NOT Turning the Other Cheek

The Colonel has shared his insights and information on Texas border violence.  I don’t mean to stray into his territory except to note that when someone shoots at Texans, they tend to shoot back.  When an armed helicopter enters Texas airspace (1), their response is to have ready sixteen armed helicopters.(2)  Brings to mind the saying, “Don’t mess with Texas”.

I saw a headline today about China accusing the USA of human rights violations.  I don’t know, didn’t bother to read any farther.  I was occupied with considering stepping between the esteemed Colonel and our original pirate, Black Flag.  With all the violence in the Middle East, the increasing attacks on Israel have failed to attract much media attention.

I have a personal belief, that self-defense is an absolute right.  Such a simple statement, but the ramifications  can be quite complex.  I think the same right belongs to groups and nations.  The United States has the right to demand Mexico stop acts of violence across our border.  We have the right to hold them accountable for even individual acts of violence.  When Rico the drug dealer shoots at a rancher in the US, we can treat this as an act of war.  So what is different in the situation between Israel and Palestine?

two, one two three four

Ev’rybody’s talking about
Bagism, Madism, Dragism, Shagism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism
ism ism ism
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

its goin’ great

Two Wounded After Gaza Missile Strike Hits School Bus

By Leland Vittert

April 7: A wounded Israeli is treated by medics at the site where an Israeli school bus was hit by a mortar shell fired from the Gaza Strip near the border between southern Israel and Gaza Wednesday. A Palestinian mortar shell from the Gaza Strip struck a school bus in southern Israel Thursday, wounding two people, including one child critically, Israeli officials said.

AP2011April 7: A wounded Israeli is treated by medics at the site where an Israeli school bus was hit by a mortar shell fired from the Gaza Strip near the border between southern Israel and Gaza Wednesday. A Palestinian mortar shell from the Gaza Strip struck a school bus in southern Israel Thursday, wounding two people, including one child critically, Israeli officials said.

In what appears to be a clear escalation of the Hamas-Israel cross-border attacks along the Gaza Strip, a possible anti-tank weapon fired by militants hit a school bus that just minutes before had dropped off 30 children.

Two people were wounded in the attack on the bus and for the next two hours the area came under heavy rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza.(3)

How would Texas respond if drug lords fired missiles and mortars into one of its towns?  Whether you agree with the wars we are in today, most people are honest enough to admit we try not to kill non-combatants.  This is our choice, not something required under the laws of war.  Someone using a child as a human shield is still a legal target if they are or were attacking you.  Same for churches, hospitals or schools, the attacker made it a legal target when they attacked from that site.  Can a doctor or teacher stop an armed madman from using their property?  Maybe not, but if I am under attack, I can’t let their failure stop me from protecting my people.  And with the Palestinians, who voted in Hamas to be their government, I am not very sympathetic.  I remember those peace-loving people dancing in the streets on 9/11.  I know the USA has done terrible things.  I know we have also done much good.  I think any people who celebrate the deaths of innocents are not what I judge to be “good”.

Everybody’s talkin’ bout’ministers,
sinisters, banisters and canisters,
bishops and fishops and rabbis and pop eyes,
and byebye, byebyes

all we are saying is give peace a chance,
all we are saying is give peace a chance,

Gaza residents from the southern city of Rafah hit the streets Saturday to celebrate the terror attack in the West Bank settlement of Itamar where five family members were murdered in their sleep, including three children.
Residents handed out candy and sweets, one resident saying the joy “is a natural response to the harm settlers inflict on the Palestinian residents in the West Bank.”(4)

Consider also, what we think is influenced by our source of information.  (Yes, that includes the pro-Israel writer of the following)

April 11, 2011, Leo Rennert

WaPo coddles Hamas, while making Israel look bad

The Monday, April 11, print edition of the Washington Post carries a brief story about Israel and Hamas moving toward a Gaza cease-fire after four days of cross-border fire exchanges that began when a Hamas anti-tank missile hit an Israeli school bus, critically injuring a teenager.

The Post goes on to report that “Israeli retaliatory air strikes have killed 19 Palestinians,” not bothering to specify that most of them were terrorists. By failing to distinguish between Palestinian civilians and Palestinian combatants, the Post leaves a misleading impression that Israel responded with random strikes that conceivably might have killed only civilians.

The New York Times, whose coverage also tends to be hyper-critical of Israel while sanitizing Hamas, nevertheless in this instance was quite specific in reporting that Israeli fire “killed 18 Palestinians, 10 of whom were militants and the rest civilians, according to officials in Gaza.” The Washington Post, with two full-time correspondents in Jerusalem and one or more stringers in Gaza, was privy to the same information as the Times, yet decided to keep the number of Palestinian terrorist fatalities a deep, dark secret. An omission that opens the way for anti-Israel campaigners to accuse Israel of using disproportionate force.

Having failed to report responsibly about Israeli retaliatory strikes, the Post then fails to give a full account of how each side behaved in the run-up to the expected cease-fire. “No Israeli airstrikes were reported Sunday,” the Post tells readers, omitting that on Sunday — while Israel held its fire — Gaza terrorists still fired about 10 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel,. The New York Times found this newsworthy; the Post excised Hamas’s continued fire from its report. Bad behavior by Hamas, as in this instance, more often than not gets a pass from the Post.(5)

I still think Israel was/is wrong to continue settling in the disputed areas.  I understand it is not likely to make any difference, that they were going to be attacked anyway.  I think if the US were to give them land equal to Israel and relocate their entire population, the attacks would follow.  Why?
Not much point in asking after the thousands of years of fighting.  It takes two to make peace, but only one to wage a war.  The other can choose not to fight, and then die.
And are they not fighting a “strange” war?  If I was a warrior, I would want to kill other combatants.   I would make them my primary target.  Going after women and children just makes them  angry and more determined to defeat me.  So is there a reason for their tactic?  We think Iran is supplying weapons to Hamas, as they are in Iraq.  Seems to me they are trying to wage a war of public opinion, hoping to provoke enough of a response that Israel switches to a full war with the civilian deaths to be used as charges of genocide.  And they appear to be upping the ante.
let me tell you now
Ev’rybody’s talking about
Revolution, evolution, masturbation,
flagellation, regulation, integrations,
meditations, United Nations,
All we are saying [keep talking] is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
Article - Aslan Iran Chaos
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s plan to destroy Israel.

Monday, 21 Mar 2011 01:00 PM By Ken Timmerman

Israeli naval commanders have seized a ship containing weapons to arm terrorists, a ship linked to Iran and further proof of its clandestine arms-smuggling networks.On Tuesday, Israeli naval commanders boarded the Victoria, a German-owned container ship operated by French shipping giant CMA-CGM, some 200 miles off the coast of Al-Arish, Egypt. The Israelis came equipped with a list of 39 containers, which they believed contained weapons bound for Hamas in the Gaza strip. And they were right.

Neatly stacked beneath sacks of lentils and cotton in three of the containers, they found crates full of long-range mortars as well as C-704 radar-guided anti-ship missiles that would have given Hamas the ability to sink Israeli navy ships at distances of up to 35 kilometers.Israeli military spokesman called the Chinese-made missiles “strategic weapons,” and brought the ship into Ashdod for further inspection.

In all, they seized more than 25 tons of weapons they believed were intended for Hamas.Two days later, authorities in Malaysia announced they had seized two containers from on board a Malaysian ship bound for Iran that contained equipment for Iran’s nuclear program.“The parts were labeled as boiler parts,” federal police chief Ismail Omar told the official news agency. “Detailed investigations are being carried out with the help of Interpol and relevant experts.”Security analysts interviewed by Newsmax believe that Israel probably had its own intelligence — possibly satellite photographs — that allowed it to identify the containers with the weapons as they were being loaded onto the A.S. Victoria in Latakia, Syria, before the ship sailed for Mersin, Turkey, and then on to Egypt.The A.S. Victoria loaded weapons in Latakia that were brought to Syria by the two Iranian warships that transited the Suez Canal in February, Israeli officials believe.

It was the first time Iranian warships had transited the Suez Canal since the 1979 revolution in Iran.The C-704 missiles found in the containers are actually an Iranian-made version of the Chinese original known as the Nasr-1. The Chinese set up an assembly plant for the missiles in Iran, according to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). Iran publicly inaugurated the Nasr-1 assembly line in March 2010.(6)

Is this correct?  Are we nearing another Israel/Arab war, perhaps that last war?  I am by no means a military expert, but I see things that make me wonder.  Wasn’t Ahmadinejad the General that led Iran to victory over Iraq?  Marching thousands of women and children at gunpoint ahead of his army to clear mines from their path?  I think we have to give credit where it’s due,  Ahmadinejad  is a madman by our standards, but a successful madman, non the less.  Hitler is proof a madman can be effective.  Do we think Ahmadinejad is not a student of history, unable to plan and act in that light?  He has watched our president sit on the sidelines while Iran endured it’s riots.  Heard that same president publicly call for the US ally in Egypt to step down.  If he is to act against Israel, doing so while Obama is in office is not hard to predict.

Oh Let’s stick to it
Ev’rybody’s talking about
John and Yoko, Timmy Leary, Rosemary, Tommy smothers, Bobby Dylan,
Tommy Cooper, Derek Tayor, Norman Mailer, Allen Ginsberg, Hare Krishna,
Hare Hare Krishna
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

John Lennon

Hezbollah is planning an attack on Western targets, a Lebanese news website reported on Tuesday, basing its claims on information intercepted by a Western intelligence agency.

According to the Beirut Observer article published Tuesday, Western intelligence officials believe Hezbollah intends to strike Western targets, citing the unusual movement of suspected Hezbollah and Iranian Revolutionary Guards operatives.

The report said the intention of such an attack is to divert global public opinion from the indictments expected to be issued by a special United Nations tribunal dealing with the assassination of former Lebanese PM Rafik Hariri.

Lebanese officials and Western diplomats expect the court to accuse Hezbollah members of involvement in the assassination, a prospect Lebanese politicians fear could fuel further tensions.

The Lebanon tribunal, the world’s first international court with jurisdiction over the crime of terrorism, was set up to try those accused over the 2005 bombing that killed Lebanese ex-prime minister Hariri and 22 others.

Hezb’allah is panicking. Since their recent takeover of the Lebanese government, things have not been going very well, They have yet to be able to form a cabinet with their puppet prime minister proving to be unpersuasive. The sealed tribunal indictments – once opened – might precipitate a civil war between Sunni and Shia because the murdered Hariri was particularly beloved among Lebanese Sunnis.

If they feel they have to hit Israelis or other westerners in order to distract the Lebanese population from their traitorous alliance with Bashar Assad of Syria (who probably ordered the hit on Hariri but won’t suffer the consequences due to UN cowardice), they are truly worried that they may be forced to rule Lebanon at gunpoint.(8)

Here in the US and at SUFA have been more interested in our budget battles, of late. Japan has their problems, Schwarzenegger’s mistress has been identified as housekeeper Mildred Patricia Baena.   With all our distractions, is the next Middle East war about to start? I don’t know, but the signs are there. I think when Jesus spoke about turning the other cheek, it was to insult, not against an attack on your life or your family. The bible also speaks about “preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting…

I completed this on April 17, and came across this video the next day. Yes it is Glenn Beck, but it’s only nine minutes..













  1. Common Man says:

    LOF’s article warrants discussion, however I have a simple question:
    “Given your backgrounds, the fact that we don’t have any physical evidence, obama is a liar and there is no body, is he really dead?”

  2. The 2012 election is over now, SUFA folk … Obama did in 3 years what incompetent George couldn’t accomplish in 8 …

    • “President Obama did in 3 years what 8 years of George Bush’s incompetence (including starting a second war that had nothing to do with Bin Laden) could not accomplish. This President deserves major kudos for this accomplishment (and it is an accomplishment).

      It also guarantees his second term. There’s nothing the GOP can do after The Donald made fools of their party (tea partiers included), some lunatics at FOX tried to question the long form birth certificate anyway, and now that Bin Laden is dead.

      Obama and our Special Ops Forces (that Seal Team) kicked ass.”

      Ok Charlie, Obama gets the credit. Can you break down what his war strategy has been for these three years and since you point out the failure of Bush, what did Obama do that was different, that brought this success?

      • Ray Hawkins says:

        I don’t think it guarantees a second term at all. Let’s keep paying 4 bucks a gallon for gas while the economy keeps sputtering and…….

        There is a lot of time until the next election.

        • I think this just shows Charlie still hates Bush more than he hates Obama.

          • Definitely, make no mistake. Bush is a war criminal and an incompetent. Obama is an incompetent (bordering on war criminal).

            • Can you show any proof, or is this just your opinion, an outgrowth of your BushHate syndrome. Bush got the congress and senate to approve his war efforts, does not make it right, but legal. Think the enhanced (torture) interrogation was illegal? Maybe, but how much has continued under Obama? And what led us to OBL? Information provided by said interrogations.

              Why not be a stand-up guy and say Obama got him, his death is a good thing? Leave Bush in retirement.

              • Leave Bush in retirement.

                Maybe if he were in a jail cell for starting two wars; one for absolutely no good reason (as he kept changing the reasons). They’re called war crimes and he was guilty as sin.

            • SK Trynosky Sr says:

              Libya=War criminal.

              War Powers Act, where is congressional approval?


              Two rather large no-no’s

      • Reread the post (where I won’t vote for a president, etc.) or read my posts here (all 14,001 of them). I have no use for Obama or his war strategies or anything else. I’ve also claimed his Bush light (sometimes Bush heavy) … another incompetent as far as workers go … but however incompetent he is at everything else, Bush was more than twice as incompetent … and the fact yous guys continue to try and defend that imbecile actually makes me laugh. Come on, already … the guy (Bush) couldn’t run a lemonade stand.

        • Reread my post. I did not say you liked Obama, just hate Bush more. But you did not answer my question, if Obama is twice as competent, what did he do different?

      • gmanfortruth says:

        Interesting when it’s bad it’s Bush’s fault still, if it’s good Obama takes credit. As Carlie would say Oy Vey. 🙂

        • Let’s play BF for a minute here …

          Afghanistan War, Bin Ladin survives 8 years = bad
          Iraq War, nothing to do with Bin Laden = bad
          Bin Laden is killed under Obama administration = good

          Yep, guess you’re right!

          • We invaded Pakistan, conducted military operations 60 miles from their capitol. Do you really think Flag will agree this act of war was “good”?

            • No, must making the point (good vs. bad) that yous guys can’t stomach Obama getting one thing right.

              • Post it below, and let Flag answer for himself.
                You want to make a case for Obama, write a post about him and why he deserves all or most of the credit. Dazzle us with his leadership of the military.

            • LOI,

              You are correct – this is not a “good”.

              Bin Laden is a murderous criminal.

              Invading Pakistan to murder a murderous criminal may cause far worse consequences then letting a murderous criminal live.

              How would the USA react if Columbia landed troops in Florida and killed a number of “criminals”?

    • Lol, both are incompetent. The only competent people involved was the Seal team that did the hit.

      • I agree … but the plan was under Obama’s administration and he gets the credit. It was planned and executed under his watch.

        • Okay-Woo Hoo for Obama-now lets start drilling for oil-lets do something that will actually help the economy-like cutting spending.

          • “Woo-hoo”? Really?

            I have to say I am smiling on my end at the absolute angst some of yous guys are showing at Obama getting something GREAT accomplished for the country. It makes me wonder who really are the patriots.

            • Charlie, why could you not express your pleasure in Obama’s accomplishment without a shot at Bush? If you want to blame us, then do so for allowing you to shape the conversation.

              • Thanks (again) for making my point. No Obama successes unless we ignore Bush’s mistakes. Blinders … nothing but blinders.

              • USWeapon says:

                Our blinders…. your filters.

                That you must make everything about Bush is far more telling.

        • HI Charlie…you are very wrong in this statement. More later, my intrepid friend. I am still in planning briefings and getting the real facts,,,,not this shit on tv.

          • Good morning, Colonel!

            I see where it is being reported that it was waterboarding that sparked the eventual capture of OBL … according to what I’ve read thus far, KSM and other high ranking AQ officials ignored the name of a guy who was eventually followed … but, KSM was caught in 2003 … the reports today say this operation’s roots began four years ago. Assuming it went back to 2003, that still leaves me a bit suspicious about an intelligence community Bush eventually blamed for going to war with Iraq (WMD). So, either he was a complete moron following other morons and completely lucked out with Obama pursuing Bin Laden from the time he took office or Bush went to war with Iraq for reasons other than WMD and was the genius behind Bin Laden’s eventual death (which seems odd he didn’t want to kill him while still in office).

            I don’t know how Bush gets credit for Bin Laden’s death, except for leaving office and letting much more competent people take over, but that might ring of anti-Bush bias or pro Obama bias. The problem with that bias is I voted for Bush twice (talk about ridiculous and the loss of credibility) and as a true progressive/socialist I have no use for Obama. Bush lost my support in 2006 when it became more than apparent what a complete failure he was (that would be a few years after he launched his brilliant plan to get Bin Laden by way of Obama).

            No matter how you spin this one, Obama is the guy who oversaw the operation, gave the approval and was in office when Bin Laden was killed. Adding Bush to this equation is nothing more than absurd. I doubt Bush himself would seek any credit for this. Cheney, yes; he’d probably say it was his idea to use Obama to get Bin Laden (because that’s what the argument amounts to).

            Bottom line: many here cannot stand the fact it was Obama who FINALLY got him.

            • Terry Evans says:

              It is interesting that anything that is bad=Bush, but anything that is good=Obama in your world. I believe you are a closet Obama lover…

              • A closet Obama lover … now that is funny. There are liberal democrats (so-called liberal democrats) who call me the new voice of right wing America … which only confirms my belief that both sides of the Republican-Democrat argument are so caught up in nonsense, they can’t see the forest for the trees … I poked here about Obama because I knew (maybe I’m enlightened already) that it would stir the pot and I was curious to see how truly patriotic everyone here would be about the death of Bin Laden … while I don’t doubt your collective patriotism at all, I do find it interesting how some can’t permit themselves to be happy about something so significant as the death of Bin Laden.

                For the record (once again), I know I won’t vote Democrat in 2012 the way I didn’t in 2008. I did vote Republican in 2000 & 2004 (much to my embarrassment). I had always voted Democrat before then, but didn’t vote during Clinton’s 2nd term.

                No matter who I support in 2012, it won’t be from one of the two major parties (probably never again) but none of the above precludes me from being happy that Bin Laden is dead and/or that it happened under and because of Obama’s leadership. He took a great political risk and got it right, while Bush entered into a bogus war and diverted our attention from Bin Laden & Afghanistan (why I don’t see how you can give him any credit whatsoever regarding Bin Laden–he seemed to not care as soon as he landed in Iraq).

              • Terry Evans says:

                I have given neither of them credit and will not. The military should get the credit…SHOULD. But with the MSM (and Closet Obama lover Charlie) in the tank for the POTUS, he will indeed garner the lions share of credit.

                I for one am glad this criminal is dead. It matters not who was in the oval office at the time…to me. It obviously does to you…

              • gmanfortruth says:

                The way Charlie is beating this dead horse, one must wonder if he really does have a thing for Obama, you know, that special thing. 😆

      • Common Man says:


        I wonder if we will ever know the name of the Seal that pulled the trigger? I am willing to bet that his commanders and fellow Seals bought him a couple of cold ones upon their return to base.


    • Does that make Bill Clinton incompetent too?

      • Sure does. Politically saavy, but just another republican in drag (incompetent for sure).

        Keep trying …

        • The 2011 Obama golf season is off to a a roaring start, with the president headed out today for the fifth time in as many weeks.

          This is Obama’s 66th time golfing as president and his eighth time this year.

          After a Hawaii vacation session at the beginning of January, this year’s Obama golf season officially got underway with two chilly outings in March. Obama resumed play on April 3, and has hit the links every week since.

          While there are no official statistics being kept, it’s probably safe to say that no president has ever golfed five weeks in a row. It’s not even clear that Dwight Eisenhower, who also loved to hit the greens, ever pulled this off.

          The weather at Andrews Air Force Base, where the president is playing, is a pleasant 60 degrees, with a chance of rain by mid afternoon, though he should be done by then.

          Along with him is his usual posse – junior White House officials Ben Finkenbinder and Marvin Nicholson, and the Energy Department’s David Katz.

