Why The Michigan Trip was Dumb, but not Wrong

I don’t have a new guest commentary ready to go (in fact I don’t think I have any at all to even get ready!). So I decided I would quickly put together an article that explored an article that caught my attention today. There seems to be a fair amount of hype going on around the story coming out that a Michigan elementary school teacher organized a class field trip that intentionally did not allow white children to attend. When I first heard the sound bytes, I was a little bit angry. After all, I do not approve of children, or anyone else, being discriminated against because of the color of their skin. However, after reading a bit more to the story, hearing the explanation from the principal in question, and reading the note that he sent out to parents, I have come to the conclusion that the decision to have this “black children only” field trip was incredibly stupid. But I do not feel that it was wrong. In fact, I would completely support this principal if he came to me with this idea, if only I lived in a less quirky and touchy society.

Unfortunately, I do not live in a less quirky and touchy society. I live in one which is filled with false claims of racism, political correctness run amok, and people who are interested more in their petty grievances than rational thought. Here is what the article had to say:

An elementary school principal in Michigan is under investigation for authorizing a field trip last week for 30 black students to meet with an African-American rocket scientist. Students who are not black were excluded from the outing — a possible violation of a state law that bans racial favoritism in public schools.

“The district is investigating the allegations of violation of the State of Michigan Proposal 2,” a spokeswoman for the Ann Arbor, Mich., school district told FoxNews.com. “There was no ill-intent or malice in the principal and teachers planning this field trip,” she added.

The principal, Mike Madison, who is black, said the trip was part of an effort to close the achievement gap between black and white students. But some parents whose children were not included say it clearly was illegal.

The controversy began last week when the 30 students, members of an African-American academic support group, were taken to hear the rocket scientist, Alec Gallimore, speak at the University of Michigan, where he is an aerospace engineering professor and propulsion lab director.

The goal of the trip, Madison said, was to close test score gaps and inspire the students to consider careers in the sciences.

Rocket Scientist Professor Alec Gallimore

But parents of students who were excluded protested, and the children who went on the trip were booed by their classmates when they returned to school.

Earlier this week, Madison tried to quash the controversy by sending a letter home to parents, in which he wrote:

“In hindsight, this field trip could have been approached and arranged in a better way.

“But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.

“It was not a wasted venture,” he continued, “for I know one day they might want to aspire to be the first astronaut or scientist standing on the Planet Mars….

“The intent of our field trip was not to segregate or exclude students, as has been reported, but rather to address the societal issues, roadblocks and challenges that our African-American children will face as they pursue a successful academic education here in our community.”

But Madison’s explanation only fueled the controversy, and parental complaints turned into allegations that the school had violated Proposal 2, a newly enacted Michigan law that bans racial preference in public schools.

“If it was directed, guided, organized by the school district, they cannot say they are doing a field trip today for blacks only, or for whites only, or for Hispanics only or for Asians only,” Leon Drolet, the former chairman of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, told the Detroit Free Press.

But district spokeswoman Liz Margolis said that bridging the gap in test scores between white and black students was a serious issue that legitimized the trip. Plus, she said, the field trip was paid for by a private donation.

“We don’t feel that it at all violates (Proposal 2), but frankly, as with any group of students, if we identify a group of students that need support, we would be addressing that,” Margolis told the Free Press.

“But we also have to have better education for our parents so they know why it’s being done,” she said.

A parent-teacher meeting to discuss the issue is scheduled for Thursday night.

Read at original source, Fox News: FOXNews.com – Michigan Elementary School Principal Investigated for Blacks-Only Class Trip

Now let’s look at this from the outside (as we obviously have to). Today’s society finds that this is a big enough deal to put it on the first page of Fox News. I understand the appeal. Usually it is a claim that black kids are being discriminated against. Here we have the reverse happening. And I get that in today’s society, there are many white folks who will grab on to this story and get all they can over it. With so very many claims of racism against whites these days, white people are ready to see some of the reverse thrown around. I get it. I really do.

And to an extent, the white parents have a point. Because had this been the reverse, it would be front page news on every liberal news site on the net. The principal probably would have been reprimanded, and there is a good chance he would be fired. It would be held up as proof positive that the system is stacked against minority kids, and that racism is alive and well in America. And I guess to be fair, it is actually kind of illegal for the white kids to be discriminated against in this fashion.

But let’s be real here. I think we can do that. I think the readers at SUFA appreciate that. This principal may have done something stupid, and possibly illegal. But he didn’t do anything wrong. I applaud him for his sentiment. I applaud what he was trying to accomplish. He saw an opportunity to offer a little inspiration to a segment of his student body that was not succeeding in math and science. He felt that the right thing to do, instead of simply hammering poor performing students with more homework or remedial classes, was to find a way to inspire them to want to succeed.

Let’s forget my sentiment against the public education system for a minute. Let’s operate in the reality as it exists today. Isn’t inspiring our children to want to perform better, to want to learn important things like math and science exactly what we HIRE a principal to do? Mike Madison was doing exactly what I would expect a person in charge of educating my child to do. I don’t want to see my child punished, or pushed into things. I want to see my child succeed, and I would prefer that he does so because he has been inspired to do so and sees the value in the education he is receiving. If I were a parent of one of the white children, I would not have questioned this principal’s positive action in helping 30 black children value math and science. What I would have questioned is what is he going to do in order to inspire my child in a similar way? If there is no answer for that, then we have a problem.

And this, my friends is what we have lost sight of in our ever-increasing world of political correctness and claims of discrimination. We have lost sight of the actual goals we are seeking. In doing so we have tied the hands of those who are charged with meeting those goals. Just think of all the things that a teacher is unable to do in today’s environment. I know protection of our children is paramount. But why would we ever allow it to get to a point where something as positive as a class trip to teach children that anything is possible regardless of the color of their skin, is portrayed as a negative and deserving of scorn from other parents? We get to that point when the goal is no longer successful education, but instead is some sense of “fairness” or “equal treatment”.

To expect fairness or equal treatment is a course we can, and now do, take. But it is not the most effective way to teach our children, because it makes education the secondary goal behind equal treatment. THAT is what is wrong with how our society has moved. This is precisely why I believe that public education does not belong in the hands of the federal government. Education should be personal, and local, where parents can be involved in curriculum and where the goal is actually education, not a battle for federal money, or a political battle over curriculum, or a standardized test that means nothing to a kid that will run the family farm.

There is a chance that Mike Madison is a racist. There is a chance that he cares only about furthering the education of black children and could care less about the white kids. But let’s assume that these things are NOT true, because we have zero evidence to suggest that they are true. And if that is the case, that he cares equally about all of his students, then shouldn’t we be applauding his efforts to find the most effective way to inspire our children, rather than investigating him for violation of some stupid law that focuses on the wrong goal? I say yes. I say the goal of education is to turn out an educated child. And I think that principals and teachers should be able to use whatever means they can in order to meet that goal. Political correctness be damned. When you find evidence of a truly discriminatory teacher or principal, get rid of them. But let them do what they have a passion for doing…. teaching and inspiring children.

One last thing that I will throw out there for folks to chew on. I have discussed here the consequences of a public education system that has lost sight of the primary goal. The primary goal should be the education of the children, but that is now secondary to “fair” and “equal”. Failure to have the correct end goal is the surest way to ensure that we fail.

So apply that concept to everything else that we discuss here at SUFA. Ask yourself this one question:

If your end goal is anything but freedom, what do you think the chances are that you will be free?

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Comments

  1. Curious question; Why would you say that this Principal was right? This was completely wrong!

    Dr. Martin Luther King would not have approved of this, so why would you?

    It is my not so humble opinion that we need to teach our children that people of all colors, shapes, sizes, etc. etc., can and do succeed in ALL walks of life. All of those children should have been taken on that trip.

    • Interesting story, that requires much more thought than my not so awake brain is willing to attempt 🙂

      So I’ll read along today as always!

      Peace my Friends!

      G!

    • G. A. Rowe…

      Surprise!

      We agree!

      • BF….don’t do this to me….everybody is agreeable today…I can’t handle this.

        🙂

    • USWeapon says:

      G.A.,

      Why would you say it is wrong? If the intent was to inspire young minds, then how can you say it was wrong? The tactic taken was stupid, especially in today’s society, but the intent was absolutely in line with what we expect educators to do.

      The trip was to a public speaking engagement, there were limited seats available, so all couldn’t attend. Hence, why I said the question white parents should be asking is “now what are you doing to have another avenue to inspire my kids?”

      You are jumping to a lot of conclusions about the principals motives and belief system. Is there any evidence that he does not believe that all kids should be inspired, that all should be taught color doesn’t matter?

  2. I think this one is gonna cause you some trouble today USW. The whole time I was reading I couldn’t believe you were in favor of it.

    Seems to me that if anything this trip just adds fuel to the race problem. It would be totally different if all the kids in the class were black. Then everyone gets to go. But I see all kinds of trouble with who got to go. It absolutely draws a line in the sand. Black on one side white on the other. Doesn’t make sense. It’s been my experience with my kids..10 years apart.. that kids do not see a problem with race. They just all see themselves as kids. Not black kids – not white kids – just kids. It’s the adults who make it a black vs white deal. Why even plant the seed in the kid’s heads that there is a problem. It’s not a problem with the kids. They have no clue that it’s a problem. If it just gets left at that we wouldn’t have a race problem. I could keep going but I’ll stop right here. Bad decision by the adults 😦

  3. Mathius says:

    I’m not quite clear on something. Why couldn’t the white kids go too? The black kids would have been inspired by the black professor anyway (and the school could have made a point of emphasizing that black people can be sucessful and brilliant). White kids still would have been inspired anyway.

    • Bingo. This is why I think the action was wrong. There was no need to discriminate.

      • Mathius says:

        JB, can you please disagree with me? It freaks me out a little bit when we agree..

        • I disagree. I don’t think you’re freaked out at all when I agree with you.

          Happy 🙂

          • Mathius says:

            HA

            Much better 🙂

            • Matt…how are you today, sir?

              • Mathius says:

                Me? I’m good. I’ve restocked my grog and added a motion activated turret to ensure that it doesn’t disappear on me again. I’ve also added a couple turrets to the roof in case of para-raptors.

                Otherwise, life is fine if you don’t count the fact that I hate my job with the heat of a thousand suns.

                And yourself?

              • Doing well, sir….thank you….there is hope for you yet…ONLY the heat of a thousand suns…..

                Ah…so you caught the reference to my new attack group…para-raptors…a rather unique touch..doncha know.

                Ummmmm….what does the missus think of the new additions to the roof? I hope your turrets are not too noisy. Remember this…my para-raptors are efficient in HALO jumps…

              • Mathius says:

                The armor plating on my roof muffles the sound.

              • Nice touch

              • Since I do not believe in theft (thus you need not fear me steaking your grog), I would like to know where you get your grog, or now you make it. I love a good grog, but I am not familiar with its makeup and I would never stoop to the point of thinking I deserve some of yours just because you have some and I don’t. That would be a socialist, classist mentality! Oh the horror!

  4. Common Man says:

    USW;

    I’m sure there were 0 White, Hispanic or Asian children in that school struggling with math and science. I mean we all know that Asian kids are born with a natural perpensity to grasp science and math. We also know that all White children are already ahead of African-American children because of the White kids parents being more prosperous; and therefore educationally advanced. And it would not make any sense to take Hispanic children, because we all know that the best they can aspire to is Head Gardner or foreman of a migritory crew.

    Oh, and while we are at it we should also point out that there was absolutely no reason to take kids labeled “Special Ed”, because we all know that the best they can hope for is a position at McDonalds or ‘greeter’ at Wallmart.

    Because I have no knowledge otherwise, I will assume this man was acting with compassion and inspiration, but then again it is still an act of discrimination. Reverse discrimination, but discrimination none the less.

    Now if this particular set of children were ones who were accidemically identified as having specific difficulties with the math and science curriculum, and as a result they were being given extra attention or training, then we might have a different story. That is most likely not the case.

    The fact that these kids, the Principal and the speaker were African-American, and this took place in Michigan, means there is not going to be much hype or media coverage. Even if the parents of the non-African-American kids ban together and formally protest this act or discrimination there will be little if any coverage. And that is because we currently live in a society that only permits minorities to make that claim. I mean ask yourself, when was the last time anyone heard any story of a White person winning a discrimination battle based on color?

    How much press claiming discrimination would we have seen if a Principal of Irish annsestory decided to take only the Irish children to an Irish festival or event in order to inspire Irish children to excell?

    Do you think the African-American parents would scream discrimination had an Asian Principal taken only Asian children to Asian art show?

    Nope, intentionally or not the Principal and school district were wrong. Should he be fired, NO, but maybe he needs to attend some discrimination awareness classes; I mean that’s what they would do with the Irish or Asian Principal.

    CM

    • I’m not sure which side of the fence your on. You seemed to have argued both sides there.

      I don’t see any other groups, Asian, Irish, Mexican, Cuban, Indian, claiming that they are somehow at a disadvantage from the start. It seems to only be the black folks who do that. Why are they the only ones who feel that way. It’s not like they don’t have some role models. MLK, Bill Cosby, Michael Jordan, Condoleeza Rice, Oprah, I can go on. I also don’t really see white folks intentionally keeping the black folks down. They think that in THEIR heads while no other group is actually keeping them down. And THEY continue to harp about it. No one else does but them. What’s up with that?

      • Common Man says:

        Anita;

        I was trying to point out that anytime you seperate individuals based upon race, gender, intelligence, social status, or abilities you have some form of discrimination; regardless of your intentions.

        Although I am sure this man is an outstanding individual he was discrimintory in his actions.

        CM

      • icomeanon says:

        Anita:
        Living in Georgia, I have seen discrimination against both African American and Latino communities. Factually speaking, like the African American movement the Mexican Americans had a similar movement which overlapped the African American movement. It was called the Chicano movement and it struggled with not only personal identity but also the Mexican discrimination particularly throughout California.
        As a Spanish minor in college, I was witness to many a session in which the Latino students talked about discrimination. My professor even shared a time when she went to get her car washed and the blond Caucasian woman at the front desk casually informed her that there were no jobs available (assuming she was coming in to ask for a job rather than have her Mercedes washed). The voices of the Latino community are certainly there, but the self-righteous and blinded Americans of the Bible Belt show no compassion.
        In the news recently, American Indians won a great battle in the Supreme Court over contracts the American government signed but refused to make good on. The American Indians of all states ARE extremely disadvantaged, but their voice is so small, no one really hears it.
        These people do speak, but we often turn a deaf ear.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      “I mean we all know that Asian kids are born with a natural perpensity to grasp science and math.”

      Jimmy the Greek?

      😉

      • I won’t even get into what Howard Cosell said…

      • Good one, Ray…good one…..Probably an Asian in the background somewhere, doncha know. 🙂

        HOw are you today sir.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          D13 – I am good sir. What do you make of the reports that circulated out of Arizona, supposedly from LE, disputing that there is escalation in crime/violence due to II? I was very puzzled by that.

          Hope you are well and safe.

          • I do not put much stock in the reports like that as I am able to see classified documents that most do not…therein, I have a slight advantage but also a disadvantage in that I cannot say much…but I can say that the escalation is there and large. I will also say that it will now be down played as the anti movement gains steam and the reality will not be reported.

            • Bottom Line says:

              D13,

              While I’m thinking about it…

              I regret that I was unable to participate in the discussions about your two articles. I have a lot to say about it and feel that I could have made a contribution.(too late now)

              As you already know, illegal immigration is a big one with me. Unlike many that were surprised at what is really going on on the border, I am well aware as I have been paying attention and have lived in CA, AZ, and TX in recent years.

              THANK YOU COLONEL, for telling it like it is. Very well written!

              • My distinct pleasure, sir…..

                Have a great one today….may the winds of fortune be at your back….

  5. This situation just strengthens my belief that popular culture not not want to eliminate racism. It embraces it.

    To truly eliminate racism, we must not make ANY conclusions based on race. The fact that black students are doing worse than their white peers IS NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR SKIN COLOR! It is because of the fiscal means of their parents/communities. If you want to correct this gap, do so ON THE BASIS OF ECONOMIC NEED, not race!

    This field trip had a primarily good motive (I think), but that doesn’t change the fact that it is racist. I tell my good liberal friend that he can support affirmative action all he wants, he may even decide it is right, but he has to admit that it is racist. Making a decision on the basis of someone’s race is the DEFINITION of racism!

    It is the same for all types of discrimination. We don’t fix the problem, we latch onto some specter of racism because one group is economically or socially lacking. For example, the Arizona law is not racist per se. The goal of the law is to stop illegal immigration. The fact that Mexicans are the primary race of the people affected by this law (I believe) did not come into consideration. If we were being flooded by Chinese illegal immigrants, there would be the same fervor and the same law.

    I was looking over Obama’s picks for the supreme court, the pros and cons. For the two men I saw one of the cons was that they were white men. For the two women one of the pros was that they were women. This is SEXIST! Making a decision on the basis of gender is SEXIST! Wanting the court to have a specific gender balance is SEXIST! If you want to eliminate sexism, eliminate gender from the consideration. The most qualified candidate should get the job, period. Race, gender, ethnicity, religion, etc. should not be involved at all!

    Not likely that will happen, though…

  6. Ray Hawkins says:

    @USW and others……

    My only question in a read of this is as follows:

    “The controversy began last week when the 30 students, members of an African-American academic support group…..”

    I’m focusing in on African-American academic support group. I’m picturing an organized group that meets periodicially to help members of the group in their academics. Maybe its formal, maybe somewhat informal. Importantly it is identified as a group. I recall from my HS days that there were numerous groups and orgs that meet on school property which meant they at least received nominally some school ‘support’ to use the facilities – I seem to recall one that was devoted specifically to Christianity, prayer or something of the like (Chris or USW can maybe clarify that).

    So – is it that the group happened to be all African-American and did it by definition exclude all non-African Americans? If the later, was there at least the opportunity for other groups to organize based on some cultural/social construct (e.g. Jewish Students or Latino/Latina Students)? Unless there was clear exclusion in the formation and conduct of the group and inherent preferential treatment aside from the trip – then I see nothing wrong at all with the trip.

    • Yes, it did exclude all but African-American children. And when it was determined that there were still not enough seats, some black females were denied as well. It seems to be targeted strictly for blacks, with emphasis on black males.

      This quote from the principal…“The intent of our field trip was not to segregate or exclude students as has been reported, but rather to address the societal issues, roadblocks and challenges that our African American children will face as they pursue a successful academic education here in our community.”

      Seems on the surface to do just what they claim it was not supposed to do. I believe I understand the sentiment, and do not disagree with it, but it could have been done a bit more tactfully. For instance, if they planned something “special” for this group, a parallel event should have been planned for everyone else. I believe that would have calmed the waters a bit, but their actions still appear racial…

      • Common Man says:

        Terry;

        Yes, “equal but seperate” that is definately the best way to ensure no one is discriminated against and minimize social unrest.

        THAT IS RACIST AND DISCRIMINATION.

        CM

        • Dude, chill out. I was just trying to give a situation that would have made things a little better than they were.

    • Common Man says:

      Ray;

      The fact that African-American’s, Hispanic American’s, Asian-American’s can form a specific group that allocates certain ethnic heritage and White people cannot is racist and discriminitory.

      I went to High School from 70-74 and we were one of the schools that endured busing. It was not to long after that we dealt with various non-white support groups/clubs, “Black History Month”, curriculum changes, and all the issues that arrose.

      I remember being forced to attend Black-History events taking place in the school auditorium that started with the Black National Anthem in which “ALL” students were required to stand for. However any Black student that decided not to stand during THE National Anthem taking place prior to the start of any sporting event was left alone.

      THAT IS REVERSE DISCRIMINATION AT IT’S WORSE!!!!

      A majority of White parents bannded together and formally complained to the principal, who in turn stopped forcing students to attend any event.

