetrical.

                You need to pick your examples better. But it really isn’t your fault, because none exist – so you have none to choose from. Makes it hard.

                But I do. I have many videos of building demolish.

                They show squibs in advance of the collapse – they pulverize the concrete and they fall symmetrically.

                Now, as you are into examples lately, out of a set of ZERO (your set) or my set of hundreds – which one do you think the WTC 1,2,7 would more likely belong with?

                Further, the WTC suffered far worse fires for longer in its past – on lower floors carrying 80% of the weight of the building.

                You trying to make us believe that a shorter fire, higher in the building would collapse it.

                You do not know about ‘heat capacity’. Since you’re in example mode – next time you’re at the Blacksmith put one end of the steel in the fire and hold the other end.

                One of the properties of steel is that it transfer heat away from the source and distributes it throughout the steel.

                Further, the design was overbuilt to 10x the load capacity – this would mean the steel need to lose 90% of its strength – or 1000C. The temp. was not that high – I’ve already published the fireman’s own words fighting the fire.

                And, IF the temp. was such to cause a failure – your theory fails at the symmetry. I’m sure you watching steel bend at your blacksmith, it bent in only one direction.

              • And that’s the problem with your explanation, T-Ray.

                One part of your explanation – to be true – makes it unable to explain the rest of the parts.

                Pancake theory depends on symmetry – but the fire was not.

                Zipper effect can’t explain squibs.

                Progress collapse – only one other example and that was the Okl. bombing – was a….bomb!

                So the best you can do is jump from one theory to another – invalidating your old with the new – until you come full circle.

                That’s the problem – your explanation cannot answer the questions.

                It is as bad as the flight recorder inconsistency of the Pentagon strike.

              • SK,

                You are factually in serious error.

                WTC was designed for multiple hits of a fully loaded and fueled 707.

                707
                Max. Weight
                333,600 lb (151,320 kg)

                Fuel
                23,820 US gal (90,160 l)

                Speed
                525 kn (972 km/h)

                Engines
                4

                767
                It was hit by a LIGHTLY load – so now where near maximum weight

                Weight
                315,000 lb

                Max Fuel
                23,980 U.S. gal (90,770 L)

                Max Speed
                568 mph 913 km/h at 35,000 feet (which they were not)

                Engines
                2

                Why are the engines important?

                Because the rest of the plane is made out of ‘tin foil’ – it is the engines that do the damage to buildings as they are practically indestructible.

                So, SK, your statement is patently false. You obviously have never seen a 707 or been in one.

              • SK,

                Fire proofing:

                The fires were ‘black’ which indicates a oxygen starved fire.

                The hottest a open fire can reach in temp. – under perfect conditions – is 800C or about 1200C lower than the melting point of steel.

                However these were not hot fires – they were smoldering fires – hence the black smoke.

                The were so ‘un hot’ that people are seen standing in the scares of the WTC – if your claim was true, they would be aflame. They are not.

                Sorry, SK – your 0 for 2, so far.

              • SK,

                I’m not sure where you are getting your information, but so far its not that correct.

                The building derived its support from the central core and the exterior exoskeleton.

                Wholly false. 100% of the support of the towers was the core. The floors were cabled and laid so that all their weight pushed straight down on the center core.

                The exo-steel skeleton was to provide the rigidity NOT SUPPORT for the structure to resist wind – up to hurricane blast force. The tower would sway and swing to absorb the wind force.

                0 for 3

              • SK Trynosky Sr says:

                Lessee, the core of the WTC was to support the weight of the concrete floors which stretched from the core to the exoskeleton. Hmm, can’t exactly envision that one. That would sort of pre suppose that the floors were all cantilevered out from the core, quite an engineering feat that. The trusses were connected to exactly what on the outside? If the trusses gave way, does that mean that the cabled supports were supposed to hold it all?

                In addition to an oxygen starved fire, the color of the smoke is indicative of what is being burned. Tires, tar, and fuel oil tend to give off a blackish smoke. Paper and wood lighter smoke. There did seem to me to be an awful lot of ventilation from those airplane shaped holes in the side of the buildings, and there is that wonderful draft effect which prevented the helicopters fro approaching. Oxygen starved, maybe in some locations, not others. I have seen masonry and wood buildings after a burn. Many had steel I-beams to span between bearing and exterior walls. I have seen them bowed in the middle to the point where they fell out of their pockets and off their supports.

                Correct, never was on a 707. made a few trips though on KC-135’s. Don’t have the stats on the early 707’s only know that the engines on the originals were smaller than they are today. The planning for the WTC’s construction assumed aircraft of the time, not of the future. Also don’t forget that there was no planning done for a deliberate hit.

                Didn’t someone once show me a picture of a soda straw embedded in a two by four after a tornado. Those airplane shaped holes were made in the sides of the WTC by tinfoil traveling at great speed.

                Nothing, I learned years ago, is fireproof. It is only fire retardant. After a while it will burn through. We will never and could never learn the extent of interior damage to the buildings.Several fire fighting friends and engineers have told me that had the insulation not been changed on the higher floors from asbestos to something less effective, the buildings might have stayed up longer. That I don’t know about, seems to me the shock of the hit probably would have dislodged just about anything.

                I am afraid on this one you and I will never agree. Knowing NYC firefighters though, if there were even a hint of this being a gigantic coverup, those guys would have spent themselves into poverty to prove it.

                One other point, probably irrelevant to you, the second building was hit lower and across more floors. It fell first.

              • SK,

                As you pointed out, the horizontal steel sagged.

                No sagging was observed at all.

                Further if there was a sag, the momentum of such a motion would continue and the towers would have toppled.

                But it did not topple – they fell straight down.

              • SK Trynosky Sr says:

                The trusses sagged, broke loose from the exterior walls and the concrete, like in a controlleddemolition dropped.
                The outside of the building, just for a millisecond directed the collapse straight down before it peeled away like a banana skin. Not exactly a true comparison but that is sort of what a shaped charge does. before its vaporized, that cone shaped device directs the explosion.

                On tower one, you can see the TV mast lean slightly as it dropped but it dropped fast enough and the steel outer skeleton lasted long enough to save a lot of lives.

                I suffer from not being able to remember specifics but there have been cases, in new construction, where buildings pancaked while under construction because of inadequate intermediary support, poor placement of re-bar etc. Once the first floor goes, it is all over.
                Regarding the placement of explosives on the floors that were to be hit by the aircraft. It would seem tom me that electrical connections would have been destroyed by the impact or fires. If plastic was used, it too would have been burnt unless it was placed well below the aircraft hit. Your theory presupposes incredibly skilled pilots who hit exactly where they were supposed to.

              • SK,

                But you forgot your physics lesson already.

                IF they pancaked, they cannot freefall – they would be converting momentum into force on the next floor.

                This slows the fall time significantly.

                Physics calculates that if pancake theory was true, it would have taken minutes – not seconds – to collapse.

                Please review this calculation.

              • Here is an interesting video.

                Where NIST themselves tested the paint to see how hot it got and found the fires only went up to 250F

                http://www.livevideo.com/video/E22085AC4B3141398E226B54557E66D2/9-11-truth-wtc-towers-were-br.aspx

              • http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_plane_segment_2.rm

                Here is the computer simulation of the crash into the tower

              • Sk,

                Like a controlled demolition, as each floor pancaked onto the next, the weight was magnified and even the undamaged steel could not take the impact.

                I take it you ignored the videos that I posted to Bob that wholly discredits this statement.

                You do not obviously understand momentum and energy and Newton’s Laws.

                As the floors fell, nothing was left to hold the core to the skeleton and a millisecond later, the exterior collapsed and then the core.

                The core does not need the skeleton for support.

                The blue prints and analysis by the designers themselves proves you seriously in error.

                If your theory was correct – the core should have been left standing straight up into the sky 100+ stories high.

                However, this is not observed at all.

                The “puffs” of smoke noted in that second prior to exterior collapse were from air being forced out by the pancaking concrete.

                The ‘puffs’ cannot move faster or in advance of the collapse.

