A Big Question, Continued!

New thread to keep the discussion rolling!  Very interesting reading this week  🙂



  1. Bring forward as ya’ll see fit!

  2. charlieopera says:

    September 26, 2013 at 5:51 pm • Edit

    Something new for yous wingies to deny 🙂


    Yes Charlie, denying what doesn’t exist is easy. Us “wingies” aren’t the gullable types you lefties are 🙂

  3. September 26, 2013 at 5:38 pm • Edit

    Yeah, right … socialist countries … how do they survive? How to they manage? How are they not overthrown by those seeking the wonderful benefits of our royalty first democracy?

    How in the world are we not masters of the universe?

    You wouldn’t be missing the USSR now would you Charlie? Notice how well North Korea is doing lately? Spain? Italy? Shall I go on or can you see reality ?

    • “Shall I go on or can you see reality ?”

      Gee, G, for someone accusing the socialist countries of doing so poorly, this site seems to do an awful lot of whining about this country … 1% vs 99% … maybe it’s me, but the good old US&A seems headed for a cliff (or maybe I’ve heard that here before?) …

      Enjoy the fall over the edge 🙂

      • I didn’t say that Socialism was the ONLY cause of problems, it’s just a proven failure in our time (reality).

        • Except it exists throughout Europe and contrary to all the whining about it here, it isn’t going anywhere … in fact, it seems (according to you wingies) that socialism is what’s starting to take root here 🙂 A beautiful thing indeed. 🙂

      • Historian Ian Kershaw observed that “Without a lost war, revolution, and a pervasive sense of national humiliation, Hitler would have remained a nobody.”

        Then came the inflation crisis. Victorious Allies demanded that Germany pay steep reparations, apparently without giving much thought about how the Germans would get the money for that. Trade restrictions made it harder for German companies to earn money through exports. European tariffs generally tripled and were as much as 800% higher than prewar levels.

        The German government defaulted on its reparations agreement. Determined to extract reparations from the Germans, in January 1923 the French sent troops into the Ruhr where much of German industry was located. The German government responded by subsidizing those who pursued passive resistance against the French. Consequently, German budget deficits soared.

        By itself, reparations would have been daunting, but Germany also had a financially stressed-out welfare state.

        Almost 90 percent of German government spending went for a big bureaucracy, social programs, money-losing nationalized businesses and other subsidies

        — a portfolio of obligations uncomfortably familiar to us. The German government subsidized municipalities, much as U.S. states are begging the federal government for bailouts now. Germany had a troubled government-run pension system like our Social Security. The German government provided health insurance for millions of people. There were German government programs for 1.5 million disabled veterans. The government lavished subsidies on the arts. There were government-run theaters and opera houses. Government-owned railroads lost money. The German government even operated factories producing margarine and sausages, which lost money.

  4. [JAC} “With all of these amendments we should ask……..What is the problem to be resolved.

    In this case it is the establishment of law via regulation that goes outside the legislation passed by Congress.

    So all that is needed to remedy that is to require Congress to APPROVE by majority vote ALL Federal Regulations promulgated by the Executive Branch that are related to implementing laws passed by Congress.

    Personally I am less concerned about a monetary threshold than some agency establishing Criminal thresholds for things that harm nobody. Like jail time for cutting to much firewood.”

    [T-Ray] — I agree that such amendments should would not be necessary if Congress were not so lazy as to delegate authority to the executive in violation of the checks and balances. I think this amendment (#6) needs some fine tuning. I agree with you, the executive should not be able to write “regulations” that have the force of criminal law. It is wrong that any person can be deprived of freedom or property w/o due process (court hearing) and w/o the prosecution presenting a law duly passed by Congress and signed by the President. So I agree, regulations should be approved by Congress and signed by the President. They should also have an automatic sunset clause not exceeding 10 years.

      • Just A Citizen says:

        I wonder WHY the reduction in official marriages should necessarily result in a breakdown of the family unit.

        Since we evolved without this Govt marriage thing yet maintained the family unit, why would we not revert back to that standard?

        Could it be that because we have lived with Govt marriage for so long we have replaced Natural and Common Sense laws, and associated behaviors, with Govt law.

        In turn conflating the two, so when Govt laws are repealed we have not guidance except the assumption that those laws no longer apply.

        It is a curious subject.

      • LOI:

        I had a response tho this article. But, frankly, it’s beneath contempt.

        • What I find funny was when Obama was pitching gay rights to Africa & the Middle East. But how about a change of subject? (warning, it’s a trap)

          Can you state for me today’s exact date?

          • We should pitch gay rights to everyone everywhere because – shocker – gay people are still human beings.

          • Can you state for me today’s exact date?

            Ok, I’ll bite. Today is September 27th, 2013 Anno Domini according to the Gregorian calendar.

            Alternatively, it is the 23rd of Tishrei, 5774 per the Hebrew Calendar.

            Or, if you prefer Mayan:
            baktun 13 katun 0 tun 0 uinal 14 kin 0
            Haab: 18 Chen
            Tzolkin: 11 Ahau

            • You are good, sir! (hat tip)

              Anno Domini or After Death. The world has adopted the Judo/Christian calendar. Why? Not because they like us or look up to us, but because we are the most successful civilization on earth. We use it and they want to trade with us, so gradually adopted it without a fight. This successful civilization can attribute it’s success to some core values, much of which revolve around the ten commandments. Our work ethics, our nuclear family all derive from this base. We have seen a drop in our performance since LBJ’s “Greater Society”. When our government began to reward singly women more than married women for having out-of-wedlock children, marriage rates dropped. A father figure began to dwindle in importance. Adding to that decline will produce no good results!

              I can agree two men/women should be free to do as they please. Add to that, the Repug/Christian efforts to block civil unions were wrong & misguided. That does not mean forcing everyone to call two men who say they are “married” is right or proper. They are free to call themselves whatever they like. I should be free to insist marriage only means the union of a man & woman. My freedom will be taken by force by the people who have enlisted the government to force me to redefine the meaning of something that has stood for thousands of years. And when they are done, they will force me to comply or be branded for some hate crime. So much for free speech…..

    • Just A Citizen says:

      I REJECT your attempt to create moral equivalency between RACISM and not believing Gays should be given a Govt marriage license.

      In fact the bans on interracial marriage during the Jim Crow days was a ban on MEN and WOMEN of different races getting married.

  5. Congresswoman: Obamacare creating health insurance monopolies
    9:30 PM 09/26/2013
    Rep. Renee Ellmers raised awareness of a new problem with Obamacare’s implementation: the creation of private-sector health insurance monopolies that will limit Americans’ provider choices.

    The major health insurance company Blue Cross Blue Shield, which is closely coordinating with the White House on Obamacare implementation, will enjoy perhaps the greatest monopoly of all, the North Carolina Republican said in a statement.

    “Although seven insurance companies currently operate in North Carolina, under the new Obamacare exchanges, those options will dwindle down to one in the majority of counties,” Ellmers said Thursday following the disclosure of figures by federal health officials showing that more than 60 percent of North Carolina counties will have only one insurance provider option under Obamacare: Blue Cross Blue Shield.

    “The whole point of an online marketplace was to provide options, so North Carolinians could go online, compare prices, and choose plans from different companies. That is how competition is supposed to work!,” Ellmers said.

    Beginning October 1 under Obamacare, Blue Cross Blue Shield will be the only health insurance provider serving the entire state of North Carolina in the new Obamacare exchanges, serving all 100 of the state’s counties. Its competitor Coventry Health Care, which is owned by Aetna, will only reach 39 counties.

    That leaves 61 counties, or 61 percent of all the state’s counties, in a Blue Cross Blue Shield-only zone.

    The battle between Blue Cross and Aetna is waging across the country, and Blue Cross is winning.

    Aetna has opted not to participate in Obamacare exchanges in numerous states including New York, Connecticut, Ohio, Maryland, Tennessee, and Texas.