      This country has a number of non-white organizations, events and entities that I am sure have benefited its members, however should a group of people decide to start something like WET (White Entertainment Television) or NWPCF (National White Person College Fund) or any other type of organization requiring members be white there would be a great deal of unrest among the non-white people. Isn’t that discrimination?

      Even if this group of children were part of a African-American club or special group it does not erase the race card or elliminate discrimination.

      Actions of this nature, regardless of heartfelt intent, only serve to further demonstrait racisum and discrimination.

      CM

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        I have generally only viewed such as racist if an advantage is gained from doing so.

        I don’t disagree that any attempt by whites to organize is inherently viewed as racist. That is wrong and presumptive.

        • Common Man says:

          Ray;

          Just want make sure I understand your point:

          If the Mason’s decided to start a college fund but the funds were only granted to students whose fathers were Free Mason’s would that be an advantage to white people and therfore racist?

          If so, why then can certain African-American organizations contribute college funds to only African-American’s and not be considered racist?

          CM

          • Chris Devine says:

            There are black Freemasons. Also, Shriner’s hospitals offer help based upon need, not who the child’s parents are. My brother had his femur broken and my parents applied for assistance from the Shriners. My father was a 32nd degree Shriner and that didn’t make a bit of difference (there were others more in need of treatment than my brother).

            Regarding scholarships specifically, many (but not all) do require that you be from a specific group or a child of a member. This isn’t racist or anything close to it. It’s a matter of allocating limited resources to further a group’s established goals.

            Private charities are not bound to the same rules as public ones if they do not receive federal funding. The Boy Scouts have come under a lot of fire for excluding atheists and gays. But as a private organization they are allowed to discriminate. I know in my troop there were gays and more than a few non-believers. They had to keep their mouths shut or risk being ejected.

    • Ray, I think what you are referring to (and perhaps wanting to find?) is that this was some sort of club, perhaps that meet separately from school day activities. If this was the case, it would be OK, ie, the Math & Science Club and it ONLY happened to have black members.

      None of the above seems to be the case so this is blatant racism regardless of the spin of the principal.

    • Chris Devine says:

      There was a bible club. Mr. Taylor was the faculty sponsor.

  7. While the principle’s intentions may have been good, all kids need this kind of inspiration. Anytime you exclude, it just adds to the divisions in our society.

    The children who went on the trip were booed by their classmates when they returned to school.

    I found this line unfortunate, but I don’t blame the kids. It’s what kids do – pick on anyone or anything that’s different. And the principle just gave them another ‘difference’ to pick on.

    If all kids had gone on the field trip, all the kids would have seen an example of a successful scientist, and in science class the next day they all could be talking about how cool science is, etc.

    This may not sound the best, but it would probably be good for the white kids to see a successful African-American scientist.

    The best way to breakdown stereotypes and barriers is to do fun and exciting stuff together.

    • Todd

      A rare Friday it is today. “This may not sound the best, but it would probably be good for the white kids to see a successful African-American scientist.”

      I absolutely and completely agree with you. Any chance we get to break the stereo type of black Americans that has been created by gang rap, TV and movies is a VERY GOOD thing. And the place to start is with the elementary aged kids.

      Best to you this fine day.
      JAC

      • JAC….are you trying to make sense again today? Logical?

        • D13

          Good morning Colonel. I know, its a weakness I just can’t seem to shake.

          I wonder if there is a support group I could attend. Maybe something like misplaced logical thinkers anonymous? Or self proclaimed philosophers anonymous.

          A very blue Big Sky day today sir. I hope you have the same. Although I am guessing yours is much WARMER. Heavy frost again this morning. Winter storm advisories for the weekend.

          Hasta La Vista
          JAC

          • Yessir….a little overcast here but the temps are going to be in the 80’s….however…we do have a cold front coming in..severe drop to the high 70’s…..

  8. Good morning, my brother in arms…. Today….we disagree. As I read your article and did a *small* amount of research, my conclusions are as follows:

    First of all, I was immediately reminded of something that most on here will probably not remember…Quotas. All in the name of racial equality or “closing the gap.” That was a social experiment that failed miserably….hence, quotas are no longer used. I was immediately reminded of the forced busing days. I was immediately reminded of the “whites only” drinking fountains that existed in the 60’s. So, please allow me to pick some of your points and explain my thoughts.

    USW quoted: “The principal, Mike Madison, who is black, said the trip was part of an effort to close the achievement gap between black and white students.”

    D13 thinks: So, in order to “close” a gap, to discriminate against one ethnic group is acceptable to “bring them to an educational standard” that supposedly white children are excelling in. Or a different way of saying it (straight out of the 60’s) Black children have been suppressed for so long that it takes favoritism to make it equal. Hence my comment about quotas…..the ethnic population is 40% black so 40% of your work forces MUST be black. It matters not whether they are qualified, put them in the front. Seems to me that this line of though creates class warfare. Everyone knows that most Asian children excel in the sciences and the whites and blacks are left behind. So to close this gap, let’s exclude the Asians until the other races, ethnic groups…whatever…catch up. Can’t buy this theory, sir.

    USW quotes: “The goal of the trip, Madison said, was to close test score gaps and inspire the students to consider careers in the sciences.”

    D13 Responds: This seems pretty hypocritical…first part of the sentence translates to..black test scores are not as high as white, so cut the whites off and cater to the blacks…(D13’s translation, of course)….the second part of the sentence address..inspire the students…it did not specify “black, in this case, but we all know what he meant. D13 asks…what inspiration? It seems that they just inspired racism and entitlement of one group over another.

    USW quotes: ““But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.”

    D13 wonders: Why would it make any difference if the renowned rocket scientist was ANY color…he is, in fact, a rocket scientist. Color has no preference…however, don’t you think a great teaching point could have been….”Look, he is a black scientist and professional and renowned. ANYONE can do this, it makes no difference in your ethnicity. What a teaching lesson this would have been to ALL students and a great wake up call to the underachieving….whether black/white/green/red/purple…..chartreuse….rainbow……you get the drift.

    The article further states: ““The intent of our field trip was not to segregate or exclude students, as has been reported, but rather to address the societal issues, roadblocks and challenges that our African-American children will face as they pursue a successful academic education here in our community.”

    D13 muses: Hmmm….seems they did exactly what they intended not to do. Someone will have to explain to me the societal issues, roadblocks, and challenges to the “BLACK” students the last 30 years. (NOTE I DID NOT SAY 40 YEARS 0R 50 YEARS). Instead of a societal issue, or roadblock from society, or challenges from society…..does personal responsibility play any role here? How about the breakup of families or the failure of parents to instill proper studying habits or ethical behavior or the teaching of the entitlement mentality? Instead of teaching. “the white man is responsible for everything”.

    Ok, now to your synopsis, my friend.

    USW says: “But why would we ever allow it to get to a point where something as positive as a class trip to teach children that anything is possible regardless of the color of their skin, is portrayed as a negative and deserving of scorn from other parents? We get to that point when the goal is no longer successful education, but instead is some sense of “fairness” or “equal treatment”.

    D13 interprets differently: While the goal may have been exactly what you proposed, it created just the opposite effect. Because race is such an issue today and because race is such a hot button talking point ( I refer to the Arizona law as a great example, where the intent is great but the effect was racial )…I think that that this principal missed a GREAT teaching and binding opportunity to help bridge a gap…not only in test scores but a racial gap as well by trying to teach a comprehensive approach….called…………teamwork.

    Conclusion: Why do you think that the kids got “boos” when they returned? It was because a segment was left out and it perpetuates what is wrong in society today. It seems to me, that they have now created a rift at the school…that will probably grow and create further segregation…..blacks sitting with blacks….whites sitting with whites….hispanics sitting with hispanics….etc. Exactly what we have now.

    Before you or someone else asks….I will offer a solution to future issues as this.

    (1)Why not sit down with the school board and identify the problems that exist in the local area?
    (2)Then, take the problems that exist, and approach the school principal and the parents (all parents) in a town hall or PTA meeting and try to come up with solutions?
    (3)Why not then meet with just the children at the school in open forum and ask them what THEY feel could be a solution? Sometimes, children come up with great innocent ideas that work.
    (4) Develop a method of approach and standard operating procedure for that particular school or region that is agreed upon by all…parents and teachers of the goals and ALL work towards that goal. If the goal is failing then ALL meet again and identify WHY the goal is failing, change it, and work towards it.

    I think that you are correct in your identification of the issue…which was to educate…but I think that the method was wrong and that you cannot teach that segregation is wrong…then segregate…what is the real lesson then? It takes me back to my “Team” days where I had a Hispanic and Black person on my team… we shared water, food, bedding, blood….I never had a hankering for watermelon or tacos because of that. My skin did not turn colors nor my dialect change…but all racial tensions were gone when we learned as a team….not as individuals or racial class.

    Now to answer your over riding question at the end of the article:

    USW queries: “If your end goal is anything but freedom, what do you think the chances are that you will be free”

    D13 has a very long and comprehensive answer: None.

    Have a great day my friend…keep the sun at your back and your powder dry and always take the high ground. (But watch out for my new and improved “Para-raptors”….death from above.”

    To DPM: More grog…need more grog. Please raid Matt’s fridge.

    • I agree with most of your post. but why wven bring it up as a probblem to the school board.

      You answered your own problem by saying “you cannot teach that segregation is wrong- then segregate.”

      Then you threw in the team aspect. That’s the answer. We’re all the same team.

      I just don’t see it as any more than that.

      • The school board because that is where policy is made…that is the reason.

        • To extrapolate….the school board can dictate policy to schools. You must have the board on the same approach or they can veto.

        • Sure..but then the only policy should be that we’re all the same team. Nothing more than that needs to be involved. The rest of it belongs in the family. It’s the family who should teach their family history and culture not the schools. We all stay on the same equal page that way.

          • I agree…but I did not see a culture issue here….only educational…I believe that was the intent. However, you are correct..identify the goals and then get to them….with everyone.

  9. Jennie says:

    In my opinion we need to stop treating black children differently. Too many black children are told all of their lives that the people around them are biased against them and that it will be harder for them to succeed. This makes them feel hopeless and see racism where it doesn’t exist. When they don’t get a job or a promotion, they will automatically think that it was because of their race and instead of trying harder they will give up in despair. In trying to send the message that black kids can succeed too, they are also sending the message that black kids are less likely to succeed.

    Why do we even compare test scores of different races? What good can come of it? How are black children supposed to feel when they hear that their race doesn’t score as well? Inferior? Discriminated against?

    • I completely agree.

    • You are correct Jennie, but you know who really needs to stop treating black children differently? Is the black people!

      As long as you have the Sharptons, Jacksons and Wrights of the world beating down “their own” to keep them angry, nothing will change.

  10. Bottom Line says:

    Dr. Martin Luther King had a dream of a color blind society.

    The Civil Rights Movement was about equality.

    What I see so often that annoys the piss outta me is that “equal rights” has somehow turned into “special rights”. This is NOT what was intended.

    What makes the actions of the principle wrong is that he is teaching inequality. I don’t think he is a racist, and honestly think his actions were of good intentions. I will argue that this feild trip is actually a detriment to the social development of the black children. What it is doing is sending the message that “It’s because you’re black.”.

    The result of this repeated message is that when they grow up, they are sometimes unable to take responsibility for their actions. They have an issue and revert to what they were taught, which is “It’s because you’re black”.

    Children will naturally notice obvious racial differences, even at a very early age. If that realization of racial differences is accompanied by a message of equality, then they are taught that race doesn’t matter. If it accompanied by segregation and inequality, then they are taught that it makes a big difference and that “It’s because they’re black”.

    There are a number of reasons why those kids weren’t doing so well at math and science. I’m sure that none of those reasons had anything to do with race.

    He is inserting race where it doesn’t belong.

    • Bottom Line says:

      Mike Madison – “But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.”

      “for even them”?

      What exactly does that mean?

  11. The idea for the field trip is based on identity politics and the outcome of the trip is to further identity politics, whether that is the stated intent or not. That is the underlying psychology.

    Ray hit a good point to which I would add, that if it were an independent “support group” that went on the trip, the trip should have been conducted outside the normal school hours. Which is easy to do with young kids because their school day ends long before the scientist’s work day. The school district could have helped secure a small grant to help pay for the bus cost.

    JAC

    • JAC….you did it again.

    • Common Man says:

      JAC;

      I would agree with you only if the “support group” was made up of children who were accidemically struggling with Math and Science, regadless of their race. Forming a group, support or otherwise, based solely upon race is racisum and discrimination.

      As noted in this particular story only African-American children were included and in doing so we see an example of reverse discrimination.

      Hope you are well and summer arrives soon to your neck of the woods.

      CM

      • CM

        I would settle for just plain old Spring right now.

        The fly fishing has been terrible. Hard to fish in 30 mph winds with driving rain and snow. Then turned 80 and the rivers ran high and brown. Then back to 30’s and wind and rain and snow.

        Kind of wished I had booked a spring trip to the White River this year as you suggested. Supposed to be nice this weekend, but then it is the weekend. Meaning no room to fish without stepping on someone.

        Best to you and yours.
        JAC

        • Common Man says:

          JAC;

          There is always still time. I wouldn’t recommend July or August because of the heat. I have been there in August and seen the temps go to 100+. Fall is a great time starting around the middle to end of September. Less traffic and temps in the 70-80 average.

          If you go first get in touch with Steve McCumber at the Norfork River Resort http://www.norforkriverresort.com for accomidations and guides. Tell him to set you up with either Keith or Steve. Oh, and make sure to have at least 1 shore lunch during your visit.

          Also, the elite’s down ther have managed to regulate a great majority of the Norfork river to catch and release, and artificial single barb lures, so if you want to spend some time swinging a fly rod you will be able to do so on one of the greatest Brooke trout rivers in the south.

          CM

  12. (in fact I don’t think I have any at all to even get ready!).

    Sorry (blush) USWep. I’ve been big busy this week… hopefully on Sunday I’ll get it finished…

    • USWeapon says:

      lol…. I would never want to make a guest commentary feel like a book report. There are no timelines that anyone is operating on. Take your time my friend. I only mentioned that because I want to inspire others to fill the void and write what they are passionate about. It wasn’t meant to place pressure on anyone who is working on one.

  13. naten53 says:

    I am surprised no one has mentioned USWs reference to political correctness and how that relates to this.

    USW said, ”I have come to the conclusion that the decision to have this “black children only” field trip was incredibly stupid. But I do not feel that it was wrong”

    Now removing any politically correct rhetoric, I don’t think I have seen anyone yet dispute that in general black children do have lower test scores then other students. So was it wrong to try to inspire the black children. Inspiration is a good tool for educating children. Is it wrong that you would choose black children to go on a trip like this? I would say no. Is it wrong to take only one group of students that were part of an “academic support group”? I would also say no. Is it wrong to exclude others from the “academic support group” if they were not African American? I would say yes.

    However, the article does not mention if people were excluded from the group, so we have no way of knowing at this point if this purposely excluded others. Now it can be argued that calling it the African American Academic Support Group is titled that to passively exclude others, but it can also be argued that like colleges that have African American Studies, they don’t exclude others if they do sign up.

    Again removing political correct rhetoric, reaching students through an academic support group vs. calling it an African American academic support group sounds like they might be excluding others, but what if naming it that way was the best way to get the troubled black students to attend?

    In conclusion I think this is only wrong if others were excluded from the academic support group, which we do not know based on this article.

    • @Naten…..the very small research that I did indicated that it was exclusive from the very beginning. No other race was to be involved. Since this is a public school…this is where I have the problem.

      Had this been done outside of school hours as a private organization…..I would have no problem with it.

      I also submit that if a private white organization came in during school hours and took only whites to something….exclusive of everyone else…..the ACLU would be picketing outside the door within hours.

  14. Warning

    Yesterday, the Dow fell 998 points in a half hour.

    That had never happened before.

    There is no explanation.

    It then climbed over 600 points in half an hour.

    There is no explanation. All in all, it was a wild ride.

    Gold shot up by over $33.

    Silver went up 18 cents.

    This says to me that gold’s move was based on safe-haven investing.

    Silver did not participate.

    The world wanted out of euros yesterday. So, it bought dollars.

    It wanted yen more than it wanted dollars. It wanted gold, although oil fell.

    Silver just sat there.

    We see here safe havens in a time of panic.

    It’s pretty clear where you want to be: in gold.

    It was based on fear of an insolvency panic (Greece), which points to a banking crisis.

    Investors assume that in such a crisis, the European Central Bank will inflate.

    I think this is a correct assumption.

    Fears build. Establishment spinmeisters tell us that the EU will act, that the ECB will act, that Germany will act.

    Stock market investors tentatively accept, then reject, the official spin. The market gets volatile.

    Then, without warning, the spin wears off.

    People think: “There is no solution here.” They try to sell. Nobody buys. Prices fall. Then computerized trading takes over. Stocks hit an air pocket.

    Conventional investors will shrug this off, just as this Establishment pundit shrugged it off.

    It will not stay shrugged off.

    What happened yesterday revealed a pattern.

    The numbers are not relevant for long-term investing.

    We see where frightened people put their money in a crisis.

    The crisis in Europe will escalate for months. It cannot be solved. At best, it can be postponed.

    This is the beginning of a currency crisis.

    • Bottom Line says:

      I like to compare these instances where the dow suddenly plunges(summer ’08, 4/20/09, yesterday) to trimmers before an earthquake.

      A pattern of trimmers is a good indication of an impending quake. No one knows when it’ll actually hit, they just know it’s most likely comming.

    • Saw where the trading was manipulated (theory by someone) because a billion trades is unheard of……

      Europe…..that is another story. trouble ahead.

      • @BF….I was noting the M1 supply in ECM…and it is not there. I disagree with the pundits…I see Spain going next and then Italy and then Portugal….but I also noticed that Belgium has a significant problem brewing.

        Thoughts?

        • D13,

          I agree with you – the domino effect is on its way.

          The ECB is unlike the FED – it is completely independent.

          They will not save countries, they will save the banks of those countries.

          The effects of Europe will be felt everywhere – buckle up!

          • “They will not save countries, they will save the banks of those countries.”

            I agree…there will be no run on the banks as the banks simply will sit on its money.

    • Cyndi P says:

      Sounds like a good time to buy silver. Once the masses figure out what’s really going on, gold will really take off, and be out of reach for many. That’s when silver takes off too, right?

      • Cyndi,

        No.

        Silver is not a haven for risk.

        It is a speculative metal. Just as yesterday, gold shot up – silver was flat.

        Investing in silver has different reasons – however, risk aversion is rarely one of them.

        • Cyndi P says:

          So I get an “F” on my homework assignment?

          My reasoning is for wealth protection for the small fry such as myself. Shouldn’t we be preparing for inflation and probable economic collapse?

          • Cyndi,

            No “F” grade – more like a “B”.

            The challenge with silver is it is far more volatile then gold – more things “move it” up or down.

            You can purchase gold as small 1/10 oz. or about $130 a coin.

            Start there.

        • If you say so BF, I have done well (percentage wise) with silver, and, while it is more volitile and unstable than gold, it is still not a bad precious metal to be in when one cannot afford gold. It is a superior fallback to most alternatives, certainly beats a paper anything.

    • I heard about this possible explanation on the radio

      Sharp stock market drop likely human, computer error
      Trader attempting to short-sell 16 million shares of S&P 500 stock entered a ‘b’ for billion instead of an ‘m’ for million, sources said
      By Lucas Mearian
      May 6, 2010 06:22 PM ET
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      Computerworld – The Dow Jones Industrial Average plummeted almost 1,000 points in a half-hour Thursday, the cause of which appears to be human error exacerbated by a market made more volatile by high-speed trades and automatic sale orders that are measured in milliseconds.

      According to published reports and sources a trader attempting to short-sell 16 million shares of S&P 500 stock entered a “b” for billion instead of an “m” for million. That error sent high frequency traders scurrying, causing liquidity to vanish.

      The Dow fell as low as 9,867 points from its previous day’s close of 10,868 before rebounding to 10,464 points by the close of the market Thursday.

