Tuesday Night Open Mic for February 2, 2010

Tuesday night open mic comes to us yet again, and to be honest I am somewhat surprised that I have even made it to this point in the week! Some health scares (a nice way to describe what this weekend was like) for Mrs. Weapon had us spending the majority of the last 4 or 5 days either in an emergency room, a doctor’s office, or at home with my watching over her. Fortunately, I had written Monday morning’s article on Friday night so I didn’t have to worry about writing ( I simply wouldn’t have written). And now as things settle into a more stable environment for a bit, I find myself exhausted and really just wanting to sleep for about 2 days. But alas! There is writing to be done and subjects to be covered! So here I am, as dedicated as ever, with my beautiful wife soundly sleeping and feeling much better. An interesting aray of topics for tonight. This week we get to discuss the BCS, China threatening Obama, our shrinking democracy, and of all things… Keith Olbermann :shudder:


  1. USWeapon Topic #1

    BCS under scrutiny from Capitol Hill

    The Obama administration is considering several steps that would review the legality of the controversial Bowl Championship Series, the Justice Department said in a letter Friday to a senator who had asked for an antitrust review.

    In the letter to Sen. Orrin Hatch, obtained by The Associated Press, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich wrote that the Justice Department is reviewing Hatch’s request and other materials to determine whether to open an investigation into whether the BCS violates antitrust laws.

    “Importantly, and in addition, the administration also is exploring other options that might be available to address concerns with the college football postseason,” Weich wrote, including asking the Federal Trade Commission to review the legality of the BCS under consumer protection laws.

    Several lawmakers and many critics want the BCS to switch to a playoff system, rather than the ratings system it uses to determine the teams that play in the championship game.

    “The administration shares your belief that the current lack of a college football national championship playoff with respect to the highest division of college football … raises important questions affecting millions of fans, colleges and universities, players and other interested parties,” Weich wrote.

    Read the rest of the article from ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4870657

    Talk about an over-reaching government. I know that many of us are not particularly fond of the college football Bowl Championship Series system. As a Nittany Lion, I don’t like it one bit. Remember, Penn State has already gone undefeated and not played for a national championship 4 times. And unlike Florida and Texas, if we lose a game our chances are over. But that is beside the point. The BCS is a flawed system, but it is the system in place.

    And now we have a President who doesn’t like the system so he is going to use his position as President to attempt to force College Football to change to something more in line with his version of fairness (not surprising since his version of fairness is what he wants to change everything to). And to be honest, as much as I despise the BCS and would love to see a playoff system, I am completely opposed to the idea of the government having anything to do with it. This, my friends, is populist leadership at its best. Whatever government can control under the guise of populist appeasement they will stick their grubby paws into it.

    And you know what, the federal government has absolutely no business sticking its nose into college football. This is a fine example of how far out of its purpose government can reach. Show me anything in the Constitution that says the federal government has a right to determine how college football’s national champion is determined.

    This obviously isn’t their first foray into the world of professional sports. We all remember the Congressional hearings on steroids in baseball. I actually would have become a Jose Canseco FAN if he had stood up, looked at those members of Congress and said, “Hey jackasses, how about you worry about fixing your inept government, and we’ll worry about fixing baseball.” But alas, he let me down.

    Professional and college sports are absolutely not part of government’s “areas”. And in a time when we face economic turmoil, and all the troubles the Messiah told us about during the state of the union address, I am more than a little annoyed to even hear that his administration is wasting taxpayer money and manpower to investigate whether college football should use a different process for crowning a national champion.

    And for those who are so fed up with the BCS that you might actually support government getting involved, remember the old slogan, “If you think our problems are bad, wait until you see our solutions.”

    • USW….even as a Texas fan and grad….I DESPISE the BCS. Hate it almost as much as I hate Jane Fonda….I want a true playoff system. However, the BCS will become my best friend if government sticks its fat, obtrusive, brown nose in it.

      Other than that…I have no opinion.

      Have a nice day. 🙂

      • I’m a big sports fan and there are definitely inconsistencies with the BCS, but none of the issues need to be dealt with by government.

    • I haven’t looked up the antitrust idea recently, but could college football even have a monopoly since they are “not for profit”?

    • Agreed. This is absolutely ridiculous. If they go on with this then I demand they step in to get rid of Al Davis.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      So with all the money involved in college athletics – especially football – you’re expecting them to change organically? Let me know how/when that works out.

      • Hi Ray…..of course it is all about money. Always has been and the BCS does not deny it. I saw a very good interview some weeks back on the BCS rating system with a BCS board member (cannot remember his name) and he was very up front with his answer. The National Championship and BCS ratings will always be done with the “draw” in mind and TV ratings. It is not about who is really best…it is and has always been about ratings and draw. We recognize there will be times that the best team will never play for the Championship. I am waiting for the time when a 10-2 or 10-3 team will play for the championship over undefeated teams simply because of the draw of the crowds and the TV ratings. It will happen.

        Those were his words as close as I could remember them. Chancellors of the large colleges and the college divisions all got together and comprised this. So….it is the system and there will never be a true playoff system. At least not now. The BCS contract is set for another three years, I think.

        As to anti trust…interesting look but I do not think it will fly at all.

        But, what the hell, what do I know.

        Have a great one, my friend.


      • Ray,

        Then the question for you is:

        Is there ANYTHING that you wouldn’t be OK with government getting involved in. After all, if it exists in America, you can tie money to it somehow.


        • Ray Hawkins says:
          • Very Funny clip and well done as an answer to me. The point is that College football’s national championship is so far out of the scope of what government is intended to do, and is so far out of the scope of what should be important right now. If you support government intervention in this area, I can’t imagine where you could not find justification for everything else. That is a scary proposition.

            Waynesboro Little League was a place where money was a factor. Should the federal government get involved there too.

    • Bottom Line says:

      What’s next?

      Are they gonna start wiping our asses for us?

      Are they gonna set police on patrol in the grocery stores to make insure we’re all eating a balanced diet?

      Sometimes I feel like I’m in the “Twilight Zone”, …or in some sort of alternate reality that I will awake from and know that it was all a bad dream.


      • Shhhhh…don’t give ’em any ideas! 😆

      • Displaced Okie says:


        Can you imagine what that would do to the price of toilet paper….. 🙂

        Stay safe and live Free,
        Displaced Okie

        • Bottom Line says:


          I can just see it….”The Department Of Homeland Anal Hygiene”

          We could even have “Victory” brand toilet paper, a constitutional amendment, and a 20% tax increase.

          • I said SSSHHHHHHH….. 😉

            Kwaj is having its first Film Festival in April. I’ve already written the script for my entry. Its a bogus commercial for THINK! Organic Anal Area Cleansing Wipes. As you may have guessed, its a toilet paper replacement. I’ll give you three guesses as to what the product is, but the first two don’t count! 😆

            I hope my all volunteer crew is still interested when they get back on island. If we actually get it made, I’ll have to post it somewhere for you guys!

            • Bottom Line says:


              You crack me up Cyndi.

              Good thing I just peed a few minutes ago, as I would have peed in my pants from laughing.

              You’re too much.

              • Glad to do my part 🙂

                Lot’s of people think I’m too much. Hmmmm…I wonder why. Not! LOL!

  2. USWeapon Topic #2

    China Threatens Obama Over Dalai Lama Meeting

    Any meeting between President Barack Obama and the Dalai Lama would harm bilateral relations, China warned Tuesday while repeating Beijing’s refusal to discuss Tibet’s status with the spiritual leader’s envoys.

    An Obama meeting with the Tibetan spiritual leader would “seriously undermine the political foundation of Sino-U.S. relations,” said Zhu Weiqun, executive deputy head of the Communist Party’s United Front Work Department in charge of recent talks with the Dalai Lama’s representatives.

    Zhu was speaking at a news conference where he said Chinese officials told the envoys that Beijing would not make any compromises on its sovereignty over the Himalayan region and that both sides’ views remained “sharply divided.”

    The warning to Obama comes after signals from U.S. officials in recent weeks that Obama might soon meet the exiled Tibetan leader — something Chinese officials are keen to avoid before President Hu Jintao travels to Washington, possibly in April.

    Zhu said any arguments that the Dalai Lama was just a religious figure were wrong, calling the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize laureate the “head of a separatist group.”

    Read the rest of the article at Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/02/china-threatens-obama-dalai-lama-meeting/%20/?test=latestnews

    I read this and thought to myself, “screw China if they don’t like it.” I mean after all, when it comes to the point where countries are saying that our relationship is strained if we even talk to this particular person, we are living in a land of make-believe. Of course, China is not alone in this sentiment. The US has over and over attempted to dictate to other countries of the world who they should talk to, support, trade with, or support an embargo of.

    What baffles the mind is that this is the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama. I have to be honest, and those who know me are aware of this fact, when I am asked if there is anyone in the world that I would like to meet, he is my answer. I revere the man for what he is, what he represents, and the simplicity with which he views the world. He does not contradict himself. He does not compromise on his values. He is not like so many other hypocritical leaders of religious communities. He is the Buddhist version of the Pope!

    On the other side of that, since 1959 the Dalai Lama has, in fact, been the recognized leader of the Tibetan government in exile. As such, I understand China’s dislike for him, but surely, they cannot object to the idea of our President simply meeting with the man and talking with him? Alas, they do. To me, it is kind of like when you and your sibling do something wrong and you know your parents are going to find out. You both want to be the one to sell your version of the story first and then force the other to disprove your version of events. China wants first crack and America’s new Messiah, before the Dalai Lama has the chance to persuade the President that his plight and struggle are virtuous and right.

    I say that if the President were to heed the threats from China, I would consider it one of his weakest moments as President. We don’t bend to China’s threats.

    On the other hand, they do have a sizable portion of our economic prosperity in their hands. So what say you? Should the President follow through with meeting the Dalai Lama as planned or should he postpone such a meeting until after meeting with the Chinese government leaders in April? Cater to those who hold something over our head or ignore them and stand firm on the fact that we are world leaders, not world followers.

    As a side discussion, I am interested in hearing other folks opinion on the Dalai Lama in general. I have offered my thoughts on him, but I am interested in other’s thoughts as well.

    • I think Dear Reader will meet with the DL. It’ll play well at home, and piss off the Chinese government who will probably retaliate in some economic fashoin. This will hurt the economy even more which is what Dear Reader wants (never let a good crisis go to waste). Not only does it help his agenda of bringing America to her knees so he can ‘raise her up’, he has a new boogy-man to blame since its getting harder and harder for his follwoers to believe all this is Bush’s fault.

      • It almost seems as if Obama is seeking crisis’s.


        BEIJING — China’s foreign minister warned that U.S. plans to sell $6.4 billion of arms to Taiwan will harm Chinese efforts to unify peacefully with the island, the ministry said Sunday, after China suspended U.S. military exchanges and threatened unprecedented sanctions against American defense companies.

        Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said the planned weapons sales to self-governing Taiwan, which Beijing claims as its territory, were a “crude interference in China’s internal affairs” and would hurt its national security.

        Beijing’s strong response to Friday’s U.S. announcement of the weapons sales, while not entirely unexpected, was swift and indicated that it plans to put up a greater challenge than usual as it deals with the most sensitive topic in U.S.-China relations.

        “This is the strongest reaction we’ve seen so far in recent years,” said Stephanie T. Kleine-Ahlbrandt, northeast Asia project director for the International Crisis Group. “China is really looking to see what kind of reaction it’s going to receive” from President Barack Obama, she said.

        China’s Defense Ministry said the arms sales would cause “severe harm” to overall U.S.-China cooperation. Vice ministerial-level talks on arms control and strategic security were postponed.

        • Hi LOI,

          I have felt for sometime, that Dear Reader has been seeking ‘crisis’ since the begining of his reign. Hearing the audio clip of Rahm Emmanual saying you never want to let a good crisis go to waste because you do thinks that you wouldn’t normally be able to do, convinced me of the nature of this bunch in government. Most folks think our ‘leaders’ are just incompetent, and that’s how we are in mess we’re in. I feel we’re in this mess because that’s exactly where our leaders want us.

    • Maybe china thinks we will sell blackhawks to the Dalai Lama too.

    • USW…..the DL and Pope do not make my top ten list of anything. That said….China has its hooks into us so deeply, I do not really care what they think. And, if they wish to try to destroy the US economy…I say…go ahead. If getting back to fiscal responsibility means that we take it on the chin for awhile….I say let’s do it. I do not subscribe to the theory that the US will die on the vine. We will not.

      So….talk to the DL or not talk to him, I do not give a rip one way or the other but do not “kow tow” to China under any circumstance….NONE. Let them try to destroy the dollar. We probably need that to jerk this country back into some semblance of reality and elect people who give a damn about country. This country will not die….it will rebound and be stronger than ever and, despite doomsayer prophecy, this is still and will be the best country in the world.

      So…to China…go into your own jackyard and backoff. As Cochise once said: “Cochise has spoke”….. D13 has also.

      Other than that, I have no opinion. 🙂

    • Bottom Line says:

      China should be ignored.

      Do people let the bank decide who visits for dinner because they loaned money for their house?

      If BHO doesn’t ignore China on this, he’a a punk.

  3. USWeapon Topic #3

    Our Incredible Shrinking Democracy

    I wish conservatives would stop complaining about big government and start worrying about the real problem — small democracy. I wish we’d all worry more about our incredible shrinking democracy.

    It seems as if more and more decisions that should be made democratically are being shunted off somewhere to a few people who make them in back rooms. Which programs should be cut, which entitlements pared back, and what taxes raised in order to reduce the long-term budget deficit? Hmmm. Let’s convene a commission and have them decide.

    Commissions are a default mechanism when politicians want to hand off difficult issues to “experts.” But reducing the long-term budget deficit has almost nothing to do with expertise. It’s about our nations’ values and priorities. Nothing could be more central to the democratic process.

    Democracy requires at least three things: (1) Important decisions are made in the open. (2) The public and its representatives have an opportunity to debate them, so the decisions can be revised in light of what the public discovers and wants. And (3) those who make the big decisions are accountable to voters.

    But these principles are in retreat, and I say this not just because of the proposed deficit commission.

    Read the rest of the article by former Labor Secretary Robert Reich at the Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/our-incredible-shrinking_b_446748.html

    I read this article over at the Huffington Post. While I am diametrically opposed to the author on many different issues, I felt like the premise of his post was correct. Our Democracy is shrinking. This would be one of those articles that deals with what the federal government actually is instead of what we would like it to be.

    I ask everyone to go over and read the entire article and then come back and post your thoughts on what he is talking about. I will share as the day goes along.

    • Isn’t Democracy really more like mob rule? Wasn’t it Ben Franklin who said “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding on what to have for lunch”? Isn’t the US a Republic? I’m very angry with anyone who voted for O. They were warned that putting him in power was a huge mistake, and all they did was scream “RACIST” and other insults. So, a year into Hope and Change, they expect conservatives to worry about a shrinking democracy? Hey Leftists, you, the ‘majority’ got exactly what you asked for, now quit yer bitchin’ and fix it yourselves! You people are getting just what you desrve. Enjoy your Hope and Change.

    • PeterB in Indianapolis says:


      We are not supposed to HAVE a “democracy”! We are supposed to have a Constitutional Republic. Certainly, many elements of the repbulic are “democratic”, but it is certainly not a “democracy”, or at least it isn’t supposed to be! Some people may think I am arguing semantics, but in reality, I am not.

      That being said, liberty and freedom in our Republic is definitely “shrinking”, which is what should have been pointed out in the article.

      People are basically missing the bus completely on this issue. It is not “democracy” which we should be worrying about, it is Liberty and Freedom. Sometimes it is important to use the correct words, and to use them correctly.

      • Hence my statement, Peter, that this is a situation where we are discussing what is rather than what should be or what we would like it to be. The reality is that the system of government that we are supposed to have is a Republic, and despite his title, he is discussing it in some correct ways (representatives answering to their constituents).

  4. USWeapon Topic #4

    I figured I would try to do a little something different, so I am attempting to import a video to the comment, which I have seen several of you do, but I have yet to figure out how you do it! The following is a 5 minute clip from MSNBC, specifically Keith Olbermann. I will let you watch it and then I will give you my thoughts. If I figure it out, you will see the video box below. If I don’t, there will simply be a link to the video from MSNBC.


    Let me first say this: Much like Ray’s absolute disdain for Sarah Palin, I have the same for Keith Olbermann, and because of the platform they give this piece of doo doo, for MSNBC as well. I find Olbermann to be an outright liar, a petty partisan hack, and someone who absolutely twists every single thing that he can to paint those on the other side of any issue in the worst possible way without a shred of journalistic integrity. I have yet to see him be honest in any single clip that I have ever watched of him, which is literally over a hundred at this point.

    While the subject is one that feel like is a one sided version of the story, I don’t disagree that Luntz’ leaked plan is wrong. What bothers me about watching this clip, and this is true nearly every single time that I see Olbermann, is the sheer amount of hypocrisy that just oozes from Olbermann. Begin with the statement, “As for lies, we know they work whether created by Luntz, or Sarah Palin, or Michelle Bachman, or insert name here, Betsy McCoy.” Just the gall that he could say that, given his propensity for lying every single time he opens his mouth. It is interesting given he is a guy that they actually post the top ten Olbermann lies about every year.

    This guy has lied about his past, about his recent comments (despite there being video, much like Beck), about anything and everything Republican. He lied about his ratings. He lied when he said he never attacks people’s children (he did attack Steve Doocy’s child). He lied about what the tea parties were about. He lies about the stances of GOP politicians. He invented and presented a made up checklist of rules for Presidential pardons, leading viewers to believe they actually existed. He constantly, over and over, every single day, changes the wording of what others say in order to paint them the way he wants them viewed. He has been one of the absolute largest voices driving this push to deem every Obama critic as a racist.

    Olbermann is Glen Beck on steroids. At least Beck gives you the actual quote before taking you down an imaginary road leading to a vast conspiracy. Olbermann simply lies about what was said. I can do no better than the folks at Olbermann Watch, a site dedicated to exposing Olbermann’s hundreds (literally) of annual lies. They said:

    There are lots of ways to lie and Keith Olbermann is an expert in just about all of them – the prevarication, the fib, the whopper, the white lie, misleading through omission, manufacturing quotations, deceit, dishonesty, the “bait and switch”, evasion, euphemism, exaggeration, changing the subject, leading astray, silence, false empathy, pretense, pomposity, pretense.

    If it’s a form of lying Keith has done it and his expertise in the finer points is on full display each night on Countdown.

    I think that Olbermann is as bad an influence in America as possible. That he is treated in any way as a journalist is appalling. That anyone would accept that this man has a single ounce of integrity is laughable. And he is a large part of the reason why MSNBC is in the tank. Along with Chris Matthews, he is a signpost to America that MSNBC is anything but a news channel.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      Was this supposed to be about Luntz or the griping equivalent of trying to pass a platter of burritos you just ate? 🙂

      I find Keith to be funny, entertaining and most of the time factual. Have read the Olber-watch site and find it largely lacking in substantive proof for their claims.

      So tell please – in the video you linked – what exactly were the ‘pants on fire’ moments?

      • Ray

        This is a typical manipulation piece. To NOT be offended you have to take everything the host AND his guest say as TRUTH.

        Yet the guest does exactly what Luntz does. He polls and he formulates strategies and talking points. The comments he makes about he R’s and Luntz is just exactly that. The opposit of Luntz but the same game.

        Olberman has claims about what the legislation will do and uses that to call Luntz a lier. Don’t know about you but nobody I know has see any ACTUAL legislation or proposed legislation. Just vague talking points from the white house.

        Olberman stopped being funny when he was fired from his sports gig. Back then I used to look forward to his show. Never did hear exactly what got him fired from ESPN.

        Until later.


        • JAC wrote: “Olberman stopped being funny when he was fired from his sports gig. Back then I used to look forward to his show. Never did hear exactly what got him fired from ESPN.”

          BINGO, brother. I used to love his sports antics. Now I hate the guy so much (and I probably agree with most of his politics–but I find him to be a self-righteous asshole who conveniently takes Churchill (for instance) way out of context.

          I actually ranted about him and those like him today on my site (in regards to attacks on McCain from the left — instead of the Democratic left attacking those with the power to change things (their own party), they chose to fingerpoint and republican bash.

          At this point it would be difficult not to knock a few of Olbermann’s teeth out if I passed him in the street. The SNL skit on him by Ben Aflick was spot on.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          JAC – Olbermann loves to pontificate – no doubt about that. I find him very valuable in keeping the flamers from the right somewhat honest. If you remove his spin (and yes, I will time to time just change the channel) there is some kernels worth gnawing on.

          “To NOT be offended you have to take everything the host AND his guest say as TRUTH.” – I’ll take umbrage with that – I love listening/watching comedy – they will often stretch/side-step the truth in telling a story. I can find it funny, find it to have some truth and not be offended. Ease the sensitivity meter down a notch on this.

      • I would say it is a little of both. I was not attempting to discuss Luntz and his strategies, which I think was evident. I don’t like Luntz any more than you do. I acknowledged this in stating I think despite my hating the messenger, I feel Luntz is wrong.

        But how you can even watch him and say “what lies are you talking about” leaves me aghast. Let’s start with his claims about the upcoming legislation, which are nothing more than his characterization of what they will do. We haven’t seen any legislation, so we cannot claim what it will or won’t do. But Olbermann paints a different picture altogether. He makes it appear that he has read said legislation and here are the very real facts about the good it is as opposed to the viscous lies from the Republicans. As the piece noted, he uses every form of lying, misdirection, and omission possible. Watch that video again with that as your premise. If you can’t see what I am talking about, then I am unsure that you are capable of seeing the reality. I can see Beck’s lies and his misdirection. Now the test is whether you can see that Olbermann is a bigger version of the same.


        • Best to you and your wife, USW.

          Hope all is well.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          @USW – I’m simply asking you to follow your own rules – what in the video do you have issue with in terms of truth? Simply calling him a liar does make it so.

