Can We Talk?

Todd says:

No comments about the Las Vegas shooting?

 

  • As the State increases its arbitrary violence wholesale across society, fringe elements will duplicate such violence locally.

     

I prefer to wait on such events & let the fog clear, let information catch up to speculation.  But OK,  we can talk about it.  I have to agree with Flag we should expect more.  As more and more people feel wronged by a government that holds itself immune from the law, people get frustrated.  They go over the edge.  I do not agree with them or any who advocate violence except in self defense.  I remember a movie with Denzel Washington where he took hostage a hospital to force them to treat his sick child.  Sadly, that lets me imagine a vet in chronic pain going postal at a VA that ignored him.  Remember the Oklahoma bomber felt motivated by Ruby Ridge.  When the Bundy Ranch stand-off started, I wondered if our government was courting an incident….  But what about the Vegas shooting?

 

Paul Waldman writing at WaPo’s Plum Line. The headline gives you the flavor of the post:

“How much does right wing rhetoric contribute to right wing terrorism.”

I vote this column “Most Despicable of 2014.” It just can’t get any worse than this:

What I’m about to say will raise some hackles, but we need to talk about it. It’s long past time for prominent conservatives and Republicans to do some introspection and ask whether they’re contributing to outbreaks of right-wing violence.(1)

Or maybe not. I can accept being labeled “right wing”, “conservative”, “libertarian”, “idiot” and a few other things.  But don’t try & put me in with these psycho murders.  A white, married couple.  Do we now suspect all white couples of planning murder?(2)  I do see they identified themselves as right wing.  I don’t think I agree with their definition of right wing.  And how do liberals identify themselves in these times?  Who gets  Elliot Rodger, The  Santa Barbara killer?

They were psycho’s looking for a cause.  They tried to join the Bundy Ranch defenders And were asked to leave.

Ammon Bundy, one of Cliven Bundy’s sons, told The Associated Press by telephone that the Millers were at his father’s ranch for a few days this spring but were asked to leave for unspecified “conduct” problems.

He called the couple “very radical” and said they “did not align themselves” with the beliefs of other protesters, adding that while thousands of people have been to the site over the last few months, “not very many people were asked to leave. I think they may have been the only ones.”

Cliven Bundy and his supporters, some of them armed militia members, thwarted a Bureau of Land Management roundup of his cattle near Bunkerville, Nevada, in April. The BLM says Mr. Bundy owes more than $1 million in grazing fees and penalties for trespassing without a permit over 20 years, but he refuses to acknowledge federal authority on public lands.

Ammon Bundy said his family “has had no quarrel” with Las Vegas police and disavowed the Millers’ actions.

“The only thing worse than tyranny is anarchy, and we certainly recognize that,” Mr. Bundy said.

The Millers moved to the Las Vegas area in January, police said. Amanda Miller, 22, had worked at a Hobby Lobby craft store in Las Vegas, the chain store said in a written statement, but was no longer employed there.

Jerad Miller, 31, was convicted of felony vehicle theft in Washington state, police said. He also had a criminal record in Indiana. (3)

 

Mr. Waldman seems to want to use this to attack conservatives & gun rights groups.  A convicted felon.  I assume not legally allowed to own a gun & not a NRA member.  The NRA does not support white supremacists or sorveign citizens.  Now some of them may support the NRA, but that does not make it mutual.  And most especially, the NRA only supports legal gun owners.  They are very against violent felons with guns.  They also state, only a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun.  Sadly, it didn’t play out that way.

 

A DEADLY MISSION

At a news conference Monday, Metro officials filled in many of the details and clarified some initial reports. Contrary to what was said immediately after the attacks, for example, neither of the two officers nor Joseph Robert Wilcox, the Las Vegas man killed inside Wal-Mart, ever got off a shot. The only woman killed was Amanda Miller.

Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said it all began when Jerad Miller walked into the pizza parlor and quickly left, returning moments later with Amanda in tow.

“They walked past our officers, who were eating lunch in one of the booths, and immediately upon passing them, Jerad Miller pulled a handgun out and shot officer Soldo one time in the back of his head,” McMahill said.

Officer Beck tried to engage the couple, but was shot in the throat before he could pull a trigger, McMahill said. The Millers then shot him several times more.

The suspects pulled the officers from the booth and covered Beck with a Gadsen Flag, a yellow banner with a coiled snake above the words, “Don’t Tread on Me,” and threw a swastika on him. One of them then pinned a note to Soldo’s body that “basically stated that this is the beginning of a revolution,” McMahill said.

The exact contents of the note have not been made public by Metro.

Once the two entered the Wal-Mart, Jerad fired a single shot and repeated his call for revolution.

Wilcox, 31, was near the cash registers when he saw events unfolding. He was armed with gun of his own, and told a friend he was going to do something.

As he moved to confront Jerad Miller, Wilcox passed Amanda, not realizing the two were together. She slipped behind Wilcox and shot him at close range.

Within minutes more Metro officers arrived on the scene in response to 911 calls. McMahill said they initially blocked the back door with a patrol car. After Jerad Miller shot the door from the inside to open it, a five-officer team entered and exchanged gunfire with the couple.

The shooting raged in the store’s automotive section, spilling oil and antifreeze onto the floor. The two were hiding behind items Jerad Miller had stacked around them for protection, but Amanda was hit by a bullet during the firefight, McMahill said.

Pinned down by police and blocked from all exits, Jerad layed down in front of Amanda, and she shot him several times. Then she shot herself in the head.

 

I think the Waldman’s distract us from the issue & even fan the flames, but for the greater good, of course.  Many on the right seem equally partisan or agenda driven.  The NRA denounced an open carry demonstration in Texas.  They then walked back their comments and seem still to be reeling.  If you are pro-gun & it’s LEGAL, you have to support it, right???(5)    Errr, no!  No I don’t.  I was pleased with their original denouncement.  As a CCW holder, NRA member and member of other shooting organizations, I do not like to see IDIOTS WITH GUNS!  In this day of media hyped mass shootings, is it a good ideal for a small group of men to parade in a crowded restaurant with shotguns & rifles slung from their shoulders?  Were I in that restaurant, I would be deciding who I would shoot first, if they showed any sign of hostility.  I understand what they are doing is legal, but it is out of place & rude.  I have people pull out in front of me while driving.  If I can stop or slow down without hitting them, it’s legal.  That doesn’t make it smart or right.  Imagine a large law firm playing commercials on what is legal on how to pull out in front of traffic.  If you are hit & injured, call this toll free number…  That’s how I see these open carry idiots in the restaurants.  This is not to say I am against open carry.  A lot depends on how it’s done.  I don’t like riots, but understand there are laws against “inciting riots”.

And to add balance to the open carry, on the other side, the FBI was worried more about ecoterrorism not too long ago..  (6)  And for any who want to look at common causes in mass shooters (7) good luck to you.  Myself, I know a few “crazy” people.  Might fit the description myself.  I don’t know any crazy, hate the world & want some sort of revenge people.  My kind of crazy hope you get bald & fat sooner that we do….

 

 

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Comments

  1. “Government is the potent omnipresent teacher,” observed Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, who mistakenly believed that government’s moral influence can sometimes be positive.

    “For good or ill it teaches the whole people by example.
    Crime is contagious.
    If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself….
    To declare that the end justifies the means – to declare that the government may commit crimes – would bring terrible retribution.”

  2. gmanfortruth says:

    😎

  3. Sedgewick says:

    When the state does not allow an effective means for The People to resolve grievances, it provokes violence. Because the state is inherently violent, if there are no practical means to peacefully resolve issues, the logical progression is to meet violence with violence.

    The People are clear in voicing dissatisfaction, yet government blatantly continues. The government completely ignores The People. The People still vote and pay taxes and engage in all the systems that enslave them.

    (Your progeny will be completely enslaved if this continues.)

    The antidote is for the masses to unite amongst each other and disengage from the current divisive systems, peacefully refuse to cooperate, ..along with implementation of alternative systems.

    People are still divided and conquered, complacent to and dependent upon the true enemy; their masters.

    • WE will see much more anti-government stuff happening as Our Federal Govt continues to act lawlessly, take away Rights, drown us in debt and then misspending the money on BS. Each one should be arrested and tried for treason, who ever is found not guilty is free to go home. The only true way to end this govt power issue is to begin defunding the various governments and agencies acting against the people. It is a peaceful way to end the abuse of power. Put the power, and the guns in the hands of the law abiding citizens. Disarm all Federal agencies and end the use of SWAT teams. Let the people take care of the criminals, it will be faster and work much better.

      On the subject of the illegal immigrant kids coming here. It won’t take long for the Left to whine about saving the kids, and it will happen. Obama is simply applying the Cliven-Pivan theory. It will work, at the expense of taxpayers. I think it’s time to pass a law that only Democrats pay for the immigrant issues and all others are exempt. Snatch another 10% in taxes of all Registered Democrats for the aid of immigrants who have come here illegally. 🙂

      • Sedgewick says:

        You cannot comply with the rules of a system or any part of it to defeat it. You have to fully disengage. Starve it and replace it.

        …or wreck it.

  4. CBS This Morning

    June 11, 2014

    7:00 a.m. Eastern

    NORAH O’DONNELL: And President Obama loses his patience after another deadly school shooting.

    7:13 a.m. Eastern

    CHARLIE ROSE: There have been at least 74 school shootings in the United States since Newtown, Connecticut 18 months ago. One gun control group is keeping count. During an online chat, after the Oregon shooting President Obama said “we should be ashamed of that.”

    BARACK OBAMA: We’re the only developed country on Earth where this happens, and it happens now once a week. The country has to do some soul-searching about this. This is becoming the norm and we take it for granted in ways that as a parent are terrifying to me.

    ROSE: The president also admitted his effort to pass stronger gun laws had failed. He said change will only be possible when the public demands it.

    Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeffrey-meyer/2014/06/11/networks-promote-president-obama-saying-america-should-be-ashamed-fol#ixzz34LxXGFQr

    First thing, the 74 school shootings includes suicides that occurred after hours. I think the real shootings are enough without false numbers mixed in. Second, the problem is we disagree on how to resolve the shootings. There are 20,000 gun laws on the books. Seems like mass murders don’t reat those books, so a different approach is called for.

    How about if all the federal agencies that are now armed including the EPA & Postal Service spent some time protecting our schools? Instead of buying anti-mine tanks from Homeland Security, maybe that money should go to school safety, including armed security. And if there isn’t enough funding, maybe it’s because the President has different priorities like refurbishing embassies and researching prostitutes in China….

    • gmanfortruth says:

      Get Government completely out of people’s business, attack big pharma and get rid of bad vaccines, get fluoride , a poison, out of water systems, stop feeding our kids bad drugs for mental illness that makes them violent and let people be responsible for their lives. End the lifelong welfare state, get government out of the market and make it free.

      That’s a good start Obama, you idiot’

  5. http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/09/cut-psycho-maniac-shootings-by-half/

    America has always been bristling with guns. Always. You used to be able to buy guns through the mail from ads in comics. It’s true. I saw them when I was a kid. Guns were sold mail order by Sears, and cash-and-carry at hardware stores. Guns are much much harder to get these days (except in ghettos). http://www.gunlaws.com/GunshotDemographics.htm So it can’t be the availability at all, that’s decreased. Changing that — the left’s battle cry — only inflames owners and freedom advocates. It’s something else. It’s…

    “Why are people exploding in public and going on killing sprees with knives, guns, cars, even poison?”

    That’s the question we have to answer.

    We have heard the answers but we, especially the political left, don’t like hearing them, and reject them or disclaim them:

    The increasing coarseness of society in general.

    The constant drumbeat of acceptable mass murder in mass-market entertainment.

    The constant murders on TV at night. The promotion of copy-cat murder.

    Advertisement of psychotic murder in the so-called “news” media.

    The glorification of the perpetrators.

    The so-called “games” sold to kids to train them in how it’s done, for home and portable use.

    The removal of religious morality in public that provided a yardstick.

    Scolding people for such immoral thoughts and behavior.

    The lack of father figures in homes.

    The broken homes from government dependence programs.

    The failure to discipline children.

    Punishment by the state for disciplining children, at home and in schools.

    Indiscriminate drugging using powerful psychotropic agents.

    This is a partial list.

    Did I mention any you haven’t already heard a bazillion times? Did you reject them all mentally, or did you embrace the list? Did you mentally fall back on the media’s anti-rights mantra, we need to do something already — like background checks…

  6. Don’t forget the “diverse” society in which we live. The society cannot absorb the new immigrants who are made comfortable by the society. Think about the polyglot place the big cities used to be at the turn of the last century. NYC boasts today of 120 languages. It was at least that back then but the difference was an expectation that you would learn our native tongue (English). The two world wars probably accelerated our “homogenization”. You, as a Irish Catholic can be brought up to hate Jews or Italians or Polacks but if you live, train and fight with them, it is awfully hard to maintain that bias.

    This insane current influx of Children is going to drive your crime numbers through the roof in a few years. Unsupervised kids raising kids. The gang potential is better than ever before. I see investing in MS-13 stock as a wise investment indeed.

    • More irrational insanity.

      As analogized previously (eugenics), you merely make empty claims about immigrants. The VAST majority of immigrants have nothing to do with an increase in crime.

      The increase in crime is due to actions, such as you profess, which merely marginalizes the group to the fringe where crime does become practically their only option.

      You and your ilk create what you fear.

      • Actually BF, I think he is going to be closer. I am boots on the ground down here and see what is happening. These children are NOT immigrants by definition. They are not coming here to seek better living or working conditions…they are not old enough. They are not even refugees, given the way they are coming here. They are not even victims…at least not of our society. They are interlopers and illegals trying to illegally gain entrance to the United States by nefarious means. The fact that they are children makes no difference. I do not care that they are children. What I do care about is the way that we are treating them and what we are doing to them. We are not even humane am I am not sure we should be. The Mexican Army rapes them, sodomizes them, forces some into child labor and prostitution and the Mexican government, our so called civil neighbor is the culprit. They make money transporting them to the United States and selling the girls as whores. The Mexican Immigration accepts payoffs as does our own Federal Immigration service on the border.

