OpenMic 2014 Part 3

Propaganda AgeJust a few thoughts then on with the discussions.  Black Flag mentioned the importance of history.  He is correct, because if I recall correctly, all great societies were finally destroyed from within.  The vast majority of Americans are ignorant to what is going on around them, this, is probably, par when it comes to past Empires, just a thought.  The Democrat LIE machine is in full think mode to save Hillary’s hopes in 2016, sadly, most Democrats will believe the upcoming lies.  It’s a simple, well used strategy, blame someone else.  In this case, it will be blame Obama  😉   I think that blaming Obama may be quite the mantra in the coming years.  Remember, keep an open mind and try not to cast off ideas as crazy.  Usually it’s the crazy things that come true.



  1. 😎

  2. Once again, please review this video:

    • Good video, old news to me. Even as a teen, I never conformed to the fads or what was supposedly socially acceptable. That has carried over to what I consider, being able to see through the BS. The Left/Right paradigm, political correctness, and just about everything the Left claims is all just BS. The elite Statists stay in power by keeping the masses divided. The terrorist boogiemen that the CIA funds and controls and so on. It’s all about control and power. I’m the kind that don’t like being controlled and don’t respect ill gotten power. I have more respect for an honest burger flipper at McDonalds than any politician, bar none.

      • The purpose of the video is many.

        1) To inform and articulate HOW such propaganda power is released. If one know the means, one can defend against.

        My examples to Anita et al where ideas are engrained -not by self-reasoning and self-assessment- but by consensus and rote learning from authorities.

        This is why JAC and I harp and shrill constantly about principles and their application by reasoningthis is the most powerful and fundamental “armor” one can place around your own mind to defend against such things.

        Without it, you are in a battle naked.

        2) Provide factual information to the unenlightened about what is being done to them, how it is being done to them, and what to do about it.

        Observe the cults around movie stars. Yesterday, all the news services published minute-by-minute Breaking News about…. who won a Golden Globe! That’s BREAKING NEWS worthy of being called BREAKING NEWS?!?!?! Breaking News is something that may fundamentally change your day… but some self-glorified artificial persona winning some statue for pretending to be someone else is …. BREAKING NEWS!?!?!

        3) And further, note the solution the video offers.
        It suggests to use the same mass-propaganda “for good” as evil uses!

        Do you believe that is a good idea?

        What makes “us good people” believe we can use this tool of mass manipulation for good and not evil? Think Lord of the Rings.

        It is clear to see how easily evil can beguile even the most enlightened of people byappealing to not their principles but to their goals in an “end justifies the means as long as the end is declared “good””

        • Just A Citizen says:


          Glad you mentioned the contradiction. I was confused when in the end they suggested if only WE could wear the Ring life would be good.

          I also noted the propaganda tone within the video regarding Kennedy. The recent tapes of his discussions with his Cabinet over Viet Nam in no way supports the claim he would not have allowed escalation.

          While he did not like the idea, he had not removed it from the table. He was more concerned over PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS of being part of a LOSING side. He knew there was a tremendous political risk to appearing weak.

          And of course the linking of the “assumption” and the assassination video…nice not so subtle attempt to connect the “hidden govt” to JFK being “killed”.

          I wish they would have spent more time linking events to the HOW rather than the standard Boogey Man…..the CFR.

        • I agree Pirate 🙂 If people would just understand how brainwashed they are into believing utter BS, then maybe we could all move forward towards real solutions. Until then, we wait, inform, and try our best to change the thinking.

          • If people wouldn’t believe bullshit, we wouldn’t need any solutions.

            • Not really. Life will always have problems that are not man made. Solutions may not end the problems (weather) but can save lives. In todays BS propaganda world, They want us to believe that abortion is a “choice” issue. It’s not, it’s population control and made available primarily to minorities (blacks). The last numbers I saw is that 50% of black pregnancies end via abortion. Eugenics has been around for quite awhile. If you really look at who are the biggest pro abortion people are, you can see what I mean.

              • Dale A. Albrecht says:

                From a PBS program

                From a History Channel Program:
                “selected clip”

                The United States Supreme Court endorsed aspects of eugenics. In its infamous 1927 decision, Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind…. Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” This decision opened the floodgates for thousands to be coercively sterilized or otherwise persecuted as subhuman. Years later, the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials quoted Holmes’s words in their own defense.

                full text


              • The folks in Robes, lost there relevance when they claimed the ACA as OK. My bet is that the NSA had much to do with that.

              • Dale, great find! Just the thing to bash the Global Warming crowd over the head with when they go on about “science”. That, phrenology, Lobotomies, and bleeding to cure your ills were all almost 100% endorsed by the scientific community.

        • Dale A. Albrecht says:

          My thoughts on the media. The MSM was bad enough before and we can argue core principles all we want. I remember some specific events that get to the heart of the MSM and principles. Before D-Day in WWII, to put a stop to the press running all over England trying to smoke out the invasion plans, Eisenhower, pulled the press togther and laid out the plans. He also issued a threat that if any of this leaks out before the invasion, the reporter would be shot. Once the invasion started no problem the Germans would know we’re there. The second event was a hypothetical question posed to reporters. The question was, if you were invited by a NVA company and you saw that they were setting up an ambush on a US military company, would you jump up and warn them? Dan Rather earned the everlasting hatred of the military by his answer. He’d let them get ambushed basically to save his own neck. Claimed freedom of the press and so on and so forth. The third event was after the Gulf War I. The heads of the major news outlets were asked if they had known about “Stormin Norman’s” plan before the invasion, would they have broadcast it? The head of CNN, Turner, not Ted, said by all means they would have published and broadcast it, because the people have the right to know. No matter how many soldiers lives it may have jeopardized. What would have happened to the general if he used the same tactic as Eisenhower. I’d bet he would have been removed. During the reflagged tanker escorting during the Iraqi/Irani war. The ship commanders were ordered to lock down their close in defense systems so there would be no shooting down of the reporters helicopters tailing the ships. That led to the USS Stark incident not being able to defend itself from the two exocet missiles. Which was a consequence of the Iran Contra arms sales and neglecting to tell the commanders in harms way that their government was double dealing.

          • The easiest way I know of having to end the debate whether censorship and false information is necessary for a successful war is simply to not have a war.

      • Dale A. Albrecht says:

        So the pentagon has refused to divulge the names of the “suspected” terrorists slated to be released. Claiming it’s classified information. They’ll release it to a secret hearing of the intelligence committees but it is not be divulged to the public.

        Reminds me of the uproar in Burlington, Vermont when the Feds planned on paroling “Squeaky” Fromme and placing her in a halfway house there. She was a Charles Manson disciple and attempted an assasination of Gerald Ford. The Feds claimed the people have NO right to know that she was being release in their neighborhood. Needless to say she was never paroled until serving 34 years in custody.

  3. Just A Citizen says:

    The emperor has no clothes, the emperor has not clothes.

    Emperors Cabinet claims the emperor is wearing many clothes, so many that he can barely walk.

    Sheep all scream…………look at those pretty clothes.

  4. Just A Citizen says:

    Seems there are still SCIENTISTS who do not believe this global cooling accusation being made by the skeptics.

    Seems there are differing OPINIONS on the matter of warming, cooling, where, when, how much, etcl

    Does seem strange that a flattening of the temp line is being touted as Global COOLING.

    Would not COOLING mean that the temps are dropping from the prior period. Or are the anti-global warming folks using Congressional Budget Logic to declare a drop, … you know,…..from the PROJECTED growth/increase.

    • I wish the Weather Channel would leave this crap to the environut cult and just stick to what they know, predicting the weather short term.

    • Well, it IS cooling just a little bit, nothing to write Mom about.

      The funny thing is the AGW zealots have more or less admitted that the “pause” is a result of nature. BUT if it warms it must be mankind.

      How bizarre.

      Their zealotry depends on man being more powerful than nature, they then admit that not to be true, and then ignore what they admit.

      • Just A Citizen says:


        Man is stronger than Nature……… a limited extent.

        “To conquer nature, we must obey nature”.

        I think we ARE having an affect on Global Climate as affected by temperature along with other things. Some of which are temperature related.

        However, I have not seen DEFINITIVE proof of the “PREDICTIONS”.

        I expect in the end this will be all about magnitude, extent and duration.

        Fact of the matter is that no matter what OUR IMPACT will be, it will be COVERED UP by a Natural Change of greater magnitude, extent and duration. Something like an Ice Age or Meteor Strike, or Super Volcano will make AGW look like a flee bite.

        • Humans may have contributed 0.1 to 0.3C over the last 100 years.

          This effect is even smaller as we go into the future as CO2 is a logarithmic effect – 10x more than what is present is required to double it’s effect over the present – so whatever we add makes far less and more less of an impact.