          UPDATE: Golf cut short due to chilly weather and rain. Nine holes only.

          • Ray Hawkins says:

            Lot of business gets conducted on the golf course.

            • Including the death of Osama Bin Laden …

              I wonder what “W” was doing when he wasn’t getting Osama Bin Laden? Oh, right, he started a war with Iraq …

              Maybe he should play golf a little more!

              • Terry Evans says:

                Son, I believe you have a severe case of BDS…

              • Terry:

                I voted for the imbecile twice … I don’t have a problem admitting my mistakes … or when somebody I don’t support (Obama–I’m a Nader/Socialist supporter) does something right. How can you begin to knock his getting Bin Laden (unless you didn’t want it to happen under his administration). Bush had his chances … 8 years worth … accomplished nothing but starting another POINTLESS war … Obama got Bin Laden, deal with it.

              • Terry Evans says:

                Show me where I “knocked” it and I will sincerely apologise…just sayin’ that Bush seems to stick in your craw. He’s gone now, let him stay gone.

              • Bama dad says:

                And Obama’s Libya war is not “a another pointless war”?

    • Common Man says:


      If this man gets re-elected it will not be due to this event. It will be because enough people who value government assistance and a more “social” order do so. If that happens then I dare say it will be one more nail in the proverbial coffin.

      Unfortunately what we need to ensure this man is not re-elected is more spending, higher gas prices, more wars, more welfare, higher taxes and higher unemployment.

      If obama and his regime continue accordingly, we have a good chance he won’t be re-elected.


      • He’s a shoe-in, my common man. You can bet dollars to donuts. It’ over … start planning for 2016 and your run against Hillary.

        Watch as Trump (the joke) dumps his plans first …

  3. May 02, 2011
    DNA Confirms bin Laden Killed
    editor’s note
    Osama bin Laden was killed last night after a firefight at a compound outside of Abbottabad, Pakistan. The attack was lead by U.S. Special Forces under the direction of the CIA. ABC News is reporting that a DNA match has confirmed the identity of the leader of al Qaeda and the mastermind of the 9/11 massacres.

    President Obama announced the success of the operation late Sunday evening. Crowds gathered outside the White House in celebration of the death of bin Laden. People sang the national anthem and chanted “U.S.A. – U.S.A.”

    American Thinker will have comments and coverage of the event later in today’s edition.

    • Ray Hawkins says:

      Tsk tsk LOI – that maybe proves that it was a Bin Laden that was killed – not necessarily Osama bin Laden. And a picture could be easily doctored.

      • The “birthers are back!”

        Oh, lord …

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          Just play along Charlie… always gets fun.

          Its also likely that Bin Laden had several body doubles running around. And ask yourself this – where was all his security? This looks “too clean” to have been the real deal. Pakistan wouldn’t set up the real Bin Laden given all the fallout they’d receive from it.

          • Bin Laden might be dead but I would bet alot that he wasn’t buried at sea.

  4. Ray Hawkins says:

    Hey LOI – I thought “turn the other cheek came from Kenny Rogers, not Jesus?

  5. The raid that killed Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was reportedly conducted by the U.S. Navy’s SEAL commandos. White House officials declined to detail the forces in the raid, but they were likely carried to the target in two UH-60 helicopters, which can carry various weapons, more than 10 troops, plus high-tech gear to help the aircraft fly at night. White House officials did say only two helicopters were involved, but additional aircraft likely accompanied them to guard the commandos from counterattacks by jihadis or Pakistani aircraft, or to rescue any troops that might be stranded.

    In September 2010, intelligence officials began an assessment that suggested bin Laden was hiding in a Pakistani compound. By mid-February, the U.S. “had determined there was a sound intelligence basis for this,” said an Obama administration official. From mid-March, the president held five meetings to consider ways “to bring justice to bin Laden,” said the official.

    Several years ago, interrogators had persuaded detainees to reveal an individual who worked as a trusted courier for bin Laden. After several years, officials gradually learned more about the courier, and identified his residence in August 2010, in the town of Abbottabad, about 60 miles north of Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital. The compound is large, and was built in 2005 at the end of a long road. The compound has walls up to 18 feet high, which are topped by barbed wire, interior walls, few windows, and two security gates. Despite its cost, the compound had no telephone or internet communications, and no trash pick-up, even though many people lived there.

    The compound was raided by a helicopter-borne force. Officials shared little about the attack, but noted that the raid was designed to cause little collateral damage. The 40-minute raid killed four other people, including two couriers, one of bin Laden’s sons and a women who was used as a shield. One of two U.S. helicopters was destroyed after it malfunctioned.

    U.S. officials conducted the raid without alerting any Pakistanis.

    Officials did not say if the team consisted of soldiers or intelligence-agents. Bin Laden did resist and was killed in a firefight. The U.S. capture of bin Laden’s body will refute any effort by Islamists to deny bin Laden’s death. It also serves as a symbolic trophy in the decade-and-a-half long war between the U.S. and Islamists. In 1996, and again in 1998, Bin Laden issued detailed religious justifications and his strategy for his war against the United States, which culminated in the 2001 destruction of the Twin Towers.

    In the past, U.S. officials have released pictures of other dead jihadi leaders, including Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, who was bin Laden’s main ally and deputy in Iraq until he was killed by a U.S. airstrike in 2006. U.S. leaders also released photographs of Saddam Hussein’s two sons after U.S. forces killed them in Mosul in 2003.

    Bin Laden’s body will be handled according to Islamic practice and tradition, said a White House official. “This is something we take seriously,” the official said.

    Bin Laden’s death also removed a potential political dilemma for U.S. officials. Had he been captured, officials would have had to decide whether to detain him in Guantanamo or even charge him with murder in a civilian court. Either course would have provided bin Laden with numerous opportunities to plead his case to the Islamic world.

    The raid on the villa likely also yielded a trove of intelligence for U.S. officials. Captured paper records and computers will have to be decrypted and studied, but could identify Al Qaeda sleeper agents, jihadis and wealthy donors in the Arab world.

    The killing of Al Qaeda’s “emir” will be a major help in destroying Al Qaeda, said White House officials. His likely successor, Ayman al-Zawahiri, will likely have difficulty maintaining the group, whose jihadis and donors are mostly Gulf Arabs. Al-Zawahiri is an Egyptian.

    Read more:

  6. Common Man says:


    I really want to hear what USW and D-13 have to say about this. I am sure dead or otherwise UBL will be posting videos and other ASAP if in fact he is not dead. Hell, he may have made a tape months ago just for a circumstance like this.

    If the commanding General of the operation would go on record saying that the news is real and UBL is in fact dead I would be more likely to believe him.

    If it is factual and UBL is dead then obama gets some credit for making the call. That does not mean he should be re-elected. As a matter of fact if he brought all the troops home, and started drilling throughout NA tomorrow, he should still be voted out. The man is not good for America.

    And the “Don” is a joke.

    Ron Paul is a far better choice.


    • My very old, deaf dog is a better choice.

    • I agree he is not good for this country-and there is nothing he can do after 2 1/2 years of his policies that would get me to vote for him. So he’ll get his 15 minutes of good job(or Woo Hoo!) from me and that’s it.

      • Common Man says:

        Although JAC’s dog becoming President is more likely I would vote for obama if he accomplished the following:

        -Cut the Federal Budget in half
        -Brought all the troops home
        -Promoted drilling of oil in NA
        -Stopped all forgien aid
        -Cut taxes in half
        -Abolished the EPA
        -Made SS volentary
        -Closed the Mexican boarder
        -Stopped spending
        -Elliminated the Executive Order

        I would at least consider casitng a vote for him. But that is not a situation I worry about considering.


        • Naten53 says:

          In this country it would take an executive order to ellimate the executive order

      • Woo-hoo! Bin Laden dead after 2.5 years!

        Bush … 8 years … Bin Laden laughed at us …

        Gold course or not, he’s laughing no more.

        • Charlie

          Yes, Obama gets credit. Just as Reagan got credit. Just as Bush I got credit and Clinton got credit.

          You obviously still love to poke people in the nose. But here is a little reality for you.

          Each Administration is not a unique entity unto itself. Sure they have their policy goals and themes. But each inherits the work of the prior Admin and each usually continues things started long, long ago.

          Mr. Obama made the call and he gets credit. And the fall out that will come with it. What that will be we don’t know yet. But he really had no choice. He painted himself into that corner during the campaign.

          The real question is what does POTUS do now that his ONLY clearly stated goal during the campaign, on this matter, has been accomplished. That was my question then and it remains the same today.

          When you set a limited goal on a complex matter it may limit your ability to respond to that complexity at a later time.

          • But he really had no choice. He painted himself into that corner during the campaign.

            Some think he painted himself into a corner regarding support of unions and he sure made a choice there — to ignore his campaign promise to join the lines.

            He chose wisely with Bin Laden.

    • If it is factual and UBL is dead then obama gets some credit for making the call. That does not mean he should be re-elected. As a matter of fact if he brought all the troops home, and started drilling throughout NA tomorrow, he should still be voted out. The man is not good for America.

      It shouldn’t mean he gets elected, but you wanna place a bet on whether he does or not? With our absurd political system as it currently stands, it’ll be between him and the GOP nominee (and right now, that’s a joke no matter who you point to) … Ron Paul has as much a chance as Ralph Nader, but I do wish one of them would win, preferraby Nader (for a true change) …

      • Common Man says:


        Nader is a nut. He is not an advocate of true liberty and freedom.


        • Nader is EXACTLY what his political system needs to shake things up … not to worry, it won’t happen. You’ll have Obama for another 4 years … golf, parties, nobel peace prizes … all of it. It doesn’t make me necessarily happy, but he’s already more effective than Bush in less than half the time.

          • Charlie

            Mr. Obama will go down in flames as the House starts investigating his illegal internet gambling scheme. He may be charged criminally under RICO by the time 2012 rolls around.

            Of course given your admitted background, you will be able to rationalize his activity as “harmless”.

            • Internet gambling scheme? I know nothing of this … but I have to admit, it is “enterprising” … could it be the great socalist (Obama) is a capitalist after all?

          • Bama dad says:

            “but he’s already more effective than Bush in less than half the time.”

            He has spent more money than Bush in half the time, effective no.

    • Good MOrning, CM……please stand by. I will have more later today….possibly this evening. I am not going to speculate on anything right now. I have already found two very glaring errors in the reporting. I am still in some briefings.

  7. Now back to our regularly scheduled article. Obama timed this just to divert everyone’s attention.LOL

    “Our program does not include negotiations with Israel or recognizing it,”
    Israel has stated they will not recognize any Hamas government. It remains to be seen, if the people of Palestine will elect another government that has stated goals of destroying Israel.

    (Reuters) – Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah group inked a deal on Wednesday with bitter rival Hamas to end their long-running feud and form an interim government ahead of elections within a year.

    Israel said the accord, which was brokered in secrecy by Egypt, would not secure peace in the Middle East and urged Abbas to carry on shunning the Islamist movement, which has governed the Gaza Strip since 2007 after ousting Fatah in a civil war.

    Forging Palestinian unity is regarded as crucial to reviving any prospect for an independent Palestinian state, but Western powers have always refused to deal with Hamas because of its refusal to recognize Israel and renounce violence.

    “We have agreed to form a government composed of independent figures that would start preparing for presidential and parliamentary elections,” said Azzam al-Ahmad, the head of Fatah’s negotiating team in Cairo.

    “Elections would be held in about eight months from now,” he said, adding the Arab League would oversee the implementation of the agreement.

    In the West Bank city of Ramallah, Abbas spokesman Nabil Abu Rdainah said the reconciliation was not Israel’s concern.

    “Netanyahu must choose between a just peace with the united Palestinian people … and settlements,” Abu Rdaineh said.

    At news conference in Cairo, where the Fatah and Hamas leaders sat side by side, Ahmad said Palestinians had paid a heavy price for their infighting.

    “We are proud that we now possess the national will to end our divisions so we can end the occupation of Palestine … the last occupation in history.”

    Hamas’ deputy leader, Moussa Abu Marzouk, added: “Our rift gave the occupation a chance. Today we turn a new page.”

    Hamas won the last Palestinian legislative elections held in 2006 and a new ballot is months overdue. Israel is worried such a vote could hand Hamas control of the occupied West Bank, which is run by Abbas and his more secular supporters.

    “The Palestinian Authority must choose either peace with Israel or peace with Hamas. There is no possibility for peace with both,” Netanyahu said in a televised statement.

    The White House said Hamas was “a terrorist organization” and added that any Palestinian government would have to renounce violence. A U.S. official said it would also have to respect past peace deals and recognize Israel’s right to exist.

    Both Hamas and Fatah, however, dismissed Netanyahu’s ultimatum. “Abu Mazen (Abbas) has said we want Hamas, Hamas is part of the Palestinian national fabric,” Fatah’s Ahmad said.

    Hamas spokesman Taher al-Noono also said Israel was “not concerned with Palestinian reconciliation and has been an impediment to it in the past.”


    The surprise accord came against the backdrop of tumult across the Middle East and followed the ousting in February of Egypt’s President Hosni Mubarak, who was a close ally of the United States and had no patience for Hamas.

    “This agreement is possible because the Egyptian regime has changed. The new administration is taking a balanced position,” said Hany al-Masri, a political commentator who took part in talks over the past two weeks that led to the breakthrough.

    Analysts said the uprising in Syria, where part of Hamas’s leadership is based, had also put pressure on the group to try to end its isolation in Gaza, a tiny coastal enclave that borders both Israel and Egypt.

    Ordinary Palestinians have repeatedly urged their leaders to resolve their deep divisions, but analysts thought differences on core issues such as security were too wide to bridge, with Hamas and the Palestinian Authority running separate forces.

    Mahmoud al-Zahar, a senior Hamas leader who participated in the talks, said Wednesday’s deal covered five points, including combining security forces and forming a government made up of “nationalist figures.”

    He said Hamas and Fatah would free respective prisoners.

    Implementation of the accord is due to start following an official signing ceremony in Cairo, expected in early May.

    Abbas is dependent on Western aid, which he has used to build up state institutions ahead of hoped-for independence.

    Peace talks between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization broke down last year and Abbas has been pushing instead to obtain United Nations backing this September for an independent state on all areas Israel occupied in a 1967 war.

    Netanyahu has criticized such a move and is expected to address a joint meeting of the U.S. Congress during a visit to Washington next month where he plans to outline a plan to re-start the frozen negotiations.

    While Fatah has supported the notion of a negotiated peace deal with Israel, Hamas has firmly rejected it and regularly fires missiles and mortars from Gaza into the Jewish state.

    “Our program does not include negotiations with Israel or recognizing it,” Zahhar said in Cairo. “It will not be possible for the interim national government to participate or bet on or work on the peace process with Israel.”

    • gmanfortruth says:

      LOI, Good article 🙂

      I think it’s safe to say that it is very unlikely that we will see peace in the region in our lifetime.

      • What do you think that means for peace elsewhere? Unrest in the Middle East seems to be spreading. As it spreads, does terrorism grow?

        • LOI

          I think that depends on how the rest of the world plays the game. Especially the USA, Russia, England, France, Germany and China.

        • gmanfortruth says:

          The ME is a mess. UBL’s death could stir up some new attacks, but at what level and where is unknown. I don’t think terrorism is much of a problem here, except for the 535 who have offices in D.C..

    • GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — The leader of the Palestinian militant Hamas government in Gaza has condemned the United States for killing Al Qaeda chief Usama bin Laden.

      Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh says the operation is “the continuation of the American oppression and shedding of blood of Muslims and Arabs.”

      Haniyeh told reporters in Gaza on Monday that although Hamas had its differences with Al Qaeda, his group condemns the assassination of “a Muslim and Arabic warrior” and prays that bin Laden’s “soul rests in peace.”

      Hamas has repeatedly said it has no ties to Al Qaeda and that its violent struggle is directed solely against Israel, and not the West at large.

      Read more:

  8. BAGHDAD — The death of an American soldier on Friday made April the deadliest month for U.S. forces in Iraq since 2009, AFP reports.

    According to a statement released by the U.S. military on Saturday, the soldier “was killed April 29 while conducting operations in southern Iraq.”

    The soldier’s death brought the U.S.’ total Iraq death tally in April to 11.

    The last time the death toll was brought to 11 was in November 2009, showing the risks American soldiers still face even with operations officially declared over last summer.

    Of the 11 killed, six died in “non-hostile” incidents, two were killed by a roadside bomb in Numaniyah, Wasit province, and two died in separate attacks in the provinces of Baghdad and Babil.

    Around 45,000 U.S. troops remain stationed in Iraq, primarily charged with training local counterparts. They can, however, return fire in self-defense and take part in joint counter-terror operations with Iraqi forces.

    Since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, Friday’s casualties bring the death toll of American troops in Iraq to 4,452.

    Read more:

  9. Random Thoughts on Bin Laden

    Osama Bin Laden is DEAD === SQUIRREL!!

    Headline: We finally have Justice. Answer: NO! We got revenge.

    Now the Shit is really going to hit the fan.

    Where is Zawahiri????????????

    Obama gets 10 pt bump in the polls.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      Now the Shit is really going to hit the fan.

      Any predictions as to what you think will happen?

      • The GOP upchucks it’s pablum, first and foremost. Like many here, it’s collective stomach experiences political agita … they have NO ONE to run against The One.

        Tell me you’re not going to start complaining about what “might” happen now that the guy you wanted so bad is dead. And yous say I lose credibiliity?

        Come on, fellow AMERICANS … give credit where it’s due … Obama got the bad guy!

        • President Obama had several options for assassinating Osama bin Laden, but did not let preference for one or the other delay an attack, an administration official told The Huffington Post.

          The morning after covert U.S. forces killed bin Laden in a compound Abbottabad, Pakistan, ABC News reported that Obama had passed on a chance to bomb that same compound back in March. According to the report, the president was wary of attacking the location with two B-2 stealth bombers out of concern that it would reduce the building (and all evidence inside) to rubble. The potential for collateral damage — 22 people were inside the compound, including women and children — was also a deterrent, ABC reported.

          An administration source did not refute that such an operation was conceived and scrapped. Politico’s Mike Allen also reported on Monday that the “original plan for the raid was to bomb the house, but President Obama ultimately decided against that.”

          The official did, however, push back against the notion (which could be inferred from either piece) that the president had a chance to kill bin Laden and didn’t pull the trigger.

          “It’s wrong to say it was delayed because of a decision by Obama,” the official said. “They were constantly revising the intelligence and military planning until it was finally ready.”

          In addition to being potentially destructive of both evidence and civilian life, attacking the compound with B-2 stealth bombers was also determined to be operationally risky. The president and his team, instead, asked that the plan be revised to allow for a Navy SEALs unit to be transported in via helicopter. Training for that took time. The Navy SEALs unit “replicated the one-acre compound at Camp Alpha, a segregated section of Bagram Air Base. Trial runs were held in early April,” Marc Ambinder of the National Journal reported.

          • SK Trynosky Sr says:

            Funny how the pres didn’t seem to mind women and children in Khadaffi’s camp. Spare me the Obamashit.

            • I think you’ll have to put those blinders back on, sir … the press is going to lap this one up for many a day … Obama does in 2.5 what Bush couldn’t do in 8.

              Then again, Bush could’ve planned to use Obama to get Bin Laden … that’s always possible …

  10. Random thought on 2012 elections.

    From this past week……….massive amounts of highway construction all over Montana, Washington and Idaho.

    As I stated two years ago. The Stimulus will begin to have real affect on unemployment in 2011 and 2012. Despite the B.S. “Shovel Ready” rhetoric, most of the infrastructure money was designed to impact just before the elections.

    Absent unforseen the unemployment numbers will improve late this year and early next.

    Got to run errands. Back later.

  11. Know this for what it is.

    Whether OBL is dead or not is irrelevant.
    This is all political theater – its purpose it to obscure, deflect, hide things under a smoke screen.

    HufPo proclaims “markets rally with the news of OBL”

    Yep, last night gold dropped 35 and silver dropped 5.

    This morning, both are right back and climbing -again-

    …nothing has changed…

  12. Canine Weapon says:
  13. Sorry, I am just getting caught up in the news.

    Osama bin Laden Buried At Sea; U.S. Considering Showing Photos Of Body To Prove He’s Dead

    This is a joke, right?