        At Fort Hood, Texas, we have three barracks full of these children in which the oldest is 16 and the youngest is 5. Most are alone, not even a brother or sister. They are carrying cards written in English, no doubt printed by Obama’s administration, trying to get them here under illegal and false promise. We have been trying to get the word out for a year and finally have done it where people now believe what is going on. The objective is to have them treated as refugees and have the parents join them.

        We have NOT accepted them with open arms. We have put them in interment camps worse that the Japanese during WWII. They have no clothes, no food, no money………..nothing. But when they get here, all of a sudden they have lawyers provided by the government. These children need to be sent home….back to their home. They are ill with diseases that we have eradicated. So now, we are putting them on buses and airplanes and sending them to Republican enclaves and set loose upon society to fend for themselves knowing that we will not let children starve in the streets as they do in Mexico and Central America.

        It will turn to crime. It will turn to theft. It will turn to chaos. I have already seen it and experienced it. It is real and unless we put a true immigration reform in place that includes border security and closing it down….it will continue.

        • I’ve given up on predicting what the American people will do-although these days I’m not sure much is actually up to the American, but one would think that this situation would show the dangers of having an open border policy.

          • You have no idea how bad it is down here…and among these, Mexico is intentionally emptying its jails of hardened criminals and bringing them to the border,,,,,,and people want to think that Mexico is our friend.

            • Our policy now, through this administration, is an open door policy and it is creating havoc,,,,,disease, crime, extortion…all coming with them.

            • When you create conditions so onerous upon free people that only those desperate with nothing to lose will take the risk, those are the ones you get.

              You are creating what you fear.

          • Just a short year ago, they were assuring us the numbers had been halved. That people were returning home and that the border was secure.

          • V.H.

            Nonsense.

            History proves that those that open their borders prosper and grow spectacularly.

            It also show those that become xenophobic are overwhelmed and swept away.

        • “We have NOT accepted them with open arms.”

          As I said, you create what you fear.

      • Personally, you don’t know shit about the subject. Not mad here, not at all but you really ought to check out some statistics as to who is in jail before you shoot off your mouth. Then again, you probably think that they should not be in jail because many of the things they are there for are “victimless” crimes like drug dealing.

        • You’re right, you know shit.

          YOU should check out who is in the jails. By your irrational ideas, you create the very thing you fear.

          Using violence on free men to obtain an outcome ALWAYS ends with the opposite of what you want.

          You want to stop free men because you are afraid, so you end up facing men who are not at all afraid of you.

          You want to stop men seeking work at some line on the map, so the only ones who cross the map do not care about your rights or freedom – since YOU HAVE ALREADY SHOWN YOU DON’T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS EITHER.

  7. Sedgewick says:
  8. Sedgewick says:
  9. Sedgewick says:
    • I have nothing good to say about this guy. Despite being a Marine Corps Officer during Korea, when finally posted to Korea, according to Jim Brady the author, when on a stop over in Okinawa with Brady, he started making phone calls and used clout to stay there and not deploy. Probably became laundry and morale officer.

  10. Sedgewick says:
  11. The over-the-top rhetoric – like the Clive Bundy stuff – will cause some people to go over-the-edge.

    I mentioned this kind of stuff a few years ago – the night BEFORE another shooting…

    So much for “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”…

    G-Man, your “multiple shooter conspiracy” has finally come true.

    Jerad Miller’s Facebook post before going to Bundy’s:

    I will be supporting Clive Bundy and his family from Federal Government slaughter. This is the next Waco! His ranch is under seige right now! The federal gov is stealing his cattle! Arresting his family and beating on them! We must do something. I will be doing something.

    His interview with a reporter while at Bundy’s:

    “I feel sorry for any federal agents that want to come in here and try to push us around or anything like that. I really don’t want violence toward them, but if they’re gonna come bring violence to us, if that’s the language they want to speak, we’ll learn it.”

    I think he already knew “the language”.

    His Facebook post after returning from Bundy’s:

    I was out there but they told me and my wife to leave because I am a felon. They don’t seem to understand that they are all felons now for intimidating law enforcement with deadly weapons. So don’t tell you that they need people. We sold everything we had to buy supplies and quit our jobs to be there 24/7. How dare you ask for help and shun us dedicated patriots.

    They sold everything and quite their jobs? Seriously?

    I wonder if being kicked off the Bundy Ranch pushed them over the edge?

    More here:
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/jerad-amanda-miller-las-vegas-shooting-cliven-bundy-anti-government

    Sounds like Jerad and Amanda Miller would fit right in at SUFA.

    • This is the kind of stuff that makes one wonder “why?”. First, they were pure cowards and not at all anything like anyone that posts at SUFA, even you. They ambushed and killed two cops, then killed another guy in Walmart by shooting him in the back. Then they killed themselves. Sorry Todd, they both had mental problems. Although I do expect more multiple person actions coming, it’s inevitable.

      Militia leaders at the Bundy ranch asked them to leave because they were radicals, not militia. Smart move on the part of militia leaders, these two would have caused big problems if allowed to stay. Felon? What was he doing with guns? It’s not legal for felons to have guns. Oh, laws only matter to the law abiding, not to those hell bent on murder.

      Let’s face it, there will be more school violence committed by mentally ill kids. There will be more mass shootings in places called “no gun zones” because they can inflict more damage. Most of these actions will be committed by the mentally ill. Mentally ill is not stupid.

      But one thing I would like to add, while you claim these two shooters would fit right in here at SUFA, I’ll go ahead a say that those who commit murder everyday in Chicago and other big cities EVERY DAY fit right in with the Democrats and their lawless leader, who can’t seem to follow laws very well. 🙂

  12. @Black Flag, This whole immigrant child issue doesn’t appear to be for humanitarian reasons, but rather a US government induced action. The expectation for immigrant children was around 6200, but now that expectation is 90,000 with next year being over 104,000.

    There are no wars down South. Genocide is not occurring. So now the big question we should all be asking, what to do? Who is going to pay for the food, medicine and housing? Who is responsible for the sudden increase in child immigrants? WTF!

    It is in all of our best interest to deal with these children in a humane manner. FEMA camps isn’t the answer, but the only solution it seems at the moment. Immigration is a non-issue in my neck of the woods. My neighbor up the road is a Mexican immigrant, great guy, great father and great husband. He fits right in with those typical in this rural area, hard working and caring for his neighbors. With that said, it’s easy to see why I’m not against immigration at all.

    IMHO, we are seeing Obama use the Cloward-Piven theory to overwhelm the State systems, it appears to be in Republican States, to force amnesty. So, in effect, these children suffering are indeed suffering at the hands of the Democrats, who don’t care about them, except for their votes. What shamefulness that is once again being displayed by this out of control government. They should all be arrested and tried for crimes and misdemeanors and/or treason. This regime is the true exercise of evil, on so many levels, it can’t be denied.

    • If you’re a free marketeer or freedom thinker, you’ll tend to endorse statements like these:

      I, and not the government, should get to decide who will be a guest in my home.
      I, and not the government, should get to decide who I’ll hire to mow my lawn.
      I, and not the government, should get to decide who I’ll go running with this evening.
      I, and not the government, should get to decide whose businesses I’ll patronize, who I’ll serve as customers in my own business, and who I can sell my house to.

      Strict controls on immigration are, of course, antithetical to all these propositions because their entire purpose is to exclude a large class of people from visiting my home, mowing my lawn, joining me for an evening run, selling me products, buying my products, and generally being, at my discretion, a part of my life.

      • I’m basically with you on the issue. We are not seeing what I call, normal immigration at this moment. The current child issue isn’t normal by any stretch, at least in my lifetime. Overall, we are a country of immigrants, including my ancestors who came from Scotland in the early 1700’s. We should all want immigration. We should not accept the welfare system that is in place. Take the latter away, the problem of “too many” immigrants goes away with it. I don’t think you want freeloaders any more than I do. 🙂

    • “Who is going to pay?”

      Simple. The ones who are responsible to pay.
      I doubt its you or me.

      The ever-growing challenge of those who restrict immigration is that by demanding government make such restrictions, they create a class that by that demand, called “illegals” cannot care for themselves – so the demand upon government to do something about that too.

      But people like SK do not see this loop. Every time SK and his ilk push this loop, his own freedom diminishes as government grows

      SK wants his freedom yet works damn hard destroying it every day.

      • From what I have been reading and following over the years, many of the “illegals” are here for the government cookies, because of the government cookies, and will only grow because of the government cookies. Our typical hard working, wanting a better life immigrant has been dealing with this “bad example” for a long time. Conclusion: The fault lies with government.

        • Does not matter according to our friend. They have the “freedom” to come here any damn time they want for any damn reason and you are xenophobic if you disagree. Laws are both a restriction on their freedom and “violence” upon them. I’ d personally like to drive a few busloads of MS-13 members, preferably the non-violent ones to Flag’s doorstep where they could run with him and sell him “products”. They are very good at the latter, selling products.

          • I do not recall immigration being a major issue when I was younger. Seems it’s only come about in the last 20 years or so, and it coincides with the Liberal Free Cookie Programs. It’s not hard to see where the problem lies.

            • I sure that Black Flag understands that resources can get overwhelmed until it collapses under it’s own weight. I don’t think anyone is anti-immigration here. I do believe that many, like me, are anti-welfare. It’s the latter that has caused the problems with immigration. But let’s not fool ourselves, Democrats want more of their enslaved populations in inner cities to vote for them and their free cookie offers. Adding another 11 million plus to their voter roles and slavery system could go a long way for them, until they run out of other peoples money.

              • In all things that cannot go on, they eventually stop.

                But this is not the tactic for its consequence is a severe drop in the living standards of everyone and a continuation of the loss of freedom for everyone.

                SK cannot comprehend the evil he does upon himself.

            • I just hope these kids are not left to suffer like those in the Superdome after Katrina.

              • Sedgewick says:

                I agree.

                Whatever the problem, I think we can all agree the children are victims. Because they are sitting in horrible conditions, it is an immediate problem.

                Is there not something that can be done? Are there not enough charitable people and organizations in the position to offer assistance? Clothes, food, and nurses with medical equipment would be a good start.

            • No, it had nothing to do with that at all.

              As the world became more competitive and prosperous and globalized economically, a few brainless souls, along the ilks of SK, whose high over-paid wages came under threat of more economical resources.

              In fear of losing their over-paid positions to more adept and economic people, they created substantial barriers whose intention was to create a trade restriction on labor.

              Like all things that require violence on free men to enforce, the unintended consequence was to create barriers that only the most desperate would attempt – and succeed – in breaching.

              These brainless souls then reviewing the consequences of their own making accelerate their own irrational policies even more, believing more of the same thing that caused the consequences will reduce the consequences.

          • SK
            “Does not matter according to our friend. They have the “freedom” to come here any damn time they want for any damn reason and you are xenophobic if you disagree.”

            Why should it matter TO YOU??
            They do nothing to you, but you damn want to do something to them – it is YOU who is absolutely xenophobic, irrational fear of others.

            Laws that restrict free men seeking their own peaceful purpose IS VIOLENCE.

            You make up stories of boogymen to disguise your imposition on the peace of others. Typical brain farting.

            • Madison warned 200 years ago about SK and his ilk:

              “ The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding”

            • Cause I have ducked their bullets? Good enough for you?

              • SK,

                As already pointed out, but you cannot seem to comprehend, by preventing the peaceful free men from working, you only attract those that have no problems shooting bullets at you.

                Your demands of preventing peaceful people filters out peaceful people.

                You then stagger in shock that all you get is violent people.

              • I do not know why I bother. There are plenty of folks here who are decent and honest and obey the rules and there are plenty who do not. You do not believe in law, any law except your own.

                You do not know me yet you have the temerity and consummate gall to judge me.

                Frankly, I don’t think you are losing it, I think you have lost it. The ship has sailed quite a while ago. Shall we discuss 9-11 again?

              • SK,
                “I do not know why I bother. There are plenty of folks here who are decent and honest and obey the rules and there are plenty who do not. You do not believe in law, any law except your own.”

                You pretend that “the rules” are just and Right. Just because some guy in a funny hat makes a rule, does not make that a rule to obey. You believe it does because, sir, YOU HAVE NO PRINCIPLES to measure such things. You are an obedient robot.

                There are plenty of “those violent folks” with or without immigration – you pretend an issue with a small group to be the cause of issue – yet, it still exists one way or the other.

                You create what you fear, SK, hence, you will always be a xenophobe.

      • “you are xenophobic if you disagree.”

        You name caller! I disagree too! Call me something hard to pronounce? I think a massive influx of children, especially without their parents will strain our systems. Sending them only to a few, Republican border states will undoubtedly overload them. At the least, they should be spread through many states to ease the burden. But kids don’t work, so are a tax burden, not source of revenue. What child care system is prepared for an overnight influx of 100,000? There are consequences to all actions. Some good consequences, some not so good…..

        http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/crime/miami-in-1980-was-a-place-under-siege-by-drug-traffickers

        • LOI,

          You create what you fear.

          By preventing people from working, you force them to begging.

          You then complain they are begging, so you continue to advance the demand to prevent these people from working.

          You are stuck in a feedback loop that will end with your own impoverishment.

        • Why, if I may ask, do you even want to keep them here?

          • Because they are human beings with exactly the same rights you have and I have.

            What human right do you claim you have that they do not have?

            • The right to be on this side of the border? Look, I think I have the “right” to your house. So, you have until 0900 hours to get the hell out. I intend to move my 22 newly minted Mexican Foster children in. That sir, is a human right!

              • That is not a human right, SK.

                Obviously, you do not know much about human rights – which is no surprise, actually, since you so easily advocate the destruction of such.

