Racism Claim Goes International, Israel Trumps Biden for Jerk Status

I have a guest commentary submitted but I haven’t taken the time to take a look at it as of tonight. So I figured I would touch on this topic and see what people have to say. If you weren’t aware, Vice President Joe “foot in mouth” Biden has been in the middle east this week on a trip meant to jumpstart peace talks between Israel and Palestine. Unfortunately for anyone who thought that such a trip could be a positive, they chose Biden to be the American dignitary of record. That never ends well. But the administration made an even more baffling choice when deciding what “news” personality they were going to take with them to the middle east. They chose to take along MSNBC’s Chris Matthews. Now, I don’t want to be critical, but what exactly spurred that decision? Matthews hasn’t participated in anything that resembles news in quite some time. He is little more than a partisan hack from a highly partisan network. Or maybe they just wanted to find out if Matthews got a tingle up his leg over Benjamin Netanyahu. But I gotta tell ya…. Matthews didn’t disappoint.

Let’s start with Biden though. If peace in the region is something that the United States is interested in, I have to question the decision to send Biden. It is a well known reality that Biden has foot in mouth disease. He’s that guy who always seems to say the inappropriate thing. I could list all his historical gaffes, but I really don’t need to. Most of you are well aware of them. And if anyone isn’t, just google it. It’s all out there, most of it on video. Because Joe likes the cameras, and it brings out his “best”.

That isn’t to say Biden was was the one really acting less than hospitable. In a statement released before Biden even arrived, Danny Danon, the Deputy Speaker of Israel’s Parliament, said that, “We see it as nothing short of an insult that President Obama himself is not coming.” That sure had to make Joe feel welcome. But it points to the self importance that Israel tends to brandish. America, in the midst of tons of turmoil domestically, sends its number two guy to the region to discuss the possibility of peace, and before he even arrives, Israel is bitching because it wasn’t Obama himself coming there.

Then there was the broken picture that was an attempted gift for Biden. It was a framed document discussing some trees planted in Israel to honor Biden’s mother, who passed away last year. A nice thought. But Netanyahu broke the glass before giving it to Biden.

And of course, the big news of the visit was the fact that Israel’s Interior Ministry announced approved plans to move forward with 1600 new units to be constructed for Jews in the disputed area of East Jerusalem. And they announced it just hours after Biden arrived. And just shortly after Biden had spoken about the hope for Peace. Biden had stated to Netanyahu, “I am very pleased that you and the Palestinian leadership have agreed to launch indirect talks. We hope that these talks will lead, and they must lead eventually, to negotiations and direct discussions between the parties.” He said his visit was meant to highlight the “unbreakable” bond between Israel and the United States.  “Progress occurs in the Middle East when everyone knows there is simply no space between the United States and Israel . There is no space between the United States and Israel when it comes to Israel’s security,” he said.

The announcement was a surprise to Biden and the Obama administration. And it certainly couldn’t have come at a worse time. Obama has vocally expressed his disapproval of expanding settlement in the disputed areas. And that settlement expansion is a major part of the tension that exists between Israel and Palestine. So on the eve of indirect talks about peace, with America’s #2 guy in town to broker that peace, Israel thinks that this would be a good time to announce news obstacles to that peace. It wasn’t a coincidence folks. Israel did that on purpose. They did it to send a message to both the United States and Palestine. The message is “Frack You, we aren’t interested in your peace talks or in pretending to listen to your talk.”

OK, before I get to Matthews and his absolutely idiotic statements. I have to say this. I used to support the idea of us supporting Israel. They were the lone Democracy in the region, and we had always had their back. I naively believed that Israel was “the good guy” in the middle east. I have worked in Israel. I have trained and trained with their Special Ops guys. I like the people there. But this is yet another example of Israel being the obnoxious asshole in the region. I know that Saddam was a bad guy. I have no issue with our taking him out of power. But he wasn’t any more of an asshole than Israel’s leadership has been. We sent our Vice President there with the intent of brokering some form of peace in the region, stopping the rockets from flying across the border. And Israel’s response is to spit in our face.

It is purely my opinion, but I think that it is high time that the United States simply stopped supporting Israel. I know that this flies in the face of many folks who read here. But Israel is at least part of the reason that the rest of the region hates us in the first place. The least Israel could do as a thank you for us not allowing the rest of the region to kick their ass is to not spit in our face. Yet they do it over and over. They are a smaller version of the bully that the US has the ability to be. They push around their neighbors. They overreact to just about everything. No matter what the situation, they pretend to want peace while simultaneously doing whatever they want to do, despite the fact that their actions negate any possibility of peace. I have said many times, when rockets start coming out of Gaza into Israel, they have a right to react. But how many times to they have to spit in everyone’s face in the region before the region itself decides that they are going to support Gaza? Iran already supplies weapons and funding. There is a lot of speculation that Syria does as well. Lebanon certainly has issues with Israel.

And with all of Israel’s actions, they simply further fan the flames of hostility in the region. And here is the kicker here, folks. So long as we support them, that hostility is aimed at us as well. Want to fight terrorism? Start by refusing to support Israel so long as they fan the flames. It would go a long way. But we won’t. And when the region finally gets heated to a point of war, we will be sucked into it full force. We will send hundreds of thousands of troops there to “protect” Israel. Our sons and daughters will die for Israel’s actions. And that is unacceptable for me. Obviously, I support a defense only posture for the United States. And that includes our dealing with Israel. Stop supplying them with arms. Stop sending them money. Stop all of it. If Israel really is full of the “chosen people”, then they will survive just fine without us. If it isn’t, they still have the strongest military in the region.

And it wasn’t lost on me that last week Israel and Syria both announced plans to build nuclear reactors in their countries. They, of course, say it is only so that they can do a better job providing energy for their people. As with the stance I have taken with Iran, I say that is fine. But I do wonder why there is no outrage about these two countries planning to become nuclear. I wonder why there is no one questioning their intent the same way that we are questioning Iran’s intent. I absolutely question Iran’s intent. They are working towards a nuclear weapon. But I also believe that both Syria and Israel are doing the same thing.

Israel has nuclear weapons, but they are supplied by us. They see that we are growing tired of their games, so they want to get started towards the ability to produce their own once we finally quit supplying them. Syria simply wants to be another power in the region. So I question the intent of all three countries in question. But I also recognize their sovereign right to do so. I just wonder why no one is asking the same question of Israel’s intent as they are of Iran. After all, if there is one country that has absolutely shown the propensity for attacking its neighbors, Israel is it. So why is it OK for them to take these steps and not Iran?

Enough about Israel and their attempts to win the asshole country of the week award. On to Chris Matthews, who surprised even me with his nonsense this week. Matthews was interviewing New York Times reporter Ethan Bronner on Monday. Matthews asked Bronner, “Who’s more popular over here? Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Joe Biden. Put them in order.” Bronner did so, and Obama was listed at the bottom. Matthews saw his opportunity. His brain is so conditioned to jump to racism at even the hint of someone not liking the President. That is, after all, the only plot line MSNBC has for their news stories. He pounced, “Okay, that tells you a lot. So tell me why the president of the United States is so far at the bottom? Is it his middle name? Hussein?” He never even for a moment pondered whether it might be because of unpopular policies or any other reason. He simply jumped straight to it being some form of bigotry. Don’t blame him. It is a pavlovian response from the far left to any questioning of their beliefs.

Unfortunately the Thing in America that most resembles an insane asylum is MSNBC

Bronner noted that he felt that Obama’s muslim background was a factor, citing prejudice against that. Obama did attend a muslim school as a youth, which certainly isn’t something Israelis are gonna love him for. But Matthews wasn’t done. Falling back on the only plot line he knows, he simply spouted off the first thing that came to mind, saying, “Yeah, because they see him as a black man.” You read that right, dear readers. Chris Matthews said that the reason that Obama ranks fourth out of the four names he provided is because the Israelis are racists. The far left’s racist campaign has gone international. No longer are domestic folks who disagree with Obama’s policies alone in having racism being the only claim the left can come up with to explain it. Now it has moved on to the international community as well.

Now, when Putin tells the United States to screw off, it will be because Putin isn’t comfortable with a black man in the white house. When China decides that they are no longer going to buy our debt, it will be because China wants to make sure the first black President in US history fails. I am willing to bet that MSNBC would even call Nelson Mandela a racist if he disagreed with an Obama policy.

This is a major problem for the far left. Those loons on the fringes (MSNBC, Bob Cesca (I will be writing an article shortly about Cesca’s claims about the tea parties), et al) have effectively attempted to paint anyone who disagrees with the Obama plans as racists who are simply not comfortable with a black man in the white house, bigots who want a black President to fail simply because he is black. That has been the only defense they have had. And now that the international community has some reservations about some of the things that the US might do, they don’t know what else to claim. Well, those countries must be racists too!

Personally, I want to thank Matthews for doing this. It put the claims of racism into a whole new perspective for average Americans. For those who may have thought that maybe those claims could be founded in reality, Matthews has just let them know that claims of racism from the left have no basis in reality. When a man claims that the big hairy dog he saw across the field was a bear, you have to wonder whether it was a bear he saw or a dog. But when he next claims that the can of coke on the table is a bear too, you realize that he is simply crazy. Matthews just did that for us, showed us that the claims of racism from the far left are really nothing but the rantings of a crazy man. Thanks Chris.

I got the quotes provided in the article from these links:

FOXNews.com – Sharp Elbows, Cold Shoulders Mark Biden Trip to Israel

Israel rebuffs Biden by announcing new settlement construction – Yahoo! News

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Comments

  1. POsting for Comments. TGIF!

  2. USW;

    Not so sure Israel is istigating hostilities as much as they are demonstrating a show of “Don’t screw with Us”. They are stuck in the middle of a bunch of radicals who believe them to be at least ‘unnecessary’.

    Let’s not forget that Israel is a nation that has been scorned for thousands of years, with a number of nations looking to pretty much wipe them off the map.

    I guess if I lived in an area where everyone around me hated me and constantly threatened to eliminate me I too would be a bit defensive; I might even get a bit ‘offensive’.

    Their attitude has changed towards US policy, but then we should consider the reason for that change of heart; might it be the current foreign policy makers?

    They (Israel) may very well know for sure that Obama was and still is a Muslem???? I mean they do have an intelligence force known for digging up some interesting secrets.

    Let’s not foget too that this is a nation that for all practical purposes has been at war since their inception, and they are constantly dealing with insurgents bent on killing their people. And since the history demonstrates a consistant effort to eliminate or enslave them, I think they are more than justified planning for the worst possible outcome.

    I won’t argue that their recent actions were specifically designed to send a message to our government officials, but again maybe they just don’t trust those currently in office. Now does that mean we need to continue our support, no not any more that we continue our support for any other so-called ally.

    As I have said before, we need to get our noses out of everyone else’s business and focus our energy’s back here on the homefront. Besides, with the exception of an all out WW Israel can pretty much take care of themselves.

    As for Biden, he is a buffoon, and a buffoon in a position of power. Good news is that he is on a short leash, although that doesn’t seem to prevent his foot-in-mouth problem. But then what would you expect from a buffoon?

    As for Matthews, well he is just a total waste of flesh spewing filth and hatred where ever and whenever he can. The man is nothing more that an oxygen theif; I’m just glad he doesn’t live close enough to me to steal my oxygen.

    That’s all I have to say about that

    CM

    • Buck The Wala says:

      Well CM, you mostly had me in complete agreement. Israel’s actions can clearly be explained by circumstance – they are surrounded by increasingly hostile enemies, many of whom vehemently believe Israel should not exist. Only a matter of time before Israel goes on the offense.

      Then I got to the line of “Maybe they [Israelis] know for sure that Obama was and still is a Muslim”.

      First, by all indications, he is not Muslim.

      Second, if he was Muslim (and more importantly in my opinion), SO WHAT?

      • Buck,

        If he is a Muslim, then he intentionally lied to the American people to get elected.

      • Buck;

        I don’t care if he is or he is not, but the fact that he is or was or never was is not really the issue. The issue, at least it seems, is that Israel does not seem to afford him the same amount of trust they did of Bush, or Clinton or Reagan. Maybe it has something to do with the bowing and the fact that he (obama) has already visited with Israel’s enemies leaders, but sends a buffoon to them.

        I guess if my strongest ally visited with all my enemies leaders, but refused to visit me I might be a bit suspicious.

        Maybe Biden should have gone to Saudia Arabia and others and obama visits Israel; at least the buffoon woudn’t have bowed to anyone.

        I just believe that Israel pays more attention to the tounge’s in the shoes more than they do the tounges in the mouths.

        CM

        • Buck The Wala says:

          I agree that Obama should definitely have personally visited Israel. But Obama should have also visited the other countries, as he did.

          Perhaps part of the reason Obama isn’t afforded the same amount of trust is because he is new to the game. The Israelis have dealt with the Clintons for years. Perhaps part of the reason is his inaction with regards to Israeli affairs. Perhaps part is simply due to time – after years of on-again-off-again peace talks, negotiations, etc., the Israelis are simply fed up and going to act offensively to assert their own interests regardless of who is in power in the US.

        • v. Holland says:

          Thought this was interesting since it was from an Israeli’s view point.

          Ship of Fools: The Obama Administration’s Stunning Israel Incompetence

          Anti Israel – Start to Finish.

          Capping off a year of stunning Obama incompetence, Joe Biden has come to Israel to re-enforce the Obama administration’s friendship with our country. To err it seems is human, to be stunningly incompetent however is all Obama. Domestically, internationally, any way you slice or dice it so far this President is failing and doing so on an epic scale.

          “Solid B+” he cockily intoned while self grading himself on TV. Oh what a sheltered life we lead over there at 1600 Pennsylvania avenue. On the foreign affairs front, nowhere has the failure been more evident than in the US / Israel relationship. The State of Israel is currently more popular with Americans than the President himself! We’re polling better than him according to Gallup figures, near record highs! How embarrassing for the Appeaser in Chief.

          Smiles all around

          Obama smiles, Joe Biden smiles, Netanyahu smiles. It’s all wonderful but it can’t cover up the latent animosity. Its an animus generated by the US President himself, and a cadre of advisers who let’s not mince words – Don’t like Israel and never have. They identify with the Palestinians. The White House calls it Muslim outreach, in the real world we like to call it yet another grandiose heaping pile of steaming failure.

          Let’s Examine the Record

          * No one in Israel has forgotten how the President in Cairo delegitmized our entire being here in Israel. A massive affront, felt across every Israeli political stripe. Mr. Obama with his teleprompters single handedly managed to rally 80% of the Israeli public around our right wing Prime Minister, an event until now seen only in times of WAR! Shockwaves rippled across Israel, President clueless was oblivious.

          * Instead of bridging the gaps he himself had created, perhaps by reaching out to the Israeli public now clearly distrustful of him, the President instead pursued his course of folly. He opted to lord the existential Iranian sword hanging over us to force Israel into a building freeze across the West Bank. So instead of pressuring Iran where the real action was at, he issued threats to Israel, ingenious really! Priority number one was his pet project, the Palestinians. Quid Pro Quo it was called. Well we quidded, quidded building in the West Bank that is. Where’s the Quo? Failed engagement, stalled sanctions, and a chorus of advisers & veiled threats against Israel should we choose to defend ourselves. Incidentally – The Palestinians rejected our unprecedented concessions, and refused to talk about anything, let alone peace.. While the Iranians suffered a coup d’etat.

          * When Israeli polling showed only 4% of Israelis felt the President was a friend and pro-Israel ally, (shocking numbers similarly simply unheard of in the annals of Israeli history.) The President still forged onward, sailing his ship of fools. He sent Hillary to lecture us on where we can or cannot build in our own Capital! His promises to Jewish American ears in order to get elected were left simply by the way side – Just words.

          * When it had become clear to everyone including both the right & left in American media that the pressure gambits on Israel regarding settlements were a dismal failure; When it dawned that engagement follies were ill conceived, planned & implemented in every way. When it dawned the real source of intransigence preventing peace talks were the Palestinians themselves, who simply point blank refused to engage. Did the President assign blame? Of course not. Instead he chose to save that card, preferring to play it against Israel at the nearest opportunity we now learn.