          • Just A Citizen says:


            Your claim is consistent with what I have found, if one discounts the TOTAL PRO arguments.

            Not absolutely sure either position is precise nor even accurate to a high confidence level.

            I have never thought CO2 would be the real culprit. Methane makes much more sense as a serious cause. However, it is also one of the easier ones to reduce without causing economic catastrophe around the world.

            • JAC

              It is not discounting or accepting the opinions of others on this matter.

              It is a matter of SCIENTIFIC FACT. Such a thing tends to be utterly immune to “opinion”.

              Wouldn’t worry about Methane.

              First, there is absolutely so little of it, it doesn’t rate. Heck CO2 is a trace gas to begin with measured in a few hundred per MILLION, and compared to CO2 methane is a trace gas which is measure in few hundred parts per BILLION.To the atmosphere its like a 1/100 of a penny in a million dollar bank account.

              Second, Methane by its nature is active – it WANTS to replace the bonds with Oxygen and does so naturally in the atmosphere every time lightening flashes, which happens a few millions times per day.

              • Just A Citizen says:


                I don’t know how you can claim Scientific Fact when postulating on the amount of effect humans have had on temperature. The number of variable in the programming and models is simply to large to make such a claim in my view.

                I would say It is a FACT that the extent of our influence claimed by the AGW crowd, over the recorded temps, is distorted. It is FACT that we have had some influence on local and perhaps regional climates, microclimates. It is FACT We do NOT know the precise nor accurate extent of OUR INFLUENCE. Because the Global or outside influences get mixed with the regional and local.

                Do you agree with my characterization?

                On Methane. It is my understanding that as a “green house” gas Methane is far more effective and that effect is more linear than CO2. So would not the “worry” depend entirely on the rate of Methane increase in the atmosphere and the rate of dissipation? Both of which affect the “concentration”.

                I know these gases exist in nature. The question is whether production of them in larger and larger volumes will CHANGE our atmosphere to the point of affecting Weather, Oceans, Climate, etc.

                If there is a threshold for CAUSING such change what is that threshold?

              • JAC
                I don’t know how you can claim Scientific Fact when postulating on the amount of effect humans have had on temperature. The number of variable in the programming and models is simply to large to make such a claim in my view.

                It is not MODELING that creates this fact, but actual SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTATION.

                We know PRECISELY that this amount of CO2 does exactly this to temperature. Period.

                Whether that amount of change AFFECTS anything in climate is unknown.
                It is FACT We do NOT know the precise nor accurate extent of OUR INFLUENCE.

                The two thing are independent.
                What we KNOW CO2 does with warming vs what such WARMING does in a climate.

                Because the Global or outside influences get mixed with the regional and local.

                Do you agree with my characterization?

                On Methane. It is my understanding that as a “green house” gas Methane is far more effective and that effect is more linear than CO2.

                If we use a numerical scale, with “1” being the effect of water vapor.
                Methane = 4

                But the QUANTITY in scale, with
                CO2 = 600
                Water Vapor= 900,000

                If there is a threshold for CAUSING such change what is that threshold?
                No such threshold exists ON EARTH.

                The Earth is a Negative Feedback Loop, the more “outish” something is, the more natural force is applied to push it back to the Dynamic Equilibrium.

              • Just A Citizen says:


                I disagree with your equilibrium statement to this extent.

                WHAT is that equilibrium. We KNOW as FACT that the planet has had several periods of general dynamic equilibrium.

                Although it is my belief that these periods were not in equilibrium at all, just that the movement towards the next general state was small at times and thus not noticed by many.

                Now let me make sure I am understanding you. YOU claim that no amount of Methane released into the atmosphere is going to cause a significant change in global temps. Is this right??

              • JAC,

                Actually what is shown is YOUR OPINION on what the DYNAMICS “should be”, not what they are.

                You actually believe STATIS is the norm. No, the word is DYNAMIC Equilibrium. Earth will never be (in human terms) neither a ball of ice or a sea of fire, but somewhere in between.

              • Absolutely not. Methane is a non-starter.

                As I ALREADY POINTED OUT, Methane is unstable. It wants to react. It does so EVERY LIGHTING FLASH, turns into water and CO2. Its concentrations are irrelevant, and will not climb so high to ever become relevant, simply because the more there is the more it reacts and then less there is.

  5. Just A Citizen says:

    FINALLY. Somebody looked into the historical record regarding the Govt’s claim that collecting meta-data is helping PREVENT TERRORIST ATTACKS.

    Intuitively I figured this a Bull Shit argument. Now we have some back up.

    Let me add my take. The meta-data helps PROSECUTE and make other potential links with a suspect once they have an actual “SUSPECT”. It does nothing to PREVENT anything.

    Especially there convoluted argument that they don’t RECORD the conversation yet the data is “saving lives”. So we are to believe that a big computer brain can identify a potential Terror attack just by reading the telephone numbers that are connecting to one another??

    • I concur with your assesment, as usual JAC.

    • Dale A. Albrecht says:

      Agreed….maybe an analyist could trip upon a plot of some sort using the data collected by the government agencies. It would be by accident though. I’ve always believed and argued these massive data repositories would be used as an after the fact tool to make a case or to be used when someone is targeted for some reason by the government. Recent example is the bank robbery spree across the US. The FBI almost immediately using the “GPS” location data collected from the robbers cell phone, was able to place him in each of the locations of a bank robbery. This was not from the phone itself but from the data bases. Heck, the government doesn’t even react to someone calling them up about a plot.
      With 40K plus new rules and regulations each year coming online and not overseen by Congress once they delegate authority to the regulators of the administration, anyone at any time can be “GOTTEN” to if desired by the government. Earlier I used arbitrary and capricious as a description of the law as used in the US. Our leaders keep touting how we are so superior because we are a nation of laws. Hitler’s Germany had laws, Stalin’s Russia had laws, Mao had laws, they’re just different than ours, but both methods have the same purpose in mind. That is to “CONTROL” the population to do the bidding of the government. The government is the only organization that can “LEGALLY” do violence upon the no matter how you define violence.

  6. Just A Citizen says:

    For those who don’t know, OREGON has fallen flat on its face when it comes to the O-Care exchange rollout. WORSE than the FEDS if you can believe that. At least one fired…or resigned, but not much more yet. This is not the only fiasco caused by STATE efforts.

    They have delayed a State takeover of the Medicaid assistance to children and adults with disabilities. Currently these programs are funded by states but managed and paid by Counties through various “private companies” and “govt. agencies”. The State wants to change this to State control but the ROLLOUT has been postponed again this past week.

    Seems the system is not ready either.

    5 months and counting……. yeeeehaw.

  7. Just A Citizen says:

    Here is a little something related to and complimenting Black Flags video posted about how power is grabbed and retained.

    And people are always blaming the lobbyists for all the woes in D.C. I told you all long ago, it is the politicians who drive this bus.

    • Of course it’s the politicians, all 536 of them. After the 2014 elections, it will be all 536 of them and after the 2016 elections it will be all 536 of them, with a new Presidential administration to help them screw the country.

    • As usual, you’ve summed up my thoughts on this. Just gathering info is not benificial until a target has been identified….at that point, you might as well get a warrant and do it the right way.

      • Oops, I thought it ate my first post….and then posted it on the wrong topic…..I’m rusty, lol

        • Just A Citizen says:


          Good to see your still hanging around and alive. Hope all is well.

          • Having a baby will take you out of rotation for a while, lol.
            I still try to read up when I get chance though.

            • Just A Citizen says:


              Congratulations. Missed that little tidbit.

              Question. Have any idea what % of your fellow employees SHARE your outlook and views?

              Are you the “dinosaur” like I was or at least part of a small herd!

              • I’d say that I’m in the minority….but it’s a growing minority.
                The biggest majority are somewhere between run of the mill Republican and TEA partiers…but I’d say there is much more questioning of authority now then there ever was. My guess is that it has been long enough after 9/11 for most of us to start examining all the crap that was implemented in its wake. I’d like to think it from me using the term “Police Industrial Complex”, lol….

                The most interesting thing I’ve noticed is how a lot, maybe even most,of us are turning on or atleast questioning the “War on Drugs”-even former narcotics officers.

            • Just A Citizen says:


              That is good to hear.

              It means that dangerous little thing called THINKING is spreading.

              A virus the CDC has no power over.

              Stay safe, and best wishes to the new family member.

              • I agree. LEO’s are typically curious by our very nature, curiosity usually leads to thinking. It’s just a lot of us get to bogged down in the details and just doing “the job” to see the big picture…we usually assume that because so much of what we do is considered good, that we don’t often honestly evaluate all that we are asked to do and fail to see the parts that are bad or look at their unintended consequences.

