GET STUFFED!

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Or Happy Thanksgiving.

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  1. Fresh page for open mic.

  2. 😎

    @JAC, HuffPo is a poor source unless your point is to show how poorly the Liberal’s think and act. In that case HuffPo and several other Left wing sites are perfect for that 🙂

    As far as confirming new people that Obama wants hired. Why waste the tax dollars paying the salary and perks to another loser(s). As long as the country’s biggest failure as President is in office, the failures will simply continue. As far as the witch waiting in the wings to take over for Hagel, I’m fairly sure that ALL the decisions that were allowed by his Majesty has proven to be a failure. If the witch thought of the failures, why would anyone in the right mind vote to confirm that person. Unless, of course, they’re all really on the same team 😀

    • Fresh home grown chicken for dinner tonight! This morning was butcher day, so all the big one’s are meat in the freezer. Clipped the wings and kept the smaller ones to let them grow some more. Come February, we’ll restock 🙂

      Fun question of the day. If the grocery stores would be unavailable for a lengthy period of time (due to power failure) how long would it take before you would become concerned about food?

    • Just A Citizen says:

      gman

      Huff Po is actually a pretty good source of information, although it is usually tilted. Just as other sites tilt their way.

      HP’s majority of stories are really just copied from somewhere else. Same model as Drudge.

      It is also a great example of the confirmation bias and lunacy on the left. Kind of like Info Wars, American Thinker, Malkin, and even Red State. 🙂

      Still hope to join ya for some huntin some day. At least sampling your home grown “wine”.

      Hope you have a great week….weekend. Our kids are coming home along with one grandbaby. YeeeeHaaaaaaaaa.

      • gmanfortruth says:

        The door is always open to a fellow hunter. We have some exciting bow hunting when the rut is beginning.

        It’s great that you will be with family on T-day, that’s one reason why I like the holiday so much! I’m hoping my daughter can make the visit as well !

        My oldest turned 27 today, damn I’m old. : D

        • Mine’s 26 G. I’m excited. She was always with her dad or her husband’s family on Thanksgiving, or if she was with me we’d be at my mom’s. This year is the first year I’m cooking for my whole immediate family, can’t wait. Sat here and plotted the whole menu today, grocery list and all. It’s on!

  3. Happy Thanksgiving to All 🙂

    Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday! Family, friends and a feast. Add some good NFL games, some cold beer and the anticipation of the opening day of rifle season for deer on the following Monday. Almost 1 million men, women and children will arm up and take to the woods with dreams of downing that trophy buck of a lifetime. Deer camps will be alive and the partying that takes place is like no other time of year. Surprisingly, living here in deer country in what used to be called deer camp doesn’t take the excitement away, but adds to the fun. As fellow deer hunters visit to get all the latest reports about all the bucks running around, the beer will flow freely with some Apple Pie moonshine sprinkled in. It is the most fun weekend of the year. By midday Tuesday, the woods will be mostly empty and life is back to normal. We’ll keep hunting to try and fill any tags left over. Gotta love the country life 😀

  4. Okay-it’s very long and I almost stopped reading before I got to the really interesting parts
    but it’s worth it in the end. She is very good at pointing out how they use words to mislead without out and out lying.

    http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/24/20-ways-media-completely-misread-congress-weak-sauce-benghazi-report/

    • Good read. I head read most of her tweets on this on Twitchy but the full article is better.

      Guess where my mind immediately goes when I read this:

      “The media immediately turned it into a political story, focusing more anger on Mitt Romney’s comments……”

      Know anyone else that flipped out over this, down to the exact minute? LOL! Good times on SUFA!

  5. Sadly, I think he’s correct. This whole thing is bizarre. Why?

    http://www.hagmannandhagmann.com/archives/1130

  6. Good Morning SUFA! 🙂

    I have busted Hughesnet (internet provider) basically stealing in an attempt to get into a higher priced plan. Spent a great deal of time on the phone with numerous people, basically, I have the proof and they have crap for excuses. Last night after midnight, they said someone in management would call me Friday. Well, I know that’s BS, so after today’s desired accomplishments are made, it’s back on the phone with someone who is not at fault, but represents the company. I’m not a very nice person when dealing with thieves. I have to research what legal avenues exist, maybe within the State govt. If anyone has any knowledge on type of issue and what steps to possibly take, please pass it along.