                Air is compressible – concrete is not.

                Where the idea comes from that this type of fire cannot deform steel, I don’t know. I have been through fire damaged buildings and have seen steel I beams deformed.

                Please explain the motel steel in the basement.

                WTC has had more serious and longer fires than 9/11, and did not collaspe – there are NO OTHER EXAMPLES of any steel building collapsing due to fire.

                I do not know where you get the idea this is possible?

                The horizontals at the Trade Center were not as strong as I beams would have been.

                They didn’t have to be as they carried only the point load – not the building load.

                Again, you must not be talking about the WTC tower in your analysis.

                WTC 7, where the City’s emergency management was and where Mayor Guilliani’s and his staff were, had, for reasons known only to the designers, huge, fuel tanks on an upper floor.

                You do not know the reason they have fuel tanks on the roof??

                They were their to run the generators to maintain power to the building in case of emergency.

                These were breached by debris during the collapse of the two towers. I was there the next day and saw the damage to other close by buildings. Well, that fire burned for like seven hours before it weakened the steel enough to cause the collapse.

                Never in history has a building collapsed due to fire. The WTC 7 were not raging fires.

                Further, WTC 7 was reinforced to be able to withstand anything including a near-miss nuclear explosion.

                Do not pander some belief this was a weak building.

                Further, if your theory was true, the collapse would be asymmetrical – that is a toppling – but it did not.

                You have no physics, nor law of Nature that explains your theory.

                Conspiracies fail like secrets, once more than two people know about them, they are not a secret anymore. Think Watergate and Iran-Contra.

                Think Gulf of Tonkin and JFK.

                Your mistake – and Bob’s – is to believe secrecy is a component of conspiracy.

                But it is not. Here is the definition.

                An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.

                Please locate the word “secrecy” or any of its synonyms in the definition.

                A conspiracy is successful if it accomplishes its goal without consequences to its actors

                Secret has nothing to do with it. It helps the actors avoid consequences but it is not required to do so.

                Again, I point to Gulf of Tonkin – many of the actors that are still alive and not in jail.

                Some really dedicated folks there and they blew wide open anyway. Oh yes, I agree with you about the Manhattan project too. It was infiltrated with Soviet spies and fellow travelers from the beginning. Had Stalin and Hitler remained allies, the Germans would have found out.

                No, neither would have. The Soviet spies were not vetted because they were allies.

                Quote:he Soviet Union proved more adept at espionage, primarily because it was able to play on the ideological sympathies of a significant number of Americans and British as well as foreign émigrés

                The German spies were vetted because they were enemies.

                That is why Stalin knew – but very little – about it and Hitler knew nothing.

                I wouldn’t be surprised if the Abwher did know but did not place a high enough priority on it.

                Your lack of surprise does not constitute an argument.

                It is speculation that Germany did not hold any interest because they proved to themselves that it could not be done. Of course, they were wrong.

                On 9/11, my third son was attending the US Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point NY. From the roof of the engineering building, you can see lower Manhattan. During the fire and subsequent collapse his professor took them all up on the roof and they watched it. They then went back to class, where the professor, having some experience with the WTC design, explained what I have written above to his class.

                It is obvious he did not know anything about 707’s nor the design and building of WTC nor much about Newton’s laws and physics.

              • SK Trynosky Sr says:

                This could, conceivably go on forever. How many other buildings using the design of the WTC have burned? How many others, using the design of WTC 7 and being on fire for hours with apparently unlimited fuel and with the fires not being fought have burned?

                Without that information, we have nothing to go on. Who said anything about compressing concrete? If windows were intact and the floor fell, the air pressure would have been enough to blow out windows and junk.

                Who knows if the core was damaged. I cannot see it being strong enough to be subjected to forces on all four sides and not fall.

                Once I finally looked out of that window at the Texas School Book depository, I gave up the notion of a conspiracy. Easy shot, especially for a stone cold killer.

                Tonkin Gulf? first attack was probably real, second was not. The conspiracy failed, we know about it. We have talked to the people at the radar sets. Had the media done their job back then, we would have known it sooner.

                As always, it has been a pleasure fencing with you but I will let this rest for now.

                Best.

  50. Right so your definition of a conspiracy includes this:

    “You did not know about those operations when they were going on.”

    Back to the Manhattan project, the Russians did know what was going on during the supposed conspiracy so it failed.

    And back to my original point! I claim that the WTC conspiracy relies on the complete secrecy of the hundreds, possibly thousands of civilian and military individuals involved. You claim this isnt the case, what would happen if the US government released a statement saying “LOL we did 9/11 after all! What ya gonna do about it?”.

    • Sorry Bob,

      Go back to what I said.

      If it works it was successful. They were successful.

      You believe that a conspiracy can only be successful if it is unknown? But that is not how it works.

      Gulf of Tonkin. A very successful conspiracy. It got the US into the war in Vietnam – which was the purpose of the conspiracy.

      Now, did the US plan the Gulf of Tonkin incident – no. BUT their conspiracy was to setup a large number of trigger points – ships near the national waters, troops in exposed positions, maybe even some diplomats placed in precarious situations – any one of them to be used as an excuse to go to war.

      The Tonkin won the race – a mistaken radarman reading a blip, tells his captain, who tells the Pentagon who tells the Executive – and “poof” war!

      Sure, 24 hours later everyone knew it was a mistake. But no one exposed it. 58,000 American soliders later plus millions of Vietnamese – whoops! Tonkin was a mistaken blip on a radar screen.

      That is how conspiracies work, Bob.

      • Does 9/11 WTC demolition rely on everyone involved to keep it secret? Would one person with sufficient knowledge and evidence be able expose the conspiracy?

        • No.

          In fact, I believe many know and a lot more who acted did not know what they were doing.

          Again, ask D13 or USWep about “Compartmentalization”

  51. A small off-subject from Germany. Does this explain how the German media is getting it all wrong as well?

    The Financial Times Deutschland writes:

    “For Obama, the election in Massachusetts means that he will have to re-evaluate his political style. He could now focus his concentration on his political base and push through his policy agenda. After all, he still has a majority in Congress — he could back away from his strategy of bipartisanship … which would mean giving up much of what he spent his first year in office creating.”

    “More likely, however, is that Obama will interpret the Massachusetts loss as a signal that he should move further toward the middle and make more concessions to the conservatives — even if this alienates his base even further, a base which had high expectations from the ‘yes we can’ candidate.”

    “back away from his strategy of bipartisanship” Yea right!

    • As with many things, it all starts from your perspective and your premises.

      Often when we see mistakes, it is because ‘whatever’ started off on the wrong foot. Half way through the process, if someone says “Switch feet!” – they’ve gone too far down a path to stop.

      • An old parable:

        A man is seen running and pushing his bicycle. Another yells at him; ‘If you’re in such a hurry, why don’t you ride your bicycle?’

        The reply; “I’m in too much of hurry to stop running to get on the bicycle”.

        • Judy Sabatini says:

          That’s funny. Funny, I can just picture that too, makes me laugh even more.

        • That reminds me of the time I worked on an avionics production line as a test technician. I saw lots of mistakes that could have been avoided by taking the time to review the work before it ever got to me. It seems the assemblers didn’t have the time to do it right the first time, but there was time for me to troubleshoot and then have someone else do the repair. After awhile, I recognized the fault and the fix right away but was unathorized to make the repair myself. I had to put the item in que for the ‘solders’ to work. Lots of time wasted when allowing the assmbler an extra couple of minutes to review their work could have saved so much time.

    • I saw that too. I made me laugh out loud. Sheeesh!

  52. For Judy (mostly) 😉

    I don’t know if Don Rickles actually said these things but it funny!

    Hello, dummies! Oh my God, look at you. Anyone else hurt in the accident?

    Seriously, Senator Reid has a face of a Saint – A Saint Bernard. Now I know why they call you the arithmetic man. You add partisanship, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance. Reid is so physically unimposing, he makes Pee Wee Herman look like Mr. T. And Reid’s so dumb, he makes Speaker Pelosi look like an intellectual. Nevada is soooo screwed! If I were less polite, I’d say Reid makes Kevin Federline look successful.