    In West Virginia, where Carelink Health Plans, run by Aetna-owned Coventry Health Care, withdrew from the state’s Obamacare exchange, Highmark Blue Cross Blue Shield will be the only available insurance provider for Obamacare consumers.

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/26/congresswoman-obamacare-creating-health-insurance-monopolies/#ixzz2g6cBYvlk

  6. Just A Citizen says:

    A little note I left for McCain on HuffPo this morning…..Feel free to share it with all your friends. Lets see if SUFA can cause a small swirl in the ocean. Re write this by hand and mail it to Mr. McCain. Sign your name and then include your “Title” as Just A Citizen.

    I suggest you send photo copies along with a personal note to your own Senators and Congressman.

    Memo to Mr. McCain

    The reason you see so much more gridlock is because of your past actions. And those of your fellow Republicans.

    There are certain fundamental principles that exist in this country. Well at least they have until now. It was inevitable that as the Socialist wagon rolled on it would eventually come to this wall where the People say, ENOUGH.

    You and your party friends allowed this journey to happen because you are ALWAYS willing to compromise. Never thinking that the OTHER side is constantly moving towards their goals and directly into the wall.

    So now that a few principled Americans stand up for those of us who understand what has been happening and what is about to happen you scream to high heaven about the “obstructionists”.

    We are engaged in a last ditch battle to turn back the tides of Fabian Socialism Mr. McCain.

    Are you with us or are you against us?


    • “We are engaged in a last ditch battle to turn back the tides of Fabian Socialism Mr. McCain.”

      You are engaged in some severe delusional paranoia, JAC … but you’re ALWAYS entertaining 🙂

    • Good stuff JAC… I’ll get on it.. if I can remember how a pen works…

      • Just A Citizen says:


        A pencil will work as well. IF you can find one….. 🙂

        Lions going to get it together this weekend? How about Sparty?

        • This letter seems more like crayon territory..

        • Pencils I have..got three at the voting booth..was going to use them for kindling 🙂

          Sparty will be fine..Lions? not so sure..but how bout Scherzer and them Tigers? YEAH buddy!

          • Just A Citizen says:


            Did you see the Rivera farewell at Yankee Stadium yesterday?

            One of the greatest endings to a GREAT career I have ever seen.

            Since the Mariners are watching from the couch, once again……Go Tigers.

    • Look, Fascism in Germany was National Socialism. The use of the term “progressive” or “liberal” is a dodge. If you look at openly Socialist governments in Europe, exactly what is the difference between them and the push that the Democrats have on here? If anything, our push wants even more interference in your lives than what happens across the Atlantic. “National Security”, all in the name of National security. Who honestly can spot a dimes worth of difference between Obama and his predecessor? Bush the younger and Tom DeLay both were in the same hurry to spend us into the poorhouse. Whether we make fat cat industrialists rich or sponsors of “Not for Profit” corporations does not, to the rest of us, make much difference.

  7. Just A Citizen says:

    Talk about timing…………… much truth in the conclusion.-??


    • I’d say yes.

      • No, it is incomplete.

        The left, when in power promote their policies, but do not undertake to undo rightist policies.

        The right, when in power promote their policies, but do not undertake to undo leftist policies.

        Obama has not undone a single thing Bush did and Bush did not undo a single thing Clinton did.

        As such, the ratchet effect — each side grows their own political power whilst leaving the other unmolested – which grows both sides political power and reach lock-step without retreat.

        You cannot hope to stop one side, without the other side being forced to stop. Thus, neither will stop.

        Until ALL government goes bankrupt, this effect will continue.

  8. Just A Citizen says:

    Wow Two on the same day. Contradictions or by another name Hypocrisy leading to remaining deliberately ignorant.

    A special section for Charlie Stella……….. re; Jefferson.


  9. My God, you’re a mess, JAC … calm your jets and learn to live a little, mon frère … you spend far too much time on here trying to sound intelligent … go out and enjoy the weather/people/nature … whatever turns you on. Give it a break with the “we’re doomed” nonsense. You’re a puppet of the 1%, we get it. You’ll only get pats on the back here … nobody else cares … lighten up … besides, you can’t handle sound arguments … you either jump into denial mode or counter with the world according to JAC … and as we’ve already decided, you don’t know JACshit, JAC 🙂

    I was having fun with that last line … so you can call off the G-dogs … 🙂

  10. Nor did you get the message … push away from the keyboard and live a little, Hojo 🙂

  11. Big question, and don’t peek at the internet to find out:

    Who made this statement at the UN?

    ““People all over the world are tired of war, violence and extremism. They hope for a change in the status quo. In recent years, a dominant voice has been repeatedly heard: ‘The military option is on the table.’ Against the backdrop of this illegal and ineffective contention, let me say loud and clear that ‘peace is within reach.’”

    And who said this:

    “[We are] prepared to use all elements of our power, including military force, to secure our core interests in the region. We will confront external aggression against our allies and partners…
    We will ensure the free flow of energy from the region to the world.
    We will dismantle terrorist networks that threaten our people. Wherever possible, we will build the capacity of our partners, respect the sovereignty of nations, and work to address the root causes of terror. But when it’s necessary, … we will take direct action.
    And finally, we will not tolerate the development or use of weapons of mass destruction.”

    • I cheated! Sounds good – but as we’ve come to find out from all the “leaders”, words mean nothing – it is the actions that count.


    • Just A Citizen says:


      OK, just making an educated guess given your historical commentary:

      1. New Iranian Pres.
      2. Pres Obama.

      So let me add this: Words often mean nothing in the realm of International Intrigue. There almost always caveats applied to any such statements. For example.

      1. will apply if the world just gets in line with Iran, lets them have nukes and kicks Israel to the curb.

      2. will apply if you do what we say, unless of course we change our mind.

      • JAC

        Words have meaning.
        When one pronounces peace and another pronounces “we’ll do what we want”, it is interesting to see you reverse the statements to be “we’ll only be peaceful if you agree with us” and “we’ll agree as long as you agree with us”

        Yet, there is not one thing the Iranian Pres. said to justify your analysis of him. He made no conditions, yet, you still seemed to need to provide that for him -out of your own mind- because,….?

        • Just A Citizen says:


          I did not offer the comments as an absolute but as an example of the caveats that could exist. My comments could in fact be the reality because they represent the reality up until now.

          I agree words have meaning. But in the world of International communications and Global Chess the ACTUAL meaning may not be what you think it is. Only a fool would simply take their words at face value.

  12. Good lord.

    Flag, I know you could probably help this guy out, but thinking about it, we are better off if he and all of his thinking do stop pro-creating. What a nutcase.


    • That does not help. He is still breathing! He is still emitting CO2! He still uses energy in his daily life. SUICIDE NOW! It’s best for everyone, especially the planet. Off yourself turkey! From your standpoint you are doing the universe a favor. Surprisingly, from my opposite viewpoint you are also doing the universe a favor.

    • Just A Citizen says:


      Yes, I have. In fact I was running numbers the other day that showed my wife and I could get onto the exchanges and get SUBSIDIZED and SAVE MONEY over her current Federal Insurance.

      The remaining issue is of course “quality”.

      These are the kinds of things I think we will see the Dems move to “FIX” as they become apparent.

      Now for my piss and moan session. We took a $20K hit on our savings (underwater home) to move to a new job after the crash. Did Dear Leader propose any programs to help us out? NOPE. Instead we bailed out people who couldn’t pay for their homes in good times. We helped out the unemployed….extending their balance sheet problems. But did they help anyone who did what was necessary to keep working? NOPE.

      Our primary retirement assets were and still are in rental real estate. In order to fund our retirement and our Autistic son’s needs, we need to convert some of those houses to cash.

      Thanks to the Dems and Obama’s ACA the Govt now stands to take close to 40% of the cash from our real estate when we sell it. That is about 7% State and the rest to the FEDS.

      This is because:

      1) They raised the Cap Gains tax.
      2) The cap gain is added to your AGI for calculating the ACA surtaxes. The sale of a single property puts us over the $250,000 threshold.