      Chris Nagy, managing director of order routing strategy at TD Ameritrade, was moderating a panel on market structure at a trade operations conference at about 2 p.m. EST, when he was notified of the market drop.

      “It seemed a little suspicious at the time. That’s our conclusion,” Nagy said. “But we’ve warned the SEC [U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission] of a lot of the problems created with some of the high-frequency trading in the marketplace.”

      “When you have some algorithmic error, which this is appearing to be, the impact of that trade caused the pricing in the markets to collapse,” Nagy continued.

      For example, Nagy said some of TD Ameritrade’s client orders, where the normal price of the stock was $60, received trade fulfillments at .11 cents. Proctor and Gamble share prices also dropped almost 37% before rebounding.

      In another example, The Wall Street Journal’s MarketBeat blog reported Accenture’s stock price plummeted from over $40 at 2:47 p.m. to $.01 at 2:48 p.m. Thursday.

      “So clearly there was a flaw in the system and there were some algorithmic events that triggered a much more cataclysmic event in the marketplace,” Nagy said.

      At the time of the drop, the Dow had already dipped about 300 points due in large measure to the economic meltdown in Greece.

      An SEC spokesman said the regulatory agency had “no immediate” comment on Thursday’s market drop. Nagy said, however, that the SEC has been asking brokerages for comment on the market volatility caused by high-speed trading platforms.

      “I think this certainly this escalates the issue and tells us The Securities and Exchange Commission is going to have to move in a more expedient fashion to rectify some of the current symptoms we have in the marketplace…,” he said.

      TD Ameritrade recently sent a comment letter to the SEC warning it of potential problems created by high-frequency trading.

      “The concern there is that this really left our retail clients exposed. While we didn’t see any panic with the retail client, we saw a lot of pricing inaccuracies,” he said.

      “We’re still trying to get resolution for that. In fact, I feel we’ll probably be seeking resolution for the next couple of days.”

      Late last year, the SEC began reviewing the practice of “flash” trading, where some large financial companies get access to stock trading information milliseconds before that information is made available to the trading public

      http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9176409/Sharp_stock_market_drop_likely_human_computer_error

      • If an error is enough to cause the markets, gold and T-bills to roll…. the market sits on a knife edge.

        Hint: don’t you be sitting on the same knife.

  15. Judy Sabatini says:

    Hell everyone, long time, no be here I know, but have been reading along when I can, just haven’t had much to say lately.

    First of all, I have to agree with what G.A. said above. In my opinion, I found this to be reverse discrimination and I have to agree, that if it was just the white students that went, it would have been the top news of the day.

    I am not a racist person, never have been, and never will be.But, What about the Negro college, where only blacks can go, but it’s okay for them to go any other college? I don’t get that. I don’t care if you’re black, white, blue or green, you can do anything with your life that you want to do. You get out of life what you put into it is how I see it.

    This to me is like that story yesterday about those 5 kids who wore T-shirts with the American flag on it, and was told to either put them inside out, or they will be sent home home, because of Cinco De Mayo, and it might offend some. I’m getting a little tired of all this political correct bit and how everything anymore offends somebody.

    I also agree with the statement that if this field trip was outside class time, then maybe there wouldn’t be so much upset by it. If there is to be field trips during school hours, then make sure you include all students, not just one particular race. There are and have been many black people who have made a big difference in society and what they have accomplished, and I’m sure there will be many more, I have no doubt, but am just tired of the race issue always surfacing all the time.

    Those are just my opinions on this, and don’t mean any harm to anybody or to hurt anyone’s feelings. I only wish the best for everybody in what they try to achieve in their lives.

    Hope all are doing good for a Friday.

    Tale Care

    Judy

  16. The only way this was not wrong or illegal is if it were a private school. If the decision on who to take was based on teh lowest performers, fine, but it was based on race. I get that there are cultural differences and he is trying to reacha certain culture and affect them, but he is reaching them by using the thing that seperates them, and reinforcing it. Besides, it will take a lot more than a few motivational speakers to change these kids. We need a culture of humanity, not of races, and we need to address the things that are really causing the grades gap, cause its not lack of belief. It may be lack of interest, but that cannot be easily switch either. We need to pricatise the schools so that the parents take interest for once.

    • Jon

      Point of clarification. It must be private and it must NOT have IRS Not for Profit status. The latter prohibits discrimination based on race without very strict criteria and controls.

      This was obviously not the case here.

  17. Cyndi P says:

    posting for comments

    • If you’re gonna let you’re bikini bottoms ride up that high, why don’t cha
      just wear a thong? 😆

      You wanted a comment, heheheheh

      • You’re gonna make me pull out my redneck handbook LOI !!! Do you really want to get me started? 🙂

      • If you’re too drunk to fish — you might be a redneck……

  18. Here is another absolute outrage situation for you . . . Can anyone tell me WHY this is happening in the United States of America?

    Tensions High at California High School Following Flag Flap

    By Joshua Rhett Miller

    – FOXNews.com

    Tensions are rising at a California high school where five students were sent home for wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo.

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    Tensions are rising at a California high school where five students were sent home for wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo.

    More than 200 Hispanic students reportedly skipped class on Thursday and marched to school district headquarters while chanting “we want respect” and “si se puedes” — “yes we can” — the Morgan Hill Times reported.

    “We did this to support the Latino/Hispanic community,” Francine Roa, a 2005 Live Oak High School graduate, told the newspaper.

    At least six Morgan Hill police vehicles traveled alongside the students, many of whom carried Mexican flags. No arrests were made related to the march, the newspaper reported.

    Police have been told to be on alert for gang-related retaliation against the boys, according to Ken Jones, whose stepson, Daniel Galli, was one of the students who refused to turn their T-shirts inside-out when asked by a vice principal on Wednesday.
    related links

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    California Students Sent Home for Wearing U.S. Flags on Cinco de Mayo

    “We just want this whole thing to die down,” Jones told FoxNews.com. “We’re not trying to keep these flames firing.”

    The five teens — Galli, Austin Carvalho, Matt Dariano, Dominic Maciel and Clayton Howard — were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, one of the boys’ parents told FoxNews.com. The youths complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal’s office.

    The students were then told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home, though it would not be considered a suspension. Rodriguez told the students he did not want any fights to break out between Mexican-American students celebrating their heritage and those wearing American flags, the parent said.

    But Jones said the preemptive action was unnecessary, and that Rodriguez “overstepped his bounds.”

    “The issue was, there was nothing going on,” Jones told Fox News on Friday. “There was no sense of violence at all amongst the students, there was no conversation, there was no bullying.

    “We just feel like the vice principal overstepped his bounds. He jumped in too quickly. We can understand he might be concerned something would happen, but there was no indication that was going to happen at all.”

    Officials at the high school, a 1,300-student institution in Santa Clara County, near San Jose, have not returned several messages seeking comment.

    As of late Thursday, Jones said the five boys’ parents have no plans to sue the school or Morgan Hill Unified School District, which has characterized the incident as “extremely unfortunate” and is conducting an ongoing investigation. Several attorneys have contacted the families offering to represent them pro bono, Jones said.

    “We’re keeping an open mind,” he said. “We want to stand up for our First Amendment rights.”

    He said the families are seeking an apology from school officials and want the students’ unexcused absences for leaving school to be expunged.

    Galli said he frequently wears the American flag T-shirt to school and that he wasn’t trying to incite any tension. Asked if he wore the shirt to make a statement related to the ongoing immigration debate, Galli said, “No, it had absolutely nothing to do with that.”

    District officials, meanwhile, sent a voicemail message in English and Spanish to all parents late Thursday.

    “The Morgan Hill Unified School District does not prohibit nor do we discourage wearing patriotic clothing,” the message from Superintendent Wesley Smith said. “The incident on May 5 at Live Oak High School is extremely unfortunate. While campus safety is our primary concern and administrators made decisions yesterday in an attempt to ensure campus safety, students should not, and will not, be disciplined for wearing patriotic clothing. This situation and our response are under review.”

    Asked if the district will be taking any steps to quell rising tensions at the school, a district official told FoxNews.com in an e-mail, “Our focus for [Thursday] was student safety. Students are safe and administrators are continuing to work through the investigation.”

    Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at UCLA, said the students are protected under California Education Code 48950, which prohibits schools from enforcing a rule subjecting a high school student to disciplinary sanctions solely on the basis of conduct that, when engaged outside of campus, is protected by the First Amendment.

    If the school could point to previous incidents sparked by students who wore garments with American flags, they could argue that the flag is likely to lead to “substantial disruption,” Volokh said.

    “If, for example, there had been fights over similar things at past events, if there had been specific threats made. But if [school officials] just say, ‘Well, we think it might be offensive to people,’ that’s generally speaking not enough.”

    Volokh said the students and their parents likely have a winning case on their hands if they decide to take the matter to court.

    “Oh yes, it’s almost open and shut,” he said.

    • Just heard there was a lockdown at this school today, so it continues.

    • Cyndi P says:

      Its part of the Reconquista movement. Welcome to Atzlan.

      I wonder how long it will be before they make their big push for the establishment of Atzlan? I’ll have to ask my mom, who lives in SoCal and monitors what’s going on. She told me the other day that the activists know who she is. I don’t get the feeling they’ve threatened her directly but she seems concerned. She’s 80 years old, so probably not considered much of a threat. She sent me a link to an interview (1year ago?) where a La Raza man discussed the plans to eliminate/expell all non-latinos from Atzlan. My mom informed me that light skinned Hispancis (my family) are not considered Hispanic! I wonder how they will fair in the future…..

      • Cyndi P says:

        For anyone who is interested. I asked my what La Raza’s next move is, if they plan to overthrow the state government, etc. Here’s her response:

        They don’t have to overthrow the state or federal government. They are gaining political clout by infiltrating all levels of government as well as our educational system. Not to mention corporations. Sears is one of them. As far as I know, they have at least one Mexican as a CEO! I closed my account and told them why. Sears is also a strong contributor to La Raza and all these other Mexican organization.
        Mexicans plan to take us over politically. By bringing millions of Mexicans to our country, they are already gerrymandering districts by which they elect their own kind. With gerrymandering, they elect a Mexican agent to office with just a few legitimate votes. Google gerrymandering.
        By having a big political representation in Washington, eventually, they can gain support for the new country the want to make of the Southwest. Aztlan is the name.

    • The funny part about this…..May 5th has very little significance in Mexico…it is a marketable item here though. It is not the Mexican Independence and they don’t even close the schools in Mexico. It is an insignificant little battle that took place in the town of Puebla. What brought it on was Mexico defaulted on its loans from France. They would not pay the interest….so the French attacked. Mexican troops were successful in slowing up the French at this battle only a little and France still took Mexico City and installed Maximillan as the ruler of Mexico. The only other significance is that it was the first invasion of the Americas by a foreign power.

      It is only big in the United States. As my parents live in San Miguel Allende, Mexico, 7 months out of the year, I asked them what was happening there….. Nothing happened. No festivals, no holidays…work as usual.

      It is used as another hot button here.

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      Like I said in the above post, it’s really getting sad that anything to do with the American flag, people are taking offense too. WHY? What, now, you can’t show your patriotism in school, can’t fly the flag at your own home because some take offense to it, can’t say the pledge because of One Nation Under God, Takes offense to the National Anthem, and so on and so on. Enough with the political bit.

      If I want to wear a shirt with the flag on it, I will. If I want to display the flag in my front yard, I will. If I want to say the pledge, I will. I get offended by those who get offended with anything that might/will show my patriotism.

      I had 4 flags hanging out in my front yard at one tie=me. One, was the blue star when my youngest was in Iraq, one was the Marine flag, one was the Army flag, and of course the American flag. And, I’ll be damned when some lady stopped at my house and requested that I remove them because they offended her. She said that they bothered her when she drove by my house and she had to see them all the time. I told her, if she must drive by, then don’t look, or go another way, and that I will not take any of them down just to please her, that I was showing my patriotism by displaying them and that I had a son serving in the Marines and serving in Iraq. She got huffy with me, started arguing with me, but i wouldn’t give her the time of day, she turned and left in a huff. A few days later, I saw my flags ripped down on the ground, needless to say, I was very upset, and had an idea of who did it, but couldn’t prove it. I now have my flags in the house where I know they are safe.

      Is this what’s to be expected of people when you want to show your pride and patriotism. It’s a sad, sad day when it comes down to something like this, really sad.

      • Cyndi P says:

        Wow, Judy. The nerve of that woman. I’m pretty sure she had something to do with the flags being ripped down. People like that disgust me. They are destroying the country, and for what? What do they think the result will be? Paradise? More like Hell on Earth.

        • Judy Sabatini says:

          Hi Cyndi

          I’m pretty sure she had something to do with it as well, but like I said, I couldn’t prove if it was or not, not unless she had someone do it for her.

          I can’t understand either for the life of me why people act the way they do, or do the things they do when it comes to the flag. I mean, what’s so offensive about it? Does it not show the freedom of this country, the freedom that other countries don’t. I really don’t understand why people, not all, but some have seem to lost their patriotism and the pride that I thought once was the backbone of this country. Maybe it’s the way schools are being taught anymore, I don’t know.

          Even my son said at his university, there are an awful lot of liberal professors there that try to make you conform to their way of thinking, and if you don’t you might be looking at a lower grade. He doesn’t bite or back down on his thinking, and he argues with them quite often about certain things that they bring up and he sticks to his principles.

          • People are dumb
            People are stupid
            People are dumb and stupid.

            Unless they post on SUFA!!!

      • Bottom Line says:

        Hi Judy,

        (jaw drops, eyes blink) WHAT?!?!?!

        And I thought the whole flag T-shirt thing was disturbing.

        Hearing this makes me angry.

        As Cyndi suggested, this woman has a lot of nerve, And to add, knows no boundaries either.

        YOUR yard, YOUR house, YOUR flags, and YOUR sons. WTF does she think gives her the right to tell you what to do.

        And WTF does she think gives her the right to destroy YOUR property over HER personal problem?

        The second amendment protects YOUR RIGHT to protect YOUR property.

        Proudly hang those flags back up, and when/if she/they return to tear them up again, Shoot her/them.

        🙂

        • BL says: “Proudly hang those flags back up, and when/if she/they return to tear them up again, Shoot her/them.”

          D13 concurs: BL..your stock is still going up. Judy…to leave them in your house is a victory for that woman. Put them back out. If they get destroyed, I will replace them for you. Use Texas justice and blast a hole through her/them that a C-5 could fly through…and that is a serious hole.

          • Bottom Line says:

            Joe Horn = Texas justice

          • Do you know what happened after this? Nothing. Mr. Horn prevented a robbery and he was vindicated. Gotta love it….and, of course, I disagree with the dispatcher that says property is not worth killing someone over….sorry…if it is not their property and in the commission of a crime like this….they are dead. Pretty simple, actually.

            • They tried to claim that the shootings are racially motivated and that the Texas Castle Doctrine is racially motivated because it is a disparate impact on minorities and illegals. Both of the men he killed were in this country illegally and had been convicted before.

              So, let’s see…the Houston Grand Jury no billed him. The police did not arrest him. He shot two men after he witnessed them breaking into a house and coming back out. Texas has a deadly force law to protect private property of yourself and others. He called police and gave them every opportunity to get there in time. He confronts them first and then they run….at him….across his property….boom.

              And the minority community thinks it was racially motivated because it was two illegal immigrants stealing.

              We do take care of our own.

              • Bottom Line says:

                What he did was just.

                Joe Horn should get ‘The Neighbor Of The Year Award’.

                Those that argue racial motivation are in denial of the responsibility(and stupidity I might add) that lies with the criminals.

      • Wow -that really makes me mad-you should go buy some of those inexpensive flags at the store and put as many as you can in your yard and ask your neighbors who agree with you to do the same. If this woman vandalized your flags-she shouldn’t be able to get away with it-She should have to be “offended” times 20.

        • Cyndi P says:

          I like that idea, V. BL’s may be gratifying, but is probably more trouble than its worth, not to mention it would give ammo, in more ways than one 😉 , to the anti-gun crowd.

          BL,

          I do agree with you on everything else, though, you charmer!

          😛

          • Yea, I agree the thought is tempting -it’s a real B&*t^h when one has to be practical. 🙂

            • Cyndi P says:

              Hmmm, maybe we should just drink the Kool-Aid and be done with it? I mean, Utopia is on the way, just ask any Kool-Aid drinker! 😆

            • Practical? windage and elevation….squeeze but do not jerk the trigger…proper sight picture…take a breath..let one half of it out….you can’t miss. Buzzards gotta eat too.

          • Bottom Line says:

            Cyndi,

            While it might be gratifying, It’s not really about that.

            I can’t help but to listen to your voice of reason and consider that an outright ambush might not be necessary.

            Justifiable though.

            Perhaps a warning shot is in order.

            I see like this:

            One’s home is their sanctuary. Respect it. Everyone knows this. It is natural. Animals even know this. Trash does too.

            What was done to Judy is not only a personal attack on her patriotism and pride for her sons, it is an attack on her property and her freedom.

            All around wrong.

            I have little tolerance for people like that. They are so self righteous that they have no respect. It’s never about what’s right, but rather what they can get away with. I’ve dealt with their type. They aren’t gonna be reasoned with, and aren’t likely to be deterred by the law and a punishment of a fine or community service.

            What’s next? Are they gonna start breaking windows and stealing things. Spray paint the car? Start the house on fire? Are they packing heat when they come to vandalize? Are they on crack?

            Who knows?

            I say go with the precautionary principle and assume that since they are establishing a pattern of intrusion and destruction, that they mean no good.

            Fire a warning shot and if they don’t start running, don’t hesitate to let ’em have it.

            • Cyndi P says:

              Hey BL,

              “One’s home is their sanctuary. Respect it. Everyone knows this. It is natural. Animals even know this. Trash does too.”……I agree 100% I also understand that some people can’t take a hint and don’t hesitate to escalate. My experience has been that whenever I stand up for myself, I usually get squashed. With my luck, I’d end up in jail for a long time if tried what you suggest. I wouldn’t want to see Judy get put through the wringer. Of course, it would be wonderful if the government would protect the people who are defending themselves and their property instead of the rights of the criminals.

              • Bottom Line says:

                Cyndi – “My experience has been that whenever I stand up for myself, I usually get squashed.”

                BL – Yeah me too. I just keep getting up every time I’m knocked down. If I’m gonna get beat, they’re going to have to damn sure earn it.

                Cyndi – “With my luck, I’d end up in jail for a long time if tried what you suggest.”

                BL – Buy an unregistered throw-away self defense legal strategy gun. 😉

                Cyndi – “Of course, it would be wonderful if the government would protect the people who are defending themselves and their property instead of the rights of the criminals.”

                That statement says quite a bit. It disgusts me when I hear/see media headlines like… ‘Burgler Sues Resident For Gunshot Wound’.

                If I were a judge in that situation, I would throw it out of court accompanied with a simple statement to the plaintiff of “Don’t break into people’s homes, stupid. You’re liable to get shot”.

            • Bottom Line says:

              Ya know, all of this discussion about home protection got me to thinking of something that happened when I was a teen.

              At the time it was a rather ‘check yer underwear’ moment, but looking back on it, it’s a bit funny.

              Thought I’d share…

              A female friend called me with a dilema and a win/win propostion type solution.

              The dilema: She had a 12 pack of beer hidden in her room. And the following day was scheduled as mom and daughter spring cleaning her room day. She was grounded and couldn’t go anywhere to get rid of it.

              The proposition: I ride over to her house on my bike after her mom goes to sleep and take the beer through her window. I get beer for a 15 minute bike ride, she gets rid of a liability.

              Win/win indeed.

              Later(about 1:00 AM), I arrived on her street, hid my bike in some bushes and snuck up to the window.

              I tapped lightly to let her know I was there…wait…no response.

              I tapped again…wait…no response.

              Finally a third, and after a minute I see the blinds move a little. I was getting exited at the anticipation that in the next minute or so, I would have a 12 pack of beer in my hands.