          In fact, you state that “We haven’t seen any legislation, so we cannot claim what it will or won’t do”

          About a minute in, Olbermann refers to the Consumer Financial Protection Agency – here is the link to the House Bill for the CFPA: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-3126

          I’m sure we can find other bills or subsections of other bills referring to similar reform. Suggesting Olbermann just made it all up is deceptive on your part sir. You’re better than that.

          • Alrighty Ray, I finally have some time to answer….

            Let’s start with the very first sentence, where Olbermann claimed Luntz’ memo told opponents of the Financial Reform Legislation to “Lie about it”. He does no such thing. I read the memo. He points out the fact that Americans are against lobbyist writing bills, government bureaucracy, and they don’t believe in the government’s ability to effectively fix the problem. So he points out that the bill goes against the publics will on these issues and gives language to use to point it out. He points out that Americans want some form of a fix, and the GOP must embrace that while pointing out how this bill will not do so. You may not like Luntz’ tactics or his plans, but he never told Republicans to lie. He told them how to frame the bill effectively against public desires. Olbermann’s entire rant about it being a memo telling Republicans to lie was in fact the biggest lie being told.

            He later tells how Luntz frames the issue as punishment for taxpayers and reward for financial companies, even though the opposite is true. Another lie from Olbermann, as the bill does do a bit of both. Olbermann is relying on you to never read the actual bill and accept what he is telling you about it.

            Next he talks about how predatory lending practices nearly brought down the economy. Another lie, as consumers taking loans they shouldn’t have taken is the issue, not the banks offering bad loans. Government instituted those predatory practices, thanks to Barney and Chris and all the other jackasses in Congress. Yet Olbermann attempts to paint a picture of all blame going to financial institutions. Simply not true. Not false, but his omission of any culpability other than the financial institutions is qualifying as it is a lie by omission.

            He then points out that Republicans simply lie, naming off a littany of GOP figures, while failing to mention the lies of Pelosi, Reid, etc. Again, he is spouting partisan BS, leading viewers to believe that the GOP lies while the Dems don’t. At least I am honest enough to say they ALL lie.

            Then there is a little chart showing a poll taken by the Daily Kos of all groups. The most far left piece of crap site in America, and it is presented as an honest summary of Republican beliefs in America.

            That’s just the first minute and a half Ray. Do you really want me to go on?

            Olbermann is a liar, a guy who does it in every way possible. I don’t think he is alone by any stretch. But he is by far the worst offender on a major “news” channel. You can watch him for comedy if you like, but many watch him and believe he is being honest and forthright. He is anything but that.

            You know, it is interesting that when I write that Limbaugh lied or Palin wasn’t correct, you accept it and move on. When I point out the biggest liar in the liberal media, you want to challenge that the guy lies. I have read Olbermann watch, just as you have. They are sometimes nitpicking, but the sheer number of lies that they are dead on about is staggering from this jackass. Are you denying that? Seriously?


            • Ray Hawkins says:

              @USW – my responses below…..

              USW Said: “Let’s start with the very first sentence, where Olbermann claimed Luntz’ memo told opponents of the Financial Reform Legislation to “Lie about it”. He does no such thing.”

              Ray ~ USW – out of the gate you are already wrong. The Luntz Memo, in being passed off as fact, surreptitiously equips the user/reader to use the points therein to establish/promote policy positions that are not entirely accurate. The memo does not explicitly tell the readers of the memo to lie – it does not need to. Why would you fall into the trap that ‘since it does not come right out and tell them to lie then it doesn’t tell them to lie’.

              USW Said: “I read the memo. He points out the fact that Americans are against lobbyist writing bills, government bureaucracy, and they don’t believe in the government’s ability to effectively fix the problem. So he points out that the bill goes against the public’s will on these issues and gives language to use to point it out. He points out that Americans want some form of a fix, and the GOP must embrace that while pointing out how this bill will not do so. You may not like Luntz’ tactics or his plans, but he never told Republicans to lie. He told them how to frame the bill effectively against public desires. Olbermann’s entire rant about it being a memo telling Republicans to lie was in fact the biggest lie being told.”

              Ray ~ WHOA CHIEF! “He points out as FACT” – operative word USW – who is defining the facts here? In fact, Luntz’s own clumsiness underscores the flimsiness of this bullshit. On page 4 of the memo he presents his gaudy graph that whomever he polled on this – supposedly the majority believe that “Individuals who took out loans they could not afford are mostly to blame for the financial crisis”. On page 5 this somehow becomes a “Words that Work” to state that it was “harmful policies by Washington bureaucrats that in many ways led to the economic crash that must never be repeated”. So which is it Doctor Frank? I find it very suspicious that you don’t see ‘framing’ as a way for Luntz to spin some fact with some crap and not call it a lie.

              USW Said: “He later tells how Luntz frames the issue as punishment for taxpayers and reward for financial companies, even though the opposite is true. Another lie from Olbermann, as the bill does do a bit of both. Olbermann is relying on you to never read the actual bill and accept what he is telling you about it.”

              Ray ~ Well, if the bill ‘does both’ then the ‘opposite is true’ cannot be the case – I suggest you make up your mind where you stand on this. I’d be more curious why you feel the reform bill or the commission hurts taxpayers rather than helps them. Specific citations from the bill would be helpful and that we can debate. The underlying premise of the bill is to provide protections for taxpayers, sometimes even from themselves – that is not in dispute and is not a lie.

              USW Said: “Next he talks about how predatory lending practices nearly brought down the economy. Another lie, as consumers taking loans they shouldn’t have taken is the issue, not the banks offering bad loans. Government instituted those predatory practices, thanks to Barney and Chris and all the other jackasses in Congress. Yet Olbermann attempts to paint a picture of all blame going to financial institutions. Simply not true. Not false, but his omission of any culpability other than the financial institutions is qualifying as it is a lie by omission.”

              Ray ~ It isn’t a lie by omission – the objective of Luntz was not to address the culpability of individuals who took loans they could not afford – so why would Olbermann address that? I know your Social Darwinism requires you to view the consumers as singularly culpable – much as I guess I should blame my wife’s dead Grandmother for being too dumb to realize that her own deep religious faith was being used against her by scumbag “preachers” to get her to empty her bank account. You’re out to lunch if you think there was not deep deep science and thought behind the banks and mortgage companies on who to target and how for pushing their bullshit mortgages.

              USW Said: “He then points out that Republicans simply lie, naming off a litany of GOP figures, while failing to mention the lies of Pelosi, Reid, etc. Again, he is spouting partisan BS, leading viewers to believe that the GOP lies while the Dems don’t. At least I am honest enough to say they ALL lie.”

              Ray ~ You’re absolutely right – but was he lying? He isn’t where he is because he advances what you personally believe in. You do get that right?

              USW Said: “Then there is a little chart showing a poll taken by the Daily Kos of all groups. The most far left piece of crap site in America, and it is presented as an honest summary of Republican beliefs in America.”

              Ray ~ You do realize that the poll results shown are not actually done by Daily Kos right? They are reporting on results from polling by Daily 2000. So – try again.

              USW Said: “That’s just the first minute and a half Ray. Do you really want me to go on?”

              Ray ~ Please do – I’ve summarily rejected/rebutted all your claims. Ball is in your court.

              USW Said: “Olbermann is a liar, a guy who does it in every way possible. I don’t think he is alone by any stretch. But he is by far the worst offender on a major “news” channel. You can watch him for comedy if you like, but many watch him and believe he is being honest and forthright. He is anything but that.”

              Ray ~ You’ve proven nothing.

              USW Said: “You know, it is interesting that when I write that Limbaugh lied or Palin wasn’t correct, you accept it and move on. When I point out the biggest liar in the liberal media, you want to challenge that the guy lies. I have read Olbermann watch, just as you have. They are sometimes nitpicking, but the sheer number of lies that they are dead on about is staggering from this jackass. Are you denying that? Seriously?”

              Ray ~ Don’t even pretend that your own version of fair and balanced places equal attention to Rush or Sarah or others. It simply does not and you’ve gone great lengths to support that by saying “well, look who is in power now”. I get that and understand it – really – I do. Don’t get emotional and mad just because I challenge you – isn’t that what you want? At the end of the day – I still see Keith O as more entertainer – he has little influence but can be used to see alternate views that sometimes lead down a trail of valuable bread crumbs.

              Back to you USW


  5. Todd’s Topic #1

    In continued conversation from last week’s open mic Todd offered the following. I moved it to here so they could continue their debate without searching through threads to do so:

    Black Flag,
    So now we’re jumping to Flight 77 at the Pentagon? I started talking about WTC 1-2, and then you jumped to WTC 7 (and I foolishly followed), and now you want to jump to Flight 77 at the Pentagon.

    What does Flight 77 have to do with what happened in New York?

    Maybe it’s evidence of a conspiracy and points to motive?

    But wait, that would be jumping the gun. First we need all the facts, right?

    So why are you in such a hurry to jump to Flight 77?

    Maybe we’re getting a little too close to the truth about WTC 1-2-7 and you want to move along??

    WTC building, all of them, collapsed symmetrically into their footprints at free fall.

    Every part of this is false.

    * None of the collapses were symmetrical

    The collapses of WTC 1-2 were not symmetrical. They looked that way when I first watched them, but close examination shows otherwise.

    Both WTC 1-2 had walls bulging in. They both tilted and then collapsed.

    WTC 7 was bulging for several hours before it collapsed. The bulging was so obvious the fire fighters could see it with the naked eye. They set up a transit and confirmed it was bulging. When it collapsed, WTC 7 collapsed down but also to the south – towards WTC 1-2 – the side with the damage. The collapse was not symmetrical.

    * They did not fall into their footprints

    Did you see the video’s of WTC 1 & 2 collapsing? Their exterior’s peeled away like a ladder being pushed away and then when they reached about 75-80 degrees (my guess) out from the buildings, they collapsed down.

    A large portion of the North Tower’s exterior that peeled away landed on top of WTC 7. And you call that damage minor?

    Did you see aerial shots of the aftermath? The exteriors of WTC 1-2 were laid out in several directions like ladders. WTC 1-2’s footprints were 1 acre each. The debris field was 16+ acres. They did not fall into their footprints.

    * They were not free fall

    The debris that broken loose from WTC 1-2 was in free fall, but not the buildings themselves. Pictures and videos clearly show large pieces of the exterior walls falling past the lower floors of the building that were still intact.

    For WTC 7, the east penthouse went first, then the west penthouse and the rest of the building. The entire collapse took 15-18 seconds. Not the 6 seconds claimed by conspiracy theories.

    Explosives or Demolition??

    In all the video I watched of the WTC 1-2-7 collapses, there was no sign of explosives going off. All the videos start with a low rumble that grows as the collapse intensifies. There is absolutely no evidence of explosives or demolition.

    This is especially true of WTC 1-2. The videos show the exterior wall getting pulled in by the failing floor trusses, and that causes the section above to tilt and then collapse. Again, absolutely no evidence of explosives or demolition.

    The WTC 1-2 collapses started near the plane impact and crushed down. Not explosives or demolition.

    WTC 7 is tougher. It’s “only” 50 stories, and much wider than WTC 1-2. It’s covered in dust/debris from WTC 1-2, and the entire south side is covered in smoke, so it’s hard to see. But the fact that the entire south side is covered in smoke means the fires are at least on the lower floors, and most likely on multiple floors. In the videos and audios, fire fighters are talking about a hole 18-20 stories high on the south face, that goes maybe 25% of the way into the building. Not minor damage.

    You talked about WTC 7 construction, how Solomon Brothers modified and reinforced the building, etc. But that’s also an “achilles heel”. When you have many small supports, the loss of “some” is not a big deal. When you have a few major supports, the loss or weakening of one can be fatal.

    WTC 7 was also uniquely designed in that its entire upper section above the 7th floor was supported by three main trusses.

    So WTC 7 – falling debris on top, falling debris that damaged the SW corner and created a large hole in the south face, only a few major supports that were over an oil-filled electrical sub-station in the basement in a burning building.

    We were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

    In the second video on this page, it shows a demolition of a 20-30 story building. There were multiple explosions at multiple levels of the building for 3-4 seconds, and then large explosions at the bases, and then the building crumbles from the bottom. Nothing like any of the WTC collapses.

    I don’t suffer fools very well.

    Pretty obvious.

    I am a natural problem solver. That is why I am good at my career. It was a natural outlet for my gift. When I see things, my mind automatically starts “How can I solve this problem?”. It irritates the heck out of my wife.

    I could have written this exact same sentence. Especially the last line – except I would have put heck in bold. 😉

    • Todd,

      Keep up.

      You are the one who “foolishly” made this statement, to refresh your memory:
      …didn’t find any credible evidence to support the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories. You said that, I didn’t.

      Flight 77 Flight Recorder was one of the major contention points and I’ve raised in more than once, as well in this thread, so you really haven’t looked that hard.

      If you try to make such sweeping statements, be prepared to be a beaten with a broom.

      If you believe the WHOLE thing has been answered – which is what you inferred, pop goes your bubble.

      What does Flight 77 have to do with what happened in New York?

      It has to do with 9/11 Conspiracies – of which you claim you’ve work so hard to answer.

      Maybe it’s evidence of a conspiracy and points to motive?

      Who knows? But until the questions are answered, you’ll be only pointlessly speculating.

      But wait, that would be jumping the gun. First we need all the facts, right?

      Right. We need to know why the Flight Recorder released to the public for Flight 77 does not fly the same path as the Plane that hit the Pentagon.

      That’s a good question, isn’t it? I mean, it supposed to, right?

      So why are you in such a hurry to jump to Flight 77?

      Because you, as pointed above, closed the book on 9/11.

      Maybe we’re getting a little too close to the truth about WTC 1-2-7 and you want to move along??

      Nope. Already explained that it was you who tried to close the book – but you probably don’t read your own posts much, so I quoted you.

      Further, that’s why I gave whole more bunch of news items showing the list of people questioning is growing – not shrinking. Why do you think that is? I bet its because there are a lot of unanswered question!

      WTC building, all of them, collapsed symmetrically into their footprints at free fall.

      Every part of this is false.

      * None of the collapses were symmetrical

      Now you are claiming they toppled???

      Holy smokes – you’re drifting further from reality, man!

      The collapses of WTC 1-2 were not symmetrical. They looked that way when I first watched them, but close examination shows otherwise.

      You mean they toppled over?

      Both WTC 1-2 had walls bulging in. They both tilted and then collapsed.

      You’re missing mechanics, sir.

      If they began tilting, why did they stop? You heard about this guy, Newton, and a body in motion stays in motion thingy he said?

      WTC 7 was bulging for several hours before it collapsed. The bulging was so obvious the fire fighters could see it with the naked eye. They set up a transit and confirmed it was bulging.

      Not even NIST claims a bulge.

      IF there was a bulge, the collapse would have been a topple.

      It wasn’t – it was withing its own footprint — even NIST calls it an implosion.

      When it collapsed, WTC 7 collapsed down but also to the south – towards WTC 1-2 – the side with the damage. The collapse was not symmetrical.

      I even did the work for you, where the rubble pattern was shown post-failure. It was in its foot print.

      If you can’t realize that – you are WAAAAY off, son.

      * They did not fall into their footprints

      Did you see the video’s of WTC 1 & 2 collapsing? Their exterior’s peeled away like a ladder being pushed away and then when they reached about 75-80 degrees (my guess) out from the buildings, they collapsed down.

      Again, to go over the same road … a few questions – what energy pushed tons of girders latterly?

      If it was gravity, then the momentum energy would be consumed – and the buildings would not have exhibited free fall.

      But we have free fall – so it can’t be gravity.

      A large portion of the North Tower’s exterior that peeled away landed on top of WTC 7. And you call that damage minor?

      You use bizarre definitions, Todd.

      “Large portion” is how much? A large portion of the tower fell on WTC 3, 4,5 and 6 – the WTC was across the street – and suffered MINOR damage compared to the rest of the WTC.

      Did you see aerial shots of the aftermath? The exteriors of WTC 1-2 were laid out in several directions like ladders. WTC 1-2’s footprints were 1 acre each. The debris field was 16+ acres. They did not fall into their footprints.

      Todd, the concept of ‘fall in their foot print’ is one that describes that they went down – not toppled.

      Had they toppled they would have been strewn in one direction for blocks. They were not, the rubble was contained with in the block of the WTC FOOTPRINT.

      As noted in your own evidence of a web site, they denoted the rubble pattern – barely crossed the street to WTC7 and else where.

      Don’t be obtuse – I’m too old for it.

      * They were not free fall

      The debris that broken loose from WTC 1-2 was in free fall, but not the buildings themselves. Pictures and videos clearly show large pieces of the exterior walls falling past the lower floors of the building that were still intact.

      How many times does it need to be explained to you what free fall means?

      I gave you videos explaining it simply and clearly – with the software, the program, the methodology – and you still ignore it.

      That is why I get short and testy with you. You claim 18 seconds – the Engineering video demonstrates precisely the fall sequence – the start – the freefall – and the termination.

      He even showed the error NIST did in measuring AVERAGE acceleration – failing to acknowledge the free fall.

      But you completely ignore it, and muddle along in your little world.

      Explosives or Demolition??

      In all the video I watched of the WTC 1-2-7 collapses, there was no sign of explosives going off.

      Again, the ample video evidence I provided of squibs in advance of the collapse wave for the towers, and squibs 20 floors below the roof in the WTC 7 prior to the total collapse – is oblivious to you.

      There is absolutely no evidence of explosives or demolition.

      So how do you explain FEMA’s report of molten steel in the basements of the towers and WTC – the fact that fires that burned until Dec., the traces of thermite, the sulferization of the steel, the iron spheres, the steel ‘meteorites’ found in the buildings…

      There is no evidence, for you, because no agency tested for it.

      Not minor damage.

      Minor damage. This is a building that was built and designed to have entire floors removed from its structure to suit the desires of tenants.

      You talked about WTC 7 construction, how Solomon Brothers modified and reinforced the building, etc. But that’s also an “achilles heel”. When you have many small supports, the loss of “some” is not a big deal.

      You did not watch the video on the presentation by the building engineer.

      Again, if I provide the explanations to you, and you chose to ignore them – but still make claims from your ignorance – how do you think I will feel about chasing a fool?

      When you have a few major supports, the loss or weakening of one can be fatal.

      First, no it wouldn’t be. The fact that this particular building was designed for it makes it even more so.

      Second, as one guy said – if that is all it takes to bring down a building – why are they all falling down?

      only a few major supports that were over an oil-filled electrical sub-station in the basement in a burning building.

      Even FEMA says that such a scenario you offer has at best a very low probability of being correct.

      We were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse.

      Since no such occurrence of a collapse has ever happened in history why were “we” pretty sure?

      That is bizarre – except if you knew it was going to be brought down on purpose

      You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors.

      Got any video or picture evidence? Or is this conjecture?

      Nothing like any of the WTC collapses.

      Correct yourself.

      Very much like WTC 7.

      • Black Flag,

        You are the one who “foolishly” made this statement, to refresh your memory:
        …didn’t find any credible evidence to support the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories. You said that, I didn’t.

        Yes, I made that statement, and it’s still true. But you missed a part in your quote. Here’s the whole quote to refresh your memory:

        I went thru a lot 9/11 websites from all sides this weekend. I didn’t find any credible evidence to support the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.

        I didn’t say I looked at all websites or all evidence. I said I looked at a lot, and I only scratched the surface. But I was finding the same info over and over – from both sides.

        But I should have been clearer in that statement. I was only looking at information about the events in New York. I have not done any research on the events in DC.

        This is just another example of you picking one detail and blowing it out of proportion. Maybe we should go back to this statement you made:

        Wholly false. 100% of the support of the towers was the core. The floors were cabled and laid so that all their weight pushed straight down on the center core.

        And this clarification from you:

        I stand corrected. The correct word should have been the core carries MOST of the load.

        Compared to this information from http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html, the last link on http://www.ae911truth.org/techarts.php, the group that Bottom Line referenced as a good source:

        The perimeter columns formed a square with horizontal bracing and chamfered corners, and carried themselves and about half the main floor load. The perimeter columns had a design safety factor such that they would have been capable of carrying the entire load themselves without the help of the core, although this would never be the case under normal circumstances.

        Sounds like the perimeter columns were pretty important to me. So, you want to clarify again? Using your logic of picking on single errors to discredit those that disagree with you, you obviously haven’t done much research about the collapse of WTC 1-2, so I think we can dismiss all of your arguments.

        Because you, as pointed above, closed the book on 9/11.

        Another exaggeration by you. I didn’t close the book. I told you what I had found.

        Do you want to continue this little tit-for-tat of picking out little details to try to discredit others and make your point? Or do you want to discuss real issues?

        Now you’re changing the definition of words and phrases?

        Symmetrical – relating to or having balanced proportions, especially in two halves of a whole
        Asymmetrical – not balanced or regularly arranged on opposite sides of a line or around a central point

        I have never said the buildings toppled.
        Toppling is not the opposite of symmetrical.
        Asymmetrical is the opposite of asymmetrical.

        None of the WTC collapses were symmetrical – no matter how much you wish they were.

        Same thing for “fall into their footprints”. The buildings only “fell into their footprints” if you change the definition of “footprint” to fit your theory.

        Same thing for “free fall”.

        Did you watch that demolition video? It looks nothing like WTC 1-2.

        Show me one example of a building demolition where the top of the building “mushroomed” out in cloud of dust and debris like WTC 1-2?

        In every demolition I’ve seen, the dust cloud starts at ground level as the building free falls to the ground.

        We were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse.

        You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors.

        These were comments made by fire fighters on the scene. When it’s your job to enter burning and damaged buildings, collapse is always a concern. Maybe the engineers and architects need a few lessons from the fire fighters.

        You used fire fighter’s comments in the past. Are they only valid when they support your conspiracy theory?

