What’s On Your mind?

Time to speed things up again. Each day, it seems that more and more crappy things come out about the ACA. If this is just a step towards Single Payer UHC, then I don’t want to see the next step. It’s a complete failure and simply will not ever work as the Liberals intended. I would like someone to clarify something, where did the ACA originate, the HoR or the Senate?

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Comments

  1. gmanfortruth says:

    Sorry to hear about your knee Charlie. Yes, arthritis sucks 😦

  2. gmanfortruth says:

    Charlie, “And no tax for those who voted for the genius who lied us into one war and ran both wars (he started) on a credit card? Now, Kathy, aren’t you being a bit one-sided?

    Please PROVE that he lied. What actual evidence do you have that Bush was simply repeating the intelligence he was given? I’m guess, NONE BWAHAHAHA!

    Hope your knee feels better, joint pain sucks. Period.

    • Off topic but I can’t resist G 🙂
      George Zimmerman just learned that assaulting someone who’s NOT BLACK can get you arrested, like, right away.

    • He claimed there were WMD … there weren’t. Good enough for me (and remember I voted for the imbecile). 🙂

      • Zimmerman claimed there were WMD”s?

        • The Zimster claimed he was going to die because a 17 year old kid was kicking his ass. I guess today he thought his girlfriend was going to kick his ass. You gotta love it.

          • Oh, and did I mention he never paid his lawyers? He took all that right wing money, went out and partied … what’s that again about sheeple? In Brooklyn we call them suckers … 🙂

            • gmanfortruth says:

              LOL, I thought it was funny SK 🙂

              Charlie, Let’s wait to see what the real story is this time with Z, Based on the 1st situation, we all know who the SUCKER around here really was (look in the mirror 🙂 ), Better safe than sorry after your first embarrassment, don’t you think?

              Truthfully, I think Bush lied and knew it, about Iraq. But unlike this loser in the White House now, it’s almost impossible to prove. With that said, I will leave you with a now famous Liberal quote” What Difference Does it Matter Now?” 🙂 BWAHAHAHAHA!

              • G, Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater girl … she’s more conservative than the guy in the WH right now who’s made the 1% more money than any president before him … so quoting Hillary isn’t close to quoting a liberal.

                As for GZ … I guess you think OJ was not guilty too 🙂

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Sorry Charlie, Hillary is on YOUR side as you like to put it. She stumped for the clown in Va that you so willingly said you won. Your only bullshitting yourself there pal, the rest of us KNOW BETTER 🙂 As far as OJ, (I really didn’t follow that mess, I was overseas), did he get jumped by a thug too?

          • You must be off. I thought it was a good joke.

    • And more corruption in this adm – this time the Census:

      http://nypost.com/2013/11/18/census-faked-2012-election-jobs-report/

    • Gonna add this article to yours, It adds some additional information which clarifies things even more.

      Course I remember during Obama’s election- there was the situation of the DOJ demanding information they really had no right to. Seems to be a pattern-all this information gathering. And the attacks on republican Americans.

      Walker Faces Another Partisan Probe
      The timing of this investigation is extremely suspect.
      By Christian Schneider

      As the recall-election campaign against Wisconsin governor Scott Walker wound down in June 2012, Democrats completely abandoned their reason for attempting to yank Walker out of office in the first place. While the election had originally been about the ability of public unions to collectively bargain, in its final weeks Democrats pivoted to a “John Doe” investigation of some former staffers who had worked for Walker during his tenure as Milwaukee county executive.

      Well before the election, several of these former staffers were charged with crimes — one for child enticement, one for stealing money from a veterans’ fund, and one for sending political e-mails on government time. Yet despite Walker himself not having been accused of anything improper, his opponent, Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, ran television ads drenched in innuendo, attempting to declare Walker guilty simply for, among other things, setting up a legal fund to defend himself. On his Twitter feed, then-spokesman for the Wisconsin Democratic party Graeme Zielinski accused Walker of bankrolling the defense fund of men accused of “boy rape.” (I kept score of the more ridiculous John Doe–related attacks here.)
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      Of course, despite the attempts to sully his reputation, Walker won. On March 1 of this year, away from the din of marching protesters and vuvuzelas, prosecutors closed the three-year-long investigation with no charges against Walker. Needless to say, his exoneration did not provoke a stream of apologies from Democrats who had mercilessly smeared him over the previous year.

      But while the investigation went away, the investigators did not. The same prosecutors who went after Walker prior to his recall election have now returned, launching another John Doe investigation into whether conservative groups may have unlawfully coordinated to help Walker win the recall.

      According to a piece in the Wall Street Journal over the weekend, subpoenas for these groups have been issued over the past month:

      Copies of two subpoenas we’ve seen demand “all memoranda, email . . . correspondence, and communications” both internally and between the subpoena target and some 29 conservative groups, including Wisconsin and national nonprofits, political vendors and party committees. The groups include the League of American Voters, Wisconsin Family Action, Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce, Americans for Prosperity — Wisconsin, American Crossroads, the Republican Governors Association, Friends of Scott Walker and the Republican Party of Wisconsin.

      One subpoena also demands “all records of income received, including fundraising information and the identity of persons contributing to the corporation.” In other words, tell us who your donors are.

      These subpoenas seek to accomplish what campaign-finance reformers have failed at so miserably over the past decade: to expose the names of people who support conservative causes but contribute to third-party groups anonymously. In many cases, conservative donors want to remain anonymous in order to prevent the type of intimidation tactics virulent liberals will use against them. (As the WSJ notes, during Walker’s recall, many businesses that supported Walker were “outed,” and thus subject to boycotts by union sympathizers.)

      It appears that investigators are looking into whether these groups provided Walker’s campaign with a “benefit” that should have been reported on Walker’s finance reports, and whether these benefits were improperly coordinated with Walker’s reelection effort. But what constitutes a “benefit” is certainly vague. Any number of actions can affect an election, and few of them ever show up on an official finance report.

      It is particularly troubling that the investigation targets only conservative groups; apparently all the pro-union money that flooded into Wisconsin to help unseat Walker doesn’t quite gnaw on the consciences of these particular investigators. One needs to look no further than the Internal Revenue Service scandal from earlier this year to realize how dangerous partisan government can be when it has an agenda.

      But even if these investigators don’t find any “coordination” between Walker’s campaign and conservative groups — and campaign coordination is an extremely difficult charge to prove — the real damage may be in the investigation itself. Walker is up for reelection in 2014, which coincides perfectly with this latest probe. At the very least, this active investigation could chill would-be donors to Walker’s 2014 campaign.

      Further, as conservative activist Eric O’Keefe told the Wall Street Journal, “the process is the punishment.” In fact, John Doe proceedings are supposed to be secret, so O’Keefe could face sanctions for speaking out — yet during the last John Doe investigation, details of the proceedings that made Walker look bad were routinely leaked to media outlets, with no repercussions.

      After any election, an overzealous prosecutor could perform an ex post facto review and determine that an independent group’s actions constituted a benefit to a campaign. It appears that such a specious review may be occurring in Wisconsin right now, as the timing and partisanship of this recent probe are extremely suspect. If we find out after Walker’s 2014 election that this John Doe has once again turned up nothing, perhaps Democrats should be required to report the investigation itself as a campaign benefit.

      http://www.nationalreview.com/article/364243/walker-faces-another-partisan-probe-christian-schneider

  3. I’m pretty sure no one here will read this, but it describes many here at SUFA, and explains the cause and effect of the general attitude here.

    America’s angriest white men: Up close with racism, rage and Southern supremacy

    http://www.salon.com/2013/11/17/americas_angriest_white_men_up_close_with_racism_rage_and_southern_supremacy/

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Todd

      “I’m pretty sure no one here will read this,” I READ IT, STRIKE ONE.

      ” but it describes many here at SUFA,” REALLY? WHO? I THINK THAT IS STRIKE TWO.

      ” and explains the cause and effect of the general attitude here.” STRIKE THREE. MOST PEOPLE HERE HAVE NEVER BEEN FARMERS, RANCHERS OR LOGGERS. NOT ONE HAS DISPLAYED WHITE SUPREMISIST LEANINGS.

      YOUR COMMENTARY DOES SEEM TO FIT OUR STEREOTYPE OF YOU LEFT WINGERS THOUGH. TAKE A FEW STORIES FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLE, SPIN THEM INTO GROUPS AND THEN LINK THEM TO SOME OBNOXIOUS OUTLIARS. POOF, ALL LOWER MIDDLE CLASS WHITE MEN ARE NOW WOMEN HATING RACISTS.

      FUNNY THING TODD. THOSE “ENCAMPMENTS” THE AUTHOR MENTIONED? I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL. THEY ARE FILLED WITH URBAN COPS AND POLICEMEN FROM LA, SAN DIEGO AND SAN FRANCISCO. THOSE GATED COMMUNITIES WERE BUILT BY THE INVESTMENT BANKERS AND DOT COM TECHIES FROM SILICON VALLEY.

      THOSE SONS OF THE FARMERS AND LOGGERS WHO LOST THE FAMILY LEGACY? THEY ARE SITTING ON THE OUTSIDE LAUGHING AT THE CITY SLICKER SURVIVALISTS.

      • Just A Citizen says:

        On second thought the article seems to be describing Charlie Stella and his constant hate speech.

        So maybe there is at least ONE person on SUFA that would fit the story line.

        • Nah, JAC, that article describes you and yours … Todd nailed it (as usual) … and you (as usual) have to turn it around because you (your own emperor) is naked once again 🙂

          Constant hate speech … the other SUFA mantra … criticize American foibles and you’re a hater … weak, JAC … very weak (as usual).

        • And No, JAC-Charlie likes to push people’s buttons and his political views drive me crazy, which he’s aware of-but no one on here fit’s that calculating BS article.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            Right wing white folks are all racist! That ‘a the MO if the Left, tell a lie enough times , people will believe it. I wonder how many black racist gangbangers are in our inner cities? Funny how the Left NEVER talks about that, guess they can’t blame anyone but themselves for that, so they won’t discuss it

          • Just A Citizen says:

            V.H.

            I obviously did not explain well enough. It is not the racism component I am referring to with respect to Charlie and his tribe.

            The article is playing off the theory that the disaffected angry middle aged white men turned to the hard “right” in response to the collapse of the middle class. That they turned against their Govt because of this.

            Yet it is this SAME disaffection and abandonment that caused middle aged white men to flock to the 99% OWS rallies. To rant against the Govt and then propose COMMUISM as the solution. It is also the same disaffection that caused the younger people do join in. Please note here, the original “organizers” of the OWS movement were NOT young people. They were people in their 40’s and 50’s.

            So when it comes to SUFA proper, Charlie is the closest to meeting the description of the Angry White Man who is primarily upset over the economic status quo. He and his tribe are the ones looking to DESTROY our current system and replace it with their Tyrannical Communist/Socialist utopia.

            Most of the rest of us are angry at the rot within our Govt AND Society that has allowed all of this to happen. We wish to FIX it even while hating what it has become.

            Todd could have made some great points that do apply from within this article. But unfortunately he decided to pull a drive by smear on everyone. It is not wonder Charlie thinks he “hits the mark”, they share the same style much of the time.