          * When American Jewish Democrats became disillusioned with their own Messiah, flanked by Israeli leftists begging the President to come to Israel & explain his folly. Months later whom did he send? Joe Biden. While we are honored to receive the US VP, it sent the message loud & clear. Muslims are priority #1 for President Obama. The Jews? Not so much. Worse, Biden was clearly sent here not to clean up Obama’s messes with Israel, but to warn us yet again against striking Iran. Endearing really.

          * When we excluded Jerusalem from our building freeze, openly – matter of factly. Did Obama get the message? Or was his giant ego utterly incapable of absorbing even basic realities? The answer seems clear enough, Joe Biden has thrown a hissy fit here WHILE in Israel over our declared building plans in Jerusalem, last night he made Bibi wait 90 minutes with dinner on the table. Apparently we’ve endangered the mockery that is Obama’s greatest achievement. Non existent INDIRECT talks with the Palestinians. Frankly, Bush could achieve more in a night’s sleep than this President can in a year of failures, next time tell Biden the Kitchen is closed, send him out for a slice of Pizza instead.

          Just like the UK, Honduras, France, The Czechs and a litany of other nations it boils down to one thing. None of us trust the President of the United States. Incidentally Chris Matthews – It’s not because he’s black. It’s because for all his academic prowess he seems to have a learning disability. Yes ladies & gentlemen, the President is an ideologue, an educated moron cum laude.

          Harvard spits them out like Big Macs these days apparently.

          http://hashmonean.com/

      • Buck

        Israel’s actions are a matter of circumstance yet their Arab/Syrian neighbors actions are a matter of …………..what exactly?

        Did we all forget that the World Govt decided to create this country right in the middle of someone elses country?

        Unless of course we want to go way back in time to find the nation of Israel. But then we could go even further to when it did not exist, then it did, then it did not.

        I think you get the idea.

        The jewish people got their Jewish State by force. Lets grant that is “history” as they say. But what reasonable person would not expect the previous occupants to not fight for their land.

        And of course the state of Israel decides to violate the UN charters and treaties that granted them the country and it is the neighbors fault the fight back.

        Geeeesh. The logic of this whole issue simply escapes me.

        Time for another cup of jo’
        JAC

        • JAC;

          “Holy can of worms Batman”, Israel is or is not a legitimate country and is one by force? True as it maybe, they did have a stronger supporter than the UN once upon a time…

          BTW: seems my knowledge of history reminds me that you and I both know of another and much younger country that declared itself so by force.

          Why does Israel not have a right to defend their land as much as the US, Canada, and about 14 or so others?

          Hope you are well and thawing out my western friend. The snow is all but gone here and the temps are rising. The last few days have been abundent sunshine and 50 – 60 degrees.

          CM

          • CM

            Yep, we stole it fair and square.

            They got theirs as well. That is not the issue nor their right to DEFEND it.

            But then those who owned it also have the RIGHT to DEFEND it, do they not?

            Israel must live within the boundaries dictated as terms of its creation. Otherwise they will suffer a fate dictated by their actions.

            My point is that they can do it ALONE. If they are unwilling to do what is needed to stop another major war then they can do it ALONE.

            America first my friend, America first. Defending Israel agains all comers is not in our best interest.

            It is the beginning of spring in the Rockies. Warm in the 60’s one day, snowing the next and back again. Grass is starting to green and the willows are turning.

            Here’s to a great weekend coming up.
            JAC

            • JAC

              Yes America first and foremost…always, however when evil is left to florish it will soon grow to an unmanagible magnitude.

              What then?

              I know others out there will disagree with me, but I do not believe that tyrannical minded individuals and the countries they control are content with being left alone.

              The world has always spawned those who would oppress all that they could for as long as they could and no amount of gain will satisfy them.

              I do feel that America has enough issues here at home that we need to focus our efforts accordingly, but if evil is left unchecked then that evil will eventually get around to sticking their noses where they don’t belong.

              So, for the time being we focus on getting our own house in order, if for no other reason than to prepare for the eventual attempt. By doind so we can’t be any less prepared.

              CM

            • JAC,

              “Israel must live within the boundaries dictated as terms of its creation. Otherwise they will suffer a fate dictated by their actions.”

              By that argument, does the US not need to return Texas, New Mexico and Southern California? We took their territory by force.

              • LOI

                NO!

                Do you not recognize the serious difference?

                I do believe there was a treaty signed ceding those lands after we stole them.

                Israel was created by action of other nations and has been supported by such ever since. All though we are the biggest and most recognizable one standing next to them.

                The issue at hand is not Israels existence or rights by conquest. It is what is necessary for a chance of peace to exist in the region that includes Israel as a nation state.

                We are embroiled in a mess where each side points to the other and claims “he started it”. We can not take sides in that kind of argument.

                Here is the bottom line:

                Israel can go ahead and take what it wants, on its own.

                It can try to defend its actions, on its own.

                It should suffer the consequences of its acions, on its own.

                If they want OUR help to find peace then our condition should be for them to pull back. Because otherwise we are seen as an agent of their conquest.

                Placing us in the position as Pretzel noted below of being at war with those we are trying to play “negotiator” with.

                By the way, in the long run there will be no boundaries known as US and Mexico so the issue of the war with Mexico will be moot. Now that should start the brain to heat up. LOL

                JAC

              • Buck The Wala says:

                JAC,

                You seem to forget that Israel has been more than willing to cede land in the past. That is not enough for the surrounding countries, which want nothing less than Israel’s non-existence.

              • Buck

                I do not forget that at all nor do I discount it.

                This is about OUR involvment.

                They are free to defend what they have or take more if they think they can.

                But NOT with our involvment or support.

                It is THEIR concern, NOT OURS.

              • Buck The Wala says:

                And as I said, we (the US) will continue to support Israel so long as we determine doing so is in our best interests.

                This is proven by the fact that, for all of our support, we have been much more critical of Israel’s policies over the last number of years.

              • Buck,

                What a bizarre statement.

                I steal all of your property and then say, well, I’ll let you have your baseball collection back – and to you, that absolves me?

              • Buck The Wala says:

                You attacked me, swinging your bat, throwing your baseballs, flinging your cards. I grabbed everything you swung/threw/flung.

                In in interests of peace sure I’ll give you back your cards. But if you fling them at me again, I will keep them.

        • JAC:

          I think you have to take it up with God himself. The Israelis have the Bible to back them up. That’s all I have to say about that. No need to piss God off

          • Anita

            Then let God and Israel sort it out.

            It is immoral to expend one single American life on behalf of Israel or any other country’s self proclaimed destiny.

            One other little detail.. Who wrote the Bible?

            He who writes the history makes the history.

            Happy Friday
            JAC

            • Buck The Wala says:

              1) It is not immoral to expend a single American life on behalf of Israel if it is determined that it is in America’s best interests as well. Tragic, but not immoral.

              2) Old white men!

              • Buck

                “2) Old white men!”

                Nice try but not precise now are you.

                They weren’t our Founding Fathers Buck. The Old White Men title is the lefts description of our founders, not the …………. who wrote the various books of the Bible.

                Go ahead, you can say it. Its not a racist thing it is simply the truth of history.

              • Buck The Wala says:

                Ok…Men.

                I don’t know how old they were. And given the region they may not have been white.

              • Buck

                Funny!

                Just can’t bring yourself to say it can you?

              • Buck The Wala says:

                Say what? Not sure what you’re getting at here.

              • Buck

                Anita was using the Bibles story that God gave the Jews the land of Israel.

                My point is that the Jews wrote the chapters that were later colated into the bible. That includes those that became jewish Christians.

                It is the story of their history as they wrote it.

                It was a caution against using the Bible as the definitive answer on all things jewish or christian.

                Kind of like relying on our modern history books for all things American.

              • Buck The Wala says:

                Gotcha, but I still like my answer more…

            • JAC

              Wow, you are operating from an extremely high position today aren’t you buddy?

              I do absolutely agree on the expending of an American life for anyone though…

              Bring them home…the sooner the better, and when they get back make sure they get some serious help with re-acclimating into society…but that is another discussion for another day

              CM

        • Buck The Wala says:

          JAC,

          I think you need to take a closer look at the surrounding history.

          Yes there was some force involved, but it didn’t happen exactly as you say.

          Prior to WWII (much much prior…) Israelis had a claim to that land. So did Arabs and Palestinians and pretty much everyone else. During WWII, European Jews fled to Palestine to escape Nazi Germany. Immediately after WWII the British government (then in control of Palestine) declared the Palestinian Mandate (with UN approval) which basically created two states – Israel and Palestine. This was in 1947 I believe. In 1948, the Israelis declared independence – not over the entire region but over ‘their’ land under the Mandate. Palestinians then attacked Israel to drive them out. Israel fought back and won more land expanding their boundaries.

          • Buck

            And how is that different than what I portrayed?

            Outside forces created the two states by placing a jewish state inside the Arab lands.

            Israel has since then EXPANDED the area it claims under its control. It is occupying land assigned to the other side by the same benevolent power that created the situation.

            This has been going on for centuries. The various sides expanding, invading, shrinking, invading, expanding. But now we want to look through only one lense of the binoculars. This story has more than one chapter Buck.

            As Americans we need to start recognizing the entire story and start treating all the player exactly the same. Anything else is NOT in OUR best interest.

            Think about what is in OUR best interest. Is that defending Israel or is it siding with the persians and arabs who control all the oil?

            No wonder why we find ourselves at odds with the Russians and Chinese in the region. They understand self interest better than we do.

            • Buck The Wala says:

              Yes it goes back centuries, and therein lies the problem – there is no easy answer, no one country ‘at fault’.

              But when you are attacked and while fighting against your enemy you take their land it can become your land. That is how countries and borders are often established throughout history. Why should it be any different in this case?

              I support Israel’s right to exist. That being said, I do not blindly support all of their policies. I think the Obama administration was right to criticize these settlements.

              Whether or not we should side with Israel does depend to a large degree on what is in America’s best interests. But just because surrounding nations have oil does not automatically mean that we should be siding with them.

              • Buck

                But when you are attacked and while fighting against your enemy you take their land it can become your land. That is how countries and borders are often established throughout history. Why should it be any different in this case

                Because, Buck, after WW2 it was wholly against international law to extend one’s borders by war. Such action is a war crime.

                Israeli action has contravened UN more than any other nation on earth.

        • v. Holland says:

          You bring up Israel breaking the UN mandate but leave out the fact that the UN mandate was IMO nothing short of rewarding the Palestinians for attacking Israel which was going against the British mandate. I don’t understand the mind set=that Israel can be attacked, can go to war and win but are expected to give back any land that they conquer during the battle-If the Palestine’s had won any of these wars do you think they would have given the land back to Israel? I think not-so is Israel supposed to continue fighting and dying just to reward and encourage the Palestine’s by continuing to give them back land-I don’t think so-maybe the answer to achieving peace is for Israel to get bigger and stronger and to make going to war against them a lot more costly to their enemies.

          • V. Holland,

            I beat Buck over the head with this, and now its your turn.

            You are using a hypothetical situation – “Arabs won the war of 1948” to justify the real situation of Israeli war crimes.

            You are using a fantasy to justify evil acts in reality.

            “Bop” on the beanie!

            • v. Holland says:

              Bop away my Friend 🙂 The evil has been done on both sides and my thought process may be based on the hypothetical out of necessity -it is still the obvious conclusion that the Palestinian’s would not give back the land since their original fighting was over the Israelis not having the right to have a state nation in the first place.

              • V.,

                How can you have an “obvious conclusion” to a fantasy?

              • v. Holland says:

                Let’s just call it my theory based on the information I have, or maybe a reasonable hypothesis-bet I could test my hypothesis just by asking a few Palestinians. 🙂

              • You issued violence on a non-violent sweet female by bopping her. I have her back. POW !!!

              • v. Holland says:

                He He HE-Thanks Anita- and your right he did-I wanted to knock some people up side the head once and he told me I couldn’t-sounds like a contradiction to me. 😆

              • The world is coming to an end. First Matt flips on us. Now Black Flag. 🙂

  3. Nice can of worms you opened to day, USW. I think that I will read a few posts before answering.

    Top o th mornin to ya….

  4. Biden was chosen for his foreign policy experience. We just need to sit back and watch the master work. With Matthews, this is gonna look like a Lewis and Martin movie, them flying off into the sunset as the bombs start to burst. Matthews is fringe left, and should simply be ignored, except this administration has chosen to place him in a key role. Why, why why? Riots in Greece as they try to salvage their economy, and we send our abrasive VP into the Middle East powderkeg.

    There will be no peace until Palestinian leadership will recognize Israel’s right to exist. That the Palestinian people continue to elect leaders who call for the destruction of all Jew’s makes it clear where all peace efforts will end. So the US would be better off to back off and let them deal with this themselves. If war comes, Iran, Syria, we should supply support, as we did in the Yom Kippur War.

    Back to the whys. Would it help this administration if foreign crisis were to increase? More armed conflicts and countries in economic distress would lead to
    a spike in gas prices and increased economic hardships for the US? $8 a gallon gas, the people would demand the government step in and do something.

  5. v. Holland says:

    I don’t remember Obama visiting Israel when he went on his extensive visiting and making speeches tour when he first became President-Have looked on internet to try and confirm my memory-found nothing that says he did- Gotta wonder why and wonder if that may be part of the being insulted because he didn’t go to Israel his self.

    I too have to wonder WHY Matthews was chosen-was that meant to insure an insult?

  6. USW

    I knew it…..your not only a racist your an anti Semite as well.

    You damn conservative racists, hiding behind your rhetoric about liberty and USA self interest.

    Oh god, it hurts to laugh so hard. Coffee shooting out my nose……….OTFLMAO

    🙂 🙂

    • That’s not true… Some of my best friends are Jews.

      Couldn’t help myself since those folks at HuffPo cited “I have black friends” as one of the most common phrases uttered by those who are racist.

      In reality, I have no problem with the people of Israel. I do have issue with their government, who seems to have a penchant for escalating things where not needed. And I don’t advocate for the end of Israel. I simply think the US should stop being their hired protection. Let them hire Kevin Costner. He’s got that sword after all.

      Thanks for making me giggle this morning. Rainy and crappy here. Needed the pick me up.

      USW

  7. v. Holland says:

    I just love this map-and I ask one more time-How can anyone claim that someone specific had claim to this land. Throughout history it has been more of a matter of who could hold onto it. It would be nice if after centuries of fighting, the people in that area could just admit that even though the controlling countries at the time gave this land to the Israelis they also gave a much larger portion to the Palestinians and the other countries are using the Palestinians as a tool to continue this war based on nothing IMO but hate.

    http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

    • V.H.

      Thanks for the link. I couldn’t find it when first posting this morning.

      I think the map make the point perfectly.

      I think your conclusion about using the Palestinians as a tool may have some truth but there is also real issues with folks in the region over Israels expansion and failure to return the lands given to the Palestinians.

      Until they are left to their own devices I see no chance of peaceful resolution.

      Hope your Friday unfolds wonderfuly
      JAC

      • v. Holland says:

        I realize that there are present day problems and the Palestinians are being mistreated but I believe their problems are of their own making presently and were caused by their own family members decisions in the past. Everything I have read about this conflict shows that the Palestinians were given an Arab Palestinian nation by the British and that nation lies in present day Jordan-they have been diligently working for years to make this debate based on this small area of land as if the Israelis are trying to occupy All of Palestine, when in reality-Jordan is the state that was given to the Palestine’s as an Arab state-They are now and have been trying to form a second Arab state for the Palestinians so personally I think Israel should keep all the land that they have had to die for these last 60 odd years and the Palestinians should move into Jordan. I am posting a web site that shows various maps that I think explains my thinking better than I can. One last thing-I don’t personally believe giving the Palestine the land they say is theirs will promote peace-I simply think it will make Israel more vulnerable and the Palestine more aggressive.