    Speaking of the Speaker… Nancy Pelosi, hubba, hubba! Hey baby, you must’ve been something before electricity. Seriously, the Speaker may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don’t let that fool you. She really is an idiot. Madame Speaker… want to make twelve bucks the hard way? Pelosi says she’s not partisan, but her constituents call her Madame Pelossilini.

    Charlie Rangel… still alive and still robbing the taxpayers blind. What does that make, six decades of theft? Rangel’s the only man with a rent-controlled mansion. He’s the guy who writes our tax laws but forgot to pay taxes on $75 grand in rental income! So why isn’t he the Treasury Secretary? Rangel runs more scams than a Nigerian Banker.

    Barney Frank – he’s a better actor than Fred Flintstone. Consider… he and Dodd caused the whole financial meltdown and they’re not only not serving time with Bubba and Rodney, they’re still heading up the financial system! Let’s all admit it… Barney Frank slobbers more than a sheepdog on Novocain.. How did this guy get elected? Oh, that’s right… he’s from Massachusetts. That’s the state that elects Mr. Charisma, John Kerry — man of the people!

    You know, if Senator Dodd were any more crooked, you could open wine bottles with him.
    Here’s a news flash, Dodd: when your local newspaper calls you a “lying weasel”, it may be time to retire. Dodd’s involved in more shady deals than the Clintons. Even Rangel looks up to him!

    Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, I really respect you… especially given your upbringing. All you’ve overcome…. I heard your birth certificate is an apology from the condom factory. I don’t know what makes you so dumb, but it really works for you. Personally, I don’t think you’re a fool, but what’s my opinion compared to that of thousands of others?

    As for President Obama, what can I say? They say President Obama’s arrogant and aloof, but I don’t agree. Now it’s true when you enter the room, you have to kiss his ring. I don’t mind, but he has it in his back pocket. His mind is open to new ideas — so open that ideas simply pass through it. Obama lies so much, I was actually surprised to find out his first name really was Barack. Just don’t ask about his middle name! But Obama was able to set a record… he actually lied more in 60 days than Bill Clinton.

    FOR THOSE THAT VOTED FOR “HOPE AND CHANGE”….

    BEND OVER AND PREPARE TO RECEIVE YOUR BOUNTY!

  53. Judy Sabatini says:

    Subj: Poker Players

    Two couples were playing poker one evening. Jim accidentally dropped some cards on the floor.

    When he bent down under the table to pick them up, he noticed Bob’s wife, Sue , wasn’t wearing any underwear under her dress! Shocked by this, Jim upon trying to sit back up again, hit his head on the table and emerged red-faced..

    Later, Jim went to the kitchen to get some refreshments. Bob’s wife followed and asked, ‘Did you see anything that you like under there?’ Surprised by her boldness, Jim admitted that, well indeed he did.

    She said, ‘Well, you can have it but it will cost you $500.’

    After taking a minute or two to assess the financial and moral costs of this offer, Jim confirms that he is interested.

    Sue told him that since her husband Bob worked Friday afternoons and Jim didn’t, Jim should be at her house around 2 p.m. Friday afternoon.

    When Friday rolled around, Jim showed up at Bob’s house at 2 p.m. sharp and after paying Sue the agreed sum of $500 – they went to the bedroom and closed their transaction, as agreed.

    Jim quickly dressed and left.

    As usual, Bob came home from work at 6 p.m. And upon arriving, asked his wife: ‘Did Jim come by the house this afternoon?’

    With a lump in her throat Sue answered ‘Why yes, he did stop by for a few minutes this afternoon.’

    Her heart nearly skipped a beat when her husband curtly asked, ‘And did he give you $500?’

    Sue, using her best poker face, replied, ‘Well, yes, in fact he did give me $500.’

    Bob, with a satisfied look on his face, surprised his wife by saying, ‘He came by the office this morning and borrowed $500 from me. He promised he’d stop by our house this afternoon on his way home and pay me back.’

    Now THAT, my friends, is a poker player !

  54. Judy Sabatini says:

    This is a great letter.

    GLENN BECK: I got a letter from a woman in Arizona . She writes an open letter to our nation’s leadership:

    “I am a home grown American citizen, 53, registered Democrat all my life. Before the last presidential election I registered as a Republican because I no longer felt the Democratic Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. Now I no longer feel the Republican Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. The fact is I no longer feel any political party or representative in Washington represents my views or works to pursue the issues important to me. Instead, we are burdened with Congressional Dukes and Duchesses who think they know better than the citizens they are supposed to represent.

    There must be someone. Please tell me who you are. Please stand up and tell me that you are there and that you’re willing to fight for our Constitution as it was written. Please stand up now.
    You might ask yourself what my views and issues are that I would feel so horribly disenfranchised by both major political parties. What kind of nut-job am I? Well, these briefly are the views and issues for which I seek representation :

    One, illegal immigration. I want you to stop coddling illegal immigrants and secure our borders. Close the underground tunnels.. Stop the violence and the trafficking in drugs and people. No amnesty, not again. Been there, done that, no resolution.

    P.S., I’m not a racist. This is not to be confused with legal immigration.

    Two, the STIMULUS bill. I want it repealed and I want no further funding supplied to it. We told you No, but you did it anyway. I want the remaining unfunded 95% repealed. Freeze, repeal.

    Three: Czars. I want the circumvention of our constitutional checks and balances stopped immediately. Fire the czars. No more czars. Government officials answer to the process, not to the president. Stop trampling on our Constitution, and honor it.

    Four, cap and trade. The debate on global warming is not over. There are many conflicting opinions and it is too soon for this radical legislation. Quit throwing our nation into politically-correct quicksand.

    Five, universal healthcare. I will not be rushed into another expensive decision that will burden me, my children, and grandchildren. Don’t you dare try to pass this in the middle of the night without even reading it. Slow down! Fix only what is broken — we have the best health care system in the world — and test any new program in one or two states first.

    Six, growing government control. I want states rights and sovereignty fully restored. I want less government in my life, not more. More is not better! Shrink it down. Mind your own business. You have enough to take care of with your real [Constitutional] obligations. Why don’t you start there.

    Seven, ACORN. I do not want ACORN and its affiliates in charge of our 2010 census. I want them investigated. I also do not want mandatory escrow fees contributed to them every time on every real estate deal that closes — how did they pull that one off? Stop the funding to ACORN and its affiliates pending impartial audits and investigations. I do not trust them with taking the census with our taxpayer money. I don’t trust them with any of our taxpayer money. Face up to the allegations against them and get it resolved before taxpayers get any more involved with them. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, hello. Stop protecting your political buddies. You work for us, the people. Investigate.

    Eight, redistribution of wealth. No, no, no . I work for my money. It is mine. I have always worked for people with more money than I have because they gave me jobs — and that is the only redistribution of wealth that I will support. I never got a job from a poor person! Why do you want me to hate my employers? And what do you have against shareholders making a profit?

    Nine, charitable contributions. Although I never got a job from a poor person, I have helped many in need. Charity belongs in our local communities, where we know our needs best and can use our local talent and our local resources. Butt out, please. We want to do it ourselves.

    Ten, corporate bailouts. Knock it off. Every company must sink or swim like the rest of us. If there are hard times ahead, we’ll be better off just getting into it and letting the strong survive. Quick and painful. (Have you ever ripped off a Band-Aid?) We will pull together. Great things happen in America under great hardship. Give us the chance to innovate. We cannot disappoint you more than you have disappointed us.

    Eleven, transparency and accountability. How about it? No, really, how about it? Let’s have it. Let’s say we give the buzzwords a rest and have some straight honest talk.. Please stop trying to manipulate and appease me with clever wording.. I am not the idiot you obviously take me for . Stop sneaking around and meeting in back rooms making deals with your friends. It will only be a prelude to your criminal investigation. Stop hiding things from me.