        All of your examples of other buildings that burned but did not collapse had significant differences with WTC (all of them did not have all of these differences, but some combination).
        * not hit by a plane
        * most had beams encased in concrete – an effective fire retardant
        * different design and construction
        * fires were higher, so less weight on the damaged structure
        * fires were actively fought by fire fighters, containing the fire

        The one exception – EL AL Boeing 747 Crash – and it really is my favorite:

        The article is about what caused the plane crash, but the picture shows the building. It looks like a 10-15 story hotel shaped like at “L”? Is that correct?

        It’s hard to tell, because the entire middle of the “L” is missing! There was nothing left to collapse! The 747 took out the entire middle portion and left a pile of rubble.

        But in the past you said the planes that hit WTC 1-2 were like tin foil that crumbled on impact? Despite the plane shaped holes in the buildings’ exteriors. But now you present evidence of a 747 (yes a bigger plane – but still tin foil) that destroyed the section of building it hit.

        So exactly what’s your point? Who’s side are you arguing here?

        But you’re right about one thing – I’ve made several contradictions and incorrect statements during these discussions as I’ve learned more about the events of 9/11. It’s called learning – you should try it sometime.

        This whole conversation as been classic BF:
        * Provide a very vague theory of your own
        * Do not provide details of your theory, because then it could be evaluated
        * Pick apart small details of others’ theories
        * Tell everyone how smart you are
        * Demean and belittle those who disagree with you so they won’t fight back
        * Repeat…

        I’ve seen it happen here many times. I don’t expect it will change.

        This has become an excise in stupidity – and you’re winning.

        I have suffered enough of this foolishness.

    • Bottom Line says:


      When 911 happened, I knew something wasn’t right. I wasn’t sure why or how, but something just didn’t seem right.

      I spent some time researching, trying to explain it in order to have a more thorough understanding of just what exactly happened.

      At some point I resigned to the thought that there was never going to be a real answer about the collapses, as there was no way to prove it either way.

      Since coming to that conclusion there has been QUITE a bit of progress in making that determination. But I hadn’t seen it as I had given up trying.

      Then one day a few weeks ago, Mr.Flag had posted in regards to the collapse. So, I thought I would argue a bit from the angle of playing the devil’s advocate as, like most of the time, I was sure to learn something.

      And INDEED I did. My attention was directed to all of the videos that ‘Architects & Engineers For 911 Truth’ had made.

      I even went so far as to research the formulas to describe in mathematical terms…”Newton’s Apple”.

      I am now enlightened. And as BF stated it…


      So, My first challenge to you is to do as I did and teach yourself a little calculus(assuming you don’t already know).

      I wanted a point of reference to compare the collapse.

      I.E. – An apple falling from 110 stories.

      It’s when I started figuring resistance forces that it began to seem obvious.

      I.E. – Fluid density of steel and concrete vs fluid density of air.

      (…not to mention the ridiculousness of trying to figure the drag coefficient of a bunch of debris.)

      My second challenge to you is to actually watch and try to digest the many videos that some of the greatest minds have made. They explain it pretty damn well if you ask me. They use the footage, scientific method, math, and the laws of physics.

      Watch them all. I know it’s many hours of videos. I see it as many hours of a thorough explanation. They’re well worth your time if you are indeed trying to seek the truth.

      Here is the link to their youtube channel:


      • Bottom Line and Todd,

        Here is my challenge to you both.

        There are – literally – tens of thousands of videos and web sites describing the questions surrounding 9/11 – as an example, BL shows the AE911 guys who have done a stand-up job in offering video analysis, software, their assumptions, etc. for criticism.

        There are – literally – only smallest fraction of the former web sites explaining the ‘official’ story. None (that I’ve found, at least) offer video analysis, software, their assumptions, etc. for criticism at the same level as the AE911 team. Zip. Zero. Nada.

        As highlighted in the Mechanical Engineer’s presentation, all of the studies on behalf of the government come from a small group of no more than 10 of the same people. There is no wonder why their answers are always the same.

        In the blog space, there are tens of thousandsof different people analyzing the information.

        Thus, why the 9/11 Truth movement is growing – the official story advocates are simply out numbered by orders of magnitude and out classed – though they remain in control.

        Try finding NIST’s assumptions for their simulation.

        They refuse to release them.

        Compare that to the AE911 group that publishes them fully.

        Even more bizarre, the published simulation does not even come close to what happened in WTC7!!

        They shamelessly publish a simulation that shows a progressive collapse (from the perspective of a view) left to right.

        But that is not how the WTC 7 fell – it fell bottom up.

        The NIST simulation, of course, stops before the entire collapse completes. They do not show the whole sequence. The reason: it does not match the reality of the WTC 7 failure. Yet, they claim this is what WTC 7 did.

        But, the People are told that this is what happened.

        If what is being told is different than what really happened, what conclusion do we make???

        • Bottom Line says:

          At this point, I’m convinced.

          I’m not sure it’s necessary to go looking for more reasons to support the idea that it was controlled demolition.

          Not that I’m saying I won’t continue to look at the ever mounding OVERWHELMING evidence, …I’m just saying that I no longer need to be convinced.

          My next biggest questions are “WHO DID IT?” and “WHY?”

          I’m hopeful that time will tell.

          The truth almost always comes out eventually.

          BTW, Flag, Thanks for yet another lesson in economics.(yesterday)

          …Just more ammo to school educated idiots on economic theory.


      • Bottom Line,
        I have looked at a lot of the information on AE911, but haven’t had time to watch all the videos or get into all the details. I do plan to do more of that.

        I have a pretty good understanding of calculus. I probably couldn’t do the analysis on my own, but I can follow someone else’s.

        I have a suggestion for you – you should teach Black Flag some people skills. He’d get a lot farther, a lot faster, if his posts were more like yours, and not an “in-your-face-you-are-wrong-and-I’m-right” rant every time.

        • Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don’t have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can’t you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

          • Bottom Line says:

            HUH? (scratches head @ Naten53)

            • From the movie “Office Space”

              • Bottom Line says:

                Oh okay, …makes sense now, even though I haven’t seen the movie.

                Very funny.

                …kinda like that old joke:

                “I don’t drink, don’t smoke, and don’t cuss…

                …Oh sh*t, I left my cigarettes at the bar.”

                • Bottom Line,
                  No, your example is a lie – funny, but a lie.

                  Naten53 is showing how people may think they have people skills, when they really don’t.

                  Both funny, but very different.

        • Bottom Line says:

          Consider this Todd…

          Imagine you live in a small town of a thousand people. And lets say that the whole town, except you, is color-blind and can’t see the color brown.

          You explain to them what brown looks like. You describe it to them the best way you know how.

          You explain the physics of how light works.

          You explain the human eye and how cones and rods work.

          You point out brown objects, and the differences between them and orange things.

          You do everything you can to try and help them understand brown, but they still mistake brown for tones of orange.

          Sure they understand the logic, but no matter what, they are simply incapable of seeing it.

          Imagine how frustrating it would be.

          Mr. Flag is Mensa. He’s more intelligent than almost everyone he comes in contact with.

          There is a whole other world he sees, that we are simply incapable of understanding.

          Try as we may, we can’t ever think at the same level.

          Something we struggle with is like child’s play to him.

          Imagine his frustration.

          So, when he makes a slightly condescending statement, I’m not really offended.

          In fact, I rather appreciate his efforts and patience with relatively stupid(only gifted) people like myself.

          Does that help put it into perspective?

          • Bottom Line,

            When I was a kid in school, I was quite confused – not by the universe – but by people, kids and adults alike.

            I would wonder “What the heck are they thinking?” Everyone seemed bizarre to me.

            I had thought that everyone thinks like me. But I couldn’t understand why they believed as they did, did what they did, said what they did – on almost everything.

            Only much later did I find that almost no one thinks like me. I thought they were the bizarre ones – but, indeed, it was me.

            But I do not think people are “stupid”. They may sometimes say, think or do stupid things – but everyone does that at times.

            But I do get frustrated sometimes. My wife is helping me to overcome this – but progress is slow.

            • Bottom Line says:

              When Einstein was a child, he was accused of having a learning disability.

              Like you, His mind was just geared differently.

              I suppose it’s like being taught colors by a bunch of color-blind teachers.

              And I didn’t mean to suggest that you think of everyone as “stupid”.

              What I meant(and should have better clarified/articulated) is…

              My IQ is 130 something, yours is probably 180 or 190 something.

              You trying to explain something to me is like me trying to explain something to someone with an IQ of 90.

              Hence the word “relatively”.

              As far as you dealing with your frustrations, I’d say your doing pretty well at it.

              I’m curious, What age were you when you discovered you were brilliant?

              • Bottom Line,

                Probably had an inkling when I was 6.

                I started the school year with my friend, a little girl next door, bragging she could “multiply”, and I didn’t know what that meant.

                But I promised myself I would never let myself be stymied by a ‘girl’ ever again!

                By the end of the year, I was doing simple polynomials. The rest were still struggling with division. I couldn’t understand why they “didn’t get it” – but I generally ignored such speculation.

                When I “skipped” a grade was another (Gr. 4 to 6) – not the skipping, but that Gr. 6 was so fundamentally “easy”.

                My Gr. 6 science teacher hated me. But he also saw me as his science experiment.

                One day at lunch he was playing chess with another student.

                I did not know the game at all. While watching, I asked him how to play.

                In a rare insight for him, he turned and smiled and said: “If you’re so damn smart, you figure it out!”

                And I did. He did help with the ‘weird moves’ of castling and en passant – but the rest I figured out.

                I built my own chess set (I couldn’t afford to buy one), and played my Dad, and after I beat him constantly, I played against myself.

                I won the chess championship that year.

                I never got 100% on any test, though. I was often penalized for ‘not showing my work’ – and in language arts, as I am slightly dyslexic – my spelling was/is horrific.

                When I was in Gr. 10,scholastically, it was horrifically boring. Socially, it was very confusing.

                But it also changed me. This is where I probably figured out I was completely different.

                I had ‘invented’ my own version of calculus. So the ‘tests’ were easy, but my methodology was different.

                I happened into a rare gem – he was an old teacher, a couple of years from retirement – Mr. Thomas. He saw who I was and cultivated it – completely opposite of other teachers.

                He convinced me to abandon my own methods and learn the standards – not because I was wrong, but because I would end up speaking a language that no one else could understand, and I would lose the knowledge and wisdom of everyone else. That made sense to me.

                One semester, he gave out a quarterly test.

                I looked at it, and it was Greek to me. Holy Cow! I barely understood the questions, let alone try to solve them.

                I looked around and my classmates appeared eager and prepared – while I was stymied.

                Later, I got my mark – 55%! I never got 55% in my life! – I was devastated. My classmates got 70%-85%, etc. and they were all dolts. I couldn’t believe it. Obviously, I’ve missed something fundamental – so I steeled myself to work and pay attention in class.

                I did, and it was all incredibly droll and boring…but I worked at it…

                The next test came out. It was worse than the first. I honestly felt like crying I was so frustrated in trying to understand the problems. Again, my classmates seemed eager and undisturbed by the test.

                The mark came back. 30%. I was going to commit suicide. My life was over. I knew nothing.

                After class, almost weeping, I staggered up to Mr. Thomas saying “Sir, I’m in real trouble – obviously I don’t understand a thing in this class”

                He was shocked! I showed him my test and he started to laugh….

                “Mr. Flag, I have been giving you University level calculus tests. I have a friend at the University and I have been telling him about you. He offered the tests he gives to his 3rd year math undergraduates so we could see what you really can do! You’ve solved some problems that even I could not do! My friend was amazed! I am sorry I didn’t tell you, but I wanted you to try as hard as you could. Don’t worry, you already have a “A” in my course”. I could have killed him.

                He is the one who got me into technology. He wrote a letter to the University asking for its support in providing me access to their computers as he felt it would be a significant opportunity for my future. I had never seen a computer.

                That introduction changed my life. So, Mr. Thomas became the ‘point’ of my life’s geometry.

                Later that year, the principle had a meeting with me. In a nation-wide standardized test, I got the highest mark in Chemistry. I liked Chemistry but it wasn’t my favorite subject but I guess I did well enough.

                During that meeting I saw in my record one of my IQ tests – the score was high end – about 1 out of 50,000.

                But I really knew when I was in university.

                I took a history class – which was fantastic.

                I missed a class due to flu – and that is when the prof. announced the mid-term date. But he never mentioned it again.

                One day I came in, and everyone was reviewing one of the required reading books on Marx.

                I was surprised since everyone – except me – had brought the book.

                I soon found out, the midterm was that day and it would be completely on the contents of this book – which I never read.

                I was rattled.

                The prof. came in, handed me the test and said “Mr. Flag, you appear unprepared”.

                I said I didn’t know that the test was today. He shrugged and said “Oh well, do what you can”.

                I do not remember the test.
                I do not remember writing a word.
                I do remember I was so unbearably cold I was shivering so hard my teeth were rattling.

                After two test booklets I handed in my test. I remained rattled all day.

                Next class, he handed out the results – but first he admonished everyone for their lack of study.

                Obviously, he said, no one did the required reading – and he looked at me with accusing eyes – I was embarrassed.

                After quite a few minutes of threatening failings for all of us, he handed the tests.

                “Black Flag!” He bellowed! I shrank.

                “Congratulations! You got the only ‘A’!”

                I almost fell out of my chair.

                I read my work – it was in my hand writing, no doubt (I could tell by the bad spelling mistakes). But it was remarkable. It was stunning. It was brilliant! I do not know who wrote it. It was someone else because there was no way it could have been me. But it was.

                It was then I truly realized what I am. I have someone else inside my head that only speaks up when the outer shell shuts up. It was then I understood where my innate understanding comes from.

                I believe we all have that, too. Why some, like me, whether by biology or nurture or training or mistake, appear to tap into that easier – I cannot say.

                But we all have it, that I do know.

                • Mr. Flag, I agree that we all have it, as you put it. Maybe it’s just in different ways. I’ve was accused of being heartless one time in my adult life, Because I remained completely calm in the midst of total chaos, and bitched because people were acting like (kitty cats). Strange how chaos still doesn’t effect me. Thats a story for another day.

                  I enjoyed reading this again, you do have an interesting story to tell and it’s worth hearing! Peace!


                • Bottom Line says:

                  That is a most interesting story/abbreviated biography.

                  While reading it, I realize how oversimplified of a question I was asking.

                  (…As if there was some eureka moment.)

                  I now see that it was more like a journey of discovery of yourself.

                  Being an amateur student of psychology, the part I find of particular interest is that you’re “slightly dyslexic”.

                  You’re wired a little differently. As such that you have a bit of an advantage.

                  I.E. – “I had ‘invented’ my own version of calculus. So the ‘tests’ were easy, but my methodology was different.”

                  It’s almost as if you’re processing info on a subconscious level.

                  I.E. – “I do not remember the test.
                  I do not remember writing a word.”

                  I.E. – The last 3 paragraphs.

                  You’re kinda like rainman without autism.


                  • Bottom Line,

                    Yes, it was more a self-enlightement journey that still goes on.

                    I think it is hard to look at one’s self as if it was through foreign eyes.

                    As I said, it was wondering why everyone else – who was supposed to think like me – were not – I couldn’t get that part of my mind around that they were fine – it was ME!

                    As far a wired differently – it was so much so that my English teacher sent home books to help my parents try to teach me to spell and write. I asked my parents “Do I really need to do this?” – they said “No, not if you don’t want to”. I threw them in the garbage.

                    In my little class, we had to use pencil and the prize for neat printing and good spelling was ‘graduating’ to using a pen.

                    I was the very last student using a pencil and finally the teacher, sensing the growing embarrassment over the weeks of STILL being the only one using a pencil finally gave up and gave me a pen. But that episode only made me stand out worse than before.

                    So, advantage/curse – that darn two edge sword.

                    As far as mathematics – the best I can relate my experience with it is like you talking, writing and reading English.

                    You don’t intellectualize your spoken thoughts – they sort of run out of your mouth from a subconscious process. We don’t consciously think about what our next words will be – there are sort of ‘already there’ (for better or worse 🙂 )

                    That’s how math is to me – it sorta just flows out of me like a language. I create sentences and paragraphs just like you would speaking and writing. I ‘feel it’ more than ‘think it’ – if that makes any sense.

                    So, yeah, it is subconscious – for sure – and in fact, just like speaking English – when we suddenly switch to conscious creation of sentences, our speaking slows right down and we also tend to start mumbling.

                    My math is the same way – when suddenly I have to ‘think’ about it – it actually gets harder.

                    I may have some symptoms of Asperger’s – I have a nephew who demonstrates this very strongly and I see a bit in my father and brother – and myself.

                    As far as my nephew, he is incredibly brilliant – but closed to the world. Small changes in his routine will set him off, but when he is comfortable – as merely a 5 year old – his introspective nature has made him profound.

                    He was with his Grandfather looking over the ocean, quietly sitting together.

                    He looked up to my Dad and said:

                    “Grandpa, the ocean is ….really… deep, isn’t it?” and quietly went back to gazing over its grand expanse. Grandpa was amazed with his little Buddha.

                    • Bottom Line says:


                      Didn’t mean to leave ya hangin’.

                      Things got a little busy.

                      All is fairly calm now and I have a White Russian to assist.

                      I believe that we never stop growing and learning. We do so right up to the day we die.

                      Indeed foreign eyes are hard to see through. Self reflection is a profound thing.

                      I would say that being wired differently is definitely an advantage.

                      Social complications are more than a fair price to pay for such a gift.

                      Phuq the box.

                      It’s full of sheeple.

                      Different is good.

                      Unique is even better.

                      Your mention of it is the first time I’ve ever heard of Asperger’s.

                      I did just enough reading on it to define.

                      Your explanation of your thought process makes perfect sense.

                      It sounds alot like my father.

                      He’s real good with math.

                      I’ve seen him rattle off some pretty technical stuff …so fast that he couldn’t possibly be thinking about it.

                      …while hammered drunk too I might add.

                      It’s always a learning experience conversing with you, Mr. Flag.

                      I/we am/are getting a deeper understanding of who you are.

                      I’m sure others would agree that this is a rewarding conversation.


          • Bottom Line,
            I understand your example. But what if after your explanation you ask for questions, and someone points at your brown and orange color swatches and says “what do you mean – both those swatches are orange?” If you then go off on a rant and point out how stupid they are, they probably won’t listen to you in the future. You lose.

            But your example also contains a serious flaw. You’re frustrated because people who can’t see brown don’t understand your explanation of the color brown…

            but they still mistake brown for tones of orange

            No, it’s not a mistake. To them brown and orange are the same thing.

            Sure they understand the logic, but no matter what, they are simply incapable of seeing it.

            What more could you expect beyond understanding the logic? Because they are simply incapable of seeing the color brown…

            Imagine how frustrating it would be.

            Imagine how frustrating it would be for them. You’re telling them that what they see is wrong, when in fact it is not. Their vision does not distinguish between brown and orange, so it is illogical of you to expect anything more than they understand the logic.

            If you were to give them a test with brown and orange swatches, they would all fail, no matter how many times you “explain” the difference between brown and orange.

            Imagine how frustrating it would be for dog to explain to you what a dog whistle sounds like? Sure you understand the logic, but no matter what, you are simply incapable of hearing it. And you would fail the test – because you can’t hear it!

            If Mr Flag is not able to discuss things in a friendly manner, he will lose the argument, whether he is right or not.

            In fact, I rather appreciate his efforts and patience with relatively stupid(only gifted) people like myself.

            Mr Flag is the all-knowing fountain of knowledge for many here. That’s at least part of the problem.

            So you’re suggesting that I should just let his insults and cheap-shots go (and incorrect facts?), and appreciate his efforts and patience with a relatively stupid person like myself? Really? Really? Really!!

            I suspect that has been the case for far too long, which results in his inability to explain things calmly and rationally.

            Your example also assumes you and Mr Flag are right. Imagine my frustration in dealing with two people (who claim superior intellect) who refuse to listen to reason and see the true facts of the events of 9/11?

            You assume that both you and Mr Flag have superior intellect. An assumption I do not share, especially given the flaws in the logic of your example.

            • Todd,

              “who refuse to listen to reason and see the true facts of the events of 9/11?”

              Mirror gazing again?

              The facts are as already described – and the official story cannot explain them.

              9/11: Blueprint for Truth – The Architecture of Destruction pt.1/13

              • OMG…are you serious? So your response is…to provide more proof of the 9/11 conspiracy?

                The good news you noticed that line…but the bad news is you missed the subtle meaning of it…and I guess my entire post. That really is a shame…

                And I suppose you don’t see the irony of your response?

                I don’t know if I should laugh or cry…it really is hopeless…

        • Todd,

          I have people skills. I have a quick wit and I am well-liked by most people and loved by a few.

          However, when it comes to illusions vs. reality, I’m about as harsh as the universe is in this regard. Reality is. Illusions are not. Deal with it

          If I am too harsh I apologize – it is not intentional. It probably comes from my subconscious that detests being surrounded by muddled and confused people.

          Many, many years ago I attended one of my first technology conferences. The speaker was talking about some complex technology and I understood squat. I looked around the crowd, and nearly everyone’s head was nodding and the people were animated – they all understood this guy – but I did not.

          I thought “What the hell I am doing here? I don’t know anything! I should find another career because I’m not going to make a go of this one!”

          The next year, I went again. Again, the presenter was explaining some complex technology. Again, I did not understand a thing he said.

          But this time it was different. Over the past year, I discovered that I did understand and I did know what I was doing. Indeed, I was really good at it. But as an unlettered professional in this field – I had foolishly deferred to so-called “experts” with strange abbreviations behind their names to be ‘right’. During that year, I stopped doing that. That decision made me very wealthy.

          At the conference that year, I looked around the room – and sure enough, everyone was nodding in agreement to his talk.

          But he was wrong. He did not know what he was talking about. I could not understand him because he was totally babbling in garbage mouth.