            • I’m glad you clarified-I mean I’ll give Todd that I have seen some postings that I thought were rude and over the top-but Todd your point was lost by going so wayyyy, wayyyy over the top. It makes you look worse than what you are complaining about. Or maybe I’m giving you too much credit-maybe you actually believe this crap.

            • Yes JAC,
              Ignore all the parts that fit SUFA, and blame it all on the left and OWS.

              Most of the rest of us are angry at the rot within our Govt AND Society that has allowed all of this to happen. We wish to FIX it even while hating what it has become.

              That’s exactly the point of the article…

              • Really, that’s the point-I saw points I agreed with-honest complaints about what government policies do to destroy and hurt people just trying to make a living but it was so mixed up with conclusions of hate, racism, and you obviously did it too yourself that I can’t see that was the point of the argument.

              • Just A Citizen says:

                Todd

                I did not ignore anything. That is simply a hollow accusation by you.

                I did not blame anything on the left or OWS. So another hollow accusation by you.

                And the point was not that we are upset with Govt. The entire point of the article was to LINK people upset with Govt to Neo Nazi White Supremacist shit heads and thus label us all as just a bunch of spoiled and entitled man white men.

                So if you are mad and white and a man you must therefore be a Skin Head. That was the point of the article.

                Now as I said above, there is good information and some food for good discussion within the article But YOU did NOT bring that up or place it in any other context. You simply drove by and threw it upon everyone as a testament to what most people on SUFA base their beliefs.

      • JAC,
        It seems you used to put more thought into your posts. Now they’re all just reactionary rants. Maybe a little too much SUFA for you…

        Some quotes that would fit in right here at SUFA:

        flying the Confederate flag is a culturally approved symbol of “southern pride”

        blaming the farmers’ troubles on Jewish bankers and the one-world government

        racial and ethnic paranoia in rural America, as well as an equally long tradition of collective local action and vigilante justice.

        There remains a widespread notion that “Jews, African-Americans, and other minority-group members ‘do not entirely belong

        And many have moved from their deindustrializing cities, foreclosed suburban tracts, and wasted farmlands to smaller rural areas because they seek the companionship of like-minded fellows, in relatively remote areas far from large numbers of nonwhites and Jews and where they can organize, train, and build protective fortresses. (Does this sound like anyone here at SUFA???)

        Many groups have established refuge in rural communities, where they can practice military tactics, stockpile food and weapons, hone their survivalist skills, and become self-sufficient in preparation for Armageddon, the final race war, or whatever cataclysm they envision.

        A large proportion of the extreme right wing are military veterans.

        Some veterans believed they were sold out by the government, caving in to effeminate cowardly protesters; they can no longer trust the government to fight for what is right.

        They feel they’ve been used, pawns in a larger political game, serving their country honorably only to be spit out and stepped on when they returned home to slashed veteran benefits, bureaucratic indifference to post-traumatic stress disorder, and general social contempt for having fought in the war in the first place.

        They believed they were entitled to be hailed as heroes, as had earlier generations of American veterans, not to be scorned as outcasts.

        the extreme Right is populated by downwardly mobile, lower-middle-class white men.

        protesting for equal rights for white people

        “Race blindness” leads working-class people to turn right; if they did see class, they’d turn left and make common cause with different races in the same economic class. (I thought this was really interesting – had never thought of this)

        They are the sons of skilled workers in industries like textiles and tobacco, the sons of the owners of small farms, shops, and grocery stores. (you kinda “skimped” on the jobs you listed…)

        They complain that they are squeezed between the omnivorous jaws of global capital concentration and a federal bureaucracy that is at best indifferent to their plight and at worst complicit in their demise.

        It has been felt the most not by the adult men who were the tradesmen, shopkeepers, and skilled workers, but by their sons, by the young men whose inheritance has been seemingly stolen from them. They feel entitled and deprived—and furious. These angry young men are the foot soldiers of the armies of rage that have sprung up around the world.

        And it was their fathers who lost it all, squandered their birthright. Instead of getting angry at their fathers, Andy and his comrades claim the mantle of the grandfathers, displace their rage outward, onto an impermeable and unfeeling government bureaucracy that didn’t offer help, onto soulless corporations that squeezed them mercilessly.

        “It is hardly surprising, then, that American men—lacking confidence in the government and the economy, troubled by the changing relations between the sexes, uncertain of their identity or their future—began to dream, to fantasize about the powers and features of another kind of man who could retake and reorder the world. And the hero of all these dreams was the paramilitary warrior.” (we hear this a lot – even the title SUFA implies this revolt – but nothing ever happens…you guys are too busy blogging to actually do anything)

        These are the sons of small-town America, the Jeffersonian yeoman of the nineteenth century, disfigured by global restructuring and economic downturns. They come from the “large and growing number of US citizens disaffected from and alienated by a government that seems indifferent, if not hostile, to their interests. This predominantly white, male, and middle-and working-class sector has been buffeted by global economic restructuring with its attendant job losses, declining real wages, and social dislocations. While under economic stress, this sector has also seen its traditional privileges and status challenged by 1960s-style social movements, such as feminism, minority rights, and environmentalism.” (is this SUFA all rolled-up into one paragraph or what?)

        The sons of these farmers and shopkeepers expected to—and felt entitled to—inherit their fathers’ legacy. And when it became evident it was not going to happen, they became murderously angry—at a system that emasculated their fathers and threatens their manhood. They live in what they call a “Walmart economy” and are governed by a “nanny state” that doles out their birthright to ungrateful and undeserving immigrants. What they want, says one guy, is to “take back what is rightfully ours.” (any questions?)

        They’re every white guy who believed that this land was his land, was made for you and me. They’re every down-on-his-luck guy who just wanted to live a decent life but got stepped on, every character in a Bruce Springsteen or Merle Haggard song, every cop, soldier, auto mechanic, steelworker, and construction worker in America’s small towns who can’t make ends meet and wonders why everyone else is getting a break except him.

        they take a hard right turn, ultimately supporting the very people who have dispossessed them.

        They’re America’s Everymen, whose pain at downward mobility and whose anger at what they see as an indifferent government have become twisted by a hate that tells them they are better than others, disfigured by a resentment so deep that there are no more bridges to be built, no more ladders of upward mobility to be climbed, a howl of pain mangled into the scream of a warrior. Their rage is as sad as it is frightening, as impotent as it is shrill. (SUFA!!)

        For one thing, they are ferociously procapitalist. They are firm believers in the free market and free enterprise. They just don’t like what it’s brought. They like capitalism; they just hate corporations. They identify, often, as the vast middle class of office workers and white-collar employees, even though that is hardly their class background. They’ve a fungible understanding of class warfare.

        support capitalist enterprise and entrepreneurship, even those who make it rich, but especially the virtues of the small proprietor, but are vehemently antiurban, anticosmopolitan, and anticorporate.

        Theirs is the Jeffersonian vision of a nation of producers—not financiers, not bankers, and not those other “masters of the universe” whose entire careers consist of cutting the cake ever more finely and living on the crumbs. It’s Andrew Jackson’s producerist attack on the “parasitic” bankers. It is “the desire to own small property, to produce crops and foodstuffs, to control local affairs, to be served but never coerced by a representative government, and to have traditional ways of life and labor respected (take our country back, anyone??? Or how about Ayn Rand??)

        the extreme Right is extremely patriotic. They love their country, their flag, and everything it stands for. These are the guys who get teary at the playing of the national anthem, who choke up when they hear the word America. They have bumper stickers on their pick ups that show the flag with the slogan “These colors don’t run.”

        The problem is that the America they love doesn’t happen to be the America in which they live. They love America—but they hate its government. They believe that the government has become so un-American that it has joined in global institutions that undermine and threaten the American way of life. Many fuse critiques of international organizations such as the United Nations with protectionism and neoisolationism, arguing that all internationalisms are part of a larger Zionist conspiracy.

        “Environmentalists wouldn’t let me run my cows cause some damn little sparrow they said was endangered lived on my place,” “They took my farm,” “The IRS took everything I owned.” “These people believe the government is responsible for where they are, because they are finding themselves ignored, basically, by the economic system. People are losing their homes, their farms, their jobs, their sources of income. Corporations have been allowed to move wherever they want, and to take away jobs by the truckload. People are becoming economically dispossessed.”

        “many youngsters see themselves as being forced to compete with nonwhites for the available minimum wage, service economy jobs that have replaced their parents’ unionized industry opportunities.”

        That such ardent patriots are so passionately antigovernment might strike the observer as contradictory (I had a hard time with this attitude, but SUFA showed how being “selective” allowed you guys to believe this stuff)

        The extreme Right faces the difficult cognitive task of maintaining their faith in America and in capitalism and simultaneously providing an analysis of an indifferent state, at best, or an actively interventionist one, at worst, and a way to embrace capitalism, despite a cynical corporate logic that leaves them, often literally, out in the cold—homeless, jobless, hopeless.

        Finally, they believe themselves to be the true heirs of the real America. They are the ones who are entitled to inherit the bounty of the American system. It’s their birthright—as native-born, white American men.

        all these have come together to leave white workers feeling as if everyone else is getting a piece of the action while they get nothing.”

        white men as victim, the “other” as undeservedly privileged (we hear this at SUFA quite a bit…)

        We live in a fun-house version of America, Buchanan argues, where minorities rule and white folks are the new oppressed minority. It was ours, but it’s not anymore. It has been taken—because we let it! And the fact that it has been stolen from us leaves white American men feeling emasculated—and furious.

        It is through a decidedly gendered and sexualized rhetoric of masculinity that this contradiction between loving America and hating its government, loving capitalism and hating its corporate iterations, is resolved.

        provide an explanation for the feelings of entitlement thwarted, fixing the blame squarely on “others” whom the state must now serve at the expense of white men.

        These men feel emasculated by big money and big government. In their eyes, most white American men collude in their emasculation. They’ve grown soft, feminized, weak. White supremacist websites abound with complaints about the “whimpering collapse of the blond male,” the “legions of sissies and weaklings, of flabby, limp-wristed, non-aggressive, non-physical, indecisive, slack-jawed, fearful males who, while still heterosexual in theory and practice, have not even a vestige of the old macho spirit.”

        Well, I had to cut-n-paste most of the article – cause so much of it fits SUFA. I will say that the overt racism, anti-Semitism, anti-feminism, and white supremists are not staples here at SUFA, but the general attitude of the article fits.

        What you’re missing is that the author actually has empathy for these people. He agrees they’ve been screwed by our society, but their anger, like the anger here at SUFA, is misguided.

        • It’s too late to look at all these copy and post entries but lets look at this one-There remains a widespread notion that “Jews, African-Americans, and other minority-group members ‘do not entirely belong.