              • Just A Citizen says:


                That is not an affliction limited to LEO’s. I saw in my agency, others I dealt with and pretty much every company where people are just trying to do their jobs. All assuming they are doing Good Things. Few ever look up and say,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wait a minute. What was the goal again and just who are we serving?

                Good to hear it is increasing around you though. That is a critical branch that must be “enlightened” if we are to affect any real change in the future.

    • Dale A. Albrecht says:

      Will Rogers many years ago in one of his political humor routines, said “What we need to do is look around in your community, find all the crooks, elect then to congress and send them all to Washingtion. There at least we can keep an eye on them all in one place” I may not have phrased it quite correctly but the meaning is there. Unfortunately we did elect the crooks to congress, but instead of keeping an eye on them, we expected them to pillage the wealth of the nation to “Bring Home the Bacon” so we can get our share.


    What’s your opinion on GMO seeds? I sit with the farmers and expect that at some point Monsato will be burnt to the ground 🙂

    • Just A Citizen says:


      It depends on the nature of the genetic modification. The herbicide resistant modification is interesting but will fail. The bugs and weeds will need new pesticide formulations. The genetic modifications will be “chasing” this.

      Now on the legal issue. It should be only ONE. That is contamination of “unmodified” crops by the “modified” crops.

      However, here is the problem. The DAMAGES to the organic farmers are primarily “marketing” driven. In other words, they have developed a niche market based on marketing fear of GMO in general.

      So what is their real financial damage if their fields are cross pollinated? They can sell that portion of their crop into the OTHER market, already contaminated.

      As for the impact to Monsanto from cross pollination….WHO’s field was established first? WHO’s crops were established in practice first?

      I think the FEAR of GMO is WAY OVERBLOWN. If not for genetic modifications from the original seed stocks, many humans would have starved to death by now. We might not have these great cities and industries we think so highly of today.

      For some of us that wouldn’t be a terrible thing, but obviously for many, many others it would be.

      • If not for genetic modifications from the original seed stocks, many humans would have starved to death by now.

        JAC, that’s pure propaganda with no basis of fact. How many billions did the govt hand out for farmers NOT to grow crops? IMHO, GMO’s remove nutrients that people need which is having a cause and effect of lots of fat people. I also believe this is an attempt to CONTROL food, which is dangerous and should never happen. The Govt controls Monsato, and if they control the seeds then what? Yes, you are a slave to the whims of both (which already exists and nobody even knows it) 😉

        • JAC, as for the legal issues, to me it’s a clear example of more govt corruption. All three branches are so far gone they all need replaced.

        • Just A Citizen says:


          Propaganda you say!

          OK, how about our modern Corn. How many people could we feed on that NATIVE corn the Indians used??

          How about the shorter varieties of Wheat that keep millions of acres from being destroyed by wind and rain each year. And of expand the region in which wheat is grown.

          Every vegetable and fruit crop consumed today is the result of Genetic Modification of the original seed stock.

          This is why the “HYSTERIA” of GMO needs to be EXPLICITLY described when trying to make claims against it.

          Furthermore, cite one reputable scientific study showing conclusive linkage between genetically modified foods and ANY disease, defect or significant health risk. Obesity in the USA can be tied to FAT, SUGAR and LAZY.

          You are doing the same thing as the Hysteria, Fear Peddling crowd do. You use a catch phrase, GMO but you fail to recognize the difference between the genetic modifications made over centuries and those where manipulations are made that could be harmful or used to control seed supplies. The latter issues are recent in time.

          And paying people to not grow crops has NOTHING to do with GMO’s. So why would that be your first example of how I am wrong???

          Clear Thinking my woodsy friend. You need to use Clear Thinking.

        • Dale A. Albrecht says:

          I have not followed the GMO debate until recently. As I get it, the GMO food products are nothing like the trial and error methods used by farmers and ranchers over the millennia. Most of the GMO foods are sterile and can not reproduce. Requiring a purchase of new seeds, as an example, for the coming season. Can’t set aside some for planting next year, use some and sell what’s left over for cash to buy other items that you can not make yourself. The changes that are being made are mostly against nature and non reproducible in a natural way. To use an analogy of antibiotics. The very things that antibiotics were designed to cure are mutating naturally faster than they can make changes in the lab and the bugs and virus’s are getting stronger, not weaker. GMO’s in the long run will not turn out well. There is an old Cherokee legend about how the animal world planned to deal with the increase in Human’s. The bear said, I’ll take care of them, I’m bigger and stronger. Finally after long discussions in the animal world, the pesky microbes spoke up. Even though they appeared small and weak, they could wreck more damage upon man than all the other forces in the animal kingdom. Granted the indians did not know the mechanisms of diseases at the time, but they sure as heck knew about things like affects of malaria and other illnesses caused by “unseen” means.

          • Just A Citizen says:


            The issue of sterile seed has existed for some time. It is a cost of the hybridizing to increase yields and expand growing areas/seasons.

            I know there is some of what you are claiming going on now. That is deliberate for the purpose of limiting access. But some of this work was also done to prevent spread of characteristics to other crops or specie. A hybrid that can reproduce can create other unforeseen and undesirable hybrids.

            So you see, some of the “sterile seed” is done to avoid the problem you raised with anti-biotics.

            Now , the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Plants are living things. No matter what we do, the drive of living things to continue existing is unbelievably strong. Life will find a way to make fools of the Geneticists and Chemists.

          • Just A Citizen says:


            It is pretty much impossible to do something AGAINST Nature. We can try but it won’t last.

            So you need to describe/define what you mean by this statement.

            Are Humans part of Nature? If so then what we do is part of Nature, yes??

            • Dale A. Albrecht says:

              bottom line is that you agree with my assessment of the ultimate outcome. I remember an old commercial from prehistoric days about comparing butter and margerine, about not being able to fool Mother Nature. I do know the ad was for margerine and its claims to have fooled Mother Nature into thinking it was butter. But look at the consequence. Margerine is far worse for your health than natural butter.
              I know this is digressing, but if I look at my yearbooks from over 40 years ago, and compare the population around schools today, they are night and day different. Yes we had some over weight children in school, but it was a handful. Exactly 2 kids with diabetes in a 4400 kids in a 3 year high school. Now it is the inverse. Most overweight and an epidemic with diabetes. Lots of changes have affected that overall health reversal, but first and formost I blame the FDA, CDC and their activist midset on how to solve problems. The 70’s was a watershed decade, where activist law to solve all mankinds ills really took hold in this country, and I have yet to see any real positive outcome or solution to the original problem occurr. The problems just got bigger requiring more rules and regulations governing the unforseen consequences of natural behavior.

        • Dale A. Albrecht says:

          Sort of along the same subject of food and the laboratory

    • Dale A. Albrecht says:

      Monsanto, the FDA and EPA are synonymous or should I say incestuous organizations, just like Goldman Sachs, the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury.

  9. As Malcolm once said, “the chickens have come home to roost”.

  10. Very well done! This mother knows a pile of crap when she see’s it!

  11. Just A Citizen says:

    Oh me oh my!

    Suggestion to the RNC. Copy this ……………. take note that Hillary was SOS when this occurred…………… it over and over and over along with the Benghazi footage and funerals.

    Now that I have offered my political propaganda ideas, lets focus on the message in this commentary:

    Key Question: Is this just typical rhetoric, or is this in fact how the USA is now viewed in the world.

    • This is the view of the world. Nobody respects Obama, including most of us, and nobody thinks he has any balls. The man is a coward, just like all of his followers, cowards. They talk shit and can’t back up anything with facts. They have to LIE to push their agenda, which apparently isn’t very damn good if they have to LIE. As far as I’m concerned, Obama and his followers are the TRUE enemies of the United States. They are the ANTI-Freedom people who can’t handle life without a collar and leash keeping them under control. LYING DOGS! 👿


    I have no comments that I can possibly put here that would be appropriate.

  13. JAC

    I agree with what you said about GMO seeds, as far as not being able to feed 7 billion. I see it as a double edged sword though. I think there is something sinister with the fact that Monsanto has cornered the market on seeds. I can’t put my finger on it, it’s just a bad feeling. Tell me why the veggies I get at my supermarket taste like nothing, but the veggies that came out of my garden last summer took my taste buds back about 40 years. Something is up.

    • Anita, a couple of things that contribute to garden veggies beating store bought is ripeness and freshness. Garden veggies are picked when ripe as opposed to store bought which is often picked early. Also you consume these garden veggies immediately or preserve them for use in the winter. Store bought has spent at least a day in the field, maybe on in the processing plant, followed by trucking followed by the grocer’s warehouse.