          I interrupted him – in front of an audience of quite a few hundred professionals and academics, and told him he was wrong – that he misunderstood the functions of some basic technology and his explanation was faulty.

          This guy, a PhD, stammered and admitted “Well, I just picked this up last week and so I haven’t fully investigated it”.

          Well, this was the first time I had seen it, but I knew how it had to work.

          He didn’t trust the hundreds of thousands of man years of past knowledge to establish how this new technology had to work. He couldn’t put the ‘4’ of yesterday with the ‘1’ of today to realize the answer had to be ‘5’.

          Later, people would come up to me and say “Yeah, I though he was full of bull too – but I saw everyone else seemed to think he was right, so I kept quiet”.

          My reputation was set. I became “known” at every conference after that, as the designated “guru”.

          A couple of years later, a brand new computer system and operating system came out at the conference. With about a thousand people watching informally, I swaggered up to the console – like Moses and the Red Sea – the crowd separated to allow me sole access.

          I sat down to demonstrate all the new features I had just discovered the night before…

          …and preceded to crash the entire system 🙂

          The whole conference was being run from this system – so as the system failed, you could hear the hundreds of disconnect ‘beeping’ of all the devices throughout the conference center going off. :blush:

          Later, at the keynote, the founder of COMPAQ – in his opening, acknowledged my profound experience and efforts in finding all the bugs in their new systems and software! He hoped next year the system would be much better at resisting my ‘live’ tests.

          But the point: I know what I know. I am right 99.8% of the time.

          The problem for me is the 0.2% when I’m wrong. How do I tell? So I will ‘push’ as hard down that path as I do the times “I am always right” – and right into disaster. Thus, my poverty-to-fortune-to-poverty-to-fortune Ferris Wheel lifestyle.

          The secret you can use against me is fact, logic and reason. I am helpless in the face of those weapons.

    • I have one question for the people that believe that explosives were used on 9/11 to either bring down the buildings, osr at the very least bring them down: just when, excatly, were the explosives laid? I have yet to see a PLAUSIBLE explanation for when this was done.

      • Bottom Line says:

        Excellent question Redleg.

        The simple answer is “I don’t know”

        It’s perceivable however, that it could be done relatively easy though.

        A “maintenance crew” could have done it in a couple/few weeks.

        A single “maintenance man” could have done it over a period of a year/years.

        All it would have taken would be the right people sneaking into the utility spaces and planting them.

        Any records or security camera footage would/could have been destroyed in the collapse.

      • Redleg

        Bottom Line lays out the speculation appropriately.

        The answer would be if explosives were planted:

        Any time between 1993 and 2001.

        There is no necessity of a ‘foot race’ necessary to do the job in a hurry. Any deadline is artificial, given that we are speculating.

  6. Nice, USW got it up early tonight. I’ll start off my list with this one:

    By June, 5.1 million homes will be worth less than 75% of what is currently owed on their mortgages – the typical walking away point for homeowners, even if they can afford their payments. This figure represents 10% of homeowners!

    NY Times via Huffington Post front page

    “People like me are beginning to feel like suckers,” Mr. Koellmann said. “Why not let it go in default and rent a better place for less?”

    Most of all, though, he struggles with the ethical question.

    “I took a loan on an asset that I didn’t see was overvalued,” he said. “As much as I would like my bank to pay for that mistake, why should it?”

    That is an attitude Wall Street would like to encourage. David Rosenberg, the chief economist of the investment firm Gluskin Sheff, wrote recently that borrowers were not victims. They “signed contracts, and as adults should also be held accountable,” he wrote.

    Of course, this is not necessarily how Wall Street itself behaves, as demonstrated by the case of Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village. An investment group led by the real estate giant Tishman Speyer recently defaulted on $4.4 billion in debt that it had used to buy the two apartment developments in Manhattan, handing the properties back to the lenders.

    So my parents have decided to give up the house they’ve been in for 30+ years and mostly raised us in because the math just doesn’t make sense for them anymore. They owe the bank more than $50,000 more than the house is worth, due to creative refinancing to pay for, among other things, my grandparents’ medical bills and my and my brother’s college tuition. Plus in order to sell they’d need to make another $50,000 worth of repairs/upgrades. So by walking away they basically “sell” their credit score – already bad – for a net gain of $100,000, and in the immediate future they lower their monthly payment from $2500+ to just $1500.

    So, is that ethical? Smart business? Free market at work? (As free as it can be at the moment, anyway.)

    Think we’ll start seeing the banks, backed up by the government, pursue lawsuits to force repayment, via liens on wages or repossession of other assets besides the home? (cars, second property, etc)

    • DKII,

      I don’t blame your parents one bit. All their lives, they’ve worked hard, played by the rules, and done the best they could, only to screwed by the system. Is it ethical? I don’t know, but its very understandable. I wish them better luck in the future.

      I think you’re right about future lawsuits to force repayment. Its always the little guy that gets it in the end…….

    • Morning All!

      Posting for comments, but would like to say that I’ve read that there is an upcoming spike in loan adjustments coming this year, much like the last one that caused the problems. This is a real problem for many homeowners, and yes, it is as real as it gets. Values have gone way down, while wages have not kept up with the cost of living. The next housing bubble, could be far worse than the first, only time will tell.


    • I sympathize with your parent’s troubles but I’m on the other side of the equation. I took over the family business. I live above the business. Paid my parents every single dime of profit for 4 years. Took a small salary, and I do mean small until the debt was paid. That was in 2000. Business was booming so I poured profits into new equipment and continued to save for my kids college. Money kept rolling in so I bought some waterfront property with cash. Fast forward to 2007 and my business was swallowed up by a huge nationwide company. In 14 yrs I raised my price only once by 2 cents but I couldn’t compete with the big guys bid of half my price. Had to lay off for the first time IN 50+ yrs.
      I did it the right way but now I have 2 buildings and some beautiful waterfront property that are worth half of what I paid for them and now I have very little savings.

      No slam against your parents but I do have a problem with several of my friends who have walked from their mortgages. Most have lived over their heads for years and now get to walk scott free. Their actions have brought my net worth down drastically. Personal responsibility weighs heavy.

      • Hi Anita,

        What sort of business do you have?

        • Hold on to your socks. It’s nothing you would have ever thought of… commercial laundry. We started out as a coin laundromat years ago and ended up strictly commercial…like a factory. Made my living off millions of pieces of dirty linen from the airlines

          • That’s cool! Somebody has to do it! 🙂 I can see why your business is hurting, though. Have you thought of catering to other industries? Maybe there’s some welfare operation that can use your sevices. If you can find one, you may as well. You’re stuck with Dear Reader and his policies reguardless of wheather or not you support what he’s doing. Get yours while you still can. Certainly that’s how I feel about the Nuke program increased funding. If our proto-dictator is going to indulge his nuke-envy, I might as well make the most of it, even though I’d like to see him removed from office. I look at it as ‘social justice’ for me! 😆

            • Yep. I’ve been struggling along with just a few corporate accounts and a few city accounts..just enough to keep ME going. Right now, I’m scared to get more new business because I’ll have to give more money away in taxes. Forget that! I’m staying under 250k or whatever the hell the # is now

              • I don’t blame you one bit! I have lots of people ask me to sew, but I’d need a ‘business license’. Doing that will incur the full weight of the powers that be. Totally not worth the trouble. People can walk around in sack cloth for all I care!

    • DK … the bankers should be lined up and shot for a) what the did to this economy by gambling and b) for what they got away with.

      Since I’m playing it legit, I’ve felt like a damn fool. Last year we had to pay 36K EXTRA in taxes on top of what came out of our checks for me working 7 days a week and writing books and my wife working full time and going to nursing school full time.

    • I hate to be the one to break it to you but in most states YOU are still liable for the unpaid balance on a loan if the bank sells the property for less than what you owe.


      • Bama Dad,

        Though one must refer to their mortgage agreement for specifics, most of these are due to people using their home’s equity to pay of credit cards and other loans in a ‘consolidation’ loan.

        These extra ‘riders’ usually attach not only the house but all personal assets.

        There are ways to use such equity without such attachment – which usually requires a renegotiation of the entire mortgage.

        But most people went the easy way – a 2nd mortgage. Because of the 2nd position, these lenders hold a higher risk of non-payment. To keep their interest rates low, their contract also placed personal guarantees into the agreement to minimize default risk.

        It is too sad that most people have no training in financial affairs – the most central aspect of their lives – and they walk right into long term risk for short term gain all the time.

    • So DKII, I’ve been debating on just walking away from this one or making some comments. Comments won, I guess.

      They’ve been in the house 30 years, they still owe and owe lots, it sounds? It needs some updates, so it doesn’t sounds like regular remodeling/updating took place? I don’t get where the money has gone?

      Why aren’t you and your brother now contributing to their payments, as, you know, repayment for your tuition?

      Probably a lot of details missing but, I’m sorry, at first glance it appears your parents made some very poor financial decisions – perhaps many and often. BF mentions above about walking “into long term risk for short term gain”.

      If they walk away, someone, somewhere, will have to pay for this. Is that fair?

      • Hi Kathy,

        I can’t speak for DK, but I can ramble alittle about my situation. I’ve been paying this mortgage for 11 years of a thirty year mortgage. My intent was to work and pay it off, then sell upon retirement and move out to the country where I’m likely to end up much much sooner. My little 50K home is well kept and maintained, and was a great deal back in 1999, considering home prices, most similar homes were going for 60K or more, on the same street.

        Move forward to now, homes are being left empty, due to death of the aged retirees, bought up by those who wanted to invest in rental property, then chose to neglect the homes and just keep the profits. The bubble burst, the investors just walked, the home went to hell and were condemned, many or being tore down. The Govt. bought many homes and turned them into section 8 homes for the welfare rats, further diminishing home values, as well as raising the crime rates. My 50K home in 1999, is currently worth less than 30K. In 1999, there were less than 50 Section 8 homes on this side of town, today there is over 750.

        With that said, government, in all their wisdom and desire to help the poor, have managed to destroy what was a very peaceful and clean part of town. This occured before the housing bubble, and has gotten even worse since then. Now, when I’m out in the garage tinkering, I have a gun handy.

        So, in short, I still owe far more than the resale value, crime is getting worse and worse, and the economy is getting flushed down the toilet. What options would you suggest that I consider at this point in time?

        I’m considering a move to the country, do I sell and take a huge loss, or walk away and invest what I would have lost in my new homestead?


      • Let’s say, for the purpose of the discussion, that they renegotiated terms on the original mortgage such that there is no penalty for walking away other than losing the house itself to the bank. They actually could keep making the payments – they just don’t want to, since it makes much more economic sense for them not to, and they would free up a lot of their own time that is normally spent maintaining the house and grounds.

        I would say, if that’s what the contract says, there’s nothing wrong with taking advantage of it. The bank charges interest rates over long periods of time so that they can make enough money off of the people who can and do pay to make up for the relative few who walk away. If the banks who had over-extended themselves making risky loans had been allowed to fail, then there wouldn’t be a problem, as the healthy banks would’ve survived and probably started attaching more/stronger conditions to offered mortgages.

        The part I find interesting is if, in a free society, the neighbors would be able to sue for compensation of lost value on their own homes due to the foreclosure. (My guess – they could try, but would be mostly unsuccessful, due to much the same reason that the penalty for killing someone while drunk driving is so light – people would identify more with the perpetrator than the victim.)

      • Yes, it is fair.

        The agreement is if one makes payments, they eventually own the goods.

        If one fails to make payments, the loaner gets the goods.

        End of story.

        The forces of the elite want to make MORE of it, that there is a “DUTY” to pay. But there is not.

        There is no more duty to pay then they have a duty not to kick out your husband/wife and kids to live on the street or a back of a car. But they do, don’t they??

        They live by the rule of the agreement – you don’t pay, we get it.

        So you live by that rule too, if we don’t pay – you get it! 🙂

        Don’t bother paying a loan you cannot repay.

        Stop paying, save the payments and live rent free for the year to 18 months to evict.

        Take that saved money and start over. Let the bank deal with the house – that is the agreement.


        • PS: IF you exercise this strategy – DO keep the house in good repair until you leave.

          Any and all damages WILL follow you and courts will look very, very unkindly at such tactics of ‘revenge’.

          • Yes, I wouldn’t do that to my neighbors anyway, it would further harms their home values (I am having a major Deja Vue moment). In my case, the mortgage is not in my name, it’s i my ex girlfriends name, who just wanted to walk anyway and said I could live here for as long as I paid the bills. I’m not in a bad situation at all!


        • Good point BF!

          Not to mention the fact that most of what is paid in the first 10 years of a 30 year mortgage in interest. I did the math, and I’ve already paid for the home, insurance and taxes. Simply put, at this point in the game, the bank stands to lose nothing, they’ve received the money they loaned, plus some. What ever I pay now is profit for the bank, and a bad investment for me. I’m glad I looked at this harder, thanks to all who posted and thanks to DK for bringing it up.

          Peace my Friends!


        • Wow! Well somewhere along the line I was taught differently and I sure hope if my kids are reading this they listen to my approach and not yours….if you can’t afford it, you don’t get it. No fancy financing and no, I will not take out a 2nd mortgage to pay your student loan!

          • Kathy,

            What your reading into this is about responsibility. Yes, I can afford my home. Because of outside forces (government bleeding heart liberal ….) what was an investment, and a bad one at this point, has become a liability. It’s lost almost half of it’s value in the last five years. I’ve sent the bank more than what they loaned, they have been repaided in my mind. Everthing I pay in the future is added to some bankers bonus. Why wouldn’t you want your kids understanding this? If their home still has it’s value, they will stay, if not why continue to spend money like a drunk sailer that you can never get back? Look at a 30 year loan, and you will see that you’ll pay 3 times the actual value of the home when you bought it. It’s a ripoff, and a bad investment. I would like to just pay cash for what I want, this mortgage mess has taught me much.


          • Kathy,

            Do not misplace morality.

            You have a contract. If you fail, they will throw you to the wolves – contractually. They are heartless in these matters.

            So, why do you believe you hold a higher obligation that what has been set contractually? Why do you feel sorry for heartless and soul-less entities?

          • I’m with Kathy. Dont make a contract if you can’t live up to it. If I make a handshake agreement with you guys are you gonna stiff me too?

            • Anita,

              I agree with you when both sides are of an honest nature. But in this case, do you believe the bank(s) acted honestly and in equal favor?

              • Not buyin it G! A contract is a contract! If your house was in your name and you walk who’s gonna loan you any money for another house? Or for a vehicle for that matter. Right now you are messing with your ex’s credit. It’s her loss if you walk. I would not be amused if I was her.

                Friend of mine really gets me. Went bankrupt years ago. Somehow secures another loan. Gets under water. Goes bankrupt again. Then immediately retires from Ford. Large buyout-uses cash for next home which is dirt cheap just because the bubble burst. He comes out smelling like a rose. grrrr!

                • My good friend, you are thinking from the heart! I’m going to the bottom as to try to explain what has happened, and it will happen two more times before the 2012 elections. Below!

                • Anita,

                  The reasons (or not) anyone lends money to another is their business.

                  If a man chooses not to lend because of a past, so be it.

                  But a contract is a contract.

                  The agreement is the agreement.

                  You are putting things into it that do not exist.

                  That is dangerous.

                  • Just caught up to you BF. Now ,what?? We’re on the same page. But if you need another loan-good luck. Or am I missing something?

                    • Maybe, maybe not.

                      Perhaps the cost of the loan will be higher – or the down payment larger.

                      But there is always money out there one can borrow.

            • A contract is a contract.

              If in our handshake, we make a contract, then it is as binding as if we wrote it out.

              But do not put more into a contract that what is agreed.

              You agreed to pay for the house and if you cannot, they get the house.

              That is the entire agreement.

              You are PRETENDING that there is more – bu t believe me – there is not.

              The other side does not see more (though they will use your aggravated duty against you)

        • Alriiight!, Something just clicked in my head! Please don’t blast me if I’m wrong because I’ll pretend it anyway. I have a severe mental block about how a dollar can be worth less if they just print more. Holy Smokes! The housing problem showed me exactly what’s up. There are a ton of houses (dollars) available now and they (dollars) aren’t worth shit!

          • Anita,

            You got it!

            Dollars are just another economic good, like wheat, oranges, houses, cars, shoes, your labor, etc.

            Dollars follow the laws of economics too – if there are a lot of houses for sale, the price of the houses will fall (all other things being equal).

            Same with dollars. if there are a lot of dollars, the price of dollars will fall.

            What throws people into confusion is that we use dollars to price things.

            So how does the price of a dollar fall, when we use a dollar to create price?

            Or put it another way, how do you know how long a yard stick is if you measure everything with a yard stick?

            Well, you compare it the yard stick to everything else!

            If our yardstick shrinks, it would take more “yards” to make up the length of the wall. When that happens, we know the yard stick “shrunk”.

            Yesterday, it took 4 yard sticks to measure ‘that wall’, now it takes 5. The ‘price’ of the wall went up in terms of yardsticks. The number of yardsticks ‘inflated’.

            So when the price of dollars falls because there are too many dollars – the measure ‘shrinks’. It takes more dollars to buy the same good. We say “the price went up”, or inflation.

            • YAY. I’m with you…finally. I feel 10 pounds lighter. Didn’t think I’d ever understand that one. Now can you tell me how that star up there shining so brightly burned out 10000 years ago?

              • Which star?

                Most stars go through a life called the “Main Sequence” – which is the fusion of elements into heavier elements, all ending with Iron.

                The path of a star’s life depends on its mass (see this graphic) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/HRDiagram.png/270px-HRDiagram.png

                But very basically
                Hydrogen fuses to Helium, Helium into Lithium, Lithium to Boron, Boron to Oxygen and Oxygen to Iron.

                Each fusion requires a higher heat level – which causes the star to expand – moving from small, yellow to big red.

                Our sun will expand until its surface engulfs Mars – yes, the Earth will be consumed in a few billion years – eaten by the sun.

                When the reaction creates Iron, past this it is unsustainable. Iron builds on the core of the sun, absorbing energy.

                There is a tipping point, were the heat expansion can no longer resist the gravity – and the surface of the sun will collapse to the core.

                Our sun is too small, but if it was merely 25% bigger, the collapse would cause a super nova.

                The surface accelerates to the core – it will reach near-light speed – gaining more energy than all the combined star luminoist of every star in the galaxy.

                The collusion with the core will cause the galaxies greatest explosion – where instantly all the other elements heavier than lead will be created.

                The surface will be blown off, leaving an hot but dark iron core – a dark star.

                The materials created in the explosion will fly everywhere.

                Somewhere, these heavy elements will accumulate, and rebuild into another solar system.

                Those elements may combine to create complex molecules and those molecules may begin the processes of life.

                You exist because billions of years ago, stars were destroyed by this process. Life on this planet requires the heavy elements that can only be created in star explosions.

                You live because stars died.

                As Carl Sagan said the best;

                “We are made from star-stuff”

                • BF, How did I know you would come up with something for me? Is there anything you don’t know? I appreciate your effort but I cannot make my brain even read what you posted. I’m worse on science/astronomy than economics. Luckily, I’m good at math so I can help my son with fractions. Anything I can help you with on 6th grade math?

                  • Fractions are good!

                    You know the trick – I respond where I know I know (or think I know) and I’ll shut up where I don’t know squat.

                    This tactic always makes anyone look smart.

                    Yes, there is a whole lot I don’t know – just ask my wife!

                    Quote: “How can a guy as smart as you be so dumb???” At least she kisses me anyway.

                    Don’t ask me about car or mechanical repair, home repair, fixing water taps or toilets, or sewing. Don’t ask me to color coordinate clothes or house paint. And plants – I don’t know gardening. If you want plants to die, give them to me.

                    Or clean desks or working area – impossible. Living with me in my cave means stepping over a lot of books, paper and computer equipment. My wife hates this part of me the most.

                    Though I’ve suffered extreme personal injury with lots of blood, that doesn’t bother me at all; I can overcome my own pain and my own

                    If you are in serious physical trouble with lots of blood and gore, that won’t bother me either – both my father and father-in-law were instructors in emergency first-responder care so I am well trained. Been there done that.

                    But listening to other people ‘s story of suffering – makes my body ache physically.

                    I can’t stand it.

                    Do not tell me about your broken leg, the bad sprain, the cracked back… I’ll go “LAlLALALLALLA” out loud until you stop.

                    I know squat about the latest top-40 music, I do not know who is the big star in movies or TV.

                    I don’t watch sports or know who the sports kings are – all this talk of football on this site is foreign language to me – maybe hockey Stanley cup finals or the world series, but that’s it.

                    I don’t wear a watch, so don’t ask me the time.

                    I don’t wear jewelery at all – and I really don’t like wearing socks –

                    heck, I don’t really like wearing clothes – they irritate me.

                    Lucky for everyone, social norms prevent me from being naked all the time.

                    But I like wearing my black hat – go figure.

                    I don’t like light bulbs, but I like the sun.

                    I like the dark and especially if it pierced by a nice camp fire or fireplace. I hate mosquitoes but spiders and other bugs don’t bug me.

                    I don’t like cooking but I don’t mind cleaning up behind someone else’s cooking. Fortunately, that works well for my wife.

                    I don’t like loud music, unless its my music – which no one else likes to hear too loud.

                    I do not like slow drivers in a fast lane. I don’t like slow drivers in the slow lane if they are in front of me.

                    I love the Caribbean water but I cannot swim
                    so I stay out of it.

                    I love to fly but I do not like airlines.

                    I get very grouchy when I do not eat.

                    I hate going to bed and I hate waking up.

                    I hate shopping but can’t resist a good sale.

                    And I don’t hate – even if I may use the word a few times.

                    • You da man BF! But please don’t make my imagination wander about you sitting in your cave naked with your hat on. 🙂

  7. Mr Papandreou said a public sector pay freeze and fuel duty increases were essential because the economic crisis was propelling Greece towards a cliff.

    He said the EU was pressuring him to curb the budget deficit, which is four times higher than the 3% permitted.