      The net result is that after spending 40 years working and crimping and doing with out. Getting kids through school and one college with NO DEBT, our govt has jeopardized our retirement plans and our son’s long term care.

      That is if we want to continue living INDEPENDENTLY of the Govt. In short, the DEMOCRAP Party, has now put us in a situation where instead of being contributors we may have to become “consumers”. And all of this was done in the name of “Helping the Middle Class”. Yep, you got that right. The Middle Class just like we have been our entire working lives.

      Thank you Mr. Obama, Mr. Reid and Ms Pelosi. Screw you and the jackasses you rode in on.

      Ranting OFF<

    • Just A Citizen says:


      Did you watch the Drama Prairie Dog clip? LMAO.

  13. Hey Gang!

    This was sent to me via facebook. I have been looking for verification/attribution and can only find one very left wing site. Anybody else see this?

    Submitted without comment:
    “What we have here is our core values as Americans and Christians slipping away into this facade where we should take care of our poor, sick, and disabled,” said Cruz in hour 19 of his filibuster. “It is disheartening to know that the nation our forefathers built is no longer of importance to our president and his Democratic counterparts. Not only that, we are falling away from core Christian values. I don’t know about you, but I believe in the Jesus who died to save himself, not enable lazy followers to be dependent on him. He didn’t walk around all willy nilly just passing out free healthcare to those who were sick, or food to those who were hungry, or clothes to those in need. No, he said get up, brush yourself off, go into town and get a job, and as he hung on the cross he said, ‘I died so that I may live in eternity with my Father. If you want to join us you can die for yourself and your own sins. What do I look like, your savior or something?’ That’s the Jesus I want to see brought back into our core values as a nation. That’s why we need to repeal Obamacare.”
    – R. E. “Ted” Cruz, 2013

    Supposedly said in the 19th hour. Also interested in seeing if it was edited and taken out of context.

    • What do you believe is the core value of Christians?

      Like the vast majority of Christians, “Ted” is utterly clueless of the principles of his dogma and pretends his injection of his own craziness into it makes his crazy a truth.

      • Look, I want verification of the quote, that’s all. It is a stupid statement that does not make a lot of sense.

        Lately, I have been seeing a higher incidence than usual of “manufactured” quotes.

        • Does it matter?

          If he said it, will it improve or dismiss your opinion about him?

          Or does the quote – no matter who posited it – remain idiotic… even if, say, I said vs Charlie vs JAC saying it?

          • As I said, I got this from a friend from college.He was left leaning back then, but now he is over the top. You’re the one who said words and language are important many times in the past. I agree. I m really trying here to show him the error of his ways in spreading half truths or complete fabrications as facts. Worst part is (Sorry Charlie) he is professional writer.

            There are a lot of really good researchers on this site who do great digging. I’m lazy and would rather not have to watch all 19 plus hours of the speech. I have spent some time looking for this and as I said only found it on one sleazy left wing site. any other mentions I have found refer back to that site.

            Another thought I had this morning. Didja ever notice that in all the reviews of Capra’s, ” Mr. Smith Goes to Washington”, nobody ever mentions bathroom breaks yet when Cruz actually does the same thing, the left seems to focus (after dismissing him as crazy of course) on whether he used catheter or a diaper? Wonder if they would do that to one of their own? Silly question.

          • Just A Citizen says:


            The post would remain idiotic and factually incorrect.

            Whether that affected my view of the man would entirely depend upon context. Had he made it was he himself being sarcastic? Was he at this point muddling his thoughts due to lack of sleep? Or did it reveal his own twisted view of Biblical text and Christian teaching.

            And this in itself wouldn’t matter if he was not putting himself forward as a Good Christian.

        • Just my 2 cents worth but I think if he had actually said such a stupid thing it would be headline news.

      • 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

        • Exactly.

          So apply those tenants to anyone proscribing to be a Christian, and evaluate whether they are hypocrites or disciples.

          • Or I might just evaluate most of them as just humans.

            • Yyyyyyyep. Got into a discussion with a friend a couple nights ago. Some people, like my friend and BF, over analyze people and events, to the point of (my) exhaustion. I don’t have enough energy or space in my brain to worry about who’s a hypocrite or a disciple. There are hypocrites everywhere…I can choose to associate with them or not…but they don’t have to answer to me, so I’m not going to spend time categorizing them.. that just creates stress..and I don’t have room for any more stress. I’m busy trying to simplify.

              disclaimer: Still love the way you break stuff down BF,… I’m just sayin…

    • http://www.freewoodpost.com/disclaimer/

      I did some looking -it seems this quote came from Freewoodpost-which is all satire.

      • It was reported that Cruz quoted from Solomon at some point-I suspect it was these quotes that they used to make up their BS. It may well be all these satire sites that are responsible for the increase of bogus quotes which people pass around as real because they think they are real.

  14. Just A Citizen says:

    Good morning and Happy Sunday SUFA.

    A little HISTORY lesson, well viewpoint, this morning. I have often thought Chamberlin got a bad rap and the whole appeasement stick has been used ever since to rationalize any military incursion into any place. How Ironic the Dems are not using it to rationalize Obama’s threat of bombing Syria.


    Before I forget. I also find it funny that this article was posted on Huff Po this morning. Just as the lefts rhetorical defense of Mr. Obama is heating up. The grand wizard has apparently bewitched the Iranians and the Syrians. That is if you listen to the rabble.

    Go Seahawks.

  15. Just A Citizen says:

    Oh my, oh my. I wonder why…………..now at last.


    • And, I wonder, exactly why is there a war for Assad to fight in Syria? Could it be because of the US Insistence on an Arab Spring?

      Everything we seem to do in that neck of the woods comes back to bite us in the ass, threefold!

      • Just A Citizen says:


        I suggest you look at the entire Middle East in the context of two things.

        The first, and most important is that the US is trying to topple Iran’s govt. This obviously would eliminate Iran’s activities in the area. The GOAL is to eliminate Iran.

        Second, Bush’s doctrine upset the “status quo”, opening the door to reach for the Goal. It also allowed us to almost SURROUND Iran. Libya does not happen if not for Bush. Egypt does not happen if not for Bush. Although I am not sure Bush would have let Mubarak swinging in the wind.

        Now look at it again and see if it makes more sense. This does not mean we will succeed or that this is the right course. I just think things make more sense in this context. Remember, the Muslim Brotherhood is an ARAB construct, not Persian.

        • The “Muslim Brotherhood” is not an Arab construct.
          It is a radical construct – genus independent.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            Didn’t the British start them in the 1920″s?

          • Just A Citizen says:

            I will admit that the founder of the Brotherhood was Egyptian. However, the Brotherhood was founded as a fundamentalist Muslim movement. Islam was invented by an Arab and it became the law of the land under Arab control. Actually under the Arab SWORD. And of course later under a Persian SWORD.

            The Brotherhood’s mission is to expand Muslim control with adherence to the fundamental Islamic laws. It was in fact created partly in response to the increasing trend towards secularism in Egypt and Palestine.

            • Ah… just to remind you.

              Christianity was invented by an “Arab”, too – specifically a Palestinian.

              • Just A Citizen says:

                Are JEWS actually Arabs?

                Palestine was a general area occupied by many different people.

              • “Jews” are a religion, not a race.

                If you were Buddhist, does that make you suddenly East Indian?

              • Just A Citizen says:

                Oh, and the people who occupied that area called Palestine in the olden days were NOT Arabs. There were some Arab people living there but they were not dominant.

                Calling the entire region ARAB is a modern construct.

              • Agreed.
                There is no nation, country, religion … that is made of just one people, not even China.

              • Just A Citizen says:

                Whoa now, seems to me we have been told for eons that Jews are a race or at least some sort of ethnic group.

                I agree with you on the reality however. They were one of the many “tribes” of people who inhabited the area and periodically came to dominate a particular area. That is to control politically.

              • “Whoa now, seems to me we have been told for eons that Jews are a race or at least some sort of ethnic group.”