    Twelve, unprecedented quick spending. Stop it now.
    Take a breath. Listen to the people. Slow down and get some input from nonpoliticians and experts on the subject. Stop making everything an emergency. Stop speed-reading our bills into law. I am not an activist.. I am not a community organizer. Nor am I a terrorist, a militant or a violent person. I am a parent and a grandparent.. I work. I’m busy. I am busy, and I am tired. I thought we elected competent people to take care of the business of government so that we could work, raise our families, pay our bills, have a little recreation, complain about taxes, endure our hardships, pursue our personal goals, cut our lawn, wash our cars on the weekends and be responsible contributing members of society and teach our children to be the same all while living in the home of the free and land of the brave.

    I entrusted you with upholding the Constitution. I believed in the checks and balances to keep from getting far off course. What happened? You are very far off course. Do you really think I find humor in the hiring of a speed reader to unintelligently ramble all through a bill that you signed into law without knowing what it contained? I do not.
    It is a mockery of the responsibility I have entrusted to you. It is a slap in the face. I am not laughing at your arrogance. Why is it that I feel as if you would not trust me to make a single decision about my own life and how I would live it but you should expect that I should trust you with the debt that you have laid on all of us and our children. We did not want the TARP bill. We said no. We would repeal it if we could. I am sure that we still cannot. There is needless urgency and recklessness in all of your recent spending of our tax dollars.

    From my perspective, it seems that all of you have gone insane. I also know that I am far from alone in these feelings. Do you honestly feel that your current pursuits have merit to patriotic Americans? We want it to stop. We want to put the brakes on everything that is being rushed by us and forced upon us. We want our voice back. You have forced us to put our lives on hold to straighten out the mess that you are making. We will have to give up our vacations, our time spent with our children, any relaxation time we may have had and money we cannot afford to spend on bringing our concerns to Washington . Our president often knows all the right buzzwords like unsustainable. Well, no kidding. How many tens of thousands of dollars did the focus group cost to come up with that word? We don’t want your overpriced words. Stop treating us like we’re morons.

    We want all of you to stop focusing on your reelection and do the job we want done, not the job you want done or the job your party wants done. You work for us and at this rate I guarantee you not for long because we are coming. We will be heard and we will be represented.. You think we’re so busy with our lives that we will never come for you? We are the formerly silent majority, all of us who quietly work, pay taxes, obey the law, vote, save money, keep our noses to the grindstone… and we are now looking at you.

    You have awakened us, the patriotic freedom spirit so strong and so powerful that it had been sleeping too long. You have pushed us too far. Our numbers are great. They may surprise you. For every one of us who will be there, there will be hundreds more that could not come. Unlike you, we have their trust. We will represent them honestly, rest assured. They will be at the polls on voting day to usher you out of office.

    We have cancelled vacations. We will use our last few dollars saved. We will find the representation among us and a grassroots campaign will flourish. We didn’t ask for this fight. But the gloves are coming off. We do not come in violence, but we are angry. You will represent us or you will be replaced with someone who will. There are candidates among us who will rise like a Phoenix from the ashes that you have made of our constitution.

    Democrat, Republican, independent, libertarian. Understand this.. We don’t care. Political parties are meaningless to us Patriotic Americans are willing to do right by us and our Constitution, and that is all that matters to us now. We are going to fire all of you who abuse power and seek more. It is not your power. It is ours and we want it back. We entrusted you with it and you abused it. You are dishonorable. You are dishonest. As Americans we are ashamed of you. You have brought shame to us. If you are not representing the wants and needs of your constituency loudly and consistently, in spite of the objections of your party, you will be fired. Did you hear ? We no longer care about your political parties. You need to be loyal to us, not to them.. Because we will get you fired and they will not save you.

    If you do or can represent me, my issues, my views, please stand up. Make your identity known. You need to make some noise about it. Speak up. I need to know who you are. If you do not speak up, you will be herded out with the rest of the sheep and we will replace the whole damn congress if need be one by one.

    We are coming. Are we coming for you? Who do you represent? What do you represent?

    Listen. Because we are coming. We the people are coming.”

  55. v. Holland says:

    Happened to watch this movie tonight-highly recommend it

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      I’ve seen that movie several times, one of my favs., I especially like the speech Joe Pesci made.

  56. Off topic but very important … it’s 1969 all over again, Pete … the Yets in an upset 24-23 …

    caught a 24 hour virus so I am a bit delirious …

  57. Sk,
    My first post seemed to disappear. If it didn’t forgive the repeat.

    I’ve been down this road before with Mr. Flag to no avail.

    Yes, because you continue to present false and incorrect information – while continuing to believe it to be true.

    WTC 7, where the City’s emergency management was and where Mayor Guilliani’s and his staff were, had, for reasons known only to the designers, huge, fuel tanks on an upper floor.

    You do not know the reason? Perhaps that should be your first investigation then.

    They were there to fuel the electrical generators for the building.

    Since the building was reinforced to withstand nearly any disaster including a near-miss nuclear explosion, it was fitted with the ability to clean the air, supply water and power to the occupants for days.

    And you want to believe a small fire brought the building down

    These were breached by debris during the collapse of the two towers. I was there the next day and saw the damage to other close by buildings. Well, that fire burned for like seven hours before it weakened the steel enough to cause the collapse.

    In all history, this has never happened, nor since. You seem to believe it is a regular occurrence.

    Conspiracies fail like secrets, once more than two people know about them, they are not a secret anymore. Think Watergate and Iran-Contra.

    You make the same, basic, mistake as Bob

    You believe conspiracy requires secrecy.

    It does not – here is the definition.
    An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.

    Do note that no where is the word secrecy there, or any of its synonyms.

    A successful conspiracy is one that accomplishes its goal without consequences to the actors.

    A partially successful conspiracy is one that accomplishes its goal, but with consequences to the actors.

    A failed conspiracy is one that fails to achieve its goal – regardless of the consequence to the actors.

    Hope we are now on the same page regarding conspiracies.

    Some really dedicated folks there and they blew wide open anyway. Oh yes, I agree with you about the Manhattan project too. It was infiltrated with Soviet spies and fellow travelers from the beginning. Had Stalin and Hitler remained allies, the Germans would have found out.

    Very unlikely.

    Germans didn’t find out because they were an enemy. Germans who were spies were vetted very quickly.

    Russians were not as vetted because they were an ally.
    Quote:

    The Soviet Union proved more adept at espionage, primarily because it was able to play on the ideological sympathies of a significant number of Americans and British as well as foreign émigrés.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the Abwher did know but did not place a high enough priority on it.

    Pointless speculation. Perhaps the Germans were not interested as they had proven to themselves it couldn’t be done.

    On 9/11, my third son was attending the US Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point NY. From the roof of the engineering building, you can see lower Manhattan. During the fire and subsequent collapse his professor took them all up on the roof and they watched it. They then went back to class, where the professor, having some experience with the WTC design, explained what I have written above to his class.

    Obviously, that professor was wholly unfamiliar with 707’s, the building and design of WTC 1,2 and 7, and ignorant of the Newton’s laws and physics.

    Hope your son had some better teachers elsewhere.

  58. anita

    Heard you compare yourself to Kent one day. You wished your exterior matched your interior.

    Kent is a hearty and brave soul.

    I am unusual in my attire – I wear a black Australian Cowboy hat, purposely.

    (1) I look good in it. Even got wedding photos with it. So, it’s…
    (2) my symbol, like my flag.

    I was known in the Caribbean as the “White Guy in a Black hat” – in fact, that is how my wife was told to find me when I first met her at airport. I was supposed to pick her up, and she asked how to identify me.

    But I also am more likely to not stand out “too much”. I’d be likely to get my head chopped off by the evil.

    But Kent – he does not hide and is far more braver than me. Not only does he think free – he looks it too!

    I do hope I can be that brave somewhere someday, too.

    Yeah well, I don’t know what your exterior is but your interior is wonderful.

    You can find my photo on SUFA’s and USWep’s facebook.

    Question: I have only one year on you. How the hell did you jump so far ahead of me on the “woke up” scale? Was there one something that set you free?

    A lot of self-work.