    The prime minister said tough measures were needed in the face of such an “unprecedented crisis”, including a 10% cut in wages and spending in the public sector, a higher retirement age and an increase in fuel prices.

    He also pledged to go after tax evaders and said those who could afford to pay more would be forced to do so.

    (emphasis added)

    Greek economy ‘going over the cliff’ (BBC)
    Greece unveils austerity programme to cut deficit (BBC)

    Note the emphasis – the EU limits its members to a deficit of just 3% of the budget, for fear of de-stabilizing the currency (the Euro). The Greek deficit is at 12% and the whole place is freaking out about it. Greece is now in the beginning stages of a government default, reducing public sector wages and raising the retirement age while increasing taxes (ie: taking back government-promised money). The collapse will likely accelerate from here, unless/until another country/company bails them out ala Dubai. I don’t think the EU is too keen on that idea, however, due to its implications on the Euro, which all of the other members (UK excluded) are stuck with.

    Now, in the US, Obama has proposed a budget with a deficit that is over one third of the budget, yet there is not any particular immediate panic over this – just some lip-service paid to the idea of reducing the deficit. I take from that two things, 1) it’s good to be the reserve currency, as you’ll screw up everyone else before the consequences come back to hit you, and 2) when the consequences of this irresponsible fiscal policy finally do come back to bite us, it’s going to hit hard.

    • http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4294

      With Greece facing bankruptcy, the fears about Greece’s financial situation has led to a drop in value for the euro. Last week, the finance ministers of Germany and the Netherlands – the two eurozone countries which in pre-euro days had the strongest currencies in the EU: the German mark and the Dutch guilder – announced that they will not help Greece solve its problems. Polls indicate that 70% of the Germans oppose using their taxes to bail out other countries. Despite the EU propaganda line that EU citizens share a common European national identity, this is simply not true. As a leader in the Financial Times Deutschland noted earlier this month: “Spain believes in ‘more Europe’. Whether that’s the case for Germany as well one cannot be so sure any more.”

      Moreover, the German economy has also been badly affected by the crisis. Last year, Germany’s GDP fell by 5%, the biggest drop since the war, with a drop of 15% in exports and 20% in sales of German manufacturers. The German people are not prepared to lift countries such as Greece, Romania, Spain, Portugal and Ireland out of the recession at its own expense.

      There is also a lot of anger towards the Greeks in the other EU countries: for some years Greece seems to have covered up its bad economic performance by officially presenting better economic figures than was the case. The promise of the Greek government to reduce Greece’s budget deficit from 12.7% of GDP in 2009 to 2.8% in 2012, is being met with scepticism. Many doubt whether the government in Athens will be strong enough to resist the domestic pressure from the powerful trade unions against the radical deficit-cutting efforts which are needed, while others doubt that the Greeks will refrain from manipulating the economic data again.

  8. Representing government employees has changed the union movement’s priorities: Unions now campaign for higher taxes on Americans to fund more government spending. Congress should resist government employee unions’ self-interested calls to raise taxes on workers in the private sector.

    What is newsworthy, however, is another figure reported by the BLS: 52 percent of all union members work for the federal or state and local governments, a sharp increase from the 49 percent in 2008.[5] A majority of American union members are now employed by the government; three times more union members now work in the Post Office than in the auto industry.[6]

    Majority of Union Members Now Work for the Government (Heritage)

    Two key points here – the unions lobby for political favors and expand their influence within the government. At the same time, the private sector has fewer union members total (I think the public sector does not yet outweigh the private sector so the % would be even more disparate, but I’m not sure). The evolving work force has less of a need for unions in the information age, where employers who treat their employees badly soon find themselves without quality employees and at a competitive disadvantage. The private sector has, by and large, realized this, and as usual the government is moving backwards.

    It is no wonder that the unions are now using the government club to try and force more private workers into unions – they’re badly bleeding members in that market, and now have a vested interest in seeing the government power and influence grow in general.

  9. Spain’s unemployment rate near 19%:

    MADRID—Spanish jobless claims continued to surge in January as one of Europe’s worst economic downturns continued, government data showed Tuesday.

    Spanish jobless claims rose by 3.1% to 4 million in January from December, the labor ministry said in a statement. January jobless claims were up 22% from a year earlier.

    “January is a bad month for employment,” Employment Secretary Maravillas Rojo said, adding that in the past even during times of economic growth, unemployment would go up in that month. Joblessness in January rose mostly in the services sector, the labor ministry said.

    The government is aware that it needs to take new measures and on Friday it will outline proposals to fight unemployment, Ms. Rojo said.

    The global financial crisis precipitated the collapse of Spain’s labor-intensive housing market last year and pitched the wider economy into recession.

    While many of Europe’s large economies returned to growth in the third quarter of last year, Spanish output continued to contract.

    According to data released in late January by Spain’s National Statistics Institute, or INE, the country’s unemployment rate rose to 18.83% in the fourth quarter from 17.93% in the third quarter of last year. Spain has the EU’s second highest jobless rate behind that of Latvia.

    Spanish Jobless Claims Top Four Million (WSJ)

    Anyone more familiar with the problems in Spain? Were they really just overextended into the real estate/new house construction industry, and now facing the chickens coming home to roost? What do you think will be the government response here? My money’s on subsidizing new home construction and then giving those homes using subsidized loans/rent-controls to the poor/unemployed, to supposedly kill two birds with one stone.

    • DKII,

      Isn’t Spain supposed to have a “Green” economy? Weren’t they touted as being what we should aspire to?

      • That wouldn’t surprise me Cyndi. I know that most, if not all of the countries that actually tried to follow the carbon-limiting regulations have severely damaged their economies at the expense of those countries who ignored/flaunted the new rules.

  10. WELLINGTON, New Zealand – A New Zealand teenager who says she auctioned her virginity online for $32,000 to raise tuition money did not break any laws but it might be risky for her to follow through on the deal, police warned Wednesday.

    The anonymous 19-year-old student offered her virginity to the highest bidder on the Web site http://www.ineed.co.nz under the name “Unigirl,” saying she would use the money to pay for her tuition. She said in a post that more than 30,000 people had viewed her ad and more than 1,200 had made bids before she accepted an offer of more than New Zealand dollars 45,000 ($32,000).

    Prostitution is legal in New Zealand under laws considered more liberal than many countries. Prostitution among consenting adults is allowed in brothels and on the streets, and offering sexual services in print ads and online is also legal.

    New Zealand virgin auctions herself for tuition (Yahoo)

    Now, this I find interesting, just because New Zealand has an interesting culture – they have relatively high tax rates (38% on all income over $70,000 NZ ($50,000 US) plus a 12.5% VAT), mostly funding entitlements (retirement, unemployment, disability), but other than that the government generally stays out of the way, and the tax code is pretty simple and straightforward. They have very high prices on imports (due to high shipping costs divided amongst a low population) but a pretty low cost of living otherwise. They have a wide variety of climates across a pretty small area.

    Anyway, back on topic – despite how morally disgusting you may or may not find this act, should it be allowed? Is the girl a savvy moneymaker or needlessly risking her personal safety? Should the government step in to protect her from herself, or let her suffer the consequences of her own actions? Is there any legitimate reason for prostitution to be illegal, anywhere?

    • Kristian Stout says:

      Where I personally would never do such a thing it simply is not my place to judge this young woman on her actions. Personal responsibility is what this comes to. She made a choice and she has to deal with the consequnces of that choice. I don’t think that government has any business stepping in. I also have no problem with prostitution being legalized. I just don’t think the goverment has any business in situations like that.

  11. Hi USW,

    I’m glad your wife is doing better. She’s a lucky woman to have you in her life. May she have a speedy and permanent recovery.

    • Ditto on the wife, don’t hesitate to take time off from writing whenever needed.

      Looks like a good array of topics tonight, will check in again in the morning!

  12. Something useful from the now cancelled space program…


    Fault Responsible For Haiti Quake Slices Island’s Topography

    The sharp diagonal line exactly at the image center is the Enriquillo fault. Port-au-Prince is immediately to the left (north) at the mountain front and shoreline.
    A magnitude 7.0 earthquake occurred on January 12, 2010, at Port-au-Prince, Haiti, with major impact to the region and its citizens. This perspective view of the pre-quake topography of the area clearly shows the fault that is apparently responsible for the earthquake as a prominent linear landform immediately adjacent to the city.
    Elevation is color coded from dark green at low elevations to white at high elevations, and the topography is shaded with illumination from the left. The topography in this image is exaggerated by a factor of two.

    The sharp diagonal line exactly at the image center is the Enriquillo fault. Port-au-Prince is immediately to the left (north) at the mountain front and shoreline……

  13. Dear Mr. President…. It is quite possible that Texas has the answer. Consider this.

    1. For the last seven years, Texas has had a balanced budget without a tax increase.

    2. In place now, through true BI PARTISAN support, Texas has a rainy day fund that has been appropriated and is FUNDED with cash, and no tax increase and no stimulus money, not to be touched, in the event of loss of Federal funds for education and infrastructure and the rainy day funds are designated.

    3. Through TRUE Bi partisan support, the BALANCED budget has been set through 2015 in anticipation of an economic crash up to 25% loss ratio. All items have been prioritized to include health issues in Texas and funds have been appropriated, in cash, without tax increases to offset up to a 25% loss.

    4. Texas will not accept any stimulus money that requires it be continued with state funds after fed money runs out by statute through 2015.

    5. In order to accomplish this feat, we have a true separation of powers between the Governor and the Lt. Governor and the Secretary of State as well as the State Supreme Court.

    6. All debt and interest is in the balanced budget and there are no unfunded liabilities.

    We may not have all the answers but maybe there is a lesson to be learned.

    • Did I forget to mention, Mr. President, that the true unemployment rate in Texas is 7.9 % compared to the true National Unemployment rate of 17.4%?

  14. From Drudge:

    Wed Feb 03 2010 09:11:21 ET

    CBSNEWS anchorwoman and 60 MINUTES contributor Katie Couric faces a dramatic pay cut at the network, insiders tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

    CBS boss Les Moonves is determined to save money and trim expenses — from top to bottom — at the former crown jewel of broadcasting.

    Couric, the highest paid TV news personality in history, commands over $14 million a year, plus bumps for non-EVENING NEWS appearances.

    But her salary is now in the direct line of fire, network insiders explain, and a populist backlash against Couric’s cash is said to be forming inside the newsroom…….

    I can’t help but think she’s starting to get what she’s earned. The end of the article has a blurb about Dan Rather welling up with tears as he asks his messiah to save the press. Dan, you’re a pathetic human being. Go away.

    • Couric, shown in a, er, file photo at right, “makes enough to pay 200 news reporters $75,000 a year! It’s complete insanity,” one CBS News insider told the Drudge Report. “We report with great enthusiasm how much bankers are making, how it is out of step with reality during a recession. Well look at Katie!”

      The employee was referring to Couric’s roughly $14 million annual salary, the highest in network news. That salary may be cut dramatically in the face of massive layoffs at CBS News branches in Washington, San Francisco, Miami, London, Los Angeles and Moscow.

      CBS News has been one of the most outspoken networks against massive Wall Street bonuses and executive payments. The “Early Show” hosted economist Peter Morici late last year to whine that “it’s absolutely unfair for Wall Street to be paying itself record bonuses. The taxpayers made these bonuses possible by loaning Wall Street money at near zero rates. This is all quite unseemly and inappropriate.”

      Couric herself has also been critical on occasion. She said last year, “Pick up today’s Wall Street Journal and you’ll read banks and securities firms are on track to pay their employees record amounts this year. And, you pick up The New York Times and you’ll see some workers are being forced to take huge pay cuts.”

      Days later, she recounted on Evening News that “Taxpayers all over the country were outraged when they heard that companies they helped bail out turned around and gave their executives huge bonuses.”

      Couric probably would have been better off staying away from criticisms of executive bonuses. Her $300,000 per week salary was sure to raise eyebrows in the event of layoffs.

      Maybe as a rule of thumb, multi-millionaires should just avoid inciting class warfare, for their own sake if no one else’s.

      Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/02/03/katie-couric-gets-some-her-own-class-warfare-medicine-14m-salary#ixzz0eUbsKz90

  15. I guess we should be grateful that its only sixty shotguns they want…


    The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) intends to purchase sixty Remington Model 870 Police RAMAC #24587 12 gauge pump-action shotguns for the Criminal Investigation Division. The Remington parkerized shotguns, with fourteen inch barrel, modified choke, Wilson Combat Ghost Ring rear sight and XS4 Contour Bead front sight, Knoxx Reduced Recoil Adjustable Stock, and Speedfeed ribbed black forend, are designated as the only shotguns authorized for IRS duty based on compatibility with IRS existing shotgun inventory, certified armorer and combat training and protocol, maintenance, and parts.

    • Displaced Okie says:

      Hey Cyndi,
      Typically federal LE agencies are required carry 870’s(a relativly inexpensive police shotgun), but I have never seen an agency require all those bells and whistles. Looks to me like someone wants a tricked out 870 and wrote out the request as if all the upgrades are required. Of course the bigger question is why do Tax collecters, who are generally accountants, need shotguns? 🙂

      Stay safe and live Free,
      Displaced Okie

      • Why indeed. When coupled with the knowledge of the IRS hiring more agents, the state of the federal budget, and Dear Reader’s distain for the great unwashed he lords over, I’d say this isn’t a good thing. Like I said, fortunately, its only sixty weapons…this time.

    • Bottom Line says:

      Doublethink = Hypnotism

      A distraction and/or confusion combined with suggestion prompts a rationalization or false logic.

      It doesn’t make sense, so you make sense of it anyway, …and accept it as fact and/or reasonable.

      This is one of the most basic examples of hypnotism.

      Try confusing someone, and just about the time they have a confused look on their face, …make a suggestion.

      It takes little practice, but you will learn that it is surprisingly effective.

      Also, it helps if you can make your suggestion in a subtle way, rather than something direct and obvious.

      I.E. – inserting/hiding the suggestion into the middle of a a sentence.

      The subconscious mind interprets things differently than the conscious mind. One example I remember reading was a shrink trying to get his 5 year old to eat her dinner.

      He simply said “You don’t have to eat your dinner right now.”

      Consciously, she heard the sentence as it was stated, but her subconscious mind heard…

      …”You don’t have to EAT YOUR DINNER RIGHT NOW.”

      “EAT YOUR DINNER RIGHT NOW.” was the suggestion.

      She ate her dinner and has no idea why she was so willing.

      I love Psychology.


      • A supporting video!

        • Bottom Line says:

          I saw that a few months ago.

          Great find.

          We’re bombarded with images and messages all over the TV and other mediums.

          Many of which are designed to appeal to the emotional centers of our brain.

          Watch TV for an hour…


  16. Scarborough Shows Low Taxes = Low Unemployment in New Hampshire

    By Jeff Poor
    Tue, 02/02/2010

    Want proof low taxes work? Just take a look at the state of New Hampshire, as MSNBC “Morning Joe” host Joe Scarborough astutely pointed out.

    On the Feb. 2 broadcast of his MSNBC program, Scarborough interviewed Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, D-N.H. Shaheen’s home state was hosting a jobs town hall put on by President Barack Obama and Scarborough used the occasion for a teachable moment.

    “Now, usually none of us would celebrate unemployment rates of 7 percent,” Scarborough said. “But that is not only well below the national average, but your neighbor, Rhode Island, to the south of you now sitting with a 13 percent unemployment rate. What’s New Hampshire doing right?”
    Story Continues Below Ad ↓

    According to Shaheen, it was a diversified economy and a sound climate for business, where regulation doesn’t interfere.

    “Well, hopefully, as you say, we’re going to be able to reduce that 7 percent even lower,” Shaheen said. “But I think we’ve got a diversified economy. We’ve got a place where people want to live. We’ve got a wonderful quality of life. It’s a beautiful state. It’s a state where we’ve tried to limit regulation, where we’ve tried to make the cost of doing business affordable for businesses.”

    However, Scarborough pointed out one key difference in New Hampshire compared to other states – no state income tax and no sales tax.

    SCARBOROUGH: You all don’t have a state income tax, do you? [“Morning Joe” co-host Mike] Barnicle just told me that.
    SHAHEEN: We have neither a state income nor sales tax.
    SCARBOROUGH: That will do it. I’m moving to New Hampshire.
    BRZEZINSKI: That’s very helpful.
    SHAHEEN: But actually, we do have business profits tax.
    SHAHEEN: And a payroll tax of sorts.
    SCARBOROUGH: Yeah, but that’s good, though.
    SHAHEEN: We also try and work with the private sector and partner in a way that we get the best bang for our buck when we look in government.

    Scarborough, a former Florida Republican congressman, explained that if other states were to follow New Hampshire’s lead, particular states that border large metropolitan areas, they would reap the rewards of people fleeing higher taxes.

    “Wow, isn’t that something?” Scarborough said. “You know, Connecticut used to have a low tax structure. And when they did, unemployment was lower. They had no income tax. If they still had no income tax, I guarantee you a lot of people with a lot of money in New York City would be living in Connecticut right now and increasing that tax base exponentially. But isn’t that something? And I guess Rhode Island has high tax rates.”

    And Scarborough is right. As the Tax Foundation shows, the 2010 business tax climate ranks Rhode Island 44th out of 50 states. Rhode Island’s state/local tax burden is the 10th highest nationwide and its individual income tax system are the fifth highest nationally. New Hampshire on the other hand according to the Tax Foundation is the seventh business friendly nationally, has one of the nation’s “most simple and inexpensive” individual income tax systems and has a state/local tax burden percentage ranks 46th highest in the nation.

    Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeff-poor/2010/02/02/scarborough-shows-low-taxes-low-unemployment-new-hampshire#ixzz0eUarFC5t

  17. test.. now my posts are getting lost

  18. Judy Sabatini says:

    Hello Everyone

    USW, I hope your wife is doing much better, please, take what ever time necessary to make sure she gets the loving care you provide for her. You’re a saint of a husband in my book, and she’s so very lucky to have you in her life. God Bless you both.

    Just tying to catch up on all the reading here for tight now.

    Hope all is having a great day today.


  19. Hi Ya’ll! 🙂

    Here’s a few excepts from an e-mail I received today. It’s taoghting a book called aftershock, but here are some of the claims:

    Here is the REAL State of the Union. . .

    In a speech last year, Dallas Federal Reserve Bank President Richard Fisher stated that the total U.S. debt — including Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security — is more than $100 TRILLION!

    It’s impossible to get out of this hole. In a good year, you and your fellow Americans give the government $2.5 trillion in taxes. It will take some really clever national accounting to make that work.

    The future that President Obama is helping to create will bring about an economic catastrophe that will decimate the wealth of millions of hardworking Americans.

    I will host this exclusive Web summit with Fox News analyst Dick Morris, along with Aftershock co-author Robert Wiedemer. Joining us will be former Libertarian vice-presidential nominee Wayne Allyn Root and Newsmax Financial Brain Trust member and international currency expert Sean Hyman.

    On this must-see broadcast, we will discuss:

    The coming devaluation of the U.S. dollar. . . what it means to you. . . and ways to profit from this inevitable outcome
    The federal government’s reckless overspending — and what you can do about it
    The prospects of devastating inflation, crippling interest rates, and the collapse of our financial system
    How your house, insurance, and other once-sound investments will hold up in a future of economic chaos
    And most importantly, how to position all of your investments (not just gold) to multiply safely in the years ahead


    Any input from our resident economic folks? There are tons of articles about much the same thing all over the net, why, I wonder, the MSM isn’t touching on this much?


    • G-Man,

      More ideas from more people is a good thing – as long as you make it relative to one’s self. Only you know whats good for you.

      The MSM is the mouth piece of the regime. It will tickle a bit to the outside, but you can count on it to pump the message of “Good old days are coming tomorrow!” to the weak minded – meaning this will work on most voters.

    • Its possible ( I know, not likely ) these guys know more about the economy than even Flag (but they are not as much fun ).


  20. Bottom Line says:

    AHH, The power of the internet.

    I woke up this morning, went to the bathroom, fixed some coffee, turned on the TV, flipped through to the weather report, and then on to the start of “FOX and Friends”.

    I only caught about a half an hour of the broadcast as I fell back asleep.

    I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that …If I didn’t know better, I would guess that Mrs. Carlson caught wind of my post/reply last night about camera angles.

    I say this because I noticed that instead of having her knees together as usual, her legs remained crossed from the start. And I could have sworn I saw her start to adjust her seating position a couple of times, and then stop as to avoid being too revealing. She wouldn’t budge. I even thought I saw a subtle smirk on her face as she did so.

    Then a few minutes later she made a reference to “no pun intended”.

    I thought to myself “No way!..She actually read that. HOLY SH*T!”

    So, If I am correct, and not just imagining things…

    …and you are indeed listening Mrs. Carlson…

    I would like to, first, apologize for any embarrassment I may have caused with my post.

    and secondly, clarify that I meant no disrespect by it.

    I was more so picking on the camera man for being a pig like the rest of us men.

    I know virtually nothing about you Mrs. Carlson but If I had to guess, …you are an absolute gem of a woman and didn’t deserve that.

    Anyway, Have a nice day.

    • Now that’s funny! I hope they are reading. The MSM, all of them could use the valuable education that their respective colleges did not provide, and could get it right here, for free. Then again, the colleges might sue USW for exposing them for the ripoff that they are! 🙂


      • Bottom Line says:

        I’ve seen things mentioned in here a day or so before they’re mentioned on FOX commentaries, …so it’s perceivable to me that there are a few of them reading SUFA.

        As subtle as it is, I still catch it…But that kinda threw me this morning.

    • Had to go back and catch up with what you put up yesterday to make sense of this…..shame on you BL!!!

      Little trivia, Gretchen’s babysitter growing up was Michelle Bachman the Representative from Minnesota.

      • Bottom Line says:

        Perhaps I’ve caused myself a little embarrassment as well.