    I mean – they are not going to allow any independent viewing of OBL?

    I mean – are they hiding the body and replacing it with photos – where already in the past they have been guilty of doctoring…?

    I mean – are they joking????

    • Like I said….WTH? Why? Why would we leave this “door” open to any scrutiny whatsoever.

      Timing? A week ago? Yesterday? ????? When?

      I want to hear from the Seals. Can you arrange that D13?

      • Mathius says:

        Of course D13 can arrange that. I heard that he and Anita’s step-son were the ones who bagged him.

    • BF a birther after all?

      Even I’m surprised …

    • Picked from another site:

      Buried at sea less than 24 hrs after capture?? Sorry, but this doesn’t even begin to pass the sniff test. Are we supposed to believe that, after having just violated the sovereign territory of a muslim country and executing a leading muslim figure in cold blood, that suddenly the Obama administration had a twinge of conscience regarding respecting muslim tradition??? That suddenly he was worried about what the muslim world would think?? He already had ordered the assassination of Bin Laden, so how could the perception in the muslim world possibly get any worse? Does he think they’ll somehow suddenly respect the USA for “burying” the body within 24 hrs???

      This is beyond ludicrous and so completely incomprehensibl e that Obama needs to go on record ASAP to fully explain the reasoning behind this decision. If Bin Laden has truly been assassinated, the world needs hard, irrefutable evidence, not just the self-agrandizing blatherings of a notoriously poll-mongering narcissist with a long and well-documented track record of misleading the American public.

      • Sorry, but this doesn’t even begin to pass the sniff test

        It never ends … yous just can’t bring yourselves to admit the guy did something right.

        Something tells me he’ll have irrefutable evidence (like his birth certificate some STILL can’t swallow as legit) and he’ll drop it when it’s most politically viable … but the core of impossibles on the right (put a check mark if you’re included) will NEVER believe anything good that comes from their political opponents. The great GOP failed miserably at getting this guy for 8 years … they even started a bogus war in the middle of it … and Obama nailed the guy in 2.5 years …

        ouch …

        • Bama dad says:

          “they even started a bogus war in the middle of it”

          So is this hit against OBL a cover for the “bogus Libyan war?

          • I’d call the Libyan situation a war when we put troops inside Libya but should we kill any innocents with our bombing, etc., then war crimes should be a consideration. If he doesn’t pull out of both Iraq and Afghanistan once and for all (now that OBL is dead), then he’s subject to war crimes there too.

            But he got OBL and will walk back into the white house because of it … the GOP has nothing to respond with … after the birth certificate fiasco and now OBL, forgetaboutit … the GOP is cooked in 2012 …

            • Bama dad says:

              Aerial smart bombs and missiles do not distinguish between “innocents” or those that are guilty. We HAVE killed “innocents” in Libya so are you calling now for Obama’s war crimes trial?

              • I am calling for you to acknowledge that YOUR president did something YOUR last president couldn’t do … he got Bin Laden … a good thing ALL AMERICANS should rejoice in (unless they take issue with killing in general) … you can’t accept this … because? YOUR President is a Democrat. YOUR last president (the imbecile) was a Republican and you refuse to give this President credit where it’s due.

              • Bama dad says:

                “you can’t accept this … because? YOUR President is a Democrat.”

                Go back to mind reading school, as I have not expressed my views on this subject and you know not what I think.

            • Bama dad says:

              War is an openly declared state of organized conflict, typified by extreme aggression, societal disruption, and high mortality.

              What part of the Libyan adventure does not fit the definition of war?

            • Bama dad says:

              “but should we kill any innocents with our bombing, etc., then war crimes should be a consideration.”

              Your statement, my response:

              “We HAVE killed “innocents” in Libya so are you calling now for Obama’s war crimes trial?”

              How does that get us to:

              “I am calling for you to acknowledge that YOUR president did something YOUR last president couldn’t do … he got Bin Laden … a good thing ALL AMERICANS should rejoice in”

              I asked a question, and then looked for an answer, but none was given.

            • USWeapon says:

              “If he doesn’t pull out of both Iraq and Afghanistan once and for all (now that OBL is dead), then he’s subject to war crimes there too.”

              So you are saying that being in those two countries wasn’t a war crime until OBL was dead? So which was it? Was Bush legally, but incompetently, pursuing OBL? Or was he a war criminal, but Obama was not, even after staying in both for several years. OR, if Bush had killed OBL on his next to last day in office and then pulled out the next day you would have been cool with everything?

              Your slip is showing madam.

              • Sweetheart, try and follow this line of debate: The initial war into Afghanistan was a just cause … but once Bush changed direction into Iraq and ignored Bin Laden (after failed attempts at Bora Bora, etc.), both wars became nothing more than criminal (since NOTHING was accomplished in either country except our support of a heroin trade in one and total chaos in the other. Obama picking up where Bush left off is no less criminal since there seems no point to either war anymore. But since he did manage to kill Bin Laden (what was the original reason to go there), I’m willing to give him a pass on Afghanistan if he gets out now (like tomorrow). If he doesn’t, feel free to hit him with war crimes as well … but war crimes or no war crimes, he still managed to do in 3 years what Bush couldn’t do in 8. Why that bothers the right is more than obvious. It seems they leave their patriotism at the door once one of theirs is proved a failure vs. one of the Dems. I don’t give Obama credit for much, but this was brilliant. And it only makes Bush look that much more incompetent than he was.

              • USWeapon says:

                I will try to follow your line of debate… but I, along with all of SUFA, are simpletons in the glowing brilliance of your intellect.

                I asked you to explain… you did. I disagree with your conclusions, but I hear your reasoning. Why would you give him a pass in Afghanistan? OBL wasn’t there, and hasn’t been for many years. He either waged the same criminal war as Bush did, or he didn’t. But let’s not pretend that OBL getting killed has any bearing on what is legal and what is not, what is a war crime or what is not.

                That, sir, would make no logical sense.

                Follow that line of debate…

              • USWeapon says:

                As for your statements about the “right.” I don’t recall seeing all the “righties” over at Fox News eschewing the President in some way. They were all cheering him and giving him atta-boys all day. You jumped in with this claim that questioning anything means we worship Bush and aren’t willing to be ‘patriots’ by bowing at the alter of Obama today. Neither are true. I don’t worship Bush… at all. And I won’t worship at the alter of Obama, either.

                But by all means, keep believing that Obama personally had something to do with OBL ending up with holes in his cranium. I would prefer you show me what he did to accomplish this task that George Bush did not do, since you are so keen on assigning blame and success. Explain to me what was done differently. And remember…. you aren’t talking to some newbie who doesn’t understand how the intelligence community actually works.

      • Picked from another site:

        What’s next for the birthers?
        Uhm, I dunno… perhaps a hood and sheet fashion show?

  14. May 02, 2011
    Now Can We Stop Condemning Israel for Targeted Assasinations?
    Thomas Lifson
    Michael Rubin asks the important question, at Commentary Contentions.

    Perhaps it is time for Americans, Europeans, and their media elite to reexamine their most glaring double standards: If Americans can kill a master terrorist targeting civilians then Israel too should be able to target Hamas leaders in Gaza, Damascus, Oslo, or Dubai, wherever they may be.

    Sadly, the answer is all obvious. When Israel is involved, special standards are invoked that are not asked of any other country. That is, of course, the essence of bigotry.

    • V.H.,

      That is, of course, the essence of bigotry.

      I wonder if you see bigotry anywhere else?

      • Actually, if I had written the article I would have used the word hypocrisy. And I see that all over the place. But I think you have to admit that we demand Israel not do things that we wouldn’t even hesitate to do.

        • VH,
          Ok, hypocrisy. Or Double Standard. The word doesn’t really matter.

          Do you see that “attitude” applied anywhere else?

          • You need to state your point, my friend, I see the possibility of this conversation going a few different ways-so why don’t you point me in the direction you want to go. 🙂 I’m be back later to answer-have to go to my sons for awhile.

            • VH,
              I need to state my point? Says who?

              Ouch! Ok, Ok Anita, I’ll state my point….

              (just saving time!)

              Well it’s Obama obviously (come on – you knew that!) Do you apply the same standard to him as you do other presidents?

              • Wow-I knew it was about Obama ?-My point was the world applys a double standard when they are talking about Israel. How this gets boiled down to a question of how I judge Presidents was not an avenue I expected the conversation to go. But I judge Presidents by their words, how much I agree with them , by their actions and what effect I believe they will have on the country. I’m also sure I judge Democrats a little more harshly-because I judge their policies more harshly. How do you judge presidents?

              • VH,
                Bigotry is a “loaded” word (I know it wasn’t your writing). It just caught my attention.

                Thanks for the honest reply – I’d say your hit it right on the head. All any of us can do is try to judge everyone as honestly as possible, and recognize that we all have some bias.

                I to try to be fair, but recognize my bias.

                And I just reread my question – it was suppose to be more generic – I did not intend to make it personal to you. But thanks again for answering.

              • No problem-have a good night 🙂

  15. 😐

  16. Naten53 says:

    Some Osama thoughts:

    Does anyone remember during Bush when we had our drones making strikes along the border in Pakistan and it was in the media big time about how bad it was?

    Remember Obama continuing the drone strikes but their being no issue?

    Do I remember it correctly that Pakistan was not playing ball with us from the begining and it took a long time for them to even start playing the same game? D13 would you be able to respond to this? Could him being in Pakistan since the begining be the reason it took so long?

    So if Obama took months to take his generals advise about more troops, how long did it take him to make this decision?

    • I love it! Here’s some advice … bend over and take long, deep breaths … try and come to terms with the fact Obama nailed Bin Laden in 2.5 years (as opposed to 8 years of nothing but incompetence and starting a 2nd war that had nothing to do with Bin Laden) … do your best. Think of this site: Stand up for America … come on, Obama is an American (see his birth certificate?) … he got the bad guy … rejoice! Be happy for a change! Be grateful! Stop looking for reasons to make this some kind of failure. There’s no failure in the death of Obama … he’s dead (apparently, much to your chagrin) … what a shame.

      • My mistake. “no failure in the death of Bin Laden” … don’t get too excited now …

      • Naten53 says:

        Wow, I point out how the media chided Bush over drone strikes and not Obama, ask how much of a roll Pakistan has in Osama hiding there for so long, and make a joke about Obama making a slow decision.

        So I guess it is because I am against anything that has Obama involved, think he is not an American, and think the world is worse off with Osama dead. /sarcasm

        For the record I am grateful the mad man isn’t around anymore. And thank the people that planned a successful operation (probably not obama, though I am glad that he finally showed a positive on his record by authorizing it even though he campaigned on bringing home the troops), and worried about the precedent we set (operation into Pakistan without their knowledge)

        • Naten53,

          probably not obama, though I am glad that he finally showed a positive on his record by authorizing it

          Actually, this is at least 2 for 2.


          even though he campaigned on bringing home the troops

          No, he campaigned to end the war in Iraq and focus on Afghanistan and OBL


          worried about the precedent we set (operation into Pakistan without their knowledge)

          He also said he would do that on the campaign trail.


          Not a bad day, hey!?!?!?!

  17. Another way to look at this (the death of Bin Laden) is …

    The Capitalist Bush failed miserably … while (according to most of yous here), the socialist accomplished the goal.

    Capitalism = Failure
    psuedo socialism (at best) = Success

  18. I don’t know why I am going to bother, but here goes anyway.

    Yes Charlie, Obama gets the credit as Commander-in-Chief for ordering the attack that got the kill.

    But Obama didn’t “get” bin Laden, the United States military did and they’ve been chasing the sob for almost 10 years. The true credit is theirs alone.

    Bush “failed” and now can we bring out troops home and stop the insanity of these wars? Likely not, since now O believes he has to save the world where Bush failed to.

    • Yes Charlie, Obama gets the credit as Commander-in-Chief for ordering the attack that got the kill.

      He apparently was involved in a two year plan but we can ignore that too if you like. Your statement above is good enough for now. And yes, it would be nice if these insane wars (started by Bush) finally came to an end and we bring all our troops home. Not to worry, Plainly, I’ll be all over Obama’s case again as soon as he tries to defend his ignoring unions in Wisconsin, etc., but it is very funny watching yous guys here squirm over this wonderful American victory. It seems as though many of you can’t stand the American success story FINALLY getting Bin Laden is.

      • Charlie, I have nothing to squirm about. I hated Bush from the beginning – and I guess I get to claim to be smarter than you as I never voted for the sob.

        I’m glad bin Laden is toast, it’s about time as he made this nation look foolish being able to outrun the reach of the US for almost 10 years. His death brings a morale boost to the psyche of the majority of America, something akin to the bombing of Tokyo by B-25’s early in WW2.

        Personally I have enough reason to believe that were they leaders of any second or third rate pisspot nation both Bush and Obama would be dragged before the UN World Court and tried for crimes against humanity. But, since they’re “leaders” of the “most powerful nation” on Earth they can get away with any crimes they choose to commit.

        • and I guess I get to claim to be smarter than you as I never voted for the sob.

          This should not be considered an achievement, Plainly. Most people and small animals are …

          But you have to admit, most people here don’t seem to be willing to give credit where it’s due …

          On the other hand, I have no problem with both of them being charged with war crimes (Obama starting domani if he doesn’t announce we’re now withdrawing our troops) …

          • Some people are questioning whether we are being told the truth-a reasonable reaction after all the times we have been lied too. Others are questioning the advisability of burying him at sea or if he was buried at sea. Some give him credit-some wouldn’t give him credit for anything. And some like me-give him credit but it simply doesn’t override the negative. You on the other hand-just like to stir the pot -by speaking in a broad generalization’s about SUFA -which you might take note of the fact that you are a part of SUFA.

            • You on the other hand-just like to stir the pot

              You got me, VH … but it is weird how fast those here question the validity of anything positive about Obama (like his being an American citizen …). How willy do those who did so feel now? If not silly at all … ?

              • I suspect they don’t feel silly at all-Obama could have stopped the escalation of this-for a few bucks -he choose not to-actually he spent millions-not too. I wonder did our tax dollars pay for all this silliness because Obama was too stubborn to nip it in the bud. Because no matter how much one wants to deem this silly-it could have been true and that is exactly the suspicion that Obama’s actions caused and I believe intended to cause. So you want to call it like it his-blame it on Obama. He’s supposed to be the President of the US, a responsible adult, not a petty little jerk..

          • (Obama starting domani if he doesn’t announce we’re now withdrawing our troops) …

            You have to wait first, why? Obama ordered air strikes in Libya – in violation of US law – that have killed civilians; Obama continued the authorizations to violate the borders of a sovereign nation to conduct military air strikes and ground operations (Bush started them) – which could, should they choose to do so – be declared acts of war by Pakistan. Also, civilians/non-combatants were killed in some of these operations.

            If you want him for war crimes there is ample reason right now.

            • Go for it. I have no problem with that.


              8 YEARS OF ABSOLUTE FAILURE … okay, I’ll stop yelling now. No matter how you spin it, my brother … Obama got Bin Laden and Bush was a TOTAL FAILURE (couldn’t resist–the voice went up another notch).

              Obama = accomplished the goal
              Bush = accomplished failure

              • Well sure, if that’s all you want – I’ve already done that.

                But now, should we give Bush credit for starting the fight in Afghanistan that had the military forces present for the operation that got bin Laden when ordered to by Obama?

                Hell, I don’t care who you pat on the back. it’s over, hurrah he’s dead.

                As a side note I should say that it is my attitude (pleased) that he is dead that proves my own point to BF that we will always need/have some government since my human behavior lets me be pleased at the violence initiated against another which – under ZAP – is evil, is it not BF? (or have I overlooked some aspect that makes this fall into a self-defense category?)

      • USWeapon says:

        “He apparently was involved in a two year plan but we can ignore that too if you like.”

        Oh how little you know. I will enlighten you later. Your nonsense today is hysterical. But way off point.

  19. Mathius says:



    This is so sad.. I’m sorry for your loss, D.. my thoughts are with you today.

    Please let me know if there is anything I can make this difficult time easier for you.


    Sorry, Charlie, guess Bush and Obama get to share the credit.

    “The officials provided details on the origins of the operation and the raid that led to bin Laden’s killing:
    • Four years ago: Officials uncovered the courier’s identity.”

    Whoops, that was while Bush was in office…

    “• Two years ago: Investigators identified areas of Pakistan where the courier and his brother lived.
    What was Pakistan’s part? Inside the place bin Laden was killed Hideout wasn’t remote cave after all The life of Osama bin Laden
    Osama bin Laden
    Al Qaeda
    U.S. Navy SEALs
    • August: The residence of the courier and his brother was found in Abbottabad, 30 to 35 miles north of Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital.
    • September: The CIA worked with President Barack Obama “on a set of assessments that led it to believe that in fact it was possible” bin Laden may be at the compound in Abbottabad.
    • February: U.S. officials concluded there was a “sound intelligence basis” for pursuing bin Laden at that location.
    • March and April. Obama held a series of National Security Council meetings “to develop courses of action to bring justice to Osama bin Laden.” There were at least five NSC meetings — March 14, March 29, April 12, April 19 and last Thursday.
    • Friday. Obama gave the final order to pursue the operation.
    • Sunday. After months of decision-making and planning, a U.S. military team conducted a small helicopter raid on the compound. The officials did not provide a breakdown of team members, but a senior U.S. defense official said U.S. Navy SEALs were involved in the operation.”

    • Whoops, that was while Bush was in office…

      Yeah … and your point is? He was even more incompetent than we knew? Okay, I agree. Bush knew and did what?

      Oooops, nothing …

      • I give up.

        No one could ever convince you of anything that you don’t already believe. It’s amazing…

        • I win?


          • Yes, Charlie, you win. Because when the economy is not doing great it’s because Obama inherited it from Bush (even three years later). Then when Bin Laden is killed, it’s all because of Obama even though the information was gathered mostly during Bush’s presidency.

            How stupid we all must be not to see it…

    • JB,
      So you want to give Bush credit for something “good” that happened 2+ years after he left office?

      Do you also blame him for some of the “bad” things happening 2+ after he left office?

      • As a matter of fact, I do. Bush and his congress increased spending at a reckless pace, started wars and didn’t raise revenue to compensate and allowed irresponsible financial practices to continue. All of this contributed to our current fiscal crisis. Is it all the republicans’ fault? No. Do they share the blame. Of course.

        In the same way, they share the responsibility of gathering intelligence that was used in the assassination of Bin Laden.

        See where those presumptuous veiled insults get you!

        • News Flash!!!!

          Bush gets Bin Laden!!!

          Even Rush Limbaugh congratulated Obama … but not some at SUFA …

          • Good frickin grief, Charlie. Read my comments,

            “guess Bush and Obama get to share the credit”

            “they share the responsibility”

            Yes, Obama gets credit for killing Bin Laden.

            What you want to see is all of the credit given to Obama and Bush to be spat on.

            • Actually, I was having fun, but now that you’ve blown your top, how does George Bush get any credit for this? You point to 4 years ago … all that tells me is he did NOTHING when he could have. And that this guy (Obama) did do something.

              Good friggin’ grief … there’s no sharing killing Bin Laden. Bush started a 2nd war, diverting attention from getting Bin Laden, then put us through 8 years of absolute frustration, and now you want to credit him with something? Credit him with being the biggest imbecile to ever sit in the oval office but you can forget giving him any credit for Bin Laden. As they say in the south: That dog just won’t hunt.

        • JB,

          See where those presumptuous veiled insults get you!

          Feeling a little paranoid today? After all, if Obama can track down Osama bin Laden hiding in Pakistan, I’ll bet he can track you down too!! 😉

          “Presumptuous”??? Of course – that’s what we all do here!!

          “Veiled”??? Oh come on, please show me how I could have been more obvious??? 🙂

          “Insults”??? No, we’ve been listening for the past year as people here say “you can’t blame Bush anymore”. If he can’t be blamed anymore, then he doesn’t get credit.

          And vis versa.

  21. BF: You are correct – this is not a “good”.

    Oy vey …

  22. LOI

    Nice article. Unfortunate timing but good piece and good questions.

    I happened to hear Beck on radio last week talking about changes in Turkey. While his focus was on the moves there towards embracing the radical Islamic factions what struck me was a comment about Turkey wanting to become THE player in the region.