    The Obamabots are burning down Ferguson. I wonder how many people are now unemployed because of barbarians and their idiotic actions? This case was clear from the beginning and I expected no charges to be filed. This is the new Trayvon Martin issue, except the prosecutor was not pushed by political ideology. These looters should all get a bullet in the ass, then sent off to the pokey for a few years. Just remember to stay safe and be aware of your surroundings (and pack heat). I have no doubt that a few “white” people will be attacked by thugs over this issue, just as it was the case during and after the Martin case. It is not safe to be white around black people today. Don’t put yourself in a position to become a victim (that sounds so racist, but it’s not meant as such, this is the reality of today’s America).

    Turkey Day is one day closer, woohoo! 😀

    • Hi GMan – been long time. I don’t watch the news much anymore – but caught sight of some of the Ferguson mess last night. Guess I don’t understand why they release Grand Jury results at night – sorta seemed like a set up to me – build the fire, douse with fuel then toss the match. Why not release the results unannounced, during the day while everyone is at work. I’m sure all the looters, as they return to their desk jobs today, appreciate the opportunity to burn their own neighborhoods down.

  7. I notice several states beginning to follow the Texas model on picture ID’s….The SNAP program being the target first. Maine has told the Feds…..too bad. If you want to cut the funding, then do so. Mass is going to do the same. Why? Because the fraud is rampant and the State’s cannot afford the program. State’s are going to try to balance their budgets. Massachusetts alone issues over 450,000 SNAP cards. Since the Fed does not fund it, Massachusetts does….the issue is simple really,….just to the progressive thing and raise taxes in Mass.

    OR…

    Balance your budget as Texas does and refuse Fed money with strings attached.

  8. Interesting the cities that are protesting a “no bill”. It is even more interesting to see how many people do not know what a Grand Jury is much less what it is for.

    The District Attorney knew there was going to be a no bill…..Now, I hope we get to see the whole list of evidence that produced no indictment. Such as two sets of finger prints on the officer’s weapon….the so called eye witness’ whose story changed each time they told it…

    But what the hell…go ahead and burn down Ferguson…..burn down the middle class stores and loot your own stores…..and the inevitable interview of a masked looter that was part of the burning down of a Panera Bread store because…..it sell’s “white bread”…..really? Anybody else see that interview?

  9. Why! When anyone, including the president, talks about steps moving forward, NO ONE mentions changing the behavior of people that think robbing and rushing police officers is OK?

      • David Skekabim says:

        ” NO ONE mentions changing the behavior of people that think robbing and rushing police officers is OK? ”

        A policeman’s job is to protect the rights of people in the community. Robbing a store is violating someone’s rights, thus the policeman was in the right to stop him.

        However, if a policeman is harassing someone where there is no victim, he is violating rights, and therefore it is well within an individual’s right to exercise self defense against said policeman.

        • “However, if a policeman is harassing someone where there is no victim, he is violating rights, and therefore it is well within an individual’s right to exercise self defense against said policeman.”

          Nope. Not a chance, at least not as this would apply here or even in the Zimmerman/Martin shooting. Wilson spoke to Brown , walking illegally down the middle of the street. Unless Wilson threatened Brown with violence, Brown has no right to use force. A threat of violence would be assault. Being harassed, insulted, annoyed, etc is all part of free speech. As long as you can walk away and are allowed to do so, there is nothing to “defend” yourself from.

          • David Skekabim says:

            I was speaking more in terms of a victimless ‘crime’.

            If you’re not harming anyone and a policeman tries to exert authority over you, then you have every right to defense against him.

            For example;

            Let’s say a policeman spots you putting a little cocaine up your nose. He decides to arrest you for possession as well as take your coke. You don’t have to comply. He has no right to take your property or kidnap you.

            In such a instance, you have every right to use deadly force as to prevent him from violating you.

            Further, I would also argue that indeed you do have a right to defense against people stalking and/or harassing you. If someone keeps following you around with clear intent of annoying the piss out of you, clearly making your life miserable, they’re interfering with your pursuit of happiness.