            • Does it make you feel superior to proclaim that you are the only good person who happens to care about other people? In all your talk about man’s rights -when it comes to this issue you seem to forget about man’s responsibility. Now like it or not-this world is separated into different Countries and it’s gonna stay that way-so as sorry as I feel for all these people they need to fight for their freedom within their own Countries that is their responsibility. Immigration, helping as many as we can-wonderful-I’m all for it-but at some point BF-helping others becomes a matter of irresponsibility if it interferes with taking care of your own.

              • First, I do not proclaim “good/bad” – that is your irrational understanding.
                Second, I do not claim “free immigration” means I “care” about people. Again, irrational emotionalism is your weakness, not mine.

                I declare adherence to principle of HUMAN RIGHTS. Period.

              • Do you BF-I happen to believe that as a citizen of this Country I have part ownership in this land-you seem more than willing to take my rights and all the other citizens rights away from us, simply because you seem to believe that you don’t have to acknowledge our ownership.

              • V.H.
                “I happen to believe that as a citizen of this Country I have part ownership in this land”

                You can also believe in fairies and fire-breathing dragons, but that doesn’t make it true, nor the claims about such fantasies a truth.

                First, you are not an owner of “this land”. Ownership is control, and you have absolutely no control over “this land”.

                Second, citizenship provides no greater human rights then non-citizenship. You get GOVERNMENT PRIVILEGES which may or may not exist at any point in time by decree.

                TO believe that such government decree makes you superior in your human rights vs the guy next door is perverse.

  13. Sedgewick says:

    https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/bedrosian-doubles-down-va-county-supervisor-maintains-stance-that-meetings

    “We’re totally against it,” Peters said. “I am Christian, and I don’t hide behind that, but I’m both offended and it bothers me that he’s misrepresenting the Christian community.”

  14. Sedgewick says:
  15. Sedgewick says:
  16. Sedgewick says:
  17. Sedgewick says:

    Taxing Situation: When Will The IRS Put A Stop To Blatant Partisan Politicking In Houses Of Worship?

    https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/taxing-situation-when-will-the-irs-put-a-stop-to-blatant-partisan

  18. Sedgewick says:
  19. @Black Flag, What do you suggest we should do to fix the current issue’s? Harping on what old dead people did doesn’t fix anything. The immigration laws will NEVER be repealed, although they may get changed. Do you agree with Amnesty for the 11 or so million? Should violent criminals be allowed on our streets? Who’s gonna take care of all these kids till they can get a job and live on their own? How do we deal with those who become violent criminals? I see your position and how it came to be, but that don’t fix today’s issues.

      • An organization of former Border Patrol agents Wednesday charged that the federal government, under the administration of President Obama, is deliberately arranging for a flood of immigrant children to arrive in America for political purposes.

        “This is not a humanitarian crisis. It is a predictable, orchestrated and contrived assault on the compassionate side of Americans by her political leaders that knowingly puts minor illegal alien children at risk for purely political purposes,” said the statement released by the National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers.

        “Certainly, we are not gullible enough to believe that thousands of unaccompanied minor Central American children came to America without the encouragement, aid and assistance of the United States government,” the officers said.

        WND exclusive: Congressmen say Obama “attempt to flood border” part of infamous socialist “Cloward-Piven” strategy

        “Anyone that has taken two six- to seven-year-old children to an amusement park can only imagine the problems associated with bringing thousands of unaccompanied children that age up through Mexico and into the United States.”

    • Are there no workhouses?

    • Gman
      “The immigration laws will NEVER be repealed”
      Why not?

      “Do you agree with Amnesty for the 11 or so million?”

      What do you think happens when you stop beating up peaceful people?

      “Should violent criminals be allowed on our streets?”

      IF there were no Mexicans, would you still allow violent White-man criminals on the streets?
      If No, then why would you suddenly allow violent non-White-man criminals on the streets?

      In other words, these things -Amnesty and Violent criminals- ARE NOT conjoined. They are independent issues.

      “Who’s gonna take care of all these kids till they can get a job and live on their own?”

      Do you believe it will take years, months or weeks for a man to get a job? Believe me, it will take these people a day because unlike the vast majority of Americans, they are willing to work at hard jobs cheaply.

      “How do we deal with those who become violent criminals?”

      How do you deal with violent criminals now? Why does this suddenly change?

      • gmanfortruth says:

        These kids I speak of are mostly not of legal age to work, have no place to live and only the clothes on their backs. Forget Bout the 11 million for a moment. I’m speaking of this tremendous Influx of children coming across the border. It’s gonna reach 60 K. They need cared for. Back to the question, who’s gonna care for these kids till they reach maturity. ?

        I know how to solve most of the immigrant problems that people harp on, stop the free cookies . I have no problems with those who can work snd support themselves. You should know that of me by now. My concern are these children. Obama has started a serious humanitarian issue. I would consider being a foster parent for a teen, at least I could help them learn some things and get a decent education. I doubt the law would allow such a thing though, the govt to dumb to be real

        • 1st, these kids exist in that condition because of the irrational mindset of prohibiting their parents.

          Stop prohibiting their parents, and the kid issue self-solves.

          • gmanfortruth says:

            Join mi the real world, it ain’t happening snd you and I have no say in the matter. Stop being a broken record by stating the obvious, which? The obvious is that your obvious solution isn’t going to happen, let’s try for a realistic answer now!

            • Gman,

              What a strange response.

              Declare the solution is unachievable, whilst equally declaring that the alternative -which is the root cause of the problem- must continue.

              You are “up is down”

              No, the solution IS to stop beating up peaceful people in search of work. Pretending “this can’t happen” is why it isn’t happening. Stop pretending. All it takes is to “stop”.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Flag, our immigration issue isn’t about people who want to work, which is why your reasoning fails, there come for the free government cookies. This where the problem lies , not in employing people in jobs Anericans don’t want, which at best is hogwash. It’s the free cookies, get rid of that and we won’t have an immigration problem. End the war on drugs and it would end much violence as well , I’m not upside down, you are stuck on the wrong problem, although your solution would be fine, less the welfare and drug war! 🙂

              • Gman,

                “Flag, our immigration issue isn’t about people who want to work, which is why your reasoning fails, there come for the free government cookies.”

                While some may, this is not the massive dominant case – the vast majority come for opportunity.

                The solution is merely to not provide cookies to them.

            • Stating the obvious-do you really believe his solution is the correct one?
              First off BF is not going to work on a solution to fix the current problem based the reality of the current situation because BF refuses to discuss fixes that would necessitate the involvement of the government. 🙂

              Now lets look at the situation- BF’s solution, if it would ever work, would only work if every other Country in the world opened their borders too, but that isn’t going to happen. So people who wanted to leave all the third world countries would come here because they have no where else to go. Look at what’s happening right now to get just a small sample of the problems that would arise.

              But lets pretend it worked economically, can you imagine the problems that would arise when the cultural wars began.

              • V.H.
                “Stating the obvious-do you really believe his solution is the correct one?”

                As I already pointed out, history absolutely demonstrates the case.

                In counter point, reverse the position, do you believe increasing the violence on peaceful free men will improve your situation?

                “First off BF is not going to work on a solution to fix the current problem based the reality of the current situation because BF refuses to discuss fixes that would necessitate the involvement of the government. :)”

                You have a strange brain.

                You are bleeding because you are cutting yourself with a knife. You want the bleeding to stop, so someone says “Stop cutting yourself”. You do not think this is a real solution, so you want another one so you can keep cutting youself.

                “Now lets look at the situation- BF’s solution, if it would ever work, would only work if every other Country in the world opened their borders too”,

                Completely not required.

                IN FACT it would be absolutely gold if no other country opened their borders. The flood of productive workers would be “one way”, and you would be far more wealthier then any other country.

                Adam Smith wrote about this in his “Wealth of Nations” – but you do not study such things.

                People back then repeated the same irrational statement “if we are the only ones who opens our border to free trade, and no one else does, they will crush our economy!”

                Yet, Britain did anyway – and in less than a generation commanded 90% of the world’s wealth.

                You do not know such things, or why such things happen that way. You are a centrist and Statist and live in fear.

              • I have a strange brain, Ha ha ha-that’s a real possibility but the statement is none the less true. 🙂

              • gmanfortruth says:

                VH, your fine, don’t worry! 🙂

                @ Flag, you finally saw it, the welfare state IS the problem, not immigration. You don’t seem to be getting the info on this, that’s cool. My contention is that if we get rid of the current welfare BS, there would be no immigration issue, and your solution of open borders for workers would work . That is if the govt gets out of the way, which is the total underlying problem.

              • Gman

                “Flag, you finally saw it, the welfare state IS the problem, not immigration”

                Welfare state is a problem, but that is not the root of immigration.

                As I said above, trade restrictions on labor – that is “Immigration” – is a function of PROTECTIONISM, no less then a trade restriction on importing cars.

                Restriction on importing cars is a protectionism for indigenous car manufacturers. It allows local car manufacturers to keep artificial high prices for their cars against cheaper imports by placing duties on imports which raise their price.

                Equally, restriction on importing labor is protectionism for indigenous works. It allows local workers to keep artificially high prices for their labor against cheaper imported labor.

                This has nothing to do with the “welfare” state. This is economics. You are forced to pay more for labor then the free market would, unopposed, declare the value of that labor.

                You, as a consumer, are forced to pay more to a constituency that benefits from artificially high labor prices.

              • Further, Gman, just as trade restrictions on imports makes you poorer, Immigration restrictions make you poorer.

                You are poorer because you are forced to pay higher prices -artificially- for a good or service. Certainly this is a benefit for the other person – they are getting more wealth for poor service or poorer goods, but it reduces YOUR wealth and prosperity.

                By paying artificially higher prices, you must spend your limited capital. By spending more of that limited capital then otherwise in a free market, you have less to spend upon improving your life in other areas. Spending $20,000 for a $10,000 car only gives you the benefit of a $10,000 car – the extra $10,000 gains you nothing. Great for the car company as they need only produce a $10,000 car but get a bonus! Not great for you though.

                Same with labor.

                Immigration prohibitions MAKES ALL OF US POORER.

  20. Trying to get this up before, unsuccessfully.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html

    • First, it is economic stupidity.

      ” “When we start enforcing the law, these various businesses are, on their own, going to replace their [illegal] workforce with a legal workforce.”

      No, they don’t. This is typical of government idiots who understand nothing about how a business operates. What happens is the business stops and closes OR the cost of the goods goes up, costing everyone more money. Typical idiots who believe this nonsense are the same idiots who wonder why business are going bust and their grocery bill is so high.

      Second, what may have been a mobility constraint in the 1950’s no longer exist in 2014. To pretend a few hundred miles of dirt will stop their return to today is utterly naive.

      Third, in 1950 there was a lot of unemployed men coming home from war. There is no such condition today.

      Fourth, the economic prosperity that illegal workers has delivered today makes 1950 look medieval.

      • Yes, there are not a lot of unemployed men coming home from the war today. Sure, right, absolutely.

        Point was and is, it worked!

      • “First, it is economic stupidity.”

        So is inviting all who will come to live on entitlements they have not worked to earn or support by a government that encourages people to not work, thereby destroying it’s tax base. Said government then demonizes the wealthy to justify stealing more of their income until no one will want to work….

        The economics might work if our government wasn’t disrupting the free market on scale not seen since a world war.

        • LOI,

          Economics ALWAYS works. Disruption from the optimum – the free market – creates consequences that are not optimum.

          Further, the “entitlement” thing is a red herring.

          There are VASTLY more indigenous citizens on welfare then some set of poor Mexicans – the latter probably more deserving then the general scofflaws that are currently on such a program.

          If you believe entitlements is an issue, fix it because of internal problem and stop blaming some poor Mexican.

  21. On a wonderful new topic. I am betting it will be five days until the US Embassy in Baghdad is evacuated. Deja vu all over again!

    This of course will probably result in a huge Taliban push in Afghanistan. They were content to wait but now will figure why bother?

    Next week, Putin will take Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, Vienna and Zurich without firing a shot. It is over folks, all over.

    • The correct ending should have been “check and ,mate”. We, my generation, owe a huge apology to my children’s generation for sending them off to a war which even made Vietnam planners look good.

      Can’t wait to hear Cheney, Rumsfeld and some “spokesperson” for Bush the younger to start pointing fingers. If ever there was a need for the righteous hand of God to act this is probably it.

      • Colonel has been quiet. Really hope he is not growing his beard and putting on his fake jihad outfit to fight the bad guys. Could use some good intel here though I fear it is all over.

        http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/06/11/iraqi-official-says-authorities-determined-to-recapture-city-overrun-by/

        Now where do we put the refugees?

        • SK, this is a great question, all caused by Obama and his minions. This is unprecedented in this country! Where do we put all these kids from Mexico?

          • It is worth spending the money to send them home, back to their village. Should their home countries say no, then we declare their ambassadors persona not grata, send them packing and cut off whatever aid of any type, humanitarian, military, that we give them. The airplane ticket and taxi fare from the airport are a fraction of what these kiddies will cost us in three months of taking care of them and nothing compared to the chaos as they grow, join gangs for protection and do not assimilate (I mean, anybody ever see “Lord of the Flies”). The fact that they provide a never-ending supply of cheap labor to Black Flag and his ilk, should not, if we are Americans, mean spit. Bad enough we will have to relocate the 3 to 5 million Iraqi nationals after the NVA knocks down the Presidential Palace walls, the Helos lift off the embassy roof and start landing on the carriers in the South China sea and the boat people start pouring in……Whoopps, that was a senior moment.

            • SK
              “It is worth spending the money to send them home, back to their village”

              Not only do you waste your money doing this, you impoverish yourself doubly.

              You destroy your own wealth two-fold.

              You eliminate cheap labor, while paying for the elimination of cheap labor. Not only to you pay out of your pocket to send them away, you then pay with higher prices on your goods because you sent them away.

              You are an economic (and Human Rights) loony toon.

        • Sunni’s and Shiite’s………tribal….dates back for centuries. However, it is interesting because Iran is primarily Shia….but is partly funding Sunni’s in Iraq. The Saudi’s, pouring in most of the money, is primarily Sunni. the reason that Iran is backing the Sunni’s is because of a tacit “quid pro quo” agreement with the Saudi’s. It is regional. Watch it carefully.