        Who knows though, By drawing attention to it, I may have unwittingly put a camera man in check. (I’ve actually seen him slightly lower the camera while she’s looking away.)

        …unless of course they’re(producers) doing it on purpose. Sex sells and they know it.

        Why do you think they have all of those beautiful women at FOX?

        A: Eye candy for men.

        • OK BL, you can do better than hoping to catch a glimpse up the skirt of the morning news show anchor………

          • Bottom Line says:

            I think you missed the point Kathy.

            You seem to have me confused with the camera man.

            I don’t watch FOX n Friends but maybe twice a week.

            I don’t watch FOX n Friends because I’m waiting for a panty shot.

            When I do watch, I watch it because I’d rather hear conservative garbage rather than liberal garbage.

            To be clear, It rather annoys me as it is a distraction.

            Understand…ALL MEN ARE PIGS. Some may hide it better than others, but none the less, we are all pigs.

            I use that term loosely. It’s just simply in our nature to be motivated by sexual ideas.

            So, when I’m watching the morning show, I can’t help but to notice what the camera man is doing…hence the distraction of Mrs. Carlson’s exquisite legs.

            I just want to watch conservative garbage.

            • Wait a minute BL! Just because I appreciate the beauty of an attractive women, now I’m a pig? First, there is not many things more enjoyable than for a heterosexaul male enjoying the wonderful vision of an attractive female, which ofcourse, I appreciate in excess, but, why is that a problem that requires a negative assumption that I, as a man, am a Pig? 😆

              I am not a pig, just blessed with being naturally horny! 🙂


              • Bottom Line says:


                I said I use the term loosely.

                Just a thought, but there is a double meaning to…

                “FOX” News Channel.

                Where do they find these women?

                Are they even real?

                Where do women like Shannon Bream come from?

                Are there more like her there?


                Oink – Oink

                • They do have some nice looking ladies, don’t they?

                • Shannon Bream is gorgeous; the rest of that conversation I’ll leave to you guys!

                  • Bottom Line says:

                    Gorgeous indeed.

                    Beautiful in fact.

                    …could easily make a grown man cry.

                    BTW, I made a point to watch F&F this morning. My viewing was kinda broke up but I caught most of it.

                    Yeah, they’re listening.

                    I’m feeling pretty shitty at the notion of how awkward I must have made her feel.

                    I’m just gonna stop talking about it before I do any more damage.

  21. Hey Anita, how’d your unbeaten Spartans do last night?

    • Well here’s my story and I’m stickin to it: Wisconsin 13-0 @ home, 1 sprained ankle and 7 minutes without a basket does not equal a W ! However–MSU has the all time series 68-59 🙂

  22. Judy Sabatini says:

    Hey All

    My son said that some of the professors at UNR also have a sneaky way of bashing republicans, but have tendencies to praise the Democrats and all the great things they’re doing. He has even gotten into some debates with the students and professors about the issues that are going on now.

    It just amazes me that even though he is in college to learn medicine, some how, some way, the political discussion comes up.

    An Ohio high school teacher’s giving students job applications for a Democratic organization that included suggested radical reading material has raising concerns of indoctrination in the classroom.

    The government teacher at Perry High School in Massillon, Ohio, handed out forms recruiting students to intern for Organizing for America, a grassroots organization with direct ties to the Democratic National Committee and the successor organization for Obama for America.

    Included on the forms was a suggested reading list that included Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals” and Organizing for America’s mission to build on the “movement that elected President Obama by empowering students across the country to help us bring about our agenda of change.”

    No Republican equivalent was offered to the students, according to Perry schools’ Superintendent John Richard.

    In an interview with FoxNews.com on Wednesday, Richard acknowledged that distribution of the forms violated school policy and said they were never submitted to school administrators for approval, but the teacher remains on the job.

    “We don’t take sides politically, nor should we, and we certainly would not support students being indoctrinated politically or religiously or anything along those lines,” he said.

    Richard said the social studies teacher, whom he did not name, had no intent of proselytizing his students and was “given the material by another person.” Richard said he “addressed” the issue with the teacher, though he declined to say what disciplinary action, if any, had been taken.

    “The teacher should have looked through this material,” Richard said.

    Reaction to the forms, first posted on the conservative blog site, Atlas Shrugs, has sparked national outrage, particularly in the blogosphere. Some bloggers called it a “sick intrusion” and said it was nothing more than an attempt to indoctrinate students, while another, Elliott Cook, wrote: “This is all voluntary!!! No one is forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want to do.”

    One blogger claiming to be the parent of a girl in the class, wrote that students were given no option of signing up for a Republican internship.

    “The only handout was this one,” blogger Gracenearing wrote. “My daughter even asked if there was anything else.”

    The school also has been bombarded with e-mails calling for Richard to be fired, along with Perry High School principal Don Gregoire.

    “I’ve been told to go apply in Cuba for a job,” Richard said, adding that angry e-mailers have labeled him a communist.

    In a Feb. 1, 2010, letter obtained by FoxNews.com, Gregoire apologized to parents, saying the incident was “not acceptable.”

    “We apologize that your son or daughter was given this information without approval,” Gregoire wrote. “This error in following Board Policy has been addressed and has been clearly communicated to staff.”

  23. Judy Sabatini says:

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  24. Anita and Kathy!

    I certainly see your heartfelt points. But you have been fooled by the elite. For years, maybe decades, the banks have been giving loans to people for homes. At one point, due to the desire of our wonderful government, home ownership was expanded to many who could not afford to pay the mortgage. The banks and the govt. knew this, but it was important over the span of two decades or more to do this. Why?

    Simple answer. Over time the price of homes rose a lot (housing bubble). During this period of low interest rates and what was considered low payments, millions bought homes, that as the loans matured, the banks and govt knew they couldn’t pay for, which is exactly what they wanted.

    Basically, with a conventional 30 year loan, if you pay it off, the total cost of your home would be over 3 times what you paid for it. The banks, through interest, will have reclaimed their money within ten years, if not sooner.

    The govt and the banks decided that they would cause this bubble to occur, because this bubble didn’t cost the banks anything, they got as much as they could from the loan taker, that they knew couldn’t pay long term, now they own the property, which they effectivly charged the fooled homeowner to maintain, and now they can resell it at it’s actual worth, rather that the artificial high cost that all this buying caused to begin with.

    Now the perfect ripoff is about to occur. Many who survived the first bubble, will now encounter a second bubble this summer, which will drive home prices down even further. Now those that have paid for 15-20 years have a 100K house, that they have already paid 200K for, which is now worth 50K. If many of these folks walk, the bank has 200K in payments, for a 100K loan and will now own a 50K piece of property, that they can sell, under the same terms and do it all over again in 20 years. Sounds like an honest deal too me 🙄

    Now the best part is the third bubble, in 2011, that will put many who are about to pay off their loans, in complete befuddlement. They have a 100K house for 25-30 years, that they have paid 300K for, that will now be worth 75K or less. The banks have their money and don’t care if you walk or not!

    You have been fooled by the illusion of home ownership, which, unless you pay cash for, is just that an illusion. The banks get their money, and get the property back to resell again. The scheme will just continue, because you want to “be responsible” and pay of your contract with very people who are ripping you off everyday. That’s not being very responsible to the person you see in the mirror, it’s being fooled by thieves.


    • G ! You’re lucky you’re not in Mich right now ! Did you read my situation up top? I DID pay cash for everything I have. To the tune of $350k ! Now because everyone decides to walk from their debt, I have lost half my net worth. What kinda fair is that?

      • I read your posts. No it’s not fair, but your blaming the wrong people. The housing bubble was created, for the elite to make maximum profit. They did. Now, your at least not paying interest, which is where I’d like to be.

        I’m sorry if I seemed like I was putting you down, not the case at all. You did well, you are not a slave to a bank. Not the case for many others. You can hold on, and if we don’t have a complete economic collapse, there will be another bubble in 20 or so years and you can sell high to maximize your investment. The trash will be tore down, which will make your property more valuable later, be patient! If you don’t need to sell, your in good shape.


        • I didn’t think you were beating on me :). And yes the banks have their faults too. BUT!….you knew there was a “but” coming….it’s still all boils down to you. Check this out– when I went for a loan for my property the bank said sure we’ll give you this loan and it will work like this…you pay X for 5 yrs then the loan would be due. The balance after 5 was 1k less than the original loan amount. I told them to keep their loan. I could have taken it but realized it was a poor decision. Why do I have to suffer now?

          • How are you suffering, other than in your business, which your not the lone ranger there. Your equating to what is the less value of your property vs. what you paid, but it’s still your property, not the banks. Your impression of lower value of property is not forever, I hope. How does tat equate to suffering?

            • I’m suffering because I’m 200k short right now

              • If your speking of the property you own, your not short nothing, you have property. It’s value is what you make of it. If it was bought to sell at a profit later, the elites screwed you.

                • I understand G. It was all a big scam. I’m not giving up my property but my pocket sure feels light. I should have saved my money til now and bought the property at half price :). But then you’ll get me going on that. Lost at least 15k on my daughter’s college fund. 😦

                • Gman…..I am having a really hard time understanding the “scam” or the “screwed” that you are espousing. I further do not understand the lack of integrity that you espouse…IF I am reading you correctly. (I may have misinterpreted your reasoning).

                  Let me explain my reasoning for this.

                  You want a home. (This is not a scheme). You do not have the money. (This is not a scheme). Joe Tent Peg, aka: First Ripoff Bank of OZ (FRBO)has more money than God. (This is not a scheme and , in your terms, makes him an ELITE). You now have a choice. Do I want my house so badly, that I will borrow money from this “shark” to do it. (This is not a scheme…it is a choice). So, you go to the FRBO and ask for money. He has a commodity called money to loan and does so in a manner totally favorable to him/her and does not give a tinkers damn about you. (This is not a scheme nor a ripoff. It is his way of doing business). A contract or mortgage is prepared in terms that are entirely favorable to FRBO. (This is his way of protecting his money and making a profit but I fail to see the scheme. Scheme to me = sneaky, underhanded). You do NOT have to enter the agreement or sign the mortgage. No one is forcing you to except for your own desire to own a home. No one guarantees an increasing value. Property is like anything else..it goes up and it goes down depending upon the economy and the whims of the appraisers. But the appraisers would not be involved until you sign the agreement. It is indeed unfortunate that there are policies that happen from time to time that affect values, ie. inflation, deflation, devalued dollars, etc..but that is called risk. So why is the fault of the so called ELITE and “fooled by the illusion” of home ownership? How can one be “fooled” into anything? Trust the banks…HA. Trust the Real Estate Brokers….HA. Trust the government….HA. There is no excuse, in my opinion, for signing something you do not understand and no excuse for not understanding the basic economics of value because everyone deals with it from day to day….starting with the 6 year old and selling or trading baseball cards.

                  Which brings me to the word integrity. As Anita puts it, we teach our children integrity and honesty. If you sign an agreement in good faith, then you should be bound by that agreement morally and objectively and legally. So when a mortgage company or bank gets three times the value of a piece of property that you agreed to on your own volition, where do you justify walking away by saying that it was the fault of the banks or the Elite or government and, therefore, acceptable and not a moral issue or integrity violation…assuming you define integrity and morality the same as I. (I guess that can be an argument by itself).

                  Let me be the first to say, that I do not trust banks, mortgage companies, nor the government. I have no debt and no mortgage. I had one mortgage, my first, and parlayed that into cash when I recognized the housing bubble in the 80’s. Sold high and have been on cash since. I do have land and property that changes with the wind in value…including gold and coins and other hard tradeable items. Look at gold over the last three years. If you have it listed on a balance sheet, the value, right now, is inflated and will remain so until the current crises is over and then it will fall like a rock…in my opinion. But I will NOT take that balance sheet and use the inflated value to purchase anything on credit…it may not be there next year.

                  So when the government, through it’s absurd policies, jacks with the economy and forces issues that inflate or deflate….that is a roll of the dice that anyone takes when purchasing something. Who knows what the government will do next but it is my responsibility to be on the lookout and protect my self the best way that I know. But walking away from contracts, assuming that you do not have that provision in it, is not ethical. Why have one at all? Walking away from a contract because you have a financial dilemma that makes it inevitable is a different horse but one should not be upset at the ding they take on credit or credit worthiness, or personal liability, if you so entered that agreement.

                  Sorry but I do not think you can justify and blame banks and government and the Elite for something you entered into on your own. Lord knows I want to…and I do not think it fair…but that is the way it is.

                  It seems to me that you feel that the Elite (banks, I guess) and the government are all “conspiring” to make people fail for sinister reasons. Is this the justification you seek or recommend? DO I understand you correctly?

    • I guess I see it differently as well, for the regular folk. First, we’ve never had a 30 year mortgage simply because of the ultimate cost of the home and secondly, we’ve always paid extra principal each and every month. I remember our very first home and talking with a banker about how much home we were “elgible” to buy. We told them they were crazy. Same thing with our next/existing home.

      I know G, the whole housing bubble/reckless lending practices that have gone on, but this conversation started with DKII parents and from how I interpreted his post, this wasn’t the situation there, or at least not fully.

      • Kathy,
        I read Dk’s post, and understood what was happening. It’s not about being responsible to those that are stealing from you from the start, it’s about being responsible for not being ripped off to begin with. I’m about as normal as anyone, don’t have a pot to piss in that I didn’t pay cash for the last 4 years. I have been bank free since 2006, and other than this house payment, that’s not in my name, I owe nothing to noone. I qualify for many govt aid programs it’s sickens me. But, I live within my means, with NO govt help.

        As far as my ex GF, we both knew that me keeping this house was short term, I’m just delaying the future to get some things done with the child. She, understood what I’m saying here, and was fine with the eventual outcome. We seperated amicably, and on good terms. We still talk occasionally.

        Hope that helps some. Not meaning to be a shithead, just fed up with the Feds!


    • Bottom Line says:

      As strange as it sounds, I’m glad I’m poor and was never able to afford a home.

      As a rule, I don’t use credit…Simply because I don’t like the thought of long-term risk taking. The only time I’ve ever taken out a loan was the car I bought for the ex and I when in the service. (I had a steady, virtually guaranteed income)

      If life has taught me anything, it is just how quickly things can change.

      Everything I have(which isn’t much), I own outright, paid for with cash.

      You should have seen the look on the car dealer’s face when I paid for my truck with hundreds.

      Expecting a check, He asked for the number to my bank to verify available funds. I pulled out a fat wad and started laying bills on his desk.

      His face lit up like it was Christmas morning.

      • Not that he cared but he probably thought you were dealing drugs 🙂

        • In many cases your right! 🙂

          I’ve had to edumacate a few salesman myself on their little assumptions!


        • Bottom Line says:

          Funny that you mention that Anita.

          I had just quit a job because I figured out it was really a project to launder LOTS of coke money.

          No wonder I was the only one working my ass off. I actually thought it was about being productive.

          • Nice guys finish last BL. Speaking of laundering… Did you see above what I do for a living? I’ll launder some of that coke money 🙂

            • Bottom Line says:


              I wasn’t real comfortable there. They weren’t a real trustworthy crowd to work with.

              Looking back, I suspect they tricked me into transporting kilos a couple of times.

              Which pisses me off frankly.

              If I would have got caught…”I honestly didn’t know it was there” wouldn’t have saved me from prison.

              As soon as I realized what was going on,

              …I made like a dad and left.

              Glad I got outta there without incident.

  25. This one’s for the ladies!


    Barbara Walters, of 20/20, did a story on gender roles in Kabul, Afghanistan, several years before the Afghan conflict.

    She noted that women customarily walked five paces behind their husbands.

    She recently returned to Kabuland observed that women
    still walk behind their husbands. Despite the overthrow of the
    oppressive Taliban regime, the women now seem to, and are happy to, maintain the old custom.

    Ms. Walters approached one of the Afghani women and asked, ‘Why do
    you now seem happy with an old custom that you once tried so desperately to change?’

    The woman looked Ms.. Walters straight in the eyes, and
    without hesitation said, “LANDMINES.”

    Moral of the story is (no matter what language you speak or where you go):


  26. Bottom Line says:

    Alright Y’all

    I’m off to bed.

    Take care and sleep well everyone.


  27. Found this today.

    • Good find Birdman! Funny its on the Auto channel.

      This seems to have links to everything related to AGW.


      The year was 1988, and Colorado Senator Tim Wirth had arranged for Hansen to testify on the subject before the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee to help sell the dire need to enact national environmental legislation. As Wirth has since admitted, he intentionally scheduled Hansen’s appearance on what was forecasted to be the hottest day of the hearings. And in a brilliantly underhanded marketing ploy, he and his cohorts actually snuck into the hearing room the night before and opened the windows, rendering the air conditioning all but useless.

      Imagine the devious beauty of the scene that unfolded in front of the cameras the next day — a NASA scientist preaching fire and brimstone, warning of “unprecedented global warming” and a potential “runaway greenhouse effect,” all the while wiping the dripping sweat off his brow. No wonder the resultant NY Times headline screamed, “Global Warming Has Begun, Expert Tells Senate.”

      And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how climate hysteria and not one, but two of its shining stars were born. For coincidentally, that was the same year the IPCC was established by the U.N. Its mandate: to assess “the scientific, technical and socioeconomic information relevant for the understanding of the risk of human-induced climate change.”

  28. Seems like our president has learned at least one lesson. He’s speaking at the national prayer breakfast this morning

  29. This article falls in line with much that was talked about yesterday, ie, staying vs. walking when home value has dropped.

    Congresswoman urges we use Squatter’s Rights

    Toledo Congresswoman, Marcy Kaptur (D), is telling homeowners facing foreclosure to stay put. But, is it legal?


  30. Kristian Stout says:

    I thought that this might be of interest to everyone here:

    • Kristian Stout says:

      It seems that Dear Reader has decided that we don’t need to control this asset any longer. Even though we invented it. He wants instead to hand it over to a foreign entity where we will then have to worry about being censored. Goodbye freedom of speech, it was nice knowin ya!

    • “The surrender of the Internet will spell disaster for our nation, financially, as well as for safety, security and our standing as a great power that values freedom and the free exchange of ideas and information.:”

      Thus, the Manchurian Teleprompter wastes little time……..more writing on the wall for those of us paying attention.

  31. False email making the rounds,

    Now President Obama has directed the United States Postal Service to REMEMBER and HONOR the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a new commemorative 42 Cent First Class Holiday Postage Stamp..

    REMEMBER to adamantly & vocally BOYCOTT this stamp, when you are purchasing your stamps at the post office.

    All you have to say is “No thank you, I do not want that Muslim Stamp on my letters!”


    Email claims that US President Obama has directed the US Postal Service to release a new stamp that honours the Muslim EID holiday season (Full commentary below).

    Such stamps do exist but they are not new and they were not issued on the order of President Obama. They were first issued in 2001 and have been reissued several times since.

  32. Ok, so my creative juices are flowing this morning. So Let’s have some fun, shall we?

    I’ve had Boogie-Woogie Bugle Boy in my head for a week (thanks Judy!). Let’s make up some now lyrics. I’ve pasted the known lyrics below to help ya’ll out. Maybe, when we’re done, we can send it to Big Hollywood or Paul Shanklin! 😉 Here’s the
    first verse:

    He was a famous con man from out Chicago way,
    He had a teleprompter no one else could play.
    He was the top man at craft,
    But then the voters stood up,
    and he was off to the top,
    He’s in Blight House now,
    kill’n our freedom,
    He’s the Commie Jug-earred Jackass
    who’s here to stay!

    Am I bad, or what??

    He was a famous trumpet man from out Chicago way
    He had a boogie rhythm that no one else could play
    He was the top man at his craft
    But then his number came up and he was gone with the draft
    He’s in the army now, blowing reveille
    He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B

    They made him blow a bugle for his Uncle Sam
    It really brought him down because he could not jam
    The captain seemed to understand
    Because the next day the cap’ went out and drafted a band
    And now the company jumps when he plays reveille
    He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B

    A-toot, a-toot, a-toot-diddelyada-toot
    He blows it eight-to-the-bar, in boogie rhythm
    He can’t blow a note unless the bass and guitar is playing with him
    He makes the company jump when he plays reveille
    He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B

    He was some boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B
    And when he plays boogie woogie bugle he was buzy as a “bzzz” bee
    And when he plays he makes the company jump eight-to-the-bar
    He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B

    Toot-toot-toot, toot-diddelyada, toot-diddelyada
    Toot, toot, he blows it eight-to-the-bar
    He can’t blow a note unless bass and guitar is playing with him
    And the company jumps when he plays reveille
    He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B

    He puts the boys asleep with boogie every night
    And wakes ’em up the same way in the early bright
    They clap their hands and stamp their feet
    Because they know how he plays when someone gives him a beat
    He really breaks it up when he plays reveille
    He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B

    Da-doo-da da-doo-da-da da
    Da-doo-da da-doo-da-da da
    Da-doo-da da-doo-da-da da
    Da-doo-da da-doo-da-da
    And the company jumps when he plays reveille
    He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B!

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      Hey Cyndi

      And I can actually hear the Andrew sister’s singing that.

    • Pretty good Cyndi,


      Men Are Just Happier People– What do you expect from such simple creatures. Your last name stays put. The garage is all yours. Wedding plans take care of themselves. Chocolate is just another snack. You can never be pregnant. You can wear a white T-shirt to a water park. You can wear NO shirt to a water park. Car mechanics tell you the truth. The world is your urinal. You never have to drive to another gas station restroom because this one is just too icky. You don’t have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt. Same work, more pay. Wrinkles add character. Wedding dress $5000. Tux rental-$100. People never stare at your chest when you’re talking to them. New shoes don’t cut, blister, or mangle your feet.

      One mood all the time.

      Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat. You know stuff about tanks. A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase. You can open all your own jars. You get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness. If someone forgets to invite you, he or she can still be your friend.