          BS , BS, BS And screw this man’s supposed sympathy-this type of sympathy based on total BS charges is an insult to any thinking American especially those who live in the South or happen to be white or evangelical Christians, which to this man seems to be a curse word. Do you live here Todd, I live right outside of Memphis, Tn. and there are good people of all races who live here and we are not segregated for the most part-but guess what people who come from places like California remark on when they come here-they are surprised by the racism coming from the black community. But the hugeeeeeee majority of people black and white ,still get that this is a small percentage of people-People are friggin people, we all have our faults and we all have our prejudices that come from our life experiences, but these are basically small, inconsequential feelings that every thinking human rejects and fights against because we realize that it’s based on a small percentage of asses from both races. Sympathy, seriously, I think he wants to promote the hate he accuses us of. And the crap about Jews and other minorities-give me a break, I don’t even know what the man it talking about.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            VH, What you are seeing, before your eyes, is the Liberal Left continuing to try and rewrite history. THEY invented and perfected racism (see the entire history of the KKK). See the Congressional voting records on the major issue involving civil rights for blacks (These votes don’t lie, unlike many Liberals today). Also, they were against women voting as well. This is how they operate, “just like Hitler”, tell the lie long enough and people will believe it. Obama and his followers are perfect present day examples.

            Let’s see how some of the questions I ask below get answered 🙂

    • Wow Todd when you decide to drop by and insult everyone-you go whole hog. Funny after reading this very long diatribe – close to the end the guy reveals he’s talking about these hundred thousand white supremacists?” Might easily miss it-course I suspect that was his intention.

    • I always knew it was that damned Bruce Springsteen song causing all the problems.

      Seriously though, a rant like that article, lacks one thing. A solution! What is being described is part of that transformative change that Dear Leader seeks. Let me slide in the continuing plight of Coal miners. They have lost am their livelihood because of technological improvement in the industry and because of government who does not want them digging holes in the ground anymore.

      Who else, steelworkers? Shipbuilders? The assembly line at GM? All people the multi-millionaires Springsteen and Michael Moore rail about but do nothing to help. (As an aside, I love Springsteen”s concern for Asbury Park. With his money he could buy the place and turn it into Disneyland).

      What do the politicians give us? They give us unrestricted immigration with no end in sight to drive down labor cost and make it impossible for a smaller farm to compete with agribusiness or anybody, native or otherwise to break into the middle class. White middle American angst exists for the benefit of the left and the right. Furthermore, they give us a “world” economy where despite Black Flag’s assertations that all live better because they possess massive amounts of cheap “stuff:”, we know they surely don’t.

      The day will come in the not too distant future when the “stuff” sits on the shelves because the workers cannot afford it anymore. The day will come when the major corporations and their stockholders realize that they just cannot sell enough BMW’s or Lexus or other high end vehicles or “stuff” to make any profit. The government tries mightily now to re-invigorate the same criminal, nonsensical bank lending practices that they stoked in the ’90’s and they will again succeed for awhile but it will all come crashing down around their heads.

      We have met the enemy and he is us. Charlie does not like capitalists. I have forgotten to ask the question in the past, does he or Matt or Buck or Todd own and stock in a publicly traded corporation. If they do, then they can look in they mirror for the “capitalists”. They and all those miserable institutions like hospitals and universities and union pension plans who hold that stock and demand more and more of a return every year sow the seeds of our own destruction. .

      • Stephen,

        What do the politicians give us?

        This is exactly the point! They’re not giving YOU enough!

        And yes, I own stock and I believe in capitalism. But certain parts of it have been allowed to run rough-shod over our society and people.

        • Glad to hear you are part of the Capitalist system. But, you have to ask why it is running roughshod over the people? I just want people to do a little reverse engineering and see what is different now than before. That is really all it takes. If the problem did not exist before but it exists now, then something changed. What?

          Institutional investing and fund managers is my guess. They call the shots as to whether the factory is profitable enough.

          I wuill giove three corporations, some of which you may be familiar with.

          Woolworth’s, Gimbels and Alexanders. All three were successful corporations making money for their owners/investors. All three went out of business. The reason? They were not making ENOUGH money. All three had large real estate holdings which, when liquidated, yielded a fortune. Investors made out like bandits. Workers lost good paying, mostly union jobs. Who forced the issue? Who continues to force the issue?

          I do not understand your comment about politicians not giving ME enough. My question was, what do they do for us, the American people, which will help the American people and help build the country making it better for the American people? Points I made were that they are essentially in it for themselves and are, at the very least, guilty of malfeasance.

      • “We have met the enemy and he is us. Charlie does not like capitalists. I have forgotten to ask the question in the past, does he or Matt or Buck or Todd own and stock in a publicly traded corporation. If they do, then they can look in they mirror for the “capitalists”. They and all those miserable institutions like hospitals and universities and union pension plans who hold that stock and demand more and more of a return every year sow the seeds of our own destruction.”

      • We have met the enemy and he is us. Charlie does not like capitalists. I have forgotten to ask the question in the past, does he or Matt or Buck or Todd own and stock in a publicly traded corporation. If they do, then they can look in they mirror for the “capitalists”.

        Actually, no, Stephen, that’s a pretty piss-poor argument (if that’s what you’re attempting here).

        I could care less about “capitalists” (i.e., people) … what I’m against is capitalism (HUGE difference). I’m living in a capitalist society (contrary to what Gman and BF and whoever else in SUFA is intent on deluding themselves with in regards to this isn’t a capitalist economy) and I don’t really have a choice about what to do with my 401K, etc. … I’m a slave like you were a slave before your retirement and everybody else working for a living here is a slave. I have more options than most in this society (in general) not because of the greatness of America, but because I was born white middle class and had enough education to veer from one job to another (blue collar to white collar, etc.) … and, to shatter a myth, like most socialists, I’ve worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time (currently 2) … as does my wife work 2 jobs … capitalism no longer works in America (it never really did if you want to include all those it bypassed or exploited) … what happened in the 50’s and 60’s for much (not all) of white America was at the expense of others … and once big money saw the loopholes built into the system, it took the system over. It’s pretty black and white, if you can manage to remove the blinders.

    • Well looky here, SUFA’s very own Oprah.

      You totally, totally nailed us, Todd. Those of us who think, who use our brains, who spend a lot of time researching and figuring out what the back end and real story is compared to the talking points. We are nothing but KKK card-carrying racists that would just love everything this adm. has done….if only he was white.

      You’re a fool, Todd. Your implications are disgusting and I don’t know if you are ignorant or are just too lazy to use your brain. But to pull the race card – you make me sick.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Now lets look at how this type of thing is DELIBERATELY constructed and then spread to FRAME the political discourse. Following is a “comment” on Huff Po this morning regarding Chris Christy and comments by Rand Paul.

      It is nice when they so quickly provide us evidence of their “original thinking”.

      “But it is OK if he does it to others…just not you right?
      LOL.

      No wonder Tpublicans have only rural, low educated, white males as a base and that they cannot win national elections”

    • Dang Todd. I didn’t realize we were that bad of people to hang out with. Because we’re conservative, we’re also extreme right wing white supremists? I don’t know anyone on here who is that far out. But because we’re white conservatives we have to lie down and take everything? We’re not allowed to get upset at an ever growing, changing, corrupt, and wasteful government? It was fine and dandy for the LEFT WHITE GUYS to rant during the Bush days. I think you lefties are scared that if the right could get our message out better, then the people might realize we’re right. Otherwise, why the push back by the left? The IRS targeting tea party groups, using conservatives like Palin as punching bags, just plain old blocking the conservative message wherever possible.

      I’ll admit to wanting to run for the hills though. But I don’t want to run so I can start planning some white, right wing takeover of government. I want to run to get away from the craziness of the 24/7 world. Hey? You live in nowhere land don’t you? Yeeaaah buddy! You closet right wing supremist ! (how ever you spell the damn word)

      • Anita,
        Yes, I live in the middle of no-where, but my compound is set-up to stop these crazy-right-wingers from entering!! 😉

  4. Just A Citizen says:

    The REAL lesson in the Obama Care fiasco and subsequent political kabuki dance is the DANCE ITSELF.

    Notice how they pivoted quickly to “we knew that” and “of course the old BAD plans would be eliminated, that is what we wanted all along”, etc, etc. etc.

    But even the Dance itself is not the big story.

    It is that these SCUM BAGS, and I apologize to actual scum and bags for linking you to these politician, actually BELIEVE that if they repeat this garbage often enough and long enough the STORY WILL WORK.

    They will get those good little sheep back in the pen just in time for the next election.

    And the PRESS STANDS BY with their thumbs stuck up their proverbial echo chambers.

    Not since the Cheney Wing of the last Administration constantly tied Hussein to 9/11 and linked him to Al Quiada have we seen anything so blatant. Although this group makes the Cheney crowd look like pop warner league.

    The very fact that politicians and pundits on major cable and network TV are saying this crap over and over and NOT BEING FLOGGED IN PUBLIC is very disheartening.

    Every interviewer who gets one of these “talking point” speeches should simply look the person in the eye and say “you are a despicable liar, sir/madam.”

    Good thing the Panthers pulled it out or I would be really depressed right now.

  5. Just A Citizen says:

    More evidence of the tyranny within our Govt. Read the article carefully and then ask yourself WHY would they connect the Silk Road with the Ricin attack in testimony. WHY would they mention the “inability to track” as an issue. WHAT does that tell you about our current system?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/18/obama-ricin-silk-road_n_4298926.html

  6. Just A Citizen says:

    Just so…………….Progressive, don’t you think?

    From the latest ACA advertising in Colorado, ala Michelle Malkin.

    ““Let’s Get Physical. OMG, he’s hot! Let’s hope he’s as easy to get as this birth control. My health insurance covers the pill, which means all I have to worry about is getting him between the covers. I got insurance. Now you can, too.””

    Then when Limbaugh had the audacity to point out that the left was once again pushing slutty behavior to sell the ACA he was attacked once again as a Misogynist. Threats of boycotts and vendors dropping advertising. All for speaking the TRUTH.

  7. Hi JAC……just back from Mexico….our place down there ran into some security problems that had to be handled personally…since Mexico does not allow its citizens to own anything other than a shotgun,,,,,,security is now in place, albeit the cows did get out….but no more will. In Mexico, you are allowed to have armed private security but its citizens are not allowed to own weaponry…..since the PRI party has once again taken over, the day of the mordida is alive and well. Cars being confiscated, silver being confiscated……it is becoming a free for all down there.

    But back now….will try to catch up on the last weeks worth of stuff…here is hoping you held the fort down.

    I left town and my Longhorns lost…..sigh.

    Hope you and yours are doing fine….read Todd’s link….nothing to add to your remarks but it is sad to say that people believe articles like that.

    Hope you and yours are doing fine…

    • Just A Citizen says:

      d13

      Good morning Sir. I was wondering what happened to you lately. I am thinking your family really should ABANDON the “South 40” so to speak. Would be much safer in the long run.

      Unless of course you want to organize another Texas Revolt instead. 😉

      Things are well here, still progressing towards our move. Although the WHERE of that is still not settled. Daughter has decided to move here. Needless to say that has created some “tension” over my desire to leave ASAP for the Rocky Mtns. 🙂

      Your Longhorns played well, but were simply overmatched enough to make the difference. But they are certainly looking much better than at the beginning of the year. I am guessing there will be some Changes coming to Longhorn Nation this off season.

      Big hug to your dear Wife if you please. And best wishes to the rest of your clan….