    This could actually slow the Iranian moves in my view. While they may claim a common religious based purpose at their core these countries remain adversaries based on their original identity. In my humble opinion.

    So just as tribes are important, so are the differences between the Turks and the Persians. It is possible we could see a decentralizing of power in the region which would prevent the Last War against Israel that many expect.

    Unless the west misplays their hand badly we could see the middle east borders realigned along their more natural lines based on ancient tribes and associations. Even Iran could struggle to maintain an “Iranian” nationalism.

    In the meantime, as you portray things will continue to heat up in the region. The Saudis are in for some real trouble I think.

    I anxiously await comments from D13, USW and even the Flag on the whole situation. My knowlege is academic with no personal experience in the region to draw from.

    • Thanks JaAC & GMan. After the effort of researching and writing an article like this, without the military background, it’s always a little scary to put yourself in everyone’s sights. And then to have Charlie hijack half the thread, not to discuss OBL and what that might mean, but to drag everyone into his “I hate George Bush” rant, and attack other posters for not agreeing with him. Makes me talk to myself a little.


  23. Bin Laden burial at sea.

    The minute I heard this all I could think of was that movie Transformers.

  24. Interesting first reactions from officials in Pakistan

  25. I wish to give my apologies if my comments appear testy and disgruntled today. My mood is not very good. Last night our 1 1/2 month old lamb that we were raising (since her birth) suffered a case of bloat that took her life. I was unable to save her with the treatments available and I feel pretty miserable today.

    So, if I step out of line – I do apologize.

  26. Plainly

    As a side note I should say that it is my attitude (pleased) that he is dead that proves my own point to BF that we will always need/have some government since my human behavior lets me be pleased at the violence initiated against another which – under ZAP – is evil, is it not BF? (or have I overlooked some aspect that makes this fall into a self-defense category?)

    Do you need to do evil to stop evil?

    ZAP is not pacifist. Self-defense is a corner stone to the principle.

    But when do you need the legitimacy to attack non-violent people so to protect yourself from violent people?

    • I understand that it is a corner stone to the principle, hence why I asked if I am interpreting it correctly.

      If so that would mean that violence was initiated on bin Laden and that would equal an evil act.

      • Plainly,

        Can you justify the attack under the CPD* doctrine?

        (Clear and Present Danger)

        **Keep in mind he was in a country far, far, far away.

        • Him personally – no. He wasn’t a clear and present danger.

          Therefore I would presume it to be an evil act under the ZAP doctrine.

          Which would lead me to question whether or not a person who plans and sends forth those who initiate violence would be/could be subject to acts of self-defense against them?

          • Plainly,

            I can conceive of sufficient argument that a person who commands, directs, incites, aides, and/or funds terrible violence could be declared a CPD.

            • The trap being deftly set and hidden in the path, the Pirate retreats into the dark forest to see who is the first victim.

            • Then with that being possible under the doctrine for a person who can/does I would easily say that bin Laden was a clear and present danger.

              I could follow this discussion with many different shades of questions to find the parameters of of ZAP and CPD, but I doubt this thread is the proper venue to be discussing it since it – like the whole bin Laden discussion is way off topic.

              Some day the right thread will come along and I can chase the rabbits all day.

  27. Plainly,

    Then with that being possible under the doctrine for a person who can/does I would easily say that bin Laden was a clear and present danger.

    Then you will equally have to agree so is Obama and Bush, and others.

    • Yes sir, I would – and without a doubt would, at different points in my life, add myself to that list.

    • Also, then I would wonder at what point said “leaders” no longer become legitimate under CAP doctrines?

      (I’m sorry LOI – I’m weak and can’t stop myself it seems from continuing my hijack of your topic)

  28. Canine Weapon says:
  29. Would love to have a body languague analyst take a look at this video. Could Brennan be any more uncomfortable? Hmmmmm

  30. gmanfortruth says:

    After catching up, I hope that USW keeps this article up for awhile so IT can be discussed. Loi deserves that and there is much to learn on the subject matter. As things continue to change in the ME, this is a good topic, which could lead to more topics down the road.

    Charlie, Congradulations, you have managed to impersonate Chris Matthews and Rachel Maddow in one single day. I’ve never seen anyone do it so well. I hope the mulitple orgasms wash up nicely, or it’s a waste of a good pair of pants. Crap, you’re better than this. At least stick with the Ron White stuff, at least that’s funny.

    Today, hopefully, many people found closer in their lives, which is far more important than anything. These people struggled for almost a decade with this. Bin Laden is dead, thanks to our military experts and by our President showing some gonnads for a change. Great job Obama! Too bad the economy is going to screw you out of 4 more years. You will not be remembered for this act, but rather for being in charge when the dollar dies, way to go slick!

    • Mathius says:

      Well that was almost a compliment..

    • Great job Obama!

      And you, Gman, will be remembered for this line when my new hero and star of my next mob book, President Obama, wins hands down in 2012. But I think you’re confused about “slick” … that was Willy. Obama will be known as the “terminator” … and lest I not forget my Bush plug … “the fumbler” …

  31. Ironic that you (USW) would find “filters” in a statement about Obama nailing Bin Laden. There’s no reason to filter anything. He got the guy. Did it in less than 3 years. How one finds fault with that suggests discontent with the facts (no more Bin Laden). The other fact, Bush had 8 years to do the same and didn’t … well, it’s a fact, too.

    Any suggestion that Bush was part of the capture seems, at best, far reaching at this point.

    • USWeapon says:

      Your misunderstanding….

      I see filters as in you see everything through a filter of George Bush, which leads you to make ridiculous statements that make you look foolish.

      • I look foolish because Bush took 8 years to accomplish nothing and Obama killed Bin Laden in 2.5 years?

        That’s an interesting theory. Foolish, too, but that’s pretty much a common thread on this subject.

        • gmanfortruth says:


          Pics of dead UBL = 0
          Videos of dead UBL = 0

          So now you trust government to tell the truth.
          So now the MSM tells the truth.

          Please, at this point it is all words. He has deemed dead now 9 times since 2002. By Madelein Albright no less in 2004.

          Geez, other than words from the press and the Prez, who aren’t very truthful as has been proven time and time again, what do you have? NOTHING!

          • Gman, if this turns out to be a scam, I’d want to see Obama impeached … but I have a funny feeling his birth certificate release was timed just ahead of this operation. He had nothing to lose if it didn’t work. You guys are barking up another tree (the birth certificate made anyone doubting it look the fool) … I seriously doubt this is a ruse … and when it’s proven (if yous can ever accept it), you’ll look more the fool for doubting it. And that’s why he’ll walk back into the white house … because all the GOP can come up with are fools.

            I’m just sayin’ …

            • lol….dang – you post at the same time I do.

            • gmanfortruth says:

              Charlie, My big red friend 😆

              This should have never been a left/right issue in this country, ever! The most wanted man in our nations history, suppossedly, was killed by US troops after a long hunt. Why must this be a political issue? For the sake of the story, our troops did their job, as trained. Obama went golfing. In 1990, our troops removed Iraq from Kuwait, I don’t know what Bush I did cuz I was busy over there.

              Obama let them do their job, much better than the politicians did during VN, or so we think. Let’s get the proof, which might take two years, and see what happens.

              They are all frauds in DC! You know this yet quack all day long about a guy you don’t like. OY VEY!

              • I do quack, don’t I?

                Actually, Gman, I was totally having fun with this today because i figured most of yous would get batshit over it. And most of yous did. But this constant need for verification is a bit overdone (why you’ll lose the presidential in 2012). But should it be a fraud, then I’d clamor for his impeachment … seriously, though, you really think that kind of an operation could be a fraud with today’s technology? With all the leaks and opportunities to squeal for cash? Capitalism at its best, mind you … profit wherever it can be made.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                TO answer your question, “you really think that kind of an operation could be a fraud with today’s technology?”

                Where’s the technology to prove it? Not even a picture. Everyone of the major players have had their pictures shown, and in most cases, the bomb videos that took them out. What’s up here, nothing, no pics, no videos, no nothing, just words from people who have a bad habit of lying.

        • Charlie,

          Has Gman given you something you aren’t sure how to chew?

          Cmon, don’t make me lose the bet.

          • Huh? Want me to be candid? Sure, why not. You guys are desperate for Obama to look bad and can’t take his MAJOR success with Bin Laden. It happens to be a success that Bush turned into a full blown disaster (Iraq) and NEVER getting Obama.

            But I’m sure USW will “enlighten” me tomorrow by showing how Bush used Obama to do his bidding.

            Yeah, right … keep dreaming.

            • I not desperate for anything. Ya see Charlie I don’t have any disbelief of this story. If it is then show me the evidence and let me weigh that.


            • gmanfortruth says:

              Charlie, I want this to be true and verified! I want this success for eveyone who died trying to get it and all the families that lost so much because of UBL. Don’t get me wrong, but the facts are not agreeing with the stroies

              • What will do that for you (verify it)? Something tells me you’d have to have seen it (which you may, I wouldn’t doubt it was filmed). But then you’ll think it was Obama’s hollywod friends … oy vey.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Bro, When the Army girl was rescued in Iraq in 1990, it was on TV within hours. When Hussien was captured it was on TV within hours. It’s been 24 hours since the operation, nothing! I do know alittle about how this works, if it was true, it should be released. This is the MOST WANTED MAN in our history, it should be on every network and all ove the internet, but nothing.

                Take this for what it’s worth, without the video that exists, if it’s true, they prove nothing! I saw better intel in my daily briefings in Saudi, that were on TV that day than we’re seeing now! There are numerous Washington sources that have reported him dead since 2002, show me the head, then I will believe.

        • USWeapon says:

          What is foolish is to believe that George Bush or Barrack Obama had much of anything at all to do with what happened in Pakistan. But so long as you want to pump up your Obama-meter, knock yourself out. But your jumping to conclusions about my position or what I have to say as soon as I find time isn’t really doing anything other than inflating your ego 😉

          • USWeapon,
            I disagree. A good leader sets the objectives, assembles the correct team to fulfill those obectives, gives the team the resources they need to be successful, makes good decisions when necessary, and lets the team do their job.

            A not-so-good leader “doesn’t”. And we all see plenty of examples of this everyday.

            • For a guy with so much military experience, I don’t see how you can deny an executive order was necessary to set the wheels in motion. Yet you can’t see that. Obama doesn’t give the order, it doesn’t happen. He did and it happened. What’s so confusing about that? My ego is pumped a bit higher every time you try to drive around the 8 gazillion pound elephant in the room (a dead bin laden). No order, no death. Simple math.

          • I will have to side with Todd and Charlie this time. This operation required Presidential level authority since we – once again – chose to violate the sovereignty of a foreign nation we are not at war with. That means to me, in my military experience of along ago, that there were briefings of the operation and Obama had to give the final go order.

            And, if we’re being honest, we always know that the credit goes to the commander and the blame for any screw ups too.

            As it has always been, so shall it always be.

  32. Bottom Line says:

  33. I have a photo . . . It may not be the real Usama Bin Laden, but it is gruesome as all hell. The subject in the photo is dead.

    I have also seen an Islamic beheading film. It is all over the internet.

    I will not post either one.

    Usama Bin Laden is now Usama Bin DEAD!

    Now bring all American service personnel back home!

    • Update on that photo; I have a friend who is very good wit photoshop and he showed me exactly how that photo was done. It is definitely a fake, and that is one reason I have not posted it. As a matter of fact I have deleted it from my computer files.

      Just thought I would let you all know.

  34. Bama dad says:

    Good article on the timeline leading to OBL death.

    • I’m mistaken. It was Clinton and Bush!

      While the killing of Osama took a decade and involved three presidents and thousands of people, it was Obama who gave the order that ultimately led to the terrorist’s death. It was Obama who announced the news last night. And it will be Obama who benefits most from a sense that he did what he said he would do.

      Then again, Brenner denied the waterboarding info this morning on Morning Joe …

      • Three Presidents? All Clinton did was launch one, repeat ONE cruise missile at an abandon and empty camp. Obama just happened to be the POTUS when intel had enough evidence to warrant a strike. Bush just happened to be the POTUS when 9/11 hit.

        Please do not give credit to any one of these idiots, it was the U.S. Military and the CIA who found and killed Usama Bin Laden.

        NOT Barack Hussein Obama.

  35. LOI

    Remember my comments about Turkey yesterday?

    Well look who is taking a lead today? From the NYTimes:

    Turkish Leader Says Qaddafi Must Step Down Immediately

    BENGHAZI, Libya — In his harshest comments to date on the situation in Libya, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey, a key regional power broker, told reporters in Istanbul on Tuesday that Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi must “immediately step down.”
    Turkey has historic and business ties to Libya and during the more than two-month long conflict has tried to act as an intermediary between Colonel Qaddafi’s government and rebels seeking his ouster. As a result, each side has accused Turkey of favoring the other, or of hedging its bets.
    But on Tuesday, Mr. Erdogan appeared to draw a line, telling a news conference that Colonel Qaddafi had violently resisted calls for change and must leave power for the good of the country and the Libyan people.

    • I can see where Turkey making a power move could be a good thing to stop Iran but I don’t know much about Turkey-most of what I’ve read said that Turkey was becoming for Islamified by the day.

    • I’m just not sure how to consider what direction all of this will play out to. If we see more radical Arab governments rise in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, etc., I would wonder whether these will be the new leading nations in the next round of the “Destroy Israel” club from the 60’s and 70’s?

      Only time will tell us if the prospects of peace in the Middle East has advanced as far as it ever will go.

    • I think somebody might be getting ambition.

  36. Okay, I’m out of the closet this morning. Obama rocks! He rolls! He orders this hit on Bin Laden!

    And he’s got a gambling scheme running? Obama should be upped to underboss at least!

    • gmanfortruth says:

      He’s gambling that the picture he releases will be believed. We shall see. Get back in the closet, and come back out as our red Charlie, he was more tolerable, 🙂

      • No way, Gman. I have a book in this now. Don Obama. First he took the white house … then D.C. … then the Bronx!

        Brenner: “I think we have him, Don Obama. Should we go for it?”
        Obama: “What the son-of-a-bitch. Make sure they take the body … and don’t forget the canoli.”

    • Charlie

      I agree he should be the CRIME BOSS.

      Aside from ordered hits and gambling schemes he wasn’t eligible to hold the seat of POTUS anyway.

      Given his disregard for the Constitution and his associates it seems mob boss would be at least a legitimate role for the man.

      • The ultimate leader … a guy who isn’t even born in the U.S., gets the majority of the voting public to vote him into office, then runs a bookmaking office out of the white house and has bad guys whacked at will.

        What a super hero he must be. I say we amend the constitution and make him King!

        • Charlie

          I didn’t say he wasn’t born in the USA.

          I said he wasn’t eligible. But I admit that was to get your attention. The more accurate statement would be:

          There is legitimate dispute as to whether he is eligible.

          What does the term Natural Born Citizen mean Charlie?

  37. Who wants to bet the picture, if released, will raise cries of “Photoshop”?

    • Bama dad says:

      That picture of Clinton is priceless, what was that about a phone call in the night when she was running?

      • Bama

        Funny, I thought the same thing when I saw this yesterday.

        The take by the lefties was Hillary was realizing any chance of her running in 2012 just evaporated.

    • Charlie….you are not going to photo shop a shot to head by a sig shooting black talon teflon coated hollow points….what is the use? There would be nothing left to photo shop.

  38. Okay guys-Yesterday was understandable-Bin Laden had just been killed. But today is a new day and this thread is about Israel and and Middle East-WE SHOULD Get back to the article. Or maybe USW can open another page and put the article up there.

    • I agree. But I am waiting for BF, USW and D13 to weigh in a bit before chasing much more.

      But how about you V? What are your thoughts on the subject?

      • V.H., JAC

        I have little interest in the machinations of nations 2,000 miles away.

        • Mathius says:

          Riiiggggghhhhhtttt… because what happens over there could never affect us over here. We’re soooo far away.

          It’s not like unrest over yonder can jack up oil prices which severely impacts the domestic economy and means that your Honda Civic costs $87 to fill up.

      • Many and varied-I see the situation as an ongoing war. All the discussions about peace and borders is almost silly, not because it’s funny but because we are talking about land being occupied and coming to agreements when the parties involved are fighting an ongoing war and trying to survive. I suspect they both need to actually stop fighting and declare peace before any negotiations have a chance.

  39. Mathius says:

    Well this is terrifying..

    I tried it on a few people here just to check it out.. seems I was readily able to find home address, phone numbers, names of spouses, etc.

    I saw your (you know who you are) very pretty white house with the large porch, red shudders and attached 2-car garage, and it gave me your wife’s name too. I imagine that if I were willing to buy a subscription, there’d be a lot more information available. All this just by typing in a name, Username, email address, or phone number.

    I see that another person on this site used Trip Advisor regarding a trip to Romagna and has a Digg profile with 20 submissions.

    It seems that I’m a ghost due to my common name. But this is crazy. (Especially when combined with Zillow). I know that a lot of this information is dated or inaccurate but still…

    My (very conservative) co-worker thinks there should be a law against this – this is the same guy who thinks that government is too invasive and should get out of the way of business. He declared this to be a “liberal” site, though I’m not sure why “sociopathic capitalist” wouldn’t be a better descriptor.

    I’d love to hear some feedback on the privacy ramifications of this kind of thing and what, if anything can/should be done about it?

    • Mathius

      I tried searching a few names and get nothing unless you subscribe. So I don’t know how you could get information without paying the money.

      Not sure why this is terrifying. It makes me uncomfortable but the sources for the information are all public domain. These guys just created a single source point that connects all the other public sites.

      Moral is don’t put all your stuff out there if you don’t want it out there.

    • Bama dad says:

      Between me and my children they are less than 50% correct on the data they let you see.

      • Mathius says:

        I generally agree.. though this will only get better over time. More data and more accuracy is inevitable.

        Even at 50%, I’m not entirely comfortable with strangers and casual acquaintances being able to pull up so much information so easily.

        In my day, if you wanted someone’s private information, you had to know where to look and work hard to dig it up!

        • I have stopped being very concerned about this considering the amount of data stored on everyone by every conceivable agency or business. Operations like this one are providing an aggregation service to make the hunting up of data easier.

          The true issue will be when someone uses what they learn from these services and it is not associated with the right person. The lawsuits will likely start flying then, dragging services like this into court as one of the defendants.

          Unfortunately by the time it is over that will not correct the damage done to the wronged persons reputaion.

    • Terry Evans says:

      It is a bit…strange when you type your own name in it and it produces a picture of your home…my mobile phone number…wife’s name and mobile phone number…

    • I don’t like it-there’s my house, my address, my phone number-my kids name who still lives at home and you don’t even have to map it out yourself-a map is included. And my house better be worth more than they state or I’ve lost more money than I thought 🙂 and my age-these people are just rude 🙂 🙂 . The internet is a combination of a blessing and an evil all mixed up in one.

      • Mathius says:

        Check out your home on they tend to be better (though not perfect) at calculating home values.

        Note, by the way, that they may have all kinds of extra information on your house, including purchase price, mortgage payments, property taxes, etc.

  40. Very long and a little harsh in the beginning but interesting and one man’s opinion
    May 03, 2011
    A Palestinian State: the U.N. Gambit
    By Jerrold L. Sobel
    As most people following the Middle East conflict know by now, in abrogation of the Oslo II Accords, the Palestinians will be going to the U.N. in September, 2011 seeking unilateral state recognition either from the Security Council or if need be, by circumvention of that body in favor of the General Assembly. With the same contempt for agreements Muhammad had at Hudaibiya, matched by Hitler at Munich in 1938, Abbas senses the pendulum of history swinging in his favor. In lieu of direct negotiations with Israel, the nominal leader of the PLO has sat back, let the Obama administration do his bidding, and has become accustomed to garnering concessions less reciprocation with any of his own. Why should his U.N. gambit be any different? Let’s examine this question a bit later.