          Now….watch the Kurdish very closely and watch Turkey.

          • “tacit “quid pro quo” agreement” I’m lost-what did they agree to do for each other? And what do you think the Kurdish and Turkey are going to do?

  22. @Black Flag, Your preaching to the choir my friend, I’m pro immigration 🙂 I fully understand your points, especially economically. What I’m trying to get through to you is the FACT that the Welfare State is the problem, not those who come her to work! You don’t seem to understand the amount of welfare used for illegal immigrants, ON PURPOSE! It’s apolitical issue, that is part of the big problem. Government IS the big problem, as you well know, the current immigration issue is just another ploy for political gain. Sadly, people will suffer because of……political gain, or at least the attempt to get the gain.

    This is the NOW reason to fight the Welfare State mentality, not the immigration issue. The root cause of ALL our problems is government, you need not preach to me, I get it!

    • So G, you are also ok with just anybody walking across the border, no laws, no rules?

      • No Sir, I have not said that! I have identified the problem, the government (with the Welfare State) . If we, as a nation can end the Welfare issue, along with the war on drugs, immigration will not be an issue. Our first and biggest problem is the entity that has destroyed our industrial power, along with all the jobs, that would be the Federal Govt. and their so called trade treaties. The problem starts at the top, not at our level!

        • Thank you, I thought so. Our friend is not even on the same planet with us. He does not believe in the rule of any law. He acknowledges no authority other than his own. So, while your points have been well made and are well taken by me, they have no impact on his thinking.

          • Actually, we have a Government problem, which is what Flag is all about. Our current issues are a result of government action, not immigrant action, but immigrant reaction. Shut down idiotic government, the problems will go away, all of them! 🙂

            • You don’t want to shut down all government either. You want the Jeffersonian model as I do.

            • Gman,

              You argue on the side of Milton Friedman

              He favored open immigration in principle, he opposes it when the home government runs a welfare state.

              But one of the least persuasive arguments against immigration is the one that goes “Even Milton Friedman said that you can’t have open immigration with a welfare state!”

              To respond to this argument, I paste below:

              As far as I know Friedman never qualified his passionate, powerful, and principled case for drug legalization by claiming that legalization, while desirable in principle, is unworkable (or undesirable, or impractical, or unrealistic, or whatever) in a world with a U.S. welfare state.

              But it seems to me that if Friedman genuinely believed that the existence, and likely permanence, of a welfare state in America is a strong-enough reason to empower government to do what that government otherwise ought not do – in the case of immigration, forcibly prevent people from migrating to the United States – then he should also have qualified his argument for drug legalization with the same condition; namely, in the case of drugs, forcibly prevent people from getting high by whatever peaceful means they choose.

              The fact that Friedman (again, as far as I know) never qualified his case for drug legalization with the condition that the welfare state first be rolled back suggests to me that Friedman’s case for restricting immigration (at least as that case has now come down to us in lore) is at odds with his case for drug legalization. At the least, this difference between Friedman-the-’realist’ on immigration and Friedman-the-principled-proponent-of-freedom on drugs exposes an inconsistency in his policy assessments. And so why not resolve the inconsistency in favor of more freedom rather than in favor of more government-imposed restraint?

              Almost every argument that can be marshaled to make a case for why the welfare state practically means that ‘we’ ‘must’ restrict immigration can, with few alterations, be marshaled to make a case for why the welfare state practically means that ‘we’ ‘must’ restrict people’s access to mind-altering and body-damaging narcotics. Yet, again, I’ve never read of Friedman making the latter argument – and I somehow doubt that he would have accepted it if it were offered to him as justification for continuing the ‘war on drugs.’

              If Friedman were correct about immigration and the welfare state, why not also – in addition to continuing the war on drugs – also impose high tariffs and other trade restrictions?

              Why not block all imports for the same reason?

              In other words, Gman, free trade, therefore, imposes a negative externality upon the entire society when a welfare state exists.

              That is, it is pointless to argue for a free society if the welfare state exists!

              And, while we’re at it, doesn’t the existence of the welfare state require government also to restrict which majors college students choose?

              Without a welfare state, students would be more focused on finding gainful employment after they graduate. But with a welfare state, the risk of being unemployed for long periods – or of earning very low pay for most of one’s working life – as a result of majoring in the likes of “race studies” or “dance criticism” will too often be ignored by irresponsible or lazy students, who rely upon welfare-state payments to subsidize their indulgence in majors that promise no decent monetary rewards.

              Where does the enhanced scope for government action end once we admit that government buys for itself, by illegitimately exercising power W, an indulgence for the exercise of otherwise illegitimate power R?

              I have never grasped the logic that leads to the conclusion that the illegitimate welfare state turns the otherwise illegitimate power exercised by government to interfere with freedom of movement and association (that is, open immigration) into a legitimate power.

          • SK,

            You lie
            “He does not believe in the rule of any law”

            I believe in Natural Human Law and Human Rights – the thing you attack venomously.

      • SK

        Are you ok with your neighbor walking across a city boundary, with no laws and no rules dictating if he could or could not?

        Why do you believe your buddy can do this without any legal restriction, but some guy you don’t know can’t?

    • “What I’m trying to get through to you is the FACT that the Welfare State is the problem”

      I do not dispute that the welfare state is a problem.

      I dispute that the Mexicans using the welfare state is the biggest problem. It is a minor problem.

      Show me your facts (and you can’t) that show the welfare state promotes illegal immigration.

      The number of “illegals” availing themselves of state welfare pales against locals availing themselves of the same.

  23. My turn to change the subject to rescue you guys from Black Flag.

    Fun fact regarding my little job printing election ballots:

    There are three numbering/folding lines running. Our shop prints ballots mostly for mid Michigan, a rural area overall. But we also print for Oakland County in SE Michigan. US Census stats for Oakland County for 2013 show 1.2 million population.

    Tell me why in two days my line numbered/folded 262,000 absentee ballots for Oakland County alone, another line folded 100,000. From what my untrained eye can surmise, I;ll be numbering/folding another 200,000 absentee ballots today and Saturday. That’s already over 500,000 absentee ballots for Oakland County alone. It could be many more, as I’m not sure what the other line has lined up for today.

    So the question of the day is….Is voting day becoming passe? Seems like the shift is in for absentee voting. Off I go. Have a good day everyone.

  24. A fact that may only interest me 🙂

    Since 1976, the Government has had 18 shutdowns under 6 Presidents (Excluding G.W.B.), and only one of the 6 Presidents wanted to kick wounded veterans out of War Memorials, do you really need to guess which President?

  25. @Black Flag, 2 billion taxpayer dollars to care for the immigrant kids. Yes, we are all paying, including our Great Grandkids and beyond.

    • Meaningless number unless qualified

      The US pays $395 BILLION in welfare. You complain about $2 Billion or 0.5% of the total.

      Your focus is horrifically skewed.

  26. SK……I am quiet because it makes no difference. I like to chat with BF from time to time because he has some really interesting insight. However, when I think he is wrong, as he is on the immigration issue as it currently stands, it does no good to slam one’s head against the proverbial wall. I do not spar with BF….I state my position. He states his position. We see eye to eye on several things but I also understand him pretty well. He is consistent. He has his beliefs. He is an anarchist. Live with it. Just make your point and move on…people on here are smart enough to understand both positions and make a choice…but trying to change BF is like trying to free Thor’s Hammer. Plant your seed and move on. You have done that.

    On immigration, he believes in total open borders…..no where else does this exist but he believes that any border is an “imaginary line” and the use of his definition of imaginary line creates evil. He believes that all persons are free to do what they wish and that if someone decides to violate a man made law that restricts something is violence. He is a believer in natural law. He is actually pretty simple to understand because he is consistent. I would love to play chess with him sometime.He sees the enforcement of a border as violence among free men. It is definitive in his mind. There is only one place that I see his hypocrisy….and that is if any law that restricts freedoms is evil, then he lives under the very evil he despises. He lives, right now, in an imaginary border himself….a property line. He lives with a deed of trust and he thinks he is protected. He is not. If someone crosses his property line ( an imaginary line ) I know he will justify protecting his family because of that property line. He will see it as evil and that evil can be fought with a corresponding evil. He obeys laws that are evil, in his mind. Why? Because it is survival. He does not run red lights or refuse to pay his taxes. If he sees a sign that says “do not walk on the grass”…he will not walk on the grass. He is a philosopher.

    Where we see eye to eye is on economics and the free market. We differ on some aspects of the free market system but not too far. I do not see economics as a cure all as he does and disagree there. The immigration issue is not economically driven…it is politically driven. However, where he and I both are on board is in the employer situation. Take away the free cookies and take the employer out of the hiring of illegals ( which can be economic )…..and the issue disappears. Our failure to enforce employment law…..is the main culprit. Then you provide free cookies, that they are not getting in their own country…then you promise no deportation……you will have floods of illegal entries. This is a political move and always has been. It has a specific design. This is what I believe.

    As to the children that are flooding here under Obama;s policies and past policies. I have no sympathy and no empathy. Send them back across the border to Mexico and let Mexico deal with them. Know what Mexico will do? They will exploit the female children and move the rest back to their southern border and will not accept them. I know this for fact. ABSOLUTE fact. People can lament all they want about the “poor” immigrant but it does not wash. This country, the United States does not need to be a policeman of the world nor does it need to be the mother of the world. Mexico is a culprit and is one of the most coercive and violent governments of the world. Look at the Mexican State of Chiapas and the Indian indigent population, They are usually shot on sight. Guatemala and Mexico literally hate each other and their border patrols exchange gunfire almost on a daily basis.and Belize does not accept refugees. It turns them back. That is Mexico’s Southern border.

    Immigration can be controlled and can be done correctly and people can still get here and boundaries will continue to exist and never go away.

    • Sedgewick says:

      ” As to the children that are flooding here under Obama;s policies and past policies. I have no sympathy and no empathy. Send them back across the border to Mexico and let Mexico deal with them. Know what Mexico will do? They will exploit the female children and move the rest back to their southern border and will not accept them. I know this for fact. ABSOLUTE fact. People can lament all they want about the “poor” immigrant but it does not wash. ”

      Put aside the emotional ‘save the children’ argument. It is what it is, and it is a bunch of helpless children in the USA. The US took control of, and therefore responsibility for, them. It is legally obligatory.

      They are in immediate need of nourishment, clothes, and medical attention. Before anything is done or decided upon, they need to be taken care of. The USA has plenty enough resources to accommodate, thus there is no reason not to do so.

      Not only that, but if they are as you describe, with communicable disease, then they are a potential bio-hazard to US residents. Give them medical attention while they are in a somewhat quarantined situation.

      • Understand the argument that it is children….I do not agree but that is ok. I am sure that I am a heartless bastard but there has to be a stopping place. Make it here and now. It does not matter the resources to me. Not at all…it is a matter of principle. We take care of this bunch and another will be here tomorrow….yesterday….in one day, in my A/O alone…an additional 406 children crossed. Where do you want to stop it? I also know that in the Mc Allen area, just yesterday, there were 376 children that crossed. I am sorry…it is epidemic. AND if we could take care of them, why is the administration, now caught, shipping them out without medical attention, without food and with one bottle of water.

        We know of polio cases and chicken pox that are showing up…..and a couple of cases of TB. The NORO virus is infecting hundreds of citizens.

        Where is the stopping point? OR do you feel that there even needs to be one. I say again….those of you that have these heart felt sympathies….need to see what it is like. It is terrible….but, I feel that there is a time to turn hardened. I do not like it myself…I have children and grandchildren….but there has to be a stopping point somewhere. I say it is now.

        This is, in my opinion, a political move and these children are pawns and the American people are being played for suckers.

    • Col. You get 26 brownie points for mentioning the Kurds and Turks. Taking us out of it for the moment, THAT will be interesting. If I am correct, there is a strong Kurdish presence in adjacent geographic regions of Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Still worried though about mushy liberals and neo-cons who will have “sympathy” for the plight of refugees. We already have this stupid bill on the table in DC about Afghan refugees. Maybe in a thousand years but these folks ain’t ready fro prime time. The Viets, they were adaptable, these folks? Must be too much intermarriage or something.

    • “On immigration, he believes in total open borders…..no where else does ”

      No true – any person who believe in Freedom and Human Rights believes in Open Borders.

      See my arguments and quotes throughout.

      It is utterly illogical to claim that a man walking across one line, called a “city line” or a “state line” is ok, and another line is not.

    • D13,

      You do not even blink an eye if a criminal moves from New York to Houston. You shrug saying “we will deal with him there”

      You do not even blink an eye if an impoverished family moves from Kansas to Texas looking for work. You shrug and say “good luck and Godspeed”.

      All crossing some bizarre line on the map.

      But “this line” you go bizarrely twisted. Suddenly it becomes existential = the whole of society is at risk.

      You have no argument that provides why one line is a shrug and another is such a threat.

    • “that is if any law that restricts freedoms is evil, then he lives under the very evil he despises.”

      D13,

      Of course I do. I am but one man.

      But living under evil does not make one agree to evil. An honest man who sees evil calls it out wherever it lives.

      I do not benefit from evil – you may, so you defend it.

    • D13,

      You fall into the classic fallacy of anthropomorphising the State to be the same as the Individual.

      You believe the State is merely an expression of an individual, yet the State is no such thing.

      The State can murder with impunity, you cannot.
      The State can steal with impunity, you cannot.

      As the most basic fundamentals, the State is not the Individual – in action nor in Rights.

      But your argument demands that the State is the Individual. Thus, your failure.

    • ” The immigration issue is not economically driven…it is politically driven”

      D13,

      Absolutely WRONG.

      It is utterly economically driven. It was and always had been driven by economic activism of protecting embedded, over-paid workers

      You fail, once again, at understanding the roots of every immigration law in existence in any nation on earth, that is, to protect indigenous workers from more economical workers

    • “Take away the free cookies and take the employer out of the hiring of illegals ( which can be economic )…..and the issue disappears.”