      Your underwear is $8.95 for a three-pack. Three pairs of shoes are more than enough. You almost never have strap problems in public. You are unable to see wrinkles in your clothes. Everything on your face stays its original color. The same hairstyle lasts for years, maybe decades. You only have to shave your face and neck.

      You can play with toys all your life. One wallet and one pair of shoes — one color for all seasons. You can wear shorts no matter how your legs look. You can ‘do’ your nails with a pocket knife. You have freedom of choice concerning growing a moustache.

      You can do Christmas shopping for 25 relatives on December 24 in 25 minutes.

      No wonder men are happier.

    • v. Holland says:

      “He was a famous trumpet man from out Chicago way
      He had a boogie rhythm that no one else could play
      He was the top man at his craft
      But then his number came up and he was gone with the draft
      He’s in the army now, blowing reveille
      He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B”

      He was a famous con man from out Chicago way,
      He had a teleprompter no one else could play.
      He was the top man at craft,
      But then his speech was heard, and people became daft
      He’s in the white house now, blowing stupid crap.
      He’s the newest socialist jerk and we all better watch out.

    • v. Holland says:

      “They made him blow a bugle for his Uncle Sam
      It really brought him down because he could not jam
      The captain seemed to understand
      Because the next day the cap’ went out and drafted a band
      And now the company jumps when he plays reveille
      He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B”

      They made him pretend to be a centrist for the populist
      It really brought him down because he had to hide his bliss
      Pelosi and Reid seemed to understand
      Because the next day they went our and made a stand
      And now the country screams when he plays politics
      He’s the new socialist jerk who plays us for his kicks.

      • v. Holland says:

        “A-toot, a-toot, a-toot-diddelyada-toot
        He blows it eight-to-the-bar, in boogie rhythm
        He can’t blow a note unless the bass and guitar is playing with him
        He makes the company jump when he plays reveille
        He’s the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B”

        A-toot, a-toot, a-toot-diddelyada-toot
        He spouts his views to the far left choir
        He won’t speak the truth because he won’t go far
        He makes the country jump when he plays politics
        He’s the socialist jerk of Washington DC

        • v. Holland says:

          That was fun and defiantly released stress but I think I’m done now. 🙂 Thanks Cindy

          • v. Holland says:

            Someone really should do the last verse and 1/2

          • You’re good! It IS fun, isn’t it? I’ll have to be careful about those lyrics. They have Kareoke here on Friday nights. I’d hate to get up the and have the wrong words come out, LOL!

  33. Lott has some interesting articles this week.


    4th grader in trouble for bringing Lego policeman to school

    The young boy was playing with Lego. His father is a retired police officer. There is no differentiation between something that could be confused to be a real gun and something that is so obviously a toy.

    A tiny toy led to big trouble for one fourth-grade New York City boy.

    Patrick Timoney, a 9-year-old student at PS 52 in Staten Island, N.Y., was in the school cafeteria Tuesday playing with LEGOs when he was taken to the principal’s office and threatened with suspension. One of his toys was a LEGO policeman that holds a 2-inch plastic gun. The school has a no-tolerance policy when it comes to toy guns.

    “[The gun] was so little,” the boy told WNBC. “I wouldn’t really think that the principal would cause a lot of commotion just for a little gun.”

    The boy’s mother, Laura Timoney, 44, was fuming over the issue.

    “You don’t traumatize a child who loved to go to school, who wanted to be early every day to school, you don’t make him cry, you don’t make him fill out statements,” she told WNBC, holding back tears. “You don’t do it.”

    Pat Timoney, the boy’s father and a retired police officer, was also upset, saying that he’s dealt with people who use imitation weapons as a way to threaten others and commit crimes, and that this situation is different, considering the pinky-size gun in question. . . .

  34. Judy Sabatini says:

    I sure hope they find this little boy, and bring him back home safe.

    Amber Alert Issued After Boy, 4, Abducted From Ga. Mobile Home Park

    Thursday, February 04, 2010

    COBB COUNTY, Ga. — The Georgia Bureau of Investigation has issued an Amber Alert for a 4-year-old boy who was reported to be abducted from a Cobb County, Ga., mobile home park Thursday morning.

    Christian Guevera is about 3-feet tall, weighs about 30 lbs. and has long, shaggy brown hair and brown eyes. He was last seen wearing pajamas.

    Police say he was abducted by two men wearing ski masks who were driving a white Chevrolet Suburban.

    The boy’s mother told police she was returning to her home after dropping another child at a school bus stop when she was attacked by two Hispanic men.

    The attackers used a stun gun on her and took the child, the mother told police.

  35. Judy Sabatini says:

    Subject: Something To Ponder……….

    I have always wondered why NO ONE has ever came forward from Obama’s past saying they knew him,

    attended school with him, was his friend, etc. NO ONE, not one person has ever come forward from his past.

    VERY VERY STRANGE. This should really be a cause for great concern.

    that America has ever known!

    This is very interesting stuff. Sort of adds credence to the idea of

    The Manchurian Candidate thing having happened here!

    Stephanopoulos of ABC news said the same thing during the 08′ campaign. He
    too was a classmate of BO’s at Columbia class of 1984. But said he never had
    one class with him.

    Was he there?

    While he is such a great orator, why doesn’t anyone in Obama’s college
    class remember him? Maybe he never attended class! Maybe he never
    attended Columbia? He won’t allow Colombia to release his records
    either. Suspicious isn’t it???


    Looking for evidence of Obama’s past, Fox News contacted 400 Columbia
    University students from the period when Obama claims to have been there,
    but none remembered him.

    Wayne Allyn Root was, like Obama, a political science major at Columbia
    who also graduated in 1983. In 2008, Root says of Obama, “I don’t know a
    single person at Columbia that knew him, and they all know me. I don’t
    have a classmate who ever knew Barack Obama at Columbia. Ever! Nobody
    recalls him. I’m not exaggerating, I’m not kidding. “Root adds that he
    was also, like Obama, “Class of ’83 political science, pre-law” and says,
    “You don’t get more exact or closer than that. Never met him in my life,
    don’t know anyone who ever met him. At the class reunion, our 20th reunion
    five years ago, who was asked to be the speaker of the class? Me. No one
    ever heard of Barack! And five years ago, nobody even knew who he was.
    The guy who writes the class notes, who’s kind of the, as we say in New
    York, the macha who knows everybody, has yet to find a person, a human who
    ever met him. Is that not strange? It’s very strange. “Obama’s
    photograph does not appear in the school’s yearbook and Obama consistently
    declines requests to talk about his years at Columbia, provide school
    records, or provide the name of any former classmates or friends while at


    NOTE: Root graduated as Valedictorian from his high school, Thornton-Donovan
    School, then graduated from Columbia University in 1983 as a Political
    Science major (in the same class as President Barack Obama WAS SUPPOSED TO

    Can it be that BHO is a complete fraud?? More intrigue concerning “The Man”
    who wasn’t there.

    • I’ve seen a smiliar email before. If this guy is for real, can’t he request all of his records, including class enrollments under the FOIA? If he can, there should be a least on or two classes that BO should have been in, right? If every record is requested, BO’s name should appear SOMEWHERE. Of course, its absences PROVES nothing, but people might get curious and start demanding real proof of the Legend that is BO.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        It does make one wonder. The only thing we have ever seen, was is ” Birth Certificate “, and really nothing else, besides him being a senator. I never heard of him, until he ran for president.

  36. Judy Sabatini says:

    Gee, Where is everybody today?

  37. Judy Sabatini says:

    The President’s Prayer Breakfast Catastrophe

    By S.E. Cupp

    – FOXNews.com

    If you’ve ever heard this president discuss faith then you know that he is incredibly uneasy with the themes and constructs of American belief, and often manages to slight the faithful just as he’s awkwardly trying to address them.

    On the same day President Obama spoke at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, D.C., The Washington Post published a curious story by Anne E. Kornblut on the role religion plays in the Obama White House.

    If we’re to believe Kornblut and the long list of oh-so-helpful unnamed Obama advisers she quotes, God is just all over that place. Case in point:

    Some aide sends the president religious passages every morning on his BlackBerry, that come from, according to an unnamed official, “a variety of sources.”

    An unnamed adviser says he worships regularly at Camp David.

    More unnamed advisers insist he prays privately.

    Yet another unnamed senior official says the president is “a prayerful guy.”

    There you have it, case closed. The president is, like, totally holy.

    The timing of this bizarre non-story is no accident. In the weeks following Scott Brown’s stunning senate victory in Massachusetts, the president has ratcheted up an impressive, albeit totally manufactured, embrace of populist rhetoric. You’re angry? He is too! You hate profligate spending? He does too! You’re mad at Wall Street? So is he!

    And nothing complements a good populist screed like a few shout-outs to the Almighty. After all, in times of struggle, what do all those common folk in the square states do? They git out thar’ guns and thar’ religion! So after months of virtual silence about the man upstairs, the president’s spin doctors have undoubtedly assured him it’s time to get back on the God bandwagon.

    Never mind that the president skipped last year’s National Day of Prayer, covered up religious insignia at Georgetown, canceled the flyover at “God & Country Day,” and gives regular shout-outs to atheists whenever it is, in fact, least appropriate.

    Like today. During his speech at the Prayer Breakfast the president was sure to point out – again – that not everyone in America believes in God. He’s right, of course, but wouldn’t you think that at a prayer breakfast, he’d direct his remarks primarily to the population that prays? The humanist salute to solstice does not, in fact, count as a “prayer.”

    While today’s speech was perhaps the president’s most muscular discussion of faith to date, it was rife with incongruities and contradictions that reveal just how incomplete his understanding of American faith actually is, regardless of what Ms. Kornblut tells us an unnamed adviser said.
    The worst misstep of today’s speech? When the president said that “God’s grace” is expressed “by Americans of every faith, and no faith, uniting around a common purpose, a higher purpose.”

    Uh, no it isn’t — unless my definition of atheism is different than his. Most atheists insist that God’s grace most certainly is not expressed through them, and that there are no “higher” purposes. While we may all come together for “a purpose” – like relief work in Haiti, poverty, AIDS, or world hunger – no atheist I know would consider this God’s work.

    It’s time the president end this hooey, and give up on his obsessive need to equate belief and non-belief. They are apples and oranges, and every time he does this he sounds less like the scholar he’s supposed to be and more like a petulant child.

    But wait, there were other bizarre moments today:

    Christ is nowhere to be found: The president is supposedly a Christian, yet there wasn’t a single mention of Christ or Jesus in today’s speech.

    God and war: Obama said that God’s grace is expressed through the efforts of our armed forces. Really? Sarah Palin was publicly flayed for suggesting just this when she asked her congregation to pray for the military.

    Americans are terrible: The president devoted a considerable portion of his speech to condemning Americans for becoming “absorbed with our abstract arguments, our ideological disputes, our contests for power.” It might have been nice to mention that we are also the most philanthropic country in the world, especially considering that even in our own time of economic struggle, we have generously opened our wallets to help rebuild another devastated nation.

    Dissing evangelicals: In throwing a bone to the religious right, Obama doesn’t miss a chance to also insult them. “We see that in many conservative pastors who are helping lead the way to fix our broken immigration system. It’s not what would be expected from them, and yet they recognize, in those immigrant families, the face of God.” He may as well have just called them xenophobic nativists.

    And no Obama speech would be complete without a shout-out to the other big guy upstairs – himself. So he closed his Prayer Breakfast speech by congratulating himself for doing such a great job with his Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, just in case you momentarily forgot that 2012 is right around the corner.

    All in all, it was actually fairly predictable – if you’ve ever heard this president discuss faith you know that he is incredibly uneasy with the themes and constructs of American belief, and often manages to slight the faithful just as he’s awkwardly trying to address them.

    But rest assured, his friends in the liberal press – indeed, the ultimate Tower of Babel – will hail this speech as they do all the rest, and insist it proves he is indeed, as unnamed officials say, “a prayerful man.”

  38. Judy Sabatini says:

    Amazing, and with all those jobs that Obama and Reid claimed to have created too.

    Jobless Claims Rise Unexpectedly to 480,000


    The number of newly laid-off workers filing initial claims for jobless benefits rose unexpectedly last week, evidence that layoffs are continuing and jobs remain scarce.

    WASHINGTON — The number of newly laid-off workers filing initial claims for jobless benefits rose unexpectedly last week, evidence that layoffs are continuing and jobs remain scarce.

    The rise is the fourth in the past five weeks. Most economists hoped that claims would resume a downward trend that was evident in the fall and early winter.

    The Labor Department says that new claims for unemployment insurance rose by 8,000 to a seasonally adjusted 480,000. Wall Street economists had expected a drop to 460,000.

    The four-week average, which smooths fluctuations, rose for the third straight week.
    The number of people continuing to claim benefits was unchanged at 4.6 million.

  39. Judy Sabatini says:

    Subject: FW: Johnny Strikes Again

    Subject: Johnny Strikes Again

    The teacher asked the class to use the word “fascinate” in a sentence.

    Molly put up her hand and said, “My family went to my granddad’s farm, and we all saw his pet sheep. It was fascinating.”

    The teacher said, “That was good, but I wanted you to use the word fascinate, not fascinating.”

    Sally raised her hand. She said, “My family went to see Rock City and I was fascinated.”

    The teacher said, “Well, that was good Sally, but I wanted you to use the word ‘fascinate’.”

    Little Johnny raised his hand.

    The teacher hesitated because she had been burned by Little Johnny before. She finally decided there was no way he could damage the word “fascinate,” so she called on him for his offering.

    Johnny said, “My aunt Gina has a sweater with ten buttons, but her tits are so big she can only fasten eight.”

    The teacher sat down and cried.

  40. Judy Sabatini says:

    A Nun Walks Into A Bar

    A nun, badly needing to use the rest-room, walked into the local boozer. The place was hopping with music and loud conversation and every once in a while “the lights would turn off.” Each time the lights would go out, the place would erupt into cheers. However, when the revelers saw the nun, the room went dead silent. She walked up to the bartender, and asked, “May I please use the rest-room?”
    The bartender replied, “OK, but I should warn you that there is a statue of a naked man in there wearing only a fig leaf.” “Well, in that case, I’ll just look the other way,” said the nun.
    So the bartender showed the nun to the back of the restaurant. After a few minutes, she came back out, and the whole place stopped just long enough to give the nun a loud round of applause. She went to the bartender and said, “Sir, I don’t understand. Why did they applaud for me just because I went to the rest-room?”
    “Well, now they know you’re one of us,” said the bartender, “Would you like a drink?” “No thank you, but, I still don’t understand,” said the puzzled nun.
    “You see,” laughed the bartender, “every time someone lifts the fig leaf on that statue, the lights go out.” “Now, how about that drink?”

  41. Judy Sabatini says:

    Pardon the language, but it’s too good to pass up…


    **This letter is a thing of beauty (even if the language is a
    bit rough)..
    You definitely feel the guy’s pain! An actual letter to the

    Dear sirs,

    I’m in the process of renewing my passport, and still cannot
    believe this..
    How is it that Radio Shack has my address and telephone number
    and knows
    that I bought a cable t.v. from them back in 1987, and yet, the
    Government is still asking me where I was born and on what date.

    For Christ sakes, do you guys do this by hand? My birth date you
    have on my
    social security card, and it is on all the income tax forms I’ve
    filed for
    the past 30 years. It is on my health insurance card, my
    driver’s license,
    on the last eight damn passports I’ve had, on all those stupid
    declaration forms I’ve had to fill out before being allowed off
    the plane
    over the last 30 years, and all those insufferable census forms
    that are
    done at election times.

    Would somebody please take note, once and for all, that my
    mother’s name is
    Maryanne, my father’s name is Robert and I’d be absolutely
    astounded if that
    ever changed between now and when I die!!!!!!

    I apologize, I’m really pissed off this morning. Between you an’
    me, I’ve
    had enough of this bullshit! You send the application to my
    house, then you
    ask me for my f’in’ address.

    What is going on? You have a gang of Neanderthal a’holes workin’
    Look at my damn picture. Do I look like Bin Laden? I don’t want
    to dig up
    Yasser Arafat, for shit sakes. I just want to go and park my ass
    on a sandy

    And would someone please tell me, why would you give a shit
    whether I plan
    on visiting a farm in the next 15 days? If I ever got the urge
    to do
    something weird to a chicken or a goat, believe you me, I’d sure
    as hell not
    want to tell anyone!

    Well, I have to go now, ’cause I have to go to the other end of
    the city and
    get another f’in’ copy of my birth certificate, to the tune of
    $60. Would
    it be so complicated to have all the services in the same spot
    to assist in
    the issuance of a new passport the same day?? Nooooo, that’d be
    too damn
    easy and maybe makes sense. You’d rather have us running all
    over the
    f’in’ place like chickens with our heads cut off, then find some
    to confirm that it’s really me on the damn picture – you
    know,the one where
    we’re not allowed to smile?! (bureaucratic f’in’ morons) Hey,
    you know
    why we can’t smile? We’re totally pissed off!

    – An Irate Citizen.

    P.S. Remember what I said above about the picture and getting
    someone to
    confirm that it’s me? Well, my family has been in this country
    since 1776
    …….I have served in the military for something over 30 years
    and have
    had security clearances up the yingyang………However, I have
    to get
    someone’important’ to verify who I am – you know, someone like
    my doctor WHO


    You Sure In The Hell Should Know Who.

    ………………And we want them to run our health care?!?*

  42. Judy Sabatini says:
  43. Hi all! Missed ya! Getting caught up on reading. Hope Mrs. W. is getting better USW.
    I’ve been painting and getting ready to go to Seattle for a “couples shower” for my step kid and his intended.
    Got this from my seriously conservative uncle.

    I’ll catch up with you guys sooner or later!


  44. Hi Colonel! Reply from above, to sqishy up there.

    Maybe I was misunderstood, maybe not. Maybe be getting cabin fever too! I would agree with most of your statements, as to getting involved with a mortgage an all! Most good hard working people do this to have a home for the long term, sadly, many did it for other reasons, or were told they could afford it when they couldn’t. There is blame to go there as well.

    Let me try to clarify my feelings on this better. I expect a home to gain/lose value over the course of time, supply and demand will do that. Banksfrom my research, conducted business in an unethical manner that negatively effected otherwise ethical people. The banks loaned to people who should not have qualified for a loan, then they wrote the types of loans to almost guarantee they couldn’t pay on it, that is just wrong, and taking advantage of stupid people while putting the rest of society in finacial jeopardy.

    Add to this the bundling and selling of mortgage securities to investment firms, and, inventing and selling credit default swaps (insurance to protect against defaults) and we have what I call a recipe for disaster soup. Bankers are not stupid, and noone can tell me that they couldn’t see this coming, but, with the govt’s insistance, went full speed ahead anyway. I call this unethical. I call this the reason that home prices have plummeted.

    I’m still trying to slow down on my lifelong “eye for an eye” mentallity. In my little brain, the banks and govt had everything to do with our current finacial issues, and I also believe they knew it would happen. To say that they didn’t think that whole hoops of people would default when their payments increased as much as two fold, is absurd to me.

    Now, the results of all this. TARP, despite an overwhelming resistance by the people, passed into law. The credit default swaps were paid to the holders, the banks that held the bad security derivitives that defaulted were propped back up. Here’s what really chaps my bottom, if, the investment of mortgage security derivitives were insured by credit swap defaults, and that insurance was paid, the only people that lost were those of us that remain finacially stable, many with a home they can’t sell if they wanted or needed to. I’m most likely missing something or totally wrong about all this. And I’m sure that I will be corrected if I am, but it seems to me that someone owns alot of single family homes, worth lots of money. I’m guessing that was the goal.

    Back to being ethical. If I’m in a deal with an ethical person or persons, than I feel it is my reponsibility to keep up my part of the deal. If one party fails to act reponsibly, which in turn negatively effects the other party (as I see it in this case), then what on earth is the the responsilble party supposed to do? I’m not much for getting screwed by folks like that, that is what keeps me from doing that to other people, treat people like you would like them to treat you mindset.

    Hope that sheds some light on this.

    Please correct any errors I may have made in my assessment of things, as I’m sure I have. (lob the stones instead of fastballin them 🙂 )


    • Haha G! The colonel called you out! I love it 🙂

      • I answered accordingly 🙂

        If I’m wrong, then I will learn. If I’m right, then we all learn. What did you think of my reply?

        • I can totally relate to your explanation. You did a fine job explaining. But it gives me great joy to see that the colonel “aint buyin it either”. HEEHEE For all the stuff we talk about around here it always comes back to morals and on this subject, ahem, you come up short. Sorry G-Man. But you still rock!

          • No worries here Anita! This all began as a story of DKII’s parents. I have a real protection bone in me when it comes to seniors. More below.


      • General Mike Loh, Commander of The USAF Tactical Air Command called me out in 1991. 4 months later, Gen Loh presented me with Tactical Air Command’s Professional of the Year Award. He was wrong, and it was about integrity then as well. He told me “off the record” that I was the only enlisted troop that evr stuck to his guns under those circumstances, then thanked me for standing up for those who couldn’t do it for themselves.

        He questioned my morals and integrity because I stood tall against those who would take advantage of weaker people, they just happened to be military officers, on my turf, trying to intimidate my youngers troops. They weren’t too happy when I demanded they leave my classroom, and to not return until they could do so in a professional manner. They were F-15 pilots, six of them, Lt. Col, Maj, and 4 Capt’s. I was less than nice, and only a SSgt. I won!

        I will never tolerate when the innocent gets dishonored, ripped off, or taken advantage of. If that is what deems a bad moral character, then I’m a real prick!


        • Whoa G! Calm down. Sorry if I struck a nerve. Didn’t mean to piss you off. You’re going on about sticking up for the little guy and that is very cool. You stuck to your morals. So it just doesn’t compute that you could bail on a contract even though you knew the rules from the start. Forget about that the big guys had it rigged. You signed therefore the right thing to do is live up to the contract. If you can’t afford it you lose. You knew the rules up front. I always try to tell my kids (and my ex who wouldnt listen) that what you do affects other people. You bailing on your contract directly affected me. (yes this is all hypothetical)(I’m not yelling)

          • I’m not PO’d! Nor am I bailing anywhere at this time. Sorry if I came off as angry, I’m certainly not, especially at anyone here. As I said above, DK’s parents got caught up in this mess, that ticks me off. I’m fine, and have not decided on going anywhere. My choice would be to sell, if I choose to relocate, but that may not be possible, so I consider all other avenues, including renting.