      Commercial food is also enticed to grow quickly through the heavy use of fertilizers. In many cases it is grown for looks. I am fussy about corn. The corn in the stores looks great but it is often picked a couple of days late, hence the kernels look fuller. By that time it has lost some of sweetness and pop. I have had that argument with several produce managers. I grow my own corn.

      I also love fresh cantaloup. The store bought stuff is nearly tasteless because it is picked green and “ripens” on the shelf. Vine ripened melons are sooo much better. Unfortunately, the deer love them.

      • Dale A. Albrecht says:

        Only two fruits ripen off the tree. Avocados and bananas. They mature on the tree but only ripen off. Makes them very good for the market. If you can grow your own produce, next purchase at the farm itself. Not only tastes better but you will live longer also. Nothing tastes better than sweet corn picked and processed for the off season within 1/2 hour.

    • Just A Citizen says:


      T-Ray nailed it on the “taste” of fruit and veggies. I am now living where much of this stuff is grown. Farmer’s Markets have GREAT produce, full of flavor.

      I would only correct T-Ray in that much of the stuff in the store has been picked more than a week before you ever see it. Lets not forget the steps of disinfecting, packaging, rail, plane and then the truck to brokers, then wholesalers and finally your local store.

      I share your bad feelings about ONE outlet for seeds.

      • Sorry, forgot I lived in CA and not in fly over country.

      • I’m often amazed at what garbage people eat. thinking it’s healthy and good for them. Corn, for example. I harvest and freeze sweet corn each year. Blanched and cut from the cob, into a bag, supersealed and frozen. Enough till next year. The taste is truly fantastic each time it hits the taste buds. That will never happen with store bought corn. The nutrients are gone, along with the taste, people might as well MOO like cows because that’s about what their eating, cattle feed. The cattle will never understand why they are overweight. With the lack of nutrients in today’s store bought foods, the cattle must eat more because their body is in need of those nutrients. End result is lots of fat people.

        • Just A Citizen says:


          Unless you are using heirloom seeds you are growing and eating the SAME corn as you find in the store.

          Remember, Monsanto owns ALL THE SEEDS.

          • They do not own ALL the seeds, that’s hogwash. Yes, all seeds used are heirloom. I specifically ask the Amish where they get their seeds (all respond heirloom). Local farmers market is the same way, not GMO products. I have seeds in storage in airtight packs, all heirloom. It’s really not hard to find this stuff out in the country, ask Anita 🙂

            • Last year we made pasta sauce with the tomatoes we grew, from Amish seedlings. WE also got all our spices from local growers. It’s simply the best tasting sauce I ever had. Store bought can’t touch this stuff 🙂

            • Just A Citizen says:


              Was it not you who said Monsanto owns/controls all the seed sources?

              Tip: The longer you store your seed the lower the seed viability. Rotate your stored seeds.

      • Hohohoh

        Be careful with that one!

        Penn and Teller did an unscientific experiment at a farmer’s market where they provided industry grown tomatoes vs the farmer’s pick.

        90% of the time, people picked the industry’s for taste, look, appeal and texture – for a reason!

        A company does not sell its crap. It throws them away knowing people will pick and choose in the pile the best anyway. Why ship the crap which costs money?

        So what shows up is already the best of their crop.

        They expanded the test to label the tomatoes – one Industry, the other Farmer’s – though it was the same tomato cut in half. Again, 95% picked the Farmer’s because of the mistaken belief that it must “always be better then the store’s”.

        It points out the fallacies of the mindset of most people. “Local is always better” when, in reality, it rarely is.

        • “Local is always better” when, in reality, it rarely is.

          And exactly who’s reality is this? Wouldn’t you want to know how your veggies are grown, what chemicals are used etc. Isn’t supporting the LOCAL economy better than enriching some company in Brazil? I’d rather can and freeze local/home grown veggies than by imported any day.

          By the way Pirate, Hope today finds you and your family happy and healthy 🙂

          • Let’s pick apart your bad argument.

            Why do you believe your neighbor’s poorer quality good is “better purchase” then the guy 10 houses down whose has better quality?

            Why do you believe your neighbor having your money while you have a low quality good in return better then the other guy when you have a better quality good in return? Or are you “altruistic” and give your money away for no reason?

            All farmers use chemicals, otherwise pests would eat the crop. Period. Wash you food and the problem is solved.

            You choose for your own reasons – fine – but making up STORIES AND MYTHS for your reasons is bizarre.

        • OH, I think it’s safe to say that most people are totally ignorant to some of the most important issues they have in their lives. It’s more important to keep up with the Kardashian’s and watch Maury on the idiot box 🙂

        • Grow your own veggies, then do a taste test. There IS a big difference. Ain’t no fallacy in my mind. 😉

          • Oh Dear Anita,

            It is ALL IN YOUR MIND.

            Do you believe the chemistry of a tomato is different, somehow, grown by the same seed?

            In my factory, I have exactly the right fertilizer mix, water level, humidity, lighting, picking and processing that makes the best possible food – because that is what my customers demand.

            You are merely guessing. You have no controls, no lab, no specialized chemists and biologists doing this.

            There is a lot of emotional positives in growing your own food, for sure, but taste and quality ain’t it.

            • I beg to differ Flagster. My taste buds say home grown green beans have a better flavor that the canned stuff at the store. My corn also tastes way better than the canned stuff. You can claim all day long that the people with the scientific advantage grows a better product in every way, but my taste buds will tell you your full of shit 😉

              • Well, I hope so

                Canned goods are for food STORAGE to be used when there is no food grown.

                Compare YOUR CANNED food with STORE canned food, and yours will likely be worse.
                Compare YOUR GROWN food with STORE selling grown food, and yours will likely be worse.

              • Sorry Flag, but to be blount, your completely full of shit in this case. My tastebuds say different, and they will always win over your scientifically modified junk veggies in the store.

              • Nope. I guarantee it is your BELIEF not your taste buds.

                Your mind is made up, therefore, you discount one in favor of the other.

                Blind taste tests consistently show that your mind is wrong.

        • Just A Citizen says:


          Since you responded to my post I will reply.

          My comment was about FRESHNESS and the fact that due to where I am, picking occurs much closer to Ripening.

          The type or seed stock origin of most of the Farmer’s Market produce is the SAME as the commercial growers.

          The down side, storage period is very short compared to store bought.

          I know there is a difference because I have experienced a difference. Tomatoes are a great example. Except in the late summer, the tomatoes in Montana stores are pretty much chalk.

          Over here, Portland, they are much better for much longer. Same goes for Corn. Because the growing season is so long the Corn in the FALL is actually fresh and ripe, as in not over ripe.

          • JAC,
            Modern food processing utilizes modern transportation. The “freshness” difference is not measured by months, but maybe by a couple of days.

            Obviously for winter, food is stored to cover these times. But you will have the same “taste” out of your “stored” food too.

        • Real tomatoes are RED. This past year, I could not find a single instance of a red tomato in a supermarket. Everything was orange. Taste? There was no taste.

          • Again, complete mistake of concept vs observation.

            Why do you think they were delivered pre-ripe instead of -at other time- ripe?

            Do you think the manufacturer “just did that”?
            Do you think the demand for tomatoes was so high, he shipped product to fill that demand?

          • Do you really believe there were ANY tomatoes ANYWHERE near you that were ripe?
            If there were, why weren’t they there?

            You’d be better guessing THERE WERE NO TOMATOES then offering another story.

            • Tomatoes are available 365 days of the year. The problem is they are all picked early and are grown to guarantee no defects (which encourage early rot). This results in uniform tomatoes, orange in color with no taste. Standing in the supermarket some times, I am amazed watching folks pick vegetables who have probably never in their life eaten a real freshly pickled ripe vegetable. Today the appellation “hot house” tomato is apparently considered good. My Mom considered it quite the opposite and would do without rather than waste her money.

              My big complaint is when the veggies are in season despite living in the “Garden State” with the exception of roadside stands and an occasional farmers market, you still cannot get freshly picked.

              I blame no one. We demand veggies and fruits that are out of season to be on our shelves and have to sacrifice accordingly. The pitifully small crop I can grow in my overly shaded yard are savored for their flavor.

  14. I have always wondered where the statement that 95-97% of scientist agree that AGW is real and a problem. In a debate on the local paper website, I finally got my answer.

    Note in the link, NASA quotes statements from several scientific associations. The tacit assumption is that all members of the association are in agreement with the statements published by their executive committees. Hence we get a number like 95-97%. Now I am a member of several scientific societies including the ACS which is one of the societies quoted. I have never been asked to vote on any statement put out by the society let alone on on AGW. I have a good friend who resigned from the AGU when they published their statement. So the this number is based on an assumption hence it is a big LIE.

    • The whole Left Wing movement is based on LIES!