              I’m sitting there in the bushes next to her window thinkin’ …”this is great, I’m about to get some brew”…

              The front door opens and a man with a shotgun steps out…

              And it’s not her dad?

              I ran accross the street REAL quick-like in a zig-zag pattern toward another house.

              If he could hit me, He still risks blowing the windows out of the neighbors house across the street. It’s the best thing I could come up with at the time. There was no cover and privacy fences take too long to climb.

              Imagine my surprise.

              Imagine his.

              Wrong house.

              Oops.

              I had only been there once, and there were about 4 of them that looked a bit similar.

              I picked the one two doors down from her.

              🙂

              • Aren’t you glad he was practical and didn’t just shoot you. 🙂 Would have been mighty expensive beer. HeHe

                Now in all seriousness, one has the right to protect their property and shooting someone is sometimes necessary. But unless the criminal is endangering the other persons life one really shouldn’t advise another person to shoot someone when they won’t be the one having to live with the consequences.

              • Bottom Line says:

                VH – “Aren’t you glad he was practical and didn’t just shoot you.”

                BL – Very…Which is why I think a warning shot is a good idea. It’s all about “necessary force”.

                I don’t think he ever even pointed his gun at me. (I didn’t stick around to watch.)

                He just wanted to be armed just in case, and show that he meant buisiness.

                VH – “Now in all seriousness, one has the right to protect their property and shooting someone is sometimes necessary”

                BL – I’ve never questioned his right to shoot me. I had absolutely no buisiness in his yard…I just mistakingly thought I did.

                For all he knew, I was some crackhead with a gun trying to break into his house for his jewelry.

                Stupidity could have got me killed.

                VH – “But unless the criminal is endangering the other persons life one really shouldn’t advise another person to shoot someone when they won’t be the one having to live with the consequences.”

                BL – I see your point. One can only really speak for themselves when confronted with such a situation. Objective opinions are kinda useless…I suspect Judy knows this.

          • When I am worried about using a gun due to potential secondary target or fueling anti-gun reactions, I just use a knife or an axe. Plus you get to look your opponent in the eye!

            Sorry, I have had too much rum and am violating my no drinking and blogging thing….

      • Common Man says:

        Judy;

        Invest in a game trails infared camera and post it on one of your flag poles. Make sure you get one that is infared so there is no flash when a picture is taken.

        You can buy them at almost any hunting stores like Bass Pro or Cabela’s for around $200.

        They will take pictures of anyone and anything coming within 8 or 10 feet of the flag poles. They can also be set to take a picture every few seconds so you would wind up with a series of offending criminals. You can then take the pictures to the local police and file a formal complaint.

        Oh, and make sure you don’t bend to this women and PUT THE FLAGS BACK UP!

        CM

        • Common Man says:

          Judy;

          Sorry I ment “Infrared”

          • Cyndi P says:

            Good idea on the infrared!

            • Judy Sabatini says:

              Well, I thank everybody for their suggestions, and I really appreciate it, but I think I’ll hold off on the ammo, have enough of that anyway.

              She is the neighborhood trouble maker and doesn’t like anything anybody does from hanging flags, to parking their Motor homes or trailers in the street, in front of their own house.

              My American flag will be put back up, and if she or anybody else says anything, well, they’re looking to get punched in the nose by me, well, not really, don’t want a lawsuit on my hands.

              CM, I don’t think I really need to go to that extreme and put up an infrared camera, but thanks for your suggestion on it.

              And, I will not bow down to anybody when it comes to my flags or showing my patriotism for this country, ever.

              • Cyndi P says:

                Get the cameras. It might not be her, but someone more dangerous…….

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                I guess we can always go check them out and see what they have. I’ve noticed too that sometimes when one or both of my son’s are at our house, when they leave, one or both of their cars will have eggs on them too. Not sure if it’s just some punk ass kids or what that just go by. Doesn’t happen to often, only once in a while.

              • Judy…where do you live?

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                Hey Col.

                I live in Reno Nevada, why?

              • Gun country….get one.

              • And let us know if you need backup, I am sure we can find kindred spirits in your area. Nothingk like a local group backing you at city hall, or in your area. The government is not protecting our rights anymore, so we have to do it ourselves.

                I am all about a government that protects the rights and freedoms of the people, but in the absense of one, we are stuck with using BF’s methods. Or if it comes to it, maybe more sever methods…

    • Bottom Line says:

      G.A. Rowe – “Can anyone tell me WHY this is happening in the United States of America?”

      Yes, It’s because we allow it.

      This incident is so wrong.

      1 – This the USA. We have a protection of the freedom of speech. If you wanna express your patriotism by wearing a flag T-shirt, then proudly do so on any day of the year that you choose.

      2 – This is the USA. We aren’t Mexico. While it is perfectly fine to celebrate Cinco de Mayo, it is absurd that anyone should have to yeild their patriotism to a foreign holiday.

      3 – This is the USA. I’d be willing to bet that there is a US flag hanging somewhere on school campus. Should the school have to take it down for Cinco de Mayo? Try telling the principle to take the flag down or get fired.

    • Chris Devine says:
  19. As Matt would say: This is USW’s test:

    If your end goal is anything but freedom, what do you think the chances are that you will be free?

  20. Ellen Spalding says:

    Well concerning the article I think it is crazy that it even happen. So if white students went on the trip, the black students are not going to be inspiried? I believe that MLK would have hated this as much as what was happening when he was alive. He wanted a place were color was a non issue, you dont see color.

    I read the flag tshirt story when a friend sent it to me from the local paper out there. That person should lose the position.

  21. Judy Sabatini says:

    Here is a an interview with a couple of the boys who were asked to either leave, take off their shirts and turn them inside out and what they said.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/07/tensions-high-california-high-school-following-flag-flap/

    • They just state “it’s just disrespectful to wear the American flag on their day” like it’s fact. So please someone explain to me WHY it is disrespectful because I don’t just accept it as fact. Why would it ever be disrespectful to wear the flag that symbolizes the country they are free to celebrate their day in.

  22. Judy Sabatini says:
  23. USWeapon says:

    To all

    I see that I have hit on an issue where I don’t believe that anyone is in agreement with the stance that I took in the article. I am absolutely thrilled to see that happen. As I wrote last night, I knew that I would be taken to task on some of what I wrote. In fact, I counted on it.

    Anita above at #19 hit on the main thing that I was really trying to pull out of the entire thing. In all honesty I could absolutely care less what happened in one Michigan school. But what I do care about is the fact that everyone, in their haste to denounce racism or discrimination, completely forgot about the fact that what I discussed primarily in my own comments was a failure to have the proper goal in mind.

    There is little debate as to whether discrimination in any form is right or wrong. We can all agree on that, I believe. Is discrimination what ended up happening in this case? You bet. And that is why the move was stupid. The reason I said that it wasn’t wrong, is because the principal had the right intention, even if his method was incorrect. Everyone discussing this incident made the entire focus about race. That is what is pervasive in every comment above. That, my friends, is proof positive that what I was saying is correct. We are far more concerned that no one gets discriminated against than we are that our children are educated. We are more concerned with cries of racism than we are with whether or not the children involved were inspired to learn. I can find mistakes galore with the tactic that this principal used. It was not inclusive. It created division. It was possibly illegal. But what he wanted to do was inspire children to learn, and THAT is the point. He was flawed in in tactic, but correct in his motive.

    In the end, it is not the job of our schools to make everything equal or fair. It is the job of our schools to educate our children. That is why my first question is whether there were other opportunities taken to inspire other students to succeed. That is an important question. As for teaching that color doesn’t matter, I agree with everyone, but I caution you to remember that the parents of children will have far more to do with that than any teacher or principal.

    There was mention, from Todd I believe, about the line where other children booed the students. That was also one of the most troubling things for me. Because children as a whole, don’t see color the way that adults do. They simply don’t care. They haven’t learned that race is an issue. So when I hear that a group of elementary students booed them, I point to the adults for this. Would this happen with 8 year olds unless adults had told them that it was wrong? Would eight year olds really even KNOW that this was exclusionary or racist?

    With this said, I sit back and wait for everyone to continue to skewer the position I put forth.

    USW

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      You’re right USW about racism in kids. I don’t think they care about color. I think racism is taught by the parents who are the racist and of course it reflects on the kids then.

      I was taught at an early age that color does not make the person, it’s what’s inside that person that makes them who they are. And, because of that,I think that’s why I’m not a racist person. Like I have said many times, I don’t care what color a person is, or what they’re nationality is, I don’t make judgments on anybody because of the race or where they came from or their color. If I like some one, it’s because of who they are, not what color they are. There shouldn’t be any race issue, and I thought the only race we have, is the human race. Isn’t that what matters, not the color a person is?

    • Cyndi P says:

      The road to Hell is paved with good intentions…just something to think about.

      🙂

    • USW, to repeat what I said last night;

      “It is my not so humble opinion that we need to teach our children that people of all colors, shapes, sizes, etc. etc., can and do succeed in ALL walks of life. All of those children should have been taken on that trip.”

      My point was about educating all the children, not about race. So to address your concerns; the principle taught racism to the rest of the children by excluding them from the trip because of their race. That is the reason they booed the black children, not because of what their parents taught them. Even though you support the principle because his goal was to teach, you need to understand that he was wrong because he only sought to teach those black children when his goal should have been to teach all the children. Therein lies the main problem with our flawed public school system.

      My sister-in-law is a teacher of special education children in Colorado at the second and third grade level. She teaches all her children at their individual learning level and speed. Her children are some of the most amazing kids I have ever seen. Children who have been “diagnosed” as mentally retarded have actually turned out to have an IQ off the charts – I know that both you and Black Flag can understand that – and those children excel in her classroom. She believes, as I now do, that we all learn at different rates and different speeds, yet most of our public school systems do not even attempt to teach those “different” children . . . they just ignore them, and in some cases actually do more harm than good. Like that principle in Michigan. That prejudicial experience will stay with those children for the rest of their lives, and who knows what will become of that selfish and self centered act by one unthinking and uncaring school principal!

      • USWeapon says:

        Really G.A.? Do you really believe that those 8 year old kids are booing because of the trip and that they figured out on their own that it was a racial discrimination thing? They are 8. If they see color, they learned that from adults.

        • Yes, they learned that from their ADULT teacher and principal.

          Do not sell 8 year old kids short. They see things a little different than we do, but their young minds are information sponges, and in this case the information sparked a response.

          • “learned that from their ADULT teacher and principal”

            Agree, one of my kids voted for Obama during school mock elections. He did not pick that up from home.
            It was difficult to explain to him at home, abortion being inappropriate for his age, gun banning did get his attention.

          • …. their ADULT teacher and principle

            So do you not see this as the root of the problem, G. A.??

            You leave the kids to be “developed” by strangers – people you do not know?

            You interview a employee or baby sitter with more scrutiny then you do a teacher, school or principle.

            Perhaps this is where you should investigate the failure of society…?

            Just a thought….

    • You are right in your analysis, USW, but I would like to point something out.

      You said: “Everyone discussing this incident made the entire focus about race.”

      Correct, but I believe everyone discussing this issue has clearly stated that race SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR in education.

      It is the job of our educators to educate our children, but racism can in no way help said education.

      I do tend to believe people latch on to cases like these because we are inundated by claims of racism by minorities and this is proof that no race is free from racism.

      By the way, racism IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS STORY. If there were no racism involved, there would be no controversy. So to be surprised (or not) by the discussion tending that way is a bit absurd.

      I do hope teachers including those at this school have the proper intent of educating without attempting to favor a certain people. I don’t know enough to make a judgement of their motives.

    • USW…did I pass?

      BTW..the booing was more likely because they did not get out of school….not the why.

    • Good intentions do not remove the stigma of reverse racism.

      A private group funding an outing should be able to offer it to those it wishes, as it’s a gift, their money, let them spend it on who they want. But they acted through a public school, and their good intended event was racial.

      How many kids dream of becoming a “rocket scientist”? How many at that school? How many had the math and science skills to even be able to try to reach such a position? And how many were excluded because they were not dark skinned?

      I think the principal made a mistake in how this was done, but is not something worthy of punishment. Good intentions should count more than PC
      bulldookey(beer tip Epsom). I think more good could have been done with including some other races, especially children that might have been inspired to pursue rockets instead of computers.

      And so, USW, I agree, you did not slip. A good and fair article, exploring
      as many sides as will fit. But it brings up the question, are their any absolutes? The principal’s actions were racist. The group that sponsored the event wished to help blacks only. What if the KKK were to sponsor a white only “rocket science” speech by a white rocket scientist? This was just a poor attempt to addressed the symptom, not the cause. How many of those students, black and other, were from single parent (mother) households? How many live in housing projects, where their role-model is the pimp or drug dealer they come home to, in their parking lot, buying them ice cream? Why be a rocket scientist, making chump change, when you can deal, or maybe rap, or play ball?

      In today’s world, racism is not an absolute. In reality, it should be, but mankind is very good at seeing what they want, when they want. Is freedom an absolute? Same answer, should be, could be, but it’s not. I give the principal and the sponsor a “fail”, but admit, they at least tried something, which means more than anything else.

      • Cyndi P says:

        I’d like to point out that there is no longer much of a space program. Thanks Hope-N-Change! What will all these new ‘rocket scientists’ do? Go to India??????

        Yep, I’m still steaming about the space programs being cut back to irrevalence.

        • I wonder if this will be worsened by the gov. takeover of school loans. Think I read something about approval/rejection being tied to their major, favoring humanities and discriminating against those who intended to make money.

          • Cyndi P says:

            I’m waiting to see if that’s the case. My daughter is attending Ol’Miss and is studying Bio-Medical Engineering. She’s applied for her loan. I’m waiting to see if she gets it. She has a couple of things working against her, one, she’s white, two, she comes from the middle class, and three, the degree program isn’t some stupid liberal arts crap. The only thing in her favor is that she’s not a he. She’s aware of the anti-white component of American life. She asked if she has enough hispanic blood in her to be able to claim ‘hispanic’. I had to tell her I didn’t think so. I don’t remember seeing anything that says having a hispanic grandparent makes you hispanic. She was pretty bummed. She knows whites are in the cross hairs. Too bad she didn’t take her Spanish classes seriously, she might have been able to pull it off. When I was in the Army, there was a girl in my basic training unit. She had a little trouble making the mark. She was white with a hispanic name. She was held back but showed up it Ft Lee a few weeks after me. At Ft Dix, she spoke perfect English, at Ft Lee, she barely spoke English at all but fluent Spanish! She pretended not to understand a lot of instructions. She knew I knew and avoided me like the plague, LOL! I wasn’t impressed by her behavior at all. That was back when I was young and dumb and thought that hard work, honesty, integrity, etc., actually got you where you wanted to be in life. I know better now…..

        • IF there was real freedom here, the space program would still get cut, but the private sector would take it to new levels. What we have instead is the state cutting the few things that might have been positive side effects to government spending, ensuring that there will only be bad results. As far as I am concerned, that just hastens the end. At this point, maybe that is for the best.

          “when the lights of New York go out, we will know that our job is done.”

    • No, its not the race thing, altho I do think it is wrong for a public institution to engage in racist activity. It is the fact that the idea that there should be a “closing of the gap” in grades for a certain race. What in fact should have happened would be a closing of the gap for the lower grades, thus the persons allowed to go would be going based on grades. If there is a reason to “teach” a lesson race or culture, it would be good for all students to go see a back scientist, instead of a black rap artist or athlete, just to combat the stigma, but I simply do not think that is the role of a government school, and to assume that kids need to even see that is somewhat of indication that the teachers need the lesson, because, for the most part, the kids already get it.

      So its wrong that the goal is what it is too. That principle has no business doing what he is doing, there is no reason to have the goal of catching up one race to another, at least not by “inspiration” that ends up with animosity by other students and does not do anything in the long run to fix the so-called issue. The fact that there is a discrepency is an issue, but it is far out of the scope of the public schools to fix it, the best thing they could do would be to stop highlighting the issue.

      I won’t say the principle did not have good intentions, maybe his intentions are not wrong. His actions, however, are wrong, simply because they have results that were not good. If I do something that is so stupid it that it does damage, it is still wrong. If I drink and drive, for instance, and I hurt someone, then that is stupid, but because it results in violence, it is wrong. Stupid is not always wrong. If I drink and end up with some picture of me on the internet passed out with makeup or some other practical joke done on me, that is not wrong. In fact, its pretty damned funny. Stupid is not always wrong, but in this case, I still think it is.

      • I have to say your comments make a lot of sense and I agree -I have a hard time separating the freedom that we should have as individuals or groups in the private sector with the limits that have to be imposed when talking about governmental institutions. How about we just take the government out of our school systems. Then I wouldn’t be confused-the local people who’s children go to these schools could decide what is best for their own children.

  24. Maybe that’s the point we should learn from this type of thing-equal doesn’t necessarily mean everything has to be the exact same. All our political correctness has brought us to a point where equal has to mean everyone gets the exact same treatment-not just equal treatment. But I also think it’s important that because of the screams of discrimination and racism that people must point out the hypocracy that is running our country when it rears it’s ugly head. If we don’t than real discrimination will just get stronger under the banner of it’s only fair because of whatever reason is in fashion.

  25. Judy Sabatini says:

    I thought some Friday night humor was in order. Enjoy!

    1. A man comes into the ER and yells . . .’
    My wife’s going to have her baby in the cab.’
    I grabbed my stuff, rushed out to the cab, lifted the lady’s
    dress and began to take off her underwear.
    Suddenly I noticed that there were several cabs – – –
    and I was in the wrong one.

    Submitted by Dr. Mark MacDonald,
    San Francisco

    2. At the beginning of my shift
    I placed a stethoscope on an elderly
    and slightly deaf female patient’s anterior chest wall.

    ‘Big breaths,’. . . I instructed.
    ‘Yes, they used to be,’. . .replied the patient.

    Submitted by Dr. Richard Byrnes,
    Seattle , WA

    3. One day I had to be the bearer of bad
    news when I told a wife that her husband had
    died of a massive myocardial infarct.

    Not more than five minutes later, I heard her
    reporting to the rest of the family that he had
    died of a ‘massive internal fart.’

    Submitted by Dr. Susan Steinberg

    4. During a patient’s two week follow-up
    appointment with his cardiologist, he informed
    me, his doctor, that he was having trouble with
    one of his medications..
    ‘ Which one ?’. . . I asked. ‘The patch…
    The Nurse told me to put on a new one every six hours and now I’m running out of places to put it !’
    I had him quickly undress and discovered what I hoped I wouldn’t see. Yes, the man had over fifty patches on his body!

    Now, the instructions include removal of
    the old patch before applying a new one.

    Submitted by Dr. Rebecca St. Clair,
    Norfolk , VA

    5. While acquainting myself with a new elderly patient,
    I asked, ‘How long have you been bedridden?’
    After a look of complete confusion she answered . .
    ‘ Why, not for about twenty years – when my husband was alive.’

    Submitted by Dr. Steven Swanson-
    Corvallis , OR

    6. I was performing rounds at the
    hospital one morning and while checking
    up on a man I asked . . .’ So how’s your
    breakfast this morning?’ ‘ It’s very good
    except for the Kentucky Jelly. I can’t seem
    to get used to the taste.’. . . Bob replied.
    I then asked to see the jelly and Bob produced
    a foil packet labeled ‘KY Jelly.’

    Submitted by Dr. Leonard Kransdorf,
    Detroit ,

    7. A nurse was on duty in the Emergency Room
    when a young woman with purple hair styled
    into a punk rocker Mohawk, sporting a variety
    of tattoos, and wearing strange clothing,
    entered . . . It was quickly determined that
    the patient had acute appendicitis, so she was
    scheduled for immediate surgery.. When she was completely disrobed on the operating
    table, the staff noticed that her pubic hair had
    been dyed green and above it there was a
    tattoo that read . . .’ Keep off the grass.’