  8. Just A Citizen says:

    Very interesting short read on the banking and mortgage disasters.

    I find it funny how everyone is screaming to prosecute “obvious fraud” including the Federal Judge who is acting very “un-Judge like”, but the Judge has to propose SEVERAL theories instead of just one Factual reason.

    Please note that several of the “theories” include reasons that have been posted before but attacked by left wingers as “UNTRUE”. Namely the Govt’s involvement in the whole thing. Hard to prosecute fraud when the Govt participated.

    Also note the mention of something I have discussed here before. The tendency of the Govt to go after Corporations because it is “EASY MONEY”. As long as they don’t get to high in their demands they know they will get a “PAY OFF”. Nothing but legalized extortion.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-17/why-no-bankers-go-to-jail.html

  9. Just A Citizen says:

      • Just A Citizen says:

        Absolutely EXCELLENT posting there Buck.

        Surprised a little that Slate recognizes the apparent conflict in Lincoln’s thinking and arguments.

        However, I do not believe the date used or the means, of our founding changes the perspective of those who were involved.

        The STATES were the primary sovereign entity in 1776 and again in 1787 and still again in the early 1800’s.

        The few who dreamt of a SINGLE National Power had to hide their intentions, Hamilton, but they still were among a “minority” among those who actually created this “United STATES”

        • Not sure why you’re surprised — Slate is a great resource and often links to some very interesting articles.

          • I’ve always felt that while the South may have felt “put upon” by the central union prior to the war, that while they may have felt that eventually the North would doom their “peculiar institution, they nonetheless created the monster that they most feared by seceding. Rather than stay and fight, they chose to pick up the football and go home. The rest is, as they say, history.

            Who knows what Lincoln would have done from ’65 to’68? Would he have rolled back the government? Certainly this is an unanswerable question. It’s up there with what would have FDR’s policies been, foreign and domestic had he lived to serve out that last term. Booth did not help things anymore than Oswald did.

        • Anyone beside me think the Pres. made a huge mistake by not visiting Pennsylvania? Not thinking too clearly these days. Might be heading off into the sunset with the Mayor of Toronto soon.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            I don’t think anyone would believe his LYIN bastard ass anyway 🙂

          • Just A Citizen says:

            SK

            I disagree. Will make for a little fun for those who don’t like him and the others don’t care.

            His legacy is more at risk from those within the halls that are now starting to “talk” about how much they knew and when. Only a matter of time before some career staffer spills the beans on the deliberate cover up, in hopes of maintaining a job in some future Dem Administration.

            Obama better hope he has purged all the Hillary people by now.

  10. Shoulda, woulda, coulda…. She’s calling for a probe? How ’bout you read the damn bill, lady?

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/11/how-long-before-kay-hagan-claims-she-was-brainwashed-into-supporting-obamacare/

  11. Just A Citizen says:

    Anita

    Can’t remember if I suggested this one or not. You should check it out as the property values have come down some. It was way to “inflated” prior to the crash. But the city is now large enough to support many businesses. And the mountains and diversity of nature are outstanding. Warning: They get REAL winters there. As in COLD and Snow. Shorter growing season than some of the other places due to elevation.

    http://www.activelynorthwest.com/fitness/active-adventure-bend/

  12. Unbelievable … $9000 bail … what a country!
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/19/justice/florida-george-zimmerman-arrest/

    • gmanfortruth says:

      What exactly is so unbelievable?

      • Well, let’s see .. considering he murdered one 17 year old kid with a handgun, and this time he was arrested (and he was arrested) for brandishing a shotgun in his girlfriend’s face, but had along for the ride, an AR-15 and 2 handguns … Oh, I don’t know, maybe $500,000.00 bail would’ve made more sense? You know, kind of what they did to OJ (then again, he was black) for the fugazy charge they wound up nailing him for because they too couldn’t get him for murder (a double murder in his case) … 🙂

        • gmanfortruth says:

          He didn’t murder anybody, as a jury of his peer’s has proven. You just don’t like the guy because he destroyed all the Race pimping and altered 9-11 tapes that YOU fell for hook, line and sinker. Are you just a racist against Hispanics? Got a problem with OJ, who is black? You keep saying “What a country”, I agree 🙂 The judicial system can still work in this country, despite Liberal prosecutors and investigators. Take away NBC and their BS 9-11 tape, there would have never been a Zimmerman trial and he would be a nobody today. Tou’re still wiping away the tears because Zimmerman’s jury made a fool of you, ain’t you ? 🙂 That’s OK Charlie, the next Hispanic they can nail for a real murder, I’ll post it for you to enjoy the moment. 🙄

  13. I am just speechless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Obamacare Official Admits Something So Incredible You’ll Wonder Why You’re Just Now Hearing About It
    Nov. 19, 2013 2:03pm Becket Adams

    A large portion of the error-riddled, multimillion dollar federal health insurance exchange system has not even been built yet, according to a senior official involved in the construction of the website.
    Obamacare Official Admits Something in Hearing So Incredible You’ll Wonder Why You’re Just Now Hearing About It

    Deputy chief information officer of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Henry Chao (Getty Images)

    The revelation came Tuesday during a House Energy and Commerce Committee hearing on the possible security risks surrounding healthcare.gov.

    “The committee’s been reviewing materials that indicate that some parts of healthcare.gov were not completed before the launch, as we’ve discussed here,” Rep. Cory Gardner (R-Colo.) said. “What portion of the website remained to be created when you launched on October 1st?”

    “I don’t have an exact percentage,” said Henry Chao, deputy chief information officer of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. “I look at it in terms of overall marketplace systems.”

    “I think it was a set of priority functions that needed to be in place,” Chao added.

    “Well, how much do we have to build today?” Gardner pressed.

    “Just an approximation, we’re probably sitting somewhere between 60 and 70 percent,” Chao said.

    “Sixty to 70 percent that needs to be built still?” Gardner said.

    “We still have to build the payment systems to make payments to issuers in January,” the Obamacare official said before adding, “the online application, verification, determination, plan compare, getting enrolled, generating enrollment transaction – that’s 100 percent there.”

    “But the entire system is 60 to 70 percent away from being complete,” Gardner said.

    “There’s the back office systems, the accounting systems, the payment systems … they still need to be done,” Chao said.

    Chao, not disputing the figure, said the 60 to 70 percent that has yet to be built would be tested “in the exact same manner we tested everything else.”

    But here’s something: Later in the hearing, Chao referred to the remaining 30 to 40 percent of the system that has yet to be built.

    Perhaps he flipped the percentages in his head? This would seem strange considering Gardner repeatedly pressed him on the 70 percent figure.

    “(R)egardless of the exact number, Chao’s response is utterly devastating,” Townhall’s Guy Benson wrote. “Somewhere between 30 and 70 percent of Obamacare’s online system has not yet been constructed or tested. They’ve had over three years.”

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/19/obamacare-official-admits-something-so-incredible-youll-wonder-why-youre-just-now-hearing-about-it/

  14. gmanfortruth says:
  15. Those of you on Tricare insurance…..be prepared. You were promised lifetime medical when you signed up…..if you are retired, you are about to be assessed a yearly fee and a premium based upon your retirement pay…..oh, and your retirement pay will now include any other non military related income. So if you were a sergeant that retired on 60% annual pay and promised life time paid health benefits…..you lost that in the mid nineties under Clinton…now, Tricare is going to charge you a fee and premium based on your retirement pay but the term retirement pay is being expanded to civilian supplemental pay.

    This is in the Federal Register….if the Pentagon disapproves of the measure, it will be executed by executive order.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      Colonel, Welcome back from your trip. Seems that Mexico has a whole lot of that Socialism Charlie likes so much, you should tell us more 🙂

      Obama likes to make enemies, so let him go at it. One question, since Executive orders are unconstitutional, can he dictate the Tricare changes that way? Not that he cares if it’s legal or not, he’s broken more laws than Bonnie and Clyde combined 🙄

  16. Just A Citizen says:

    How timely. As I said before…………….WE ARE NOT EUROPE. If you want European socialism then MOVE TO EUROPE.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/11/is_america_no_longer_a_democracy.html

  17. So….where is the outrage on this game called “Polar Bear” hunting or the “Knock Out” game where young BLACK kids are sucker punching WHITE victims. Some to the point of death…in New York, New Jersy, Chicago and it gets posted on the internet. Interesting how this is being overlooked and not condemned by anyone. It also appears that most of the victims are elderly and women. The videos that are being posted by the perps…….show black on white. Where is the outrage. Al Sharpton says it is understandable because the black youth are isolated and are angry…..understandable? Bull shit.

    So, here is D13’s take. Anytime you see a group of young black kids approaching you or on an intercept pathway….assume that it is a threat. Do not wait for something to happen. Be prepared. Profile this situation. Face the situation and watch them closely. As an armed man, I will not hesitate to shoot and it will not just be the perp….it will be whoever is in the line of sight. The rest are just as guilty and the entire group and the entire group will be the threat. If that makes me a racist….then I plead guilty.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      I brought up a video on this during your absence. Not a peep from those on the left. I agree with your conclusion.

      • Oh……I did not know that….sorry to be redundant….I have never seen this before. I have not heard of this happening in Texas…but I am sure it has….it has spread to many states, I am told. No problem….I will profile it and react accordingly. I would be surprised to see it in Texas since damn near everyone is armed.

    • It also appears that most of the victims are elderly and women.

      Of course. Because these kids are cowards and punching a grown man is a dangerous proposition. Much safer to punch women / the elderly.

      Anytime you see a group of young black kids approaching you or on an intercept pathway….assume that it is a threat.

      Anytime you see ANY group of young black kids people approaching you on an intercept pathway…. assume that it is a threat.

      this game called “Polar Bear” hunting or the “Knock Out” game where young BLACK kids are sucker punching WHITE victims.

      The problem isn’t that they’re black and the victims are white. The problem is that they’re young and stupid.

      Maybe they’re targeting whites. I haven’t heart the term “polar bear hunt” before or elsewhere, but I would be not in the least surprised.

      Racism is alive and well in the black (especially poor and uneducated) black community. Just as it is in the white community. So it comes out as acts of random violence in one group but not the other. That doesn’t mean that BOTH groups aren’t racist to alarming degrees.

      Where is the outrage.

      Right here. I find this all outrageous.

      Random acts of violence against innocent victims (regardless of any other motivations) is, simply, evil.

      As 99% of the left. If you’re not seeing the outrage from the left over this stuff, then you’re not looking hard enough. The only difference in the left and right’s takes is that the left wants to try to remedy it by typical left-leaning measures (reduce poverty through welfare, increase education) while the right wants to remedy it by typical right-leaning measures (increase police, racial profiling, harsher sentences, arming everyone, etc).

      • Mathius responds: Anytime you see ANY group of people approaching you on an intercept pathway…. assume that it is a threat.
        D13 reasons: Ok….sorta. I am always on guard and, with Mrs Colonel, escort across a street if on a collision course with suspicious looking characters. If I am by my self, it is different. BUT…..until I see security cameras showing other than black kids and until I see U tube postings of others doing the same……I will profile the black kids. Now……what is wrong with this, from your progressive prospective?