      • Just A Citizen says:


        But not everything they support is based on lies nor is it bad.

        That is how lousy philosophies and movements take hold. They always mix good and bad ideas together.

        It makes them harder to attack with broad generalizations like “The whole Left Wing movement is based on LIES!”.

        I will grant you one thing. That “movement” is based on the concept of Altruism, which is a lie. A lie in this case being a principle which contradicts our nature and which leads to our retardation instead of advancement.

        • You do realize you started out disagreeing with me, then turned around and said exactly what I said in with different words? 😉

          • Just A Citizen says:


            That would entirely depend on WHY you made the statement you did.

            If it is for the reason I stated then you should have included “The Conservative” movement in your statement.

  15. Just A Citizen says:

    Buck the Wala

    A perfect example of the “interpretation” or “living document” theory which I rant against frequently.

    “Howard University’s Afro-American Studies Chair Russell Adams accused Thomas of racism against all blacks for falling in love with someone outside his race. “His marrying a white woman is a sign of his rejection of the black community,” Adams told The Washington Post. “Great justices have had community roots that served as a basis for understanding the Constitution. Clarence’s lack of a sense of community makes his nomination troubling.””

    What say you my lawyer friend??? Is “community roots” the Founder’s intended “BASIS” for understanding the Constitution?

    Note to SUFA general: I copied this statement from an article on Michelle Malkin’s site. The article was about the racist hypocrites on the left. So if you want to explore that issue you can visit her site.

    • Barack Hussein Obama has no black community roots. Born to a mixed couple, raised by a white mother and Asian stepfather in an Asian country, returned to Hawaii where he was raised in perhaps the most racially diverse state in the Union by white grandparents and then going off to white Ivy league colleges where he associated with whites and Asians while apparently passing himself off as an Asian student the man then becomes a community organizer! Marrying up into an American upper middle class black family, the man then proceeds to move that family to a heavily white neighborhood where his children attend private schools.

      Perhaps the biggest fraud perpetrated on the American black population who supported him 97% is that he shares something in common with them.

      Regarding the “Living document theory” I suggest you always, when talking about the subject, point out that words have meanings. When the meanings of the words can be changed on a whim, words no longer have meaning. Extrapolate this to the Constitution where we fight over the meaning of words within the document rather than refer to the common use definition at the time it was written.

  16. On war:
    We are mad, not only individually, but nationally. We check manslaughter and isolated murders; but what of war and the much vaunted crime of slaughtering whole peoples?

    There are no limits to our greed, none to our cruelty. And as long as such crimes are committed by stealth and by individuals, they are less harmful and less portentous; but cruelties are practised in accordance with acts of senate and popular assembly, and the public is bidden to do that which is forbidden to the individual.

    Deeds that would be punished by loss of life when committed in secret, are praised by us because uniformed generals have carried them out.

  17. Just A Citizen says:


    Re: The ongoing debate of extending unemployment.

    Listening to NPR this morning and a story on North Carolina “SLASHING” the unemployment benefits which in turn disqualified people from getting the extended Federal Unemployment benefits. I want to address ONE of the comments made by the left winger interviewed.

    He claimed that the unemployment rate in NC had dropped because people fell out of the work force which was in turn due to eliminating Unemployment Benefits.

    The interviewer never said a thing. Not a single follow up.

    Like you know, why would someone losing benefits just drop out of the work force instead of actively looking for work??

    The obvious inference here is that the Unemp. Benefits are somehow tied to WHO GETS counted as Unemployed.

    In case anyone who visits here has forgotten, the Unemployment/Employment RATES have NOTHING TO DO WITH a) Filings for unemployment or b) Unemployment benefits paid.

    It is based on a SURVEY of households. Are you “looking for work”?? If you say yes, you are part of the “Labor Force”.

    Now back to the show!!

  18. Just A Citizen says:

    Question for the SUFA Brain Trust.

    Does anyone know what affect raising POT has on the Soils where it is grown and cultivated?

    I am thinking here about structure or long term soil productivity.

    • Your soil will be happy, happy, happy? Ok I’ll stop 😉 need a nap..flu bug got to me this time.

      • Hope you feel better. Take lot’s of Vitamin C 😉

      • Just A Citizen says:

        LMAO……………. 😉 back at ya.

        Go make some Ginsing and Lemon Tea. Use the actual Root and cut up thin slices.

        Add a touch of brandy or bourbon and a dash of honey if your coughing.

        Drink several cups a day.

        You will not only be happy, happy, happy, but warm to boot.

        • Just A Citizen says:


          I was concerned about allelopathic chemicals from the pot plants in particular.

          • I don’t know the answer to that, as I don’t grow pot 🙂 But if I did, that’s all I would grow in a garden. I could grow a separate garden in another area, if the law allows it and it’s financially worthy 🙂

        • Just A Citizen says:


          Sorry my dear that is GINGER ROOT, not Ginsing.

          Was trying to give you my recipe while think of allelopathic plants for my question to gman.

          Maybe I should take a nab as well. 🙂

    • I believe there is no difference when growing pot vs. veggies when it comes to soil usage. For the most part, pot needs the same nutrients in the soil. But like all plants, it may use more of one than the other, and a good grower would treat the soil as such.

      As for my garden, I use chicken and horse manure every year. I also have it tested at Penn State University to determine if I need any individual chemicals in the soil. I have yet to need any special chemicals or fertilizers. So far, all natural 🙂

  19. I think it’s safe to say that most rural areas are conservative in nature and vote that way. Gotta love Obama the Prick N Chief.

    • Just A Citizen says:


      If you recall, I posted a comment or two on this back in September and in October.

      Once again, SUFA was ahead of the game.

      If you also recall, I said the Administration even asked the States to return the money already paid to the states but not yet spent. The States told Mr. O to piss up a rope. They did NOT return the money.

      • Yes, I recall. We are ahead of most things here, because we’re no afraid of bringing things up, even if it qualifies as a CT 🙂

        I also think that one way for the states to control the Feds would be to withhold all monies that go to the Feds. That’s one way to starve them into submission.

        • Just A Citizen says:


          ACTUALLY it is the REVERSE.

          STOP TAKING THE FEDERAL MONEY. That would END the black mail and thus most of the Control Mechanism.

          Then they would have to resort to outright FORCE to gain State Compliance.

          And that usually doesn’t go over very well with the people.

          See Sage Brush Rebellion and the Bucket Brigade for examples.

  20. Just A Citizen says:

    Black Flag

    On Tomatoes and taste of Ripe vs. Store bought.

    Please notice that little line in there about how the breeding of uniformly green/red tomatoes has killed the taste.

    As I said, the seed stock is pretty much the same but my LOCAL tomatoes are Ripe. Not picked green and shipped to turn red in transit. Which of course means they may or may not be RIPE when I find them in the Safeway.

    I submit that the most significant difference between Store and Local is the seed stock. Especially in small truck farms or family gardens.,8599,2118455,00.html

    • JAC,
      Honestly, do you really believe producers grow food in a manner that their customers will have no taste?? Hardly.

      As shown, it is MENTAL. In side by side taste tests, store food almost always wins for a reason

      It is consistently better quality, taste, texture etc. then what you can grow yourself because you are facing off against PROFESSIONALS vs. your amateur action.

      • Just A Citizen says:

        Black Flag

        I KNOW that producers grow food that they THINK will SELL quickly and at a profit.

        Their BELIEF about what sells and does not sell has caused them to make decisions that affect the taste of food. These effects are well documented and are the result of cross breeding, picking time and storage.

        So yes, producers are growing Tomatoes that have LESS taste than they used to have. It is a trade off they have made for uniformity in size, shape and color as well as the ability to reduce spoilage between picking and sale.

        And picking certain crops, like tomatoes, before they ripen enough will reduce their juiciness and their flavor. They don’t always completely ripen before they are purchased and consumed.

        You really need to catch up on this topic.

        If you are struggling with Tomatoes then try Red Delicious Apples on for size. If that is not enough then try PEACHES and certain varieties of PEARS.

        • No, sir, you need to catch up.

          Manufacturers absolutely concern over taste. People do not eat wood, no matter how good it looks feels or costs.

          I suppose, to you, you must ponder why such companies employee thousands of taste tasters, biologists, chemists, etc in the amounts of $billions then, if all they want is “speed”.

          • Just A Citizen says:

            I need to “catch up”? Really?

            Posted in 2012:

            Also posted last year were stories about the efforts by Washington Farmers to recapture the flavor or the Red Delicious apples. They admitted that efforts to select for shape, size, color and skin thickness had been done at the sacrifice of flavor.

            Yes they are concerned about taste. Now that the market share for Red Delicious has fallen precipitously.