                Historically, Jews have been identified into two major groups: the Ashkenazim, or “Germanics” (“Ashkenaz” meaning “Germany” in Medieval Hebrew, denoting their Central European base), and the Sephardim, or “Hispanics” (“Sefarad” meaning “Hispania” or “Iberia” in Hebrew, denoting their Spanish and Portuguese base).

                The far more recent term Mizrahim, or “Easterners” (“Mizrach” being “East” in Hebrew) to include Middle Eastern and North African Jews, constitutes a third major group to some, following the partition of Palestine, their often-forced migration, and the re-establishment of their communities in Israel.

                Smaller Jewish groups include the Georgian Jews and Mountain Jews from the Caucasus; Indian Jews including the Bene Israel, Bnei Menashe, Cochin Jews and Bene Ephraim; the Romaniotes of Greece; the ancient Italian Jewish community; the Teimanim from the Yemen and Oman; various African Jews, including most numerously the Beta Israel of Ethiopia; the Bukharan Jews of Central Asia; and Chinese Jews, most notably the Kaifeng Jews, as well as various other distinct but now extinct communities.

          • Dread Pirate Mathius says:

            Black Flag,

            The “Muslim Brotherhood” is not an Arab construct.
            It is a radical construct – genus independent.

            But it claims to be Muslim.

            My reading of the source texts does not suggest it is so, but, fortunately, I am not the arbiter of whether or not someone claiming to belong to / speak for /act on behalf of a religion may do so.

            If I grant myself the power and authority to evict the Muslim Brotherhood from Islam, then I grant them the authority to determine whether or not I am Jewish. Or to decide for me if my actions constitute actions on behalf of the Jewish people*.

            Put another way, and in more familiar context: I consider the Westboro Baptist Church to be abhorrent. But I am not authorized to decide that they aren’t “true” Christians. If I did so, then we’d also have to stipulate that they can decide whether others are also true Christians or not, no? Certainly, they would kick all the Christians here out of the club and then they’d have to start calling themselves something else.

            You do not get to determine faith/labels of others. You may wish to suggest that their genus is “Muslim (contested),” but that’s as far as you can go, I think.


            *insofar as there is actually a thing called the “Jewish People.”

            • *shrug*

              They are not a construct of “Arab”, which is the point.

              There is no genus called “Muslim” nor “Jewish” – these are religions, not race.

              • Dread Pirate Mathius says:

                I see. I think, perhaps, I missed your point.

                Your point isn’t that they’re “not Muslim,” but that they’re “not Arab.” Is that correct?

                And, of course, Arab ≠ Muslim (I think we can all agree with this).

              • Correct.

                It is dangerous to assign a radicalization of a religious group to be equal to a race.

              • Dread Pirate Mathius says:

                It is dangerous to assign a radicalization of a religious group to be equal to a race.


                By the same token, it’s dangerous to assign radicalization of a splinter group of a religion to the religion as a whole.

                But, unfortunately, human beings are wired to be pattern recognition engines, and we’re very good at it. But sometimes those algorithms misfire. Thus why so many Americans think Arab = Muslim, Muslim = T’rrist.

                I think we’ve been though my thought process on why this happens before (if I recall correctly, you said that you were going to borrow the theory from me and claim it as your own). It has to do with the Narcissism of Small Differences. If you’re interested, I’ll elaborate, but otherwise, I won’t waste the keystrokes.

        • Well, Bush set the game in motion with the Iraq invasion. Quadaffi, got rid of his WMD’s without firing a shot at him. He was effectively neutralized. Taking him out was the big O’s idea. I remember the dumb neo-cons talking about how, with Iraq and Afghanistan, they had Iran surrounded. When I looked at the same map I saw Iraq surrounded!

          In the scheme of things, despite all the assurances of both administrations, these were not new “Vietnams” When the other guy has a privileged sanctuary he can withdraw to and a Ho Chi Minh trail, it is Vietnam all over again.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            Protecting the Petrodollar can cause lots of problems. Without the dollar as the “reserve currency”, our government would be finished. Their survival depends on it.

  16. Anyone else watching this SNAP special on Fox? Absolutely disgusting.

    • Have it on in the background…trying not to hear it.

    • Missed it-Some details please 🙂 You too Anita-I know you heard it 🙂

      • Same ol BS. Trot a bunch of people out..like the surfer dude who’s living large on lobster and sushi he proudly bought with his EBT card…just to show how easy it is to scam the system. Bret Baeir hosted, and i do like him, but from what i ‘didn’t hear’ there were no solutions offered.

  17. gmanfortruth says:

    The dispute over Obamacare means it is “99.9%” certain that the US government will “shut down” on October 1st because lawmakers have failed to pass legislation that will authorize the government to spend money to fund its operations from the beginning of the new fiscal year.

    However, as the Washington Post highlights, the same “shut down” has occurred 17 times since 1977. Most of the previous shut downs lasted from a few hours to a few days. The longest ran for 21 days from December ’96 to January ’97 during the presidency of Bill Clinton.

    Obama supporters and Democrats have attempted to portray a potential government shut down as something approaching a doomsday scenario, most notably Democratic Senator Tom Harkin, who hyped the prospect of it “as dangerous as the breakup of the Union before the Civil War.”

    In reality, key functions of the government will continue to operate as before even in the event of a “shut down”.

    – Federal air traffic controllers will continue to monitor take offs and landings;

    – The TSA will still be screening passengers in US airports;

    – The US military will stay on duty and many credit unions and banks will cover their Oct. 15 paychecks if they are delayed;

    – Embassies and consulates overseas will continue to provide services to American citizens;

    – The mail will continue to be delivered;

    – Federal courts will continue to operate;

    – The US Supreme Court will continue to operate as normal when it resumes on October 7;

    – Taxes will continue to be collected;

    – Sales taxes will continue to be collected

    – Garbage will continue to be collected;

    – Visa services for people traveling to the United States will continue to operate;

    – US passport applications will continue to be processed normally;

    – Green card applications will continue to be processed normally;

    – Social Security and Medicare benefits will continue to operate normally;

    – The vast majority of Homeland Security employees will stay on the job;

    – The vast majority of Coast Guard employees will stay on the job;

    – The vast majority of Border Patrol agents will stay on the job;

    – The vast majority of Secret Service personnel and other law enforcement agents and officers will stay on the job;

    – Schools will stay open;

    – The National Weather Service and the National Hurricane Center will continue to issue natural disaster warnings and track storms;

    – The Mars Rover will continue to explore the red planet and the International Space Station will continue to operate;

    – The District of Columbia passed a $144m contingency fund on Friday to ensure all its services would continue to operate normally;

    – Most services managed by the Department of Veterans Affairs will continue.

    The most damaging consequence of a government shut down will be that non-essential federal employees will be furloughed (given temporary unpaid leave) and see their paychecks delayed. That’s a bummer if you work for the government, but it’s hardly a doomsday scenario.

    In addition, previous “government shut downs” have not caused any kind of sustained panic in the financial markets.

    As Ron Paul writes today, “Despite all the hand-wringing heard in DC, a short-term government shut down (which doesn’t actually shut down the government) will not cause the country to collapse.”

    Indeed, all the hype about civil wars and doomsday scenarios if the Obama administration doesn’t get its way on Obamacare and force Republicans to cave on legislation to fund the government sounds an awful lot like the brazenly alarmist rhetoric about martial law and a new great depression that was used to ram through the 2008 bailout.

    I say, shut ’em down!

  18. Well, it looks like the dems are gonna wait until the government has officially closed down-blame it on the republicans-then rush to the rescue and save the country by agreeing to get rid of the medical devise tax-and claim to be the ones who were willing to compromise and the republicans will pat their backs that they got something-something the dems. already want to get rid of-Just turns one’s stomach to watch all this BS.