    Once the surgery was completed, the surgeon
    wrote a short note on the patient’s dressing,
    which said ‘Sorry . . . had to mow the lawn.’

    Submitted by RN no name

    AND FINALLY!! ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    8 As a new, young MD doing his residency in OB.
    I was quite embarrassed when performing female
    pelvic exams… To cover my embarrassment
    I had unconsciously formed a habit of whistling softly.
    The middle-aged lady upon whom I was performing this exam suddenly burst out laughing
    and further embarrassing me.
    I looked up from my work and sheepishly said. . .
    ‘I’m sorry. Was I tickling you?’
    She replied with tears running down
    her cheeks from laughing so hard . . .

    ‘No doctor but the song you were whistling was . . .
    ‘I wish I was an Oscar Meyer Wiener.’ ‘

    Dr. wouldn’t submit his name.

  26. Number 8 is funny.

  27. Cyndi P says:

    For my two VERY charming SUFA men……. (gee, I love to flirt) 😉

    (Flirting is down now)

    I like the reader commnets, too.

    http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/96713-white-house-doesnt-rule
    -out-sabotage-in-market-fluctuation

    Yes, it makes you wonder if the same thing happened in the fall of 2008.
    The timing was just perfect to propel Obama into the spotlight to save
    us all. A little too perfect.
    BY ann r on 05/07/2010 at 15:52

    An Oil Rig blows up and no one suggests sabotage? Give me a break.
    BY Charles Ambrogio on 05/07/2010 at 15:51

    • Cyndi P says:

      grrrr….done now.

    • Great comments.

    • Bottom Line says:

      Hey sweetums, 😉

      How’d that go? …Don’t let a good crisis go to waste?

      Is there socialist/fascist solution comming to the aid of our econo-sabatage problem?

      • Cyndi P says:

        “Hey sweetums” – I love it! Thanks sugar muffin! 😉

        Sweetums and Sugar muffin, ha! Do I hear the chorus of “GET A ROOM!!!!”?

        On a serious note though, I fear that may be just the plan, with the primary target being those racist conservative, teabagging, racists. I fear for America had her people.

        • I am shaking my head at you two….the head shaking is usually reserved for Mathius’ responses!

          Remember, we will be having a SUFA reunion someday and we will all have to own our blogging words. Now I’ll have D13 beside me and I’ll be looking very young and chic since I’ll have visited him several times by then at his specialty shop. That Michigan hussy won’t stand a chance!

          • Cyndi P says:

            Michigan hussy! ROTFLMAO!!!!

            Take THAT Anita. GIRL FIGHT!!!

            Step right up Gentlemen! I’m selling tickets for $20 each, $30 for ringside! Get ’em while they’re hot! Sugar muffins will be selling beer and cigars!

            How’s that for a free market capitalist? 😉

            • WHAT THE HELL IS GOIN ON AROUND HERE ?????

              I do my mom job faithfully and get kicked around behind my back.

              That’s ok Cyndi I ain’t afraid of that Wisconsin cottage cheesehead, as long as I can lose a few first before the reunion!

              Now as far as you and BL.. I’m am with what’s her name.

              Gag me… and yes get a room

              Poor G-Man!

              ROTFLMAO !!!

              • What’s this “poor G-Man” thing? I’m alive and kickin. And I can still do some really good kickin!

                G!

              • G-Man: shhhhhh! I got your back dangit! Although for some reason I think I could just step back and let the three of you just take care of biz.

                I have what’s her name to worry about !

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                Sounds like a party going on here. How you guys doing?

              • Cyndi & BL started wispering sweet nothings which got SOMEBODY fired up which got me fired up so I drug G into it.

                That’s all

              • Cyndi P says:

                ALRIGHT!!!! I’m gettin’ the plastic sheeting and scented body-oil! Its a two-n-one FREE FOR ALL in the ring! Thongs only! :mrgreen:

                Ticket prices are now $50 bucks ringside!

                WHOO-HOOO. I LOVE capitalism!

              • Can I watch?

              • Cyndi P says:

                HELL NO YOU CAIN’T WATCH!

                I’ve got you in the ring with G-Man and Kathy, LOL! What color thong do you want? Black oR blue, ROTHFLMAO!!

                D13 will bestow a ribbon to the winning female. If G-Man wins, well, hmmm….I guess the good Col. will have to figure out some sort of prize for him, maybe something any man would be proud to show off to his friends.

                AAAAnd in this corner, we have G-Man, a manly real man, whose testosterone can be smelled from thousands of miles away on a smll coral atoll in the Pacific. In another corner, we Miss Kathy, the Wisconsin Cheesehead, ficontesting first in line status for the attentions of D13. And last but not least, we have Madame Anita, the Michigan Hussy from Hell, determined to “get ‘er man”. LET THE GAMES BEGIIIIINNN!!!!!!

              • OK, I’m not up to speed here, apparently, what have ya’ll got me into? 🙂

              • Well it looks like you and BL will be gettin it on with some slick Cyndi..

                Sorry USW.. They started it

                🙂

              • I’ll reply at the bottom, too squishy up here!

              • Cyndi P says:

                No, no. She’s got it all wrong. You’re in the ring with Anita and Kathy.

                But I’m thinking I just might like a round with G-Man and BL! I just love REAL MEN!!

                😈

              • Oh snap !

                Now see. I didn’t even think of that angle yet.

                🙂 🙂

                hmmmmm

          • D13:

            Could you PLEASE weigh in here

            Thank You sweetheart.

      • Bottom Line says:

        You ladies crack me up. My belly is cramping.

        Should we order a swimming pool and a couple thousand gallons/pounds of jello?

        I bet tickets would sell for a little more.

        :))

        • Cyndi P says:

          There he is!!! There’s my Sugar Muffin! 🙂

          You’re gonna have to hold down the fort for awhile. I’m sopposed to meet up with my sugar bear (libtard variety) so we can go to the beach. I can’t really tell him I’d rather fool around with some guys on the internet. Seems his ex wife dumped him for some guy she met through the internet. Sugarbear is a libtard, but he’s good to me, so I’d better guess my ass out there. Besides, I don’t want to be here when Daddy Weapon finds out what us kids have been up to while he’s at work, LOL!

          🙂

          • We’ll be the ones paddling in like the Clampets. Go get him Sister 🙂

            • Bottom Line says:

              I’m not sue what “paddling in like the clampets” is, but it sure sounds like fun…so long as I don’t have to wear a thong.

          • Bottom Line says:

            Oh that’s right, I have competition. Am I gonna have to travel half way across the earth and sweep you off of your feet – defend your honor?.

            Be patient sweetums, I’ll come for you.

            😉

            • Fear not BL, the Libs turn and run at the first sign of intelligent competition 😆

              • Cyndi P says:

                I dunno G-Man. This one isn’t your typical Lib. One, he’s a degreed engineer, and he can acutally do stuff. He lives his life like any smart Conservative does. He understands human nature and how the world works. Its really confusing for me. He went to college in the late 60s, early 70s. I guess that’s where he got confused. I keep telling him to come out of the closet, but he just won’t listen. 🙂

            • Cyndi P says:

              Buy for my birthday this month, those 21k gold peacock earrings that I’ve been eye-balling, and I just might make it worth your while, sugar muffin! 8)

              Oh, and you’ll need a sailboat, too…..

              Fear not, your politics will give you extra points!

              😛

              • Bottom Line says:

                Sweetums –

                “Buy…gold…sailboat”

                “Fear not, your politics will give you extra points!”

                Sugar muffin – Lol Sweetums, you’ve got it backwards and just don’t know it yet.

                I got sumpthin’ multiple times better than sailboats and gold. It doesn’t require an engineering degree, and it has absolutely nothing to do with politics.

                Once is all it takes…You’ll be back.

                🙂

              • Cyndi P says:

                Oh my! Now you’ve made me blush!!!!

                😳

                That’s pretty impressive since I’ve been known to make sailors blush… 😉

                You get 20 Kwajalein Hussy points.

                Still blushing….

                😳 😳

  28. Judy Sabatini says:

    Going for the night, and if I don’t see any of you on here tomorrow, I want to take this opportunity to wish all mother’s here a very Happy Mother’s Day on Sunday, and to the guys, please tell your wives to have a wonderful Mother’s Day and hope they will have a wonderful day with the ones they love.

    Good night and have a great weekend.

    Take care everybody

    Always and forever

    Judy

  29. Happy Mother’s Day to all you mothers out there…….

    🙂

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      Good morning Colonel

      Thank you for the Mother’s Day wish, much appreciated.

      Now to answer you, we have plenty in the house, all loaded and ready to go, just in case. And thank you for your concern, as always, that too is much appreciated.

      Have a great day today.

      Take care

      Judy

  30. Good Morning! 🙂

    A short story from last evening that you may find comical, at least I do. While sharing some cold one’s with a relative in the garage, a large European Mastive, owned by a neighbor down the street was running loose again. This dog is somewhat aggressive, and there are many kids on the street. My next door neighbor said that she had called the cops almost 45 minutes ago, and well, no cops yet.

    I remembered a story I read in an e-mail about an elderly guy whose shed was being broken into, and decided to use his method of getting some action. I called 911, gave my name, address, description of the dog and then made a very simple statement. I said “Ma’am, I’m carrying a gun and I will shoot this dog if he threatens anyone”. 4 minutes later, we had 3 cruisers and a K-9 unit in front of the house!

    The dog was controlled by the owner, who received a citation, and made a very big apology to my neighbor. The police, never said a word to me, and everything was peaceful for the rest of the evening (which I had much fun 🙂 ).

    Think about this if your local cops seem a little bit slow in responding. And on a side note, I had a scanner on, and they were NOT busy at the time.

    Peace!

    G!

    • Bottom Line says:

      Sup G,

      Reminds me of a story of my childhood where my next door neighbor’s dog got loose…

      It was a St. Bernard that was so large that it had to have a small shed for a dog house. I’m talking HUGE. It was very friendly. Gentle giant – Loved kids.

      It was hilarious watching the reaction of the neighbors. Adults and children alike were going into their houses. The dog was trotting toward children playing in their front yard in hopes of playing with them. They just freaked out and ran inside.

      I was trailing behind running after the dog. I knew it was harmless and already quite familiar with me. I finally caught up with it and took it home. The dog didn’t even resist. I think he was over his ‘liberty call’ and disappointed that no one would play with him.

      G-man – “My next door neighbor said that she had called the cops almost 45 minutes ago, and well, no cops yet.”

      – “I called 911, gave my name, address, description of the dog and then made a very simple statement. I said “Ma’am, I’m carrying a gun and I will shoot this dog if he threatens anyone”. 4 minutes later, we had 3 cruisers and a K-9 unit in front of the house!”

      – “I had a scanner on, and they were NOT busy at the time.”

      BL – Four minutes away with nothing to do. Who cares about the potential threat of an aggressive dog, but god forbid that you protect your community yourself.

      Kinda lit a fire under their asses. hehe.

      • How’s it going BL

        It’s amazing how fast things get done when the perceived threat of flying lead exists. Fortunately, all ended well, and we got a good laugh to boot. I was surprised that the cops never came up to me to discuss things, but most of them know me (in a good way:) ) and figured things were under control.

        I laugh at the thought of doughnuts flying out the windows and hot coffee hittin the crotch HEHE! G.A. Rowe will not like this thought LOL!

        Hope all is well with you today!

        G!

        • Bottom Line says:

          All is well, and hoping the same for you of course. Been kinda chill for a few days.

          G-Man – “I laugh at the thought of doughnuts flying out the windows and hot coffee hittin the crotch HEHE! G.A. Rowe will not like this thought LOL!”

          There is a reason why that is a common joke. How many times have you seen a squad car parked at a gas station or the like for hours at a time? – The cop being more worried about flirting with the cashier than anything else.

          In all fairness, So long as they are properly dispersed throughout the patrol grid and in a stand-by position, it doesn’t really matter much in terms of response time. They just have to be within ear shot of their radio. I’m sure you already know this, …just sayin’.

          Of course sitting there in the car listening over the radio to a situation and saying “ahh phukit” is another thing.

  31. @BF….and waaaay off topic but too long to Tuesday…

    IMF….should we be part of it in your opinion? I was watching a program this morning where Europe is clamoring for the US to put in more money to prop the Euro despite our problems….that makes no sense to me. I am a proponent of opting out or reducing our funding to equal levels.

    Thoughts? It appears that the USD is still more respected than anything else.

    • I was wondering about this as well, D13.

      My quick answer is no way should we be essentially bailing out other countries. We are broke.

      • For real. We’re doing a fine job burying ourselves at the moment. You can’t get out of the hole until you QUIT DIGGING !! 👿

    • Prospective from another site:

      “In essence, we will borrow money to give to Greece in order to fix the problems they created … by borrowing too much money. Only in the public sectors does that kind of idea make any sense at all. On top of that, the US and the EU want Greece to impose badly-needed austerity measures and downsize its public sector as a condition of receiving the money, when in fact the US and the EU need to adopt those measures themselves before giving the money.

      We’re sending fantasy dollars to rescue fantasy euros. It’s a big Ponzi scheme. And it seems very likely that we’ll be the suckers left holding the bag at the end of this one.”

  32. Mike Madison and the spokeswoman for the school district must be dim, imo. This sounds somewhat like the CA cinco de mayo situation in its neglect to notice that we are in America and have been for some time. Any other rationale is to say the least…nutty. And these people are being paid?

  33. TexasChem says:

    I disagree with your viewpoint her USW.I do not believe it possible to inspire one by pointing out racial differences amongst the students.All he accomplished in my opinion was to further a divide amongst white and black students.

    This country was founded with many societies various cultural input.Over the years many different social identities melded into one to form an “American”.That identity today is being taken away by a sub-culture hell bent upon forcing their views of society upon all of us.Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe, our problem now is that the fringe has usurped control.

    If you teach differences there will continue to exist differences.With the attacks upon our culture today from the left…and I do mean attacks: attacks upon christianity,attacks upon moral fortitude,attacks using politically correct behavior,attacks to further negative Islamic influence, hell… even attacks upon the boyscouts; our moral social decline had led to freedom having the meaning to some of you to do whatever the hell you want no matter the consequences.

    We need a movement within our society to improve our ethics and morality.We need a cultural identifier for everyone in America.The problem is we all bicker amongst ourselves to determine where that moral base should originate from and all you really need to do to determine that is research our founding fathers papers to figure that one out.

    Americanism is a question of principle, of purpose, of idealism, and character; it is not a matter of birthplace or creed or line of descent.

    • Alright, Tex! I Hearby nominate JAC to lead the morality movement! Anyone second the motion?

    • A Puritan Descendant says:

      “We need a movement within our society to improve our ethics and morality.We need a cultural identifier for everyone in America.The problem is we all bicker amongst ourselves to determine where that moral base should originate from and all you really need to do to determine that is research our founding fathers papers to figure that one out.”

      Simple yes, but how?

      I fear it is far to late. It seems to many today have little respect for our founding papers. Many see our founding fathers as criminal. Schools are teaching today’s politically correct history. Immigrants may arrive to improve their lives, but I doubt very many have much knowledge or even care about papers written over 200 years ago. Many American citizens know little of our nation’s founding and are not likely to learn it in school.

      • PD said: I fear it is far to late.

        G! says: I have an ethical problem, it’s my problem, nobody elses. My problem is that I refuse to quit, ever! Despite our differences on many fronts, we can agree that one thing should lead our collective efforts, that one thing is Liberty. To live free of coersion and tyranny, to stand tall against overwhelming odds and tell those that oppose Liberty that we will not go away, we will not stop fighting your theft and slavery, we will, come together for a single purpose, put aside our petty differences and in the name of Liberty, we WILL kick their asses.

        That is the message that needs to be said, and said loudly and clearly. Violence is not needed, strong willpower and a “no quit” attitude can defeat the worst of enemies.

        Peace!

        G!

        • A Puritan Descendant says:

          I will meet you at the Alamo!

        • I am with you. Any friend of freedom is a friend of mine, regardless of any other differences. Our founding fathers did not have the whole philosophy of the country figured out before the war. They wrote the Declaration, but not the Constitution, when the war for liberty was fought. I can put aside the philosophical details and stand beside all those seeking a return of liberty.

          • A Puritan Descendant says:

            Jon said >

            “I can put aside the philosophical details and stand beside all those seeking a return of liberty.”

            I guess even Nancy Pelosi who said the following about healthcare reform, will be standing beside you 🙂

            Nancy said > “We will honor the vows of our founders, who in the Declaration of Independence said that we are “endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” This legislation will lead to healthier lives, more liberty to pursue hopes and dreams and happiness for the American people. This is an American proposal that honors the traditions of our country.”

            • A Puritan Descendant says:

              And don’t forget she also said people could pursue the Arts while others supplied the healthcare.

            • Let me be more clear. I do not mean that I can put aside philosophy, just the details. And I stand beside those who seek a return of liberty, not liars who use the right words to try to convince people that love freedom. Talk is cheap. Blood is not.

  34. It’s a little slow today, and the weather here stinks. So here’s is one of the best live musical performances that I have witnessed. I saw this band in 1987 and 1994 in old Cleveland Stadium and it was awesome.

    • Bottom Line says:

      Saw them on the same tour in ’94. Hoosier Dome – Indianapolis

      Excellent show!

  35. CP, Anita, Kathy, BL, and Judy too!

    As an opened minded person, fun loving, and willing to try new things, it will be a long cold snowy day in hell before my ass is fitted with a thong :). I can handle the scented oil though 😆

    RLMAO!

    G!

    • Cyndi P says:

      Hey there you Stud,

      They sell the big sizes over at the fatty store. No excuses. SUIT UP!!!!

      Here honey, let me grease your back for ya… 😉

      • You damn Kwajawhatever hussy

        • Cyndi P says:

          That’s me!!!!

          What have you got a against a little butt floss? 😉

          • Cuz it ends up with booty paste on it

            OMG we’re all gonna get kicked off tonight !

            • You girls are killing me 🙂 Maybe I should find a music video to calm everyone down, my ribs are really hurtin now 😆

            • That never happens to me. Thongs are an aquired comfort.
              Sorry I missed this conversation last night, I was deep into some rum. Actually, not that deep, but it felt like it. I don’t drink that much anymore so it don’t take that much, lol

              • I missed the conversation too but I must disagree with you here-Thongs are a lot of things but comfortable they are not 🙂

              • For certain things they are, they give the support of briefs and the open feeling/cooler temperature of commando. I like them for running distance. Less chafing, less sweating, and less, um, bouncing.

                Ok, this is starting to seem like its a bit TMI…

              • Maybe enough said on this subject. But I definitely have a mental picture I didn’t have before.
                😆

              • hmmmmm… me too V.. Was hoping you would hear all the fun last night and join in.

                I see that female from Wisconsin who started it all layed low also

                🙂 🙂

      • Fatty store? To put a vision into ones mind, I’m 6’2″ tall, 190 lbs, 33 in waist, with long red hair down to the middle of my back. I can send pictures to prove it too! So no more fatty store stuff, I don’t wear tents 😆 or thongs 🙂

        • Cyndi P says:

          That’s right! I think I remember you saying something about going commando…..ooohh baby. I need for a picture, I have a porographic mind…

          😈

        • What is it about freedom lovers and long hair…I got a ponytail almost to mid-back as well…

          • Jon: You’re going to get Cyndi fired up again.. Thongs & long hair seem to get her riled…. we shall see…

            • Cyndi P says:

              Ooohh, yeah. Real men, with conservative views and long beautiful hair. Mmmmmm, mmmm, mmmm!

              I can see the studs now, wearing whatever makes their respective neither regions most comfortable….