    Frustrated by continuous Soviet vetoes in the Security Council throughout the early 50’s the United States played a leading role in adopting resolution 377 A (V), known as “Uniting for Peace.” Simply put, the resolution states that in lack of Security Council unanimity the General Assembly (GA) can be called into session, consider a matter, and make recommendations to the membership on collective action. Having had a distinct majority in the GA prior to the de-colonization of Asia and Africa, Uniting for Peace made sense to the U.S., particularly during the Korean conflict. In recent years res. 377 has played into the hands of Arab foreign policy to the detriment of both Israel and the United States. Fortunately, from a legal standpoint, in and of itself, the resolution is not binding. It clearly states, “the General Assembly shall consider the matter immediately with a view to making appropriate recommendations” (my emphasis).

    If push comes to shove, and the GA votes on Palestinian statehood, in terms of international relations, it admittedly would not be a good thing for either the U.S. or Israel. For starters, it is antithetical to the foreign policy of the Obama administration which reluctantly will be forced to use its power of veto against Palestinian statehood in the Security Council — a move the President wishes to avoid so as not to ruffle the feathers of the world community, a community of nations for reasons not short of anti-Semitism continuously turns a blind eye to historical Arab/Palestinian incitement and provocation, yet has no problem castigating the Jewish state for responding in her own defense.

    Getting back to the question of why un-reciprocated Israeli concessions will stop at this point is quite straightforward. If the Palestinians opt for a unilateral declaration of statehood, Israel will be released from all obligations, including those signed at Oslo II with the deceased terrorist, Yasser Arafat. Such a declaration would also free Israel of any responsibility in the Gaza Strip. The dispute would now morph into a conflict between two states rather than an occupier (my emphasis) and an occupied entity. Israel would no longer be required to allow passage of personnel and material over what would become an international border. Since under any circumstances, Hamas, sworn to the destruction of Israel, will continue its hostility, Israel under the U.N. Charter would have legal cover to silence the incessant aggression she has suffered for so long since mistakenly turning Gaza over to the Palestinians. Even Haaretz, the left leaning Israeli newspaper, on Sunday featured an article by Shlomo Avineri stating the obvious. Even if direct negotiations miraculously began again, “the prospects for peace are nil.” A prophetic statement indeed, since the following day it was learned that Fatah and Hamas have now formed a unity government. The author correctly asserts that blame can not be affixed to the Netanyahu government. After two years of negotiating and offering a great many concessions, the Olmert and Livni government could never reach an agreement with Abbas either. If a state of their own and peace with Israel is really what the Palestinians wanted, Abba Eban’s famous quote, “The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity,” is right on the money.

    So what are the ramifications of a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood? Continued isolation of the Jewish State, increased efforts delegitimizing her, more calls for divestiture, cancellation of cultural events. What else is new? In terms of the status quo, this end run around direct negotiations with Israel changes nothing. Recalcitrant as ever, the Palestinians refuse to budge or even negotiate on the core, secular foundational issues which underline this conflict:

    * Recognition of Israel as a Jewish state.
    * Israel’s vital security needs.
    * Jerusalem, Israel’s capital.
    * Palestinian refugees.
    * An end to Palestinian incitement.

    Outside of what many pundits, including this writer, consider to be the least common denominator of this conflict, Islam itself, the above five issues are ostensibly the main topics of contention. Let’s examine them:

    Recognition of Israel as a Jewish state: Once again tipping his hand, Mahmoud Abbas, as reported on Israeli radio, April 18, reiterated his refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. By the speech he gave on April 30, 2009 the Palestinian President proves, if nothing else, he’s consistent.

    For his part, in a speech given on April 19, Prime Minister Netanyahu unequivocally stated that “Jerusalem won’t budge on demand for recognition.” Some may ask why is Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state so important? Israel’s Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon succinctly states that such a proclamation is of no importance to the Jews of Israel. The founding fathers and generations of Israeli citizens subsequent recognize themselves as a Jewish state. Ayalon correctly asserts, for two nations to live side by side in peace, it’s Palestinian society that must come to grips with Israel as a sovereign, Jewish entity.

    Israel’s Vital Security Needs: Emboldened by recent events and more confident than ever, Abed Rabbo gave the following quote during an interview with Al-Hayat newspaper: “The Palestinian leadership won’t back down unless real and serious peace negotiations are launched on the basis of the 1967 borders.” In other words he’s telling Israel, either acquiesce to indefensible borders and other demands or the U.N. will impose it upon them. In a unique expectation of the victors suing for peace, one almost forgets Israel actually controls the territory in question. Likewise, as the jackals in the U.N. curry favor with the Arab world, one has to wonder if any them understands why no Israeli government will succumb to their false sense of urgency and retreat to borders which had placed her in peril during two previous wars.

    Only 44 miles separate the Jordan Valley from the Mediterranean Sea. Following the Six Day War, United Nations Resolution 242 stated Israel was entitled to defensible borders, defensible borders unlike the ones she is being cajoled to return to. Running along Israel’s eastern border is the Jordan Rift Valley whose hills rise from 1,200 feet below sea level to a height of 3,000 feet, serving as an effective 4,200 foot defensive abutment against a potential attack coming from terrorist groups, Iran, Iraq, or Jordan. The last time Israel abandoned such a strategic position was in 2005 when the Sharon government unilaterally pulled out of Gaza, allowing the Philadelphia Corridor to become a conduit for weapons and terrorists, a move unlikely to be repeated in the Jordan Valley. Likewise, the 3,000 foot mountain range surrounds an area of Israel containing 70% of her population, as well as her air and seaports. There could not be a greater vulnerability to the Jewish state than the relinquishment of this high ground overlooking Jerusalem and the heart of Israel. As the likely preponderance of nations in the GA prepare to impose a Palestinian state based upon the pre-1967 Armistice lines, don’t take bet these considerations will ever come to mind.

    Jerusalem as Israel’s capital: Kind of a no brainer. If under all circumstances, the supposed good guy, Abbas, refuses to even consider Israel as a Jewish state, what chance is there for the Palestinians, particularly their new unity government, of recognizing Jerusalem as the Jewish capital? As this presentation by Dore Gold bears witness, the Arabs are perplexed at any Jewish connection to this land. Could, or should Israel, now, after a 2,000 year Diaspora, be in control of her ancient capital, only to abnegate her rights to a Palestinian people sworn to her destruction? This may have made sense when the Western world dissected Czechoslovakia in 1938 but it should not hold water today.

    Palestinian Refugees: Unlike the 800,000-1,000,000 Jewish refugees expelled from Arab lands between 1949 to 1960 who were made citizens of Israel, today you have the progeny of a people uprooted by war, still living in UNRWA refugee camps, never repatriated by an Arab world with greater concern for geo-politics than their wretched plight. Yet today, those countries so fast to bestow nationhood upon a hostile Palestinian state either do not consider or care less the ramifications of Israel absorbing what today would be 7.2 million hostile Arabs.

    An end to Palestinian incitement: It all starts and ends here. If this could be accomplished, all else could fall in line. Dealing with a cooperative, true partner for peace, turning their attention away from war towards nation building would be a godsend to both to Israel and the Palestinians. Unfortunately, all roads lead back to the endemic, theocratic hatred of the Palestinian people toward the Jews of Israel. This indoctrinated angst is so great that, even if begun today, it would take many generations before it could be eradicated. The gap is too great, it’s doubtful it will ever happen.

    The scope of this essay relates to the secular issues of this dispute. In reality the core of this conflict is religion; uncompromising Islam. That’s the rub — that’s its irreconcilability, regardless of what comes out of the United Nations in September.

  41. LOI… have not strayed into/onto any territory of mine. Please feel free to look at the Texas situation and report accordingly. We will and do shoot back and will continue to do so.

    Your article is about Israel and Hamas and I have definite ideas on that and will respond accordingly. However, it seems that you got hijacked on the kill. So, what say you? The kill or Israel in my first answer?

    • d13

      Good morning sir. I sympathize with LOI and posted my thoughts on the article. But in light of this:

      Perhaps you could go ahead and post your findings on the Bin Laden raid first.

    • Either is fine. This has been done a week or so, I think USW decided to publish it as it does bring something related to OBL up for discussion. Might have been as well to post open mic.
      No question, this is a major event. My article can be revisited at another date.

      • As to “my” findings, please note that I have found nothing but will try to clear up several misconspetions of this type of small unit raid and what I can from the briefings and my own personal unclassified knowledge.

        @ Charlie… will be pleased to know that I will agree with you that the taking down of OBL happened on his (Obama’s) watch… and he signed the order to do so. That is all the credit he will get. It was neither his staff nor him that planned the operation nor did he supervise the operation. Please note how this works.

        The use of Seal Team Six was according to SOP. (Standard Operating Procedures). The SOP was developed under the supervision of Donald Rumsfeld and put into effect, April 6, 2003. (The details of the SOP are classified and will remain so probably longer than the JFK papers.) The identities of the team will remain classified for 60 years…..unless declassified, which is unlikely as long as the team is alive. The SOP that was developed back then was a bastardized version of similar black ops SOP’s from the 70’s and 80’s. The Rumsfeld doctrine has been allowed to continue under the Obama administration since his inauguration. Nothing was changed nor added….simply continued. Under this SOP, the intelligence gathering and tracking of several personalities were started…..UBL being one of the targets of a 52 target hit list. Of the 52, target hit list, 29 have been neutralized without fanfare. UBL being the most celebrated but he is but one head of the hydra and the jubilation of taking this one man out, while preferable and certainly welcome, will not deter or change anything.

        UBL was protected by many…..including States. They almost had him once and as the troops were coming in the front door, he was wisked away out the back door. MAny think that ocurred at Bora Bora….ok..think that. Does not matter. He sought and was given asylum in Iran, parts of Afghanistan, and Pakistan. His most prolific movements were between Pakistan and Iran. He, being UBL, also learned very well that satellite tracking, cell phone operation, land line operation was detrimental to his well being. He resorted to and used messengers (couriers). He often changed them and had them killed. He only had a few very trusted ones in his inner circle. Hence, avoiding detection is/was very easy to accomplish. He was even able to mask his dependency upon dialysis and the logistics of medical supplies often hiding them in foreign aid food shipments to Afghanistan and remote areas of Pakistan.,,,,with, of course, the tacit approval of State and certain UN authorities**. (**Declassified except for names). So, hiding was no problem. THe downfall was the inevitable and accidental usage of a cell phone….one time….by a courier that we have been monitoring for 6 years. THe name of the courier was obtained through the now unmentionable but simple interrogation methods of the Bush Administrations. However, and this is very important…..the Obama administration, while decrying the methods previous….continues to use the information obtained there from and recognizes that the information obtained is very useful. ( Please note, that the use of water boarding, sleep deprivation, etc. while not used by the current administration is still in use today by surrogates of this administration and the information is still proving to be very useful ). In the meantime, as with the Rumsfeld doctrines of administrations past, Gitmo is still open and in operation to this day as are the military tactics to which he (Obama) inherited and has continued in full force and effect in other parts of the world.

        Now, please allow me to explain how staff advisors work. The President, a Colonel, a General or whomever is in charge of operations, do not get involved into day by day machinations of anything. The last President to do that was Jimmy Carter and we all know what happened there. However, Potus, Colonels, Generals are kept briefed on all aspects of things. Briefed means a synopsis as prepared by a briefer…. not direct knowledge of anything. A Potus, Colonel, or General will then make an informed decision as best he can make with the facts or briefs in front of him. Neither knows how an operation will turn out because it is boots on the ground and the realities faced that determine the outcome. Obama was no exception. He will have a round table of staff that will inform him of their findings….always quite different. The Potus then must make a decision. The Air Force will have their say, the CIA will have their say, the NAvy, and so on. The Potus, including Obama, has absolutely no idea of the SOP’s, what they contain, how they are implemented, the methods used, etc. Actually, this type of operation is a no brainer. There are various teams that are trained in snatch and grab operations. All the way from the helicopter pilots and crews to the satellite crews, to the Green Berets that provided on ground security, to the Rangers that secure refueling locations and to the Seal Team for the kill/extraction. Where I will give Obama some genuine credit……..he did not inform Pakistan of the operation. Had he done so, it would have been a disaster and I remain quite surprised…happily so…that it was not leaked. So, when the Pres says that he was involved from the beginning… is a play on words. He did not plan, nor execute the operation at all…..he merely gave a green light based upon the intelligence obtained and presented from past operations and SOP’s. And, since it happened on his watch….he takes the credit. A perk. But it is nothing different than this Colonel taking over a command in which certain operations were already underway….and the cumination happens on my watch. I get the credit….but the real credit is due to the preliminary’s long before I got there…..and most inportantly, to the men that were front line operations. Women as well….I might add that one of the extraction team Blackhawks…..was a female pilot. (Name is classified for now).

        Political fallout will continue and many conspiracy theories will abound but this was a military operation all the way. I would want to know the answer to several questions. This compound is a spit and fart away from the West Point of Pakistan… wish to tell me that no one became suspicious or knew of the compounds existence? This compound existed in the elite section of Pakistan…politicians, high ranking officers all have their homes in this vicinity and none of them guarded by 18 foot fences and barbed wire… wish to tell me that they did not know who was in there? Pakistan is an accomplice. As was Iran and certain factions in the Afghan Government.

        The operation went as well as it could given the circumstances. I would think that 22 dead and no American casualities is a pretty good operation. It was clean and sanitized. The extraction team used the new M4a1 with vision recognition and the Sig P226 with teflon coated Black Talon hollow points for close combat. If shot in the head with the Sig….looking at a picture will do you no good.

        The political ramifications of dumping the body? Actually a smart move. Prevents a martyr. Pure and simple. Actually I would have preferred Pershing’s method of dealing with this but it will do. The most stupid thing that Obama could do is fake this type of operation and keep it quiet. Could it have been a well known body double…..possibly. Could the DNA be faked…..possibly. Could I be God…..possibly. Possibilities are endless.

        If anyone wants to know how the operation went down and the logistical support, I will be happy to tell you that as well. MOst of it is not classified and SOP.

        • gmanfortruth says:

          Fire away Colonel. All the details are interesting to read about.

        • Question-Some claim that Bush knew and just didn’t get Osama during his time in office-Can you speak on this?

          • The only thing that I can speak to with any legitimacy is that fact that Bush knew, at times, where he was but could not go get him. He could/would not go into Iran, for instance. He could have gone into the far reaches of Pakistani Mountain regions on a whim or shred of intelligence but the cost in lives would not have been worth it. There was no hard credible on sight eveidence anywhere, except Iran, to my knowledge. He did not have the infrastructure in place was still being developed.

        • d13

          One question Colonel, that has been bothering me.

          The report of DNA confirmation. I was under the impression that validating DNA took longer than the period allowed between kill and reporting.

          Also a comment. It quite frankly irritates the hell out of me that there is so much talking about this by Govt Officials. Far to many details have been let out in my view. Unless of course that is deliberate but if I were POTUS I wouldn’t have wanted the world to know we knew about couriers.

          Although the story about Wikileaks may explain that. But seems to me there is to much political grandstanding going on and the details are the victim.

          As for the lefts condemnation of Bush’s comment that he didn’t care about Bin Laden, I always figured that was part deliberate misleading for Bin Laden’s benefit.

          I also remember my wife and I discussing the supposed promises of Obama right after the election. We had a good laugh as we both knew that once he got the full briefing on what was going on in the world and what had been put in place there would be little change. It is always the new POTUS’s first “holly shit” moment.

          • Mathius says:

            Wonders aloud what a “holly shit” is…

          • Hi Jac….boy is that damning…HIJACK…uh never mind…

            Good after noon JAC……Not surprising, the “DNA evidence” was carried out by the military that Obama hates….which I found to be interesting….but that is all we are getting…..,meaning… is classified and we may never know. You know the game as well as I…..dont want the public to know?????? Classify it. The devil IS in the details. I have not given you MY view on all of this….just trying to clear up misconceptions first and Charlies assumption that it was an Obama campaign….it just culminated on his watch. He wants everybody to acknowledge it but his answer below seems to put little emphasis on the details. He is stuck on “Obama did it in 2.5″….but he does not understand operations and inteligence and overlooks that there are still 20+ out there we are still looking for….HOwever, I will give it its due…it happened on his watch and therefore the perks go with it. One thing that he public also does not understand….and that IS misleading the enemy. We use the media and news organizations all the time for misinformation. They hate it but we do it anyway because the msm cannot leave it alone and that also pisses off the left..which is ok.

            But there are several facts that are “interesting” and since it was a military operation, it can be classified and the parties sworn to secrecy for indeterminable times.

        • d13

          Colonel, I have another question. I assume that in the briefing when it comes decision time the POTUS is given options. Was curious if that is usually the case and if the Corp’s rule of three is applied in the process.

          This of course goes to the public announcement that POTUS was the one who determined an air strike was not a good idea and he alone determined a raid was needed to secure certainty. Contrary to the statements I assume both options were given with full explanation of perceived positives and negatives.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            D13, I have one further question. Prior to Sept 11, 2001, Usama bin Laden was diagnosed with Marfan Syndrom by an American CIA doctor. Can you verify this. If this is true, this is a game changer.

          • Where the Potus is concerned, there is no “Rule of Three”. The lad (potus) had no choice to decide against an airstrike because there was no surgical guarantee. Collateral damage to insure the kill would have been extensive. In the art of warfare, to insure the “kill” would mean a rule of three would apply…..Three times what is necessary. Leveling the compound….. cruise missiles and Drones would not do it. It would take laser guided bombs and, therefore, airspace flyover permission.

            But in the briefings, I will guarantee that all the options will be given. The Potus does not come up with his own….especially Obama..who could not put two toy soldiers together.

        • Interesting, Colonel … and enlightening. I still won’t concede much, if any, credit to Bush, but that’s another beef for another day. Nobody said Obama planned it (if they or I did, that was a mistake) but he was on top of it (golf aside) and he did deliver what nobody else did for 10+ years (Clinton-Bush).

          Neither knows how an operation will turn out because it is boots on the ground and the realities faced that determine the outcome

          Which is why it was such a bold move on Obama’s part; not him taking personal risk, but heavy political risk. Exactly what you mentioned with Jimmy Carter & the Iran debacle. Had that happened this time, well … I think you know the outcome for his presidency.

          • Hey HO, neighbor….by “on top of it” was he getting briefings….yes. But, I will refute your statement that Obama delivered…..he delivered nothing. He reaped benefits of previous operations in progress….but it was not his operation at all…..however, it did happen on his watch and the perks go with it.

            No, to your bold move. It was necessary to protect the scene to gather intelligence… Even if I think Obama is a dunce…..he is not stupid…..he gains more by risking lives than not and reaping those rewards as well. I was just advising you of the process of briefings and why intelligence gathering takes awhile. Once Obama was isolated and proven to be there…the risk was minimal except to the professionals who went in there.

            • Terry Evans says:

              Oops…another Freudian slip…”Once Obama was isolated and “

            • I accept most of what you say, Colonel, except … Presidents place higher or lesser degrees of priority on whatever “they” choose requires the priority. Let us not forget how Bush took his eye off the ball in Afghanistan. We were NOT able to conduct two wars successfully and in fact were getting pretty roughed up in his 2nd war of choice there for a while. We certainly weren’t keeping anything very stable. Is it not possible that Bush needed Bin Laden to stay around to continue his drivel about going after him? Is it not possible that events in Iraq overshadowed the hunt for Bin Laden. While the CIA, et al were doing their jobs, might there have been a little bit of lapse in intensity (consider WMD) … I don’t presume to know the operational aspect of the hunt, but I have no problem believing under Bush, it was neither competent or prioritized the way we believed it to be. All I know, from reports I’m reading, is the intensity in this search began TWO years ago (albeit with information gleamed since 2003-4), but stepped up in a way it seems to me could’ve been done a lot sooner. And seeing how poorly Bush handled both wars, the constant changing of the reasons we went into Iraq, etc., his mishandling of the economy and Katrina, etc., I don’t see how we can suddenly assume he was doing his job with vigilance regarding Bin Laden.

              • Terry Evans says:

                Bush’s handling of Katrina is severely overblown. If the governor of LA and the Mayor of New Orleans would have managed their part of the disaster with a slight semblance of intelligence, then a lot of the BS would not have happened. Again, you are seeming more and more to be a closet Obama supporter…

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Good Morning Charlie 🙂

                You ask: Is it not possible that Bush needed Bin Laden to stay around to continue his drivel about going after him?