  19. Dread Pirate Mathius says:


  20. The Madison campus is known for being extremely radical left, but get a load of this:


    • gmanfortruth says:

      You should be used to being looked at as a racist by now! All us “whiteys” are racist, just ask Charlie 🙂

    • Just A Citizen says:


      Boy do I feel inadequate when it comes to using the English language now. I should say, even more inadequate. Never did have a great command of the language, a view supported by ALL of my English teachers over the years.

  21. Just A Citizen says:

    Spousal Unit Leader returned from a business trip early last week so she could get her folks prepared for a SHUT DOWN.

    Today she is focused on getting mechanisms in place in order to maintain prior commitments DURING THE SHUT DOWN.

    The Administration has been pushing fear of Shut Down on Fed employees for several weeks. This tells me they expected this and probably wanted it. That is unless the R’s simply swallowed the ACA and the debt ceiling increase without a fight.

    Remember, the GOAL is to destroy the Republican Party. It is not to Govern prudently at this point.

  22. Just A Citizen says:


    NOTE: HE did NOT create Nation States. Only the geography of land and sea.

  23. Just A Citizen says:


    Seems to me we covered this debate one before but lets continue anyway. I am curious. So here is the Wikipedia description of the Jewish people. They are an ethnoreligous group. Here is the definition of that term:

    An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background. Ethnoreligious communities define their ethnic identity neither exclusively by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation, but often through a combination of both[citation needed] (a long shared history; a cultural tradition of its own; either a common geographical origin, or descent from a small number of common ancestors; a common language, not necessarily peculiar to the group; a common literature peculiar to the group; a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups; being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community).[citation needed]

    Examples of ethnic groups defined by ancestral religions are the Jews, the Druze of the Levant, the Copts of Egypt, the Yazidi of northern Iraq, the Zoroastrians of Iran and India, and the Serer of Senegal, the Gambia, and Mauritania.[1]

    The ORIGIN of this group is described as being those tribes related to the biblical characters who dominated Israel, or as Israelites or Hebrews.

    Note those people who claim to be JEWISH yet do not practice Judaism. I believe one of those hangs around here. 🙂

    • Yet the fact remains that such a claim about Jews is incorrect.

      How does a bunch of Germans claim heritage to a Palestinian called “Abraham”? They can’t. They are no different then USWeapon calling himself “Buddhist” doesn’t make him Indian.

      • Just A Citizen says:


        Two possibilities.

        1. Migration of the people who identified themselves as Israelites, Hebrew or Jewish.

        2. Migration of the religion.

        Most Jewish people I have ever met claim it was number 1.

        • Of course they do, it fits their myth of the “chosen people”.

          No matter their race, they are determined to trace back their lineage to someone called “Abraham” as part of their myth. If you can’t, you ain’t chosen.

          From myths of “lost tribes”, etc. they all make those stories since being God’s chosen people seems important to all of them.

    • With regard to ethnicity:

      The reality of it is that we are all somehow related.

      What was originally “Jewish” in terms of ethnicity, is now spread all over the place. There are billions of “Jews”, and they are mixed with everything else, just like other ethnic groups.

      There have been so many migrations and integrations of culture throughout history that the human race is basically made up of a lot of mutts.

      If we survive long enough, one day we will all be so blended that we are the same ethnicity, indistinguishable in terms of ‘race’.

      • Dread Pirate Mathius says:

        “There are billions of “Jews””

        There are? I get the newsletter – I don’t think there are that many of us on the distribution list..

        • I meant that with respect to bloodlines, not faith.

          The original tribes split up all over the place, and have interbred with so many other ethnicities that DNA from the original has been diluted into billions.

          Do the math… 140K+ people have 2 or 3 children, which each have 2 or 3 children, and so on…

          How many generations before there are billions with the same DNA?

          Considering all the migrations and integrations of bloodlines, how many other groups are interbred in the process over a few thousand years?

          • The math is easy:
            You have 2 parents, who have 2 parents each, who have 2 parents each, etc.

            2^35 = +70 billion… but 35 generations ago (or about 850 years ago) – all totaling the birth and death of humanity, is less than that vastly less than that….. (It is estimated that 75,000,000,000 humans have been born and died in the last 600,000 years.”)

            It means, that we all share some relative or relatives since 1160, and almost certainly since 1492.

            • Dread Pirate Mathius says:

              It means, that we all share some relative or relatives since 1160, and almost certainly since 1492.

              It is probable that isolated pockets exist / have existed which have not interbred with the general pool. If you’re going to talk about the last 600,000 years, this is extraordinarily unlikely, but over the previous 500-1,000 years, it is distinctly plausible. For example, some Central American tribes living in the rain forests of Brazil, Inuits, Papua New Guineans, etc. At least some set of these are almost certain to have bloodlines which have remained intact during this period.

              But, as a general rule, your point is valid.

              • Even those, I would seriously doubt they are “intact” – Inuit with French and English explorers/ Central America with the Spanish and African Negros/ Papua New Guineans with English, Belgian and Dutch.

                It would be, IMO, harder to show such DNA “intactness” then not – in other words, I think you wouldn’t be able to find any (though that doesn’t dismiss the very slight possibility)

              • Better said, though, is “European / European decent” are all related back less than 500 years, same as Chinese of Chinese decent, and Indians of India’n decent.

              • It is now like $ 100.00 to get this done. I intend to. A couple of interesting results have popped on the news recently. The intermingling of Native American with Viking blood going back a good 1,000 years for example. Since my Dad’s family sat astride the traditional invasion route from Asia things might be interesting.

                Don’t tell Charlie about that Viking thing. Might ruin his day.


  24. Just A Citizen says:

    Good lord fellas. You sure took my Muslim Brotherhood comment on a side trip.

    My comment was dealing with what people see as a contradiction where in the US is supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.

    My point is that if you look at the USA actions, regardless of administration, you see the decisions line up on context of the USA trying to undo Iranian power in the region.

    Whether that is due to bad feelings over the embassy takeover or over protecting Israel, doesn’t matter much. It simply makes more sense if you put it in that context.

    As for this Brotherhood vs. Arab thing I never assigned the radicalism to a race. I said that the Muslim Brotherhood was an Arab construct in the sense that its founders and most ardent supporters since then were Arab. Why is this relevant? Because Islam and the concept of the Islamic Caliphate originated with the Arab tribes.

    The guy who established the brotherhood was from Egypt. So he may have been Egyptian and not Arab. But he obviously had adopted the Fundamentalist view of the religion that existed among Arabs. And he may have been of Arab decent but that in itself is not important.

    The connection is Saudi Arabia in terms of modern times. The Brotherhood is a radical group pushing fundamentalism. So people ask why would we support them?

    Then ask WHY do we support the Saudis. The Arab peninsula has been the epicenter of the radical fundamentalist movement.

    Why are the Iranians supporting Hassad in Syria while the Brotherhood is supporting some of the rebels?

    So we support the brotherhood in Egypt, but why. Well if you consider that the USA Policy is to oppose Iran and its surrogates then the USA is going to support anyone they view as opposed to Iranian control. The Arabs, including their fundamentalists seem threatened by Iran. That old tribal and religious sect thing conflicting with the general “Muslim” unification efforts. Anyway, we wind up helping or at least remaining silent over the brotherhood.

    After all, how are they much different that our Saudi allies?? At their core anyway.

    The flaw in this argument lies primarily, in my opinion, with whether the fundamentalists in Arabia in fact view Iran as a threat or is it ONLY the Royalty that fear them?

    I see the middle east as a struggle between THREE Traditional Islamic Leaders.

    Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Mixed within this is the struggle between the two major divisions of Islam, Sunni and Sharia.

    Frankly, I think Israel is a side show. One that allows some unification among the other three as well as justification for numerous clandestine operations.

    Of course in the middle of all this is the United States and Russia.

    All combined, a very TOXIC MIX.