      D13,

      Absolutely false.

      As provided by Gman, the impact is so small as to be utterly irrelevant – 0.5%

      ZERO POINT FIVE PERCENT.

      If you believe 0.5% is so significant to warrant the destruction of human rights, you scare me.

    • D13,

      More on the 0.5%

      Of course, you do not at all calculate the massive benefit of cheap labor upon your wealth.

      If some car manufacturer would lower their costs and thus lower the price of their car to your benefit, you cheer.

      But if it is a cost of labor, you go bizarrely twisted. Suddenly, a lowering of your cost of goods, you think this is a destruction of your wealth

      The economic theory you hold is so bizarrely upside down and twisted, there is no telling what nonsense you will provide.

    • D13,

      To a point, you make your argument utterly devoid of any principle, merely empty emotional rhetoric that plays on the emotions of others a call:

      “…by destroying their right, your rights and prosperity will improve…”

      It is powerful because it is lie that plays upon the empty heads who do not understand they are destroying themselves when they attack the peace of others.

  27. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    Time to change the subject some more:

    So, we meddled around in Iraq (which wasn’t a good idea to begin with), and then, instead of leaving a security force in place after our meddling, we simply up and left rather abruptly. Now, ISIS is running rampant, and has taken Tikrit and Mosul, and will most likely take Baghdad.

    First, we can blame Bush for going into Iraq in the first place, and then we can blame Obama for simply cutting and running when he deemed it politically expedient.

    So, what is the “best course” now? By the time the current administration decides to “do something”, this will have already been a fait accomplis, and Baghdad will have fallen to ISIS along with Tikrit and Mosul.

    Of course, if Romney had been in office instead, we would probably already have bombed the hell out of Iraq and been sending troops back in there “on the ground” already – which may well be a much worse option than what Obama is currently doing – which is NOTHING.

    IMO, nothing may well be the best thing we can do at this point, although I am sure that there are at least a fair percentage here that will disagree….

    • Peter…look above. I answered Sk along these lines.

    • This too talks about the actions forcing Iran to get involved-I still don’t understand why?
      Also looks like Iraq would have been smart to accept the Kurds with open arms-seems they are a tough bunch of people.

      Iraqi Kurds seize Kirkuk as army flees
      posted at 8:01 am on June 12, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

      Share on Facebook 60
      173 SHARES

      How bad has the situation in Iraq become? The city of Kirkuk has long been a point of contention between the Kurds and the Iraqi government. Saddam Hussein expelled the Kurds from the city, and ever since the Kurds have laid claim to it — and its oil resources. The new government in Iraq similarly refused to cede the territory to the Kurds, and for the same reason.

      Now they’ve run away from Kirkuk, and the Kurds have it again by default as the Iraqi army collapses:

      Iraqi Kurdish forces say they have taken full control of the northern oil city of Kirkuk as the army flees before an Islamist offensive nearby.

      “The whole of Kirkuk has fallen into the hands of peshmerga,” Kurdish spokesman Jabbar Yawar told Reuters. “No Iraq army remains in Kirkuk now.”

      Kurdish fighters are seen as a bulwark against Sunni Muslim insurgents. …

      Under Saddam Hussein’s programme of “Arabisation”, Kurds were driven from Kirkuk and replaced with settlers from the south, and the Iraqi government continues to assert control over nearby oilfields, with the backing from the local Turkmen community.

      That won’t last long now, as the Iraqis still fiddle while Anbar and Nineveh burn. The parliament has postponed a vote on Nouri al-Maliki’s declaration of emergency, which delays any cohesive response. They can’t delay for much longer before ISIS comes knocking on their doors in Baghdad:

      Insurgents inspired by al-Qaeda rapidly pressed toward Baghdad on Wednesday, confronting little resistance from Iraq’s collapsing security forces and expanding an arc of control that now includes a wide swath of the country.

      By nightfall, the militants had reached the flash-point city of Samarra, just 70 miles outside Baghdad, after having first seized Tikrit, Saddam Hussein’s home town, and other cities while pressing southward from Mosul. …

      It appeared that the militants were facing more robust resistance as they moved south, where Iraq’s Shiites have a stronger presence. But several experts said it would be wrong to assume that heavily fortified Baghdad, with its large Shiite population and concentration of elite forces, could easily fend off an ISIS attack.

      On Thursday, the militant group vowed to march on to Baghdad . A spokesman for the Islamic State of Iran and the Levant says the group has old scores to settle with the Shiite-led government in Baghdad, the Associated Press reported.

      The spokesman, Abu Mohammed al-Adnani, also threatened that ISIL fighters will take the southern Iraqi Shiite cities of Karbala and Najaf, which hold two of the holiest shrines for Shiite Muslims. The statement, which could not be independently verified, came in an audio posting Thursday on militant Web sites commonly used by the group, the AP said.

      The Peshmerga will hold off ISIS in the north, at least for a while. The BBC notes that ISIS has bypassed the Kurdish areas for fear of the well-seasoned Peshmerga, who aren’t going to run in the face of an inferior force of Sunni terrorists. The ISIS move toward the Shi’ite cities might end up backfiring, though, as it will encourage Iran to come to Maliki’s rescue and turn all of Iraq into a battlefield. In that scenario, the US will lose all influence and power in Iraq, and perhaps throughout the entire region as the other states start cutting deals with Tehran or lining up against it in the ground war.

      This is turning into a rout, and Iraq is getting dismembered as we watch. Unless the West intervenes in a big way soon, it won’t be long before we have to start evacuating from that large, expensive US embassy — and we get another iconic image of the last chopper to leave Saigon, er, Baghdad.

      http://hotair.com/archives/2014/06/12/iraqi-kurds-seize-kirkuk-as-army-flees/

      • VH……you have to understand the region. NO ONE likes the Kurdish….not the Shia, not the Sunni’s, not the Baath….none. The Kurds like no one but they are a tough bunch. No one will go in to try to get rid of them. The only way that Hussein did was gas them. He gassed hundreds if not thousands.

        There is a small bunch in Iran….but not very many. Most are in Iran and Turkey and Turkey does not like them. There is a large enough Kurdish population in the old Baltic States so Turkey walks very softly.

        Iraq will fall.

  28. Isn’t it amazing how a psychiatric report from the Coast guard “suddenly” showed up on Bergdhal…..now, his “disappearance” from his unit is going to be psychiatric and that Obama’s deal was…….humanitarian. Unbelievable.

    • You gotta admit the guys actions don’t make it hard to believe he’s bat crap crazy.

    • Obama will ensure, as CnC that no charges are filed on Bergdahl. He will get his promotion, his back pay and all the benefits. Obama’s name is in such poor shape, he couldn’t let this kid gets the court date he deserves and get convicted of desertion (which cost American lives) and/or treason (which may have also cost American lives).

      This clown should be an example as to WHO NEVER EVER to vote for as President again.

    • Remember the other sage one? Wanna bet a cease fire & lines get drawn on a map?

      http://goingglobaleastmeetswest.blogspot.com/2014/01/iraq-three-state-solution-biden-seeks.html

      • PeterB in Indianapolis says:

        The only way there will be a cease-fire is if it is brokered by either Iran or Saudi Arabia (most likely Iran).

        Our “illustrious” Secretary of State” has no influence whatsoever in the region and will be laughed at if he attempts to start “negotiations” of any kind….

        • First let me say Obama was 100% right to withdraw from Iraq. The terms they were demanding that would subject our troops to civil arrest were DOA. In a country rife with corruption and looking to shift into a civil war, we could not be there as peacekeepers or for training without guaranteed protection of our soldiers. This is on Iraq.

          As for peace, have to wait & see. I could see Turkey having an effect. Take the Kurds out of the conflict & you have a civil war identical to Syria. Best course of action for the USA, build the Keystone pipeline. Sends a message this is their problem.

          • There was no real effort to implement a Status of Forces agreement. Not doing so, not pushing it, gave the Administration the cover they needed to withdraw.

            Despite the Bush screw up in staying there after Saddam’s ouster, our follow up moves in Libya, Egypt and supporting the “good?” freedom fighters in Syria brought this whole thing about.

            Would that the pipeline get built and that we do a Manhattan Project on energy in general but it ain’t gonna happen. I think it is pretty clear that ALL policy is now controlled by the courts. While some look to the 1% as the oligarchy, the reality is that it is the judges. The issue of lifetime appointments must be revisited. I can understand the need to be above politics but judges too should be term limited.

    • Air Strikes? That implies controllers on the ground to laze the targets which implies protection for the controllers. This ain’t gonna be done by B-1’s, 2’s or 52’s. This is what the A-10 was designed for and the Apache helicopter. Intervention is gonna be messy and complicated and require a lot of support. If I did it, I would pretty much throw in completely with the Kurds. That of course will piss off Turkey (an ally) and Iran (who cares).

      • Turkey is an ally on paper only…..they do not like us. Give the Kurds the laser equipment and the arms…..and leave Iraq alone. It is a regional issue.

  29. PeterB in Indianapolis says:

    John McCain says, “We are now facing an existential threat to the security of the United States of America,” the Arizona Republican told MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” on Friday. “This has turned into one of the most serious threats to American security in recent history.”

    What I don’t understand is – how does ANYTHING happening in Iraq right now pose ANY sort of threat to the security of the United States of America????

  30. Give Kerry a Goddam Swift boat and send him. There are a whole bunch of privately owned A-4 skyhawks in Florida, glue McCain into the seat of one and send him in too. One word, just one out of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and we parachute them in . Somebody has to pay for this shit.

  31. I think I’m starting to get it-it’s the hegemonic powers fighting against the “extremists” or the enemy of my enemy is my friend-at least temporarily.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27828595

  32. Changing the subject back for such a sec. but this is too interesting to pass up.

    June 13, 2014
    James Madison Foresaw Illegal Immigration
    By Michael Bargo, Jr.

    In 1787 and 1788, as representatives crafted the Constitution of the U.S. three prominent political writers, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and James Madison published a series of what would be called today op-eds. These three were not just writers, but were actively involved in the ratification of the Constitution — James Madison headed the Virginia delegation at the Constitutional Convention. Through their writings, they hoped to convince the public to support the new Constitution’s ratification. These papers were collected and published in The Federalist. Of the three James Madison was the only writer to extensively discuss immigration.

    Madison argued that the power to establish a “uniform rule of naturalization” must reside in the Federal government because states at that time had different, conflicting rules. He wrote in Paper No. 42: “In one state, residence for a short term confers all the rights of citizenship; in another, qualifications of greater importance are required. An alien, therefore, legally incapacitated for certain rights in the latter, may, by previous residence only in the former, elude his incapacity; and thus the law of one state be preposterously rendered paramount to the law of another, within the jurisdiction of the other.” Madison concluded that without one Federal rule for all states “The very improper power would still be retained by each state, of naturalizing aliens in every other state.” Alexander Hamilton wrote a concurring sentence in No. 32.

    Madison’s remedy, which found its way into the Constitution as Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, was to empower Congress with the exclusive power “to establish an uniform rule of naturalization” and standardize the conflicting policies then practiced by different states.

    But in the past forty years, for the first time in U.S. history, this Federal power has been gradually usurped; not by states, as Madison feared, but by big city mayors seizing naturalization power through a series of Executive Orders.

    This seizure of congressional power was not promulgated through Press Releases or legislation, it was done surreptitiously, through the quiet use of a two-step strategy. Step one was for city officials to proclaim that they would play no role in enforcing Federal immigration law. This was first done in 1979 by the city of Los Angeles through its illegal and unconstitutional Special Order 40.

    Since immigration law is Federal, local officials have no authority to enforce or not enforce immigration law. In reality these statements were crafted to function as public relations initiatives, as efforts to reach out to those who would enter the area illegally. The large numbers of illegal immigrant juveniles being invited by President Obama into the U.S. today is the boldest expression of the seizure of Congress’ power to control immigration, and Obama’s move has its roots in Special Order 40.

    The second step in this power grab was to proclaim that the city would make all benefits available to “residents” regardless of their citizenship status. The first declaration of this type was an Executive Order proclaimed by Chicago’s Mayor Harold Washington as Executive Order 85-1 “issued” on March 7, 1985.

    The remarkable thing about Harold Washington’s EO was that it used the exact same language as James Madison in The Federalist. The first sentence of Mayor Washington’s EO states: “IN ORDER to assure that all residents of the City of Chicago, regardless or nationality or citizenship…” Here we see the words of James Madison used: residents and citizenship. Through this EO Mayor Washington was blurring the distinction between residents and citizens by stating that all residents will enjoy “access to municipal benefits, opportunities and services.” He topped this off by stating that access to these City benefits would be available to “all persons residing in the City of Chicago, regardless or nation of birth or current citizenship.”

    By this simple Executive Order Mayor Washington challenged Congress’ exclusive authority to establish and enforce “an uniform rule of naturalization.” As a person born and raised in Chicago, I have never heard the media mention this EO. It was issued and put into practice in secret. The local media have not, to this day, discussed this Executive Order, in spite of the fact that I have discussed it here in AT several times and extensively documented it in my book Mexicago. Following Mayor Washington’s precedent, seven months later New York City’s Mayor Koch issued a “memo” to city departments requiring them to provide city services to all, including aliens. (NYT, October 15, 1985).

    Today Mexicans — the major of illegal immigrants are Mexican — have a birth rate double that of whites, and one child higher than that of blacks. And this is a national figure, not just that of the City of Chicago. Many states now explicitly allow illegal immigrants to have driver’s licenses. This enables them to vote. The state of Illinois, City of Chicago, and Cook County have also proclaimed that the matricula consular I.D. card, issued by the Mexican Consulate and other Central and South American Consulates, is accepted in their jurisdictions as a valid form I.D. This also enables them to vote. Cities and states have no Federal authority to declare what form of I.D. a foreign national may carry in the U.S. Only the State Dept. and DHS have this authority.