        Mathius syas: “The problem isn’t that they’re black and the victims are white. The problem is that they’re young and stupid.
        D13 respectively ask Mathius to remove 60’s style rose colored glasses: (1) Yes, they are young and stupid…..(2) Yes, they are black and picking on white victims. Both problems…YOU CANT FIX STUPID…..but you can fix the other.

        Mathius: “Maybe they’re targeting whites. I haven’t heart the term “polar bear hunt” before or elsewhere, but I would be not in the least surprised.”
        D13: Neither had I until yesterday. It was on the news.

        Mathius observes: “Racism is alive and well in the black (especially poor and uneducated) black community. Just as it is in the white community. So it comes out as acts of random violence in one group but not the other. That doesn’t mean that BOTH groups aren’t racist to alarming degrees”
        D13 notes: Interesting…..it seems you wish to give an excuse, using the term especiall poor and uneducated….and not using the same term when referring to the white community….meaning that all whites are rich and educated ( I could be wrong on this one….but it appears to me this way)

        Mathius: “As 99% of the left. If you’re not seeing the outrage from the left over this stuff, then you’re not looking hard enough. The only difference in the left and right’s takes is that the left wants to try to remedy it by typical left-leaning measures (reduce poverty through welfare, increase education) while the right wants to remedy it by typical right-leaning measures (increase police, racial profiling, harsher sentences, arming everyone, etc).”
        D13: Ok…I will go look on the left wing sites and see…and I will look on MSNBC and CNN and see….I usually look at them all….but I did not see the outrage….I saw Al Sharpton blaming it on the white man that the black kids are mad and therefore justified…this was on CNN.

        But, still….when D13 sees a group of young black kids that are loud and taking up room on the sidewalks or in malls….his hand will go to the weapon that stays on his hip….but admittedly, D13 will do this if there is a group of any one group.showing the same attitude.

        • Mathius™ says:

          D13 notes: Interesting…..it seems you wish to give an excuse, using the term especiall poor and uneducated….and not using the same term when referring to the white community….meaning that all whites are rich and educated ( I could be wrong on this one….but it appears to me this way)

          Nope. Just an omission. Meant to say poor and uneducated white community as well.

        • Mathius™ says:

          I will go look on the left wing sites and see…and I will look on MSNBC and CNN

          MSNBC and CNN are not “left wing sites.” The are centrists who are so afraid of being accused of having a “liberal bias” that they flail around chaotically to the point where their reporting is essentially meaningless.

          HuffPo is a liberal site.

          Two seconds on Google produces a huffpo two articles on the “latest victims” and suggests that the crime might be a hate crime. Not one word in either article condoning or excusing the attacks or citing Sharpton.

  18. Mathius™ says:

    (carrying this forward from the previous article)

    V.H. asked: Do you think Todd is justified in his condemnation of our posts ? Are we too hard on progressives or irritate you to the point that you do not want to post? I’m not meaning to put you on the spot-so don’t answer if you don’t want too. 🙂

    Short answer (of course): Yes and no.

    I don’t know what Todd’s condemnation of your posts is, specifically. I don’t read everything written here (much as I’d like to), so I don’t really know what you’re referring to. That said, I can address your later points.

    On SUFA, there are exactly four liberals: Todd, Buck, Charlie, and myself. That’s it. Four. And Charlie’s clinically insane, so I hesitate to even count the cannoli fiend. So 3.5 liberals. Against, what? 20? 30, if you count a certain long-winded pirate.

    This may surprise you, but SUFA’s right is far to the extreme of the “real world.” You guys, in our view appear to be wingnuts as, I’m sure, we appear to you to also be wingnuts. From the left’s perspective, the ideological staunchness here is a borderline psychosis. And you outnumber us several-to-one.

    Every word we write is scrutinized, picked apart, subject to misinterpretation, strawman arguments, and more.

    I (generally) work pretty hard to try to remain fair and balanced™, and believe that I am fairly successful in this endeavor. As a result, I rarely feel personally “attacked” or anything (though it does happen). But there is some definite hostility if not toward myself, then toward anything and everything I write. It is not just that I need to make my point, but that I need to preemptively defend myself from all possible misinterpretations, repeat and clarify and repeat and clarify my points several times or else what I am saying is automatically misinterpreted, attacked with strawman arguments, and thrown out.

    If you really want to understand, go back and read my exchange with JAC the other day (Votert ID, Why) to see why we get so fed up sometimes. I presented a clear and solid case. I kept it as narrow and specific as I possibly could. But the rock-solid conclusion is inescapable – there is at least SOME motivation behind the voter ID laws driven by a desire to disenfranchise Democrats and sway elections. I explicitly stipulated that it need not be the majority or primary reason, just that it is A reason. And yet, the reception from JAC was essentially “la la la la la I can’t hear you!” To be completely forthcoming with you, given your question, V, I considered leaving SUFA again after that. It was so frustrating, I nearly quit the blog entirely. What’s the point?

    But what should be really telling is that, when I responded that I give up and will no longer engage with JAC, Todd’s response was “you’re just seeing this now?” Buck commented to me offline along the lines of “why did you even bother that long?” And Charlie has offered the exact same sentiment repeatedly elsewhere. If there isn’t a problem about you guys not listening, then why do all four of us feel the exact same way?

    Are you too hard on progressives? Maybe in the sense that you’re hard on the progressive movement and progressive politics in general. Remember that these people are the same kinds of people with the same mix of good and malign intentions as are present in the Tea Party. I feel that the lunatics within the progressive movement are treated here as if they are typical (this would be as if we on the acted as if Black Flag was representative of the typical tea party member – of course he’s not).

    But, no, you are not too hard or irate (GENERALLY) with the liberals here on SUFA. Not with us. The fact that you don’t make it personal, and generally keep it polite/respectful is the reason I’ve been here this long (over four years!).

    But you are (again, the royal you, not you specifically) are too hard on the things we say. I do not feel that everyone (although some of you do) takes the time to try to get past their us-verse-them filters and actually understand the things that we’re saying here. I find I have to say things a dozen times in a dozen different ways to make a dent on your preconceived notions of what it is that Liberals™ think.

    I come here for well reasoned argument and to get a deeper insight into the mind of the far-right. I can only attain that by seriously and critically examining the things y’all say, but we do not feel it is being reciprocated. Rather, while we aren’t (generally) being personally attacked, we feel like when we come here, we just are ganged up on and have our viewed defined for us and then berated. And therein lies some room for improvement.

    • But….you drink Red Bull and Buck is a lawyer…….form the north east…and and and….ummm……….you locked up the pirate……..

      • Oh, I might mention….there is no way that a hedge fund manager and an estate planner is far left. No way,. It is contradictory. However, on social issues, I will admit that I feel you are as far left as I am right…….but since I have no religious convictions, I cannot be in that camp….but…………………………I do enjoy the sparring with you and Buck as it is reasonable and both will at least acknowledge and stand by your convictions…….and of course, Charlie, Captain Cannoli…….there is nothing to say except……wow. He has been snorting Plutonian Dust mites far too long.

        However, you do seem to cross the line with the Pirate, whom you have locked up in a place that my raptor force cannot even get into….and because the Pirate has been kidnapped from the wenches and grog in Laguna Madre, there is a power vacuum that must be filled. What am I to do with his new brass wound cannons that I got him?

      • All true.

        I was going to waterboard the pirate, too. But then I though.. let’s see what happens if I use Red Bull instead of water. I’ll keep you posted on the results (maybe I’ll upload it to youtube).

        Meanwhile, any opinions on the rest of my tirade post?

        • Yes sir….I do…..have to do a little work but will be back in an hour. Good post though.Largely agree…

        • Yes.

          Try being a conservative in the USA today. We haven’t caught a break since Reagan. That’s 30 years. 30+. years. We’ve seen a progressive march left for all of those years. You guys advocate for all things progressive. Morally, economically, etc. Yet you cannot even clarify a position of when enough is enough. Isn’t 17T enough? A healthcare takeover clusterfuck? Isn’t an ever snooping NSA enough? How about a big push against anything God? How about billions wasted on alternative energy? My list can go on forever. Progressives have had the upper hand for years..and you guys still advocate for more. Your voices are loud and proud. We now have a progressive, if not communist president, a clown posse for a congress, a court system bent on interpreting toward more “progress” It’s frustrating. When a kid can’t even make a gun with his fingers..it’s overboard. You guys have to acknowlege stuff like that..yet you still advocate for more. But we’re the bad guys?

          • It’s interesting, because from our perspective, it went like this:

            Reagan: St. Reagan
            Bush I: Conservative (moderate)
            Clinton: Liberal (moderate). “The era of big government is over!” Signed DODT, DOMA. Lowered cap gains, etc.
            Bush II: Conservative, neo-con, bible-thumper, PATRIOT act, Gitmo, war on T’rrism, unprovoked war in Iraq, unnecessary war in Afghanistan, lower taxes, deficit spending
            Obama: Liberal (moderate). Handed a wrecked economy and two open ended wars. Trying to reverse the trend from the last 30+ years.

            As is so often the case, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

            • Good point — Clinton and Obama can’t exactly be labeled far-left progressives….

              • I think her point is that from the perspective of the far-right / libertarian camp, they are.

                Bush I – I don’t remember Bush I too well, just that he raised taxes and threw up on the PM of Japan.
                Clinton – raised some taxes, still a liberal. Increased regulation.
                Bush II – big government, trampled civil liberties, etc. Deficit spending.
                Obama – duh

                In their eyes, these are all, if not “liberal” then at least “left.” But certainly not “true conservative.”

                I think. Anita, correct me if I’m wrong.

              • Oh I completely agree with you on that.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                They are all on the same side. They need us to be divided to maintain the ruling class they are part of.

              • Then what, in the name of God is a “Far Left Progressive”?

            • I wasn’t even thinking of them individually. Reagan was the last one I can remember who advocated for the individual not the collective. Then Bush 1 came in with the NWO speak and I never heard again about the individual. But that wasn’t the point of my post. Progressives have banged the loudest drum,..,you guys keep pushing for the same policies, meanwhile all our large D cities and our Fed govt are a mess, but we’re the bad guys? I think you’re taking SUFA way too personal. With every post I assume I’m speaking to the whole country of liberals, not just to you or Buck or whoever, hoping that there are lots of people out there..maybe some of whom I can sway in my direction.

          • Today’s lunatic tea party would piss on St. Reagan … just so you know.

            • Mathius™ says:

              And Charlie, crazy as a loon, wins the Comment of the Day award for this comment. 100% accurate, and funny as all hell.

              10 Mathius Points to you, sir!

              Spend them wisely.

              • I accept the award … and the “just so you know” should be lifted from Donnie Brasco (the movie) … when Left thinks Donnie did an end around with Sonny Black … “Just so you know.”

                I would’ve said it, “Just so yous know.”

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Mathius

      I think you have grossly misrepresented my response to you regarding the voter ID issue and the local political hack.

      It seems to me you did not want to consider my points and decided instead to pull the “your not listening to me” card.

      I also find it very funny that you guys who proclaim yourselves on the left have grouped EVERYONE ELSE on SUFA as being in the same “right wing” category.