    I was a Statist pure and solid. Went into the Air Force more than willing to drop bombs on Soviet scum women and children – they’d be “better dead then Red”.

    But it didn’t make sense to me either. There were all these contradictions in the beliefs I was taught.

    I was taught like everyone else – by rote ‘authority’ – that these beliefs were all true, good and moral.

    But I could not see how killing kids could be good and moral, for example. So I started questioning the whole paradigm.

    And I found massive contradictions everywhere inside it.

    So I had a choice – either I continued to live as I had, very successfully, happy and rich, I might add or do I live by my principles, and be true and honest to myself – but risk unhappiness, loss, and poverty.

    I chose the latter.

    And lost everything. And I mean everything. All my friends, all my family – they couldn’t believe I would throw all my life away on principle …”be reasonable – be pragmatic – what you are doing is ruining you!” – all my wealth; I lived in a back of a van with what few belongings I had, behind a pub frequented by ‘Ladies of the Night’ and bikers, for 4 or so months.

    My “friend” at the time – who was homeless guy and would sit with me in a park across the street and was a convicted killer on parole. He was wholly insane. A nice guy, but wholly insane.

    He would be normal but then, as best described by a story, he saw a well-dressed business man leave the pub after dropping off one of the ladies who “worked” there. The nice guy turned killer. His eyes literally changed color – his whole face changed into someone I did not physically recognize, and the look of death manifest came over him. He said – “Look at the guy, he doesn’t deserve what he has – we deserve it – let’s go and TAKE FROM HIM”.

    I reached over and put my hand on him as he was getting up and said “No, not today”. He looked at me with pure evil … and then changed back to the nice guy, his eyes returned and the face was his old face once again. He shrugged, sat down, and said “Yeah, not today”. Obviously, that business man never knew how close he came to being badly hurt or killed that night.

    I learned a lot on the streets, a lot of my haughty ideas about people and things and circumstances went out with the garbage. But I mostly learned about me.

    One must adhere to one’s own Principles with an immutable grip. It is the only route to true peace and happiness. It does not guarantee or even promise peace or happiness or anything else.

    You may lose with your principles, but you are most assuredly lost without them.

    So that’s what I did. I rebuilt my life (again). And, it turned out mostly pretty good – made my own family, do lucrative work that adds wealth to society, got new and different set of very loyal friends who are also incredibly principled too. They sought me out – I didn’t find them. But that is how it works.

    So that’s how it sorta came about – I took the hard way, but it was the way I had to go, I guess.

    • BF: I messed up & didnt “reply”. See below

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      Hope you don’t mind me butting in here, but Flag, that sounds like another part or should I say continuing saga of your life, that you started telling me a long time ago, but never got around to telling more.

      You know Flag, if you’re happy with the way your life is now, isn’t that what counts? You have a wife you love, a daughter you are very protective of, for what I can guess, and good job, good friends, and a happy home life. You had to do what you thought best for yourself at the time, and it seems like it turned out pretty good for you.

      And just for the record, don’t know what you look like without those sunglasses and hat, but yes, it does make you look good. But, you knew that already.

    • Black Flag:

      When were you in the Air Force?

      Were you a pilot and if you were a pilot what type of plane did you fly?

      Did you ever get to meet Kent? He is probably not too far from the gulch where you and JAC live. You should make the effort to meet him some day.

      Your knowledge in so many subjects is impressive. I did visit the site you provided a link to but it’s too deep for me.

    • Now, see, there’s another difference between BF and me. When I have been homeless I stayed away from cities. For that matter, I try to stay away from cities most of the time anyway. 😉

  59. And he lived happily ever after. The End. Way to go BF. Now can you please make it where I can have weekends off? ( I already know your answer ) 🙂

  60. Down here Anita…

    That’s a good question. How do you teach a pet not to be a pet? The usual way is dump said pet into the wild and let it fend for itself. Sadly, this almost always ends badly for the pet. If Black Flag is correct about sudden total collapse, most people’s lives will end badly, just like an abandoned pet’s. But if the collapse is slow but steady, most people will learn to survive on their own. I guess the only thing we can do is start getting people to think about what they would do if ‘such and such’ were to no longer be available. I’ve been doing it here. Its much easier since the powers that be haven’t been doing a very good job of keeping the grocery store stocked. People are starting to think about stocking up when they can and ordering more on the internet. They’ve also begun to notice the inflation. Its a gradual process, but the longer the shelves are empty, and replacement items more expensive than before, the more likely it is that people will begin to think about what’s going on. On this island, we’re very isolated. We don’t have cars, pay rent and utilities, or for those of us with a meal card, don’t have to buy food, though most keep snacks and such in their room. People are likely to be oblivious to what’s going so long as the go to the chowhall and get their meals, turn on the light and can see, have the AC working (life is HELL when it isn’t), and go to the shop and buy their snacks. Up until recently, the powers that be have done a very good job of providing for us ‘pets’, though we do work for our upkeep. On this island, if you don’t have a job, or are sponsored by someone who does, you’re gone. Lately though, I’ve noticed subtle changes. I can’t say for sure if its due to incompetence, or the economy in general. I suspect its due to the economy (we’ve always had plenty of incompetence to deal with) and the ever spoken of budget cuts, but I have no proof. I’m always looking for a way to get others thinking about the big picture. Its quite the up hill battle…..

    • Cyndi P:

      I know you are on some type of test range but it sounds like your company makes electronics. What do they make?

      If the SHTF, will you head back to Florida? If you get stuck on the island, can you grow food on the island? You may want to prepare a GOOD (get out of Dodge) back back and keep it handy. It wouldn’t hurt to prepare some contingency plans.

      I think everyone is watching the football game. Not many on tonight.

      • Hi Birdman,

        We don’t build anything here. Strictly testing.

        If the SHTF, I’m not sure I’d be able to get back to Florida even if I wanted to. Florida is about 7 thousand miles away! The worst case scenario is we are unable to have aircraft in and out for whatever reason. That puts us at the mercy of the host nation government, which is going to have some pretty serious problems of its own since its highly dependent on the US government. There are a couple thousand Americans on this island. We’d be living off fish and coconuts for a very long time once the supplies run out. Those of us carrying some extra pounds will probably be glad for it. There are several dozen sailboats here, and lots of experienced fishermen. TONS of coconuts year round. We’d get by foodwise. Some of us have bought vegetable seeds. I have a few bottles of water purification tablets. I’ve suggested to the few who are not in denial to do likewise. This is a military base, so I’m guessing if it all goes pear-shaped, there would be command and control and some semblence of order. I have no idea what the plan is. I’m sure there is one. I’m too far down the food chain to start asking questions. Better to remain silent and observant.

        I am executing dual purpose contignecy plans under the guise of ‘won’t this be fun, just like when we were kids’. Unfortunately, my boyfriend is in full denial, though I get the feeling he’s paying closer attention, which is a good sign. He has a small sailboat. We’ve gained some experience in the lagoon and will be heading out into the open ocean soon. It would have been this weekend, but I’m stil fighting this miserable cold and need to rest. I’ve also aquired a handline for fishing off the back of the boat. I’ve encouraged him to aquire a boat shack. We’ve purchaced a Rubber-Maid type of shed. We ordered a 4’x6′ over a year ago. Last month an 8’x6′ showed up on account of a screw up somewhere. We’ll be putting it up in a week or two, time permitting. In addition to ‘boating supplies’, we’ll (meaning me) be storing a bar-b-que, cooking utensiles, gardening stuff, and anything else that I can aquire that might be useful for living rough. I plan to start cultivating various veggies to see what I can do. I’ve learned how to make twine from coconut fibers. I’ve purchased a book on traditional Medicine of the Marshall Islands, the plants and treatments. I’ve seen examples of agroforestery on Kosrae and Pohnpei and purchased a book on agroforestry in the Pacific islands. I’ve built up my sewing supplies. I’ve also been buying silver coins. There is so much to consider and so many unknowables. Right now, my focus is on making our existance possible or at least some what comfortable should things get bad. I can envision power outs due to lack of fuel, and little in the way of food supplies. I’m thinking of getting a couple of cots for outdoor sleeping. The buildings here are hell when the AC goes out. Not only is it hot and stuffy, but the mold and mildew take over quickly. I haven’t figured the ‘story’ I’d use to expalin the cots but rest assured, when I do, I’ll probably get them ordered. If my honey figures out what I’m up to, he maybe less accomodating! 😉

        If for whatever reason we have to leave this island, I’ll have to decide whether to try making it in Florida, or head to South America where my mother’s relatives are located. I’m working on my Spanish, though not concentrating on it. I hate to leave my boyfriend. I hoping that if things get bad enough, he’ll listen to me.