                Absolutely correct. But don’t worry, their is a new boogieman waiting in the wings. I listened to a radio interview of Dr. Steve R. Piesznik yesterday. He has worked in the itelligence field since the Nixon Administartion, and is also the person behing Tom Clancy’s Jack Ryan character. To make a long story short, UBL was likely dead of his medical ailments at the end of 2001. CIA doctors had diagnosed him with Marfan Syndrome, which was a early death sentence. His need for dialysis would have likely ended his life once he headed for the mountains of Toro Boro.

                I think it’s safe to say that most of us knew of his dialysis back then. These machines need constant maintenance to remain sterile. The MSM is playing this like a finely tuned violin at a concerto. We both know that the government and the MSM rarely tell the truth about anything, but yet so many believe this boogieman story. Any thoughts?

              • Degrees of priority are worthwhile discussions however, knowing the inside of how these things work through that master of smugness called the Pentagon….( I was considered an outsider when there because I chose to serve as line officer all the time ), I know where and how all this plays out. You must remember that even if Obama is the Pres and CIC…there are still chair bound generals that made their way through the ranks without getting muddy shoes. And they like to play politics. Obama has final say….but I can assure you that the process was on going with the same intensity. It was nothing that Bush set up at all. I doubt he even read the SOP….a Potus does not need to. It is called delegation. Obama is no different. I am sure he did not crack the cover at all and I am sure that he kept the on going hunt because if caught…it wouldbe a feather.

                However, you notice that I have not acquiesced to anything. There are too many unanswered questions before I accept the conclusion. All I did was exlain to you how these things work.

                Presidents place priority on lots of things…I can assure you that no other priority was placed on OBL UNTIL they confirmed his location.

        • Ray Hawkins says:

          @D13 – thanks for sharing – always enjoy your writings on these matters.

          Just glad this didn’t turn out like Son Tay.

          I think it should be obvious to the layperson that to some extent Pakistan knew of his whereabouts and/or were without question protecting him (at the least). So long as America has vital tactical and strategic significance than American $$$ will/would continue to flow there. I have pinged a few Pakistani friends I have; who in the past have been very frank about + or – when it comes to their country. For some reason they have grown alligator arms on this one. 😉

          And one follow-up question D13 – in some reports there was speculation of the role of the Aviation Technology Evaluation Group and/or the Technical Application Programs Office. I am familiar with a TAO based out of Fort Detrick – someone I am very close to used to work there. Are TAPO and TAO one in the same? Any idea what role they played?

    • TexasChem says:

      yeah… hurry I am getting antsy…

  42. May 03, 2011
    The Coming Crisis at the UN — and How Not to Waste It
    By Rick Richman
    The following is an edited version of remarks made in a panel discussion entitled “Goldstone, International Law, and the Coming Crisis in September” held in Los Angeles on April 28, 2011 by Children of Jewish Holocaust Survivors.

    The “coming crisis” is a reference to the Palestinian decision to seek UN recognition in September of a Palestinian state with borders on the pre-June 1967 lines, which are really the 1949 armistice lines from the first Arab war against Israel, covering land currently held legitimately by Israel (since it was acquired in 1967 as a result of a defensive war), whose final status — under multiple UN resolutions, international agreements, and U.S. letters issued by successive American administrations of both political parties — is required to be determined only in direct negotiations between the parties, and not by unilateral action or a UN diktat.

    The coming crisis can be viewed through three different prisms: first, through the prism of the moribund peace process, which for quite a while has been a non-peace non-process; second, through the prism of U.S.-Israeli relations, which in the current administration alternates between Chicago-style diplomacy in odd-numbered years and charm offensives in even-numbered ones; or third, through the broader prism of the role and reputation of the U.S. in international affairs.

    I am going to look briefly through all three prisms, and I am going to conclude that the danger of the coming UN resolution is far greater for the United States than for Israel. The situation will present a test for Israel, but it will be a different test from the one people currently expect, and it will occur not in September but in May.

    1. The Non-Peace Non-Process. To evaluate the effect of a UN resolution on the peace process, recall that eight years ago both Israel and the Palestinian Authority formally adopted the “Performance-Based Roadmap” of the Quartet, a group comprised of the U.S., Russia, the EU, and the UN. The Quartet always reminds me of the answer to one of Carnac the Magnificent’s questions: “Name a superpower, a former superpower, and two organizations with no power.” The Quartet is really the United States: what happens in the Quartet is what the U.S. wants to happen; the Quartet cannot even meet if the U.S. does not want it to meet.

    The Quartet’s Roadmap is in actuality a U.S. plan, intended to implement the landmark speech of President George W. Bush on June 24, 2002, when the U.S. first endorsed a Palestinian state as a matter of policy (the 2000 Clinton Parameters had been by its terms a “bridging proposal,” an attempt to bridge the gap between the parties’ respective positions, and not a U.S. plan): the rationale of the plan was that if the Palestinians dismantled their terrorist groups and established a “practicing democracy,” the U.S. would recognize a Palestinian state.

    The Roadmap thus consisted of three phases: (1) a sustained effort to dismantle Hamas and other terrorist organizations; followed by (2) establishment of a provisional Palestinian state; followed by (3) final status negotiations on the issues of borders, Jerusalem, refugees, and security. But no effort was ever made to dismantle Hamas, and after the 2006 Palestinian legislative and the 2007 Hamas coup in Gaza, compliance with Phase I became impossible. The Palestinians also categorically rejected Phase II, and the U.S. never insisted that they abide by it.

    Instead, in the last year of the Bush administration, the Roadmap was “accelerated,” to use Secretary Rice’s term, with Phase I deferred and Phase II disregarded, in favor of a year-long Phase III final status negotiation, which ended when the Palestinians rejected the Israeli offer of a state on 100% of the West Bank (after land swaps) with a shared Jerusalem. Secretary of State Rice has said she privately urged the Palestinian president to accept the offer, and ex-Prime Minister Olmert disclosed that he all but begged the Palestinian president to do so, but nothing happened — and the term of office of the Palestinian president ended in January 2009. There have been no elections since.

    The Palestinian recourse to the UN will mean that not only Phase I and Phase II of the Roadmap but Phase III as well will have been discarded. The Palestinians cannot go to the UN for determination of a final status issue, to have it determined without negotiation, without reference to any other issue, and without recognition of Israel or security arrangements for it, and pretend that the any phase of the Roadmap still remains. So the non-peace non-process in that event will be not only moribund but dead.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu could offer a new plan or new concessions when he speaks to Congress at the end of May, but they will be rejected by the Palestinians out of hand. The U.S. could offer its own peace plan, as the New York Times and J Street have been urging President Obama to do, but it will meet the same response, and make the U.S. look powerless and foolish in the process. So what do you do? We’ll come back to that.

    2. U.S.-Israeli Relations. If you look at the coming UN resolution through the prism of U.S.-Israeli relations, you find that the U.S. is virtually committed, through multiple assurances to Israel in connection with prior withdrawals from the West Bank and Gaza, to oppose any action by the UN that would render the Roadmap dead.

    In 1997, when Israel withdrew from Hebron and turned it over to the Palestinian Authority, Secretary of State Warren Christopher issued a formal letter to the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, stating the U.S. position that borders were to be resolved in direct negotiations in which Israel would be entitled to “defensible borders.” In 2004, in connection with the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, the U.S. issued a letter to Israel, signed by President George W. Bush, reassuring Israel of the “steadfast commitment” of the U.S. to “defensible borders” — and to the Roadmap as the sole Middle East peace plan. The term “defensible borders” is an undefined term, but no one reasonably thinks they are the 1967 lines.

    When the Palestinians go to the UN in September, the consequences for U.S.-Israeli relations will be profound if the U.S. does not veto a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state with borders that are not only non-negotiated, but indefensible as well. The result will be not only the end of the Roadmap and the peace process, but a crisis in U.S.-Israeli relations far greater than an announcement of Jewish housing in the Jewish area of the capital of the Jewish state.

    It is doubtful that any president, especially one who must face the American electorate a year later, would take that course of action. On the other hand, the current U.S. president is someone who made a Palestinian state one of his central foreign policy objectives, literally from his first day in office; he is someone who reportedly “agonized” over the last UN resolution the Palestinians brought to the UN just a few months ago, and has yet to make a statement signaling to the Palestinians the consequences of their doing it again.

    3.The U.S. Role in International Affairs. Which brings us to the third prism – the role and reputation of the U.S. in world affairs. If the U.S. cannot in September preserve its own Roadmap, and cannot stop a resolution that seeks to have a Palestinian state recognized in a manner that violates not only the Roadmap but multiple U.S. assurances to Israel about the outcome of the peace process, the damage to the U.S. and to its president will be profound — much greater than those for Israel.

    For Israel, it will be the adoption of yet another anti-Israeli resolution by a notoriously anti-Israel institution that will have no effect on the ground; in the real world, as opposed to the world of UN resolutions, it will make the emergence of a Palestinian state less likely rather than more. For the U.S., however, the consequences will be more severe: it will be a demonstration of extraordinary diplomatic impotence, particularly after the president personally warned the Palestinians that there would be “repercussions” if they went to the UN for a resolution the last time, which they then proceeded to do and as of yet have suffered no repercussions at all.

    It will be an indication that U.S. demands can be safely ignored not only by Iran, Syria, and North Korea, but even by a non-state such as the Palestinian Authority. It will mean that Carnac the Magnificent will be stumped when asked to identify any diplomatic superpowers at all among the members of the Quartet.

    So if you are the president of the U.S., and you want to avoid all that, what do you do? The default reaction will be to pressure Israel, force it to make more concessions, threaten its prime minister with no Oval Office pictures in May unless he includes significant concessions in his speech to Congress — all in the hope that pre-negotiation concessions might convince the Palestinians to resume negotiations, which you know will go nowhere but at least spare you the coming debacle in the UN. But that will be a demonstration that the Palestinians, instead of suffering repercussions, will have shown they can get the U.S. to lean, once again, on its own ally — and it will not be the last time that strategy is employed, either by the Palestinians or by others.

    There is another approach that in my view would be more productive for both Israel and the United States. Israel is currently dealing with an unelected West Bank president about to start the 76th month of his 48-month term, who rules by decree, who lacks the political legitimacy to engage in serious negotiations with Israel even assuming he wanted to; and Israel is dealing in Gaza with a terrorist group in Gaza sworn to destroy it. The two groups have now announced a unity agreement and a commitment to hold an election within the coming year. It is doubtful that Fatah and Hamas can actually live “side by side in peace and security” with each other, much less with Israel. But the surest way to find out is to proceed to hold that election.

    In his speech to Congress, Netanyahu should (1) re-iterate that there cannot be two states if the Palestinian one is not willing to recognize a Jewish one with the defensible borders — the ones that both Democratic and Republican administrations have formally assured Israel must emerge from direct negotiations; and (2) encourage the Palestinians to hold the election they have now agreed to hold, and give the Palestinians the chance to elect leaders willing to recognize Israel, renounce terrorism, and recognize all prior agreements — or not.

    Netanyahu should say the place for further concessions are not in a speech but in negotiations with a democratically elected Palestinian Authority prepared to make concessions in return. And he should express the hope that the Palestinians will elect a government with the authority to negotiate on that basis.

    The United States should respond to Netanyahu’s speech by reiterating that the way forward cannot be an empty UN resolution, but the renunciation of terror and the establishment of a practicing democracy, exactly as President Bush declared at the onset of the Roadmap: because if you are not able to hold an election, or elect leaders committed to peaceful negotiations with your neighbor, you are not ready for a state. And the “repercussions” in that event should be obvious: the U.S. has no interest in the continued pursuit of a Palestinian state not committed to live side by side in peace and security, much less in continuing to make such a state a central part of American foreign policy.

    So the title of this evening’s presentation refers to a crisis coming in September, but in my view the key events will occur next month, with Netanyahu’s speech and Obama’s reaction to it. The way to avert the crisis coming in September is for both countries to make it clear now, rather than later, that the UN gambit of the Palestinians is not an acceptable way to proceed, and to make it clear what the repercussions will be from a Palestinian rejection of the foundational principles of the Roadmap.

    The worst way for Israel to proceed would be to negotiate with itself and offer up pre-negotiation concessions that will be simultaneously pocketed and pronounced insufficient. It would be better to announce adherence to a principle — recognition of a Jewish state with defensible borders — and challenge the Palestinians endorse it in the election they now say they are prepared to hold.

    Such an election will produce what used to be called moral clarity. The Palestinians have had several years to compare the results of life in Gaza under Hamas and life in the West Bank under a development program supported by both Israel and the international community. Instead of continually begging an unelected Palestinian president to reject Hamas, let the Palestinian people choose, at the voting booth, whether they want to endorse or reject Hamas — to effectively decide whether they want a peace process, or not.

    The current “crisis” should be used to find out: the Palestinians can demonstrate they have a “practicing democracy” that rejects terrorists and terrorism — the requirement of the Roadmap — or they can effectively end their chances for a state. The decision should be theirs.

  43. Mathius,

    Riiiggggghhhhhtttt… because what happens over there could never affect us over here. We’re soooo far away.
    It’s not like unrest over yonder can jack up oil prices which severely impacts the domestic economy and means that your Honda Civic costs $87 to fill up.

    And the rain in China will affect rice prices. So what?

    It is up to the Chinese to deal with the rain.

    It is up to the people in the ME to deal with their politics.

    • Mathius says:

      Except that impacts you.

      If china experiences a drought and the rice crop fails, they will import. If they import, world-wide rice prices will rise. And when you go to buy some rice, you will have to pay more.

      The Chinese can’t (yet) control the weather, so it’s not really under their control. But war in the ME causing high gas prices is something that we should pay attention to as it is a man-made problem and it does impact us.

      • Mathius,

        Whether it effects you or not, it is not in your control, nor is it your Right to interfere.

        • Mathius says:

          Wrong, Mr. Flag, wrong.

          it is not in your control
          1. We’re involved already. The US bankrolls Israel and, for better or worse, we’re part of the conflict. Perhaps we should withdraw our support, perhaps we should take a firmer hand (though I know which you would prefer). But either way, it is within my control to the extent that it is within the control of the US – that is, we’re either helping or exacerbating the situation, but either way, we are involved and thus the outcome is, to some degree, within our control.

          nor is it your Right to interfere
          2. If some neighbors were playing around with high explosives, you might argue a self-defense right to intervene. Similarly, if some neighbors are wrecking economic havoc on you, you may be justified for “economic” self defense. While this wouldn’t justify use of violence, you could perhaps justify giving aid to people who would draw the ire of your neighbor and therefore spare you from the full brunt of it.

          (Note that I say this in terms of rights of actions, not in terms of the wisdom or correctness of our chosen actions under this justification.)

      • China? Pfft……It would seem that it would be of a much greater concern here in the US with the after-effects of the blowing up of sections of the Mississippi River levee and what the will do to the thousands of farm acres that will be under water – as one farmer notes he’s been told his acerage will be flooded till July sometime – negating his growing season on that land.

  44. Mathius,

    t is not in your control
    1. We’re involved already.

    Who is this “we” you refer to? Certainly it does not include me.

    Should the USGov interfere, certainly this will create other consequences than if they did not interfere.

    One cannot say such consequences are better or worse. There is no way of knowing the unintended consequences of ill-advised actions.

    But YOU, Mathius, has no influence here one way or another. It is a political fantasy exercise for you.

    nor is it your Right to interfere
    2. If some neighbors were playing around with high explosives,

    The ME is not anyway near “my neighbors”.

    • Mathius says:

      But YOU, Mathius, has no influence here one way or another. It is a political fantasy exercise for you.

      You imagine that I have no voice in the actions of the government of the United States. You confuse extremely, extraordinarily minute with zero.

      Ever drop of water can contribute to erosion.. you imagine that the Grand Canyon carved itself? Though each drop had very little effect (control/influence), it did have some control/influence.

      The ME is not anyway near “my neighbors”
      Physical proximity is irrelevant. Does it matter that the sun is far away? Does it’s heat not affect you?

      That the ME is far away is not important. What is important is that what goes on “over there” affects you “over here.” If they are able to cause harm to you, then what does it matter where they are physically located?

  45. This is interesting-I don’t like the idea of our actions being forced by wiki-leaks-but this does name it as only one of the possible reasons.

    May 03, 2011
    Did Wikileaks force the attack on Osama 18 months before the election? (updated)
    Thomas Lifson
    I confess to being such a cynic about Obama that when the death of Osama was announced Sunday night, the first question in my mind was, “Why so long before the election?” This is exactly he sort of event (like the financial crisis of 2008) that can swing several percentage points of the vote with its halo effect.

    A potential answer to my question comes from the UK Daily Mail. Neil Sears writes:

    WikiLeaks may have triggered the killing of Osama Bin Laden, it was suggested last night.

    For although the CIA has thought since September that he was in hiding in Abbottabad, special forces stormed his fortress only days after the website published new secret documents.

    These made reference to named ‘couriers’ carrying Bin Laden’s message to his followers, and also to Abbottabad as a possible Al Qaeda bolthole. (snip)
    Although the document does not suggest Bin Laden has hidden in Abbottabad, it clearly identifies the city as known to the Americans as a possible Al Qaeda leadership bolthole, and identifies by name several couriers.

    It is not yet clear whether the named couriers are those who did indeed lead the CIA to Bin Laden – but even so the document could have provided evidence for Al Qaeda that the net was closing in.

    We will probably never know exactly why this particular moonless night was chosen, but it was the first such optimal evening to occur after Wikileaks let the cat out of the bag.

    Julian Assange, hero to the anti-American left worldwide, may have forced Obama’s hand in deploying “Cheney’s Assassination Squad” (Seymour Hersh’s term) for a “targeted assassination” prematurely.

    Life is full of ironies.

    Update from Dale T. Armstrong:

    In addition to what Thomas outlines above with the Wikileaks document, there may have been several other incidents that when taken separately, slipped under the radar, but when taken together as a series, may have indicated to the US Intelligence Community that their identification of and stakeout of Bin Laden’s Safe house in Abbottabad was about to be blown, and thus a critical mass had been reached, and it was time to act on the Intel that the White House had been sitting on since August of 2010.

    The second incident, in addition to the Wikileaks document, was the arrest of CIA “Contractor” Raymond Davis in Lahore, back in February of this year. Davis was arrested in eastern Pakistan, in the city of Lahore, which coincidentally, 200 miles southeast of Abbottabad. Davis’ cover-story, that he was keeping track of Islamic Extremists in Eastern Pakistan, never made much sense to begin with.

    “The New York Times on Monday reported that Davis was part of a CIA operation tracking Islamist extremists in eastern Pakistan, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba, the virulently anti-Indian group blamed for the bloody 2008 siege of Mumbai.”

    The US has never targeted the Eastern Jihadis in Pakistan, those focused on Kashmir & India, and certainly never used Drone Attacks against them. I would propose, that Davis was in fact, part of the CIA undercover operation targeting Bin Laden’s couriers, and scouting out Abbottabad!.

    Thirdly, in March of this year, this in-depth article was published in the Asia Times, by well known Pakistani Journalist Syed Saleem Shahzad. The gist of the article, is that after years of no Intel on Bin Laden whereabouts, the US recently had become aware of major Bin Laden movement across the area and meetings with Taliban and Jihadi leaders.

    Though the US Intel Community had supposedly not shared with any other Intelligence Service their belief that Bin Laden was hiding out in the Abbottabad safe house, Syed’s article had to raise alarm bells inside the Beltway, as Syed is known not only for his well-placed sources inside the Taliban and probably Al Qaeda, but also for his obvious connections to the Pakistani Military and Intelligence/ISI networks as well. And though the Pakistani Military/ISI may not have known specifically about the US having identified the Abbottabad Bin Laden safe site, clearly, from the article, someone in the Pakistani Journalist’s informant network, was privy to sensitive information that Bin Laden had had a recent surge of activity.

    Syed’s article, combined with the arrest of CIA contractor Raymond Davis, and the Wikileak Article, probably caused the US decision on whether to act on the Abbottabad issue to reach a critical mass, and ultimately forced the US’ hand on the issue.

  46. Sad times in the Anita family again..My sister lost her 4+ year fight against breast/liver cancer. She leaves behind a rock solid husband and two small kids. We laid her to rest on her 19th wedding anniversary…uuugh! VH…whip me up some inspiration

    • I’m so sorry Anita-but it is time for grief my friend-just trust in the Lord and know she is in a better place.