            At some point, you must put a stop to it. If that requires force, so be it.

            • I can agree there are times when it is legal and proper to defend yourself from the police. (Good luck with that) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye

              I do not agree with your example. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. Right now, cocaine is illegal and the event you describe would be “legal” for the law enforcement officer to act upon. Resisting a “lawful” activity by an official allows them to use “all necessary force”. I’m not a fan of the drug laws but you need to get them changed or it becomes ObamaLand, picking and choosing what laws are valid.

              • David Skekabim says:

                ” I can agree there are times when it is legal and proper to defend yourself from the police. (Good luck with that) ”

                Mr. Maye had every right to kill them in defense, regardless of whether or not they identified themselves as policemen. They had no right to force their way into his home, kidnap him or steal his property.

                ” I do not agree with your example. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. Right now, cocaine is illegal and the event you describe would be “legal” for the law enforcement officer to act upon. ”

                You are basically arguing ‘might makes right’ or that government law is always right, …which is absurd. Funny clothes and bullshit on paper doesn’t give anyone a right to do anything. You have the right to buy, sell, possess, or use drugs in spite of what any bullshit on paper states.

                ” Resisting a “lawful” activity by an official allows them to use “all necessary force”. ”

                Wrong. Unless you are violating someone, policemen have no legitimate reason to bother you. If they do, you have the right to defend yourself.

                ” I’m not a fan of the drug laws but you need to get them changed or it becomes ObamaLand, picking and choosing what laws are valid. ”

                Any ‘law’ that is not in defense of a victim is illegitimate, invalid. Individuals are more legitimate than government as natural creatures born with inalienable rights. You can do whatever you want as long as you do not violate others.

    • “When anyone, including the president, talks about steps moving forward,”

      I think what he and several liberals like Morning Joe mean is to push us back. Require laws that handcuff police and all others from self defense.

  10. Interesting article on the grand jury in Ferguson.

    I’ve heard from a number of prosecutors and defense attorneys that agree with the basic premise of this article. The grand jury in this case was very strange, as was the prosecutor’s speech last night.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/11/ferguson_grand_jury_announcement_prosecutor_robert_mcculloch_influenced.html

    • Marc Lamont Hill, is that you?

      I thought you were a prosecutorial discretion type of guy. Would you, being a white guy, want to make the call of no indictment, without a grand jury? It was a CYA, literally, move. Doesnt change a thing either way.

      • Bonus round:

        These are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed.

      • Yes, it was a CYA move which I think was the right move to make. But that doesn’t change the fact that there were peculiarities with how the grand jury was run.

        Note that this doesn’t mean that, given the evidence presented, the grand jury was ‘wrong’ in not indicting. It just means that there were peculiarities.

        And even you have to admit it was a very strange press conference, no?

        • Oh yeah, it was weird. He knew shit was going to hit the fan no matter what. I liked that he knew the crowd he was speaking to, and used pretty simple language to get the point across. Did it without coming off as snarky. What I think is really weird, and check me if I’m wrong, is that the case would have been, The State v Ofc. Wilson, right. So this prosecutor was representing the state knowing that the cop was within his rights. So even if he did indict Wilson, he’d be going against what he knew to be right. Just seems to be a weird spot to be in. I’m probably assuming a couple things here, like where he actually stood on the issue.

          • From one commentator:

            “In this case, the grand jury was given a mountain of evidence, and next to no help in how they should deal with it. It’s exactly how McCulloch would not handle any other case. This “hands off” attitude wasn’t just unusual, it’s precisely a negation of what a prosecutor is asked to do. McCulloch didn’t prosecute. This case was given very special treatment, treatment designed to promote the sort of confusion that leads to “no true bill.”

            The vast vast vast majority of grand juries return an indictment. That’s a fact. If the prosecutor wanted an indictment, he almost definitely would have gotten one. This was a CYA move to allow McCulloch to place the decision on the hands of the grand jury as opposed to himself.