      • I think you have grossly misrepresented my response to you regarding the voter ID issue and the local political hack.

        Well then. What WERE you saying? Make it good.

        • Just A Citizen says:

          As I recall, the comment that got you upset was that you can not KNOW someone’s INTENT for something based on YOUR perception of the outcome. Or in this case, HIS comment about he Lazy students.

          Point: We do not KNOW that they established the new ID rules to purposefully discourage those lazy voters. And we do not KNOW if they had good intentions but viewed the claims of disenfranchisement as an “added and unplanned bonus”.

          I also pointed out that either was possible and that people of BOTH parties do all kinds of things to manipulate and affect elections. Including the practice of rounding up people and giving them lunch to vote………..Democrat by the way.

          You were trying to claim that this guys comments were PROOF that voter ID is purposefully designed to disenfranchise. Having been involved in many elections and the political process I DO NOT BELEIVE this is the motivation for Voter ID. Not at the broader level.

          The guys comments would not even fit the areas where I have lived. The students are by no means LAZY and the minorities certainly were not either. Voter ID has been used for a very long time and NOBODY is disenfranchised.

          I do recognize there is a significant difference between your side and mine on the voter access issue in general. I do not believe it should be EASY. I believe that exercising your Vote should take some effort. Sorry, but that was the lesson of Old School Civics. Citizenship requires WORK and EFFORT.

          I also believe that part of that EFFORT is PROVING you are who you claim to be and that you RESIDE in the place you claim to reside. That you vote in the State where you are a Resident and not in the State where you happen to be working or attending school temporarily.

      • I also find it very funny that you guys who proclaim yourselves on the left have grouped EVERYONE ELSE on SUFA as being in the same “right wing” category.

        You’re all “right wing.” Every single one of you.

        Just different types of right wing and to varying extents. You’re a BF style VLDG type. D13 is a social conservative / mild neo-con. V.H. is a social conservative who I can’t recall weighing in very much on fiscal policy. G-man is more reasonable despite his conspiracy theory inclinations. And so on.

        But you’re all right. And all far. Just not the “same right.”

        Just like all four of the liberals here are all left. Just not the “same left.”

        • Just A Citizen says:

          Sorry, but most folks here are “left wing”.

          There have been a few defectors to the “right wing” but when push comes to shove them creep back to the left.

    • My two cents worth-I’m not at all sure how to fix the problem you highlight -feeling that your opinions are not being heard-first up I don’t think people mean to gang up on you guys-it’s just that you give the opposing opinion on a lot of issues and that’s the kind of discussion that is the most fun and interesting. It gets a little boring when the person your talking too almost always agrees with you, so everybody wants to get in on the discussions. I can’t talk for everyone else but I don’t purposely misunderstand you-I am trying real hard to listen and think about what you say-if I get it wrong-it isn’t intentional.

      Now on these accusations of strawman arguments 🙂 You have thrown that at me a few times and all I remember thinking at the time was oh hell no, it was not a strawman argument 🙂 So I think a lot of the misunderstandings are just that -misunderstanding.

      Now I understand the frustration, I’ve felt it myself- when you feel I have proven my point and you are just being an ass by continuing to deny the facts. It’s harder on you guys because there are less of you. But sometimes Matt-your small little point-like with the
      ID discussion-is the whole question-Does having to have an ID disenfranchise people from voting. So okay, maybe there are republicans out there who, I’m sorry before I say it- if it offends you, are stupid enough to believe it does and that’s why they endorse it. But I personally don’t believe in has the power to disenfranchise people-I think people who want voter ID -want our elections to be fair and legal and believe that Voter ID is a logical and fair way to try and cause that to happen. Your small point is more than just a small point.

      But I enjoy having you guys at the site and I wish I knew how to make things better-Hopefully everybody will have read your heartfelt complaints and try to lighten up a little. And you guys will realize that for the most part people are taking you and your arguments very seriously, even if at times it seems like they aren’t.

      • And one other point- A lot of us post articles, out of those postings 3/4 are ignored, a few get a one line response from someone and occasionally a posting will create a nice conversation. You guys show up and say anything and 10 people can’t wait to talk to you. So I don’t know -maybe it’s all of us who aren’t being heard 🙂 He he-you guys are like the superstars of SUFA 🙂

  19. gmanfortruth says:

    For those on the Left who believe that certain groups are racist, let’s show some proof 😉

    The Tea Party- Can anyone post a video or an article of a “clearly” racist comment made during a speech or during an interview?

    • Well, therein lies the rub, doesn’t it?

      One needs only google image search racist tea party to see signs at rallies ranging from ones calling Obama a lying African to “what you talking about Willis” to calling him a monkey to “go back to Kenya” to pictures of his photoshopped to look like a witch doctor.

      Any one of these could easily be written off as, perhaps, a joke in poor taste. But collectively? In toto? Nonsense. There is absolutely, irrefutably, SOME racism within the Tea Party.

      How much? How vocal? How influential? Well that’s really anyone’s guess.

      But the good news (or bad news depending on how you want to look at it) is that the Tea Party isn’t special in this regard. Tons of black people voted for Obama just because he’s black. (Plenty had other reasons, but plenty didn’t – I don’t think I have to convince you of this fact). And voting for someone because of the color of their skin is pretty much the definition of racism.

      So liberals do it too.

      Lest we forget, it’s not an accident that his middle name was so often repeated on Fox, while people accuse him of being a Muslim who “pals around with terrorists.” The racism is dripping from the walls here.

      Then there’s the infamous “vote right, vote white” lawn signs during the 2008 election. And a poll amongst (Tennessee? North Carolina?) Republicans that showed 20-something percent would never vote for a black man. The telling thing here isn’t that 20% thought this way, but that 20% didn’t even bother to lie about it. (I can’t find the poll online – so take this with a grain of salt as it’s coming from memory). But I don’t think you can get much more overt than this.

      Is the Tea Party racist? No. But it absolutely has its share of racists in it.

      Just like every other group.

      So you ask “For those on the Left who believe that certain groups are racist, let’s show some proof” and I say there’s plenty of proof if you’re just willing to take a look around. A certain subset of every population is racist. Left, right, Plutonian, or otherwise. Tea Party is no exception.

      • “if you’re just willing to take a look around” … forgetaboutit … in here? They look through blinders … they LIVE through blinders … but here’s something from which they can learn (they’ll deny everything he says before finishing the interview, but at least it’ll keep them occupied for a few minutes): http://www.workinglife.org/…/NOV-INT_Bernie-Sanders-1.pdf

      • gmanfortruth says:

        Thanks Mathius. I agree with you that there is racism everywhere. The pictures, often misinterpreted (Confederate Flag), or intended as a joke in poor taste, are far too often used to demonize entire groups. That is why I was specific in my question, asking for an example using the spoken word (speech excerpt, interview). The Lyin African thing is technically true, his father is African and he is a compulsive liar , so what’s the problem with that? 😉

        I think that all the racism stuff has gotten out of control and no longer holds any merit. I can give many examples why Democrat Liberals are the worst of all racist’s, but what point would that serve? Now, back to the question.

        • The pictures, often misinterpreted (Confederate Flag), or intended as a joke in poor taste, are far too often used to demonize entire groups

          Agreed.

          But will you also stipulate that sometimes the flag / jokes are, actually, legitimately racist? Even if not indicative of the group as a whole, some people in the groups holding those flags/signs do intend them in a racist way.

          That is, sometimes a cigar is actually just a cigar?

          • gmanfortruth says:

            I can agree Mathius, racism is not limited to one political party or group (KKK and other Nazi type groups not included). What gets old is those on the Left seem to think they own the high road on the matter. Oprah’s ignorant comments come to mind. I wonder how things would change if a black conservative became the next President. Would the Liberal left now be the racist’s because they don’t agree with his/her politics?

            • What gets old is those on the Left seem to think they own the high road on the matter. Oprah’s ignorant comments come to mind.

              I think Oprah is wrong in crying racism, only insofar as she’s NOT crying racism at the left as well. She’s not “wrong,” but she’s only telling half the story.

              I think the right is wrong in crying racism, only insofar as they’re NOT crying racism at the right as well. They’re not “wrong,” but they’re only telling half the story as well.

              Nobody wants to alienate their support / base by calling them racist (even if they are). Oprah isn’t going to attack racist blacks. Tea Party bigwigs aren’t going to attack racist members of the tea party. They’re both going to stick to calling out an over-simplified version of the “other side.” They’re both right. And they’re both wrong. And they’re both only telling half the story – the story their audience wants to hear.

        • And then there’s institutional racism … but how can you wingies possibly understand that (you’re mostly responsible for it) 🙂

          • gmanfortruth says:

            Prove it!

            • Like talking to a brick … trying to prove something to a brick … we’ll just assume we’re right and you’re wrong 🙂 And we’re usually right … 🙂

              • It’s like I said last week … whatever we hand you in the form of proof, you go to the wingie defense mechanism … denial … denial … denial … you keep telling the lie, you not only believe it, it become the truth (that how it goes, Stephen)?

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Just what I thought, you can’t prove shit. You never prove anything your asked to prove Charlie, ever. Why do you waste you time repeating the same boring lies?

              • gmanfortruth says:

                but how can you wingies possibly understand that (you’re mostly responsible for it) 🙂

                This is the part I want you to prove Charlie.

            • Gman,

              This, right here, from Charlie is what I’m talking about in my comment to VH. Right or wrong. We on the left have a strong feeling that we’re not being listened to here.

              Todd: why bother?
              Buck: why bother?
              Charlie: why bother?
              Mathius: why bother?

              So what is driving this mindset in your opinion? Why do you think we all feel this way?

              • G, you’re the one who can’t prove shit. All you EVER do is use bumper sticker language that comes as close to racist as is possible. That’s your hangup, my friend, not mine. What have you ever proven, besides the fact you spew nothing more than silliness in your rants. Go take a look at the interview I posted here with Bernie Sanders, spend 10 minutes reading something other than your own nonsense. We might have a decent discussion after that. Sanders provides plenty of stats … dispute them, deny them, but it’s a good launching point for genuine discussion … or you can say “He can’t prove shit” too … and go your merry way. I’m being serious here, G. Not stirring.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Mathius, I do that to Charlie, because he constantly repeats himself. No other reason really, other than what he says are just liberal talking points. When we talked, we agreed on many things on the subject. THat’s what I like about talking with you, Buck and sometimes Todd. When Charlie is losing, which is quite often, he resorts to the name calling game. His history is well documented. But, I digress, maybe I will leave Charlie alone today, 🙄

              • G-man, that doesn’t really answer the question.

                Let’s leave Chaz out of it for the moment.

                Why do you think that Buck, Todd, and I all feel this way.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Fair enough Mathius. One, your outnumbered and the majority here don’t believe in your political views. Political views. in most cases, not all, can be very subjective. That’s part of arguing politics I guess. It doesn’t help that we are not sitting down at a table and talking, where facial expressions and body language can be seen. This is one big part of the discussion that is in the way I think. Or, proving Liberals wrong is the goal of many and nothing else will due 🙂

  20. Interesting report on the news this morning about Colorado and their legalization of marijuana last November. It was a news interview of the law enforcement in Denver, Aurora, Colorado Springs. and Trinidad.