    Now if someone has a differing viewpoint I would appreciate a comprehensive answer and not nitpicking over whether someone is Arab or Of the Arabs.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      JAC, IMHO, the whole Middle east thing is all about money, not religion. Iran wants to sell it’s oil without the use of the dollar, as was Libya at one point. Not sure why Egypt became a mess, I’m thinking just plain economics in the country (I could be way off here). Syria is all about natural gas and Qatar. All of this is, of course, part of the big picture that would keep our dollar as the reserve currency. Without the US having that in place, the US will fall apart rather quickly.

      THe loss of the Petrodollar would be devastating to our country, but it will happen at some point. Our idiots in DC are trying to keep their place of power, and as such, so goes the destruction of all those who choose to do away with the petrodollar.

      Just my Opinion, nothing more 🙂

  25. Just A Citizen says:

    Along the lines of FIXING things.

    WHY should the Senate have any say on the Federal Budget?

    If anything, maybe their concurrence should ONLY be needed on appropriations for Dept of State and the various HAND OUT programs for International relations. Since Treaties and such are within the Senate’s purview.

    If that were in place then the House and Mr. Obama would have to deal with each other directly. A 2/3 vote in the House could override his Veto.

    Thinking on that, maybe 2/3 is to high a threshold on Appropriations Veto, as long as the legislation is limited to passing the Budget and Appropriations.

    • Thinking on this today. We are now in a Post democratic world. Rush read an editorial from some guy at Bloomberg news wherein the guy was going on that the new matrix is for the government passing good laws without any regard to whether the “people” support them or want them. Of course, the definition of a “good” law is left up to people like hm. The fellow was specifically referencing Obamcare and the lack of popular support. There is no time, in the future, to pay attention how people think or what they want because of the need for immediacy.

      If you follow this type of thinking to its logical conclusion, the need for elected officials with any real power also diminishes. Heaven forbid that they represent the views of their constituents.

      His new, no, our new post-democratic world sounds suspiciously like what was cast off two hundred plus years ago. Actually it sounds like something that was finally reigned in during the 13th Century when the Magna Carta was signed.

      Don’t you just love the way history runs in cycles.

      • Just A Citizen says:


        Somewhere I read that there has been nothing new discovered in the realm of political philosophy in over a hundred years.

        With all my reading and discussions with others this may very well be true. Thus we don’t have NEW forks in the road to take. Just the same long circle with the same old junctions, leading to the same old results and the wheels on the bus go around and around. 🙂

        My disagreement with this is that while new ideas have not surfaced, there are certainly some NEW choices when it comes to IMPLMENTATION.

        Maybe we could IMPLEMENT the system that many thought they were creating in 1776 or again in 1787. Maybe this time we could give it a real chance to see if it would work or not.

        • JAC

          It would be wonderful if we could do this. Unfortunately, we have, as a society become lazy. If you mesh psychology with History (something Issac Asimov explored in the “Foundation” SF Trilogy) you see the psychological factors which like plate tectonics change the planet, change the face of politics.

          The West has no sense of history. The average voter out there ( I refuse to call them citizen, they don’t deserve it) knows only the present. He thinks the past was like the present and he believes the future will be like the present. Because he does not have to struggle to make his daily bread, he is content. In many ways, he is infantile. When I say infantile, I mean infantile. Think of how a baby acts and compare that to what you see on the television. Cry loud enough and they pop the pacifier in your mouth.

          The wife and I keep coming back to the same thing. If the modern American was ever confronted with what the 1930-1940’s generation faced, the pharmaceutical industry would have the first ten spots on the DOW. Oh, and we would probably surrender.

    • Sounds kinda like “sour grapes” JAC.

      You disagree with those in control of the Senate, so they shouldn’t have any say.

      Let the House deal with Obama directly, and then they can override a veto…

      But since the House doesn’t have the 2/3 vote to override an Obama veto, let’s just let the House override an Obama veto with a majority vote…

      You just want to change the rules so you get your way…kinda like a spoiled child who blames the “rules” for losing…

      • Just A Citizen says:


        Not sour grapes at all Todd. This debacle for the umpteenth time combined with our discussions about returning Senators to being chosen by the State legislatures got me thinking.

        WHY should the Senate have role in appropriations beyond its clear area of authority?

        If the Fed is about spending the People’s money, then should not the People’s House make that decision.

        I know this removes one of the checks and it increases the risk of ONE party control over funding.

        But at the same time it might IMPROVE our ability to get business done for efficiently.

        We could increase the threshold for approving a budget in the House, thus making sure a majority of one could not force their views down the throats of the others.

        Besides, the House traditionally has greater diversity of views anyway.

        Seems you always assume the worst in people Todd. 🙂

        I was just brainstorming ideas as we have been doing the past week or so.

  26. Tell Me How This Ends

    By G. Tracy Mehan, III on 9.30.13 @ 6:08AM

    What is the end game for House Republicans?

    As a mossback and fiscal conservative, I certainly believe in cutting the federal budget, reforming entitlements, and, yes, deep-sixing Obamacare at the earliest opportunity. But as I watch the unfolding drama (or is it melodrama?) on Capitol Hill, I find myself repeating the famous line uttered by General David Petraeus during the Iraq War: “Tell me how this ends.”

    Political and military stratagems require consideration of the end game before, rather than after, you pick a fight. Despite past history and current polling, many conservative members in Congress think they can win a showdown on defunding or delaying Obamacare through the federal budget process, rather than by winning elections, and still come out smelling like roses.

    Sometime late Saturday night the Republicans in the House, with the coerced support of Speaker John Boehner, nearly guaranteed the first shutdown of the federal government in 17 years by voting, 231-172, to approve a funding bill that includes a one-year delay of Obamacare’s mandates, taxes, and benefits. “We are united in the House as Republicans,” declared Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R.-VA).

    Of course the Democrats in the Senate, in the majority and backed up by a certain presidential veto, hold the commanding heights. They are never going to pass such a bill. After all, Obamacare is the “signature” achievement of President Obama and represents the Holy Grail of progressive politics since the New Deal. White House press secretary Jay Carney spoke for the Senate and the President calling the Republican strategy “reckless and irresponsible.”

    “Any member of the Republican Party who votes for this bill is voting for a shutdown,” said Carney in a written statement that captures, succinctly, the whip with which the Democrats and the mainstream media will scourge the Republicans mercilessly.

    Current federal budget authority expires on Monday at midnight.

    How will this end? Badly, I am afraid. Republican Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, who is usually in close touch with his House colleagues, says, “It is going to be tough for them. I don’t have a clear vision how we move through this.”

    And Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-GA), one of the more conservative House members and candidate for the U.S. Senate in 2014, admits to having no idea as to what happens when the Democratic Senate rejects the House bill. “We really didn’t talk about exactly what the plan would be then.” Incredible.

    We have seen this movie before, and it does not end well for the GOP. The American people are trending toward fiscal conservatism and disenchantment with President Obama. A recent Bloomberg National Poll (September 20-23) indicated that Americans by a 2-1 ratio disagree with the President’s contention that Congress should raise the U.S. debt limit without conditions. Sixty-one percent say that it is “right to require spending cuts when the debt ceiling is raised even if it risks default,” because Congress lacks discipline. But threatening to shut down the government, much less following through on the threat, has never been popular and will harm the Republican brand terribly. The whiff of a banana republic now envelops the House Republican caucus.

    House Republicans have raised expectations of at least part of the GOP base as to the prospects of derailing Obamacare through budget machinations. It will be a very sorry sight to watch them cave to the Senate and Administration. The press and the public will be of one mind in opposition to a shutdown and will heap opprobrium upon them until they break.

    While many House Republicans hold very safe seats, the real fear is that their negativity impacts the GOP’s Senate candidates in the 2014 elections. Having missed the opportunity to take back control of the upper body in two previous elections, due in part to feckless candidates and political ham-handedness, it would be tragic if they blew a third chance to capture control of the Senate and set the stage for true governance and budgetary and legislative reform.

    The House Republicans need to forget short-term maneuvering and think about the long game.