      Psalm 23
      The LORD is my shepherd,
      I shall not be in want.
      He makes me lie down in green pastures,
      he leads me beside quiet waters,
      He restores my soul.
      He guides me in paths of righteousness
      for his name’s sake.
      Even though I walk
      through the valley of the shadow of death,
      I will fear no evil,
      for you are with me;
      your rod and your staff,
      they comfort me.
      You prepare a table before me
      in the presence of my enemies.
      You anoint my head with oil;
      my cup overflows.
      Surely goodness and love will follow me
      all the days of my life,
      and I will dwell in the house of the LORD

    • anita

      My heart is heavy for you and family.

      Biggest of hugs my dear.

    • anita,

      My deepest condolences to you and your family for your loss.

      May the peace and love of our Lord hold and comfort you all!

    • Very sorry for your loss, Anita. Your family is in our thoughts.

    • My condolences also Anita. You and your family are in my prayers.

      • Thanks to all for your kind words 😉

        • Anita, When my father passed-I found this little poem-it somehow made me feel a little better and it has soothed me ever sense. I hope it does the same for you.

          The Broken Chain

          We little knew that morning, that God
          was going to call your name.
          In life we loved you dearly,
          In death we do the same.

          It broke our hearts to lose you,
          you did not go alone;
          for part of us went with you,
          the day God called you home.

          You left us peaceful memories,
          your love is still our guide;
          and though we cannot see you,
          you are always at our side.

          Our family chain is broken,
          and nothing seems the same;
          but as GOD calls us one by one,
          The Chain will link again.

          © Ron Tranmer

          • Whoa! Is that reality or what? Thank you so much V..I’ll pass it through our chain.

    • Terry Evans says:

      My condolences as well Anita. I know the feeling, I lost my mother in late February…it leaves a hole, but folks tell me that time will help.

      • Thank you Terry. I know your pain too as we just lost our mom last April ’10.. We can’t catch a break.. but as Vs poem states..the chain will link again.

  47. Mathius

    But YOU, Mathius, has no influence here one way or another. It is a political fantasy exercise for you.

    You imagine that I have no voice in the actions of the government of the United States. You confuse extremely, extraordinarily minute with zero.

    I do not imagine you have no voice.

    I know you have no voice.

    Physical proximity is irrelevant.

    It is incredibly relevant.

    Your belief here becomes fatal: suddenly everything is your business. This attitude will then be applied against you 10 fold.

    Does it matter that the sun is far away?

    Is sure does matter.

    Does it’s heat not affect you?

    I have no effect on it.

    That the ME is far away is not important. What is important is that what goes on “over there” affects you “over here.” If they are able to cause harm to you, then what does it matter where they are physically located?

    Clear and Present Danger is the doctrine.

    Not “Potential, maybe and Distant Danger”

  48. Rumor has it that DPM sneaked on board on of the choppers and has now set up a clandestine grog operation in otherwise dry Pakistan…..hmmmmm.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      Interesting article from 2009. excerpt:

      In his book, Professor Griffin also endorses this theory. He says Bin Laden was treated for a urinary infection, often linked to kidney disease, at the American Hospital in Dubai in July 2001, two months before 9/11. At the same time, he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to Afghanistan.
      How could Bin Laden, on the run in snowy mountain caves, have used the machine that many believe was essential to keep him alive? Doctors whom Griffin cites on the subject think it would have been impossible.
      He would have needed to stay in one spot with a team of medics, hygienic conditions, and a regular maintenance programme for the dialysis unit itself.
      And what of the telling, small news item that broke on December 26, 2001 in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Wafd? It said a prominent official of the Afghan Taliban had announced that Osama Bin Laden had been buried on or about December 13.
      ‘He suffered serious complications and died a natural, quiet death. He was buried in Tora Bora, a funeral attended by 30 Al Qaeda fighters, close members of his family and friends from the Taliban. By the Wahhabi tradition, no mark was left on the grave,’ said the report.
      The Taliban official, who was not named, said triumphantly that he had seen Bin Laden’s face in his shroud. ‘He looked pale, but calm, relaxed and confident.’
      It was Christmas in Washington DC and London and the report hardly got a mention. Since then, the Bin Laden tapes have emerged with clockwork regularity as billions have been spent and much blood spilt on the hunt for him.
      Bin Laden has been the central plank of the West’s ‘war on terror’. Could it be that, for years, he’s just been smoke and mirrors?

      Read more:–U-S-Britain-covering-continue-war-terror.html#ixzz1LKc9zcS4

      • Seems like claiming you killed Osama -if he was already dead would be very dangerous. If he died as this article claims-those who buried him could easily unbury him and prove it was him-don’t you think.

        • gmanfortruth says:

          Or he was already unburied by the US and taken elsewhere. How does a man that needs dialisis hide in the mountains?

          • Anything is possible. But he was rich and I assume he had alot of connections-so I figure him surviving is also possible. Unfortunately, we live in a world where achieving certainty is very difficult.

  49. Wonder if we’ll get sanctioned by the U.N.-the way Israel always does.


    Justice, American Style
    Was Bin Laden’s Killing Legal?

    An Analysis by Thomas Darnstädt
    A victory celebration on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington on Sunday night.

    Is this what justice looks like? Al-Qaida boss Osama bin Laden was killed on Sunday in a secret military operation in Pakistan. Americans are celebrating, but there are serious doubts about whether the targeted killing was legal under international law and the laws of war.
    For reasons of data protection and privacy, your IP address will only be stored if you are a registered user of Facebook and you are currently logged in to the service. For more detailed information, please click on the “i” symbol.

    US President Barack Obama gets precious few opportunities to announce a victory. So it’s no wonder he chose grand words on Sunday night as the TV crews’ spotlights shone upon him and he informed the nation about the deadly strike against Osama bin Laden. “Justice has been done,” he said.

    It may be that this sentence comes back to haunt him in the years to come. What is just about killing a feared terrorist in his home in the middle of Pakistan? For the families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks, and for patriotic Americans who saw their grand nation challenged by a band of criminals, the answer might be simple. But international law experts, who have been grappling with the question of the legal status of the US-led war on terror for years, find Obama’s pithy words on Sunday night more problematic.

    Photo Gallery


    12 Photos
    Photo Gallery: The Hunt for Bin Laden

    Claus Kress, an international law professor at the University of Cologne, argues that achieving retributive justice for crimes, difficult as that may be, is “not achieved through summary executions, but through a punishment that is meted out at the end of a trial.” Kress says the normal way of handling a man who is sought globally for commissioning murder would be to arrest him, put him on trial and ultimately convict him. In the context of international law, military force can be used in the arrest of a suspect, and this may entail gun fire or situations of self-defense that, in the end, leave no other possibility than to kill a highly dangerous and highly suspicious person. These developments can also lead to tragic and inevitable escalations of the justice process.

    It is unfortunate. And it is certainly no reason for the indescribable jubilation that broke out on Sunday night across America — and especially not for applause inside the CIA’s operations center.

    Not Everything the US Declares To Be War Really Is

    But Obama and his predecessor Bush never sought the kind of justice that would have seen bin Laden tried in an international court. As early as his election campaign in 2008, Obama swore he would “kill bin Laden” and finish the job begun by his predecessor after 9/11. “We went to war against al-Qaida to protect our citizens, our friends and our allies,” the president explained on Sunday night. A US national security official didn’t beat around the bush, telling Reuters, “This was a kill operation.” And why shouldn’t it be? The very goal of war is the defeat of the opponent, the killing of enemies through legal means. War is war.

    Photo Gallery


    11 Photos
    Photo Gallery: Bin Laden’s High-Security Hideout

    In truth, it isn’t quite that simple. And not everything that the United States declares to be war really is. Legal experts like Kress say it is “questionable whether the USA can still claim to be engaged in an armed conflict with al-Qaida.”

    It was certainly still war when Bush began the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. Operation Enduring Freedom targeted the Taliban government in Kabul as well as Osama bin Laden’s terrorist organization which it backed. At the time, al-Qaida maintained bases and training camps in Afghanistan — just like a warring party, in fact. The war on terror was understood to be an “asymmetrical war,” and the laws of war also permit the targeted killing of non-state combatants, provided they are really combatants who are organized in units with a military-like character, and that they are integrated into those units either as armed fighters or as a leader who issues commands.

    Was Bin Laden Still Even Giving Orders?

    For years, Osama bin Laden was, without a doubt, a combatant according to the latter definition. Many terror experts today, however, doubt that definition still applied to him in the end. “Al-Qaida has obviously had a network structure for some time. In a network, it isn’t clear who gives the orders in individual instances,” Kress says. “Outsiders also know very little about al-Qaida’s structures in the Pakistani border areas. It is in no way certain that bin Laden still had the authority to issue commands as head of a quasi-military organization.”

    But if bin Laden was no longer a leader, it would no longer be permissible to treat him as an enemy combatant or kill him.

    Photo Gallery


    19 Photos
    Photo Gallery: Bin Laden’s Luxury Compound

    Nor is it clear which conflict this operation was actually part of. The operation didn’t take place on the actual battlefield of Operation Enduring Freedom, i.e. in Afghanistan, but rather on Pakistani territory. On this point, too, the official American view of international law also diverges from that of most experts on the subject. The commanders of the war on terror consider the entire world to be a battlefield. The US would seek to justify a military operation like the one that took place Sunday anywhere it believes the enemy is hiding — regardless whether it be in Europe or Islamabad.

    Kress and the vast majority of other experts on the law of armed conflict find this view unacceptable. “The theater of an asymmetrical conflict is regularly confined to the territory of the country in, or from, which the non-governmental actors act in quasi-military ways,” says Kress. “Anything else would lead to the incalculable escalation of the use of force.” Or is another asymmetrical war raging on Pakistani territory today, with al-Qaida waging war against the government there? If so, what role does the Taliban play in this conflict? Or bin Laden, for his part?

    “It is in no way clear that bin Laden, at the time of his killing, commanded an organization that was conducting an armed conflict either in or from Pakistan,” Kress says.

    What Business Did the US Have in Pakistan?

    And what business did the United States even have acting within the territory of Pakistan, a foreign power? A military strike that crosses national borders, barring acts of self-defense, is generally viewed as an infringement on sovereignty — unless Pakistan’s government requested help from the Americans.

    Did Islamabad actually make that request? Obama sought to gloss over the subject on Sunday night. “Tonight, I called President Zardari, and my team has also spoken with their Pakistani counterparts. They agree that this is a good and historic day for both of our nations.”

    But was Sunday a good day for justice?

    For years, the very principle of international law has been to pursue justice rather than war. On Sunday, Obama said that bin Laden’s fate is a “testament to the greatness of our country.” If the United States had used the same power it deployed during the invasion of Iraq to force tyrants such as Saddam Hussein or Moammar Gadhafi — not to mention the mass murderer Osama bin Laden — into the dock of an international court, one might have believed him.,1518,760358,00.html

  50. Canine Weapon says:

    And these people are breeding…

  51. Again, you are seeming more and more to be a closet Obama supporter…

    Once again the fact cloud your statements. Obama has done no more than Bush (or very little) for those in New Orleands since he’s in office. But you need to paint me an Obama supporter. Red thru and thru, Obama supporter … whatever floats your boat … but you’re right, Bush did a “heck of a job” with Katrina, both wars and the economy. Heck of a President he was.

    • Terry Evans says:

      You are a master at twisting statements. I never stated that Bush did a “heck of a job” rather that his mis-handling of the disaster was severely overblown. Just an FYI, I live about 25 miles from New Orleans and was here the during the entire disaster and restoration…and still live here. My experience with the Katrina disaster was first hand, and not gleaned from some reporters column…

      Your words…”Bush did a “heck of a job” with Katrina, both wars and the economy”…

      • Another pot stirring moment … I agree that the mayor and Governor were VERY culpable (and the mayor was re-elected– oy vey) … but Bush cannot escape his FEMA blunders or Brown. He certainly didn’t handle/manage the problem in a positive way.

        • Terry Evans says:

          Yes, politics in Louisiana is…interesting…crooked as a dogs hind leg, but interesting none the less. The Mayor being re-elected was a bit shocking to people from outside this area…I knew he would be, I’ve been living here for around 25 years so I see how the flow of local New Orleans politics goes. FEMA was a disaster on top of the disaster, I can only hope that they gained some experience with something on a scale as large as that was. But, the actual worst area hit was the Mississippi Gulf Coast, and there didn’t seem to be the issues there that were in N.O., so I fall back on the local leadership as the main problem.

  52. Bama dad says:

    Obama gets credit in my book for having the stones to say go but Holder gets the prize for outlining how this thing was pulled off. So Charley see your hero is just one of many in a long line spanning many years.

    US Attorney General Eric Holder said the bin Laden operation “was the result of a steadfast, almost decade-long effort — one that spanned two administrations, and was advanced by many dedicated military and civilian leaders; intelligence and law enforcement officers; diplomats and policymakers; investigators, prosecutors and counterterrorism experts.”

    • BD: The closest I have to a political hero right now is Bernie Sanders:

      But if I had to choose between Bush II & Obama, I’d take Obama in a heartbeat. I prefer to ignore both major parties, but any defense of something Obama does here at SUFA requires the crowd here to proclaim that support a supporter of Obama/sycophant, whatever … I have to say, it gets a little bit more amusing here every day. The photoshop claim was so predictable, I would’ve bet on it. And won.

      • I agree Charlie.. you’ve been very critical of the Big O, going so far as to repeatedly (and annoyingly) call him Bush III. I think any characterizing of you as a sycophant is disingenuous or, at best, ill-informed.

        • Terry Evans says:

          Or, it could be some a**hole returning the favor of pot stirring!!!

          • You’re my hero, Terry! If I fell for it, you win!

            Well, played, sir …

          • Mathius says:

            If the likes of Charlie and I didn’t stir the pot from time to time, this place would stagnate. It’d become an echo chamber no better than **GASP** HuffPo.

            Like it or not, we liberals are the secret sauce of SUFA.

            • Yeah, like Reggie, we’re the swizzle stick that stirs the drink (something like that) …

              I used to torture so-called democrat liberals (still do from time to time) who attacked Bush and everything GOP the same way (making fun of Obama and the Dems — annoyingly, as Matt pointed out) and I used to say the same thing Matt did; if it weren’t for a counter argument, how boring would it be?

              But I try and ONLY respond to sarcasm with sarcasm (unless yous feel any knock on Sir George of Bush is a sarcastic attack). Trust me, I voted for the imbecile (twice). I mean it when I call him an imbecile.

            • Terry Evans says:

              Well then, I guess you could say that I learned from seasoned professionals!

      • Bama dad says:

        “Charley see your hero”

        Was a poke I just could not resist.

        • Then you got me, Bama!

          By the way, my beloved New York State Buffalo Bills owe your state a great thanks. Marcell Dareus will FINALLY bring us the defense we need to win 5 ga—, I mean, the Super Bowl this year!

  53. gmanfortruth says:

    Has anyone noticed that there is something missing in the whole UBL thing (other than his picture)?

    • Mathius says:

      Like a body? Or a long form death certificate?

      • gmanfortruth says:

        No, One would expect Muslim supporters to take to the streets in protest of America, holding up UBL pictures and chanting. Not one of these has been reported.

        • gman

          Actually I saw pictures of supporters marching in Pakistan, yesterday.

          I think it was either on Al Jazeera or the NY Times.

          On the other hand there have been numerous public statements from Muslims expressing thanks that he is gone.

          • Mathius says:

            “I think it was either on Al Jazeera or the NY Times.”

            Yes, I can see how you might easily get those two confused…

        • Mathius says:

          Hmm.. interesting point..

          it does seem to be quiet out there..

          I guess Pakistan wants to keep it quiet since they were so obviously culpable in protecting him. The rest of the Muslim world isn’t interested in protesting against the killing of a known mass-murderer. Hamas issued a statement, I think, but you make an interesting observation.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            There is ample evidence from the past 12 years that would point to this being a hoax. I’ve posted some above. As you can see I’m skeptical of this being true, only because of past reports concerning his health.

            • Mathius says:

              My problem is this: it’s too dangerous to fake.

              If he faked it, and if it ever came out (as many fakes do), it would destroy him politically. Forget a second term – he would join the ranks of Nixon.. surpass him, probably. Nothing else he did, does, or ever will do would ever matter one iota.

              It’s just an insanely stupid risk to take. I’m sure he’s got lots of good proof sitting around. Whether you agree with him politically or not, I think we can all agree that he isn’t stupid.

              • Terry Evans says:

                That is my take as well…if folks think it took gonads to go into Pakistan to get Osama, then they would have to be dragging the ground to attempt a ruse this large…

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Obama is not stupid at all. But he and his administration are probably the most incompetent group since the Carter years. Nothing that he or the rest of the government does can be taken at face value, they have proven time and time again to being dishonest.

              • Terry Evans says:

                That incompetence is one of the reasons I don’t believe this to have been faked…

            • Truthseeker says:

              I do believe that it happened because the Military would leak info stating otherwise if it was not true. Of course it is possible that it is a Double (though they said they have DNA evidence) and also possible they didnt kill him and have him locked up on the ship. If I was Obama, I would of faked his death and waterboard the hell out of Osama and kill him slowly. Can’t kill someone twice 😉

              • Mathius says:

                That’s what you think. Did you forget that Obama is the messiah? Do you not remember the story of Lazarus?

                “I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who believes in Me shall live, even if he dies.”

                Obama can bring him back to life and kill him as many times as he wants. It’s one of the perks of being The One.

              • Obama is not stupid at all. But he and his administration are probably the most incompetent group since the Carter years.

                Gman, I noticed you skipped the ultimate incompetent one (Bush) … but that’s okay … what I can’t believe is that you’re clinging to this “it’s a hoax” idea … come on, it would be INSANE to even attempt that. Obama would be Osama politically if he did that.

                Unless this is another stir the pot moment, you’ve completely lost your bearings. The entire country (save a few democratic desperadoes I fight with at other sites) would want his ass impeached for something that bad.

              • Mathius says:

                Then again.. Bush wasn’t impeached for his WMD lies..

              • gmanfortruth says:

                @Charlie, Dude, they think we are stupid idiots who will believe what ever they say. When Saddam’s kids were killed what happened? Their faces were shown on TV on every network. The ABC video of where he was killed, where’s the dialysis machine, out for repair? Where is the power to run said machine (the building had no electricity). Open your eyes, it’s not hard to see through the BS.

  54. Opinion-should they are shouldn’t they show the pictures? I’m leaning towards not but haven’t really made up my mind. Just wish they would make up their minds and do one or the other. I can’t believe all this
    misinformation-makes America look idiotic. He had a gun-he didn’t have a gun-looked like he was reaching for a gun, etc. etc. etc. 😦

    • Mathius says:

      Why not just wait for the Michael Moore movie?

      That should answer all your questions.

    • They should definitely show the film they probably have (helmet cams!) … and I’m not kidding. I’d bet dollars to donuts this thing was filmed (and why not)?

      Charge pay-per-view and clear up the national debt overnight.

    • Terry Evans says:

      I personally say, release any and all pictures/video of this. It will turn out to be another birth certificate moment if they do not. There is no way it could be any more graphic than the Daniel Pearl video…

      • You might get to see some pictures. But the only video you’ll ever see is the movie that someone will make. Wonder how soon that will come out.

    • V.H.

      My vote is NO photos and NO video.

      And I hope the Govt doesn’t store them on their secure computers for Wikileaks to access later.

      I also vote for the Govt to shut the hell up about the whole issue of photos etc.

      But this will play out like the Birth Certificate. Let it fester until the skeptics grow and then embarrass them with the release. All designed to make POTUS look better than his opponents.

      • Mathius says:

        I had that exact thought a while ago.. it makes his opponents look (again) like a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists.

        Well played, Mr. President, well played.

        • Which is why the 2012 election, barring some very catastrophic mess, is over.

          • Mathius says:

            Stop counting your chickens…

            He’s going to have a very tough up-hill battle if the economy doesn’t pick up.

            It’s the economy, stupid.

            • Say bet?

            • Terry Evans says:

              SEE!! I told you…Charlie=Obama groupie!!!

              • That’s because with all his talk against Obama-he really knows in his heart that Obama is a socialist-he’s just irritated because Obama tries to hide it, so he’ll have a chance of getting re-elected.