            Thus the hybrid Fuji has more flavor. Well it had. That variety is now seeing wide fluctuations in flavor, indicating either a broad range within the hybrid or slight differences and thus different hybrids.

            Sometimes I think your view about what producers worry about is more driven by your ideology than reality. All producers do not act the same. All producers do not conform to the anarcho-capitalist or Austrian theories. That is why they fall victim to the market.

            If they all did as you claim they did, there would be STATIC market conditions.

            • No.

              Producers cater to the desires of the market and as the market changes, so do the producers.

              It is nothing about ideology, but economic theory that describes this.

              There are reasons producers produce the goods they do and that reason is the market demands it

              The ideology is actually yours, not mine, to allocate some other sort of bizarre economics upon the system to explain a strange idea that professional production of food is “somehow” worse than your amateurish creations.

              You do not cook better than a professional chef.
              You do not fix your car better than a professional mechanic.
              You do not paint your house better than a professional painter.
              You do not grow your food better than a professional food producer.

              You cannot afford to be better than a professional – you have other things to do – hence you will not be better than a professional, since that is essentially all they do.

        • Once again, cart before the horse.

          Why do you think they pick early?

          Do you not think it is because there is a high demand for food NOW and not two months from now.

          So you complain it ain’t ripe! But boy would you scream if there ain’t any

      • Fooooooooood Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight !

        Everybody blast BF with tomatoes for not acknowledging truth. You lose on this one brother! Naptime………..

        • Anita,

          No, I don’t.
          It merely demonstrates yours and others thinking on the subject.

          Because you are so conformed into seeing food on the shelves everyday for your pick and choose you absolutely and utterly do not think about how that comes about and why – you ignore what is an everyday, common in your life then focus on the fringe

          You EXPECT to see all the food available in the store. You will not notice all that food – you only notice it missing.

          But it is rarely, if ever, missing. So such you become blind to such a fact, thus you do not measure or calculate any of your desires with that in mind.

          So, you end up comparing your produce which only appears 3 or 4 months a year to what appears 365 days a year and think you are comparing the same things.

          You do not compare your stored tomatoes in your cellar in December to the ones in the store because yours are rotten – you shrug that off as no contest.

          In fall, your comparison will lose to the store, both fresh, but theirs will consistently be better every time.

          No, you compare what you have in fall with what the store has in dead of winter and mistakenly believe that is valid.

      • Just A Citizen says:


        I am aware of the taste studies and comparisons. This does not PROVE it is all about perception.

        Those studies prove that perception can in fact affect our detection abilities. This is along the lines of the propaganda which you discussed yesterday. Not a PROOF that the taste is in fact different.

        I KNOW when something has a different TASTE or meets MY QUALITY CRITERIA. That is NOT dependent upon someone “confusing me” with Local vs. Commercial or Farmer vs. Store.

        To show the fallacy of the argument, WHY did people start thinking Store bought tomatoes had little to no taste? This general complaint has existed before the Farmer’s Market craze ever got going.

        I have spent most of my life in areas without much Truck Farms or Local Markets. Yet my friends and I all noticed and commented on the changes in fruit quality and taste over the years. What external psychological influence was it that caused us to make this observation??

        Could it have been that the difference between the store bought and the stuff we picked in our gardens was suddenly much greater???

        • You start of “this doesn’t prove”, then end with some assertion that your unscientific, personal bias of opinion measured by your faulty memory over past years somehow demonstates a fundamental change. Hoboy.

          • Just A Citizen says:


            This started with MY observations. Which you then claim are BIASED by things that you DO NOT have any proof even existed as part of MY observations.

            Sorry my Pirate friend. You are out to lunch on this one. I know what has Good Taste and what does not. So do my friends. We may not agree between us but we know for ourselves.

            And these observations over time have nothing to do with what we were told or conditioned to think.

            Your entire argument rests on YOUR assumptions and assertions about what I think or have experienced. You of all people should know better than to base an argument on such a weak set of data. Is this not what the AGW crowd did in their “tweaking” of data?

            The Science has proven our observations to be true. Many of our foods have LESS FLAVOR, are LESS JUICY, or LESS SWEET than they used to be. There are reasons for this and they have been proven by Science as well.

            Where these differences are due to picking time, storage methods and transportation time, ie Ripe vs. Something Not Ripe, people will in fact experience a REAL difference between the “Something Not Ripe” and the thing picked from the vine/tree/stem that is Ripe.

            Where these differences are due to Genetic hybridization, there will be little difference between the two. Modern Red Delicious Apples, for example will taste equally bad when fully Ripe. Whether in the Store or in your Yard.

  21. Just A Citizen says:

    Black Flag

    Dynamic Equilibrium is a STEADY STATE and the earth has gone through Several periods classified as STEADY STATES.

    Your argument is silly.

    Definition, one of many that all describe the same thing:

    A dynamic equilibrium exists once a reversible reaction ceases to change its ratio of reactants/products, but substances move between the chemicals at an equal rate, meaning there is no net change. It is a particular example of a system in a steady state.

    • “Dynamic Equilibrium is a STEADY STATE and the earth has gone through Several periods classified as STEADY STATES.”

      *cough* – so to you something that is always changing is steady.

      No it is NOT a steady state. IT IS DYNAMIC. Equilibrium means “return to a mean” – what goes up must come down is DYNAMIC and EQUILIBRIUM.

      Yours is silly to think motion is static! Methinks you have a backwards idea of this thing.

      This is not a chemical reaction, JAC.

      It is a SYSTEM state. Get your field of study right.
      Think marble in a bowl on a rocker.

      • Just A Citizen says:


        Did you miss the part where I said that it was ALWAYS changing???

        The term Dynamic Equilibrium refers to a complex STEADY STATE. That is the DEFINITION. Sorry it does not match up with your argument.

        So yes, it is both a Steady State in terms of input/output, forward/back, etc, etc. As in the feedback loops you often describe.

        But if something creates a distortion in the feedback, a NEW steady state is created. One that appears to all observations to be “steady”. Those of us in the Ecological Study fields created a term to describe the “dynamics” of these period of “general steady state”. We call them the “range of natural variability”.

        As with all things involving ecological systems, the level of equilibrium, the extent of change and the duration of such change, depends on the size or level of the system being evaluated. As well as the time period.

        The Last Ice Age was a period of Stable State, with fluctuations of conditions occurring within the period. But the general condition of “Ice Age” was the Steady State . But if we expand the analysis to include the period since then we get a different “steady state” and a broader fluctuation in condition within that state.

        Another example, if you take the earth as the UNIT, that being underground and above ground, oceans, land, magma, air, etc, etc. You could claim it is all in equilibrium as long as there are NO EXTERNAL factors that create change.

        Or you could argue the Universe is in Dynamic Equilibrium as well and ALL conditions on Earth throughout its history are part of the Dynamic Equilibrium of earth!!

        Kind of silly if you ask me. Since making such a claim IGNORES the very reason we evaluate these systems in the first place. That being the IMPACT to Humans and to OUR Habitat.

        You see, it doesn’t matter if the Earth covered with toxic gases is part of the Dynamic Equilibrium of earth or the universe. It would be INHABITABLE for Humans.

        • Again, you perversely go over the cliff in your claim.

          The EARTH is not static – otherwise we would never enter nor ever leave Glaciation. There are not periods of “static”, ever. There are conditions that change over time, always.

          To believe man can poison that atmosphere is a statement in a belief of Man-is-God. We couldn’t if we tried, let alone do so by accident. We are so puny, the Universe sees us as a joke.

          • Just A Citizen says:


            I NEVER claimed that Earth was STATIC. Steady State and Static are NOT THE SAME in the world of Ecology. Nor in the world of Biological System on Earth, over time.

            As for your last argument that is perhaps the most ridiculous I have ever seen. You claim we cannot make our own home inhabitable just because we are “small” or “NOT GOD”.

            I didn’t think you subscribed to the Evangelical Theory of Ecology and Evolution.

            I happen to know first hand the Universe does NOT see us as a joke. To do so would mean the Universe itself is a joke.

  22. Flag, Down here.

    I can use my childhood as an example. Even back then, home grown was always better tasting. I didn’t like green beans as a kid. On one Thanksgiving day, my Aunt talked me into trying her home canned beans. I loved them. Today, I still prefer my canned beans vs. store canned beans. That’s just my taste buds, not my mind. Them same exact thing can be said about applesauce. I never cared for store bought applesauce, but have always loved home made. Today, I make and store my own, because IT TASTES BETTER to me. It’s really that simple.

    There is a huge difference in the flavor of my pasta sauce vs. anything I’ve ever had from a store. I grew the tomatoes from Amish heirloom seedlings. Even my father said there is a noticeable flavor difference from store bought. You can believe in your beliefs, but you can’t change my reality to what I think tastes better. That’s just one thing science can’t change.