              No shirt, and emerging on the white sandy beach at sunset, the orange and red rays of light illuminating their rippling muscles and sexy locks. They are smiling as the approach the SUFA Gyrrls, who await the studly real men with cool drinks and bottle of coconut oil. The SUFA men position themselves; one in front of each SUFA woman. He looks into her eyes and smiles warmly, gazing into her soul. She hands him his cool one. Then he turns around so that she may admire his rippling glory of a backside; the lovely locks dripping with water and sex appeal, down the middle of his well muscled core. She pours some oil into the palm of her hand, rubbing them together in preparation. She smiles, and exchanges knowing glances with the other SUFA Gyrrls. Each Gyrrl, reaches forward, toward her glorious man. He smiles. She smiles, and she rubs. And rubs, and rubs. The sun gets lower on the horizon. It’ll be dark soon……..

              Okay, you Michigan Hussy, how’s that? 8)
              I don’t know about you but I’m ready for a cold shower. Or BL 😉

              • JIMINY CRICKETS! Are you done drooling yet? I need a hand over here fellas! Anyone dare to settle this female down!?

              • Yes Anita, I can help!

                You see, when a man hits the early 30’s things change somewhat. In reverse of gravity, a man’s butt suddenly shifts to the midsection. So, after about 35, a thong on a man should be a string tied to the neck, down over the belly button, and tied. Which is equally uncomfortable (if not more so) but results in the same picture 😆

                Anything else dear?

              • Cyndi P says:

                Buzz killer….

                😦

              • I was tryin to be funny! 🙂

                But is it true?

              • Well now I’m confused. So It’s tied to you neck and what else?

              • Think…Boa Constrictor

              • Ok.. my sides are still sore from last night. I hesitate to ask but does that boa constrictor fit in…..never mind..I’m not even going there
                🙂

              • Cyndi P says:

                LOL! What’s amatter you? Don’t you like my creative write, trashy romance novel style?????

                And no, I still have lots of drool left!

                😉

              • Well I have been wondering who you have me in front of?

              • Cyndi P says:

                Well, I definately see Kathy with D13, (who btw, seems to be awol on the fantasy here), while you and I will have to flip a coin for G-Man and BL. They’re both equally appealing, so I can’t decide. Either one is great so far as I’m concerned, thought that BL sounds a little racy to me! (hello pot, this is kettle 😉 )

              • I have a truce with Kathy today. So I can’t go there. Me & BL have something in common so that sounds logical. Now Jon is lurking tonight so that is an option but I don’t think his woman would appreciate that. So that leaves you and G.

              • Yes, I am definatley not in the running for any of this. I already have my fantasy girl.

              • Woah, easy there Jane Austin, this is SUFA, not literotica, lol. 😛

              • She can’t help it at the moment Jon. Tourets has already taken over

              • Cyndi P says:

                okay, Pops…

                :mrgreen:

              • Pops! ROFLMAO. 😀

          • Bottom Line says:

            I have one of those too, only it’s a little longer.

            I’m not really a fan of long hair because it’s a pain in the ass and not at all conveinient for my occupation. I can’t wait to shave this stuff off.

            I’m doing it for charity. Somewhere there is a little girl who can’t grow hair of her own.

            I don’t have money to give, but I can give.

    • Judy Sabatini says:

      Hey, all I did was ask if there was a party going on, I didn’t say anything about thing wearing. I came to this party late, was gone all day. LOL!

    • You & me both G. I’d just rather go in my birthday suit than to have a string up my um… behind!

      • Despite my ribs hurting from the constant laughter, I still can’t figure out how I ended up in this conversation, muuch less a damn thong 🙂

        • Bottom Line says:

          Yeah G,

          Tonight is a very interesting night at SUFA. I have been cracking up.

          I just had to call her “sweetums”.

  36. Judy Sabatini says:

    Okay, guess I’m out for the night. You gals have a great Mother’s Day tomorrow.

    Have a good rest of the night, and keep it clean here. Don’t want to get in trouble for not doing the job I was assigned to here. 😀

    Good night and God Bless

  37. Ladies of SUFA

    I want to wish you all the happiest of Mothers Days tomorrow. The sun is setting with orange and pink dancing off the the dark clouds, rolling across the snow covered mountains. There is a bright white hot glow where the sun is hidden but not blocked. A cool breeze is blowing in from the northwest. The meadowlark nesting in the field behind my house is singing her good night song.

    May the sun shine upon your path and the wind be at your back.
    Bless you all for what you bring to mankind.

    Biggest of Hugs to You All
    JAC

  38. Happy Mother’s Day to all the great SUFA ladies who read and post here! 🙂 This site would not be the same without your opinion and especailly the sence of humor that keep things moving along with needed laughter.

    Peace and Live Free!

    G!

  39. TexasChem says:

    Here is an example of the attacks I mentioned in an above post.This is getting ridiculously out of hand people.It’s time to stand up and say enough is enough.I for one have had it with what is going on in America today.I worry about what kind of world my children are going to inherit from this lost generation of Americans that can’t seem to draw a line in the sand.

    Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.-Teddy Roosevelt

    The first requisite of a good citizen in this republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight.-Teddy Roosevelt

    We can have no “50-50” allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
    -Theodore Roosevelt

    There are no easy answers’ but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.
    They say the world has become too complex for simple answers. They are wrong.
    When you can’t make them see the light, make them feel the heat.-Ronald Reagan

    • TexasChem says:

      Well, heres the video.Meant to post it above.

      • TexasChem says:

        BLEH gehh ahh.

        • If I hadn’t already thought closing our borders was a good idea I would after listening to this man-Actually he would be one of the first I would like to throw on the other side of it-if he hates capitalism so much he shouldn’t mind leaving.

          • Bottom Line says:

            You Racist!

            He is just a poor immigrant trying to come here for a better life, to feed his family and escape the turmoil in Mexico.

            😉

    • TexasChem, Good Morning sir!

      Your video link did not show up, but I did here something on the news this morning. I haven’t said much on the illegal immigration issue, but my feelings are simple. Most of our ancestors, not including Native Americans, came across the big pond and became citizens by working within the laws and rules of the time. I’m not against immigration, however, if our ancestors can do it within the established laws, then it is good enough for everyone else.

      Maybe this can add some muster to the actions in AZ:

      The Valley of Haters!May 5, 2010 – 11:51 ET
      By Darrell Ankarlo

      Darrell Ankarlo is a 32 year broadcast veteran and author of two
      books: What Went Wrong with America and How to Fix it and Another
      Man’s Sombrero. Find out more at http://www.ankarlo.net. “We’ll bring you to
      your knees!”
      “Bigots…haters!”
      “We’ll put a million people in the streets.”
      “When we’re through with you, Arizona will be bankrupt!”
      Just a few of the threats and vicious words I’ve heard from the
      innocent and loving protesters upset that our state dared to act on an
      issue that has made one of our cities (Phoenix) the number one kidnap
      capitol in the country and number two in the world! We have militia
      from a foreign country engaged in shootouts with police a few miles
      from my home and close to a million “undocumented people” shutting
      down hospitals and nearly collapsing our welfare system. In fact as I
      write this, five illegal aliens just ambushed a police officer an hour
      from my home. They used AK47s. Imagine this on your culdusak…it may
      be coming.
      Arizona is all over the news because finally our state says “enough is
      enough” and has stopped waiting for the federal government to do
      something we all know it won’t do. I mean, come on, those supposed
      “representatives of the people” knew about and allowed Wall Street to
      come within inches of bankrupting America. Can we really expect them
      to address their open door policy to modern day slavery?
      In Arizona, for example, a brick layer used to make close to $20 an
      hour. Now he’s lucky to make $9 or $10 an hour because illegal
      aliens—usually working in groups—offer to beat any price. Many
      contractors have been paying illegal laborers $4 or $5 an hour
      under-the-table which pushes U.S. employees out of their jobs at an
      alarming rate. And, more often than not, if you’re illegal and
      complain or get hurt on the job, the boss threatens to call the police
      so the employer has full control. All of this has been happening in
      cities across the country as corporate America and Washington say
      nothing! Keep stock holders and voters happy at any cost. This is
      modern day slavery.
      Our Legislature decided they would take matters into its own hands.
      It’s called “state’s rights” kids. We fought a civil war over this
      very issue. But, instead of being celebrated our state is a pariah as
      people are calling for boycotts of everything that is Arizona
      (including Arizona Tea— which is and always has been made in NY!).
      Our new state law is similar to a federal law, one that is rarely
      enforced. It says you CANNOT break into and steal from our
      resources—or export your criminals to a state already struggling. So
      why all the marches, cancellations and outcry now? Because our state
      is the first finally willing to stand and fight.
      “But no person is illegal!”
      Those are the words I hear whenever immigration comes up. Though I
      agree that we are all created equal in God’s eyes, I also know many of
      our military’s servicemen and women, including one of my sons, serve
      in part to preserve a thing called sovereignty. That’s a big concept
      – which I don’t have space to go into here. However, you can read more
      about it in last year’s book Another Man’s Sombrero which describes my
      trip into Mexico and how I sneaked back into America—without papers.
      It took me six whole seconds to get back!
      So, Ankarlo, what would you do? Obviously, we have an immigration
      system that needs some major work so let’s demand that Congress put it
      on the burner along with their health care and Wall Street games.
      Next, we put 10,000 border patrol and national guardsmen at the key
      entrances—fully trained and armed. Then, to avoid the “show me your
      papers” argument we use a passport system. Everywhere that I have
      travelled internationally I have not only carried a passport but have
      been asked to show it multiple times. I guess I should have pulled out
      a protest sign and yelled “Hater and Bigot!” Carry your passport. If
      you don’t have it on you, you have 24 hours to produce it. If law
      enforcement believes that you are here illegally you can be detained
      until someone can provide it for you. People caught making illegal
      passports, drivers licenses etc would be treated as terrorists or
      traitors, depending on citizenship.
      “What does an illegal alien look like?” Here in the U.S. there are
      illegal aliens from at least 51 nations so it can be difficult to
      tell. However, when a group of people stand at the local Home Depot
      and none can speak English, you have a bit of a clue that it’s Colonel
      Mustard with the candlestick in the study. Thus, our new law says the
      police can investigate. Oh, and they can also cite/arrest the guy in
      the pickup who slows down to ferry his new slaves off for a day’s
      labor.
      Almost one seventh of our state’s population is here illegally and
      since our state is nearing $2 billion in debt one has to assume the
      cheap labor and unpaid hospital visits just might be having an impact
      but Arizona is backwards for daring to do something about it!
      Bullcrap!
      Until a federal government finally realizes what an impact its flaccid
      response is having on our independent state (and California, New
      Mexico, the great Republic of Texas and at least 23 other states)
      we’re going to abide by a system our forefathers built into a national
      Constitution—we are going to use our State’s Rights to save ourselves!
      By the way, just this week three houses were raided in two days here
      in Phoenix; one had 69 people in it. Two crack downs were done at the
      same time with almost 100 people arrested, detained or cited—over 90
      percent of them were here illegally. You’re smart so do the math and
      then you’ll understand our anger and confusion. Anger because we’re
      feeling this open door policy first hand and confusion because so many
      still don’t get it.
      ———
      Darrell Ankarlo is a 32 year broadcast veteran and author of two
      books: What Went Wrong with America and How to Fix it and Another
      Man’s Sombrero. Find out more at http://www.ankarlo.net.

      Peace my Friend!

      G!

    • Bottom Line says:

      Right on Tex.

      I especially like the Reagan quote.

      “There are no easy answers’ but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right. They say the world has become too complex for simple answers. They are wrong. When you can’t make them see the light, make them feel the heat.” -Ronald Reagan

      Break it down to it’s simplest form. Eliminate all the BS. Get to the meat of the matter. Find the bottom line.

      There is a certain genius in simplicity. The answer usually is simple.

      The answer to illegal immigration: Secure the border, round them up, sort them out…send the bad ones back, let the good ones stay.

      Simple, but not easy.

    • Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.-Teddy Roosevelt

      Well, “Teddy”, why aren’t you speaking Spanish – they were here “first”.

      The first requisite of a good citizen in this republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight.-Teddy Roosevelt

      Well, “Teddy” – interesting comment coming from a man who gained wealth by living off the efforts of other people!

      We can have no “50-50″ allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
      -Theodore Roosevelt

      Well, “Teddy”, the greatest evils of mankind have been exercised by men who gave up the allegiance to their humanity and joined instead to mere artifacts, abstractions and illusions. Sieg Heil!

      There are no easy answers’ but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.
      They say the world has become too complex for simple answers. They are wrong.
      When you can’t make them see the light, make them feel the heat.-Ronald Reagan

      The easy answer – attacking other people – is the common answer of all men in politics – Reagan’s “Do as I say, not as I do” Ghost

    • With the evil of “immigration” enforcement as supported by D13 and others, the inevitable crush of jackboots strikes all including the innocent.

      If you support D13’s recommendation – this is will be your face in the mud…

      http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/05/08/video_shows_seattle_police_kicking_suspect/?rss_id=Boston.com+–+Latest+news

      Soon after, officers kick the man in the head, hand and leg.
      It turned out the man was not the robbery suspect, and the officers let him go.

      • BF

        Excuse me but I thought D13 was basically implementing your own strategy of non-violence to deal with the illegal migrants.

        I think your claims of Nazism is a little over the top my friend.

        I also want to remind you that we have not reached the ideal yet. So these arguments that “immigration” should be free and open may fit the future but it does not fit the current situation. A country can not last when it is flooded by people who do not hold the same values as that nations citizens/residents. And I am talking about the principles of freedom, liberty and justice. We are being over run by those who have swallowed the Altruistic pill. Many are here for reasons that have nothing to do with finding a new life of freedom.

        I am sorry, but that is reality. To ignore that in your commentary does nothing for your credibility on the broader issue. There are those who come here to become “Americans” and they wish to bring their families. They are hard working and honest, except that little “sneaking across the border” thing. There are others who are here to disrupt our system. Others who are trying to reignite the Mexican/American war. Others still who are just flat out criminals and are using our policies to become rich at our expense. The Mexican Govt has been using us as a pressure release valve on their boiling pot. It is time to stop their deliberate interference.

        If we are to clean up our act then we can sure as hell demand the same of our neighbors.

        • JAC

          Excuse me but I thought D13 was basically implementing your own strategy of non-violence to deal with the illegal migrants.

          I may be confused – but I thought he advocated:

          (1) increase in military enforcement on illegals

          (2) forced documentation of all workers in the USA

          (3) place legal onus on employers to determine the workers legal status.

          I think your claims of Nazism is a little over the top my friend.

          I do not think so.

          The example of the video is precisely the consequence of such a focus on “illegals” – just as the abuse on the blacks was the focus in the ’60’s or the anti-war crowd of Vietnam-era, etc.

          By a demand to increase enforcement and government force, it always creates a consequence of excessive force on innocent people.

          You give the Dogs (Law Enforcement) more lease – you can expect more bites.

          More laws = more enforcement = more Cops beating innocent people.

          I also want to remind you that we have not reached the ideal yet. So these arguments that “immigration” should be free and open may fit the future but it does not fit the current situation. A country can not last when it is flooded by people who do not hold the same values as that nations citizens/residents.

          The attack on this person was not because of “human trafficking” or “drug trade” or any other smoke screen on the issue.

          The attack occurred because of the perception of illegal immigration.

          Drug trade will always exist until the War on Drugs ends.

          For the rest, the answers are simple:

          (1) Employers have the right to hire anyone they wish.

          (2) People have the right to accept any job they are offered.

          (3) Only taxpayers can avail themselves on the tax largess. Everyone else is excluded.

          Not one of these things requires any enforcement. (Taxes are not part of this problem).

          However, you are right. Americans hold a far lower standard of values in that they decide which neighbor gets to hire and which neighbor gets the job.

          Others who are trying to reignite the Mexican/American war.

          This is a simple response to the provocations of a militarized border.

          A people naturally when angered by the treatment of their kin on the other side of an artificial line, will argue that line should be removed, and their kin protected.

          Others still who are just flat out criminals and are using our policies to become rich at our expense.

          No different than any border between the States.

          • Black Flag

            You are wrong about the police brutality example in Seattle.

            As you know, Seattle is very diverse in racial and ethnic terms. Catching “illegals” is not a big issue there. More like a sanctuary city if you will.

            I have tried to explain the increase in gang violence along the west coast to you before. It is not a response to the “drug war” but a simple expansion of criminal activity by Mexican gangs. Not gangs of Mexican Americans but gangs based in Mexico who also recruit Hispanic youth in the USA.

            So these cops are responding to a burglary where “hispanic” looking folks are reported to have been seen leaving the scene of the crime. The cops stop the hispanic looking folks. Now the cop, who is obviously tainted, uses Mexican in a derogatory way. I maintain that is more to do with the “Mexican” gang and crime activities than “illegal migrants”.

            This is the key point here. The current situation is NOT all about Illegals or the Drug War. There is much more going on.

            And those who are in this country and in Mexico trying to restart the War are NOT doing so because of our use of military on the border or the drug war. These are socialist/communist operatives who are fomenting the belief that the USA stole the Southwest from Mexico and they are going to TAKE IT BACK.

            This movement existed long before the recent escalation of border enforcement. Now, are they using the “militarized border” to help fuel the fire among those they are trying to fool. You bet they are. But they were already doing it by other means before. We have given them some good “propaganda” points. But that is the nature of such things.

            If we back off, we lose. If we move forward we lose. If we stand still we lose. So which way causes us to lose less? I’ll sacrifice our supposed “reputation” over an actual loss of sovereignty or our freedoms any day.

            I suggest you spend a little time along the southern border if you truly think the amount and type of criminal activity across that border is the same as any crossing the borders among the several states.

            In fact, most serious crime crossing our state borders today is linked to the same criminal elements as along the southern border.

  40. TexasChem says:

    I highly recommend this book.

    The World Turned Upside Down-by Melanie Phillips
    Published 2010 by Encounter Books.

    In what we tell ourselves is an age of reason, we are behaving increasingly irrationally. More and more people are signing up to weird and wacky cults, para-psychology, seances, paganism and witch- craft. There is widespread belief in ludicrous conspiracy theories, such as the 9/11 terrorist attack being an American plot.

    The basic cause of all this unreason is the erosion of the building blocks of western civilisation. We tell ourselves that religion and reason are incompatible, but in fact the opposite is the case. It was Christianity and the Hebrew Bible that gave us our concepts of reason, progress and an orderly world-the foundations of science and modernity.

    The loss of religious belief has meant the West has replaced reason and truth with ideology and prejudice, which it enforces in the manner of a secular inquisition. The result has been a kind of mass derangement, as truth and lies, right and wrong, victim and aggressor are all turned upside down. In medieval-style witch- hunts, scientists who are skeptical of global warming are hounded from their posts; Israel is ferociously demonized; and the United States is vilified over the war on terror-all on the basis of falsehoods and propaganda that are believed as truth.

    Thus the West is losing both its rationality and its freedoms. It is succumbing to a “soft totalitarianism,” which not only is creating an ugly mood of intolerance but is undermining its ability to defend itself against Islamic aggression. While the Islamists are intent on returning the free world to the seventh century, the West no longer seems willing or able to defend the modernity and rationalism that it brought into being.

    “One is disturbed each day by verifiably untrue statements touted as incontrovertible facts about hot-button issues. With cold, perceptive, exhaustive and persistent passion, Melanie Phillips dissects the phenomenon among disparate movements, to reach disturbing but compelling conclusions about the erosion of modern liberal society by ideologies whose surprising interconnections are meticulously identified.

    • TexasChem

      Islam want to the “free” world (LoL – what a delusion) back to the 7th century – what Islamaphobic statement.

      Modern Christians want to turn the world back into the 1st Century – dominated by a Ceaser and every one its slave.

      I’d rather have lived in the 7th Century Islam world – where religious freedom was maintained, then the Christian world where ritual slaughter of other religions is the norm.

      • Are you just plain delusional to the negative impact of Islam upon the western world or are you just a paid shill?I fling facts in your face and you are the one to toss emotional rhetoric and lies back at me Black Flag.Enough with the false teachings already oh great prophet.Your line of thinking leads only to a sheeple willing to roll over to the wolves!

        BF Stated:” I’d rather have lived in the 7th Century Islam world – where religious freedom was maintained, then the Christian world where ritual slaughter of other religions is the norm.”