    • Buck The Wala says:

      Great map – thanks VH!

  8. v. Holland says:

    I also think this web site is very informative on the history of the Mid-east-if anyone has the time to read it.

    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/

  9. Pretzel 73 says:

    Am I the only one that thinks this scenario is a bit bizarre? On one hand you have the U.S. government presently in two wars. On the other they are trying to be a peace mediator. This is like a 450 pound man teaching diet and physical fitness. Contradictions maybe? How or why could anyone take either seriously?

  10. Bottom Line says:

    We have plenty of our own problems to deal with.

    We need to stay out of middle eastern affairs”.”<—(period)

    We need to withdraw all of our forces and chill with our drama queen/king style war seed planting oil hogging war profiteering so-called diplomacy.

    We don't need them. We don't need their problems.

    Why should we care?

    I don't.

    I don't care about Israel, or Palestine, or Lebanon, or Syria, or Iraq, or Iran or Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, or Yemen, or UAE, etc…etc…

    I don't care about Allah, or Yahweh, or their religious wars, their territory/borders, their nuclear capabilities, their oil, etc…etc…

    I don't care if they all blow each other up.

    In fact, I kinda hope they go ahead and get it over with. THEIR problems solved.

    No more middle east = no more middle eastern bullshit

    • Search the Web on Snap.com says:

      I’d say that was pretty much the bottom line! LMAO… THAT was funny!

      • That was me by the way…LOL, not quite sure who snap is 😉

        • Bottom Line says:

          Yeah, I’m in a bottom line cut the crap kinda mood today.

          😀

          • Your solution is ok with me. I would have more assets to put on the border.

            • Bottom Line says:

              Good day to you Colonel.

              The BL strategy:

              ~Change our foreign policy in the middle east to a “deal with it yourselves” kind of strategy.

              ~Bring our troops back home and rotate them from a past due and much deserved leave period to our southern border with Mexico.

              ~Build the necessary facilities to tap into more of our own oil, and leave them in a stand-by ready position.

              ~Invest in alternative energy technology and minimize oil consumption/demand.

              ~Continue to purchase middle eastern oil. Use theirs first. Save our oil for last when it will be worth much more. If problems should arise, we just have to turn our own tap to the ON position. So what if they blow themselves up.

              …Several problems solved. It’s not that damn complicated. If little ol’ nobody me can figure this out – surely they can too. So what’s their major malfunction?

              A: Refer to below reply to Cyndi.

    • I like it!

      I used to work with a gentleman from India. I asked how he felt about the India-Pakistan conflict and nukes. He said he didn’t give a shit and didn’t care if they nuked each other. He like you, seemed very fed up with the idiocy of the parties involved. It wasn’t what I expected because he still had family in India.

      • Bottom Line says:

        Cyndi,

        Ya got me on a roll now…

        For decades, our government and others have been exploiting the vulnerabilities of the developmental stage of middle eastern countries.

        There has been this subvert and sabotage – divide and conquer strategy for the ultimate reason being more money and power for those that are already wealthy and powerful.

        We rationalize and support our government’s actions by telling ourselves that people like Saddam Hussein needed to go and that invasion and nation building is justifiable.

        Bullshit – There was no threat to us and if we really wanted to… We could have easily taken him out by lesser means. Invasion was only necessary to justify more contracts to build more and better war toys and and for more control of oil.

        Who benefits?

        The Iraqi people getting shot up and bombed everyday? Our troops getting shot up and bombed everyday? The tax paying American people that were never threatened in the first place?

        They stir up shit just to create a mess to clean up and control. Tear it up and rebuild it the way they want.

        Play both sides and give them both weapons as a later excuse to invade in the name of peace and stability in the region.

        First world industrialized Imperialism via “Order out of Chaos”

        Do we really need to be meddling in the affairs of the middle east?

        I think not. We have our own oil and the technology to minimize demand.

        • If I comment on any of this, will it just encourage you? I wouldn’t want you to blow a gasket or something this fine Friday (for you at least) 😉

          • Bottom Line says:

            I woke up like this today…Not much encouragement needed. I was just using you as an excuse. hehe

            😉

            • Bottom Line says:

              Further…

              I’m not in an angry mood or anything. It’s not like I’m gonna blow a gasket.

              I think often times I am mistaken for being angry when I’m really just being blunt and calling it like I see it.

              Today is more like a day of clarity.

              BS looks like glass.

        • Bottom Line says:

          System Of A Down – BYOB

  11. Judy Sabatini says:

    Hello Everyone

    Reading along for now.

    Hope you all will have a good day.

    Judy

  12. I wonder why there is no one questioning their intent the same way that we are questioning Iran’s intent.

    Maybe because aka.nut.job is running around the arab world telling his immans how he is going to decimate Israel once he gets the bomb. Other than that im not sure, maybe because Israel already has nuclear weapons so when they say they want it for energy than maybe we give them more credit than a nut job holocaust denier.

    Sorry for the subtelty, but the whole idea of Israel building homes on their land has any connection to peace in the regionplays right in the hands of who the real bully is. you give us land this yr and we wont annihilate you, then couple yrs later you give us this land and we wont annihilate you..
    Clinton had Israel giving the arabs everything they asked for landwise and more, but it didnt include Israel being wiped out of the country and it didnt include all of Israeli land..the arabs turned it down..

    • Ty

      One minor point of order. The PLO didn’t accept it, and Arafat was more concerned with keeping his free Cookies than finding peace.

      We should not lump the entire Arab world into that decison at that time in history.

      The Arab world is not a friend of the persian leader you mention. We are fighting their war as well as Israel’s. Now how is that for irony?

      A Pretzel to say the least.

      Best wishes Ty. Nice to see you popping in again.
      JAC

  13. MEIR GREENFELD says:

    ONE OF THE PROBLEM IN ISRAEL THAT ISRAEL AFRAID FROM UNITED STATE THAT IN MANY CASES HAS DIFFERENT INTEREST THE ISRAELI DOING BASIC MISTAKE NOT STANDING UP AGAINST UNITED STATE SOONER OR LATER . UNITED STATE WILL TURN THE BACK ON ISRAEL . WE THE ISRAELI HAS TO LEAVE OUR LAND BECAUSE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT GIVE UP THE BROUGHT US TO ISRAEL TO SUFFER . NO LAND NO HOUSES . UNITED STATE AND EUROPEAN INTERFEAR IN ISRAEL AFFAIR . JOE BIDEN DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO COME TO ISRAEAL AND TELL US WHAT TO DO . YOU THE ISRAELI ARE “CHICKEN ” AND CORRUPTED . I WILL GIVE BACK YOUR $ 4 BILLION MR AMERICA THE BUY US AND DESTROY MANY ISRAEL LIFE MR NATNUHO GET OUT FROM YOUR POST AS PRIME MINSTER . WE HAVE TO STAND UP TO THE TERRORIST AND PEPLE LIKE JIMMY CARTER AND JOE BIDEN . WHICH SUPPORT THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL .
    I POSTED BEFORE AND I KNOW FAIR WELL AMERICA ISNT FIEND OF ISRAEL ALSO THE EUROPEAN . THIS CHANGING THE LAW IN ISRAEL JUST DESTROY ISRAEL FURTHER FOR DESTNCTION . I EVEN COOL OF ANY RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ISRAEL AND AMERICA . DEFINITELY I WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS DIRTY MONEY THAT USA BUY US WITH CORRUPTED 4 BILLION DOLLAR A YEAR .
    THE END OF ISRAEL IS COMING . IF THE CANNOT STAND ON THEIR OWN .
    ARE THE CORRUPTED USA WITH 10 TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT . GO TO EGYPT AND AND TELL THEM THE DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT ON THE LAND . THE ISRAELI HAVE TO REPLACE THIS GOVERNMENT . THAT THEY ARE ANTI ISRAELI

  14. posting for comments

  15. A Puritan Descendant says:

    My perception of reality may be different than what seems to be the accepted history of this country. That is “We stole this country from the Indians”. During my own genealogical research of my ancestors of early New England it became clear that as settlers began arriving they made an attempt to treat the Indians fairly. There was often harsh punishment for abusing the Indians. One of my ancestors struck an Indian in the mouth with the butt of gun and received a sentence of so many lashes with a whip. The Town of Springfield, Mass., was purchased by deed from the Indians. The Deed can be found on Google books. Springfield at that time was much larger. The same happened for many Towns, they were purchased. The Indians were allowed to stay in Springfield if they chose to. Many were quite friendly with the new arrivals.

    In 1675 King Phillip (an Indian chief) declared war. Apparently the rapidly growing large families of the settlers changed the views of many of the Indians. They realized they made an error selling us these Towns. Springfield was burned to the ground and my own surname ancestor and at least one other of my ancestors was ambushed and killed. A friendly Indian warned the inhabitants of Springfield and many survived as they had time to hide. Many other Towns were also attacked and burned. How could the settlers survive with their farm goods, stream powered mills, and homes being destroyed? They couldn’t. This war changed everything. In short it was the beginning of the end for the American Indian. At that point the settlers were from then on, were on a mission to destroy them. (Generally speaking).

    Judge for yourself. At that point after 50+ years of being here the settlers and there grand children couldn’t be expected to do the politically correct thing of today and simply swim home. Sometimes bad things happen, especially in harsh times as those were. There were some bad people back then, no doubt, but all in all I don’t see it so simple as “We stole this country from the Indians”.

    • Puritan

      I have never said we JUST stole it.

      We stole it fair and square.

      That is my oversimplified version of a very long and complicated history in N. America. One that for my ancestors predates even yours. Although I can not prove bloodlines of course. It is simply a matter of scandanavian bragging rights passed down from generation to generation.

      Good day to you Puritan
      JAC

      • A Puritan Descendant says:

        Hi JAC,
        Sri for the delay, just got back. No problem. I am often ready to point out my perception of our history because so many people today have no knowledge of our history. They may just accept what they hear. Today they so often hear that America was stolen from the Indians. I doubt many of our schools today teach that we actually bought land from the Indians. Those confronted with the facts of deeds the Indians signed, then jump and say they did not understand. They understood those agreements for 50 + years until they realized they should not have sold in the first place.

        • Buck The Wala says:

          As I recall, Manhattan was purchased from the Indians for a handful of beads.

          • A Puritan Descendant says:

            I don’t know about Manhatten. I forget what was paid for Springfield, but I think it was a certain number of knives, axes, other things, and probably “Wampom” (sp?) which was money to the Indians.

          • A Puritan Descendant says:

            So you can see right there where people think the Indians got screwed. They hear BEADS and think how silly. But those beads were worth at least as much as our paper money today.

            • Buck The Wala says:

              Yes and no. Did a little digging and the current value of what we paid for Manhattan is around $72.00

              I’m not saying that we screwed them over. I could be mistaken but didn’t most Indian tribes see the land as belonging to everyone (or no one, depending on how you look at it)? If that’s the case we bought something from they that they didn’t believe they owned to begin with.

              • A Puritan Descendant says:

                So they decided to screw the English from the start, heh. In truth I don’t ‘blame’ either side. Had I been an Indian back then I probably would have made the same decisions they did. And had I been an Englishman back then I would have made the same decisions they did. What happened is what happened.

              • Buck The Wala says:

                Exactly.

              • Buck

                Its not that red and white.

                It is my understanding the Eastern tribes had very specific territories and defended them with a vengence.

                Western tribes the same but the boundaries seemed a little fuzzier. More space and not nearly the long history.

                By the way, the $72 in beads is a good lesson in what is money. We claim it was $72. But we have no idea how valuable those beads were to THEM. From their perspective they may have been laughing all the way to the bank.

      • So, JAC…Amber or Pale?

        How are you today, friend JAC?

        I am writing a guest article for you to peruse and destroy me on….

    • I think a fair number of Indians also adopted our ways and assimilated.

      • A Puritan Descendant says:

        Yes, no doubt.

        I think where they may have made a mistake by selling us their land (assuming it was theirs to begin with), is they did not realize how prosperous the English could be.

        We bred like rats with 10 children common and 18 not out of the question. The Indian lived here for centuries in balance with nature with their harsh existence. We came here and in just 50 years were becoming a population problem.

        This had to scare them!

  16. I believe there is a very simple solution to the problem.

    1. Accept this fact: In September 1947, one month after Partition of India, (UNSCOP) recommended partition in Palestine, a suggestion ratified by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947. The result envisaged the creation of two states, one Arab and one Jewish, with the city of Jerusalem to be under the direct administration of the United Nations.

    2. Accept as fact: On May 14, 1948, the last British forces left Haifa, and the Jewish Agency, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the creation of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Both superpower leaders, U.S. President Harry S. Truman and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, immediately recognized the new state.

    3. Accept as fact: Arab League members Egypt, TransJordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq declared war and announced their rejection of the UN partition decision. They claimed the right of self-determination for the Arabs of Palestine over the whole of Palestine. Saudi-Arabia and Sudan also sent forces. UN Secretary General Trygve Lie described this as the first armed aggression which the world had seen since the end of the war”.

    The invading Egyptian and Iraqi armies were poorly trained and equipped as the British had feared they would support the Nazis during the Second World War. The Jordanian “Arab Legion” however, was well trained and had aided the British in Palestine. Many Arab Legion forces were still in Palestine when the British left. Arab Legion commanders were high-ranking British officers (who resigned from the British Army in 1948). The Commander-in-Chief was a British General, Glubb Pasha.

    The invading Arab armies were initially successful but met far harder Jewish resistance than they expected, causing them to slow their advance. On May 29, 1948 the British initiated United Nations Security Council Resolution 50 and declared an arms embargo on the region. Czechoslovakia violated the resolution supplying the Jewish state with critical military hardware to match the heavy equipment and planes available to the invading Arab states (who were supplied by Britain).

    4. Accept as fact: In March 1949, after many months of battle, a permanent ceasefire went into effect and Israel’s interim borders, later known as the Green Line, were established. By that time Israel had conquered the Galilee and Negev, however the Syrians remained in control of a strip of territory along the Sea of Galilee originally allocated to the Jewish state, the Lebanese occupied a tiny area at Rosh Hanikra and the Egyptians held the Gaza strip and had some forces surrounded inside Jewish territory. The Jordanians had occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

    5. Accept this one major fact: At the end of the war, Egypt remained in occupation of the Gaza Strip and Transjordan annexed the “West Bank” and eastern Jerusalem, including the Old City. Jordan and Egypt did not establish an independent state for Palestinian Arabs and made no effort to facilitate the establishment of Palestine. Except in Jordan, Arab refugees that left Palestine were settled in refugee camps and denied full citizenship and rights by the Arab countries that hosted them.

    6. Accept the fact: In 1964, Egypt, Jordan and Syria developed a unified military command. Israel completed work on a national water carrier, a huge engineering project designed to transfer Israel’s allocation of the Jordan river’s waters towards the south of the country in realization of Ben-Gurion’s dream of mass Jewish settlement of the Negev desert. The Arabs responded by trying to divert the headwaters of the Jordan and this led to growing conflict between Israel and Syria.

    7. Accept the fact: On May 17, 1967, Syria, Egypt and Jordan amassed troops along the Israeli borders and Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Nasser demanded that the UNEF leave Sinai, threatening escalation to a full war. Egyptian radio broadcasts talked of a coming genocide. Israel responded by calling up its civilian reserves, bringing much of the Israeli economy to a halt. The Israelis set up a national unity coalition, including for the first time Menachem Begin’s party, Herut in a coalition.

    8. Accept as fact: On June 4, 1967, the Israeli air force launched pre-emptive attacks destroying first the Egyptian air force and then later the same day destroying the air forces of Jordan and Syria. Israel then defeated (almost successively) Egypt, Jordan and Syria. By June 11 the Arab forces were routed and all parties had accepted the cease-fire called for by UN Security Council Resolutions 235 and 236.