        • Cyndi: Cool! Gilligan’s Island. Who is the host nation? I doubt you guys would starve being on a military base. Seems they’d at least keep you fed. Small sailboat, huh? Better invest in a long rope then shag off some frieghter or cruise ship passing by.

          • Hi Anita!

            Gilligan’s Island. HA! That’s a good one! The host nation is the Republic of the Marshall Islands.

            We probably would’t starve UNLESS a couple of things come to pass. One, we get no supplies. There aren’t a lot of military people here. Its mostly civilians, so I’m not sure we’re that high a priority. IF for whatever reason the planes stop flyong and the semi monthly resupply ship is a no-show, we’re going to feel it fast. As it is, its very common to run out of fresh produce and dairy products. There has even been an instance of no TP! The second concern, is that the neighboring island with about 20-30 thousand people should find themselves without food. Most of them are fairly poor. The place is a shanty town. The main employer is this base. My guess is that many of them would just disperse to the outer islands and live off the land with their relatives. Unfortunately, many of them have lived with the entitlement mentality their whole lives. They also seem to think that the Americans are filthy rich and have plenty to spare. Compared to how they live, I guess we do. I don’t doubt that if things got bad enough over there, they’d invade here. They did it once in the 80’s. The reef is passable at low tide. Thousands of hungry and probably PO’ed people could come over very easily if they wanted. The local’s tend to be Christian in their beliefs, so I hope that if the worst happened, there wouldn’t be much violence. I’m guessing we’d turn over what we have in the store houses. Actually, I’d be okay with that. There are still locals that know how to live off the land, and keeping good relations would be a wise move. I don’t see how we’d be able to keep the provisions if the locals decided they wanted them. We’re very out numbered. The Marshallese culture is very different than ours, and the person who shares those most is very respected. I’d say share out what we’ve got, foster the good relations, and work together. We’ve got skills that they can use, and vice versa. Hopefully, it won’t come to that.

            • Nice Cyndi. I could live there if I had to. I hate the cold here but the spring summer & fall make it worth staying. Should you ever stray into Michigan (i kmow, fat chance) you gotta room here.

              • Fat chance is right! LOL! I’m quite spoiled when it comes to weather. I freely admit. But thanks for the invite! If you feel like eating your heart out, go to this link:

                http://www.kwajaleinscubaclub.com

                Check out the photos page…..

              • Beautiful! If that kinda stuff doesn’t make you believe in God- nothing will. Saw some coral in Hawaii but nothing that was alive. I only saw the beaches at MCBH. I’ll find some living coral next time. Hope to get back there this Xmas. If not then for sure in May ’11 for my daughter’s graduation. Time for bed. 6:45 comes earlier. See ya.

  61. Peter B.

    CONGRATULATIONS

    COLTS IN THE BIG DANCE

  62. Judy Sabatini says:

    Which Portion of the Health Care Bill Should Obama Ask Senators to Strip From Final Negotiations?

    FOXNews.com

    The White House is evaluating whether to take a breather on health care or try to push for passing legislation, but is not convinced Massachusetts voters were trying to block health insurance reform in last week’s vote. Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Sunday the administration is working with leaders on Capitol Hill to try to figure out the best way to move forward. But, there are still major issues some elected leaders have with the bill.

    Share your thoughts. First, answer our question below.

    Thank you for voting!
    The Cadillac tax 1% (42 votes)
    A mandate requiring insurance 2% (110 votes)
    Abortion coverage 2% (108 votes)
    All of it 93% (4,986 votes)
    None of it 2% (86 votes)
    Other 1% (56 votes)
    Total Votes: 5,388

  63. SK,

    Here’s a video on WTC. As it states, the core supported the weight – the sides handled the lateral force of the wind.

    They also discuss how unlikely a plane, even a 747, could knock down the building.

    PS:
    “Also don’t forget that there was no planning done for a deliberate hit.”

    …LoL… as if that would make a difference, sir.

    Do you think the plane does something ‘different’ when it hits something by accident or design?

    You are obviously joking about the smoking tires. What tar?
    What fuel oil?

    Here’s the best witness to the lack of heat and fire – the firemen themselves.

    9:48 a.m.

    Ladder 15: “Battalion Fifteen to Battalion Seven.”

    Battalion Seven: “Go Ladder 15.”

    Ladder 15: “What do you got up there, Chief?”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “I’m still in boy stair 74th floor. No smoke or fire problems, walls are breached, so be careful.”

    Ladder 15: “Yeah Ten-Four, I saw that on 68. Alright, we’re on 71 we’re coming up behind you.”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “Ten-four. Six more to go.”

    Ladder 15: “Let me know when you see more fire.”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “I found a marshall on 75.”

    9:50 a.m.

    Ladder 15: “Alright Tommy. It’s imperative that you go down to the lobby command post and get some people up to 40. We got injured people up here on 70. If you make it to the lobby command post see if they can somehow get elevators past the 40th floor. We got people injured all the way up here.”

    Battalion Seven Aide: “Battaltion Seven Alpha to Seven.”

    9:52 a.m.

    Battalion Seven Chief: “Battalion Seven to Battalion Seven Alpha.”

    “Freddie, come on over. Freddie, come on over by us.”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “Battalion Seven … Ladder 15, we’ve got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones.[10-45 Serious fire related injury. CODE 1 – Victim deceased]

    Battalion Seven Chief: “South stairway Adam, South Tower.”

    Ladder 15: “Floor 78?”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.”

    Ladder 15: “Alright ten-four, we’re on our way.”

    9:52 a.m.

    Battalion Seven Aide: “Seven Alpha for Battalion Seven.”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “South tower, Steve, south tower, tell them…Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.

    “Fifteen.”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “I’m going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay.”

    Ladder 15: “Alright ten-four, we’re coming up the stairs. We’re on 77 now in the B stair, I’ll be right to you.”
    9:57 a.m.

    “Division 3 … lobby command, to the Fieldcom command post.”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “Operations Tower One to floor above Battalion Nine.”

    Battalion Nine Chief: “Battalion Nine to command post.”

    Battalion Seven Operations Tower One: “Battalion Seven Operations Tower One to Battalion Nine, need you on floor above 79. We have access stairs going up to 79, kay.”

    Battalion Nine: “Alright, I’m on my way up Orio.”

    Ladder 15 OV: “Fifteen OV to Fifteen.”

    Ladder 15: “Go ahead Fifteen OV, Battalion Seven Operations Tower One.”

    Ladder 15 OV: “Stuck in the elevator, in the elevator shaft, you’re going to have to get a difference elevator. We’re chopping through the wall to get out.”

    Battalion Seven Chief: “Radio lobby command with that Tower One.”

    9:58 a.m.

    Battalion Seven Chief: “Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.”

    (END OF TAPE)

    Didn’t someone once show me a picture of a soda straw embedded in a two by four after a tornado.

    A piece of straw can penetrate all the way through a palm tree if propelled by hurricane-force winds.

    busted

    Propelling a piece of straw at a palm tree at a distance of 50cm at 320mph (the world record for recorded wind speed at ground level), the straw only managed to penetrate the tree a quarter of an inch. Even firing at the tree while it was bent (to increase the size of the pores in the surface of the tree) at point blank range added no additional distance into the tree. A piece of reed was tested as the sturdiest organic object that might be mistaken for a piece of straw. At both ranges, the reed only managed to go about two inches into the tree. Additionally, Jamie tried a piece of piano wire, and at 50 cm, it flew not only through the tree but through a sheet of plywood on the wall behind it, partially embedding itself into the cement wall.