        TexasChem:In Islam, all non-Muslims are called unbelievers or infidels. The treatment of the infidels in Islam is divided into two categories. The polytheists, pagans, idolaters and heathens have the choice of converting to Islam or suffer death. The Jews and Christians, whom the Koran calls people of the book, can retain their religion but on the sufferance of accepting humiliation and subjugation to Islam and payment of Jizyah (poll-tax) to the Islamic rulers.

        FACT-Now, let us have a closer look at what the Koran says about the infidels:-

        Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
        Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
        When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
        Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
        Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
        The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
        Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
        The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
        Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
        (22:19)

        Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
        The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
        Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
        Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
        Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)
        The Qur’an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur’an.

        FACT-This is why we see very few “moderate” muslims coming out and speaking against the violence. There is so much overwhelming evidence stacked against them not able to be “moderate” because of the fundamental belief’s of Islam.

        Yeah… I bet you would have loved to live in the 7th Century Islam world BlackFlag if you are a Muslim.

        • TexasChem

          Are you just plain delusional to the negative impact of Islam upon the western world or are you just a paid shill?

          Are you totally delusional to the positive impacts Islam had on the Western world – and merely parrot Islamaphobic hatred?

          Or do you purposely ignore the centuries of slaughter of Christians – the founders of religious warfare – because it is too uncomfortable?

          Are you a paid shill?

          I fling facts in your face and you are the one to toss emotional rhetoric

          What fact?

          Lots of emtional BS, yep.

          and lies

          Lies?

          I don’t think so – I think you’re confused over your own misreading.

          In Islam, all non-Muslims are called unbelievers or infidels. The treatment of the infidels in Islam is divided into two categories. The polytheists, pagans, idolaters and heathens have the choice of converting to Islam or suffer death. The Jews and Christians, whom the Koran calls people of the book, can retain their religion but on the sufferance of accepting humiliation and subjugation to Islam and payment of Jizyah (poll-tax) to the Islamic rulers.

          Yes, that is true.

          But what is also true is that the Christians and Jews flourished under the Islam rule – where the Christians SLAUGHTERED the Muslims.

          In the that day, they were the ones who held the highest religious freedom tenants – the Constitution of Medina = a fact you purposely ignore – that codified it.

          Compared to your Christians – who slaughtered hundreds of thousands in their Crusades…..

          And, that is a fact TexasChem.

          • TexasChem says:

            Pact of Umar (c. 717 AD)

            A “dhimmis” is a non-Muslim living under Islamic law who has paid a special tax and agrees to a long list of strict conditions. Rather than tax Muslims, the Western world actually helps support the Islamic religion by granting them TAX FREE status under religious and charity laws.

            The Pact of Umar is an important historical document. It sets the legal foundation for the way Muslims mistreat Christians right down to the present time. Even today, Christians are required to pay a safety tax in Muslim controlled nations. Basically Muslims will allow Christians to live in their Muslim controlled cities as long as they live as second class slaves and never openly practice Christianity. The penalty is jail, confiscation of all personal property and children, and of course death. Nothing has changed in 1400 years. In Islamic countries today, audio cassette tapes of Islamic preachers are sold in corner stores. Here are some excerpts from two tapes recorded sometime between 1980-1985 AD. The tapes show that the Pact of Umar is still used today and Christians are viewed as second class citizens. Imaging how Muslims would howl if the West forbade Muslims the right to public worship, demolished their Mosques and seized their houses and cars for simply practicing Islam.

            “We are not against the Christians; they will have their rights according to the Pact of Umar.” (Muhammad Hasan, Islamic preacher who quoted, Salb al-Masih; As`ad Bayyumi at-Tamimi, Khutba, leader of the Palestinian group Islamic Jihad, in a widely distributed cassette recording, around 1985 AD)
            “Before this Friday sermon, an official of the Religious Endowments Ministry came and gave me a paper containing instructions to preach on Islamic tolerance towards dhimmis. I protested against such dictates but I’ll readily tackle the subject. Verily Islam is and has always been tolerant with regard to dhimmis, yet on the condition that they know their place.” (Ahmad al-Mahalawi, al-Fitna at-Ta’ifiya fi Misr, Egyptian Sheikh, Islamic preacher, widely distributed cassette recording, around 1985 AD)

            Pact of Umar

            (Probably drafted during the time of Umar b.Abd al Aziz who ruled 717- 720 AD)
            from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230

            The Status of Non-Muslims Under Muslim Rule

            After the rapid expansion of the Muslim dominion in the 7th century, Muslims leaders were required to work out a way of dealing with Non-Muslims, who remained in the majority in many areas for centuries. The solution was to develop the notion of the “dhimma”, or “protected person”. The Dhimmis were required to pay an extra tax, but usually they were unmolested. This compares well with the treatment meted out to non-Christians in Christian Europe. The Pact of Umar is supposed to have been the peace accord offered by the Caliph Umar to the Christians of Syria, a “pact” which formed the pattern of later interaction.

            We heard from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

            In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

            We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks’ cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
            We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
            We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.
            We shall not teach the Qur’an to our children.
            We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
            We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.
            We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.
            We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.
            We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.
            We shall not sell fermented drinks.
            We shall clip the fronts of our heads.
            We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists
            We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.
            We shall not take slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
            We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.
            (When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, “We shall not strike a Muslim.”)

            We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

            If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

            Umar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: “They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims,” and “Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact.”

            (from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230)

            BF Stated:”But what is also true is that the Christians and Jews flourished under the Islam rule – where the Christians SLAUGHTERED the Muslims.”

            SO BlackFlag.Let me get this straight.Islam is the religion of peace because the Muslim allows the conquerored to live as second class citizens?Slaves.What you are failing to acknowledge is that the “christian slaughterers” were in fact driving out their oppresors from land that was indeed originally Christian centuries before Islam even existed!!!Islam is the religion of deceit used to further the political conquest of the known world and is actively pursuing that goal to this day.

            http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/islams_european_conquest_is_am.html

            http://www.albatrus.org/english/living/ourtimes/islam_conquer_europe.htm

            http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/03/uk-conference-on-islam-in-italy-boasts-of-coming-islamic-conquest.html

            http://www.realtruth.org/articles/253-wice.html

        • TexasChem says:

          Hey USW I posted a reply to BlackFlag and I guess its in your box for moderation since I had 4 or 5 links in it!Lemee know in case it got lost in cyberspace and I will reply once more.Thanks!

      • Your anti-christian but not anti-other religions smacks of inconsistency once again BF. What gives? I get that there is some serious problems in Christian history, most of it more a result of abuse of faith by power mongers. That particular weakness is one that ALL religions are subject to, and have been subject to in history. The idea that theocratic islamic states with stated goals of death to non believers is called islamaphobic but modern christians who rely too heavily on government and want special marriage laws is compared to 1st century corruption of the faith caried out by the emporer of a dying empire, leading to the dark ages is considered a good connection? WTF mate? Come off it. You either want freedom of religion or not, and you want it out of government or not. Picking one over another is just emotional bullcrap and personal bias, not philosophical honesty or consistency.

        • Jon

          I know your comment was to BF but I think you are missing the point.

          Tex has and is arguing that Islam is evil and Christian is righteous.

          BF is trying to point out that Islam and Christian have been both righteous and evil. Also that in the beginning the Muslims were much more tolerant than the Christians. I think we would all agree that “tolerance” in the first centuries AD is not the same as “tolerance” we think of today.

          The key point here is that as long as folks simple condemn Islam and deliberately ignore the evils perpetrated by Christians there is a greater chance of causing more evil than there is of finding peace.

          A global religious war will destroy humanity. This is how it will start if people are not willing to see both sides and find those who share a vision of peace and prosperity. Not all Muslims believe in or follow the tenants of violence. No more than all Christians follow those in the Bible.

          I know that BF’s comments sound anti-Christian if you did not read one of his earlier explanation. I am pretty sure he equally condemns all if not most of the organized religions.

          Then again, I could be misreading him and he is in fact what you perceive. But I think not. Think I will butt back out now and let him explain.

          Hope your weekend was fun and filled with joy.
          JAC

          • Wars over religion have been apart of our human history forever. Seems like that won’t change anytime soon. Sad 😦

          • You are probably right, BF is rarely inconsistent, I was just suprised at the language used. To bias a response in order to combat a biased statement just introduces extra inaccuracies. Its not about who was worse, its about the core problem. Christianity has a horrifying past connected with it, as do most religions. If there are any that do not, it is likely because they have not been around long or have not infiltrated or been weilded by government yet.

            It is not the failing of religion or faith itself. I do think some have more of a tendency to get intertwined with power than others, but the point is not that religion is bad. Blind faith is bad, and the combination of religion and power is bad. That is all that need be said.

          • JAC, G-Man, and Jon.

            JAC, you are -as usual- dead on.

            To condemn one religion while regaling in the same behavior within your religion is an act of evil self-deception.

            I feel ALL institutions will always devolve into some form of overt manipulation of people for the purposes of control and power – including religion instutions.

            Institutions twist from being a tool of organization into becoming the center of the organization itself – that is, it becomes its own reason for existence.

            Thus men die for a Flag, a Chair, a Crown – believing these things are more important then real human life.

            Religion is no different…. dying for a two pieces of wood in an “X”, etc.

            The roots of Islamic religion does come from an attempt to consolidate the Arabic nomads by force. None of the tribes would submit to a leader from another tribe – but became willing to submit to the representative of “God”.

            Mohammad was wise enough to know this, and a few key victories he parlayed himself into being “the voice of God”.

            But he didn’t figure this out all by himself.

            He learned it from the Christians.

            Christianity did the same thing – rebuilt the “Holy Roman Empire” based on the Church’s supremacy of spiritual matters on Earth.

            It was the same technique that was used to gather in the nomadic tribes of Vikings, and other barbarians…. a technique over and over again throughout history.

            However, condemning an entire people based on their religion is an act of evil.

            Christians invented Holy War. They executed this war with untold destruction and savagery unseen in the Western World.

          • TexasChem says:

            JaC Stated:”Tex has and is arguing that Islam is evil and Christian is righteous”

            TC: No that is not what I am stating. I am stating that Islam is fundamentally wrong with their theological and moral beliefs.Any religion that teaches malevolent atrocities such as what they teach is evil.Any religion with doctrine that can lead to such savage acts is beneficial to society?It is against natural law and hence Gods true will.I’m posting a link to Truthtube JaC and BlackFlag.I urge you both to research the deeds committed by your followers of the religion of peace.After reviewing this site come back and tell me you still believe that this so called religion is not a fanatical cult.You both fancy yourselves great thinkers and philosophers so what is your reaction to the real face of Islam?Christians have committed atrocities in the past but not here in the present in the name of God. Why don’t you both try to live in the present for the hour or so to review these videos and then take an hour to study the teachings of the Nazarene.Mature Christians move beyond basic teachings, or elementary Christian doctrine,to advance beyond those ‘beginnings’ and continue growing in the Word.In moving beyond the fundamentals, Christians progress toward moral maturity. The disciple is to strive for perfect, or mature growth, in relation to the “doctrine of Christ.” Largely this involves the Christian Bible as well as those portions of the Hebrew Bible applied and interpreted by the inspired disciples of Jesus.

            The following atrocities against humanity can not be applied to a civilized society.

            It is wrong to bury a woman up to her waist and stone her to death for being raped.
            It is wrong to treat women as property.
            It is wrong to strap on explosives and kill innocents.
            It is wrong to mutilate young girls with clitorectimies.
            It is wrong to blame earthquakes on women!
            It is wrong to chop your wifes head off for divorcing you.
            It is wrong to treat non-muslims as second class citizens.
            It is wrong to marry nine year old girls.
            It is wrong to cut someones hand off for stealing a loaf of bread.
            It is wrong to saw someones head off with a combat knife for any reason.
            It is wrong to force someone to adopt your religion or die.
            It is wrong to kill someone if they want to leave your religion.
            It is wrong to teach children to kill.

            But review this site and you will see all of that and worse.All permitted and made possible by the religion of peace.Not 200 years ago not 1000 years ago but during our modern present time.These events are widespread throughout the Islamic countries.These are not isolated instances of a few terrorists.These acts are from multiple Islamic countries under Sharia Law.Do not try to play that card either of you because the jokers no longer wild.
            While I am teaching my boys to play sports, hunt and fish; attend church and social culture the Islamic religious followers teach their 12 year olds this…

            http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=2008

            BF Stated:”Christians invented Holy War. They executed this war with untold destruction and savagery unseen in the Western World.”

            TC:Christians reacted to the conquest of their way of life by retaliating BlackFlag.Islam continues the war to this day and without a doubt will cause Christians to react again to oppose their being subjugated slaves.As we say in Texas “If you mess with the bull you WILL get the horns!”

            • Holy Shit TC: You really should have posted a warning about that video.

              Warning: That video is gruesome…..

              • TexasChem says:

                I apologize Anita.I had thought from stating in my post “But review this site and you will see all of that and worse.” in regards to the atrocities I had stated, that others would be prepared.The site contains videos and stories of atrocities and the negative impact of Islamic culture to society that the American PC media just doesn’t seem relevant to cover with a story.Odd isn’t it though that until something affects us directly or is blatantly exposed in our faces that we Americans finally “get it”.

            • Tex

              You say that I mischaracterized your position on Islam vs. Christian. But your argument that follows certainly seems to once again make the argument that Islam is evil and Christian is righteous. You even said point blank that it is evil. So perhaps it is the use of “righteous” you disagree with. If that is the case you will have to explain because it sure looks to me like you are making that case as well.

              Now, please explain what laws you consider as “natural law” and how you came to understand what these laws are. What is the source of “natural law” and how do you know this to be true?

              And for the record, Muslims are not “my” followers. Sometimes I wonder if you actually read the words I post. I do happen to know many peace loving and patriotic Muslims, however. So that fact alone negates your characterization of Muslims.

              You can not claim a religion is evil without casting the same claim against ALL who practice that religion. Perhaps some have simply progressed farther along, much like the Christians that you claim have progressed beyond the brutal practices contained in the Bible.

              • TexasChem says:

                @-JaC,

                JaC Stated:”You say that I mischaracterized your position on Islam vs. Christian. But your argument that follows certainly seems to once again make the argument that Islam is evil and Christian is righteous. You even said point blank that it is evil.”

                TC:I was being condescending my dear fellow.My stance towards Islam is very clear.I believe with every molecule within my body that any religion thats followers are screaming that God is great while simultaneously beheading someone to justify their evil deed is the most hypocritical evil act imaginable.

                You still insist upon playing the ethnic profiling card.I fail to see your reasoning as to why.Islamic immigration into western society has been beneficial how?Do you not realize what is taking place in Europe today?

                This video is not gruesome Anita. 🙂
                Where are these moderate Muslims JaC?

                http://truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=3094

              • Tex

                Here are two examples of Muslims speaking out against the radicals.

                http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=40487

                http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-05-08-husain07_ST_N.htm

                As I said. Don’t cast such a large loop that you catch more than you are aiming for. If you wish to cast all Muslims as evil you will create evil of untold proportions.

              • Tex

                I fail to see where I am playing any ethnic card. You had better provide proof of your accusation or you will have absolutely no credibility with me in the future.

                Whether Muslims have added anything of benefit to the west via their immigration is NOT the issue we are discussing here Tex. So why do you want to chase that rabbit?

                It does seem to fit my perception of your absolute hatred for all things and people Muslim.

                If that perception is in error then this is your chance to clarify your views.

              • Tex

                You didn’t answer my direct questions regarding Natural Law.

                How say you?

              • TexasChem says:

                JaC Stated:”You didn’t answer my direct
                questions regarding Natural Law.”

                TC:I am currently working towards an answer regarding that question JaC.I have been working towards answering that question for myself for quite some time now.It is on paper.When I finish it; whether it is tonight or a year from now I will post it.You are an intelligent man so I have no doubts as to your interpretation of what my beliefs are with defining Natural Law.I know that I have no doubt that they are similiar to your own.I will tell you that although I am a Christian my basing Natural Law as a requirement for a civilized people is founded upon many beliefs from many religions and even from non-religious societies.

                JaC Stated:”I fail to see where I am playing any ethnic card.”

                TC:The definition of ethnic is:Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

                I quote myself: “These events are widespread throughout the Islamic countries.These are not isolated instances of a few terrorists.These acts are from multiple Islamic countries under Sharia Law.”

                Now let me add this: The current and beginning teachings are corrupt and have lead to atrocities committed in the name of Gods will according to Islamic principle in todays modern world.I am not speaking of centuries ago I am speaking modern era.
                The roots of Islam are indeed Judeaic as BF likes to point out but, there is no denying that the branches have become withered and diseased.The evidence is irrefutable.

                JaC if I am mistaken I apologize to you.As I see it, your view of what freedom should be does not correspond with the reality of the consequences that we face with a religion built upon the negative principles of Islam that have been documented throughout history and definitely towards as they are being recorded today.

                My conclusion as to the ethnic statement derives from your comparison of Islam and Christianity in the past as to the impact upon modern society and the civilization of both religions, right now, this very moment, today.There is absolutely no comparison.

                JaC stated:”It does seem to fit my perception of your absolute hatred for all things and people Muslim.”

                TC:Not one time have I stated that I hate Muslims.Hate is a very strong emotion JaC.I will state that I believe Islams teachings as immoral and detrimental to society.Misleading if you will, as to the values society needs in order to be beneficial for all of its members.Especially western society.

                Islam is not an immutable object existing in a realm of pure ideals, and it simply isn’t what is written down on paper. In addition to the ideals and dogma, they are the actions that the practicioners actually do. Because of this, extreme fundamentalists in this group have just as much claim to the religion as do the non-violent. Dismissing them as false members or radicalized does them and the religion a grave disservice.Jihad makes this point abundantly clear!

              • That’s better TC.:) It’s still a sad situation.

                Where is God when we need him?

              • Anita said

            • TexaxChem

              I am stating that Islam is fundamentally wrong with their theological and moral beliefs.

              *blink*

              “Fundamentally”
              “wrong”
              “theological”
              “moral”
              “beliefs”

              (1) They are rooted in Judaic and Christian beliefs.

              As I pointed out before, your attack on Islam is an attack on your core fundamental beliefs as well

              (2) Wrong? How can you claim them “wrong” and you “right”?

              It is a belief.

              You are claiming that they are wrong in believing in the color “red” and they should, like you, believe in the color “blue”!

              (3)theological: What part of theology are you arguing about?

              Jews: the First Coming of the Savior hasn’t happened yet.

              You (Christian): the First has come, and you’re waiting for the Second.

              Islam: the First has come, and the Second has come, and there ain’t no more.

              Again, you argument destroys your believe too, TexasChem.

              The following atrocities against humanity can not be applied to a civilized society.

              It is wrong to bury a woman up to her waist and stone her to death for being raped.

              Warning: These pics are intense.

              It is wrong for a child to be murdered by Christians while on his way to school, just because he was Muslim.

              inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/00s_12_18/033_21300713.jpg

              It is wrong to treat women as property.
              It is wrong to strap on explosives and kill innocents.

              It is wrong for Christians to sieze and torture children, just because they are Muslim.

              inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/00s_12_18/012_21300551.jpg

              It is wrong to mutilate young girls with clitorectimies.

              It is wrong to treat men like dogs.

              inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/00s_12_18/013_21300491.jpg

              It is wrong to blame earthquakes on women!

              It is wrong to attack an entire nation of people for an act they did not do.

              inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/00s_12_18/011_21443637.jpg

              It is wrong to chop your wifes head off for divorcing you.

              It is wrong to blow off the arms and legs of children, just because they are Muslim.
              mindprod.com/image/restricted/noarmboy.jpg

              It is wrong to treat non-muslims as second class citizens.

              It is wrong to treat Muslims like target practice.

              mindprod.com/image/restricted/manandgirl.jpg

              It is wrong to marry nine year old girls.