    I find I agree with this guy-if you’re not going to stand firm, it’s best not to do it-but then if you’re not going to stand firm on something this big-why the hell should I bother to vote for you-what possible difference does you’re being in office do me-if all the big changes happen with or without you?

    i agree with this guy-Win or Go HOME!!!! Shut it down and don’t give an inch-Pretend your a democrat in the right way.

    • http://spectator.org/archives/2013/09/30/win-or-go-home/1

      Yes, Win or Go Home guys because I for one will not be voting for any of you who do not. I said last time-I was going to give the Tea Party guys a chance-and I’ll still give those who stand up support-but all you others who have decided the words -A government shutdown- means the democrats win -not a chance do you get my vote

    • There are ways to play this but you have to be smart enough to use them. The point has been made that the Obamcare debacle needs to be watched as it unfolds. There is a whole lot of “I told you so” coming down the pike but it must be delivered carefully.

      The mantra should be, “He won’t even talk”. “Reid and his boys want the Cadillac plan for themselves while you get the crumbs”. “His legacy is more important than your life” nd other useful little catchphrases.

      The guys running the GOP unanimously rejected Cruz, the filibuster and his allies. They have really lost touch with the American people who actually vote. “Light” beer is not as tasty as the real thing. “Almost” liberalism as practiced by Graham, Rove and McCain is not the “real” thing and goes nowhere.

      I am getting to respect Christie’s acumen in NJ more and more. When he announced that the special election to fill Lautenbergs seat would be held in October, everybody jumped to the conclusion that he did it to forestall any democrat surge in the general because of the popularity of Cory Booker (the new O’Bama). Supposedly, though Christie will win big, he wants to win bigger and that would have been threatened. Watching the polls recently, Booker seems in trouble against a small town mayor Steve Lonagan. People are paying attention to the Senate election which they would not have done before.Booker’s tweeting a stripper a few thousand times, hanging out with Hollywood celebs instead of taking care of business and being slumlord have all surprisingly hit the news. So, Lonagan is moving up in the polls and traditionally, only the most committed come out for non-general elections. I don’t expect n upset but stranger things have happened (Brown in Mass). Perhaps the best shot Lonagan has is because of Christie.

      As abrasive as Christie is and is unforgiving, I really think he “gets” it. One must actually win an election to govern. Both he and Guilliani ran as moderates in overwhelmingly blue states and yet governed conservatively when elected and were (and will be in Christie’s case) re-elected. Unlike Scott Brown, they stuck with their base principles after being elected and never tried to shape shift.

  27. You’re gonna have to explain that logic because I don’t get it.

    • Who, me?

      If a man is asking for your vote, he is a man who believes he is a God on Earth, capable of deciding, for you, what your wants and desires are better then you can for yourself.

      He is a man so certain of that belief, he is willing to force you to follow his demand – including killing you if necessary, to prove he is right.

      Such a man does not deserve a vote.

      • If a man is asking for your vote, he is a man who believes he is a God on Earth, capable of deciding, for you, what your wants and desires are better then you can for yourself.

        Or he could be offering to represent your wants and desires.

        He is a man so certain of that belief, he is willing to force you to follow his demand – including killing you if necessary, to prove he is right.

        Or he could be willing to work peacefully to improve things for everyone.

        Such a man does not deserve a vote.

        You’re right – The man you describe does not deserve a vote.

        I find it interesting you assume the worst in people in our current society, but if we adopt your anarchy, somehow everyone will suddenly get along peacefully…

        • Just A Citizen says:


          ROTFLMAO………….. I bet you’ve been waiting awhile for that opening.

          I think I can predict the response, but still it was well played Sir, well played.

  28. Poland has cancelled 100% of its bonds – essentially defaulting on all of them.

    This is a selective default – other aspects of its funding and spending remain intact, for the moment.

    This is the future of the USA.

  29. gmanfortruth says:

    The Govt is now partially shutdown, so what? The only people who I feel bad for are the workers who just want to make a living, but, this was going to happen eventually. If there was an actual budget, the one required by law, this wouldn’t happen. If Obama didn’t illegally change the law and give his friends breaks, this may not have happened.

    So, the world did not end. Who’s fault? The voters, who else. Ya’ll voted these bums in, now it’s up to you to hold them accountable, which we all know, you won’t! It’s a rigged game anyway, so try as you might, you can’t win at the polls.

    For those on a sudden furlough, enjoy the time off.

  30. Just A Citizen says:

    Running thoughts tied to the CR vs Obamacare mess.

    For those who have doubted my claim that the Progressive wing of the Dem party is fascist at heart, let me bring to your attention the many speeches and inflammatory articles and comments made in the media yesterday.

    Those raising the specter of Patriotism. The ones accusing the R’s of tyranny, being traitors, not “standing up for your country”, terrorists, trying to destroy this country, equating to the Confederacy, etc, etc, etc.

    Funny how that Nationalistic rhetoric comes to the surface when they get really upset.

    Harry Reid and his minions may have permanently POISONED the WELL yesterday afternoon and last night. Boehner’s short press announcement was awful. People said it was because he was tired. What I saw was OUTRAGE in the man’s face. And I don’t think it was aimed at the Tea Party this time.

    The other thing I saw last night was Bair’s panel getting scorched by emails from those Fox Viewers. It was fun to hear him reading them and watching the panel tell the citizens how WRONG they were. Just like the Politicians tell us we are WRONG.

    Krauthammer really baffled me last night. He cited all the reasons the R’s cannot and will not win any concessions with the CR then went on and said the extension of the debt limit was the RIGHT place to have this fight. His main reason? Because a majority of Americans support NOT extending the Debt Ceiling.

    Uh, hello…………has anyone remembered a time when the crisis gets closer the POLLING DATA changes??? As more pay attention and the EXPERTS start screaming about the disaster that will happen do you think the POLLING DATA will remain strongly AGAINST raising the limit? Sorry but I don’t. Why? Just go back and see how public opinion ended the last time we did this.

    If the Dems stood firm this time, why not next time. Nothing has changed in the game. The media is still carrying their Rhetoric and Framing for them. This is the Republicans being cry babies and trying to black mail the Country. Does anyone think that story line is going to change? I don’t.

    There is still nobody able to articulate the core principles at stake and WHY this fight must occur NOW and not later. Instead we heard the Speaker say this was about being Fair to the American People. Really?? Fairness?? Yeah, I am going to march right into a Political Battle where my career will most likely be destroyed over “fairness”.

    • Not sure about Krauthammer anymore. While generally I agree with the guy, he veers off a lot into wanting to invade other countries and “protect” the people and establish democratic rule.

      Why the Repubs just don’t publish this: com·pro·mise
      noun: compromise; plural noun: compromises

      an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
      “an ability to listen to two sides in a dispute, and devise a compromise acceptable to both”
      synonyms: agreement, understanding, settlement, terms, deal, trade-off, bargain; More
      middle ground, happy medium, balance
      “they reached a compromise”
      give and take, concession, cooperation
      “a happy marriage needs compromise”
      antonyms: intransigence
      a middle state between conflicting opinions or actions reached by mutual concession or modification.
      “a compromise between commercial appeal and historical interest”
      the acceptance of standards that are lower than is desirable.
      “sexism should be tackled without compromise”

      verb: compromise; 3rd person present: compromises; past tense: compromised; past participle: compromised; gerund or present participle: compromising

      settle a dispute by mutual concession.
      “in the end we compromised and deferred the issue”
      synonyms: meet each other halfway, come to an understanding, make a deal, make concessions, find a happy medium, strike a balance; More
      give and take
      “we compromised”
      settle (a dispute) by mutual concession.
      “I should compromise the matter with my father”
      weaken (a reputation or principle) by accepting standards that are lower than is desirable.
      “commercial pressures could compromise safety”
      synonyms: undermine, weaken, damage, harm; More
      jeopardize, prejudice;
      discredit, dishonor, shame, embarrass
      “his actions could compromise his reputation”
      accept standards that are lower than is desirable.
      “we were not prepared to compromise on safety”
      bring into disrepute or danger by indiscreet, foolish, or reckless behavior.
      “situations in which his troops could be compromised”

      I don’t understand

  31. Just A Citizen says:

    A thought on the upcoming Debt Limit Debacle.