    Israel gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the formerly Jordanian-controlled West Bank of the Jordan River. East Jerusalem was immediately arguably[71] annexed by Israel and its population granted Israeli citizenship. Other areas occupied remained under military rule (Israeli civil law did not apply to them) pending a final settlement. The Golan was also annexed in 1981.

    On November 22, 1967, the Security Council adopted Resolution 242, the “land for peace” formula, which called for the establishment of a just and lasting peace based on Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967 in return for the end of all states of belligerency, respect for the sovereignty of all states in the area, and the right to live in peace within secure, recognized boundaries. The resolution was accepted by both sides, though with different interpretations, and eventually provided the basis for peace negotiations.

    For the first time since the end of the British Mandate, Jews could visit the Old City of Jerusalem and pray at the Western Wall to which they had been denied access by the Jordanians (in contravention of the 1949 Armistice agreement). In Hebron, Jews gained access to the Cave of the Patriarchs (the second most holy site in Judaism) for the first time since the 14th Century (previously Jews were only allowed to pray at the entrance). A third Jewish holy site, Rachel’s Tomb, in Bethlehem, also became accessible.

    9. Accept as fact: In September 1970 King Hussein of Jordan drove the Palestine Liberation Organization out of his country. On 18 September 1970 Syrian tanks invaded Jordan, intending to aid the PLO. At the request of the USA, Israel moved troops to the border and threatened Syria, causing the Syrians to withdraw. The center of PLO activity then shifted to Lebanon, where the 1969 Cairo agreement gave the Palestinians autonomy within the south of the country. The area controlled by the PLO became known by the international press and locals as “Fatahland” and contributed to the 1975-1990 Lebanese Civil War.

    10. Accept as fact: The 1972 expulsion of Soviet advisors by the new Egyptian President, Anwar Sadat, led to Israeli complacency about the military threat from the Arab world. In 1973, 11 days before Yom Kippur, King Hussein repaid Israel for its assistance in September 1970 by warning Golda Meir of an impending Syrian attack. Meir ignored the warning. The Yom Kippur War (also known as the October War) began on October 6, 1973 (the Jewish Day of Atonement), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar and a day when adult Jews are required to fast. The Syrian and Egyptian armies launched a well-planned surprise attack against the unprepared Israeli Defense Forces. For the first few days there was a great deal of uncertainty about Israel’s capacity to repel the invaders, however the Syrians were repulsed and, although the Egyptians captured a strip of territory in Sinai, Israeli forces had in turn crossed the Suez Canal and were 100 km. from Cairo. On January 18, 1974, following extensive diplomacy by US Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, a Disengagement of Forces agreement was signed with the Egyptian government, and on May 31 with the Syrian government.

    11. Accept as Fact: In November 1977, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat broke 30 years of hostility with Israel by visiting Jerusalem at the invitation of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. Sadat’s two-day visit included a speech before the Knesset, and was a turning point in the history of the conflict. The Egyptian leader created a new psychological climate in the Middle East in which peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors seemed possible. Sadat recognized Israel’s right to exist and established the basis for direct negotiations between Egypt and Israel.In September 1978, U.S. President Jimmy Carter invited President Sadat and Prime Minister Begin to meet with him at Camp David, and on September 11 they agreed on a framework for peace between Israel and Egypt and a comprehensive peace in the Middle East. It set out broad principles to guide negotiations between Israel and the Arab states. It also established guidelines for a West Bank-Gaza transitional regime of full autonomy for the Palestinians residing in these territories and for a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. The treaty was signed on March 26, 1979, by Begin and Sadat, with President Carter signing as witness. Under the treaty, Israel returned the Sinai peninsula to Egypt in April 1982. The final piece of territory to be repatriated was Taba, adjacent to Eilat, returned in 1989.

    The Arab League reacted to the peace treaty by suspending Egypt from the organization and moving its headquarters from Cairo to Tunis. Sadat was assassinated in 1981 by Islamic fundamentalist members of the Egyptian army who opposed peace with Israel.

    12. Accept as fact: Growing Israeli settlement and continuing occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, led to the first Palestinian Intifada (uprising) in 1987 which lasted until the Madrid Conference of 1991, despite Israeli attempts to suppress it. Human rights abuses by Israeli troops led a group of Israelis to form B’Tselem, an organization devoted to improving awareness and compliance with human rights requirements in Israel.

    13. Accept the fact: In August 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait, triggering the Gulf War between Iraq and a large allied force, led by the United States. Iraq attacked Israel with 39 Scud missiles. Israel did not retaliate. Israel provided gas masks for both the Palestinian population and Israeli citizens. The coalition’s victory in the Gulf War opened new possibilities for regional peace, and in October 1991 the U.S. President, George H.W. Bush and Soviet Union Premier, Mikhail Gorbachev, jointly convened a historic meeting in Madrid of Israeli, Lebanese, Jordanian, Syrian, and Palestinian leaders.

    14. Accept as fact: On September 13, 1993, Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) signed a Declaration of Principles on the South Lawn of the White House. The principles established objectives relating to a transfer of authority from Israel to an interim Palestinian authority, as a prelude to a final treaty establishing a Palestinian state. The DOP established May 1999 as the date by which a permanent status agreement for the West Bank and Gaza Strip would take effect.Israel and the PLO signed the Gaza-Jericho Agreement in May 1994, and the Agreement on Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities in August, which began the process of transferring authority from Israel to the Palestinians.On July 25, 1994 Jordan and Israel signed the Washington Declaration which formally ended the state of war that had existed between them since 1948 and on October 26 the Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace, witnessed by US President Bill Clinton. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat signed the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip on September 28, 1995, in Washington. The agreement was witnessed by President Bill Clinton on behalf of the United States and by Russia, Egypt, Norway and the European Union and incorporates and supersedes the previous agreements, marking the conclusion of the first stage of negotiations between Israel and the PLO. The agreement allowed the PLO leadership to relocate to the occupied territories and granted autonomy to the Palestinians with talks to follow regarding final status. In return the Palestinians promised to abstain from use of terror and changed the Palestinian National Covenant which had called for the expulsion of all Jews who migrated after 1917 and the elimination of Israel.

    The agreement was opposed by Hamas and other Palestinian factions which launched suicide bomber attacks at Israel.

    15. In 2000, Israel unilaterally withdrew its remaining forces from the “security zone” in southern Lebanon. Several thousand members of the South Lebanon Army (and their families) left with the Israelis. The UN Secretary-General concluded that, as of June 16, 2000, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 425. Lebanon claims that Israel continues to occupy Lebanese territory called “Sheba’a Farms” (however this area was governed by Syria until 1967 when Israel took control). The Sheba’a Farms provide Hezbullah with a ruse to maintain warfare with Israel. The Lebanese government did not assert sovereignty in the area (in contravention of the UN resolution) which came under the control of Hezbollah.

    In the Fall of 2000, talks were held at Camp David to reach a final agreement on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Ehud Barak offered to meet most of the Palestinian teams requests for territory and political concessions, including Arab parts of east Jerusalem; however, Arafat abandoned the talks without making a counter proposal.

    16. Accept as fact: The failure of the peace process, increased Palestinian terror, and occasional attacks by Hizbullah from Lebanon led much of the Israeli public and political leadership to lose confidence in the Palestinian Authority as a peace partner. Most felt that many Palestinians viewed the peace treaty with Israel as a temporary measure only. Many Israelis were thus anxious to disengage from the Palestinians.

    In 2005, all Jewish settlers were evacuated from Gaza (some forcibly) and their homes demolished. Disengagement from the Gaza Strip was completed on September 12, 2005. Military disengagement from the northern West Bank was completed ten days later. Following the withdrawal, the Israeli town of Sderot and other Israeli communities near the frontier became subject to constant shelling and mortar bomb attacks from Gaza. The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was interpreted by the Palestinians as a Hamas victory and the January Palestinian legislative election, 2006 was won by Hamas, which rejected all agreements signed with Israel, refused to recognize Israel’s right to exist, and claimed the Holocaust was a Jewish conspiracy.

    Conclusion: This is pretty much where we stand today. History shows that the UN has not recognized Palestine as a state. The Palestinians have been thrown out of other Arab nations. Even their own Arab league does not recognize the Palestinians as a State. History has shown consistent negotiations brokered by the US, Russia, Egypt, and various other countries have not worked and every time that Israel gives concessions, it is never enough. So, here is my solution.

    Obama and Biden have zero credibility in the world anymore. Israel flaunted it in their face. Why….because everyone wants Israel to give more concessions and cede territories rightly won in battle and there is no guarantee of peace.

    HOWEVER…I would try to get Israel to go back to Prewar 1967 boundaries. ( I do not think they should but in the interest of Peace, I would concede. )

    I would then recognize the right of a Palestinian state with boundaries to be set by a worthless UN but there is not anything else.

    I would make Jerusalem like the Vatican. A separate holy city to be governed by the UN.

    Then I would have two caveats. I would demand immediate recognition of Israels right to exist along with Palestine and, I would recognize that one attack by Hamas or Iran or any other backed source originating out of any of the Arab Nations, that Israel has the right to respond with whatever force they deem necessary and retake any lands that they can and those new lands be designated to Israel.

    Otherwise, what is the point. History appears to be on the side of Israel since 1947.

    Oh…as to Matthews…..he is an idiot sent by idiots.

    • Good post D13. It’s a very complex issue. You kept it as simple as possible and I agree with your conclusion

      • Just some research, Anita. All I did was cut and paste the facts since 1947….which is the problem. The recognition of Israel is the whole problem. The sad part….if Israel did completely give in and go back to prewar 1967 borders, it will not make any difference. That is the sad part.

        I would pull all the Arab nations, including Iran, to the table and say here it is. Israel formally recognizes the Palestinian right to autonomy. We will pull back to prewar 1967 borders and want peace. In return, we (Israel) demand that the Arab nations recognize the right of Israel to exist in accordance with the UN resolutions and the establishment of State.

        However, We also want it understood that anymore firing of rockets, infiltrations, etc, by and terrorist group or organization is a declaration of war. If not stopped by Palestine, then the treaty is absolved and we reserve the right to attack and control.

        • It won’t work. I don’t know what else has been said here today – I’ve been too busy to really follow along – but you’re operating on a flawed premise.

          You presuppose that the leaders of both Israel and the Palestinians want peace. This is incorrect.

          Their people may want peace, but their leaders do not.

          Once again: The leaders want war.

          Why? Because war gives them an external enemy. “Why do our lives suck so much? It’s Israel’s fault!” and “Why do our lives suck so much? It’s the Palestinian’s fault!”

          Because otherwise, the answer to those questions would be different. “Why do our lives suck so much? Because our leaders oppress us!” Oops. Better to have them permanently engaged in war with an intractable and mutually victimized enemy.

          Right now you’re thinking: me thinks the Dread Pirate Mathius has been hitting the Dr. Pepper too hard. But allow me to ask you this: why was Oceania permanently at war with Eurasia or Eastasia in 1984? Was it really about control of resources?

          • Orwellian, eh? Me thinks the Dread Pirate Mathius missed the Dp and went straight to warm Red Bull…

            however, I know that it will not work…that was not my premise. I was just setting Utopia…

            Like that of Iran…it matters not what the West does. In the Mid East, it matters not what Israel does…

            The only thing that matters is my clandestine breeding of raptors for the eventual takeover. There is room for dread Pirates, tho.

            • Forgot to add…..with stocks of DP and RB…

              • Only bleeding heart liberals drink Red Bull.

                I drink Dr. Pepper.

                I just wish it didn’t taste so aweful… and how I do miss Red Bull… but no! Must.. not.. give.. in..

        • D13: Do you think all sides will ever come to a consensus and honor it forever or is that wishful thinking?

          • Sure they will. But all of us will be long dead.

          • Hmmmm….interesting question. The problem is that this will never be a “one world” and should not be, however, no, we will not see it. It has not happened in 5,000 years.

        • D13,

          Your solution would be a war crime.

          No nation can expand its territory claims by an act of war.

          Back to 1948 borders – maybe acceptable.

          • Won’t work. Reasons stated above.

          • Oh, I understand that, my friend. But…who would enforce it? The UN will not enforce it…the world will not enforce it…they are not now. But…that is my solution…and it is a moot point…there will never be acceptance of Israel under any terms anyway. I firmly believe that.

            • OK.. so what’s a real solution then? I have one.

              Wait for it.

              Wait for it..

              Wait for it…

              Ready? Build roads. Lots of roads. And highways. And pave them.

              Build them all over the middle east – ignore borders. Defend construction workers with force, but do not go on any offense.

              Watch commerce appear out of nowhere. Repeat after me: free trade stops wars.* Nobody goes to war against their economic interests. Period.

              Then: set up schools. Make sure they are easily accessible from a variety of ways. Admit all children of any nationality. (For security reasons, only students and teacher allowed on premise, screenings required to enter). Second languages will be required courses (Jews must learn Arabic, everyone else learns Hebrew or English – they may opt to learn others as well).

              Children who grow up knowing members of other cultures will not demonize those cultures. Eventually, they will become the new adults and the cycle of mutual hate will break.

              Dread Pirate Mathius adds: don’t forget to pay for this whole thing with private charity donations.

              *Chant that: free trade stops wars free trade stops wars free trade stops wars free trade stops wars – there now, doesn’t that feel good?

              • LOLOLOL……………the chanting made me thirsty…but DP always makes me feel good….

                Ahhhh…the indoctrination of DPM…..hearts and minds….hmmm.

              • You are eating a lot of chocolate with your DP today, aren’t you?

              • I am not advocating for any indoctrination. But giving children an education that consists of more useful information than being able to able to recite the Koran is a good first step.

                Doing so in a way that exposes them to different (enemy) cultures gives them a chance to see them as humans.

                Giving them the ability to communicate across the language barrier does wonders for commerce.

                And again: free trade stops wars

                Adding: I am a choco-holic. What of it? Huh? Huh?

              • Understood your position.

                deadly combination…one I often embark upon….LARGE DP…Lots o’ chocolate….salty potato chips and more chocolate….topped off by a large DP.

          • @ BF…question for you….since you may already know….why are the Palestinians treated as step children by their own? Why can’t they get any backing for a state except from Iran? Please…save me research time. 🙂

            • I am thinking mainly very old traditional stuff going back thousands of years…ethic tribal stuff, perhaps.

            • D13,

              Who are the Palestinians “own”?

              They are as different from everyone else there as English man is from a Spaniard.

              They are not Persians, nor Lebanese, nor Moroccan. They are Palestinian.

              • Silly me….I just assumed that since they were of Arabic blood there would be a backing of sorts for them to have their own independent state. Why would I expect them to not act….well….tribal.

              • D13,

                Do you apply that same philosophy on yourself?

                Of course not – you want to close the borders!

                So why do you believe it is valid to apply it to others?

              • Of course I do not apply the same philosophy…and will not. I do not believe that this world is equal. It is not and will not be..that is the reality. I was just wondering that if the Palestinians are so suppressed…why? It does not make sense unless there is a compelling reason. Why are they not accepted in Jordan or Syria or Egypt? There has to be a reason.

                Why will not the “world” or the UN recognize their rights? There has to be a reason.

              • D13,

                Why don’t you accept Mexicans coming into the USA?

                The UN DOES recognize the Palestinians – why do you dispute the facts?

                But what FORCE does the UN have to enforce on Israel as long the USA prevents it?

              • BF…as I have stated many times before and now…I do not care if they are here LEGALLY according to our laws. Whether or not you like our laws is immaterial…we have them. Obey them. I have the same disdain for any immigrant that is here illegally….however, the violence on the Texas border is not only related to the Drug and gun trade but to illegals taking liberties and Mexico emptying its prisons on the borders as well.

                I work this area very consistently and see this everyday…you do not. Your sources are less informed than those of us that see the realities of it…I can tell that by your posts. I suggest you come down here and see first hand the plight of private ownership… the cut fences, the stolen cars, the robberies and killings, the kidnappings, the killing of cattle and the burning of line shacks (all attributable in the most part to illegals) and the destruction from the illegals as well as the criminal element.