            • He was playing to the court of public opinion. He was wrong to do so and should never have brought it to a grand jury. That said, politicians decided it was the best way to try and appease the media and the mobs. Was not going to happen even if they had done a perfect job of running the jury and the announcement. ( I agree with your points BTW )
              The mob and the shadow agenda pushing from behind wanted violence. Had Wilson been charged, they would have still been looking for an excuse.

            • Happy Thanksgiving Buck! My best wishes to you and your family 😀

              I’ve not had much love for Grand Jury’s. Most simply indict if the prosecutor wants it. I know, I have experience in this matter, first hand. I was indicted in Ohio for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit four years ago or so. This, despite the fact that I couldn’t conceal the weapon when it’s in a shoulder holster on top of a tank top.

              They asked for all this plea bargain BS, I told them to suck my ….. 🙄

              It went to trial and I was found innocent. I made the cop and prosecutor look completely stupid in front of the judge, who asked why the case even occurred. He chewed out both of them prior to making his decision. The cop was dismissed from the hearing and told to leave after he was reminded of the definition of concealment was. After a short break, the judge made his ruling, NOT GUILTY!

              So, I have little faith in GJ’s. This one got it right, unlike the one in the T. Martin case. Bottom line, act like a barbarian, get shot and die. Skin color don’t matter.

              Recently in Youngstown Ohio, 4 black men were assassinated by a black man. I’d bet my house it didn’t make the National News, which it didn’t. If the black community wants to NOT get shot and killed, quit acting like barbarian thugs. Begin by stop killing each other. When the black race pimps like Obama and Holder would start their, it would help. But that’s not what race pimps do.

              • And a happy thanksgiving to you as well!

                You say: “So, I have little faith in GJ’s. This one got it right, unlike the one in the T. Martin case. Bottom line, act like a barbarian, get shot and die.”

                I fear you are misinformed on the role of a grand jury — it is not to make a determination as to guilt or innocence, but to determine if probable cause exists to prosecute.

              • No Sir, I fully understand the role of a GJ. As my story has shown, they aren’t very accurate. The GJ chose to not indict, which was strange in itself. But, I stand with their decision as being correct in this case.

              • As your story shows, it was not the grand jury at issue, but the prosecution.

                And once again, as I’ve been saying continuously all day, I’m not saying that the grand jury was ‘wrong’, just that there are some serious peculiarities with how it was run versus pretty much every other grand jury.

              • That’s cool my friend. I’ve never served on a GJ. Been called for jury duty 3 times, better never made it on a jury (lawyers just don’t seem to like middle aged guys with long red ponytails, I just don’t get that). I laughing my butt off now. I’m dealing with Hughesnet, my internet provider, and I have irrefutable proof that they are stealing from me. Even the third party tech support they send me too (twice) is in full agreement. Any suggestions on who to bring that up too?

              • What proof? How much have they stolen?

            • From Oct 25 to Nov 7, my usage graph on their site shows I used 379 mb, yet they claimed I used 5000mb. Bought 2 gb on the 17th at 11pm, used 38 mb in two days, they claimed I used 2000 (2gb). They sent a new modem, gave me back my two GB, plus 2 gb and I woke up Saturday with 4044mb. Graph shows I used 23mb when I wok again Sunday but I they claimed 464mb. Sunday, same thing. Woke this morning, I have my monthly 5000mb at Midnight on the 25th of each month, used 2mb in the 12am hour (talking to them) I awoke to 4992mb. At 1.53pm today, I unplugged modem completely. At 3:49 it showed I had used 10 mb today but my balance was 4976 which is 16mb more than my usage. This has been a problem with them since I got them in August (as I’m now learning).

              A third party tech support run a diagnostic on my system, clean as a whistle, don’t use a router so nobody is accessing wirelessly. Yesterday they suggested I got to a higher priced plan, I declined and said I’m not using what I buy to begin with, and the usage graph proves that. Oh, I had to unplug modem from computer for a test, the modem never blinked one time in four hours, nothing was happening with the modem, and the test showed it’s working fine. Just got off the phone again with these idiots, still getting nowhere. I have told them straight up that they are stealing and I can prove it, because it’s their business model to get people to go to a higher priced plan (which they tried yesterday).

              Any suggestions on what agency to go to or do I need a lawyer and just sue their ass?