    I think that the reason the Debt has not moved since May is that the Administration is setting a deliberate trap for the R’s.

    If you recall last time, the R’s could show how going past the deadline date would NOT really result in a “Default”.

    Well the Administration has been covering the continued DEFICIT by spending money from other funding pots. Essentially borrowing all the remaining cash in the system. That same cash that the R’s showed last time could be used to pay the bills with a huge cut on the Govt operations side.

    So if I am right, there will be NO flexibility this time. It will come down to CUTTING huge chunks of Govt. to keep under the limit.

    Oh, and any attempt to delay the ACA Mandate will only increase the DEBT, at least in the projections.,

    Funny how the Dems tied that all together, don’t you think?

    Now if only there was a few Politicians or Leaders with the megaphone that could explain this all to the public.

    Instead the media hype since last night has been “The R’s blocked the D’s attempt at a budget Conference 18 times this past year”. So why should they ask now. This of course fits the narrative that the R’s have INTENDED to shut down the Govt all along. Because the R’s HATE the USA and they HATE our Govt and thus they HATE We the People.

  32. Just A Citizen says:

    One more thing, on the shutdown. Information for your understanding.

    The Executive Branch has considerable discretion when deciding WHO must stay home and WHO get to stay at work. Those told to stay will get paid. The LAW required it. They may get delayed but they will get paid. I went through several of these and the “criteria” for who was “essential” changed each time. Funny how that is, don’t you think?

    Spousal Unit Leader’s agency had a plan to stay open for this entire week. They had enough money from prior appropriations to run that long. This plan was in place and had been reviewed a month ago. Last Friday they were told NO. They would have to shut down. I am guessing but pretty sure this would be true for other agencies as well.

    Why? Because the Administration can’t afford to have some agencies remain open. It destroys the Crisis and Disaster narrative. At the same time, there is a risk that Congress wouldn’t return full funding retroactively, so the funds spent could be lost.

    Obligations made to States will not be touched and those States I know have can continue their functions that are Fed funding dependent for maybe a month. This may not hold true for all State functions, but for those I am aware of.

    As it stands all personnel involved in protection of life and property will remain on duty. I believe this applies to ALL FED AGENCIES.

    I do have one irritating thing to bring up regarding the Fed agencies. I saw where Fed Employees were demonstrating, with premanufactured signs, demanding that the CR be passed to they could continue working. Their mouthpiece made several inflammatory and partisan comments to the media. Yes, it is the Fed employees Union. Partisan political posturing on Govt facilities is strictly prohibited by law. So is political activities that reflect badly on the Agency’s mission. But then I think these were EPA employees.

    So what does that tell you? The EPA employees taking time off to picket and demonstrate, attacking only the Republicans. The IRS scandal is only the tip of the Ice Berg.

  33. Mathius™ says:
  34. Just A Citizen says:

    I do have a few questions for the Cruz supporters and Cruz and his buddies as well.

    They had to KNOW that the Dems would not give an inch. They have done nothing to prep the battle field to even give them a chance.

    So WHY? WHAT was the real reason for forcing the R house to take a position that can only harm the party in the eyes of Independents and some Republicans?

    Is the WHY going to be worth the damage done? Do you have an end game and if so what the hell is it.

    Did you really think your base would abandon you if you explained this was simply not doable right now and they need to focus on the NEXT election cycle?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    • I look at it this way. It put the issue front and center. The issue, in my opinion has never seen the full light of day. Pelosi’s stupid, unchallenged comment about pass it to see it was an example. The press could not ignore this.

      The poll numbers on Obamacare seem to indicate that people are now watching. Obviously Cruz and Paul and their ilk think this important and think that not just rolling over helped. Shining the light of day on Syria seemed to have stopped the headlong rush into another disaster by the administration.

      Extracting themselves is going to take some doing. personally, let the government stay shut for a few weeks, then announce that you’re getting nowhere with the intransigent democrats and then sit back and snipe at every glitch.

      • Just A Citizen says:

        I wouldn’t let it go past tomorrow.

        That gives time to prepare the media blitz and find an articulate pretty face to deliver the message. That means somebody versed in speaking, not one of the elected politicians.

        They have to be able to hold a conversation and not feel like they are reading talking points. That means NOT Boehner and NOT McConnell.

  35. Just A Citizen says:

    Question for SUFA

    Does anyone think Americans would elect a President who was, oh say 77 years old when elected?

    • Mathius™ says:

      These days? And who is his VP?

      Probably not. But who knows?

      • Just A Citizen says:

        Yes, as in two years from now.

        I don’t know who the VP would be, but NOT Hillary and NOT Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich. A “younger” person.

        • Mathius™ says:

          Dunno.. a lot rides on that VP. 77 is not young. Remember Palin – she might not have been as huge of a negative for some people if McCain had been a younger man.

          In all honesty, had McCain been somewhat less unhinged during the campaign and picked someone less insane, he might have had my vote. It wasn’t as major of a factor, say, in Romney’s campaign because he was younger.

          • Just A Citizen says:


            I do believe McCain is why he lost, and not Palin. While some may have gulped and claimed they voted against her, that would not have been an issue if McCain hadn’t come across as feeble minded and feeble physically.

            I also knew he has a terrible temper. Not something I would like to see in the person holding the football. 🙂

            OK, so who would you like to see as the Dem VP who runs with Jerry Brown?

  36. The Dems will be sending thank you flowers and booze to the Reps for this incredibly dumb-ass move … let’s here it for Hillary Clinton, the next Republican in drag Democratic president of these United States of Ameri-cha!


  37. Just A Citizen says:

    Just had a thought and wanted to share it.

    All my life the Academics have argued FOR a TWO PARTY system. Lets just say they have no end of reasons why this has worked better for us than the systems of other nations with many parties and thus “coalition” govts.

    But what is the goal of the politician? To be able to declare a mandate in order to force his or her policies through. This is easier to claim in a two person race because one gets 50% plus one of the total vote.

    The establishment hated the Non of the Above ballot option when it was proposed. They only accepted it when various States made it non binding. If NOA won, then the second place person was elected. But this diluted their victory.

    Playing off BF’s theory of voting and why “they” seek good turnout, “affirmation”, then we need MORE parties. The MORE the merrier.

    If a winner gets elected with 25% of the general vote they can’t really declare any kind of mandate. And on any particular issue they will be forced to form partnerships with others.

    Now if this is valid, the Tea Party should not worry about dividing the Republican party into two parts. Simply start a new party and start winning some local elections.

    The challenge is in that last part. Breaking the tendency of voters to check either D or R in the box. No matter how independent they claim to be, that is what most people do.

    So there you go. Something to mull over. Happy Shut Down Day.

    • Now if this is valid, the Tea Party should not worry about dividing the Republican party into two parts. Simply start a new party and start winning some local elections.

      Funny stuff … of course the problem is the tea party consists of lunatics … so the very small percentage of voters supporting it will have their way in their tiny little districts … while the rest of the country does its best to remain educated enough to know the tea baggers are lunatics … it’s a great cycle 🙂

      • Just A Citizen says:

        Says the guy who proposes voting for the GREEN PARTY all the time.

        One of the benefits of living in this Socialist country is that quite often the Lunatics get to run the Asylum. Tick tock, tick tock, our time is coming.

  38. Green, socialist, communist, take your pick, JAC … the point being, people will come around to my way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they’ll regress to yours … it’s called evolution 🙂

  39. “Stand Up For America” LOL! (Beware of spit coming through screen)


  40. Looks like there are a lot of glitches today. Here’s a pretty major one and I bet we’ll hear a lot of stories like this:


    • Yet it remains the law of the land … constitutional, just like all a’yous conservatives claim it needs to be … so get used to it, pals of mine … it’s only going to get better (universal health care) … Go Socialism!

  41. USA! USA!
    US Exceptionalism – the proof!

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