                I recommend that you do not pay attention to the washed and sanitized news reports that do not PURPOSELY report the correct news. You have my email, sir…contact me and I will escort you along the border and you can make up your own mind.

                ( I apologize, USW, I sometimes get pretty riled when people do not want to see the realities and want to criticize without knowing the facts or get sanitized facts over this friggin’ internet. I can sympathize with the plight of people wanting to work and coming to the US….but do so legally…no matter how long it takes. The procedures are quite easily followed in Texas. We have a Mexican family that works our ranch…it took them three days to secure a green card at the border, with a sponsor. It takes 30 days without a sponsor. But this no border crap is not reality…the violence is here and it IS NOT US CAUSED. Just pisses me off…sorry, sir. I will refrain from future outbursts and just consider the sources.

              • You’re doin a fine job D13 and I can sleep at night with humble appreciation that you have my back. Thank you

              • v. Holland says:

                Please don’t refrain from future outburst-I find your posts very thought provoking and wish you would do so more often.

            • v. Holland says:
    • 0. Irgun – forerunner of the IDF – attacked and killed British negotiator, and American envoies (Kind David Hotel bombing) as well as a reign of terror upon Palestinian and Arab settlements in a direct effort to derail negotiations of a Jewish state.

      1. Accept this fact: In September 1947, …..

      1A. The UN plan was unacceptable to both Jewish and Palestinians.

      2. Accept as fact: On May 14, 1948, ….

      The Soviets are the only one to recognize de jure in May, 1948

      The US only gave “De Facto” recognition – that is, “in practice or actuality, but without being officially established”.

      In the aftermath of the 1948 war, and conditional on Israel’s acceptance and implementation of resolutions 181 (The resolution recommended the division of the British Mandate of Palestine into two provisional states, one Jewish and one Arab, with a separate status for the Jerusalem-Bethlehem area (which would be under special international protection, belonging to neither of the two states), and an accompanying framework for overall economic union. ) and 194 (* Article 7: protection and free access to the Holy Places
      * Article 8: demilitarization and UN control over Jerusalem
      * Article 9: free access to Jerusalem
      * Article 11: calls for the return of refugees)
      , the UN General Assembly voted, with the May 11, 1949 Resolution 273 (III), to admit Israel to UN membership as a “peace-loving country”. This resolution reiterated the demands for UN control over Jerusalem and for the return of Palestinian refugees.

      It was not until January 1949 that the US recognized Israel as De Jure. (In law and practice).

      3. Accept as fact: Arab League members Egypt, TransJordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq declared war and announced their rejection of the UN partition decision. …

      Irgun attacks -1937-1948
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

      The invading Egyptian and Iraqi armies were poorly trained and equipped…

      From May to July the IDF grew from 26,000 to over 60,000, and by 1949 numbered 250,000. The combined Arab armies never exceeded 50,000 (1949).

      There was no organized Arab military force inside Palestine – the most significant force was the Jordanian – but only 8,000 strong at the beginning of the conflict.

      Czechoslovakia violated the resolution supplying the Jewish state with critical military hardware to match the heavy equipment and planes available to the invading Arab states (who were supplied by Britain).

      Bold faced lie. The British did not supply the Arab states.

      The IDF had been armed by a purchase of Czech weapons paid for by American Jews.

      5. Accept this one major fact:Arab refugees that left Palestine were settled in refugee camps and denied full citizenship and rights by the Arab countries that hosted them.

      The UN Resolution 181 and 194 – both required Israel to accept the rights of returning refuges as a condition of nationhood. Israel has to this day not fulfilled this basic condition.

      No more than the USA should accept Palestinians as citizens, neither is required on any other country except Israel.

      7. Accept the fact: On May 17, 1967, ….

      Nearly 20 years of fruitless talk and US blocking of resolutions in the UN left the Arab league few choices.

      The Suez Crisis of 1956 represented a military defeat but a political victory for Egypt.

      In a victory speech delivered to the Knesset, David Ben-Gurion said that the 1949 armistice agreement with Egypt was dead and buried, and that the armistice lines were no longer valid and could not be restored

      Of course, D13 fails to remember that on the morning of November 13, 1965 the Israel Defense Force mobilized, crossed the border into the West Bank and attacked Es Samu.

      The attacking force consisted of 3,000-4,000 soldiers backed by tanks and aircraft. They were divided into a reserve force, which remained on the Israeli side of the border, and two raiding parties, which crossed into the West Bank.

      Two days later, in a memo to U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson, his Special Assistant Walt Rostow wrote: “retaliation is not the point in this case. This 3000-man raid with tanks and planes was out of all proportion to the provocation and was aimed at the wrong target,” and went on to describe the damage done to US and Israeli interests: “They’ve wrecked a good system of tacit cooperation between Hussein and the Israelis.

      Seems like Israel was, has and continues to undermine.

      8. Accept as fact: On June 4, 1967, the Israeli air force launched pre-emptive attacks …

      Israel purposely attack the USS Liberty in a false flag as an attempt to provoke the US into war on Israel’s side.

      34 American sailors died and a 100+ wounded.

      The Commander won a Medal of Honor – which was not awarded to him at the White House. but this time it was awarded at the Washington Navy Yard by the Secretary of the Navy in an unpublicized ceremony, breaking with established tradition.

      Since 1942, the medal has been only awarded for actions on the face of the enemy, which is telling

      But in this case the attacker (Israel) was an ally at the time and it was ruled a “friendly fire accident”.

      For the first time since the end of the British Mandate, Jews could visit the Old City of Jerusalem and pray at the Western Wall to which they had been denied access by the Jordanians (in contravention of the 1949 Armistice agreement).

      As Israel refused to abide by the terms – including return of refugees – Jordon retaliated by closing the West Bank

      The area controlled by the PLO became known by the international press and locals as “Fatahland” and contributed to the 1975-1990 Lebanese Civil War.

      What contributed to the war was the Israeli invasion and subsequent massacres of civilians in Lebanon by IDF forces and her allies.

      In 1973, 11 days before Yom Kippur,…

      By the finger of God, two Egyptian armies marching on a location called Chinese Farm, separated from contact for a period of 45 minutes and 5 miles, and incredibly bypasses a small Israeli mobilized brigade. Suddenly, the Israeli forces found themselves behind Egyptian lines, unopposed.

      They quickly engaged the essentially defenseless SAM sites of the Egyptians – and the powerful Israeli air force -which had been nearly decimated by the the SAMS – now had command of the sky.

      The rest is history.

      The agreement was opposed by Hamas and other Palestinian factions which launched suicide bomber attacks at Israel.

      Arafat – who is not Palestinian – had lost the confidence of the Palestinian people due to his extreme corruption. The PLO represented no one, except Arafat.

      15. In 2000, Israel unilaterally withdrew its remaining forces from the “security zone” in southern Lebanon.

      … after heavy losses and after war crimes upon the Lebanese and Palestinians.

      The Sheba’a Farms provide Hezbullah with a ruse to maintain warfare with Israel.

      Some ruse. It’s not Israeli territory.

      Arafat abandoned the talks without making a counter proposal.

      He had no bases to negotiate. What he was trying to do (shrug) – given his level of corruption, whatever the motives he had cannot be measured.

      Conclusion: This is pretty much where we stand today.

      Not quite.

      Israeli war crimes continue in Gaza and her latest assaults are eroding whatever support she had – such as Turkey. Should Israel lose Turkey, she is doomed.

      History shows that the UN has not recognized Palestine as a state.

      False!

      The Palestinians are fully recognized as a landless State in the UN.

      More than 100 countries recognized the state of Palestine, while other countries announced they welcomed this step without explicitly declaring recognition.

      The United Nations General Assembly officially acknowledged the 1988 proclamation and voted to change the name of the PLO General Assembly permanent observer to “Palestine”.

      The Palestinians have been thrown out of other Arab nations. Even their own Arab league does not recognize the Palestinians as a State.

      FALSE!-
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine#States_recognising_the_State_of_Palestine

      History has shown consistent negotiations brokered by the US, Russia, Egypt, and various other countries have not worked and every time that Israel gives concessions, it is never enough. So, here is my solution.

      Israel has not abided by the resolutions that were fundamental to its founding – it has been the subject of UN resolution and UN demands in excess of all other nations combined.

      As I’ve pointed out before – Israel must unilaterally move – as it is with Sadat.

      Obama and Biden have zero credibility in the world anymore. Israel flaunted it in their face. Why….because everyone wants Israel to give more concessions and cede territories rightly won in battle and there is no guarantee of peace.

      There is no right of conquest in battle. Such a claim is a war crime.

      I would make Jerusalem like the Vatican. A separate holy city to be governed by the UN.

      The Vatican is not ruled by the UN. The Holy See is independent State.

      Then I would have two caveats. I would demand immediate recognition of Israels right to exist along with Palestine and, I would recognize that one attack by Hamas or Iran or any other backed source originating out of any of the Arab Nations, that Israel has the right to respond with whatever force they deem necessary and retake any lands that they can and those new lands be designated to Israel.

      No one agree to that. Israel has been shown to be duplicitous and unwilling to abide by its own agreements.

      Otherwise, what is the point. History appears to be on the side of Israel since 1947.

      It will not survive to 2050 without a radical reverse of its policy.

      Oh…as to Matthews…..he is an idiot sent by idiots.

      • Before you start calling people liars, BF….start here. Here is my source.

        The invading Arab armies were initially successful but met far harder Jewish resistance than they expected, causing them to slow their advance. On May 29, 1948 the British initiated United Nations Security Council Resolution 50 and declared an arms embargo on the region. Czechoslovakia violated the resolution supplying the Jewish state with critical military hardware to match the heavy equipment and planes available to the invading Arab states (who were supplied by Britain).

        Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

        Just so you know….all my source came from this….I told you and everyone on here that I cut and pasted the highlights…..so be careful whom you call LIARS…unless your source is also in this category…..then….that makes you one too, eh?

        Of course, this is the source you use quite often.

        • D13,

          Your post inferred -to me at least – that the British were arming the Arabs during 1948 war.

          They were not.

          The Arab armies had British weapons PRIOR to 1948.

      • BF….every third grader knows that the Vatican is not ruled by the UN……I think most everyone on here got my gist….”LIKE” the Vatican….meaning that it is a holy city and it is protected by its own guards…geez louise…

        Jerusalem…can be like that of the Vatican…except that it is governed by the UN.

      • BF…..False!

        The Palestinians are fully recognized as a landless State in the UN.

        Again, sir, I think that everyone, including me, knows that the Palestinians are recognized as a people……you know what I meant….the UN does NOT recognize the Palestinians as a State…meaning….land with borders….and, no one takes up the plight and there is no recognized border or state of Palestine.

        I still ask the BIG question though…..why is it that way? And, please, do not blame the US for coercion of the UN in not letting them establish a Palestinian LAND….I will use that term. I, personally, do not believe that the Isreali’s give a rats ass if Palestine has a bordered country or not….just as long as no rockets come from there.

        But, by your own admission, there will be no peace…regardless….until Israel is wiped off or becomes non existent.

  17. Judy Sabatini says:

    From American Thinker:

    Biden Trip Reveals Ominous Side of Obama’s Treatment of Israel
    By Leo Rennert
    The most salient part of Vice President Biden’s speech in Tel Aviv came toward the end of his address — after he spoke about the “unbreakable bond” between the U.S. and Israel, after he assured his audience that the administration has an “ironclad commitment to Israel’s security,” and after he reassured skeptical Israelis that America “stands shoulder to shoulder” with the Jewish state.

    Once these nice pieties were out of the way, Biden got to the real, unbalanced U.S. position vis-à-vis Israel and the Palestinians — again “condemning” Israel for moving ahead with plans for more housing units in East Jerusalem, while showering fulsome praise on Palestinian President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad.

    Having lauded Abbas and Fayyad as “willing partners” for peace and competent leaders to bring about a genuine two-state solution, Biden added in the same paragraph this contrast with the Israeli government:

    But instead, two days ago, the Israeli government announced it would advance planning for new housing in East Jerusalem. Because that decision undermined the trust required for productive negotiations, I — and at the request of President Obama — condemned it immediately and unequivocally.

    Biden’s comments are doubly revealing.

    First, the vice president made clear that it was Obama who made the decision to “condemn” the Israeli government — one of the harshest criticisms ever leveled against Israeli leaders by an American president.

    Second, Biden — voicing Obama’s views — refrained from uttering anything approaching similar incendiary criticism of Abbas’s multiple anti-Israel and anti-peace provocations.

    The closest the vice president came to expressing any displeasure with Palestinian provocations was when he told his audience that “you’ve been frustrated by the unwillingness of some Palestinian leaders to curb incitement.” This remark didn’t even rise to a slap on the wrist, and it carefully omitted identification of who these Palestinian leaders might be. It’s not something that need worry Abbas in the slightest.

    Biden’s juxtaposition of slamming Israel hard and refraining from bringing up anything about Abbas’s multiple impediments to advancing the peace process makes a mockery of Obama-Biden pledges to hold all sides equally accountable when they get out of line.

    Repeating words spoken earlier in the week by U.S. envoy George Mitchell, Biden told his Tel Aviv audience: “The United States will continue to hold both sides accountable for any statements or any actions that inflame tensions or prejudice the outcome of these talks.”

    Oh, really?

    If Biden were true to his words, he would have denounced Abbas’s persistent glorification of suicide bombers; Abbas’s incitement campaign against Israel in Palestinian Authority media, schools and mosques; and Abbas’s retention of clauses in the PLO/Fatah charter that call for the total elimination of the Jewish state. He also might have “condemned” Fayyad for joining Abbas in legitimizing terrorist murderers. Doesn’t such conduct also “undermine trust required for productive negotiations”?

    But while firing away at Netanyahu, Biden kept his powder dry with Abbas and Fayyad.

    Why?

    The answer rests with Obama’s failure to make good on his promises to hold the Palestinian Authority, Arab leaders, and Israel equally accountable for their actions and statements. When the chips are down, only Israel’s government arouses Obama’s ire — never Arab leaders or Abbas.

    It’s this unbalanced pursuit of an elusive peace that has thrown Obama’s diplomacy off-track from the start. First, while overlooking Arab/Palestinian provocations, the president pursued a one-dimensional pressure campaign to get Netanyahu to impose an absolute freeze on housing construction in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That got him nowhere, except that Abbas was so delighted with Obama’s exclusive focus on Netanyahu that the Palestinian leader abandoned direct negotiations and decided that he could get more by using Obama as his negotiating proxy.

    Now, Biden and Obama have repeated the same diplomatic mistake. Faced with Israel’s ill-timed announcement of plans for more housing units in East Jerusalem, they immediately fired their heaviest verbal guns at the Israeli government — without pausing to consider that these housing units are not apt to be built for another several years and without thinking through that this unprecedented U.S. slap at Israel would again stoke Abbas’s disinterest in direct negotiations while making Israelis wonder why the U.S. picks on only them.

    Even the Israel-unfriendly New York Times opined on its editorial page that Obama’s diplomacy has been clumsy and counterproductive.

    In recent days, Syrian President Assad played host in Damascus at a chummy get-together with Iranian President Ahmadinejad and Hezbollah chieftain Narsrallah — without Obama sallying forth with fulsome denunciation of the Syrian leader and his guests. In fact, it was just the opposite: Obama is making new diplomatic overtures to Assad by sending a U.S. ambassador to Damascus. A few days later, Ahmadinejad was embraced by Afghan President Hamid Karzai in Kabul, who listened patiently as Ahmadinejad uncorked his vile tirades against Israel and the U.S. Again, no harsh condemnation of what happened in Kabul.

    Only Israel seems to get Obama’s dander up, as illustrated by Biden’s sharp comments this week. It’s not exactly something to inspire confidence or expectations of even-handed U.S. mediation down the road.