              • Have you been able to get to a supervisor by phone to discuss? Maybe just have an attorney send a letter along with print outs of your usage.

              • I managed to get to the 2nd level up tonight, only to get the same circle jerk crap. I don’t have a lawyer on the payroll (ROFLMAO) at the moment, do you have a suggestion as to what specialty type lawyer would do such a thing?

                I finally told the 2nd level manager that she either needs to hook me up with her supervisor, or e-mail him/her to call me in the morning. She hung up on me 😀

              • I believe I’m being monitored. FYI!

              • For purposes of sending a letter, doesn’t really matter. Some general litigation type would be more than sufficient.

                How much money are we talking about here? Do the standard – get someone higher up on the phone, find out more information, send them copies of the usage graphs, threaten to cancel service (maybe actually cancel and let them come after you for the fees), file a claim in small claims court…

              • Thanks, I didn’t think of small claims court. We’re not talking about what would be considered a lot of money at all, however, it’s principal and morals. I’m a very principled man when it comes to honesty and absolutely do not tolerate theft. Companies can be dishonest to get people to pay more, that is fact and I believe I have unfortunately gotten involved with one of them. I like the service when its working correctly and have a 2 year agreement, which I will honor but I will, come hell or high water, make them do the same, honestly.

                I will use social media if needed to go on the attack (Montel Williams is now following me on Twitter).

                Thanks again for your wise advice! 🙂

    • He allowed the Jury forever to go over the evidence. I still don’t see why people cannot get it. Three autopsies, one possibly friendly, two openly hostile to the town cops. Forensic evidence up the kazoo. Blood of the perp inside the Tahoe, blood trail to the rear of where he dies indicating he came forward at the cop. Testimony from black witnesses backing the cops story. , Tape of Brown’s behavior during the strong arm robbery. Do you know what the size discrepancy was between Brown and the cop? 6’4, 294 lbs vs 5’7, 170 lbs. Says a lot doesn’t it? Would you want some stoked up outraged guy coming near you who had nine inches and 120 pounds on you?

      Did not intend to watch the whole thing last night but did, every minute and especially the Q and Q with the press. What the hell else could anyone want?

      Despite the fact that I have met a number of really rotten cops in my time, in this case, I can see no other outcome unless you prefer the justice of Judge Lynch which seems to be pretty much what the conventional media is asking for.

      • All I’m saying here is that this grand jury was run differently from most.

        I am not saying that based on the evidence presented the grand jury reached the ‘wrong’ result or could not have returned no indictment.

        • What I understand of how it’s done, I agree. Usually a prosecutor presents the evidence and gives reasons why they should be charged? They don’t just throw it all on the table and ask, “what do you guy’s think?” of a grand jury.

          • Precisely.

            • In this case, perhaps it was the only way to go. I’ve seen some bogus prosecutions in my time, one that I was a witness in for the defense. Totally political. Someone’s ass needed protecting, millions were spent, the defendants bankrupted for a “not guilty” verdict in less than five minutes.

  11. Caught up after a busy day. Let me just make a simple statement on the Ferguson issue. A large barbarian thug got his ass shot and killed because he failed to act like a law abiding citizen. It’s real simple, just like the T. Martin case, attack and die.

    The folks doing the looting and starting the fires should get the same treatment, bullets. Shoot them down, the looting and BS stops. The black folks doing this, the race pimps stoking the fire, all of them can piss and moan about a white cop shooting a black man in self defense all they want. I’ll take them seriously when the act the same way about blacks killing blacks every single Fing day. They are a disgrace to this nation.

    Now for the conspiracy theory stuff 😀

    Government WANTED the violence and ensured that the decision was at night. They let the violence and damage occur so they can come in and call for Martial Law. Obama wants a race war (which is what many are calling it). Set up the FEMA death camps, round them up and finish them off. OK, now back to reality 😀

    • This is the result of all the “your a racist” bullshit from the Left. Shameful! Simply shameful. The Left and their MSM bullshit has a huge hand in all this stuff going on.