              • You should see me with my Obama “ears” as I type this stuff. My writing room is a shrine to The One. I have to hide all that stuff when Doc comes to visit (or he’ll take target practice on all of it), but soon as he leaves, I’m scrambling to get it out of my desk drawers again. Some were screaming USA, USA the other night. Not me … I was chanting O-ba-ma, O-ba-ma!

      • Terry Evans says:

        JAC, why would you not want those to be released?

  55. gmanfortruth says:

    Moving down here. Folks, Bush was a super liar, Obama is also. I’ll show you!

    Report: Bin Laden Already Dead
    Wednesday, December 26, 2001

    Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader.

    “The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead,” the source said.

    Bin Laden, according to the source, was suffering from a serious lung complication and succumbed to the disease in mid-December, in the vicinity of the Tora Bora mountains. The source claimed that bin Laden was laid to rest honorably in his last abode and his grave was made as per his Wahabi belief.

    About 30 close associates of bin Laden in Al Qaeda, including his most trusted and personal bodyguards, his family members and some “Taliban friends,” attended the funeral rites. A volley of bullets was also fired to pay final tribute to the “great leader.”

    The Taliban source who claims to have seen bin Laden’s face before burial said “he looked pale … but calm, relaxed and confident.”

    Asked whether bin Laden had any feelings of remorse before death, the source vehemently said “no.” Instead, he said, bin Laden was proud that he succeeded in his mission of igniting awareness amongst Muslims about hegemonistic designs and conspiracies of “pagans” against Islam. Bin Laden, he said, held the view that the sacrifice of a few hundred people in Afghanistan was nothing, as those who laid their lives in creating an atmosphere of resistance will be adequately rewarded by Almighty Allah.

    When asked where bin Laden was buried, the source said, “I am sure that like other places in Tora Bora, that particular place too must have vanished.”

    • gmanfortruth says:

      TOP TEN REASONS>>>(Alex James) My Letterman imitation of the top 10 reasons for Bin Laden’s death announcement:

      10. They ran out of Bin Laden look-alikes to use in fake videos
      9. People stopped believing that a cave-dweller on a dialysis machine was still alive after 10 years
      8. People discovered the Frost/Bhutto interview on YouTube where she confirmed that Bin Laden was dead already, back in 2004 – probably died in December 2001
      7. They want to be able to say something was achieved for the TRILLIONS spent on wars over the last 10 years and the thousands of innocent civilian lives
      6. They need a distraction from the upcoming Gaza Flotilla and from the upcoming vote in the UN on Palestinian sovereignity, and the Move-Over-AIPAC conference this month
      5. They need us to remain terrified of the upcoming retaliation for Bin Laden’s death to justify the continuance of the TSA’s “Grope or Fry” policy
      4. They need a distraction from the birth certificate controversy
      3. They need a distraction from the murders of Ghadafi’s son and grandchildren
      2. They need a ploy to remake Obama as a hero to the “USA! USA!” crowd and get him re-elected
      1. They need an excuse to pull troops out of Afghanistan to deploy elsewhere and take us into war once more – probably Syria/Iran

    • Terry Evans says:

      Could that be an effort to mislead the US into believing that he was dead and not pursuing him any more?

      • gmanfortruth says:

        Terry, This report was hardly noticed back then. It was not a headline anywhere. My guess is this is the beginning of the destabilization of Pakistan. I also think we will see an attack of some form, with Pakistan being blamed.

        • Terry Evans says:

          Perhaps, but I would have to see some hard evidence rather than speculation…in either case.

  56. Mathius,

    too dangerous to fake

    No, its not. There is no body. It is fish food.

    My take:

    OBL has been dead for years. Obama needs a political lift.

    Go take out some ‘other’ terrorist, make a big deal, eliminate the evidence, manufacture new evidence, flash it on TV, get 20% up lift for Obama during a time of turmoil in the US economy.

    Every one goes home happy.

    • For a government that can’t do anything right, you sure give it a TON of credit here. And think of the all the opportunistic capitalists out there who could turn this breach of conspiracy into a bankroll? All those who’d have to be involved …

      You’re reaching, BF … no way.

    • Mathius says:

      All this was just one big ploy to interrupt the finale to The Apprentice?

    • A Puritan Descendant says:

      I agree with Mathius and Charlie. It seems to me there would be way to many loose ends or tracks to cover. I say, waay far fetched, even if they can’t get their story straight. At first, I too thought it Odd they dumped his body, but what better to do with it? I say it is for real. Osama Bin Laden got himself Whacked!

      • I agree…UBL is dead. The Hydra grew a new head.

        • To clarify…….I said he is dead. I put no date on it. Not yet.

          • Terry Evans says:

            Please enlighten us when you can put a date on his death. I take from your post that you too have doubts as to what happened this past weekend?

      • Puritan,

        What loose end? OBL is dead. He ain’t going to be raising any They dumped the body. Whatcha goin’ prove without a body?

        • A Puritan Descendant says:

          Osama’s home has survivors who are “loose ends” for one. His daughter, a witness, already talking in Pakistan if news reports are correct. You are correct, it is hard to ‘prove’ without a body, but I think with so many involved in the operation it is just to far fetched to think all would lie or, be so fooled.

          • Puritan,

            Perhaps .. perhaps not. Who knows?

            All I know is dumping the body is so abnormal it reeks.

            But it is all speculation.

            What I know is this:
            (1) OBL life or death after 9/11 was irrelevant. He was a tool for geopolitical opportunism and after 9/11 became unnecessary for any purpose. This was demonstrates by the lack of effort to actually get rid of him by Bush. His was used, it was fulfilled and beyond that, nothing much.

            (2) There is a reason why -now- OBL was brought to life and killed. Whether he was really still alive or not is irrelevant. His death -now- has a purpose, some political purpose. There is a real reason – but I can only speculate. The real reason is not exposed or told to us.

            But something is up, or something needs to be shut up, or covered up or something needs to be disguised or manipulated.

            But things are no where close to what they appear.

      • Just A Citizen Says:
        May 4, 2011 at 12:01 pm edit


        My vote is NO photos and NO video.

        And I hope the Govt doesn’t store them on their secure computers for Wikileaks to access later.

        I also vote for the Govt to shut the hell up about the whole issue of photos etc.

        But this will play out like the Birth Certificate. Let it fester until the skeptics grow and then embarrass them with the release. All designed to make POTUS look better than his opponents.

        Mathius Says:
        May 4, 2011 at 12:10 pm edit

        I had that exact thought a while ago.. it makes his opponents look (again) like a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists.

        Well played, Mr. President, well played.

        Looks like that may be his game. Picture any Republican front-runner being interviewed by George Stepobomanus:

        So what do you think of these ongoing demands by the TeaParty and others, for the PRESIDENT to provide photo evidence of OBL’s death?

        “well the teaparty has never asked”GS But some rightwing groups are demanding he,
        OK, yes some are still requesting this, I don’t understand why he doesn’t comply, but
        “no, I believe he was killed, as report”GS BUT YOU JOIN WITH THESE RIGHTWING GROUPS DEMANDING PROOF. Thank you, after the break, we’ll view PRESIDENT Obama bust a move at his latest fundraiser.

    • AS I told Charlie above…..I only answered questions. I have reserved my opinion until I see more evidence.

      The body disposal is troublesome.

      • Mathius says:

        If I were a terrorist mastermind, I would record dozens of videos in advance. One for every contingency and including various plausible specifics. Claim to be alive and blast the “enemies of Islam” for their lies and propaganda.

        “I have seen the reports that I was killed in a safehouse in Pakistan and I am here to tell you that this is a lie. I am alive and well. The enemies of Islam spread lies and cannot be trusted.”

        That way, if you are killed, your trusted ally can pick the right recording off the shelf and give it to al jazeera. You get the last-laugh.

  57. Charlie,

    For a government that can’t do anything right, you sure give it a TON of credit here. And think of the all the opportunistic capitalists out there who could turn this breach of conspiracy into a bankroll? All those who’d have to be involved …

    You’re reaching, BF … no way.

    (1) They have done this before, this is not “new”
    (2) It is hardly difficult nor complex
    (3) Government is good at killing, lying, and cover ups. How do you think it has existed for so long?
    (4) Without a body, it is nearly impossible to prove anything, including the conspiracy.

    As I said, OBL has been dead for years. It would be rather embarrassing for his body to turn up dead after 10 years of war.

    So “kill” the dead body, take DNA from the dead body, destroy the dead body and claim you killed the man.

    It’s simpler than the events in one of your novels!

    • We can’t keep secrets for more than a day in this country. We’re horrible at it. And the technology! Forget it. I wouldn’t doubt we knew where he was for 5 or 6 years and Obama chose now to go after him (for the polls); that I’d more than entertain, but that this is all a ruse? No way. Somebody would sell the story (capitalism at its best) … think of the value uncovering a scam like you described would be worth? And to the GOP? Priceless. Hell, even me, an Obama wannabe, I’d want him impeached overnight for attempting something that insidious.

      • 🙂

      • Charlie,

        “…can’t keep secrets…”

        You need to dialogue with the likes of USWep and D13 about the ability to keep great and deep secrets.

      • Charile,

        ….and it isn’t a secret. It is all out in the open. What is missing is any ability to prove otherwise. That went down to the bottom of the sea.

        So they don’t have to keep it a secret. Even if one of the participants came out and said “It’s all a fake! We didn’t kill OBL” – all others have to say …. “What is your evidence?”…. and empty hands would be all that there is….

  58. Mathius says:

    Black Flag,

    This just reeks of you..

    • Mathius,

      …except I have zero interest in Fed politics. It holds no interest, no concern, and other responding to your comment, not one more second of thought in my head.

      • Mathius says:

        Not the fed politics! The part below.

        Private all-or-nothing futures betting on gold futures at various prices. They’re only asking $9.5 for a $10 contract that gold will end the year about $1,000. You should be all over that.

        Hell, I should be all over that.. why am I telling you instead of just doing it myself?

        • Mathius,


          Yeah, thanks for the headsup – I may play! 🙂

          • In the meantime..I turn my head for a couple days and gold dropped $50! What’s up with that?

            • Anita,

              It’s called “A great buying opportunity”.

              What fundamental economic situation has changed?

              Remember that gold is the thermometer of government trust.

              The higher the price the less trust in government.

              The drop in price is people’s sigh of relief in believing the war on terror has taken a positive turn.

              Do you believe this?
              If you do, then sell gold
              If you do not, then buy or hold.

          • Mathius says:

            I think the liquidity is too low for me.. if you get into it, I’d love to hear your thought.

  59. @ Gman….I think it was you that asked the question about dialysis….it is a simple matter to whisk him to the hospital next door. …….actually about 1/4 mile away….there is a hospital just for the elite in that area.

  60. A Puritan Descendant says:

    Funny thought. I get upset when ‘my version’ of correct history is taught or repeated ‘wrong’, after hundreds of years.
    Day one of the history of the whacking of Osama Ben Laden is already open to debate forever, because his body was dumped in the sea!
    Or was it his body? 🙂
    Maybe they should retrieve it now……

    • Mathius says:

      Good luck with that. Do you know how long it took to find the Titanic? And that was a large ship whose last surface location was factually known. A body would get thrown around in the currents – depending on where they dropped it, how deep, and how they weighted it down (hopefully wrapped in pig-skin), it could have drifted dozens of miles easily. And, because it’s a body and not a giant ocean liner, it’s not going to turn up so well on radar.

      Unless they deigned to put a transponder on him, he ain’t getting retrieved.

      Why does all this feel like a mob-hit? Did they send his lieutenants a bullet proof vest with a dead fish in it? Did they give bin Laden cement shoes?

      • A Puritan Descendant says:

        An ‘animal’ was once destroying my crops. I tryed all I could to avoid ‘whacking’ it. Finally I had enough! This animal could have fed me WELL, but by then I was so disgusted with this beast I left it for the coyotes.
        Maybe this is why Osama was fed to the sharks.

        • Mathius says:

          Why is animal in quotes? What could that possibly mean? I assume it wasn’t a mineral or vegetable…

          • A Puritan Descendant says:

            ok, It was a HUGE squirrel, 🙂
            or was it a skunk…………

            • Mathius says:

              I have a chipmunk in my yard – it digs these holes in my flowerbeds. I’ve tried to kill it, gas it, set traps, poison it… no good. Sooner or later, I’m going to be the guy sitting on the porch with a rifle and waiting.. waiting.. waiting.. BOOM!!!

              Sadly, the grass we planted is still too young to walk on, or I’d just let my pooch take care of it. But one way or another, that thing is going to stop making those holes.

              • A Puritan Descendant says:

                Chipmunks are way to cute to shoot. Try a rat trap with peanut butter.

              • Mathius says:

                I don’t know.. I used rat traps in my basement when I first moved into my house.. worked like a charm, except…

                Except one critter, really just a baby mouse, didn’t get killed outright by it. The trap caught it’s leg. It must have struggled for a long time because there was blood all over the place (you honestly wouldn’t think such a tiny animal has so much blood) – you could even see where it had tried to chew off its leg.

                I don’t know if I can use those things again.. I’m no hippie, but I have a hard time rationalizing being the cause of suffering like that in any living creature. A clean kill, sure, but that………

                And I’ll be damned if I’m going to spend $17 on the “humane” ones.

              • A Puritan Descendant says:

                That’s almost as bad as finding a baby bird or bat stuck in tangletrap (for insects). They don’t ever get that stuff off. No choice but to put them out of their misery. Everything has a downside, even wind generators killing birds.

  61. Mathius says:

    Uh oh.. BBG is going Bear on Gold..

    “Soros bails on gold”
    “Gold holders head for exits”

    • 🙂


      • Mathius says:

        Are you insane? I mean, I always knew you were somewhat nuts, but are you actually, literally, clinically, certifiably, totally bonkers?

        BBG shouts SELL and your first instinct is to buy? What is wrong with your brain?

        Wait a few days, let the sellers sell high. THEN buy.

        Jeez. Do I have to explain everything to you people? 😉

    • A Puritan Descendant says:

      I notice 2 stories missing from the news lately.
      1. Japan’s melt down.
      2. The upcoming debt ceiling/budget crises.

      • Mathius says:

        What meltdown?
        What debt ceiling crisis?

        Didn’t you hear that we killed Osama Bin laden?

        Everything is sunshine and puppy dogs now in the world. Get with the program, P.D.

  62. This is my take on UBL going to see Allah.

    I do not care if they put him on his knees and put a bullet in the back of his head. I don’t care if they garrotted him. I don’t care HOW they did it.

    So it was an assasination. SO WHAT.

    I just wish they would find something else to talk about. You would think the world of news has come to an end just because that asshole got his.

    I just hope some enterprising young seaman ran to the galley, got a BIG piece of HAM, and shoved it in his mouth before they threw his stupid ass in the sea.

    And hooray for OBAMA! Kudos to you for going ahead and carrying through with the operation. Good job Mr President!

    But it’s still over a year to the election. Anyone who believes this will win the next election for him is a FOOL! If the economy doesn’t start improving he will still be looking for a job in 2012.

    • A Puritan Descendant says:

      Before Obama produced his birth certificate, and agreed to whack Bin Laden he had ZERO credibility in my eyes. Who would listen to him before those two events?

      But now when he has a Presidential debate with a republican candidate, he will have credibilty in the eyes of many. Especially young voters and the clueless. Now he won’t be seen as some clown spouting more BS, but as the American Citizen President who Whacked Osama Bin Laden! What Republican can match that?

      But as you say, economic factors will probably do him in, along with the rest of us.

      • But that’s the thing. Why SHOULD he be reelected just because his administration found UBL and whacked him?

        That is the ONLY thing he has done right since he was elected. Not only that, he is the most divisive President in American History. THIS should get him another 4 years?

        • A Puritan Descendant says:

          ” THIS should get him another 4 years?”

          If this one success for Obama does get him another 4 years then the American voter is more clueless than I thought.

          I think a lot is going to happen in the next few months over our debt problems. It might get real scary!

        • Mathius says:

          More divisive that George-With-Us-Or-With-The-Terrists-Bush?

          Put the kool-aid down and back away slowly..

          • A Puritan Descendant says:

            But George wasn’t dividing his own country was he?

            • Mathius says:

              Sure he was.. the message was always loud and clear: I’m a cowboy gun-shooting conservative true ‘merican, and you’re a latte sipping yuppie. And oh, by the way, if you don’t happen to believe in Christianity, that doesn’t really matter because I’m going to push for all sorts of stuff based on it anyway. I’m going to make laws and throw the National Security argument at you no matter what and bully you until you let me get my way, or I’ll send Dick Cheney to shoot you in the face or Karl Rove to devour your soul.

              And, also, if you disagree with me during a time of war, you’re giving aid and comfort the “terrists.”

              • A Puritan Descendant says:

                When he said “with us or against us”, I think he was only refering to other countries.

              • A Puritan Descendant says:

                Also, I don’t recall George being racist or using racism for his benefit. Neither did he use class warfare for his benefit. Any position can be viewed as divisive when half the people are against it.

              • Oh…Matt,,Matt,,Matt……

                DPM…where are you?

              • Mathius says:

                DPM drowned in a bucket of red bull after reading this conversation.

            • George wasn’t dividing the country? You ever get outside the ranch there, bucko?

  63. gmanfortruth says:
    • Mathius says:

      Didn’t you or someone post the entire thing a while ago? It took forever but I found it a very amusing read.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        Flag did, and it was very long. Thought I’d do it this way for alot of my friends who wouldn’t want to read it all at once.

        • Mathius says:

          For my money, if the dollar dies and the global economy goes to hell, I’d bet on anarchy over this scenario..

  64. Topic Shift

    For those who have criticized the amount of federal money going to western states here is a little graphic of what I tried to explain at the time.

    NOTE: I am not offering the article, JUST the MAP for your consideration.

    • Good Grief-What happened to come west young man and we will give you land-how can the government own most of all these western states.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        How else can they pay the 15 trillion dollar debt they have managed to incur?

  65. Charlie Stella

    I am sitting here listening to Karl Rove on the Sean Hannity radio show.

    Rove is heaping praise on Mr. Obama, and defending Mr. Obama’s decisions regarding the attack on UBL and the handling of the body, including burial procedures. He also agrees with holding off on photos due to military and State Dept concerns.

    Charlie Stella and Karl Rove. Who would have thunk it?

  66. A Puritan Descendant says:

    Maybe this was already mentioned but, here is Leon Panetta comfirming waterboarding was used to find Osama Bin Laden. Watch the Brian William’s / Leon Panetta video from NBC.

  67. The first comment on this story was “Makes me think the intel documents found at Bin Laden’s hideout has them running scared” Makes sense to me.

    Wed May 4, 12:03 pm ET
    Al Qaeda member surrenders, Saudi Arabia says
    By Laura Rozen

    By Laura Rozen laura Rozen – Wed May 4, 12:03 pm ET

    In the wake of Osama bin Laden’s demise, is al Qaeda falling apart?

    The Saudi Interior Ministry said today that a senior al Qaeda member on Riyadh’s most-wanted list named Khaled al-Qahtani called from abroad and turned himself in.

    “Interior Ministry’s spokesman Maj. Gen. Mansour Al-Turki said in a statement Wednesday that Khaled Hathal Abdullah al-Atifi al-Qahtani contacted the security authorities from an undisclosed country and expressed his wish to come home,” the Associated Press reports.

    “Al-Qahtani was reunited with his family and his surrender will be taken into consideration while looking into his case, Al-Turki said.”

    The Saudi Interior Ministry spokesman did not indicate when Khaled al-Qahtani gave himself up, but many members of the group’s Yemeni wing, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), have recently fled from Yemen, the AP writes.

    It wasn’t immediately possible to ascertain whether Khaled Al-Qahtani is the brother or relative of Mohammed al-Qahtani, a Saudi-born al Qaeda militant detained at the U.S. military detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Mohammed al-Qahtani, now 32, had been picked up in the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan from which bin Laden is believed to have escaped.

    UPDATE: The two men are not brothers, Gregory Johnson, a Yemen expert with Princeton University, told the Envoy:

    “Al-Qahtani is a common Saudi name and there are many individuals in AQAP with that name…They may be related in some other more distant way.”

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