  18. Ok…someone tell me how to get the avatars….I want one now.

  19. Re: Native Indians.

    The US broke nearly every treaty and every agreement they had with the Indians, then used the anger the Indians as an excuse to slaughter them.

  20. SK Trynosky Sr. says:

    Guys, Guys, Guys,

    In the 20th Century boundaries were redrawn over and over again, Everywhere. The countries that surround Israel were a construct created by England and France at Versailles in 1919. It might be hard to prove that anyone has a right to them except Turkey, through the Ottoman Empire.Look at some of those crazy lines on a map, looks like the same guy who drew up Nevada, Kansas and Colorado. The Israel/ Palestine problem was created by the First world war. The second world war guaranteed the creation of the state of Israel. Let us all be very honest about it. NOBODY wanted the surviving European Jews after the holocaust. To think otherwise is to fool yourself and think too highly of the maturity of western civilization in 1945. NOBODY gave a crap about the Palestinians so they got to donate the real estate.

    Israel, I am afraid, will eventually wind up standing alone. The why of that bears study and has more to do with the maturation of a soft,flabby and frankly gutless West rather than anything else. The Greatest Generation handed us something in 1945 and we chose to piss it away. Funny, how perhaps the last great President of the United States was a mature man of that generation. I guess historically it comes down to the willingness to beat plowshares back into swords when necessary and that other old saw, those who seek peace had best be ready to prepare for war. We, I think, don’t got it anymore. The Caliphate will be interesting.

    Poland disappeared in the what, 17th century, it reappeared in the 20th. Then, for all intents and purposes disappeared and reappeared again. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia anyone? Shall we talk a bit about who really owns Alsace and Lorraine. How about East Prussia? Is it Danzig or Gdansk? Scottish independence anyone? How about the Basque region in Spain. Of course never ever let us forget how well the re-partition of Yugoslavia worked out. Speaking of that, aren’t the Serbs through the assassination of Franz Ferdinand really ultimately responsible for this whole mess anyhow? Should have nuked them when we had the chance.

    Panama? An independent country? Really?

    Israel in its present incarnation has been there more than 60 years now. When do the Israelis get the title insurance on the deed?

    Ahhh, the curse of having a double major, history and psychology.

    • SK:

      “The Greatest Generation handed us something in 1945 and we chose to piss it away.” I am curious as to what it is you are referring to that we chose to piss away.

      Israel will never get title to the land S.K.. And neither will anyone else, in my humble opinion.

      They will still be fighting over it 5000 years from now. Provided an asteroid doesn’t eliminate the problem first. Or the next Ice Age which will drive most of Europe into the mediteranean area and middle east. And I thought our invasion of Mexico would be ugly. Just imagine all those Russians, Slavs, Germans, etc migrating south in large numbers.

      • SK Trynosky Sr. says:

        Either Israel will maintain title or the place will wind up glowing in the dark. Now, the ice age thing, well that’s a strong maybe. Hopefully the science guys at East Anglia will realize they had it right in the mid seventies with global cooling.

        They gave us a world at peace in 1945 and an opportunity to use our power and might to keep it that way. Yes I know the idea of a Pax Americana is unpalatable for many. Much more can be said on that subject. My complaint is that by not using the power we had for good, we allowed others to develop, no steal it, and use it for evil.

        I am sure that this comment has the potential to set off a firestorm here. Just keep in mind that what I said was right for the time and place. It is no longer possible. The fellow travelers among the collectivists made it impossible. We chose to ignore them and based on what is currently happening in DC still refuse to see them for what they are.

        Had a president appointed anyone with even a vaguely Nazi past to a high position the impeachment papers would be delivered overnight. Yet avowed communists are even now being named to high posts within the administration. Why is the Communist body count always off the table and the Nazi one not?

        • SK

          I would like to pursue your premise a bit futher, rather than just dismiss it.

          There are obvious challenges to trying to project global power. It costs tons of money for one. But aside from that, do you have some examples of how you think we should have used our power for good but did not.

          Aside from Patton’s suggestion regarding Russia I can’t think of any use of our power that would have changed the situation.

          I completely agree with your Nazi vs. Communist complaint. Both ideologies have killed millions and yet we excuse the communist ideology as some grand intellectual experiment.

          A big good mornin to ya S.K.
          JAC

          • SK Trynosky Sr. says:

            As a high school guy (Catholic HS) I studied Latin for three years. This was the toughest thing I ever did in HS and was miserably failing in my early third year. To save my ass and those of six others in my predicament, Br. Cronan Maurice( Allah praise his name), allowed us the following. “you clowns have one prayer. I will grant you no higher than a D but if you spend the remainder of the year studying Roman and Greek history and literature and doing the research papers I ask you to do, then you will pass. You don’t have to study Latin or take the tests but I will give you a college level course on Roman life”.

            Well, he didn’t have to ask us twice. The alternative was failure and probably expulsion. I always liked history and my exposure to Roman History was eye opening. There were so many great things about Rome.

            The one great idea that I grasped was that Rome was into trade. They had this quaint notion that if people became mutually dependent, they would be less likely to want to kill each other. So, the Romans went about their business of cajoling, conquering and building Roads. they devised this system of allowing anyone to become a Roman Citizen (see St. Paul) with all the rights that that entailed. they charged a small administrative fee and left local government in place. They encouraged prosperity again realizing that well fed people are less likely to start revolutions.

            Of course, the Jews (and this is no knock on Jews) had to disagree. As we have read and seen, this jerkwater province refused to go along with the plan. They just kept revolting and revolting and revolting. Finally circa 70AD, the Romans had had enough. They opted for the Carthaginian solution. Vespasian flattened the place and displaced the entire population using the proceeds to build the Colosseum . The really interesting thing here is two thousand bloody years later, we are still dealing with the result of that campaign!

            Anyway, Rome was built on the Pax Romana. I don’t know if this was a conscious plan or not. It just worked for a very long time. Had Rome remained a Republic and not fallen into a dictatorship, who knows how long things might have gone on.

            So, I believe that because of the 16 million or so under arms in 1945 and more importantly the bomb and our willingness to use it, we had an opportunity to achieve a Pax Americana. Now, I will be honest with you, My Dad and his brothers and my other uncles would not have been particularly crazy about the idea of being modern day legionaries post 1945 but it is an idea.

            If there was to be a true world government set up under the aegis of the US in 1945, it would have had to operate like Rome. All everybody else has to know is who is boss and what happens if you rock the boat. Every other country has the right to govern themselves any way they want. If they want to be like the Nazi’s and kill the Jews or the Gypsies, fine. Stupid but fine. However, cross an international border with that idea, and you become nuclear cinders. Free trade for everybody and a small universal tax to pay for governance. Everybody, everywhere has the right of citizenship in this federation if they want it.

            Now, how long would this last? That is the rub. Obviously Americans like Romans would become fat,dumb and lazy. Come to think of it they have anyway. How long before the republic fell, how long before the dictator rose? How long before they screwed up the entire thing? I have no doubt they would have. Would this in turn have led to a new dark age? All, I propose, are great questions. Have to leave those discussion to L. Sprague deCamp and Robt. Heinlein.

            • SK Trynosky Sr:

              We had built a very large military force by 1945. The USA was a powerful nation but so was the USSR. In April 1945, I don’t think we had the military strength to defeat the Soviet Union. I believe the USSR had far more tanks and better tanks than the USA plus they had a very powerful air force. We didn’t have the A-Bomb until around July 1945 and used the first on August 6, 1945.

              My point is that I don’t think we had the military strength to go to war against the Soviet Union in April 1945. It would have been a blood bath for the USA and there was no will to continue fighting in Europe. We still had the japanese to contend with and many from the European theater were not wild about going to the Pacific.

              I don’t think any one country can control most of the world without restricting freedom and liberty.

              • SK Trynosky Sr. says:

                Birdman

                It is an exercise in alternate history based on some very real and possible things.

                During the 2nd WW, the Russian people fought for Mother Russia, not communism, not comrade Stalin. Had the Germans played their cards right, they might have been welcomed as liberators in Russia as they were in parts of the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. However, treating people as sub-human ultimately does not win you many friends.

                At the end of that war, when we developed the bomb, we could very possibly have dictated terms if we wanted to. That would have required that we be willing to back them up. Who knows what would have happened had Truman told Stalin to get the hell out of eastern Europe. The Soviets had every right, like we did, to occupy Germany and Austria, but the rest???

                Would the Russian people have fought for Stalin to control Eastern Europe? Again, it is only a guess, but I don’t think so. there would have been no immediate need in April 45 to go to war with the USSR. When it became obvious what Stalin’s intent was later on we could have issued an ultimatum.

                Part of what actually happened back then could be laid at the feet of American naivete. The other part, at the feet of people like Alger Hiss who disguised what the Soviet Union and Joe Stalin were all about.

                By inviting the Soviets into our war with the Japanese, we more or less guaranteed the Korean War, the rise of Red China and ultimately Viet Nam.

                I happen to agree with you that the likelihood that we could have run a Pax Americana indefinitely without restricting freedom and liberty was low. Eventually, like Rome, we would have succumbed to greed. Eventually we, like the Romans would have forgotten why we created what we created. But then again, maybe, just maybe, not.

                From a windy, wet bone chilling NJ.

                Best,

      • Raptors, JAC..you are forgetting my raptor breeding program.

  21. French bread spiked with LSD in CIA experiment

    n 1951, a quiet, picturesque village in southern France was suddenly and mysteriously struck down with mass insanity and hallucinations. At least five people died, dozens were interned in asylums and hundreds afflicted.

    For decades it was assumed that the local bread had been unwittingly poisoned with a psychedelic mould. Now, however, an American investigative journalist has uncovered evidence suggesting the CIA peppered local food with the hallucinogenic drug LSD as part of a mind control experiment at the height of the Cold War.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7415082/French-bread-spiked-with-LSD-in-CIA-experiment.html

    • Bottom Line says:

      The CIA wouldn’t do something like that BF. It’s not like they have been performing Psy-ops/mind-Kontrol experiments on unwitting subjects for 60+ years.

  22. Sovereign: Elvis Presley’s Ultra-Secure, 2008 Passport?

    Mark Nestmann (March 4, 2010)

    Elvis died in 1977.

    But that didn’t prevent hackers from inserting his digital photo into a U.K. passport, and using it at a self-service passport machine at Amsterdam’s Schiphol airport to gain clearance to board a plane.

    This incident occurred in September 2008.

    —-

    Gotta love the ‘ultra-high secure’ new passports.

  23. WASHINGTON — Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Friday delivered a stinging rebuke to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for his government’s announcement this week of new Jewish housing in east Jerusalem, calling it “a deeply negative signal” for the Mideast peace process and ties with the U.S.

    The State Department said Clinton spoke to Netanyahu by phone for 43 minutes to vent U.S. frustration with Tuesday’s announcement that cast a pall over a visit to Israel by Vice President Joe Biden and endangered indirect peace talks with the Palestinians that the Obama administration had announced just a day earlier.

    The length and unusually blunt tone of Clinton’s call underscored the administration’s concern about prospects for the negotiations it has been trying to organize for more than a year and its anger over Israel’s refusal to heed U.S. appeals not to make provocative gestures.

    Clinton called “to make clear that the United States considered the announcement to be a deeply negative signal about Israel’s approach to the bilateral relationship and counter to the spirit of the vice president’s trip,” State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters.

    “The secretary said she could not understand how this happened, particularly in light of the United States’ strong commitment to Israel’s security and she made clear that the Israeli government needed to demonstrate not just through words but through specific actions that they are committed to this relationship and to the peace process,” he said.

    The harsh criticism of America’s closest Mideast ally and questions about its commitment to the U.S.-Israeli relationship followed equally blunt condemnation of the housing announcement from the White House and Biden himself.

    It also comes ahead of a trip to the region by U.S. Mideast peace envoy George Mitchell and a meeting in Moscow next week of the Quartet of Mideast peacemakers that Clinton will attend.

    Hours after the call to Netanyahu, the Quartet – the U.S., European Union, United Nations and Russia – denounced the Israeli announcement in a statement from the world body’s headquarters in New York where Clinton was addressing a commission on the status of women and meeting with U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon.

    “The Quartet has agreed to closely monitor developments in Jerusalem and to keep under consideration additional steps that may be required to address the situation on the ground,” the statement said.

  24. For G-Man and Birthers. Interesting, yes?

    http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/15127

    The Final Questions
    Why did the DNC certify Obama’s eligibility only in Hawaii?
    Why did no state DNC office, DNC elector, or Election Commission office catch it?
    Since the DNC made no such certification, on what basis do we assume Obama to be eligible?
    Without any such certification, isn’t it more important than ever to see the actual birth certificate and ask the courts to make an official ruling on the definition of “natural born citizen?”
    Why did the DNC use TWO different docs, one incomplete, when the RNC used the same complete doc nationwide?
    On what basis will the media continue to claim that Obama is eligible?
    Why did Nancy Pelosi show signs of stress in her Hawaii certification of Obama?
    When will every American demand answers to these and many more questions?

    • Cyndi P:

      I read the article and it is interesting. I don’t know if we will ever know the truth of the matter. It’s a fait accompli at this point in time. Obama is in office and will only leave when his term expires.

      • I think there are people who do know the truth, and others that suspect it, but you’re right. He’s in office and he isn’t going anywhere. I suspect he’ll pull a Hugo Chavez type of stunt. He and his supporters have spent too much time, money and energy, to just walk away because the voters want them to. Obama is hammering the last nails into the coffin of our republic and there isn’t a damn thing that anyone will do to stop him.

      • I agree! Besides, Biden and Pelosi are next in line, so maybe this birther thing needs to just go away! 🙂

        G!

  25. D13

    Whether or not you like our laws is immaterial…we have them. Obey them.

    I follow my own council on what law is good or not. I will not obey evil law. Most law by government is evil law. I don’t obey any of them (which means I don’t necessarily break them either – I just do my own thing regardless of the law).

    I believe you will obey evil law, thus evil will be done by your hands.

    But I’m never in that group, D13

    I have the same disdain for any immigrant that is here illegally

    I noticed.

    You are angry at a man who does you no harm.

    You can guess what I think about situation.

    ….however, the violence on the Texas border is not only related to the Drug and gun trade but to illegals taking liberties and Mexico emptying its prisons on the borders as well.

    Mexico is the big bad guy…. riiiggghhhhtt.

    I work this area very consistently and see this everyday…you do not.

    A man whose nose is stuck in manure believes the world smells like manure.

    For years after he retired, when Pop met someone new, the first thought that raced through is head was “What have you done wrong?”.

    30 years dealing with the 1% skewed him to think that 99% of the people were crooks. He’s better now – but it took quite awhile.

    Your sources are less informed than those of us that see the realities of it…I can tell that by your posts. I suggest you come down here and see first hand the plight of private ownership… the cut fences, the stolen cars, the robberies and killings, the kidnappings, the killing of cattle and the burning of line shacks (all attributable in the most part to illegals) and the destruction from the illegals as well as the criminal element.

    As I pointed out, the higher the stakes, the more you’ll get desperation and violence.

    By design, the meek, the non-violent have been scared away by your big gun and big attitude.

    Guess what? All that’s left is the really bad guys. The risk offers huge reward in money and they are willing to kill for all that money.

    If you didn’t have the big gun, neither would they because there would be no risk and therefore no money – its called “escalation” and it works both ways.

    I will escort you along the border and you can make up your own mind.

    I’ll take you up on that one day.

    • BF

      With all due respect my pirate friend; “A man whose nose is stuck in manure believes the world smells like manure.”

      A man whose nose is stuck in manure knows what the hell manure looks like, unlike the man who has his nose stuck in the clouds.

      • JAC

        That maybe true – but when said man stands up, he still has manure in nostrils and it colors (cross metaphor) his world in a disagreeable way.

        At least the nose in the clouds can smell the difference and isn’t stuck on one smell.

        • Bottom Line says:

          ” stuck on one smell. ” …could also mean stuck in denial.

        • BF

          I think you have misinterpreted D13’s question.