    Those airplane shaped holes were made in the sides of the WTC by tinfoil traveling at great speed.

    I found a great video on youtube that modeled the crash – it showed how the plane disintegrated on contact with the core – but the engines sailed right through the building (which they did).

    • SK Trynosky Sr says:

      Wonder why those people were jumping out of windows. I guess the plane’s tanks were emptied when they either landed on the LOST island to debark the passengers or when they substituted other planes.

      As I said last night, I’d like to put this all to rest you won’t convince me, I won’t convince you but…

      The video you attached used Celsius not Fahrenheit, quite different.

      Col. Grierson, I believe raided the South during the Civil War with the intention of screwing up Southern Railroads among other things. Having read a book on the subject some time ago, I seem to remember that they built fires out of railroad ties and then laid steel rails across the fires. Did they melt? No, but they deformed to the point of uselessness. So, an open fire cannot deform steel? Oh, and my Boy Scouts, over the past 25 years, have done some really amazing things with campfires too. All those westerns I watched in my misguided youth showed me an open fire could make red hot brandin’ irons pardner.

      Lastly, an experiment. Take 20 6in by 6in ceramic tiles, put them on top of each other separated by 1 in by 1 in blocks at each corner. In the center place a hollow 1 in by 1 in block. Hit the above with a 3 lb sledge (simulates the weight of another 20 tiles/blocks falling as one unit. How fast does the hammer hit the bottom tile? I learned how to suggest things like this from Mr. Wizard.

      The airplane disintegrated on contact with the core. After doing how much damage? It certainly did a bit to the exterior verticals. The engines sailed through. Of course they did, but after doing how much damage to what?

      Fire burns up.

      • Steel and Fire:

        You are inferring that engineers and architects – over the hundreds of years and millions of man years – no nothing of steel properties and/or are unable to design for it.

        You must sit up at night worried about steel building collapsing due to fire.

        Let me put your mind to rest – it happened only three times in all history – on the same day – 9/11

        This is why they overbuild to 10x the weight load – if not more. Further, the steel at the bottom was the strongest – as it carried the whole building – as described in a video – it the building collapses pancake, it will decelerate as it impacts stronger supports – but we saw ACCELERATION – exactly opposite.

        Damage to the core:
        NIST, FEMA both modeled the crash – I sent you the video; do you not look at them or am I merely wasting my time?

        In the second strike, nearly ZERO of the core was damaged – is was almost completely missed by the plane.

        Block experiment:
        Go do that – and tell me how many of the blocks disintegrated?

        Second, don’t hit with a sledge hammer – the fist of God did not slam on top of the buildings.

        Simply remove the supports of the top plate. Tell me what happens.

        Besides, I AGAIN sent you graphic calculating the pancake theory which assumed UNIFORM STRENGTH of the floors (which there was not – the bottom floors were progressively stronger) and its speed for the WTC – DO YOU NOT LOOK AT WHAT I SEND YOU or am I wasting my time trying to fill in the blanks in your understanding?

        It is frustrating, SK – when I give law of Nature FACTS and you ignore them as if they were fantasy.

        Let me know if you are hopeless and I stop wasting my time with you.

  64. I’ve never heard of Time Dollars before….

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/01/the_currency_of_social_justice.html

    January 24, 2010
    The Currency of Social Justice
    By Andie Brownlow
    What happens if the dollar becomes worthless? People on the left have given serious thought to a replacement for money itself.

    Many Americans believe that the Cloward-Piven strategy is not only what purposefully bankrupted New York, but also what the Obama administration is employing to erode capitalism in America. So what economic system is being erected in its place? Using Gesell and Keynesian monetary theories, as well as precedents by the Obama administration and Congress, we can see “social justice” transforming America through “green jobs” and our currency crisis.

    The government is contriving a green jobs boom. Last year, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act allocated over $500 million for entry-level and advanced training for jobs in the clean energy and health care industries. Job growth would be nice if it were controlled by the private sector, but government employment and regulation will dominate a “green energy” industry since the free market has not yet seen fit to produce this boom on its own.

    The resulting expense from this artificial boom will be increased taxes to support green subsidies. In addition, the current fuel industry will be decimated by cap-and-trade legislation designed to skyrocket the cost of traditional energy methods. Our economy is not undergoing a recovery; it’s undergoing restructuring to remove the element of free-market capitalism.

    As government jobs have now surpassed goods-producing jobs, the new “green economy” jobs will start to absorb most of the rising U.S. unemployment. Government-subsidized green jobs will be centered on alternative energy production and retrofitting homes and businesses for energy efficiency.

    As Van Jones articulates, “You cannot beat global warming unless you green the cities, you cannot green the cities unless you green the ghetto and you cannot green the ghetto in 2009 without giving Pookie a job.” Common sense says that “Pookie” can’t be saved by a green job if “Pookie” isn’t inclined to working in general. But let’s humor the thought anyway. Van Jones also says that in a green economy, there will be “no more throw-away people.” That phrase is also the title of a book written by a pioneer in the social justice movement, Edgar Cahn.

    Mr. Cahn is the founder of an organization called TimeBanks USA. TimeBanks are used as private entities who work with government agencies, such as Social Services, to inject the concept of Co-production into communities. The goal of Cahn’s version of Co-production is to “redefine work” through “social justice” and the “core economy.” It’s also a way through philanthropy and government funding to intermingle our monetary economy with the low-valued skills of the “core economy” in order to have an equalizing effect on wages. Their system is based on a mutual credit, non-negotiable and non-interest bearing form of currency called “Time Dollars.”

    So what does all of this mean for a fundamental transformation of America? In the coming months, we’ll have the largest government employment sector in American history and a labor market ominously beholden to the government for its survival. Common sense says that if the government’s income relies on taxes from the private sector, then when those jobs are gone, so is the government’s revenue to pay off its massive debts. This concept is now tritely referred to as “unsustainable.”

    For those on whom the consequences of “unsustainable” aren’t lost, it most likely means the collapse of our currency. As California proved last year, the government is not above IOUs. But what about a full-on economic collapse of our currency, where IOUs are no longer worth the paper they’re written on?

    When the government is bankrupt and on the hook for the majority of U.S. employment, it can’t just neglect government salaries for citizens. In a panic situation, otherwise considered ideal conditions by the Obama administration, there would need to be an economic system in place not based on our devalued currency.

    For the restructuring of our economy to bring about social justice and economic equality, a non-negotiable currency unhindered by zero-bound interest rates must be put in place. Here’s one scenario in which an alternative currency could be introduced into our economy: Let’s use government-sanctioned Time Dollars as an outline for what a new domestic currency might look like, given the goals of the political left. I’ll call this fictitious currency “Credits.”

    Fiat-backed IOUs would be replaced by time-backed salary Credits. If you worked forty hours this week at a government job, you get forty Credits. Those in the private sector who are given government subsidies or resell subsidized products would most likely be required by law to accept Credits as legal tender. The rest of the private sector, fearing loss of market share and further devaluation of the dollar, would also begin accepting and using Credits. (Initially, Credits would probably be considered “negotiable” as they’d be used in exchange for goods offered by the competitive free market. Later, government rations and price controls would rectify this “problem.”)

    Credits would be advocated to the public as inflation-resistance because they would be based on an electronic credit/debit system and considered always in “sufficient” supply. It would also be non-interest-bearing, meaning the currency carries no investment potential. This discourages hoarding and makes savings accounts obsolete because there is no possibility for interest accrual.

    To support existing entitlements such as welfare, disability, and retirement, there is a potential for negative interest on Credits. It would serve as an equivalent of “stamp scrip” from the 1930s to keep the currency valid. This would also discourage hoarding and provide government revenue for further redistribution of wealth.

    An example of negative interest: The government applies a monthly 1% “tax/stamp scrip” on the balance of your Credit account. That tax would go to support federal entitlement programs and eventually eat away at your “savings” unless you spend them. It also prevents you from saving for your own retirement, and creates perpetual dependency on the federal government.