              It is wrong to kill Muslim families.

              mindprod.com/image/restricted/3inabox.jpg

              It is wrong to cut someones hand off for stealing a loaf of bread.

              It is wrong to burn a Muslim child’s arm off, just because he is Muslim.

              mindprod.com/image/restricted/iraqcooked.jpg

              It is wrong to saw someones head off with a combat knife for any reason.

              It is wrong to slaughter an entire people, for no reason.
              mindprod.com/image/restricted/iraqskeleton.jpg

              It is wrong to force someone to adopt your religion or die.

              It is wrong to slaughter those because of their religion.

              mindprod.com/image/restricted/checkpoint.jpg

              It is wrong to kill someone if they want to leave your religion.

              It is wrong to kill others because they are religious.

              mindprod.com/image/restricted/soldierarm.jpg

              It is wrong to teach children to kill.

              It is wrong to kill children.

              mindprod.com/image/restricted/nohead.jpg

              But review this site and you will see all of that and worse.All permitted and made possible by the religion of peace.Not 200 years ago not 1000 years ago but during our modern present time.

              +1,000,000 dead – by the hand of a “Christian” nation.

              These events are widespread throughout the Islamic countries.

              This event is holds widespread support throughout Christian countries.

              These are not isolated instances of a few terrorists.

              These are not isolated instances of a few Christian soldiers.

              These acts are from multiple Islamic countries under Sharia Law.

              These are acts from multiple Christian countries under their law.

              While I am teaching my boys to play sports, hunt and fish; attend church and social culture the Islamic religious followers teach their 12 year olds this…

              While your boys play with their Dad, these soul survivor 12 year old boy has to peel and scrape and bury the remains of his family out of this car – filled with American bullets.
              mindprod.com/image/restricted/iraqbulletcar.jpg

              BF Stated:”Christians invented Holy War. They executed this war with untold destruction and savagery unseen in the Western World.”

              TC:Christians reacted to the conquest of their way of life by retaliating BlackFlag.

              B/S.

              As already demonstrated – the incursions came first from Europe.

              Further, there was no “way of life” change that was that dramatic.

              Second, the Christians invented genocidal holy war.

              You can dance, but you’re singing of this tune is terrible.

              • TexasChem says:

                B/S.

                BF-Stated:”As already demonstrated – the incursions came first from Europe.”

                TC:Ok here we go again.You are making the arguement against Europe geographically, specifically Macedonia and then tieing in the Christian element a thousand years later, let me say that again, a THOUSAND years later to mislead people.

                BF-Stated”Further, there was no “way of life” change that was that dramatic.”

                TC:I beg to differ oh great thinker of the 21st century!I am a Christian.My sense of freedom does not include Sharia Law nor cowtowing to a people forcing me to become a second class citizen.I would have no doubts that the cultural and theological clash at this time led to very dramatic changes in the “way of life”.Just as it is begining to happen in Europe again with immigration!

                BF Stated:”Second, the Christians invented genocidal holy war.”

                TC:That simply is not true.Are you stating that war did not exist until Christians appeared?My, my, my…
                BlackFlag ethnic genocide has been committed throughout recorded history.One of the first recorded I believe was the expulsion of the Semitic Hyksos peoples from ancient Egypt sometime in 1600’s BC.

                BF stated:”You can dance, but you’re singing of this tune is terrible.”

                TC:Alas tis true, I can two step, waltz, jitterbug,polka and swing.Hell in my youth I could even do a bit of breakdancing and urban hip hop.I’ll be the first to admit I can’t hold a tune while singing but; it is indeed a fact that I am dancing circles around you in this debate BlackFlag!

                More to follow…

              • TexasChem says:

                BF-stated “They are rooted in Judaic and Christian beliefs.
                As I pointed out before, your attack on Islam is an attack on your core fundamental beliefs as well”

                TC-Woah there Hoss!My core fundamental beliefs have nothing to do with living my life in accordance with the Hadiths of Mohammad.You can bet your last poker dollar on that bet buddy!

              • TC,

                Your belief system is rooted in the same dung heap as their is.

            • A list of atrocities pre-20th Century.

              Note: 100% of the religious genocidal wars were Christian.

              China 221 B.C.-19 C. 33,519,0004 Religious:No

              Mongols 14 C-15 C 29,927,000 Religious:No

              Slavery of Africans 1451-1870 17,267,000 Religious:No

              Amer-Indians 16 C-19 C 13,778,000 Religious:No

              Thirty Years War 1618-1648 5,750,000 Religious:Yes

              In India 13 C-1 9 C 4,511,0005 Religious:No

              In Iran 5 C-19 C 2,000,0004,5 Religious:No

              Ottoman Empire 12 C-19 C 2,000,0005 Religious:No

              In Japan 1570-19 C 1,500,0005 No
              In Russia 10 C-19 C 1,007,0005 Religious:No

              Christian Crusades 1095-1272 1,000,000 Religious:Yes

              Aztecs Overthrow 1,000,000 Religious:Yes

              Spanish Inquisition 16 C-18 C 350,000 Yes

              French Revolution 1793-1794 263,000 Religious:No

              Albigensian Crusade 1208-1249 200,000 Religious:Yes

              Witch Hunts 15 C-17 C 100,000 Religious:Yes

              • TexasChem says:

                BF stated:”Note: 100% of the religious genocidal wars were Christian.”

                That simply is not true.I noticed you conveniently left out the 20th century onwards to the present day.Why was this?

                The Ottoman, Iranian and Indian references you posted are not true.They were religious.The Ottoman Empire was one of the most successful Islamic Empires in history BF.They also have the honor of committing the first religious ethnic genocide of the twentieth century!Modern Jihad.

                The Los Angeles Times reported in 1918 that US Ambassador Morgenthau said that the Ottoman Empire had “massacred fully 2,000,000 men, women, and children — Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians; fully 1,500,000 Armenians.” They were massacred by Ottoman (Turkish) and Kurdish forces between 1914 and 1920.The Ottomans happened to be Islamic and the Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians Christian.

                I’ve said it once before BF.I do not deny Christian nor Judean involvement in PAST atrocities against humanity.It is a historical fact.The actions in todays world are vastly different.

              • TC,

                That simply is not true.

                I am constantly amazed at people who say “That’s not true” – when it is a fact, and then go right along and argue some other point way off in left field as if that argument makes fact false!

                I noticed you conveniently left out the 20th century onwards to the present day. Why was this?

                …just
                because it only gets worse for Christians.

                The Ottoman, Iranian and Indian references you posted are not true.They were religious.The Ottoman Empire was one of the most successful Islamic Empires in history

                A “religiious” war is a war to erdicate and genocide another religion.

                The Ottoman EMPIRE is merely an EMPIRE extending its control.

                You would not suggest that the invasion of the Philippines by the Japanese was to enforce BUDDHISM.

                BF.They also have the honor of committing the first religious ethnic genocide of the twentieth century!Modern Jihad.

                I would suggest that it is a cultural genocide.

                Armenians were NOT slaughtered because of their religion – they lived under the Turks for a century.

                They were killed because they pushed for independence.

                You want to search for religious motives and it distorts your vision.

                They committed genocide, yes – not on religious war, but a cultural war.

                The Ottomans happened to be Islamic and the Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians Christian.

                And that is correct – they “just happened” to be of a different religion, who – up until the drive for independence – lived together centuries.

                I’ve said it once before BF.I do not deny Christian nor Judean involvement in PAST atrocities against humanity.It is a historical fact.

                And current atrocities as well…

                The actions in todays world are vastly different.

                I’d suggest you remove whatever filter you use on your glasses.

            • A River of Blood
              And Yield They Did.

              In 1122 Christian crusaders swept over Jerusalem and slaughtered men, women and children, ‘until their horses were knee deep in blood. We then went to the church to thank the Lord for his mercy.’

              In 777 , Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning.

              In the fourth century, Emporor Constantine, the first Roman Emperor to become a Christian, had over 3000 Christians executed because their interpretation of the Bible did not agree with his. That is more than the number of Christians who died at the hands of the Romans during the well known 1st century “Christians to the lions” persecutions.

              Queen Isabella, famous for sending Columbus to the New World in 1492, was well known also for her ‘Spanish Inquisition’, the gruesome torture and murder of tens of thousands of Spanish Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people who read or wrote, uppity women, and anyone else not up to the Queen’s strict standards. Isabella was a champion of the faith, piously congratulating herself as her victims writhed to their deaths in the flames and the many other ingenious methods of torture invented by her inquisitors.

            • The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive.

              As “they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell.

              Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell.”

  41. Egads…where is everyone today?Happy Mothers day to the SUFA moms!

    • I’ll reply right here. Thanks to ALL the SUFA guys for all the good wishes !! And my own shout out goes to all the SUFA moms as well. Now ladies, lets all get the chaise lounges out and proceed to be served today !!!!!! 🙂

  42. Judy Sabatini says:

    Morning

    I would like to thank those for the Happy Mother’s day wish and also say, without a doubt, I have come to learn a great deal from all of you here, and I am so very glad that I came to this site, I think about a year ago, and I am very happy and proud to call each and every one of you here my friend.

    Thank you and God Bless you all

    Judy

    • Thanks Judy, You said it so well, I’m just gonna add my name to your comments. Happy Mothers Day to everybody.

    • I agree totally with those sentiments Judy, I too have learned much, and have always respected USW for the way he runs his site. Happy Mother’s Day to all mothers here, and to the mothers and wives of all here.

      • USW does run an excellant site but somewhere last night he lost all control of it 🙂

        • Well, you know what they say, all serious politics and no silly talk about thongs makes jack a dull website. Or something like that…

          • Judy Sabatini says:

            Oh, too funny Jon. But, I have a serious question I would like to ask, and I have never gotten an answer to, and I hope someone here can help me.

            Why is it, with all the room in the world to fly around in, Why in the heck do gnats fly right in front of your face? Now, I’m serious, so, don’t laugh.

            • Not sure, there are a variety of theories.
              1) Gnats are attracted to carbon dioxide. They like rotting stuff, which puts off CO2, your breathing does as well. This may be why they like to hang in that area.

              2) Gnats tend to hover/swarm around identifiable markers. Often in a group of people they tend to swarm around the tallest person. In the absence of people, they hover around broken trees, patches of sunlight, etc. They are communal creatures, you rarely see a single gnat.

              3) Gnats fly all over the place. You just notice it more when they keep flting in your face. It is obvious they are swarming around you and not around, say, the corner of the room, but they are not JUST swarming your face, its usually around your whole head.

              4) An additional attractant to the CO2 in your breath can be smells in your breath or perfume, etc. that they think are a food source.

              • Judy Sabatini says:

                Well, thanks for the answer Jon, much appreciated. That does help explain why. I asked that, because invariably, I get one or two buzzing around me and I’m afraid to open my mouth. I guess maybe because I do wear body spray and perfume, not to mention hair spray. Guess they think I’m lunch or a big flower.

  43. OMG! Did I miss some fun last night…..(thongs must be Hanky Panky)

    Happy Mother’s Day to all and special (nice) thoughts to you Anita. (truce for the day)

    What a great group here at SUFA!

    • Murphy's Law says:

      I missed it too, last night…..I’ve tried thongs but I agree with the female comic that said, why would I want to wear a thong? I’ve spent my whole life trying to keep my underwear OUTTA that crack!!!

      Happy Mother’s Day to all, my friends……I have taken it easy so far, just enjoying the day with my sweet hubby and the calls from my children wishing me a Happy Mother’s Day…..

      Murf

    • Kathy: How can I argue with that special shout out! Thanks! Ok truce for today. We’ll just both be moms 🙂

      Murf: For some reason that sounds like a Kathy Griffin line. On the other hand she probably wears a thong 🙂

  44. Cyndi P says:

    Down Here G-Man (or maybe I should say over here)

    What’s true? That you killed my buzz or how the male body changes after 35?

    You haven’t killed my buzz.

    As for the male physique, I don’t mind the changes. At 48, I’ll never make the cover “Hot Babes” magazine, or any other similar publication. That said, I still wear a two piece swimsuit, flab, strech marks, and everything. No one has tried to roll me back into the water yet, though I’ve had to endure a few ‘barbs’.

    😉

    • Not trying to kill your buzz! 🙂

      I was always thin, which means, no ass! Just havin fun.

      G!

      • The male body produces peak testosterone from 25 to 35, then it starts to drop off. You can still build muscle well into your sixties tho. Which is a good thing for me. I put in a hard day this week and realized how out of shape I am since the old days. Time to bulk back up. Im 33, I got 2 years of prime time, but at least 17 years of good bulk building days 🙂

        • Jon, 33! Welcome to the downfall! The chest heads south and the ass heads north. Good luck trying to change that! 😆

          • Funny G

            • Ain’t that funny, at least we have something heading north 😆 Only kidding! But ….

          • Gonna take a lot of work. I don’t care that much about the looks. My girl doesn’t either, its all about function over form. I just want to be able to slip 250lbs around as easily as I used to, and not have my lungs mutiny at 5 miles. I got soft over the last 3 years, not in my head, but in body. Still stronger than I look and can handle myself and all that crap, but its not enough. If things go real bad like they might in this country, its gonna take more than brains to survive.

            • I am not as lean, but just as mean, and still a Marine!

              If the manure hits the spreader on overdrive, it will take a lot of brains AND the ability to hit what you aim at, no matter what you are aiming.

              I, for one, do hope and pray that things do not get that far out of hand. I pray that calmer minds and clearer heads will prevail.

              • Indeed, as do I. With some of the recent events, it is hard work making sure that I am one of those calmer minds. Well worth the effort tho.

  45. I will say, I think USW has been very busy and out of touch. So I guess that means when the head mouse is away, the Kittins will play!

    G!

    • I’m sure we’re all on disciplinary probation at the moment. Thanks to Cyndi & BL

      • I got a feeling that USW will giggle quite a lot, and then we’ll all get back to normal. We all need some fun and change, it helps to stay sane! I’ve laughed hard and it’s healthy (cept for the ribs) ! 🙂

      • Cyndi P says:

        I’m the person your mother warned you about!

        😆

    • Cyndi P says:

      Meeeooowwww….scratch my back!

      😉

  46. Hope and Change my ass!

    May 9, 2010

    Dear Patriotic American,

    Barack Hussein Obama was purportedly elected because he campaigned for “CHANGE”. But, for the past 31 years, the United States Justice Foundation (USJF) has been solidly on the very forefront of REAL CHANGE, for the betterment of all patriotic Americans!

    We continue to fight battles that no one else will fight!

    We continue to fight to make sure that Mr. Obama produces his genuine, full-length, birth certificate; something that Mr. Obama has spent, according to published reports, over $1.7 Million to conceal! What is he hiding?

    AND, RIGHT NOW… USJF is co-counsel on an amicus brief that is being filed THIS MONDAY, MAY 10th!

    The bottom line: USJF is answering a call for help from New Jersey freedom lovers who have filed a RECALL PETITION against U. S. Senator Robert Menendez (D-NJ)!
    Let me explain to you what has happened…

    Opponents of the Obama socialist agenda, in accordance with New Jersey state law, filed the paperwork to recall one of Mr. Obama’s most loyal votes in the U. S. Senate Robert Menendez of New Jersey.

    Instead of dealing with the voters of New Jersey, Senator Menendez filed a lawsuit to block the recall. He does not believe that the voters of New Jersey have the right to remove/recall him from public office. We here at USJF disagree.

    On Tuesday, April 27, the New Jersey State Supreme Court granted U. S. Senator Robert Menendez’s petition for review of a state Appellate’s court order. That Order, dated March 16, 2010, required the New Jersey Secretary of State to accept and file the RECALL PETITION of the Committee to Recall Robert Menendez from the Office of U. S. Senator. In other words, the appellate court ruled that the people of New Jersey could recall Senator Menendez, but the Senator appealed that Order.

    Adopting an accelerated schedule, the State Supreme Court has ordered that briefs on both sides be filed no later than MAY 10, 2010. Oral argument is scheduled for MAY 25, 2010, at 10 A.M.

    We’ve been requested by supporters of this recall, and of the Recall Congress movement generally, to submit an amicus brief in support of the Committee to Recall Senator Menendez! That’s exactly what will happen this Monday morning!

    **The people are speaking, loud and clear!**

  47. Judy Sabatini says:

    Good Evening people

    Hope all my gal pals here had a good Mother’s Day today, and guys I hope your wives had a really special day today as well.

    I had a wonderful day with my two son’s. They got me some really nice gifts and a beautiful bunch of flowers in a beautiful vase, which I have sitting on my desk in front of me. They took me and mom out for dinner and it was just wonderful, couldn’t have asked for a better day. Oh yeah, Hubby got to go too.

    Hope you all will have a great rest of the night, and a really wonderful day tomorrow, even if it is Monday.

    Good night my friends, and sleep well.

    Love you all

    Take Care

    Judy

  48. Texas Chem

    TC:Ok here we go again.You are making the arguement against Europe geographically, specifically Macedonia and then tieing in the Christian element a thousand years later, let me say that again, a THOUSAND years later to mislead people.

    My point is specific, from the first post – Europe invaded the territory first. The nomadic tribes – united under a “banner” – repelled them and grew an Empire of their own.

    It had nothing to do with religion per say – other than as a tool to unite some nomadic tribes into a military force – no different then the European tribes were united under Christianity – does not make the “Christian” wars religious!

    BF-Stated”Further, there was no “way of life” change that was that dramatic.”

    TC:I beg to differ oh great thinker of the 21st century!I am a Christian.My sense of freedom does not include Sharia Law nor cowtowing to a people forcing me to become a second class citizen.I would have no doubts that the cultural and theological clash at this time led to very dramatic changes in the “way of life”.Just as it is begining to happen in Europe again with immigration!

    You are not forced to change your religion. As repeated pointed out by the Constitution of Medina Mohammad codified the specific requirement of Muslims to accept Judaic and Christian religions.

    Further, you want to FORCE Muslims to accept YOUR culture – and as a man who has lived in both – I can attest that their move to your culture is a step backwards.

    BF Stated:”Second, the Christians invented genocidal holy war.”

    TC:That simply is not true.Are you stating that war did not exist until Christians appeared?

    I specifically stated: invented genocidal holy war, ergo – the Crusades.

  49. TexasChem

    Now let me add this: The current and beginning teachings are corrupt and have lead to atrocities committed in the name of Gods will according to Islamic principle in todays modern world.I am not speaking of centuries ago I am speaking modern era.

    And this is true in Christianity, or any other religion you wish to point to. No religion on Earth can exist without committing atrocities in its name – it is impossible because of the nature of institutionalization.

    The moment the ‘abstract’ becomes its own reason for existence, humanity falls to second place.

    The roots of Islam are indeed Judeaic as BF likes to point out but, there is no denying that the branches have become withered and diseased.The evidence is irrefutable.

    I agree – nothing from those roots is worth keeping.

    From day one, the roots of religion exist to control the minds of the People. The pervasiveness of the Judaic incarnations is testament to the power of this mind control.

    The pervasiveness of these religions are rooted in the use of hard-core violence to compel adherence.

    This is where your vision fails.

    You say “Oh, Christians were “bad” way back then”.

    So, are you saying they weren’t Christians and you are? Then what were they if they were not Christians?

    If they were Christians, then they are the same as you and you as them. So their atrocities are yours to hold as well. They made you.

    The true case: it is a institution that utilized pure violence to expand its reach and influence – and continued to use such violence until a point that the People, on their own, submitted to the institution willingly.

    The institution is as evil as it was day one. It is the People, beaten with it over generations, that have legitimized it.

    Islam is not an immutable object existing in a realm of pure ideals..

    Christianity is not an immutable object existing in a realm of pure ideals and it simply isn’t what is written down on paper.

    In addition to the ideals and dogma, they are the actions that the practitioners actually do.

    Because of this, extreme fundamentalists in this group have just as much claim to the religion as do the non-violent.

    Dismissing them as false members or radicalized does them and the religion a grave disservice.

    Their wars makes this point abundantly clear.

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