    Madison warned of the consequences of this in No. 43: “May it not happen, in fine, that the minority of citizens may become a majority of persons, by the accession of alien residents… or of those whom the constitution of the state has not admitted to the right of suffrage?”

    The Justice Department, which has the authority to protect Federal power against attempts by the states to usurp it, has not pushed back against this unconstitutional usurpation of Congressional authority. And President Obama, for the first time in U.S. history, has used the power of the Executive branch of the Federal government to brazenly defy Congressional authority and control immigration through his own edicts. In fact, President Obama’s actions can only be described as hostile to existing Federal law and the U.S. Constitution. He has not only refused to allow the Justice Department to enforce Federal law, he obstructs efforts by states to enforce existing law, such as when Arizona passed SB1070 and he ordered the Justice Department. to stop them from enforcing U.S. Immigration law.

    Every U.S. Department of Justice employee takes an oath to enforce the laws of the United States yet it is all too easy to cite many instances where they have refused to do so. And as President Obama shows every day, refusing to enforce existing law or follow the Constitution has the effect of rewriting Federal laws and amending the Constitution without going through proper Constitutionally mandated procedures.

    In fact, reviewing the illegal measures big city mayors have taken to enable and promote illegal immigration may reveal that President Obama’s strategy of seizing Congressional power and rewriting Federal laws may have been pioneered by the actions of these big city Democratic mayors.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/06/james_madison_foresaw_illegal_immigration.html

    • I think that we are basically cooked. The current admin obviously has an agenda that if taken to its logical extreme certainly will “fundamentally change the United States” . I would urge all of you who live in Republican districts to get on the horn and push for somebody like Trey Gowdy to replace Cantor. Gowdy, a prosecutor, has the same zeal you see in people like Rudy Guilliani and Chris Christie. We need that and we need it now. I think Obama is beyond reach but I have come to feel that his AG is not. Eric Holder is the one allowing the “fundamental change” to happen by not doing what the law requires him to do. He is ripe not only for impeachment but for arrest for contempt of congress.

      Think if you will what a wonderful moment it would be to start proceedings. No guarantee the Republicans in the Senate have the guts for it but the mere process would bring the Justice Department to a screeching halt. the fact that there would in effect be a prosecutor “above” the AG handling the case would give great pause to the rest of the DOJ. As information/charges were developed it would become apparent in a quick hurry just how far off the reservation Holder has taken the DOJ.

      The New York Times and The Washington Post would editorialize all day long about how this is a bad “precedent”. They could not, under any circumstances, be able to defend Holders acts.

    • My “impeach Holder” response is a good example of how to go after the rogue mayors. I think back to two incidents in my youth. When the voting age was lowered to 18, the drinking age followed. The Feds then, looking at the increase in alcohol/youth related accidents threatened to withhold highway funds from states who did not raise the age to 21. As New Yorkers, this hurt us. We had always been 18 and despite that were forced to 21. A few years before, when motorcycles became very popular in the early ’60’s the Feds did exactly the same thing with helmets. I remember, I was involved in protests at the time. I think only New Hampshire told them to shove it Every other state went along. Some have since backed off but at the time, it was 49 states passing helmet laws within a single year!

      Sanctuary city mayors should be facing the same things if not outright arrest. NYC does not demand proof for Section 8 housing vouchers, food stamps or welfare benefits. Seems logical that federal contributions not only could but should be cut fro this insolence. As a mayor, you want to do it, fine, you pay for it.

    • Nothing but an immigrant who got there first trying to secure his personal prosperity by preventing new immigrants.

  33. 200 U.S. contractors surrounded by jihadists in Iraq
    No help from military as escape routes cut off
    Published: 23 mins ago
    author-image Jerome R. Corsi About | Email | Archive
    Jerome R. Corsi, a Harvard Ph.D., is a WND senior staff reporter. He has authored many books, including No. 1 N.Y. Times best-sellers “The Obama Nation” and “Unfit for Command.” Corsi’s latest book is “Who Really Killed Kennedy?”
    rss feed Subscribe to feed

    NEW YORK – About 200 Americans under contract with the Department of Defense at Balad Air Force Base in Iraq are trapped by the al-Qaida-inspired jihadists who have seized control of two cities and are now threatening Baghdad, according to WND sources.

    The sources, private contractors who have recently returned to the U.S. from Iraq, said Friday their former colleagues effectively have been abandoned by the U.S. military and are fighting for their lives against an army of jihadists surrounding the base who belong to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS.

    The U.S. contractors are at Balad to help the Pentagon prepare the facilities for the delivery of the F-16 aircraft the Obama administration has agreed to provide the Iraqi government.

    The surrounded Americans said they currently are under ISIS fire from small arms, AK47s, and rocket propelled grenades, or RPGs.

    The contractors so far have been able to hold the base, but those on the scene reported it was only a matter of time before the ISIS terrorists succeed in breaking through the perimeter. They expressed concern that they would be ab

    WND has learned from sources that the jihadists have closed down escape routes, and the U.S. Air Force is in a stand-down position. U.S. forces are not assisting even with air cover so a private extradition flight could land for a rescue, the sources said.

    Privately scheduled exit flights have fallen through, sources said, as several private pilots originally scheduled to make the flights have quit.

    The sources contend the U.S. military could provide the necessary air cover to protect C-130s or other air transport craft sufficient to make the evacuation, but so far officials have refused to get involved.

    Balad Air Force Base has been under attack since Wednesday, when ISIS rebels seized the nearby town of Tikrit, the birthplace of Saddam Hussein.

    The attacking ISIS forces approached Balad Air Force Base in trucks and called through loudspeakers for all private security forces and Iraqi special military to leave immediately or die.

    The U.S. private contractors in touch with WND reported that after hearing the broadcast, the private security forces and the Iraqi military defending the base dropped their weapons and ran.

    The American contractors collected the weapons the fleeing private security forces and Iraqi military left behind and were able to hold off further immediate advances.

    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/200-u-s-contractors-surrounded-by-jihadists-in-iraq/#Q8aUuPwIYICpYodf.99

    • The US will likely do nothing in Iraq, mainly because it’s their guys that are doing all this insurgent stuff. ISIS is funded by Saudi Arabia. This is the same group that used chems in Syria in an attempted false flag attack to allow Obama to get us involved. ISIS is also the enemy of Iran, I think it’s easy to see where this is going. Obama may rescue the American’s, you know, all that no one left behind BS he has spewed lately, but I wouldn’t count on it.

      As far as Obama getting our military to fight for him,, fat chance. He has lost the military and the Vets. This may be the closest that a military coup has ever occurred in our history. If it occurs, I’m not sure I would be against it. 🙂

    • Well, the reports are different-so who knows what’s going on.

      Hundreds Of Americans Are Being Evacuated From Iraq’s Balad Air Base
      Agence France Presse

      Agence France Presse

      Jun. 12, 2014, 7:29 PM
      3,217
      10

      US companies were Thursday evacuating hundreds of Americans working with the Iraqi government from a major air base, US officials said, as Islamic militants swept towards Baghdad.

      A US defense official confirmed that “a few hundred” American contractors from Balad air base, 80 kilometers (50 miles) north of the capital, were being moved to Baghdad for security reasons.

      “We can confirm that US citizens under contract to the government of Iraq in support of the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program in Iraq are being temporarily relocated by their companies due to security concerns in the area,” State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

      Militants are closing fast on the capital Baghdad after sweeping up a huge swath of predominantly Sunni Arab territory in northern and north-central Iraq since launching their offensive in the second city of Mosul late on Monday.

      Psaki stressed however that the US embassy in Baghdad was still operating, saying “the status of the staffing at the US embassy and consulates has not changed.”

      The evacuation of Balad was being handled by the companies and did not involve the US government, the defense official said.

      “It’s their people. It’s their planes,” the official said, asking to remain anonymous.

      The contractors are hired out by the Iraqi government and working on programs related to F-16 fighter jets. They are not on the US government’s payroll.

      Balad air base was once one of the world’s busiest airports and housed some 36,000 American personnel before it was handed over to Iraqi control in November 2011.

      The 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing was the last unit to leave JBB, which occupied 25 square kilometers (nine square miles) and had a 20-kilometer security perimeter.

      Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/americans-evacuated-balad-2014-6#ixzz34XqYWsO4

      • Although, now that I look a little closer-the first one was reported today so it is the latest information.

      • ISIS is a combination of Sunni jihadist groups fighting the Shia-backed Damascus government of Bashar Assad (a US enemy backed by Shia Iran), and resurgent units of Saddam’s old Ba’athist army, led by Izzat Ibrahin al-Douri, the last surviving member of Saddam’s inner circle, and a handful of al-Qaida in Iraq.

        They are battling to overthrow the US-installed Shia regime in Baghdad of Nuri al-Maliki, an Iranian ally. There are suspicions ISIS may be secretly financed by Sunni Saudi Arabia, a US ally.

        Wait a minute. My enemy’s enemy is my friend, as the old Mideast saying goes. The US is trying to overthrow Syria’s secular government to undermine its ally, Iran. The US has been using brutal jihadist groups against the Assad regime in Damascus. But now these jihadists in Syria have mostly fallen under the sway of ISIS – which is chewing up the US-backed regime in Baghdad. Confusing, is it not? My enemy’s enemy has become my friend’s enemy.

        Interestingly, efforts by ISIS to forge an Islamic state in a merged Syria and Iraq is one of the first major challenges to the foul Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916 under which the British and French Empires secretly colluded to divide up the moribund Ottoman Empire’s Mideast domains. Today’s artificial Mideast borders were drawn by the Anglo-French imperialists to impose their rule on the region. Iraq and Syria were the most egregious examples.

        ISIS appears set on erasing the British-French borders and re-creating the unified Ottoman province (Turkish: vilyat) of Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. In the West, the neocon-dominated commentariat calls ISIS terrorists. In the Mideast, many see them as anti-colonial fighters struggling to reunite the Arab world sundered and splintered by the western powers. The western powers are now preparing to strike back.

        • As I said…..the secret is the past…..I think I would like to see the old Ottoman Empire re-established. Then the world will see what “real” violence is. But, still, no one, or very few understand centuries old conflicts…..they will not go away. Ethnic enclaves will never live together….there will always be ethnic enclaves and tribal wars…..the only things that change are the weapons.

          • D13
            ” Ethnic enclaves will never live together….there will always be ethnic enclaves and tribal wars…..the only things that change are the weapons.”

            There will be wars when these people are FORCED to live together.
            There will be peace when these people FREELY live together.

  34. Sedgewick says:

  35. Flag Day! Mine’s out. Fly em high and strong. No BF…not the black one. 😉

    • Sedgewick says:

      You may as well fly shackles.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        Despite our flaws as a nation, I think we have done quite well as a melting pot of so many people. I may despise our government but do love my country and wouldn’t want to live anywhere else.

        Today, I’m at a conceal carry seminar with Rep Rapp, state senator Hutchinson, local sherrifs an prosecutors. Should be interesting.

        • Governments teach their subjects to wave flags and sing songs in their honor, thereby contributing to the idea that resisting its expropriations and enormities is treason.

          • Sedgewick says:

            God Bless The USA
            by Lee Greenwood

            (FREEDOM IS SERVING GOD BY PRODUCING WEALTH AND GENOCIDE FOR THE STATE)

            If tomorrow all the things were gone,
            I’d worked for all my life,
            And I had to start again,
            with just my children and my wife.

            (LOVE IS BUYING THINGS)

            I’d thank my lucky stars,
            to be livin here today.
            ‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
            and they can’t take that away.

            (IF YOU LOVE YOUR FAMILY, YOU ARE FREE TO PRODUCE FOR THE STATE)

            And I’m proud to be an American,
            where at least I know I’m free.
            And I wont forget the men who died,
            who gave that right to me.

            (RIGHTS COME FROM MEN WHO KILL PEOPLE AND BREAK THINGS. STATE WARS ARE JUSTIFIED BECAUSE GENOCIDE EQUALS FREEDOM)

            And I gladly stand up,
            next to you and defend her still today.
            ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
            God bless the USA.

            (SUPPORT THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX AND PRODUCE GENOCIDE FOR THE STATE AND GOD)

            From the lakes of Minnesota,
            to the hills of Tennessee.
            Across the plains of Texas,
            From sea to shining sea.

            From Detroit down to Houston,
            and New York to L.A.
            Well there’s pride in every American heart,
            and its time we stand and say.

            That I’m proud to be an American,

            (JOIN THE STATIST BANDWAGON. FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOUR ENSLAVEMENT WITH ROMANTICIZED PRIDE IN YOUR DIVERSITY OF THE HERD. JOIN THE STATIST BANDWAGON)

            where at least I know I’m free.
            And I wont forget the men who died,
            who gave that right to me.

            (RIGHTS COME FROM MEN WHO KILL PEOPLE AND BREAK THINGS. GENOCIDE EQUALS FREEDOM)

            And I gladly stand up,
            next to you and defend her still today.
            ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
            God bless the USA.

            (PRODUCE GENOCIDE FOR THE STATE AND GOD)

            And I’m proud to be and American,
            where at least I know I’m free.
            And I wont forget the men who died,
            who gave that right to me.

            And I gladly stand up,
            next to you and defend her still today.
            ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
            God bless the USA.

            (FREEDOM IS SERVING GOD BY PRODUCING WEALTH AND GENOCIDE FOR THE STATE)

            • Sedgewick says:

              The anti-thesis:

              Huh!
              Hey yo, so check this out
              Yeah!
              Know your enemy!
              Come on!

              Born with insight and a raised fist
              A witness to the slit wrist, that’s with
              As we move into ’92
              Still in a room without a view
              Ya got to know
              Ya got to know
              That when I say go, go, go
              Amp up and amplify
              Defy
              I’m a brother with a furious mind
              Action must be taken
              We don’t need the key
              We’ll break in

              Something must be done
              About vengeance, a badge and a gun
              Cause I’ll rip the mike, rip the stage, rip the system
              I was born to rage against ’em

              Fist in ya face, in the place
              And I’ll drop the style clearly
              Know your enemy…Know your enemy!
              Yeah!