          He was asking why the neighbors who supposedly hate Israel over the Palestinian issue don’t show more direct support or love for the Palestinians themselves.

          I also think he misunderstood your answer regarding Mexico. Perhaps he took it literally while you were using it as an example of nationalism and tribalism.

          I think you two are talking past each other on an innocent question.

          I also think you are far to quick to lay the entire issue at Israel’s feet. The Jews lived in peace with the Muslim at one time. Both sides became more beligerant towards each other after WWI. So while the UN creation is a catalyst it is not the root cause ALL BY ITSELF.

          Given the Colonel has reached the conclusion that we need to extract ourselves from this mess in the middle east I don’t understand why you keep on the harsh responses over minor differences or unimportant details, like where the Arab guns came from or who paid for them. He is not using the information to justify US involvment nor to rationalize good boy status for Israel. He is saying this shit has been going on since day one and it isn’t going to stop until one side or the other disappears, given the current political leadership in the region.

          You seem hell bent on placing all blame on Israel. They have dirt all over their hands but they are not alone when it comes to wallowing in the manure.

  26. Judy Sabatini says:

    The Lost Art of Honor

    By Rev. Bill Shuler

    To merely recognize the need for honor is to fall short. To restore our country to health, we Americans must return to it as a way of life.

    Honor is a lost art in America. It is too often denied and delayed. The concept of honor has once again been brought to the forefront as the motion picture academy struggles to explain why Farrah Fawcett was omitted from their Oscar’s tribute to members of the industry who had died in 2009. It is revived again as a committee in Texas decides who will merit placement in the telling of American history in textbooks to be distributed nationwide. It was on display this week as over 1,000 female Air Force service pilots finally received recognition when they were awarded the Congressional Gold Medal that they so richly deserved.

    To honor is to express respect. It is a recognition of the value of another. As a culture we reserve such expressions for moments marked by finality. We are comfortable sharing our feelings of love and appreciation at retirement ceremonies and funeral services. The word honor is often never heard because it comes too late, resulting in the greatest of all regrets unexpressed love.

    Dishonor is prevalent on the national scene. Our public leaders are fodder for late night comedians. Parents are blamed for all our woes. The elderly are under-valued and neglected. The scriptures tell us to honor all people, to love one another, to fear God and honor those in authority. It is a prescription for a healthy society. It does not mean that we will agree or that others have earned honor but it eliminates the hate based, disrespectful dialogue that is so prevalent today.

    To merely recognize the need for honor is to fall short. It is a way of life. Its target is as near as a family figure, a mentor or a friend. Honor disarms, heals and strengthens. It calls forth the best in all of us.

  27. Judy Sabatini says:

    Former Astronauts Criticize Decision to Stop Moon Missions

    AP

    Jim Lovell, who led the Apollo 13 mission in 1970, told the BBC the cancellation could be disastrous.

    LONDON — Two former astronauts have said they are disappointed with the U.S. government’s decision to cancel NASA’s moon landing program.

    Jim Lovell, who led the Apollo 13 mission in 1970, told the BBC the cancellation could be disastrous.

    “Personally, I think it will have catastrophic consequences in our ability to explore space and the spin-offs we get from space technology,” Lovell said. “They haven’t thought through the consequences.”

    Eugene Cernan, part of the 1972 Apollo 17 mission, said the U.S. has a responsibility to lead the world in space exploration and technology and that he hopes people will be back on the moon “sooner than later.”

    “I’m quite disappointed that I’m still the last man on the moon. I thought we’d have gone back long before now,” Cernan said. “But I am absolutely committed to the fact that we will go back at some time.”

    Cernan and Lovell spoke to the BBC on Friday in London at an event at the Royal Society.

    The decision to cancel NASA’s $100 billion Constellation program was announced last month. Much of the money is earmarked for rocket research.

  28. Judy Sabatini says:

    Clinton rebukes Israel over East Jerusalem plans, cites damage to bilateral ties

    By Glenn Kessler
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Saturday, March 13, 2010; A01

    Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton rebuked Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Friday about the state of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, demanding that Israel take immediate steps to show it is interested in renewing efforts to achieve a Middle East peace agreement.

    State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley described the nearly 45-minute phone conversation in unusually undiplomatic terms, signaling that the close allies are facing their deepest crisis in two decades after the embarrassment suffered by Vice President Biden this week when Israel announced during his visit that it plans to build 1,600 housing units in a disputed area of Jerusalem.

    Clinton called Netanyahu “to make clear the United States considered the announcement a deeply negative signal about Israel’s approach to the bilateral relationship and counter to the spirit of the vice president’s trip,” Crowley said. Clinton, he said, emphasized that “this action had undermined trust and confidence in the peace process and in America’s interests.”

    From the start of his tenure, President Obama identified a Middle East peace deal as critical to U.S. national security, but his efforts have been hampered by the administration’s missteps and the deep mistrust between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Last fall, he softened his demand for a full freeze on settlement construction, accepting a limited 10-month moratorium that did not include the East Jerusalem area where the construction announced this week is to take place. Clinton at the time hailed the Israeli plan as “unprecedented.”

    Special envoy George J. Mitchell has struggled to relaunch peace talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Last week, he got the two sides to agree to indirect talks, with Mitchell shuttling between them, but the Israeli announcement has imperiled that development. Rising Palestinian anger led Israeli forces on Friday to seal off the West Bank and post riot squads around Jerusalem’s Old City and Arab neighborhoods.

    U.S. officials were especially furious about the announcement because they thought they had reached a private understanding with Netanyahu that even though East Jerusalem was not officially included in the moratorium, he would prevent any provocative actions there. Its release during Biden’s trip, intended as a fence-mending mission, was seen as another slap.

    “The announcement of the settlements on the very day that the vice president was there was insulting,” Clinton told CNN on Friday.

    Obama had approved Clinton’s call, sitting down with her during their weekly meeting Thursday to determine the language she would use. “The secretary and the president worked through together the specific points she would be making to Prime Minister Netanyahu,” deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said. Biden also called Netanyahu on Friday to reinforce the message, officials said, and Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren was summoned to a meeting with Deputy Secretary of State James B. Steinberg.

    Some analysts applauded the administration’s tough stance, saying it may jar the right-leaning Israeli government into making gestures to the Palestinians. But others said Clinton’s call risked emboldening Arab and Palestinian officials to make new demands before talks start, if only so as not to seem softer than the Americans.

    In her call, Clinton appeared to link U.S. military support for Israel to the construction in East Jerusalem, which Palestinians view as the site for their future capital. “The secretary said she could not understand how this happened, particularly in light of the United States’ strong commitment to Israel’s security,” Crowley said. “She made clear that the Israeli government needed to demonstrate, not just through words but through specific actions, that they are committed to this relationship and to the peace process.”

    U.S. officials said Clinton made specific requests of Netanyahu to get the peace process back on track and to repair the damage to the relationship. They declined to identify the steps she demanded or to spell out possible consequences. Officials noted the length of the call — such diplomatic conversations usually last about 10 minutes — and said Clinton did most of the talking.

    “We think the burden is on the Israelis to do something that could restore confidence in the process and to restore confidence in the relationship with the United States,” said a senior U.S. official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment publicly.

    Clinton’s blunt message to Netanyahu came three days after Biden condemned the plans while in Israel. Netanyahu has apologized for the timing of the announcement — he said he did not know it was coming — but has not taken steps to reverse the action. U.S. officials said they found his response inadequate, which in part prompted Clinton’s call.

    Crowley’s statement was issued after the Sabbath started in Israel, and there was no immediate comment from the government there.

    Relations with Israel have been strained almost since the start of the Obama administration. Now they have plunged to their lowest ebb since the administration of George H.W. Bush.

    Then, as now, the two countries quarreled over Israeli settlement expansion in the occupied Palestinian territories. In 1990, then-Secretary of State James A. Baker III publicly gave out the phone number of the White House switchboard and told the Israelis, “When you’re serious about peace, call us.”

    The future of Jerusalem is a major point of dispute in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with both sides claiming it as their capital. Israel captured East Jerusalem during the 1967 war and subsequently annexed and populated it in a move not recognized by the international community.

    Netanyahu’s fragile coalition government includes members who oppose giving up any part of the city. The housing units announced this week would be added to an ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighborhood called Ramat Shlomo, making it politically difficult for the prime minister to roll back the action.

    The “quartet” of Middle East peace mediators — the United States, the European Union, the United Nations and Russia — on Friday condemned the construction announcement and said it would “take full stock of the situation” at a previously scheduled meeting in Moscow next week.

  29. Judy Sabatini says:

    China calls U.S. a hypocrite over human rights
    Reuters

    BEIJING (Reuters) – China accused Washington of hypocrisy on Friday for its criticism of Beijing’s restrictions on the Internet and dissent, blaming the United States for the financial crisis and saying its own rights record was terrible.

    In its annual survey of human rights in 194 countries issued on Thursday, the U.S. State Department criticized China, along with Cuba, Myanmar, North Korea and Russia.

    China’s State Council Information Office, or cabinet spokesman’s office, issued its own annual assessment of the United States’ human rights record in response, and this year it dwelt on America’s economic woes.

    “The United States not only has a terrible domestic human rights record, it is also the main source of many human rights disasters worldwide,” the Chinese report said, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

    “Especially a time when the world is suffering serious human rights disasters caused by the global financial crisis sparked by the U.S. sub-prime crisis, the U.S. government has ignored its own grave human rights problems and reveled in accusing other countries.”

    Washington has long criticized of China on human rights, and the subject has added to recent tensions with Beijing, which has also pushed back over arms sales to Taiwan and President Barack Obama’s meeting with the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan leader.

    China has claimed sovereignty over Taiwan since their split in 1949 amid civil war, and reviles the Dalai Lama as a “separatist” for seeking self-rule for his Himalayan homeland.

    PELOSI TIBET REMARKS CONDEMNED

    China’s Foreign Ministry, in a separate statement, also condemned U.S. House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi for comments earlier this week honoring “the many brave Tibetans who have sacrificed their lives fighting for freedom.”

    “We advise the relevant U.S. congresswoman to respect the facts, abandon her prejudices and stop using the Tibet issue to interfere in China’s internal affairs,” spokesman Qin Gang said in a statement on the ministry’s website (http://www.fmprc.gov.cn).

    China’s Internet controls have also thrust Beijing into a dispute with search engine giant Google, which has said it may shut down its Chinese-language Google.cn portal and draw back from the Chinese market out of concerns over censorship and a hacking attack from within the country.

    China has intensified restrictions on the Internet, imposed tight control over people seen as threats to Communist Party rule, and increased repression of Uighurs after ethnic violence and riots in Xinjiang, the country’s restive far-western region, said the State Department report.

    China’s Communist Party authorities have shown little patience with Western criticisms of Beijing’s punishment of political dissidents and protesters.

    Late last year, U.S. officials decried the sentencing of prominent Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo to 11 years in jail on charges of “inciting subversion.”

    The latest Chinese counter-blast to U.S. criticisms said Washington should concentrate on “improving its own human rights.”

  30. v. Holland says:

    Found this entry in Wiki interesting-expected the conditions for the refugees would be worse, although this just mentions JORDAN -Did note that the number of people listed as refugees don’t actually live in these camps. Found this Qoute eye opening “The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) “to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland”.[38]” Sounds like the Arab League is more interested in using the refugees as pawns than to do what is best for the actual people involved. Need to read further to see what the other camps are like. Was confused by this statement “Lindsay suggests that eliminating services to refugees whose needs are subsidized by Jordan “would reduce the refugee list by 40%.” ” Does this mean 40% of all refugees or just 40% of the refugees in Jordan? Figure these yellow cards are more based on money than anything else but don’t know that I can blame Jordan for wanting the help.

    Jordan refugees

    There are as many as 3,043,877 Palestinian refugees in Jordan,(The near majority of the kingdoms population) of whom 350,000 are still living in refugee camps [29]. Jordan granted most of the Palestinian refugees the Jordanian citizenship in 1950. The percentage of Palestinian refugees living in refugee camps to those who settled outside the camps is the lowest of all UNRWA fields of operations. Palestinian refugees are allowed access to public services and healthcare, as a result, refugee camps are becoming more of poor city suburbs than refugee camps. Most refugees moved out of the camps to other parts of the country reducing the number of refugees in need of UNRWA services to only 338,000. This caused UNRWA to reduce the budget allocated to Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan. Former UNRWA chief-attorney James G. Lindsay says: “In Jordan, where over 2 million Palestinian refugees live, all but 167,000 have citizenship, and are fully eligible for government services including education and health care.” Lindsay suggests that eliminating services to refugees whose needs are subsidized by Jordan “would reduce the refugee list by 40%.” [30][31]

    Palestinians who moved from the West Bank (whether refugees or not) to Jordan, are issued yellow ID cards to distinguish them from the Palestinians of the “official 10 refugee camps” in Jordan. Since 1988, thousands of those yellow-ID card Palestinians had their Jordanian citizenship revoked in order to prevent the possibility that they might become permanent residents of the country. Jordan’s Interior Minister Nayef al-Kadi said

    “Our goal is to prevent Israel from emptying the Palestinian territories of their original inhabitants,” the minister explained, confirming that the kingdom had begun revoking the citizenship of Palestinians. “We should be thanked for taking this measure,” he said. “We are fulfilling our national duty because Israel wants to expel the Palestinians from their homeland.”[32]

    It is estimated that over 40 000 Palestinians have been affected in the preceding months.[33]

    Positions on the problem and right of return

    On 11 December 1948 the General Assembly discussed Bernadotte’s report and resolved: “that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbour should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date.[34]” This resolution has been annually re-affirmed by the UN since, but Israel says that the resolution is non-binding, does not mention a “right” anywhere, and argues that the “live in peace” condition has not been met and has prevented the return of any refugees.

    The Israeli declaration of independence appealed “to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship” [35]. Similarly the Jewish Agency had promised to the UN before the Declaration that Palestinians would become full citizens of the State of Israel[36]. The Israeli Knesset (parliament) does not consider the Declaration to have the power of law, and Israel does not in practice consider the refugees to be Israeli citizens. The 1947 Partition Plan determined citizenship based on residency, such that Arabs and Jews residing in Palestine but not in Jerusalem would obtain citizenship in the state in which they are resident. Professor of Law at Boston University Susan Akram, Omar Barghouti and Ilan Pappé have argued that Palestinian refugees from the envisioned Jewish State were entitled to normal Israeli citizenship based on laws of state succession[37].

    The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) “to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland”.[38]

    Palestinian refugees claim a right of return. Their claim is based on Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), which declares that “Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country.” Although all Arab League members at the time- Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen- voted against the resolution,[39] they also cite article 11 of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194, which “Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return […].”[40] However Resolution 194 is a nonbinding assembly resolution, and it is currently a matter of dispute whether the resolution referred only to refugees in 1948, or additionally to their descendants. The Palestinian National Authority supports this claim, and has been prepared to negotiate its implementation at the various peace talks. Both Fatah and Hamas hold a strong position for a right of return, with Fatah being prepared to give ground on the issue while Hamas is not.[41]

    Since 1970, several attempts have been made to meet the terms of both Israel and the Palestinian people. Most recently, the government of Israel, in collaboration with the United Nations, attempted to accommodate the refugee concern by facilitating the creation of an independent Palestinian state. This was negotiated during the Oslo Accords. However, events since then have halted the phasing process and made the likelihood of a future sovereign Palestinian state uncertain.[42][43]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

  31. Judy Sabatini says:

    What can I say other than SHE’S NUTS. Being a woman is pre-esisting my butt. Give me a break.

    Pelosi: Being a woman is a ‘pre-existing condition’
    Ethel C. Fenig
    The first woman to ever hold the title Speaker of the House is giving a bad name to her species– Speaker of the House. Promising to clean the House (get it?) with transparency, she has instead presided over an institution that is getting dustier and grimier daily. This not so ditzy, just scary, lady, who airily dismissed the actual contents of Obamacare by stating she’ll find out what’s in it after it’s passed has now–unwittingly–transparently displayed how little she understands insurance–and being a woman–by discussing it with another not so ditzy–also scary–woman, Rachael Maddow.