    1. Traffic deaths as a result of marijuana use increased 119%.
    2. Aggravated assault related to marijuana increased over 12%
    3. Home invasion as a result of marijuana increased over 20% ****
    4. High school drop out rate increased. ( No percentage given )
    5. Aggravated sexual assault as a result of marijuana increased significantly ****
    6. Average grade point in high school and middle school has decreased ****
    7. Child health related issues have increased****
    8. Marijuana related criminal activity has increased ****

    ***Marijuana related home invasion described as break in not stealing cash or valuables but only marijuana plants (each person is allowed six plants in a household) and marijuana stash.

    ***Aggravated sexual assault has increased primarily on college campuses and the victims and the perpetrators are testing positive for marijuana.

    ***Grade point average monitored by the fact that it has been determined that the children of parents who are smoking or using marijuana seem to allow the introduction into cookies and brownies and other treats brought to school in school lunches. ( How they determined this, I do not know and it was either not said or I missed it )

    ***Child health issues have been increased especially in the poison control centers where young children see their parents take leaves and smoke them and/or processed marijuana and then ingest it…it points to irresponsible parenting, of course.

    ***Marijana related criminal activity is defined as petty theft and medical facilities being broken into.

    All of this in one year.

  21. @G … do you ever wonder why USW left you in charge of this site? I sure do … you’re a walking bumper sticker, my friend. Proud to be a redneck … hell, yeah, we figured that out a long time ago. I repeat myself? Man are you clueless … sad, really.

    • Also @G … ” other than what he says are just liberal talking points” … this is what I mean, G … I am far left of Todd, Matt and Buck … far left of them … I don’t believe in capitalism. I think it’s what got us where we are today. Liberal talking points? Really? What others consider liberals (the Dem party), I consider Republican Light. Maybe you need to do some reading?

      • Just A Citizen says:

        Charlie

        You are CORRECT. You certainly are NO LIBERAL.

        You are in fact a LEFTIST extraordinaire. But not the far, far left. That position is held by the Monarchists and Absolute Dictators. Although the only difference between them and Communism is the number of people claiming to be in charge.

        • Nope, the dictators and Fascists are your guys, JAC … you know, like Somoza, the Shah of Iran, Battista, Hussein, Sihanouk, et al … those were your guys best friends … 🙂

      • gmanfortruth says:

        The other guys are nothing like you Charlie, that’s for sure. But you also know that I don’t fall for the false Left/Right paradigm that everyone loves to be in. Like I said above, as long as we are divided over stupid shit, the ruling class are happy campers. You can bang on Capitalism all you want, we don’t have that here, but you can’t quite understand that.

        • I more than understand you’ve fallen for the libertarian bullshit about capitalism … what you don’t seem to understand (not that I think you can–no insult–just your political mindset) is that capitalism CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT GOVERNMENT. Or, pray tell, why hasn’t it?

          • gmanfortruth says:

            I don’t know what the Libertarian BS is on Capitalism is. I do know that we are not a Capitalist economy. We are cross between Facism and Merchantilism. What does “capitalism can’t survive without government” have to do with us? And why hasn’t what?

            • Listen to me, G: I understand that BF taught you a new concept with mercantilism … but how do you (or him) think that came about? Capitalism requires greed … not individual greed, but greed in the sense of expansion … and it can only do that under two conditions: 1) absolute monopoly of assets (where it’s headed full speed ahead now–what Sanders call hypercapitalism) or 2) government … we used #2 to get to #1 … #2 legislates and enforces everything #1 craves.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Greed comes in many forms my old friend. Kenysians have really screwed things up, in terms of having a free market economy. There are many different forms of Capitalism (we have the so called Mixed Economy). Our govt is way too far involved in the peoples business. That’s what I see as the biggest problem that has us in the position we are in right now. Sanders thinks that Unions are great. I agree and disagree. They (Unions) got greedy and priced themselves out of business.

                I think we can agree that we should all be able to EARN a decent wage. Sadly, the skills of many are not marketable in the higher wage brackets. Do you think the guy that sweeps the floor should be paid as much as the electric technician that keeps the business running (just an example)? I think you believe that the floor sweeper should be paid more, because he should live a better life. Where things get screwed up in your ideals is that when you pay the floor sweepers more, the electricians will want more and on and on. Ultimately the prices rise to meet the cost of labor. Then, we’re right back to the floor sweeper needing more money to live a good life and the cycle repeats.

                Unions, the bad part, looking at the auto industry, priced their jobs to plants overseas, where labor was cheaper. Let’s face it, should a guy that puts in 15 screws over and over for 8 hours (something that don’t require high dollar skills) be paid big money? The unions then demanded that the auto industry do business with other Union companies. These companies also pay high wages for low wage work (in some cases, not all). This causes the price to go up on those parts bought by the auto builders, who are paying high wages for low wage work, which also cause the price of the product to go up. End result, cars cost tens of thousands (10 times what they are really WORTH). The cost of greed? Did this cause the plants to move overseas?

                Just something to think about old man 🙂

          • Just A Citizen says:

            Because LEFTISTS won’t let it.

            It is far to lucrative for them to maintain the socialist and fascist connections.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      do you ever wonder why USW left you in charge of this site? He didn’t Charlie, maybe you need to do some reading 😉

  22. Just A Citizen says:

    I wonder why I am being ignored as one of the “Liberals” here on SUFA?

    Why have the Progressives declared that I am NOT a Liberal when I have clearly stated that I am??

    • Because you’re using a different definition of the accepted term “liberal” as used in American politics.

      You are comparing apples to oranges. If you are a “liberal,” then you are using your terminology. And in your terminology, I would never be considered a “liberal.” So use whatever term you like, but you’re apart from the group of the four of us and I’ll thank you to stop playing semantics.

      • Ah, Semantics … what JAC accuses Chomsky of doing when he PROVES Adam Smith has been taken completely out of context .. 🙂

        • Just A Citizen says:

          We have never discussed whether Chomsky “proved” that Adam Smith was taken out of context.

          But since you raised the question, he did not prove anything that was not already known. It is simply ignored by many who discuss his works. Largely because his other views were in contradiction to his economic theories themselves.

          The issue that was discussed here was Chomsky trying to use Smith to rationalize his own “interpretations” or “opinions”.

          I have never challenged the accuracy of Chomsky’s “facts” when presented. I challenge his interpretation or application of those facts. He is good at using them to justify positions which the facts themselves do not justify.

          Such as his argument that Capitalism REQUIRES Govt protection. There is no “factual” information that justifies this statement.

      • Just A Citizen says:

        Mathius

        I am not playing “semantics”.

        I have defined my terms here from the beginning. Terms, I might add, which are historically correct.

        It is true you are not a Liberal in that sense. But you are far closer than those you claim to be in your club here. Far closer. If only you would drop the idea of “Govt healthcare”.

  23. gmanfortruth says:

    Mathius said ” G-man is more reasonable despite his conspiracy theory inclinations.”

    I’ll take that as a compliment 🙂 Speaking of conspiracy theories (which I think are quite entertaining), with President Smokey Pants ratings being in the gutter, it is PRIME time for a nasty false flag event. The ruling class will not let their puppet go out with poor ratings. That, ladies and gentlemen, is your CT for the day 🙂

    • President Smokey Pants ratings being in the gutter

      Care to support this with a poll?

      • Just A Citizen says:

        I saw something this morning claiming a CBS poll has his approval rating now at 37%.

        • Mathius™ says:

          (A) The CBS poll is an outlier. Other polls from the same period range between 41-43. 37% is the lowest in the approvals and highest on the disapprovals with a spread 7-points bigger than the next biggest. Not that it should be written off, but it should certainly be taken with a grain of salt.

          (B) While 40.4 (a fairer number, averaging other concurrent polls) is a low for him, he has ranged between a high of 53 and 42 since falling below 53 in November 2009 (the fall-off from his post election peak.. you know, once he started actually having to govern instead of just saying nice good things). His ratings look more like a sine-wave centered around the mid 40’s, crossing the axis about a half-dozen times.

          (C) A more interesting number is his DISapproval number. This stands at 55.3 (+14.9) and a record there as well. Approval has crossed with disapproval 7x since he’s been in office, so there’s nothing special to read here about his being underwater in the polls, but that is a large spread nonetheless.

          (C-2) I’d only point out that he could invent the cure for cancer tomorrow and there’s still a core of, say, 25%+ who would still disapprove of him. Since November, 2008 (3 months before he was sworn in), he has averaged 38% “strongly disapprove.” (Rasmussen).

          (D) I’d also like to point out that congress stands at +8.9 / -85.1 (-76.2), so perhaps it isn’t so much that people disapprove of Obama specifically as much as Washington politics / politicians in general.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            I’m not much on polls, but these are telling. Congress sucks, period. That hasn’t changed much over time. Why then do these same people get reelected? As far as Smokey Pants, he has lost credibility with many who believed in him, that is where the biggest change probably occurred. He knew people couldn’t keep their plans, yet he continued to say it. The ACA is a mess and will not work. Now, the law says that the Insurance companies will get subsidies if they don’t lose money, WTF? Obama needs a big moment to change things, he’ll get it too. 🙂

            • For the record, G, I NEVER believed him him … but I believe in your guys even less 🙂

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Charlie, I would appreciate it greatly if you would stop referring to anyone in politics as “my guys’. They are not anything close, I do not vote for them. I don’t even like them. 🙂

            • Mathius™ says:

              As far as Smokey Pants, he has lost credibility with many who believed in him, that is where the biggest change probably occurred.

              No, see, that’s what I’m telling you.

              He HASN’T lost his support from “many who believed in him.” He’s just going up and down along the sine curve, but he’s still fairly close to his previous levels over the last couple years. Strong support has stayed constant in the low-mid 20’s since his election. Soft support ranges between 20-30.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Mathius, can we just agree that his approval rating is not very good? Arguing over semantics is not productive 🙂

              • Mathius™ says:

                Sure, but can we just agree why that is?

                It’s because his negatives have solidified. He lost (some) middle to the minus side, but they keep flipping back and forth, meanwhile his negatives have migrated from shallow minus to deep minus and aren’t coming back. His core (about 40%) is pretty much constant and shows no signs of defecting.

                The right still hates him, the left remains mixed/positive, and the indis can’t ever make up their mind but are leaning against for the moment though they’ll probably switch back in a few months as they have been doing for the last 4 years.

                In other words, yes, not very good, but not very bad either. The media loves a good narrative, but it just isn’t there at the moment. They should really stop reading the tea leaves – they’re not very good at it.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        All this over some “entertainment” Geez! 🙂 http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57613067/poll-obamacare-support-obama-approval-sink-to-new-lows/

        But Obama’s ratings suck, that is the only part of the CT that is real (until the false flag event 🙂 ).

    • The ruling class will not let their puppet … you, G, are their puppet … don’t forget to sign up for their next war … oy vey.