  12. I like last comment. Looks like this is what Obama meant by shovel ready projects : http://clashdaily.com/2014/11/black-thugs-wanted-excuse-violence-17-head-slapping-pics-thugs-trashing-ferguson/

  13. Hopefully I got this right. Caused a hell of an uproar around here.

    • Rudy is 100% correct. We have brought this up many times here. The reality is that it’s on the Democrats to fix it, their the politicians running the show in most if not all of theses areas.

  14. Hi Buckster…..very strange Grand Jury…..to say the least. I think the DA knew what would happen and just threw the evidence on the table…unorganized…with no discernible direction…if the facts are as has been presented, the jury probably made the correct decision especially with powder residue on Browns hands….but the DA has to live there after all this…..his hands are clean ut he does not need to be a DA any longer.

    I have served on one Grand Jury…and if a DA wants an indictment, he usually will get it….in this case, I really think he knew there was no case but politics said to pass the buck….So to speak.

    The violence…..it would have been there regardless.

    Happy turkey day to you and yours……

    • I’m a bit more cynical than you.

      I tend to lean towards the prosecutor actively presented it in such a way to all but ensure no indictment. It was his decision to go to a grand jury. It was his decision to run the grand jury in this manner (which seems to have varied greatly from the way in which he has run every other grand jury in his career).

      Do you really believe for a minute that had the prosecutor wanted an indictment he wouldn’t have gotten it?

      • Do you really believe for a minute that had the prosecutor wanted an indictment he wouldn’t have gotten it?

        If he wanted it, he would have gotten it. How many tax dollars should be spent on a trial that the prosecutor can’t win? See the Zimmerman trial if that even has a figure that is public.

        • I agree that the overwhelming likelihood is that Wilson would not have been convicted at trial. However, I also believe that there still should have been a full trial to determine his guilt/innocence.

          I don’t see a trial when someone is killed under some questionable circumstances (the facts are not as clear as you may wish to believe) as a waste of tax dollars.

          • I’m fairly good at this trial stuff. Remember I called Zimmerman innocent from the beginning! This is not trial worthy. A thug tried to take a gun from a cop. That’s really the story. He paid for his mistake. This kind of stuff happens everyday, but, most is ignored because it’s blacks killing blacks.

            • That’s the entire purpose of a trial…and why there probably should be one here.

              • So, you believe that everybody who is accused of something which is unpopular should be tried? That there is a lack of evidence is of no matter. That there is a lack of credible testimony is of no matter. Then, when the jury votes NO, everything will be just fine and dandy, the folks will go home to their domiciles and be satisfied. Somehow, the strains of “No Justice, No Peace” still keep wafting through my thoughts. .

                The events last night indicate to me that the next time something like this happens, regardless of the innocence of the cop or citizen, a less than honorable DA will get his ham sandwich indictment, proceed to trial and have Al Sharpton intimidate the jurors into convicting with threats of violence

                Ever read Tom Wolfe’s “Bonfire of the Vanities”?

              • If there’s a lack of evidence, let the prosecutor employ his discretion and not bring charges. But that’s not what happened here – the prosecutor decided to employ a grand jury to CYA but failed to actually seek an indictment.

                From what I’ve seen, heard and read, there is more than sufficient evidence IMO to go to trial. Do I believe a trial would magically stop the riots and violence? No, of course not. But that’s a different issue as to whether or not there should be a trial in the first place.

              • gmanfortruth says:

                I’ve been reading up on the evidence and testimony. The five charges that were brought before the GJ shows that the prosecutor did bring potential charges. After review of evidence, testimony and all the forensics, the GJ determined that the officer acted I self defense. Many on your side of the political can’t accept it. No different than the Zimerman case.

              • What evidence did you see or hear? Not being facetious here just looking at things based on my experience. For example the NY case with the choke hold, there is something there for a jury to decide. probably a manslaughter conviction possibility.

                The only thing I see that makes this trial worthy is the media mantra since it happened of UNARMED BLACK TEENAGER. Which, if you have ever been mugged by an UNARMED BLACK TEENAGER is BS.

                Happy Bird day by the way!

              • SK – for instance, there were clear inconsistencies in the testimonies. This is not the role of a grand jury to parse but for a trial.

          • Just A Citizen says:

            Buck

            Why should there be a trial if the evidence leads the prosecutor to belief he has no chance of prevailing??