    • Nope, sorry, GMan.

      You loved the beans because you loved your Aunt.

      You love your beans because you did the work and it makes you proud (rightly so) to be independent in producing your own food.

      You love homemade because you love the one who at home made it.

      But in blind taste test, you will chose on taste alone and you will consistently pick the PROFESSIONAL version over the AMATEUR.

      • Just A Citizen says:


        The test you cited was NOT A BLIND Taste Test.

        • Err, yes I did.

          The first test had no labels and 90% picked the professional version.

          The second test had different labels on the same product, and 90% picked the “homegrown” label.

          It was unscientific by Penn and Teller. They did it for their show. But what they were repeating was based on massive scientific tests that demonstrated the same thing – and on their show, they showed those too, where by renaming fast food to be fancy dishes and changing its presentation, people believed it tasted “better” than fast food.

        • PS:
          “Blind” does not refer to wearing a blindfold.

          It refers to the person PERFORMING the test. The people providing the food did not know which is which, so to eliminate “popular conformity of the subjects” to the tester. It eliminates the tester’s influence.

          • Just A Citizen says:

            If the food was labeled it was not blind.

            • Duh!

              No, that is NOT WHAT BLIND MEANS.

              BLIND ALWAYS REFERS TO THE TESTER, not the subject.

              It that matter what was being tested was whether belief of a label overrules taste. It did.

          • One thing is for sure, home made beer is NOT as good as store bought. I’ve tried many times 🙂 Now, my brandy is pretty good, and I have lots of different flavors. I don’t buy store bought hard alcohol (don’t drink it), but I know that some of it tastes great, and I can’t create such a fine flavor at home. 🙂

      • Flagster, you go ahead and eat your store bought Frankenfoods, I’ll stick with my homegrown, better tasting, organic food. That includes beef, pork, chicken, eggs and lamb as well 😉

        • And soon to be fish (walleye and perch) 🙂

        • This dialogue is not to convince you to change your eating.

          It is to correct your thinking about what is provided by the industry. Your choices, whatever the reason, are yours to own.

          But equally just as wrong is to condemn the industry on absolutely erroneous beliefs you made up in your head.

          • Just sharing my opinions that’s all. My thoughts on GMO’s is simple, don’t mess with Mother Nature. The legal problems alone are enough to dislike GMO’s.

            • But Gman, even your own stuff is GMO.

              Man for 100,000 years has been mixing different strains of different types to produce more and better organics.

              Just because today we have advanced techniques does not change anything except we are better at it, faster at it and more assured of the outcome.

              I am no Monsanto fan because of patent laws etc., not necessarily because of the product.

              • In many ways I agree. I just don’t think what Mansato is doing is good for the health of people, long term. I have read many articles on the lack of nutrients in the veggies from the Mansato seeds. Sadly, most people don’t really have a choice. But I do think that GMO’s should be labeled, which they fight rigorously. There is a big reason for them to fight this, either the product is imperfect in some way or they don’t think it will sell well. Either way, it’s wrong. If it’s good, no need to hide anything.

              • How can a veggie that has a pesticide in it be good for people?

              • No veggie has pesticide IN IT.
                It has pesticide ON IT.

            • I’m going to do a really blind taste test the next time my teenage cousins visit. I’ll post the results. The veggies will be prepared exactly the same.

              • No, get your neighbor to prepare it.

                You will over-salt one over the other or over-cook one over the other.

                Give neighbor both, without saying which is which, and in the same (lack) of packaging.

                Then see….if even YOU can tell the difference.

              • Actually, the salt is the problem. The store bought stuff has salt in it, mine don’t. I’ll figure something out that will suit all the blindness needs. I’ll just have pops cook it, and not tell him it’s a test. Neighbors live too far away.

              • Then you are not comparing the same stuff.
                Make sure it is canned vs canned
                Fresh vs Fresh

                Not canned vs fresh

  23. Is anybody paying any attention to the Fukushima issue? Radiation levels on West coast seem to be on the rise, sardines dying off, claims of a dead ocean by boaters and many other stories being reported on the alternative news sites.

  24. Just A Citizen says:

    APPLES continued.

    Just for those on SUFA who may have had their interest peaked. So much for the “days” between picking and arrival at the store.

    Good news though Gman ………………. those store bought apples may get closer to tree ripened flavor. As long as they are picked at “just the right time” and nobody screws up the storage/transport.

    Big take away?? These storage methods were developed to address a “problem” with getting product to market that was fresh AND flavorful.

  25. Flagster, what are the actions one must do to be considered a “Professional”? I can be considered a professional at many things, depending on what aspects are required to be considered so.

    • That what you whether you like to do it now or not, as a means to create wealth for yourself.

      “engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.”

      • So, I get paid each growing season to grow a garden, maintain it, harvest the veggies and clean, prep and can the veggies for storage, means that I’m a professional. I also get paid to put people in the best hunting spots, plus harvest game myself for food 🙂

        That is and has been big parts of my paid responsibilities in my primary job that I’m paid to do. Therefore, as a professional, I can honestly tell you that my veggies taste better than store bought veggies, therefore your previous claims have no merit, as you are NOT a professional when it comes to raising and preserving veggies. Case Closed 😆

    • Yeeaaah. I just posted about you being around in the summer so we can rehash tomatoes. On that were no where around for me to cry on your shoulder when gold fell way into the elevens. Don’t leave me hanging again like that BF! I’m still in the hole but not as bad. Make it go back up.

    • We’re talking about tomatoes, not chickens and dogs 😉 Yeees, BF I understand it’s all about everything being manipulated since forever. You just make sure you’re around in July and August so we can do a real comparison of store bought vs home grown.

    • Flag, if you look at the original beginning of the GMO discussion, it concerned Mansato and their lawsuits. While my concerns are only of the Mansato works, it seems the subject has morphed somewhat. I don’t think that cross breeding seeds is a bad thing at all. My concerns come from the stuff Mansato has done with the seeds. Making plants bug resistant, as Mansato claims, certainly means that some form of pesticide is “inside” the plant itself, which in turn means it’s also in the fruit. Here is one example of problems with their product:

      The birth deformities and spontaneous abortions that many farmers in the USA have reported in their GMO soy- and corn-fed livestock have plagued Argentine humans living near GMO soy fields.

      I’ve read many stories about GMO fed livestock and the medical issues traced to their food. If it hurts animals when it’s eaten, what will it do to people?

      So, for the record, the GMO discussion should be kept to Mansato products. 🙂

      • I am more concerned with cross-fertilization. All-natural plants can be pollinated by GMO plants, producing hybrids.

        I am not sure of the details, but I would hope that GMO plants are being designed to not reproduce…neutered plants, if you will.

        A few pollen floating in the air can taint an entire seed stock, as it will create hybrids within your garden.

        If you have 180 corn plants, and almost a dozen of them get fertilized by a GMO plant, any seeds from them which are used for next year’s garden will fertilize others in your garden. Within a few years, your entire stock is tainted/different.

        • BL, the subject began because of cross fertilization. Mansato was suing farmers because the farmers, unknown to them, had had crops with patented DNA owned by Mansato. They were winning these cases, which is totally absurd.

  26. New subject: Warning Shots

    I have always felt that there may be circumstances when a warning shot would be appropriate. Unfortunately, those circumstances are rare. Scaring off a thief trying to break into your shed might qualify, if it’s done safely. If you are under threat of attack and the sight of your firearm don’t change things, then a warning shot is a waste of a good bullet. Any thoughts?

  27. Just A Citizen says:

    Peyton always cracks me up.

    Me thinks he has a future in politics.

  28. Flag, what is the Baltic Dry Index telling us?

    • Down 2/3 since 1 year ago – generally flat line

      Went up to 1/2 since 1 year ago for Xmas session, and then in Jan. fell back to the previous flat line level.

    • Just A Citizen says:


      With all the conspiracies and theories these types hold I wonder why it never occurs to them that THEY might be the Zombies they always talk about.

      What if the OWG folks are just messing with them knowing that they can get X% of the population all fired up and freaked out to the point they start shooting back.

      Which in turn will give the Govt the moral authority to CLAMP DOWN and make those Fema Camps a reality.

      • I’m just staying ahead of the game incase of a zombie problem, BWAHAHAHA! I do enjoy some of these stories, mixing facts with fiction is always very entertaining. Of course, the zombie virus is an interesting twist (although already in the movies). IMHO, the only chance of a zombie attack is if the SNAP cards don’t work,, 🙄

  29. Opinons-I know there is another law which puts a buffer between protestors and funerals-which I agree with because the protestors actually drown out the services but I do not know the size of the buffer.