    Ladies–and gentlemen–Pelosi grandly informed Maddow,

    Right up until now, being a woman is a preexisting medical condition.

    And why is that?

    If you are a woman, if you are in child-bearing age and you have children, it‘s a preexisting condition. If you can‘t have children, it‘s a preexisting condition. If you have a C-section, it‘s a preexisting condition. If you are a victim of domestic abuse, it is a preexisting condition.

    Uhm Ms. House Speaker, from one woman to another, these conditions are not preexisting, they are acknowledgments that women, because of uhm, certain anatomical and mental differences have a higher rates of medical use. You and your husband have been blessed with five children but you were the one who actually birthed them requiring greater use of medical care than your husband. That’s the way it is. Preexisting I guess.

    Ms House Speaker, when these children became teen agers and you let them drive, did you notice that because of the preexisting condition of male hormones and age the cost of your sons’ auto insurance was much higher than that of your daughters’? Did you complain then about “preexisting conditions” or acknowledge that male adolescents unfortunately have a horrible auto safety record? Perhaps you even used the battering ram of insurance discounts for students with better grades to get your kids to study harder because statistically students with A’s and B’s tend to be better drivers. Or did you complain about discrimination against boys who didn’t do as well in school? Or did you complain about age discrimination as auto insurance rates generally decrease after 25? Aging is a preexisting condition also.

    Indeed, Ms House Speaker Pelosi, why can’t the American public purchase health insurance the same way I buy auto insurance and house liability insurance? It is not a benefit offered by any employer so I’m free to choose any insurance company I want across the country, not just within my state, whether I’m working or not, tailored with the benefits I want?

    Uh oh, I’m sorry I suggested it–soon this will be another item the benevolent government want to control with my tax dollars.

    hat tip: http://www.powerlineblog.com

  32. Judy Sabatini says:

    As Obama Fumbles Healthcare, Focus Shifts to Education Takeover
    Alvina Lopez
    While Obama’s principal election platform stressed his commitment to bipartisanship and budget balancing, his first year in office (and counting) has been eaten up by sharp divisions within Congress, among governors, and across the entire nation, mostly due to his radical health care reform proposals. Whether or not you attended a tea party, you may have noticed that Washington has grown even grouchier since President Obama entered office, which is why the President may be trying to push a warmer and fuzzier subject as his approval rating steadily drops.That subject is education.

    The higher education industry — like the health care industry — is at best in a tumultuous cycle of reinvention, and at worst at a breaking point, thanks to state budget crises, broken banks and rising tuition costs. But Obama is currently preoccupied with running the schools in which younger kids are enrolled. It’s his next greatest takeover: our elementary and middle schoolclassrooms.

    In a February, 22, 2010, article in the New York Times, Peter Baker and Sam Dillon reported on the President’s rejection of the No Child Left Behind Campaign in favor of a federal government-monitored system in which Obama dangles much-needed funding in front of governors as incentive to create better reading and math programs in their schools. Under George W. Bush’s No Child Left Behind, states had to create new programs to improve academics, but they were allowed to organize those curricula themselves.

    Obama wants to have a hand in what’s being taught in classrooms in every state. Governors are trying to collaborate on establishing a set of “common standards in math and reading,” report Baker and Dillon, that would collectively — and theoretically — raise performance among students around the nation. What’s at stake for schools now is a total of $14 billion, which so far seems to be reserved for poor students and disadvantaged districts, and for which states must compete to receive by proving rising performance rates among students.

    In fact, Obama seems wholly absorbed by the notion of competition, both by pitting states against each other and in engaging in a global race to the head of the class in reading and math, at least. In the previously cited New York Times article, Baker and Dillon note that

    “[Obama] said the depth of the competition was brought home to him during a visit to South Korea last year, when he was told of that country’s determination to educate its children to out-compete American children. “That’s what we’re up against,” Mr. Obama said. “That’s what’s at stake — nothing less than our primacy in the world. As I said at the State of the Union address, I do not accept a United States of America that’s second-place.”

    Just off the heels of the Vancouver Olympics, it would be tough to argue that any American would be content to stand in the second-place spot, but how much should the country really sacrifice to show off another medal?

    Obama argues that our country needs a strong foundation comprised of bright, motivated, American-blooded students to help build up our economy and make us more competitive globally. He’s right. But — barring a few social reforms that resulted in the generally approved federal government’s interference with state education, including Brown vs. Board of Education — since when is it okay for one person to dictate what’s right or wrong in all of our schools? If the federal government is allowed to influence the new lesson plans, textbooks, and state testing standards that our kids supposedly need to compete with South Korea, the evolution vs. intelligent design vs. creationism debate would be revived, prayer in schools would probably be banned outright, and teachers, parents, principals and of course, the students, would have to deal with a whole new mess of bureaucratic disorganization any time they wanted an amendment or an exception. Just look at what’s proposed for healthcare.

    In the article, President Obama is quoted as reassuring governors,

    “We’ve been tasked to not only see this country through difficult times, but to keep the dream of our founding alive for the next generation…That’s not something to shy away from. It’s something to live up to. And I intend to work closely with all of you — Democrats and Republicans — to do just that.”

    We need to be vigilant in order to ensure that our children aren’t being used as an excuse to dupe us — and our governors — into believing that another government takeover is the answer to a fledgling economy and a suffering education system. In a bona fide competition, both parties need to stand their ground.

  33. Judy Sabatini says:

    March 14, 2010
    Killing the best medical system in the world
    James Lewis
    I study biomedical science for a living. I’ve also sampled foreign medical care myself, in Italy, Mexico, Israel, the Netherlands and Sweden. And the United States, needless to say. I’ve never had better treatment anywhere in the world than here in the US, even as a college student, when I was completely broke. I’ve often seen inferior care in other countries, though I respect most of their doctors and medical professionals for their benevolent intentions.

    I’ve attended talks by medical doctors in various parts of the world, including lectures proving that Terri Schiavo (or people like her), were overdiagnosed as hopeless, when in fact they might have had a chance to live. It is now estimated that about 40 percent of people diagnosed with Persistent Vegetative State (PVS), like Terri Schiavo, are actually in a “Minimally Conscious State” (MCS). The drug ambien is now being tested to bring people out of coma. The evidence is still not conclusive, but there are promising case histories where it’s worked.

    In fact, some significant percentage of wrongly diagnosed PVS patients are fully conscious. They are just in a “locked-in state,” a paralytic state that is easily confused with coma.

    The Acute Care doctor I listened to in Belgium stated that he would still send his so-called PVS patients to die, because just he didn’t have the budget to keep them on his Acute Care Unit for more than two weeks. He was belligerent about it.

    Such are the joys of socialized medicine. The American system is by far the most compassionate one in the world. The reason for that is very clear: We spend more money on the people who need it the most. We also spend more of our Gross Domestic Product on medical care, period, which is a good thing, not some sort of evil, as the Left tries to spin it. If you had a choice between spending more medical care money on your children or parents, or on your own health, and if it could make a difference, would that be a bad thing? I hope not. I hope we continue to value life and health above socialist notions of “cost to the national kitty.”

    Conservatives live in hope. Liberals, like the Netherlands socialized medical system, are willing to give in to despair. Socialists over there are now campaigning to make “medically assisted suicide” a really convenient choice for elderly people. But we know that depression is very common in the elderly, and that severe depression can destroy one’s truthful perception of the world. Severely depressed people often decide to commit suicide when their lives are still filled with hope and love — when seen from the outside. They deserve real medical treatment, not a suicide pill with a smile. Killing is not compassionate.

    I had a friend who suddenly committed suicide, a wonderful person, a Vietnam Vet, a fine neuropsychologist, and a great scholar in his own right. He was divorced and lost his job. He did not get accepted by a monastic order he was hoping to join. He became isolated, moved out of state, jumped into a canal and died in early middle age. He did not deserve to die, and the world lost a wonderful, creative man, who contributed a great deal. He could have contributed decades of more important work; not to mention his inherent right to live. He could have helped people in need. He could have healed members of his own family. He could have just lived as a constructive scholar, teacher and therapist. He could have remarried and had children again. In the upshot he gave in to severe depression, misunderstood his own life and his own remarkable talents, and committed suicide.

    People like that will now be helped to kill themselves by the socialist medical “care” in the Netherlands. To save money.

    But worst of all, ObamaCare may well end up killing the greatest medical system in the world. Just to satisfy the power needs of our radical Left.

    Don’t let the power-mad Left kill the best medical system in the world.

  34. Judy Sabatini says:

    March 14, 2010
    Obama pollster: America will heart Obamacare once it’s passed
    Rick Moran
    Is it any wonder they’ve lost touch with reality in the White House? From an article by Walter Alarkon in The Hill:

    President Barack Obama’s pollster said the healthcare bill will win over public support once it becomes law despite polls showing Americans against the plan.

    The argument by Joel Benenson, Obama’s lead pollster, rests on a chunk of Americans who now oppose the bill supporting it after it’s passed. Benenson said that group — which is anywhere from a tenth to a third of Americans, according surveys by CNN and Ipsos — is skeptical of the bill because it doesn’t go far enough.
    “When it comes to health care and insurance, once reform passes, the tangible benefits Americans will realize will trump the fear-mongering rhetoric opponents are stoking today,” Benenson wrote in a Washington Post op-ed Saturday.

    Republicans and other opponents of the bill say it’s simpler than that. According to the Pollster.com average of all polls, 48 percent of the country oppose the healthcare bill and 44 percent support it.

    The poll numbers are being wielded as evidence by both sides as they make their final cases to members of Congress, who are scheduled to begin final votes on the package late next week.

    Benenson’s argument was a partial response to two other Democratic pollsters who warned of a big GOP victory if healthcare passes.

    Yeah sure. It could happen. No, really – pigs can fly too!

    That pollster is hanging his hat on some pretty tenuous assumptions. The idea that a third of Americans don’t think the bill went far enough is ludicrous – snort worthy. It may be a tenth although how many Dennis Kucinich’s are there in the country?

    Secondly, nobody believes the Democrats when they try to hype what this bill will do. No one thinks premiums will drop, care quality improve, or Medicare will be protected. And the pollster doesn’t even bother to get into the nearly 40% of Americans who are “strongly opposed” to the bill. Where he’s going to get a majority who approve of it when so many are absolutely dead set against it is a mystery.

    They are fantasizing in the White House if they believe this crap.

  35. JAC

    He was asking why the neighbors who supposedly hate Israel over the Palestinian issue don’t show more direct support or love for the Palestinians themselves.

    I guess going to war for them isn’t “direct support” in your book.

    Again, no more than you’d accept Brazilians moving into the USA, why do you demand Arab nations act differently then what you would do?

    I also think you are far to quick to lay the entire issue at Israel’s feet.

    No.

    As I’ve pointed out before the hegemonic power must act first – its failure to do so will eventually destroy it.

    Great empires have all fallen by failing to recognize fundamental influences and instead of adapting and working with in these influences, they have resisted them.

    As they were fundamental – they were doomed to fail and with that failure destroyed themselves.

    Imagine the world had the Church – instead of attacking Lutheranism, accepted the fundamental complaint and worked with Luther in managing the change of power.
    But instead, the Church lost almost all of its political power by the end of the 30 Years War.

    Same here.

    The Palestinians are not going away. Of the nations in the world that viewed Israel favorably has dropped 90% between 1970 and today. It is in the bottom 10 most reviled nations (Economist poll).

    It is now down to practically USA and Turkey and Turkey has had it with them. And so it seems has the US.

    They are the ones with all the military and economic power. It is up to them to act and no one else.

    The Jews lived in peace with the Muslim at one time. Both sides became more beligerant towards each other after WWI. So while the UN creation is a catalyst it is not the root cause ALL BY ITSELF.

    The root cause for all the Middle East issues has been Western Colonialism.

    And the Israel issue is directly due to that as well. It was Western Powers that forced Israel on to the locals there. As you pointed out, for hundreds of years, they lived side by side. There is your cause – colonialism.

    As it continues today.

    Given the Colonel has reached the conclusion that we need to extract ourselves from this mess in the middle east I don’t understand why you keep on the harsh responses over minor differences or unimportant details, like where the Arab guns came from or who paid for them.

    The deep misconceptions of the region is well highlighted here at SUFA – and if one considers that those here are among the more bright – God help the USA with the rest of the people out there.

    The media machine has pushed a one-side propaganda piece. A while back, for example, I posted the picture of Palestinian rocket launchers – home made out of tin cans – yet the dominate view of Americans is that these are on par with the Israeli rockets – which makes Stalin’s Organ look like – well, home made!.

    The lack of perspective is embarrassing, IMO.

    You seem hell bent on placing all blame on Israel.

    Blame? I don’t think I blame anyone. Blame is pointless.

    Responsible – yep. They are the hegemonic power. They are responsible for they have all the cards. It’s up to them and only them.

    If they believe their actions to date are “winning” – they are delusional. If they continue, they will have their Vietnam – but they have no place to run unlike the USA. They will be overrun like the South was overrun.

    They and the US better wake up. There getting near the end of the noose.

    • BF

      Get down off your high horse my friend.

      “I guess going to war for them isn’t “direct support” in your book.

      Again, no more than you’d accept Brazilians moving into the USA, why do you demand Arab nations act differently then what you would do?”

      Nobody was demanding anything, neither D13 nor I. D13 asked you a SIMPLE question.

      Why do YOU think there is not more support from their Arab brothers?

      You claim some expertise in the area. It was a personal question to you. Not a demand nor a suggestion.

      Couldn’t help but notice you laid all the blame on colonialism yet didn’t mention the radicalization of Islam as a tool to foment hate for Jews prior to WWII and after. Are you saying this handy work by a religeous zealot would not have occured without the British occupation?

      • JAC

        Nobody was demanding anything, neither D13 nor I. D13 asked you a SIMPLE question.

        And I gave him a direct answer.

        Why do YOU think there is not more support from their Arab brothers?

        They aren’t “brothers” no more than the Spaniards are your brother.

        2nd, it is an irrelevant question. Who cares what support or not? The situation is a people have been displaced and the occupying power is not fulfilling its international lawful duties.

        Don’t matter if it is in the Middle East or North Dakota and who is supporting who.

        Thirdly, I would think going to war, oil embargo’s, trade embargo’s and diplomatic freeze-outs is SUPPORT!

        Thine eyes are frozen shut.

        You claim some expertise in the area. It was a personal question to you. Not a demand nor a suggestion.

        It is the same expertise any person has witnessing a human tragedy.

        Couldn’t help but notice you laid all the blame on colonialism yet didn’t mention the radicalization of Islam as a tool to foment hate for Jews prior to WWII and after.

        Are you saying this handy work by a religeous zealot would not have occured without the British occupation?

        Measure it against 550 years under the Ottomans – and you have your answer.

  36. burger bunn says:

    every one wants to blame Israel when the palastineans are nothing but the philastines which by the way where slauderd in they own nation and were kicked out. (Jordan) so give it up you anti semetics

  37. Yes it is amazing how short peoples memories are that they actually believe that the Arabs are the palestinians. Arabs wanted nothing to do with the mongrel Palestinians(Jews) as late as the late 1950’s.

    In WWII Britian had a volunteer brigade known as the Palestininian brigade that was made up entirely of Jews. Also there was the Palestinian Symphony Orchestra which was a Jewish orchestra. Also the Palestinian Post of course was a Jewish newspaper into the late 50’s.
    Even famous Arab historian prof philip Hitti testified to an Anglo-American commitee of Inquiry in 1946 that Palestine is a term the Zionist invented and there is no such thing as Palestine in history.

    Of course 8 yrs later he became a member of the PLO which wasnt even formed in Palestine and his whole story changed and him and Ararat used the term for there created refugees that they started calling Palestinians in order to drive Israel into the sea and they would have all the land.

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