  24. gmanfortruth says:

    Different subject for a moment. With all the crazy things going on with all the “gates”, now we can add the Census Bureau to the list. Any one else think that this was cheating on the election in 2012? http://eaglerising.com/3011/jack-welch-right-obama-administration-cheated/

    • Just A Citizen says:

      G

      Glad you reminded me about this issue.

      Here is one of my WARNINGS that this stinks to high heaven. As with all those other “bombshells” that turned out to be complete BS.

      This one smells of the same creation. A PHONY accusation goes viral. The Hate Obamers go crazy and in the end wind up with egg on their face.

      BEWARE……………This may not be at all what it seems.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        Maybe not, but based on this clowns history, it wouldn’t surprise me. Besides, I don’t vote in the fraud called Federal Elections 🙂

      • It may not but I remember when the President did this :

        In February of 2009, the Obama administration required the director of the Census Bureau to report directly to the White House. Some Congressional leaders believed that this was done to ensure that former Senator Judd Gregg did not interfere with the census outcome. Senator Gregg had been placed in charge of the Department of Commerce which is the bureau that normally oversees the census.

        Critics of the move asserted that there is no precedent for the Department of Commerce to be circumvented to have the census placed under political operatives at the White House. They noted that a census could be altered to politically favor one party over another.

        http://www.thepoliticalguide.com/Profiles/President/US/Barack_Obama/Scandals/Census_control/

        I found the move suspicious!

  25. @ Mathius…..

    Mathius observes: SUFA’s right is far to the extreme of the “real world.”
    D13 mocks: WHAT? YOU COMMIE PINKO ASS HAT…..EXTREME?
    D13 gets serious: Don’t you think that “real world” needs to be explained….if you mean real world in the sense of the world as a whole..then I guess that I am going to be extreme because I simply do not give a bilge water rat’s ass about the rest of the world. If you mean “real world” as to the population of the United States….I think that you and I will have to disagree a little on this. I am not convinced that the population of the United States is as progressive as you think…..I think that you have to eliminate population centers as New York and LA as being representative of the thinking. It is not. I firmly believe that if the entire population of the United States, man for man, woman for woman, North, South, East, West were legitimately surveyed, I do not think you will find this entitlement attitude to be pervasive at all. I think you will find that most believe in personal responsibility and that the State (meaning Fed Gov) is far to intrusive.

    And, I know that you believe in personal responsibility yourself and that the entitlement mentality is becoming pervasive because you do not live it. You, personally, are responsible and you are not on the dole. Your attitude is not I am owed this. Both yours and Buck and even Todd’s. Charlie? Well, that is a whole other paragraph.

    Mathius uses this term: “the ideological staunchness”
    D13: Not so fast there, my intrepid friend…..ideological staunchness is equally pervasive as well. It is not 10 times or even twice that on the right vs the left. Look, you have Charlie…we have G man….nuff said?

    Mathius: Every word we write is scrutinized, picked apart, subject to misinterpretation, strawman arguments, and more.
    D13: And the other side isn’t? It depends on whose ox is getting gored,verdad? I have noticed that the right sees a rose as a rose….the left sees a rose as a flower. Both are correct….but a rose is not just a flower. Plant a rose in a bed of pansies…..you have a group of flowers but the rose is still different in structure, needs, genetics, and ideology.

    Mathius, trying to make a point, says: there is at least SOME motivation behind the voter ID laws driven by a desire to disenfranchise Democrats and sway elections.
    D13 says: Is this not the same as the Democrats trying to force non voter id to sway elections? It is an argument on both sides. Why do you support the right to vote of non citizens? There is plenty of proof that illegal immigrants, aliens or whatever vote and that they vote democratic because of the giveaways. Do you not agree with this? Disenfranchisement works both ways, does it not? Is a legal voter not disenfranchised when an illegal voter is allowed to vote?

    Mathius hits the proverbial nail dead center: “Are you too hard on progressives? Maybe in the sense that you’re hard on the progressive movement and progressive politics in general.”
    D13 Agrees with this in its entirety: It is the movement that some of us are in disagreement with and I am one of them. This does not make me Tea Party. I do not align with the Tea Party and not a member of it. I do, however, support some of its agenda just as I support a fragment of the progressive agenda. I think that both sides Conservative and Liberal use people to sound off as a movement cannot respond.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      d13

      Tip O’ the Hat to you for that one.

      Hope all is well. Sudden CHILL in the air here and VERY CHILLED in the Rockies this AM.

      Damn Canadians, letting the ice box stay open when you least expect it.

  26. @ Mathius…….Social conservative……ok. I admit to this……Mild neo-con…..well, sir, I hope you were smiling when you wrote this….

    Leaving now to look up term neo con…….Raptor Force on alert.

    • Mathius™ says:

      MILD!

      I SAID MILD!

      GodOhGodOhGodOh.. ::runs for it::

      • Having looked up neocon and learning about this term……reading…..learning…..

        ::::beep beep…whiirrrrrr…beep beep::: ranging…..radar looking for Mathius…..

        digesting what neocon means in all aspects….Raptor force still on alert……………….

        • Just A Citizen says:

          d13

          Let me help.

          Neo Cons believe the USA has a “responsibility” to spread Democracy around the world. By FORCE if need be.

          Just remember, Neo Con was the term given to the Democrats who supported the Progressive theory of American Imperialism who defected to the Republican Party when the Dems went all Anti War and Anti America on us in the late 60’s.

          That should pretty much be enough for you to realize you should turn the Raptors loose.

  27. @G : Sanders thinks that Unions are great. I agree and disagree. They (Unions) got greedy and priced themselves out of business.

    His point is that workers need to organize … and that people in the same boat without representation (non-union workers) have been convinced that what unions seek for their workers is a bad thing (like you guys in here having an issue with pensions, etc.).

    I think we can agree that we should all be able to EARN a decent wage. Sadly, the skills of many are not marketable in the higher wage brackets.

    And don’t forget why? Outsourcing to decrease labor costs … now American workers are earning much less than they were (so bringing the work home is almost profitable) … great! We can turn the US into a third world country that much faster!

    Do you think the guy that sweeps the floor should be paid as much as the electric technician that keeps the business running (just an example)?

    I think the guy that sweeps the floor should be paid a salary that can pay for his life (and the life of his family) … not so little that he needs food stamps or to sell swag/dope/whatever to make ends meet. I also think the technician/hedge fund manager, you name it, doesn’t get to have an “unlimited” income (no cap) …

    I think you believe that the floor sweeper should be paid more, because he should live a better life.

    Nope, see above. But it wouldn’t it be nice of we didn’t have generations of floor sweepers (i.e., if people weren’t born into the situations that leave them nothing but floor sweepers)?

    Where things get screwed up in your ideals is that when you pay the floor sweepers more, the electricians will want more and on and on.

    Nope. In fact, it’s proven otherwise elsewhere … or why aren’t all those technicians out there in the rest of the socialized world “flocking” to America (with all those Canadians and others seeking our healthcare)? Just isn’t true. You don’t have to pay the sweeper “More” than the technician. But why can’t everyone who works have a pension? Why shouldn’t a sweeper have a future to look forward to (retirement)?

    Unions, the bad part, looking at the auto industry, priced their jobs to plants overseas, where labor was cheaper. Let’s face it, should a guy that puts in 15 screws over and over for 8 hours (something that don’t require high dollar skills) be paid big money?

    Pretty much everything has lost to overseas (white collar jobs included (like mine)) … so long as capitalism exists as it does today, the highest profits will be sought wherever they can be found. There’s the point your missing, my friend.

    The unions then demanded that the auto industry do business with other Union companies. These companies also pay high wages for low wage work (in some cases, not all). This causes the price to go up on those parts bought by the auto builders, who are paying high wages for low wage work, which also cause the price of the product to go up. End result, cars cost tens of thousands (10 times what they are really WORTH). The cost of greed? Did this cause the plants to move overseas?

    So, unions shouldn’t seek more money (greed) for their workers, but the companies can? Nice system … and it works … look at Wall Street … the greed of investment banks caused a financial meltdown … and who got fired? Workers … not the CEO’s, uh-uh, they got bailed out and gave themselves bonuses … again, nice system.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      Charlie, Re; Unions. I don’t have a problem with good, smart unions. I was a Teamster for 10 year, I was a shop steward and on all the contract negotiating teams. Have you EVER experienced union activities such as that? My point was that Unions get greedy and price themselves out of work. That, Sir, is FACT, not opinion. If needed please use Hostess as an example.

      But it wouldn’t it be nice of we didn’t have generations of floor sweepers (i.e., if people weren’t born into the situations that leave them nothing but floor sweepers)?

      Yes, this would be great. This is a subject that I would like to cover in next thread, so don’t forget it.

      so long as capitalism exists as it does today, the highest profits will be sought wherever they can be found.

      Different forms of Capitalism exist everywhere on earth. It provides people with “the best” chance to get out of poverty and succeed. What your problem is with isn’t the form of economy, it’s the corruption that screws the system up (I would agree with you if that was your mantra).

      Capitalism has existed under many forms of government, in many different times, places, and cultures.[7] Following the demise of feudalism, capitalism became the dominant economic system in the Western world. Later, in the 20th century, capitalism overcame a challenge by centrally-planned economies and is now the dominant system worldwide,[8][9] with the mixed economy being its dominant form in the industrialized Western world.

      Different economic perspectives emphasize specific elements of capitalism in their preferred definition. Laissez-faire and liberal economists emphasize the degree to which government does not have control over markets and the importance of property rights.[10][11] Neoclassical and Keynesian macro-economists emphasize the need for government regulation to prevent monopolies and to soften the effects of the boom and bust cycle.[12] Marxian economists emphasize the role of capital accumulation, exploitation and wage labour. Most political economists emphasize private property as well, in addition to power relations, wage labour, class, and the uniqueness of capitalism as a historical formation.[
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

      So, unions shouldn’t seek more money (greed) for their workers, but the companies can? I didn’t say that, reread my post if need be.

      • I’ll answer as I have time … one at a time:

        You wrote: Have you EVER experienced union activities such as that?

        Yeah, I was a union window cleaner in NY for 10 years. It was as corrupt a union as you can find. Useless and totally in management’s pocket … so, what’s your point, Vanessa? (not an insult, just a line I like from Austin Powers) … most unions today are dirty … and the fact they support the Democratic Party so overwhelmingly is just a testament to ignorance and corruption … the Dems don’t do shit for unions … even the auto bailout (workers lost a lot more than management) … but that doesn’t change the fact that workers need to organize … take away Citizens United and put a cap on what anyone/organization/union/corporation can donate and maybe they can be effective again … maybe they can find some genuine representation … right now they’re victims (slaves, if you will) to the Democratic Party because the Republican Party would prefer they be called chattel rather than workers.

  28. Nice story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOLOLrUBRBY&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLB1860C67A2998C0B

    then again, he’ll be going to school where that leftist Chomsky teaches … 🙂

  29. Just A Citizen says:

    Well this is disturbing, in so many different ways. I do wonder WHY Daily Kos had a reference to this story, however. There was no explanation.

    http://www.metafilter.com/133956/he-intends-Assassination-Market-to-destroy-all-governments-everywhere?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

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