    The key to achieving social justice is the non-negotiable aspect of Credits; an hour of work is valued the same no matter the job, not just the person. The slogan that holds down minorities and kills ambition, “equal work for equal pay,” is easily achieved by Uncle Sam becoming America’s employer. We’re well on our way.

    Whatever is left of the private sector could be taxed for “windfall profits” above whatever the government deems equivalent to full-time government employment. This wouldn’t be much different from FDR’s proposed 100% tax rate on the wealthy during WWII. This will successfully push out the private sector by taking away the ability to earn more than the maximum income allowance for all citizens. From there your imagination can take over, but there it is: social justice.

    All of this sounds wildly conspiratorial until you notice each point is not without precedent. Not all complementary currencies are this severe in restraints, but I wanted to highlight how some of the Marxist goals prevalent in the Obama administration could be achieved through a currency change.

    I recommend reading about complementary currency systems such as WIR, Time Dollars, and Ithaca Hours, as well as radicalized political economics, Co-production and TimeBanks.

    • Cyndi: You never heard of Time Dollars before because they’re making up the rules as they go. I don’t know much but I know that much. They are one step ahead. Feel sorry for the ones who dont even know what they dont know.

  65. Okay, Looks like everyone’s gone to bed and I’m stuck here in another time zone. So I’m looking at Hillbuzz and what do I find? It seems the the boyz and I have something in common. We all believe that the $550 Billion dollars that disappeared from the stock market on 17 Sept 2008 was done deliberately to get Dear Reader installed into office….

    http://hillbuzz.org/2010/01/21/question-of-the-day-what-do-you-know-about-george-soros-secretary-of-state-project/

    What do you know about George Soros’ Secretary of State project, where Soros has been funding Leftists to take over the Secretarys of State offices across the nation (example: Jennifer Brunner in Ohio), so that these sympathetic puppets will be in office overseeing elections…where they are guaranteed to look the other way when ACORN and the SEIU get up to their voter fraud, election tampering, and intimidation efforts.

    We are more motivated than ever to go after these people head on, and to defeat George Soros at every turn.

    Don’t think for a moment we don’t know what we are up against. Soros is a billionaire. He crashed the economy last September to guarantee Dr. Utopia a win. His minions are legion, and they will stop at nothing in service of the Leftist agenda.

    But, these people, in the last week, have taken the fight to us personally, and so, at this point, we figure we have nothing left to lose in ratcheting up our efforts against them.

    The first step in this process is to get informed…to gather information…to determine exactly what Soros is up to, figure out what the Left is really doing, then find ways to cut off their funding, demoralize their troll and goblin armies, and run enough interference against them that they fail again and again across all 50 states.

    Together, the unlikely coalition of strange bedfellows who come to this site could have invaluable insight into what needs to be done to take Soros and the Left down.

    Clearly, we’ve been effective in what we’ve collectively done, because the Left was so upset over all of us helping Scott Brown win in Massachusetts that they came after us personally here this week “to teach us a lesson”.

    Well, the lesson we learned is that we need to work even harder at defeating the Left and so alienating them from the general public that Liberals won’t be able to get elected dog catcher for the next 30 years.

    We’re willing to take the heat for all of this. We’re already exposed and attacked, so putting ourselves out there some more doesn’t phase us anymore. If they ever go to the extrem of actually killing us, as they threaten, then we hope someone else out there reading this stands up and takes our place. Because we are not going to back down.

    Just the opposite: we are going to work harder than ever to expose these lunatics and what they are doing behind the scenes.

    “The Secretary of State Project” Soros launched in 2000 seems like a great place to start. Let’s undo whatever progress he made with this, and ruin one of Soros’ super villain plans to destroy America.

    This is the way to stop these people…one scheme at a time…dragging into sunlight what they try desperately to keep hidden in trollish shadows.

    • Cyndi,
      Don’t despair – remember, California is on it’s way to keep you company. 😉

      And just to clarify, it wasn’t the stock market, it was money market funds that Soros personally withdrew $550 Billion from to get Dr. Utopia installed into office to service the Leftist agenda and his legion of minions.

  66. SK,

    Tonkin Gulf? first attack was probably real, second was not. The conspiracy failed, we know about it. We have talked to the people at the radar sets. Had the media done their job back then, we would have known it sooner.

    Boy you are far behind.

    Gulf of Tonkin.
    In 2005, an internal National Security Agency historical study was declassified; it concluded[3] that USS Maddox had engaged the North Vietnamese on August 2, but that there may not have been any North Vietnamese vessels present during the engagement of August 4. The report stated

    [I]t is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night. […] In truth, Hanoi’s navy was engaged in nothing that night but the salvage of two of the boats damaged on August 2.[4]

    • SK, Bob and T-Ray,

      So analyzing our discussion, I’ve come to realize this:

      Proponents of the official theory (or any other theory that does not include demolition) jump around between multiple – but incompatible theories – in explaining the collapse.

      When one theory fails to explain something, they move to another, then another, then another. In the end, they cannot explain the whole sequence and collapse within any theory that meets the test of laws of nature and observational fact.

      The only theory that explains the whole collapse is demolition.

      Those that attack this theory do not attack it with physics, laws of Nature, observation evidence, etc. — but solely on the conspiracy angle – that is, they cannot conceive of how such explosives could have been planted, or how knowledge of such could not have escaped.

      In other words, they accept the physics and laws of nature that offer demolition as the theory – but cannot accept the implication that they fantasize in their own minds – that it must have been a ‘conspiracy’.

      It is interesting that the very people who attack conspiracy theories are the ones who envision them in the first place.

  67. For OpEdNews: Dean Hartwell – Writer

    In the days of old, the king would kill someone who told him something he did not want to hear. But few people today would even contemplate that.

    And bad news is all around us. We have wars that have dragged on for years, we have an economy that is sputtering at best and we are constantly reminded that many of our leaders have moral shortcomings.

    No one shoots the messenger over anything like this.

    But when the subject concerns facts about government involvement in criminal activities, the reaction of much of the public and the media is perhaps even worse: the messenger gets ridiculed.

    Recently, Stephen Colbert of the Colbert Nation brought 9/11 Commission member John Farmer on his show to discuss his new book. Right away, Colbert asked in a facetious tone whether there are any conspiracy theories in the book, like “Dick Cheney as a flight attendant.” Predictably, Farmer assured Colbert that there were no such theories.

    Oliver Stone’s 1991 movie JFK, which supports conspiracy theory in the John Kennedy assassination, was attacked by media critics before it even came out. This response contrasts sharply with the admiration the media gave the Warren Report and its support of the official lone gunman theory. Many of the critics did not actually read the report.

    When I discuss the assassination of Robert Kennedy, I frequently mention facts such as an audiotape of the event that indicates that thirteen shots were fired, five more than the number of bullets in convicted assassin Sirhan Sirhan’s gun. I also point out that Sirhan was never seen within two feet of Kennedy, whereas the coroner said the fatal shot was fired at point-blank range. Eyes start to roll and I am called a “conspiracy nut.”

    The typical response I get in giving factual support for conspiracy theory is for people to give the benefit of every possible doubt to the official (non-conspiracy) theory. “Sure, I hear what you say, but the audiotape and eyewitnesses could have been wrong.”

    There is nothing wrong with speculation and exploring alternate hypothesis. This is frequently how theories get started. But those who use speculation (such as thirteen mistaken eyewitnesses) to prove a theory only succeed in keeping their view viable in their own minds. If people could be convicted of crimes based on this way of thinking, we’d all be in jail!

    Does anyone believe our government never does anything wrong? I doubt it. The blind eye that many turn as to the facts of events like 9/11 likely stems from the refusal to confront the horror of something that has power over us.

    As one who supports certain conspiracy theories, I never recommend forming any conclusion until one has accounted for all relevant facts. And therein lies the problem: critics of anything that smacks of conspiracy decline to consider or counter the message. They shoot the messenger (and any chance of a reasonable discussion) instead.

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