              Hey yo, and dick with this uggh!
              Word is born
              Fight the war, fuck the norm
              Now I got no patience
              So sick of complacence
              With the D the E the F the I the A the N the C the E
              Mind of a revolutionary
              So clear the lane
              The finger to the land of the chains
              What? The land of the free?
              Whoever told you that is your enemy?

              Now something must be done
              About vengeance, a badge and a gun
              Cause I’ll rip the mike, rip the stage, rip the system
              I was born to rage against ’em

              Now action must be taken
              We don’t need the key
              We’ll break in

              I’ve got no patience now
              So sick of complacence now
              I’ve got no patience now
              So sick of complacence now
              Sick of sick of sick of sick of you
              Time has come to pay
              Know your enemy!

              Come on!
              Yes I know my enemies
              They’re the teachers who taught me to fight me
              Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
              Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite

              All of which are American dreams
              All of which are American dreams
              All of which are American dreams
              All of which are American dreams

    • Exactly, Sed, it is flying their shackles.

      Anita, the purpose of the flag you fly is to lie to you.

      It is an abstraction, used by an institution, to declare that you are not an individual. It is saying no matter who you are or what you want does not matter. It creates this bizarre concept of “we” when speaking about “country” or “government action”.

      It is an abstraction of collectivism

    • You got it Anita-I’m flying mine High and PROUD!

      Hey SEDGE-I’ve got another song for you.

      My Country,’tis Of Thee

      My country, ’tis of thee,
      Sweet land of liberty,
      Of thee I sing;
      Land where my fathers died,
      Land of the Pilgrims’ pride,
      From every mountain-side
      Let Freedom ring.

      My native country, thee,
      Land of the noble free,
      Thy name ies love;
      my fathers die to protect thy land
      Thy woods and templed hills;
      my mothers willden pride
      like thy i sing

      Let music swell the breeze,
      And ring from all the trees
      Sweet freedom’s song;
      Let mortal tongues awake,
      Let all that breathe partake,
      Let rocks their silence break,
      The sound prolong.

      Our fathers’ God, to Thee,
      Author of liberty,
      To Thee we sing;
      Long may our land be bright
      With Freedom’s holy light,
      Protect us by Thy might,
      Great God, our King.

      • Sing the song of Liberty and Freedom, huh?

        Strange that it really doesn’t apply, does it?

        • Actually it does-you see anything in those words that talks about supporting a government. No you do not. The problem with your arguments BF-at least some of them is that you have to control the definitions to make them work-if one holds a different definition -your principals aren’t so principled anymore.

          • That’s what I mean, V.H.

            It is a little sing song of freedom, that you are plying about a flag, which is your government’s creation.

            It is YOU who is confused about this.

            • No, I don’t think I am-it’s more than a little sing song of freedom-it’s a reminder of our roots-it’s a reminder of the principals we are supposed to stand for-I will give you that the government will try to use it-this love we have for our Country and our Countrymen but then the government tries to use everything to influence us. Doesn’t mean we should throw out good things just be cognizant of the ploy.

              • You need to study these roots.

                It was an expression of freedom – and you do not stand for that at all.

                You want to prevent two people from marrying; poor people from seeking work; etc.

                Love for your “country” is empty. It does not live. People live.

            • Hahahaaaaaaa! Get him V!

              Nope. Not confused in the least.

              I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA
              AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS
              One nation UNDER GOD, indivisible
              With liberty and justice for all.

              Now. We’re not pledging allegiance to the government. We’re pledging to the republic…as in…us..the citizens…the collection of states…the country…the community of people. And we can be and should be proud to be part of this community. You’re the guy who wants everyone to live in peace. This is something that even you should support. Whatcha got to say bout them apples?

              • “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA
                AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS
                One nation UNDER GOD, indivisible
                With liberty and justice for all.”

                Yes you are. The flag is government creation.

                Hohohoho!!!

                Liberty and Justice for all!! Except for those you don’t like….

              • Support NONE OF IT.

                It is a myth, created to contain the minds of the people who give up their own rights to a collective.

                You pledge allegiance to your government – not your family. Hence, push come to shove, you WILL sacrifice your family for merely a flag.

              • Doesn’t sound like you need me to tell him anything 🙂

              • You pledge allegiance to your government – not your family.

                According to who?

                Didn’t I just say we’re pledging to the republic? I could swear I just said…..

              • My God, you do not even know what you are doing!

                This is what you posted:
                “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA”

              • I bet you sign documents without reading them too.

              • Sedgewick says:

                You pledge allegiance to a fancy piece of cloth
                and a great big stack of paper,
                pseudo-theocracy under someone’s man-god,
                divided and conquered,
                With enslavement and injustice to many.

                Exodus 20:4-6 – Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

                1 John 5:21 – Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

              • Tell you what..here’s how it is.

                It’s Flag Day.

                I”m flying my flag in support of the republic. I’m not worshipping the flag. I’m simply flying it. You don’t have to fly your flag. (uh oh, now you got me started, and I’m going to finish, just cause I want to feel like pestering you) What business is it of yours if I want to fly my flag? You want me to live to your desires. I thought this was a free country.

              • Anita

                “I”m flying my flag in support of the republic”

                You are supporting a collectivist idea.

                “What business is it of yours if I want to fly my flag?”

                Not one bit until you proclaimed your allegiance to it. Then we have problems.

                You pretend freedom – and then, in the next breath, break the freedom of others.
                It’s called “hypocrisy” and hypocrites are among the most dangerous people around.

                ” I thought this was a free country.”

                It isn’t, no matter how much pretending you do.

              • Anita,

                …and, oh, it became my business the moment you started waving your collectivist, slave flag in front of my face.

              • You are the GRUMPIEST grump of them all.

                Can you at least smile about this:

                HAPPY FATHER’S DAY BF!!!

              • Smile back. 🙂

  36. D13 and Gman

    The recent furor over illegal immigration has ignited another heated debate on the merits and demerits of a more-open immigration regime.

    I have long been a proponent of opening America’s borders.

    I may even accept the border situation — say, the way they were until the 1920s.

    Such borders were not totally open. Rather, immigrants would come in the same way they did for most of America’s history: Those who were not carriers of communicable diseases or who weren’t known violent criminals were allowed in. They were unimpeded, save for a relatively brief inspection at ports of entry such as Ellis Island.

    There are many upsides to returning to such a regime

    If one is a Statist, it is still easy to see that the billions of dollars now spent each year patrolling borders against the entry of people who simply seek to earn a better living, and enforcing anti-work regulations on illegal immigrants, could instead be spent on protecting Americans from people who mean us genuine harm, for example.

    The most common objection is that more-open borders, however desirable they might be in the abstract, are impractical as long as America has a welfare state.

    Indeed, even the late, great Milton Friedman famously argued against more-open borders precisely on this ground.

    Seldom do I disagree with Friedman — and when I do, I worry. But in this case I’m confident he was mistaken.

    I don’t deny that taxpayer-funded welfare and “public goods,” such as government schools, attract some poor people to the U.S.

    But I do deny that this problem is as bad as it appears to be and that it is a reason to keep immigration so limited.

    The most important fact overlooked by Friedman — or, at least, by those who cite Friedman as an authority for keeping immigration strictly limited — is that the costs of immigrants’ freeloading on taxpayers must be weighed against the benefits of immigrants’ contributions to the economy.

    The fact that some, or even many, immigrants come to America to bilk U.S. taxpayers does not, standing alone, argue against more-open immigration. Working immigrants’ extra private-sector output and contributions to tax revenues might well outweigh the burdens created by other immigrants’ use of America’s welfare state.

    Closely related is the heavy emphasis in U.S. immigration law on preventing immigrants from working.

    The numerous prohibitions and restrictions against immigrants (legal and illegal) finding gainful employment in America constitute overwhelming evidence that the real concern today is not that immigrants will abuse the U.S. welfare state. Quite the opposite: It’s that immigrants will compete with native-born Americans for jobs. And such competition is something that an economist of Friedman’s caliber would rightly applaud rather than condemn.

    Given these many prohibitions and restrictions, any data on immigrants’ likelihood of using the U.S. welfare state, or on the degree to which they use it, are useless for inferring how they would act if they weren’t so hamstrung in finding gainful employment in America.

    This fact holds even for the common complaint that immigrants overuse hospital emergency rooms. Of course they do. Being illegal, not only are their opportunities for employment lessened, but they also have no ability to receive employer-provided group health insurance.

    Employers who hire undocumented workers generally pay them in cash. Enrolling such workers in a group health-insurance plan risks exposing them to deportation and their employers to punishment.

    Cut off from the least expensive varieties of health insurance, it is no surprise that illegal immigrants overuse hospital emergency rooms — their safest and least costly means to get medical treatment.

    Abolish the existing prohibitions on legal employment and watch the incidence and severity of these problems diminish.

    But let’s assume these highly restrictive work rules cannot be eliminated. Would Friedman’s case against more-open immigration then fly?

    No.

    Friedman often proclaimed that the strongest case for individual liberty is a moral one.

    Because it is immoral for government to prevent the free movement of peaceful people, the existence of one immoral institution — the welfare state — ought not be used so cavalierly to justify the imposition of another immoral institution — restrictions on peaceful immigration.

    • Thank you……you proved my point. I have never been against immigration and I am not against it now. It would be wonderful to be able to have open borders but it is not practical until All do it and all subscribe to the same theory you like.

      Go back to pre 20’s immigration….control it, inspect them, heal them, if sick, welcome them..I absolutely have no problem….none. Problem solved.

      But you must close the border to do it…..instead of one Ellis Island……have several all along the border.

      Now, where you and I will continue to disagree…..since 2010…..this sudden influx is TOTALLY political…..you need to see what is going on and do not rely on media to provide your facts…..you are wrong on the 0.5% but there is no way to prove it beyond being here and seeing first hand. You know this as well as I…..figures don’t lie but liars can figure. What I don’t understand is why you would believe some concocted figures from the very government you despise. I would love for you to get my email and I would give you my address…I have the clout to take you to the front lines, so to speak….you and I agree philosophically on immigration but you do not understand the reality of it down here. I am telling you that this recent influx is a pre-planned, pre-ordained movement exploiting an economic situation in other parts of the world. My proof is what we find on their person….my proof is watching what the Federales do at the border…including shooting down innocent indigents…in the back…execution style. Young girls taken from their parents. It does not get reported nor will it. This is also political. The further proof is where these children are taken and the printed instructions that they have when taken there. The fact that they are denied food and water until they reach a specific destination is real. The military that you despise are actually the ones showing the most humanitarian efforts. The federal government is not….the military bases that are being used ARE not federal installations but state national guard installations under the direction of our governor.

      It is a travesty down here and federally sponsored. THAT makes it political. Come down and take a look.

      Now, return to the 20’s…….you have my agreement. It is easy to pick out the legitimate workers…very easy. We profile them all the time…and are not turned back. But this surge….no sir. I will not agree with it AND the children are a smoke screen. They are a diversion. In Irapuato Mexico, for instance, 1400 violent prisoners have been released. Irapuato is a known prison for violent criminals…..all were bussed to the U S border. They are here….now….and that is just one prison. Why is this NOT reported?….hell, this info has even been given to Huffpo and Fox News……the pictures of the children finally got smuggled out after 8 months….

      Come on down….take a look.

      • D13
        “Thank you……you proved my point.”

        Ah, no. I dismissed your point.

        “But you must close the border to do it…..instead of one Ellis Island……have several all along the border.”

        Ah, no. You do not “open” the border by “closing” the border.

        The issue is not “location” but of policy. The policy is a massive restriction on immigration, which creates the condition of massive illegal immigration.

        Change the policy and the condition changes.

        “this sudden influx is TOTALLY political”

        Semantics.
        It is an ECONOMIC issue of PROTECTIONISM, which has resulted in a POLITICAL solution of massive anti-immigration policy.

        Economics is the mother of politics

        “you are wrong on the 0.5% but there is no way to prove it”

        Ah, no. Gman found the numbers from the government as I did. Then simply math was used.

        Because you are nose deep does not suddenly make your vision univseral.

        You are like my Dad, who was a policeman, who daily saw the dregs of society, which influenced his mindset to the degree that anyone new he met caused him to think ‘…and what law have you broken today?…”

        But he was nose deep in the 1%, its all he saw. His limited vision does not make it universal, and neither does yours.

        The rest of your post is merely exampling the consequences of an errant policy. Fix the policy and the consequences fix themselves.

        • Sorry, my friend……can’t agree. The border is not the same as it was 40 years ago….but I will digress to the fact that we are at opposite ends. I further submit that the numbers you and g man found are from the government….Nuff said there.

          Now….different issue. I don’t know when the last time you were in Mexico was but you would not recognize it now…..the normal touristy border towns are now proverbial ghost towns. It reminds me of the Mid East where armed gangs just walk around openly. The police are armed but carry no bullets….the only real armed people is the army and the Federales. Juarez has lost its most violent city title to Nuevo Laredo. Second is now Reynosa next to Mc Allen. We pull bodies out of the river every day.

          Hell, you can’t even go to Cancun and rent a jeep any longer. We do not see the political climate changing anytime soon and are trying to get out of Mexico. We have a real nice ranch in San Miguel Allende but we do not go into town any longer without armed body guards. So far no buyers….anyone want a horse ranch? The mordida is alive and well and shows no signs of going away. We have been there for 25 years but it is not safe any longer….too bad.

          Have a good weekend, my anarchist friend. Thank goodness I will be out of this in October.

          • D13,

            “Sorry, my friend……can’t agree. The border is not the same as it was 40 years ago”

            Of course its not. It has 40 years of horrific restrictions. What do you expect?

            And it will continue to get worse and worse.

            “….but I will digress to the fact that we are at opposite ends. I further submit that the numbers you and g man found are from the government….Nuff said there.”

            In other words, it doesn’t matter what facts are presented, your mind is made up.

            “Have a good weekend, my anarchist friend. Thank goodness I will be out of this in October.”