            Much time to consider things, and in no hurry. I must have not made my intentions clear, sorry. Was never about me anyway.


          • anita-

            “You signed therefore the right thing to do is live up to the contract”

            They are living up to the contract. The contract says, if they don’t pay, the bank gets the house and nothing else. And that’s what is happening.

            Contracts always have out-clauses with penalties attached. Is a sports player not living up to his contract if he decides to retire in the middle and the team doesn’t have to pay him afterwards?

            • DK,

              Right. Your parents are honoring their contract. My problem was more with G-Man’s attitude of getting even with the big guys because homeowners were set up for failure. Normally I wouldn’t even have a dog in that fight-none of my business-I wouldn’t do it that way but it’s still none of my business. BUT….in the end it did affect me & my net worth. So I think I have a legitimate beef. Sorry about your folks’ trouble. I don’t assume they lived beyond their means. But like I said before plenty of my own friends lived way above their heads and walked. It’s just not right

        • Gman…..anything you do to “fighter pukes” is ok.

    • Hey G-man,

      I meant to post this earlier but got busy at work. Not throwing stones. Just thought of this whe I saw your post.


      February 03, 2010
      The spectacular failure of Obama’s housing policy
      Rick Moran

      There’s no other way to describe what Obama has wrought with his wrong headed, misguided policies for homeowners. It is an Epic Fail that has made the situation much worse and delayed the recovery in home values by artificially propping up mortgage holders who can’t pay.

      This piece in the New York Times by David Streitfeld doesn’t come out and say this, of course. But all you have to do is read what many homeowners have decided to do about their valueless homes; walk away leaving the bank – and the rest of us – holding the bag:

      After three years of plunging real estate values, after the bailouts of the bankers and the revival of their million-dollar bonuses, after the Obama administration’s loan modification plan raised the expectations of many but satisfied only a few, a large group of distressed homeowners is wondering the same thing.
      New research suggests that when a home’s value falls below 75 percent of the amount owed on the mortgage, the owner starts to think hard about walking away, even if he or she has the money to keep paying.

      In a situation without precedent in the modern era, millions of Americans are in this bleak position. Whether, or how, to help them is one of the biggest questions the Obama administration confronts as it seeks a housing policy that would contribute to the economic recovery.

      “We haven’t yet found a way of dealing with this that would, we think, be practical on a large scale,” the assistant Treasury secretary for financial stability, Herbert M. Allison Jr., said in a recent briefing.

      The number of Americans who owed more than their homes were worth was virtually nil when the real estate collapse began in mid-2006, but by the third quarter of 2009, an estimated 4.5 million homeowners had reached the critical threshold, with their home’s value dropping below 75 percent of the mortgage balance.

      Incredible. After pouring $80 billion into the loan modification program, they are still looking for a way to avoid what they should have done in the first place; allow the market to work and wring all of this bad paper out of the system.

      The estimate of 5.1 million foreclosures this year is staggering – 10% of all home mortgages might go into default. And yet, the Obama administration’s answer is more government intervention.

      The result is that it is estimated that more than 500,000 people who otherwise could make payments on their home loans, got up and walked away because the value of their property had fallen 30% or more. Part of the problem is that home values continue to decline. If there had been even a modest recovery, many of those walk aways probably would have stayed put.

      So congratulations are in order for our president. It’s very difficult to make a very bad situation catastrophically worse – something he managed without much trouble at all.

    • Hey there, Gman…..ok. I get it. Actually there were two topics here.

      Gman posts: Add to this the bundling and selling of mortgage securities to investment firms, and, inventing and selling credit default swaps (insurance to protect against defaults) and we have what I call a recipe for disaster soup. Bankers are not stupid, and noone can tell me that they couldn’t see this coming, but, with the govt’s insistance, went full speed ahead anyway. I call this unethical. I call this the reason that home prices have plummeted.

      D13 concurs: Ok. All of this is hypothetically if not actually true. I agree that they saw it coming and I agree that they could have, and probably did, manipulate things. And I agree that it is unethical. Perhaps legal, but ethics are an individual measure.

      Gman further posts: Now, the results of all this. TARP, despite an overwhelming resistance by the people, passed into law. The credit default swaps were paid to the holders, the banks that held the bad security derivitives that defaulted were propped back up. Here’s what really chaps my bottom, if, the investment of mortgage security derivitives were insured by credit swap defaults, and that insurance was paid, the only people that lost were those of us that remain finacially stable, many with a home they can’t sell if they wanted or needed to. I’m most likely missing something or totally wrong about all this. And I’m sure that I will be corrected if I am, but it seems to me that someone owns alot of single family homes, worth lots of money. I’m guessing that was the goal.

      D13 says: Cool. If that is your take, and it is feasible if not plausible…I can buy that as well. I understand your concerns and where you are coming from and I understand the elderly and the weak scenarios as well and can agree with you that predatory pricing, short selling, ARMS, etc….were legal…..bbut short on ethics and integrity. Integrity being the worship of the dollar…which is also ok. Freedom of choice and all that.

      However, giving your due…which I do…Having said that, my initial post still stands to the old saying “ignorance of the law is no excuse”. If I sign a contract….willingly….and did not read it or get help…shame on me. I am still obligated regardless how unfair it may have ended up being because of my own stupidity. I do not think it right, that if I signed a stupid contract, that, unless they have breached the written contract first, I don’t have a moral and ethical obligation to that contract.

      I, also, cannot buy into the “they talked me into it” or the proverbial ” I did not understand it that way and they lied to me”….it is still written and there to be read.

      Luv ya brother….and, as I said before, anything you do to “fighter pukes” is just fine.

  45. Organizing For America…sounds good,right? Well that is the revised version of Obama for America. Just came across some reading on a couple people looking into this organization. Interesting. Comes in two parts.


  46. Judy Sabatini says:

    Millions in Stimulus Spending Being Doled Out for Questionable Jobs

    By William La Jeunesse

    – FOXNews.com

    Federal agencies are spending stimulus money at the rate of $196 million an hour. And they will do so every hour for the next eight months until a September 30, 2010, deadline.

    Federal agencies are spending stimulus money at the rate of $196 million an hour. And they will do so every hour for the next eight months until a September 30, 2010, deadline.

    “When you put that kind of money out the door that fast, there’s a possibility of $55 billion dollars of waste, fraud and abuse connected with it,” Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, said Thursday before a Senate Finance Committee hearing examining the lack of oversight in the $878 billion dollar economic stimulus bill passed a year ago.

    Grassley said he fears much of the money is going to some individuals and businesses that don’t qualify for it and projects that do not serve taxpayers best interests. Judge for yourself:

    — $233,000 to the University of California at San Diego to study why Africans vote. Jobs created: 12, but seven of those are Africans in Africa.

    — In Nevada, $2 million in stimulus money built a new fire station, but because of budget cuts, the county can’t afford to hire firefighters to work there.

    — Penn State University got $1.5 million to study plant fossils in Argentina. Of 5 jobs created, 2 belong to Argentines.

    — Researchers the State University of New York at Buffalo got $389,000 to pay 100 Buffalonians $45 each to record how much malt liquor they drink — and how much pot smoke each day. Consumption is then reported via an automated phone hotline. Cost per job: almost $200,000.

    — The Obama administration is spending $5 billion to weatherize homes. But one Texas county spent $4 million to weatherize just 47 homes. That’s $78,000 per house. Each retrofit is supposed to save homeowners $500 a year in energy costs. That means taxpayers will recoup their investment in 156 years, long after the home is probably torn down.

    — Two Arizona universities got almost $1 million dollars so 3 grad students can study how ants work. That’s more than $300,000 per job.

    — Companies that raise tropical fish, shellfish, catfish, alligators and even turtles qualify for $50 million in tax money to buy fish food.

    — North Carolina public schools received $4.4 million to hire math and literacy coaches, not for students, but teachers. That’s 64 people paid $70,000 each to teach teachers how to teach reading and math.

    “We have to know that people at the Office of Management and Budget and the various agencies that are shoveling this money out the door, that they’re on top of it,” Grassley told Fox News. “And we need transparency and information on all of this.”

    Senate sources say privately many inspectors general are understaffed and overwhelmed, and mechanisms to stop fraud and disqualify tax cheats, criminals and others aren’t always working.

    Take the Napa Valley Wine Train. The county received $54 million to build a railroad bridge, relocate a half-mile of track and build a flood wall to protect a wine train passenger station. The no-bid contract went to a minority-owned business operated by an Eskimo tribe outside Anchorage.

    The company then hired a real construction company for a fraction of what they were paid by the government to actually do the work. The tribe’s CEO has no construction experience. His last business, a Web site for sailors, went bankrupt after spending $13 million in investor money.

    “That wine train is sort of the perfect storm of practically all of the things that is wrong with government contracting,” said Danielle Brian, director of the Project on Government Oversight.

    Other dubious contracts include:

    — $6 million in stimulus money to a California contractor under federal investigation for overcharging San Diego for cleanup after the 2007 wildfires

    — A Denver developer received $13 million in tax credits to help build a senior housing complex despite being sued as a slumlord for running decrepit, rodent-infested apartment buildings in San Francisco.

    — Kentucky gave $24 million to a contractor on trial on for bribery.

    — An aerospace company received $15 million to monitor water quality in a Ventura County creek it was already fined for polluting.

    “What we have is already a broken system. The federal government is just lousy in its contracting. When you add these elements of speed where the contracting officers or the agencies are being pushed to hurry up and get these dollars out and these grants out quickly, all you’re doing is making it harder for them to make good choices,” said Brian.

    Some inspectors general are spending less than one percent of stimulus expenditures on oversight.

    • I would like to point out the wine train is privately owned. Many here are asking how $54 can go to assist a private enterprise the expects no real beneffits to result. But then spreading money around like pixy dust will improve the economy.

      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Hey T

        That’s just like with that new firehouse they built that was mentioned in the above. Here in Reno, they closed 2 fire stations, laid off 12 in each house, with only 2 to 3 men in each. People here are not happy with that because now it’s going to take longer for them to come if needed. They figured it will now take on the average 15 minutes to get to their destination because of the closures and lays offs.

        They are even talking about laying off professors at the university, closing several building at the university, closing community colleges, laying off more teachers at schools, but wanting to raise college tuition by 45%. Now, I ask, where’s the sense in that?

  47. Can’t pass this up!

    Barack Obama got out of the shower and was drying off when he looked in the mirror and noticed that he was white from the neck to the top of his head.

    In a sheer panic and fearing he was turning white all over, he called his doctor and told him what had happened.

    The doctor advised him to come to his office immediately.

    After an examination, the doctor mixed a concoction of brown liquid, gave it to Barack, and told him to drink it all.

    Barack drank the concoction and said, “That tasted like bull—-!”

    “It was,” the doctor replied, “you were a quart low.”


    • More funnies!

      >A guy stuck his head into a barber shop and asked, “How long before
      > > can get a haircut?”
      > >
      > > The barber looked around the shop full of customers and said,
      “About two
      > > hours.”
      > >
      > > The guy left.
      > >
      > > A few days later the same guy stuck his head in the door and asked,
      > > long before I can get a haircut?” The barber looked around at the
      > > and said,” About three hours.”
      > >
      > > The guy left.
      > >
      > > A week later the same guy stuck his head in the shop and asked,
      > > long before I can get a haircut?” The barber looked around the shop
      > > said, “About an hour and a half.”
      > >
      > > The guy left.
      > >
      > > The barber turned to a friend and said, “Hey, Bill, do me a favor.
      > > Follow that guy and see where he goes. He keeps asking how long he
      > > to wait for a haircut, but then he doesn’t ever come back.
      > >
      > > “A little while later Bill returned to the shop, laughing
      > > The barber asked, “So where does that guy go when he leaves?”
      > >
      > > Bill looked up, tears in his eyes from laughter and said,
      > >
      > > “Your house”

  48. Judy Sabatini says:

    I got one too.

    Hi Mom, How are you” “Hi Son, where are you? I thought you were with your father at Home
    “Yeah we were, but I got arrested, and they’ve let me make one phone
    What happened?
    “Oh, I punched this African-American woman in the head.”
    “What on earth ~ why did you do that ?????”
    “Well it wasn’t my fault. Dad told me to find a Black & Decker.”

  49. Judy Sabatini says:

    The woman applying for a job in a Florida lemon grove seemed to be far too qualified for the job.

    The foreman frowned and said, “I have to ask you this:
    “Have you had any actual experience in picking lemons?”

    “Well, as a matter of fact, I have!”

    “I’ve been divorced three times,
    Owned 2 Chryslers,
    And I voted for Obama.”

  50. Judy Sabatini says:

    Hey G

    How you doing? Hope all is going well with you.


    • Just Ducky! Snowstorm tomorrow, so far calling for 3-6″. Not bad, better than 8-12″, but they still have questions on the track of the storm, so it could get crappy for a day or so. Rather normal around here.

      Hope you are doing well!


      • Judy Sabatini says:

        Doing good, but we’re suppose to get snow tomorrow and Friday, then break on Sunday, and Monday, then Tues, Wed, and Thursday, more snow. God I can’t wait for winter to get over with, I’m sick of it.

        Glad you’re doing just ducky there G.

        • We’ve had little snow, as compared to the last 3 years, but we have had the cold that we didn’t have the last 3 years. Nice change actually, just frigid, less shoveling. I can live with that.


          • Judy Sabatini says:

            Been nice here really, except for the clouds we’ve been having. Don’t think they can make up their minds on which the days the storm is actually suppose to come though. Changes everyday.

            It’s been in the high 40’s, 50 for today, but the temp is suppose to drop again. But of course it’s suppose to snow Saturday, I have to go grocery shopping, never fails.

            • I know what your weather is, I listen to K-Bull out of Reno at work everyday. It’s one of the only stations that play the National Anthem daily (9am here). I look forward to that.

              Your temps have been nice, can’t say we have hit 40 since December, but we have hit 2, 5 , 4 , 7, 12, and 18. LOL


              • Judy Sabatini says:

                I keep forgetting you listen to that station, guess there’s not point in me repeating what you already know.

                Well G I hate to chat and run, but it’s time for me to get off this thing for the day. Too bad we didn’t have a chance to chat more, but maybe tomorrow. I wonder where everybody was today. Oh well, maybe they’ll be here tomorrow.

                So, on that note I will say good night to you and sleep well and see you tomorrow.


  51. Bottom Line says:

    Was jammin’ to some Zeppelin, ..Thought I would share.

    Before I go to bed, I leave you all with a song titled with a phrase often used here at SUFA.

    G’Night all.

    Led Zeppelin – “No Quarter”

  52. D13,

    In your post above regarding “Walking from Underwater Houses”, you said this:

    “you should be bound by that agreement morally”

    Sir, you are confusing MORALS with CONTRACTS. A contract is amoral – it is neither moral or immoral – it is an agreement of action between two parties.

    In that agreement conditions are made and actions to be taken. Further, it lays out remedies should either party – whatever the cause – cannot fulfill their part of the agreement.

    This not a moral test. You do this and get that, otherwise this happens. End of story.

    There is real danger in creating moral conditions upon amoral substance. This is like saying a tiger eating Gandhi would be evil and a tiger eating Hitler would be good. But the tiger is neither – it is just hungry.

    In human affairs such moral transfer distorts the equability of power in an agreement.

    If I can make you morally obligated on something where I cannot make you legally obligated – I hold a huge advantage over you; more so if I refuse to share that moral obligation.

    A bank sees no need to create a moral obligation on itself. It holds all the cards – the money or your house. If you cannot pay – for any reason – they get your house and kick you out. They have no moral problem throwing kids and widows into the street. In fact, they put the blame ON YOU for all the consequences no matter whose fault.

    If the bank holds an amoral position on the contract, why do you believe you need to hold a higher moral position – to your determent?

    Contracts are made between equals -both parties get something for something from the other party – and you’ve made yourself – on your own accord – disadvantaged. You’ve given something without any return. I would suggest that is not a good tactic in negotiations.

    • I think we are actually believing the same way…..just stating it different. I agree with your definition and the use of the term moral vs contract….

      I am using the term moral in that, if you enter a legally binding contract and there are remedies for performance or non performance, the contract ends there. No problem. However, a debt is a debt. I personally feel that there is a moral obligation to pay that debt. It is the right thing to do. This is what I believe.

      Now, if I get into something over my head and cannot pay and there is no way to pay, I take the risk of walking away and losing whatever it is. I understand this and can do this, but doing that does not lessen the morality one believes in.

      It is amoral to enter a contract knowing you will walk away from it. I think you believe this. It do not think that you are the type of person that would enter a contract….knowing that you are going to walk. You are going to be like me…read it…understand it….ask questions….get help if needed…and make a decision. Oncve that decision is made you are legally (and, in my opinion, morally) obligated to that contract. If things change to your detriment and survival is paramount, I will, like you will, protect myself and walk…. but, in my mind, I think it is amoral to enter a contract with the intent of walking or even the idea that “it is ok if I walk when things get tough…” However, as I stated…if the wall it too high to climb and you have not put yourself in the position of not paying (color tv’s, cars, Wifis. wiis, etc)then you do what is necessary but that does not lessen the moral view point. You have no right to get mad when they trash your credit, or come after you personally…etcetera, etcetera…..

      Anyway, I think we understand it the same. I place a value on a persons word…promise. That is moral and ethical to me. I have fared well with this understanding. I do not stick my head in the ground. But, and it happened once, that I got over my head and defaulted on a credit card when younger. There was no property to come and get. Even though it was written off, I still felt a moral obligation to pay the bill even if it was three years later. But that is me. I paid it and MY conscience was clear and the credit card company could have cared less….but to me personally…it was the right thing to do.

      Live long and prosper (insert Vulcan salute here)…


      • D13,

        Because I believe this topic is important so to educate our children properly about the ways of the world, I’m glued a bit to this particular thread.

        You know me well enough that I break paradigms – I dissect them into little pieces to inspect their principles – to search for contradictions and lies. That’s what turned me into me a while ago was due to the consequences of these discoveries.

        I am using the term moral in that, if you enter a legally binding contract and there are remedies for performance or non performance, the contract ends there. No problem.

        However, a debt is a debt. I personally feel that there is a moral obligation to pay that debt. It is the right thing to do. This is what I believe.

        Nurse, scalpel!

        We agree about contracts, contractual actions and remedies. (No cancer there)

        You then say you have an obligation (slice out ‘moral’ – it as no place here) to pay the debt. (Check)

        But that is what the remedy provides if you fail – the return of the house. And Boy oh Boy does it remedy the debt.

        You buy a house for $350,000 @ 5% over 25 years with a ~15% down payment – $50,000 – for a total mortgage (excluding fees) of $300,000

        You pay $1750 a month on the balance of $300,000.

        You paid 5 years into your house, for a total of $105,000 or 1/3 of the original mortgage.

        Most of this is interest payment, but to the banks cash flow, they’ve received 1/3 of their money back – in another 10 years they be free and clear of their initial costs – the rest pure profit – where you still will have 10 years of payments.

        You can’t make your payments. They don’t seize 2/3 of you house – they seize ALL of your house. You lose ALL of your $105,000 PLUS your $50,000 down payment

        They get the $350,000 house PLUS your $105,000 due to your default, for a total of $455,000 – for the price of $300,000 – for a STAGGERING 51% profit over 5 years – or a 10.2% profit margin per year – which is twice the rate of interest rate they were charging you.

        And you get *nothing* for your $155,000 (payments plus down payment) paid into your house.

        Had you rented, the rent price – which is typically 1/25th of the house value per year (so divide by 12 for monthly payments) would have been $1200/month for the same property.

        So the value of a “home” – because you always need a place to live – is $1200 out of your payments. The extra $550 you paid into it was to make your home YOURS.

        The first $1200 is a wash – you need to pay that no matter what because you need a place to live. $33,000 over 5 years was paid to make that place yours. You lost it all. You took a bath for $33,000 PLUS $50,000 = $83,000 – or twice the average American’s entire post-tax income!

        You lost an entire income of two years. The bank gained incredible profit.

        And you think YOU have a moral obligation to the bank???????

        I would suggest they have an obligation to return your $83,000, or at least your down payment – but they will not. There is no such obligation!

        For those that made no down payment, the bank merely gets a 35% profit over 5 years – or 7% per year…!!!

        To stand up and claim that you hold an obligation in this matter over and above the contract is a terrible mistake. The bank is making a killing on you.

        Anything and everything you can do to recover whatever you can – without destroying the property – is your RIGHT.

        If it takes 18 months to evict you, live that year rent free. At least you’ll recover 2/3 of your down payment back out of the house – ~$35,000. You still take a bath, but at least you get a use a little soap.

        Organizing your affairs to fulfill the term of the contract is your moral obligation.

        If you, for example, used force to prevent the sheriff from evicting you – then you have failed your moral obligation. You agreed in writing they can have the house after due process. You refuse. Now you are in the wrong.

        You destroy the house before returning it. You are in the wrong.

        Those are your moral obligations – to return the property upon due process and to maintain the property while its under your control! Do these things, and you have morally fulfilled your obligation.


  53. Todd,

    Also to make the a case, when one can demonstrate a history of like-behavior, it creates an MO – a signature – that one can see if current situations match previous events.

    USA Has A History Of Attacking Themselves To Go To War

    If one considers that every major US war back to and including the Spanish American War has been artificially created – one can surmise that the current war’s have been too.

    Given that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, such an assumption moves rapidly toward circumstance. Given that the US forces allowed Bin Laden to escape – and quickly grew bored chasing him – it further confirms it.

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