    Irony: Kagan Compares Abortion Clinics to Slaughterhouses at Supreme Court

    by Matthew Clark | Washington, DC | | 1/15/14 6:09 PM





    Do pro-life Americans have free speech rights – the right to quietly talk to willing passerby’s on the street corner – or are the public sidewalks surrounding abortion clinics somehow speech free zones impervious to the protections of the First Amendment?

    That is the precise question considered by the Supreme Court today in McCullen v. Coakley.

    Pro-abortion legislators in Massachusetts passed legislation making it illegal for anyone to speak on the public sidewalks – otherwise known as exercising the First Amendment – within 35 feet of abortion clinics. Illegal that is for everyone but employees of the abortion clinics.

    Today’s case was the epitome of the abortion distortion – the fact that abortion changes the calculus of longstanding legal principles.

    It is axiomatic in Supreme Court jurisprudence that public sidewalks are open public fora. In other words, your free speech rights are guaranteed on public sidewalks. For the government to prove otherwise, they would have to show that any restriction is based on some overwhelming or compelling government interest and that the restriction they wish to place on that speech is limited or narrowly tailored in such a way that it imposes the smallest imposition reasonably possible on your free speech.

    Just because the government doesn’t like your speech or agree with it does not mean that they get to restrict it – not liking it is not a compelling interest and banning it is not narrowly tailored.

    That’s First Amendment law in a nutshell … in every case that is but abortion. Regarding abortion the rules too often become distorted in favor of abortion and against pro-life viewpoints. To some, the First Amendment just doesn’t cover pro-life speech.

    That abortion distortion was front and center today.

    For years before this pro-abortion restriction passed, Eleanor McCullen, an elderly pro-life sidewalk counselor, had ministered to women seeking an abortion. She would kindly and quietly counsel women approaching abortion clinics about the value of human life, even helping them find assistance from pro-life groups when they chose to keep their babies. She was literally saving lives. And she is one of the nicest women you would ever hope to meet; I had the privilege of meeting her today at our office after the oral argument (pictured above along with a fellow plaintiff Father Eric Cadin, standing behind her).

    After the statue passed, Mrs. McCullen’s ministry was essentially shut down. Refusing to be silenced, she challenged this unconstitutional law.

    Most disturbing about this case though is that it was not just Massachusetts defending this pro-abortion law, the Obama Administration sent its lawyers to the Supreme Court to argue that this anti-pro-life speech law in no way violated the Constitution.

    At one point the Obama Administration’s lawyer actually argued that there was no such thing a right to conduct a quite conversation on a public sidewalk. Justice Kennedy was baffled.

    In a painfully ironic moment, Justice Kagan compared abortion clinics to slaughterhouses, asking what if this statute had been written about slaughterhouses to keep animal rights activists from blocking the entrance and exits.

    Jaws dropped throughout the Courtroom when she said that. The comparison is eerie, as abortion clinics take the lives of millions of unborn Americans each year.

    This case should be decided later this summer, and a lot rides on the Court’s opinion. Will it uphold free speech or will it continue to promulgate the abortion distortion?

    Fourteen years ago, ACLJ Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow argued an almost identical case, Hill v. Colorado. Importantly, it was a case in which Justice Kennedy issued a stinging dissenting opinion on the side of pro-life speech stating that the court’s ruling upholding a similar buffer zone “contradict[ed] more than a half century of well-established First Amendment principles.” The three dissenting voices in Hill, Justices Kennedy, Scalia, and Thomas, remain on the Court today.

    While it is never safe to make a presumption about a case based on oral argument, there were a number of justices who questioned the constitutionality of this Massachusetts statute.

    Today, Justices Kennedy, Scalia, and Alito were highly critical of the Massachusetts statue. Even Justice Kagan, seemed concerned about how far this particular law went, asking why a 35-foot buffer zone, why so large, saying that the buffer zone would be almost as large as the Courtroom. However, Justice Kagan, like Justice Sotomayor, took a more nuanced approach in their questions. Justices Breyer and Ginsburg who are the only Justices from the Hill majority still on the Court, appeared dismissive of the pro-life arguments.

    Justice Thomas, who is traditionally silent during oral argument, did not have any questions, but surprisingly Chief Justice Roberts didn’t say a word during the course of oral arguments.


    We filed an amicus brief in this case, arguing in no uncertain terms that Hill was wrongly decided and that pro-life free speech should hold the same place as other free speech under the Constitution.

    Pro-life sidewalk counselors like Mrs. McCullen and Father Cadin should not be treated as second-class citizens. The public sidewalks outside of abortion clinics should no longer be speech free zones for those with pro-life views, but should be constitutionally protected
    free speech zones for all Americans.

    • Dale A. Albrecht says:

      Isn’t illegal to commingle client funds and company funds as in the financial case illustrated by MF Global. Whereas isn’t illegal for the tax payers money to pay for abortions in this country. Yet the government funds a very large portion of Planned Parenthood and they commingle those funds with their general fund making it impossible to determine where the government funds were used, much less those funds used for abortion and not. Just another case of government ignoring a set of laws for itself and enforcing the same set of laws differently for the people.

    • plainlyspoken says:

      Why am I not surprised that this case comes to the court out of Massachusetts? How any Supreme Court could find it necessary to uphold such a law is beyond me, unless we accept that the court will be deciding the case based on politics, not the Constitution.

      • For some reason, Liberals don’t think anyone else has rights except them. The Cold Civil War has begun and will continue for quite some time. It’s going to take the actions of a lot of people to squash the Progressive movement. IMHO, In needs to be totally destroyed. Peacefully would be nice, but I doubt it will stay that way.

        How’s the Missus Plainly? Hope she is feeling better 🙂

  30. plainlyspoken says:

    So, over on the dreaded website (shame on me for using FoxNews huh?) is this story: “Source: Netwroks upset with A&E for ‘caving’ on Phil Robertson, ‘Duck Dynasty'”


    It tells of how ome senior executives at the networks are upset that A&E brought Phil back to the show so quickly and without his apology for his remarks.

    But, what made me really laugh was this comment: “Where do moral standards go from here? Does this now mean stars can say whatever offensive things they want under the guise of freedom of speech, without repercussion?”

    Moral standards? lolol. When has any network given a damn about ‘moral standards’ over money?

  31. Just A Citizen says:

    Black Flag

    Hey there old friend, a new RIDE for you to try on.

    Should be fun on your trips to the tables in Vegas, or you commute to work.

  32. OH MY, just what the doctor ordered 😆

    • Dale A. Albrecht says:

      Doesn’t the Constitution mandate the “promotion of the general welfare”. I quess if you suffer from a poor libido the government has to step in and provide a solution.

      I do know that “to promote the general welfare” is in itself NOT one of the enumerated responsibilities of the government as put forth by Article 1. But that clause in the preamble has been used as a blank check to justify just about anything the government wishes to do.

  33. Just A Citizen says:

    Why would business men ever pollute the air so badly as to affect the health of their customers? And of course, without Govt laws those suffering would be able to immediately SUE the polluters for the personal damage. To their health of course. The impacts of which may not be seen for years later.

  34. Wars claim more victims.

    A friend and a contractor I hired on site died between 3 Jan and a couple of days ago. His body was found yesterday. He didn’t return home after his shift on the 3rd, though he got on the plane from the site.

    The cause was a self-inflicted wound. But the real cause I suspect was the war.

    He had done three tours in Afghanistan with the Army, and was badly wounded in a leg. He left the Army due to the injury.

    A big powerful black man, avid basketball player – good enough probably to have made the NBA, and lost that dream due to his leg wound.

    He tinkered with electronics and got a couple of jobs before money lured him up here.

    He was a radio tech on site, and always seemed to be of good cheer and was an endless chatter box, always talking about something or other.

    Never saw this coming – indeed, no one knows what turmoil rages in another man’s soul.

    Damn sad. Left behind a newly wedded wife and baby daughter.

    • Dale A. Albrecht says:

      Unfortunately, the government looks at the soldier as expendible and throw away tools just like most corporations view their employees. With US Army troop strengths close to 1/2 of what they were in 1990 and the military utilizing the National Guard personnel as operational troops instead of as a strategic war winning reserve plus with world wide operations continuing unabated for close to 23 years including still in the Balkans, inevitably something will give. When studies have shown 20-30 percent of troops returning from combat operations are suffering from significant psychological symptoms. I’m surprised it is not higher……..could this have a tie in to earlier posts about how troops in the past really could not get over the moral dilemma of killing and either didn’t shoot or at least shot over the heads of the enemy. That was deemed unacceptible by the military and new training was instituted to “don’t think, just react”. Haven’t the numbers grown from maybe 15-25% to over 90%….just wondering….also goes along with the discussion, are humans just hardwired to commit violence or for peaceful co-existence.

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