            You too, and stay safe.

  37. In other words, it doesn’t matter what facts are presented, your mind is made up.

    Yes sir…my mind is made up. There are no numbers that the government can give me right now that will change my mind on this because I am ass deep in numbers down here that I know and see are manipulated. I refuse to sign reports on a weekly basis that I know are wrong. So, no sir, if this administration said day was light and night was dark, I would not believe it. They are not to be trusted. As I said, I see it on a daily basis.

    And to top it off….can you believe we have sent a carrier group towards Iraq? We learn nothing and no one wants to review history….unbelievable.

    • D13,

      And as I said, exampled by my own father, your vision does not make what you see universal.

      War is the health of the State.

      • David Fromkin’s A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East is beautifully written and documented.

        It explains the machinations of the British and French empires, whose crimes and schemes were grabbed and extended by the US after WWII.

        • Have read it…pretty interesting analogy….

          • What is left out is that France, GB, and the USA are just three of the players….not the only players.

            But, even if we did turn the clock back…..from the Ottoman Empire (and before), hegemony has existed and it will continue to exist and all with these imaginary lines you do not like. Borders within borders within borders will exist until this world explodes. There is nothing short of your evil definitions ( to mean aggression and forced change ) that will stop it. Nothing. Unfortunately, that is the reality and the reality is now….I (we) do not have the luxury of fantasy.

            Even you have to admit that the Persian Empire was ruthless and finite in its time…no different than today with all the different players. Only times and technology change….and the players…..it is just who carries the biggest stick….and now there are several sticks in the bag….as I said…look at history….and the quote…the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

            Not much of an epitaph on society, is it?

            • D13

              So you now ply “Well, the old guys were bad, so us being just as terrible is ok”

              Ugg.

              • You know me better than that…..it is the reality, whether I agree with it or not. It is not ok….but it is reality and it will not change. This, I believe. It is not human nature, IMO. The Star Trek World will not happen. Besides, if it ever does, there will still be Romulans and Klingons.

                Also…have a Happy Father’s Day !

              • This is where I stop understanding-this argument that it isn’t right to have borders it is just the way it is. So I ask why is it the reality if it is not human nature-why is it not the best way if the reality is that there will always be Romulans and Klingons?

              • First, let’s agree you don’t deal with “bad guys” by punishing the innocent.

              • You want to start on the basis of right and wrong-to discuss this as a humanitarian issue? Because on that basis we would come a lot closer to agreeing. But the starting point is about rights-Whether you want to recognize those rights or not-American citizens own this land and with ownership comes rights. And it’s funny but when you are talking about the rights that go along with ownership-harming the innocent is never a basis of argument that you accept.

                And for all you people on the left who want open borders who also get all self righteous about how the American Indians were treated-you know if they had protected their borders it might not have happened.

              • Anita

                “Whether you want to recognize those rights or not-American citizens own this land and with ownership comes rights”

                You are confused.

                I already addressed this to you once before – it is a FATAL MISTAKE to anthropomorphize a COLLECTIVE to be the same as an INDIVIDUAL.

                Rights belong to INDIVIDUALS, not GROUPS.

                You make a fatal mistake in believing your right of property becomes the right of a collective.

                Because of that mistake, you create a condition where the collective OVERRULES the rights of the individual.

              • Anita,

                Try not use historical examples that you really do not understand.

                Indian tribes absolutely defended themselves. If you studied a bit, you will learn that the Sioux had Spanish Conquistadors as trophies – ever wonder why the Spanish did not “conquer” North America?

                WORSE you confuse an invasion of HOSTILE armies to be the same as men seeking work.

                This terrible intellectual weakness, you present clearly my complaint.

                You preach freedom and work very hard at destroying it.

              • *Spanish Conquistadors HELMETS as trophies…

      • I do have a question for both you and G man……this evil government…this pariah that you both describe….why is it that the two of you would cherry pick sanitized stats from the very government you admonish as reference? Is my vision, meaning what I actually see, any less? What you are telling me, is that you want to believe sanitized government stats over reality…..what makes their stats any different than mine? You are certainly not hurting my feelings by not believing what I post…..cool…..but why would you put faith in the government that you know is lying?

        • It isn’t a “picking”

          First, governments – all of them – love stats. USSR was full of stats. Nazis loved stats and recorded everything. One thing about tyranny, it loves to record everything so that it can control everything.

          Whether the stats are sanitized… so what? It works both ways. The point being, both numbers come from the same source and suffer the same “corrections”, so when you reference on against the other, it has meaning.

          If for example, you subtract 100 from every data point you record. True, the number you write down is wrong, but comparing the data points to each other, each suffering the same “correction”, you can derive meaning.

          Yours, however, are isolated and incomplete. Tyranny records are not incomplete as yours.

        • gmanfortruth says:

          The only thing I posted was that Congress. Passed legislation allotting go 2 billion dollars for care of he kids that have been coming across the border.

          I don’t agree with Flags reasoning behing this influx, nor do I think that welfare is not a cause of illegal immigration . I’m also holding that we have 90 million legal Americans out of work, the idea of this so called cheap labor being good, at this time, is bulldookie too.

          Mostly, I like open bordrers and immigration, but I fall into your cats gory, this mess is purely political. These young children can’t do cheap labor , they are too young in many cases. They do need fed, clothed snd housed, as well as medical care. This is Obama trying to overwhelm the capabilities to force Amnesty, nothing more. These immigrants are pawns for a very sick people in DC

          • Gman,

            You make a classic mistake here

            ” I’m also holding that we have 90 million legal Americans out of work, the idea of this so called cheap labor being good, at this time, is bulldookie too.”

            No.

            Min. Wage legislation prevents LEGAL Americans from accepting the work “illegal” immigrants (who do not participate in min. wage legislation) do.

            Further, the mass majority of these out-of-work Americans REFUSE to do the work illegal aliens accept. Who do you know from your friends who go into the hot sun and pick vegetables? Americans wait for “Good Jobs” and ignore the jobs that these immigrants accept.

            Further, most Americans refuse to move to the jobs. There are thousands of jobs in N.Dakota or Canada but these people don’t want to leave “home” – a condition EXACTLY OPPOSITE of the illegal immigrant, who OBVIOUSLY is willing to move and subject himself to severe circumstances to find a job.

            Do your homework before making baseless claims.

            • gmanfortruth says:

              It’s no more baseless than your BS as of late. It’s not picking season , immigrants Wong be here for that go a couple months, then they go back home, I’m just fine with immigrants who want to work , always have been,

              As is usual , you cherry pick stuff to claim to be a higher power of AI. I agree thst MDMA will not move , or will not work a lower paying job. Let them fucking starve, I don’t have any sorrow for them, we are talking about this huge influx of children, not worker age men and women wasting to pick veggies. Try addressing the current issue, not the obvious stuff that a properly trained robot can say .

              To make myself perfectly clear, the current influx is purely political, if you disagree , that’s fine. You are entitled to your opinion, and you can keep playing broken record snd starring the obvious about our laws, That are NOT being enforced, which kinda screws up your claims a bit. Young children do not come here to work , which part of this issue can’t you comprehend?

              • You are utterly devoid of cause and effect.

                You pretend your cause – welfare state – is the reason, when it IS NOT.

                IT is the immigration POLICY that prevents these kids parents from getting a job

                NO such POLICY, NO such PROBLEM.

              • Not being enforced????

                So the 148,000 seized Mexicans so far this year don’t exist?

                You are, in this matter, talking from your butt.

              • You’re daft, Gman

                “The agency confirmed Thursday that agents in the busiest sector on the Southwest border had made nearly 160,000 arrests since the Oct. 1 start of the fiscal year. That surpasses the more than 154,000 it made last year. Internal documents obtained by The Associated Press show that last year’s total was beaten last week.”

                That is one sector in Texas.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Marred td are not doing any good, the laws require deportation. I don’t like the laws any more than you, the claims of large deportation numbers in the past have already been proven to be more Obsma lies.

                I agree our laws prevent the parents from coming, no doubt.

                Yes , welfare is a problem, to claim otherwise is ignorance. Why would people work a low paying job when the govt gives more? We do need more workers who do the lower wage jobs , end welfare , we won’t need low wage immigrants . To say otherwise is ignoring the problem . Do you really wasn’t the hard work of these low wage working immigrants funding lazy ass Americans? Because that is what your going to achieve with you position. Not very bright in my book. 🙂

              • Wake up, Gman

                “Yes , welfare is a problem, to claim otherwise is ignorance.”

                YES IT IS. AS ALREADY POINTED OUT, YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT FRACTIONS OF A PERCENT

                BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Oh! Happy Fathers Day my friend! I hope you get plenty of time with family when you can. 😀

              • Working, so maybe next year

              • Government does NOT give more to illegal aliens. THEY RISK DEPORTATION, which is why MOST DO NOT GO TO WELFARE OFFICES.

                Yes, END WELFARE, but not because of Immigration, but because welfare is economic idiocy.

  38. @ BF……you said ” First, let’s agree you don’t deal with “bad guys” by punishing the innocent.”

    Ok, for the sake of argument, I agree. Now what?

  39. Source quote posted from BF…..”The agency confirmed Thursday that agents in the busiest sector on the Southwest border had made nearly 160,000 arrests since the Oct. 1 start of the fiscal year. That surpasses the more than 154,000 it made last year. Internal documents obtained by The Associated Press show that last year’s total was beaten last week.”

    This is crapola in the supremo……….To classify an arrest……identify arrest….beginning this fiscal year and because it is an election year, the definition of arrest was changed to suit the democrats.

    Used to be, an arrest was identified by stopping and detaining an individual for longer than 36 hours. We had 36 hours to charge them or turn them out. You are going to see tons of arrest this fiscal year because it is politically charged…..arrests are now being documented in the files as……..being stopped and asked for identification and being returned to the border. Arrest is also being defined as profiling legal Mexicans and asking for ID….and then turned loose. It is utter and complete bullshit. For example, a pickup truck driving on the Texas border gets stopped and the driver is HIspanic and legal and he has three legal Hispanic riders…..this is NOW classified as being detained and goes on a ledger, with no names or addresses, that 4 Hispanics were arrested. No charges are being filed and no documentation is being kept except a ledger. No handcuffs, no ticket…….nothing. So, no one can follow up because there is no address, no phone number, no license plate number……….just a figure in a ledger and a government employees word.

    Also, what was NOT reported as an arrest and now will be added, are the arrests by the Texas Department of Public Safety. Used to be, those were not in the numbers reported by ICE and INS…..because they did not make them. The reason? Because the administration did not want high numbers until this year….now they want the numbers. It is an election year.

    And, I might add that the majority of the detainees ( we can’t arrest anymore, we detain ) were done so by the Texas National Guard. In actuality what is not in these numbers are the exact numbers that were actually detained…..and that number is waaaaaay North of 154,000. The Texas National Guard could not turn them over to ICE because ICE refused to come get them……we took them to the border and turned them loose except for the gang bangers and the druggies and the human traffickers. We kept those…..and usually the Feds turned them loose later. Now, ICE has all of a sudden become concerned with our detainees and will pick them up…..in this new fiscal year.

    I re-iterate…..to know what is actually going on on the entire Texas border…..one needs to be here. to read about it is folly.

  40. Wait BF, instead of answering all these questions, give me time to outline the exact procedure including what we do and do not have access to……

  41. So, when a Mexican prison is emptied and the inmates shipped to the border….and we cannot access Mexican Felony records……you are advocating just let them come in and wait until they violate a law here and create a record. Just assume that everyone is innocent.

    Mexican criminals have NO FBI record in the United States. We are NOT allowed access to ICE or Immigration records without filling out a ton of paperwork and that takes days. We are not allowed access to the Mexican or Guatemalan, or Belize criminal files. We do have access to interpol but local crimes are not reported there…only international ones or those deemed to be international criminals.

    We do not have access and nor does the Mexican local ( meaning town police ) even have computers. Actually, Mexico is pretty primitive by our standards EXCEPT the elite and those in power.

    Please do not be under the assumption that we get cooperation from Mexico…we do not.

    • And if a Frenchman commits a crime in the US what do you?

      Thus, that is how you should deal with Mexicans. Stop what you know, that’ll take most of them away, and those that do crime, send home.

      The resources right now you are consuming would easily be able to deal with it.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        Why Yes, Lets let a couple thousand criminals in, let them commit crimes like rape and murder so we have a reason to ship them out. I bet the victims would be very happy with that idea..

        • How do you know they are rapists and murderers? D13 says he can’t tell either.

          So your solution is “everyone is a criminal”. How’s that working for ya?

    • Ya don’t get cooperation from China either, and you seem to deal with them well enough.

      Again, your problems are of “your” own making. Stop making them, and those problems go away.

      It worked for a couple of hundred years before with mexico……. and you didn’t have computers then either.

  42. gmanfortruth says:

    Holy Molly Flag, If we get the damn Government OUT of all of our lives we would have none of these discussions. Why don’t we just agree to this and move on.

    • To get the right answer by error does not improve things much.

      Immigration issue is a MORAL issue. The problems are due to application of violence upon the non-violent is a MORAL issue, which ALWAYS creates the condition opposite of what the reason violence was used.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        It is the government monopoly on violence that has caused most, if not all of the problems in this country. End them, the problems will work themselves out.

  43. I guess it will do me no use to outline what we go through……I can see that we will still be unable to compromise. Ok, my friend, fair enough….gotta have to horses to have a horse race.

    Forget the above subject…..can you believe that they send a carrier into the Iraq area named…HW Bush? Is that intimidation/stupidity or what…..unbelievable. no lessons learned,,,,,,none.

    • My question is, when will the authorities in the border states stop paying attention to Washington dictates and do what they have to do? Does anyone have the stones to say no and face the consequences? Seems to me you Texicans have decent enough lawyers out there who could probably run rings around the AG’s crew. I mean if jury nullification is a real honest to God thing, there absolutely has to be an equivalent in a case like this.

  44. the Criminal State

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