            I think many folks were looking for a trial because they want to apply the same laws/rules about killing someone that apply to the rest of us. But the COPs have a different set of rules.

            So many of the arguments being made against Wilson before the Grand Jury verdict were irrelevant. NOT THAT I AGREE WITH THIS, but that is the core problem.

            It is the RULES OF ENGAGEMENT.

            Now to your other point, yes the Grand Jury proceedings were irregular. We may never know precisely why. Although there is certainly a large CYA component.

            Lets remember that the prosecutor was in the cross hairs himself, and that DOJ was intimately involved since August, and that DOJ and others have been trying to “direct” the responses and actions in Missouri.

            I am betting all this played a role in how this played out. No evidence as yet, speculation at best, but I don’t see how it could not have had an impact. Watched the cops interviewed late last night. Got the impression they believed things would not get out of hand, because of their interaction with the demonstrators before hand, and with Administration Officials. They were visibly “upset” about what happened and how quickly.

            The most curious thing about the Grand Jury, to me, was not how the evidence was presented or the lack of attempt to interpret, steer, etc., but that the prosecutor was not “asking for an indictment” of any kind.

        • I post a lot of links to videos of cops being piss poor. I feel that we all should hold cops to a high standard. Their human and make mistakes, but, some mistakes are just plain wrong and they should be held accountable. I have met many of our local cops, for good reasons 🙂
          Compared to what I post, it’s like night and day. With that said, I’m critical of our LEO’s, but in this case the evidence is overwhelming, he should not have been indicted.

  15. Just A Citizen says:

    Time for me to join Gman and his friends for a frolic around the conspiracy fire.

    THIS ladies and gentlemen is WHY the Ferguston Grand Jury even unfolded the way it did. The WHY it took so long, and WHY so many were given a chance to pile on the rhetoric and the WHY the Feds got involved then seemed to vanish-while trying to direct things behind the curtain.

    If your goal is to ORGANIZE what would you need to create an organized, orchestrated and National uprising?? TIME……………..

    From CNN:

    “(CNN) — In Atlanta and Boston and New York and Los Angeles, they marched by the hundreds or the thousands — blocking bridges, tunnels and major highways as they shouted their anger over a Missouri grand jury’s decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson.

    A day after St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch announced there would be no criminal charges against Wilson for the fatal shooting of Michael Brown, there were protests in more than 170 U.S. cities.

    In the Big Apple, protesters shut down lanes of the FDR, known more formally as the Franklin D. Roosevelt East River Drive, as they chanted, “Mike Brown! Mike Brown!”

    It was just one of several long lines of demonstrators make its way through the city. Police, who were nearby in large numbers, stayed back and let the marchers go.

    It’s not clear where the protesters were headed as they walked north up the FDR, but Tuesday’s events seemed more organized than those a night before.

    Some had handwritten notes on their chests: “Black lives matter.”

    My comment:
    SEE THAT………….”Black Lives Matter”……………Young upwardly mobile man claims his child’s life doesn’t matter in the USA. Same refrain, Coast to Coast. A great line that accomplishes two things.

    1. Maintains/instills GUILT among Whites, at least those not already suffering the same.
    2. Perpetuates the mythical “OTHER”/”SYSTEM”/”THE MAN” who is responsible for Black suffering of any and all kinds. In short, perpetuates the cynicism needed for the organizers to create what ever shit storm they want.

    “People hold signs as they march in Newark, New Jersey, during a rally on Tuesday, November 25. It was announced Monday that Darren Wilson, a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, would not be indicted in the August shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager. The grand jury’s decision not to indict Wilson prompted demonstrations across the country. See photos of the unrest in Ferguson

    Hundreds of demonstrators gather to protest on November 25 in Washington.

    Schoolchildren from the Potomac Preparatory Charter School take part in a “die-in” during a protest outside the Office of Police Complaints as part of a planned “28 Hours for Mike Brown” protest November 25 in Washington.

    Students rally in support of victims of police brutality at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis on November 25.

    Demonstrators gather November 25 outside the Minneapolis Police Department’s Third Precinct to protest Monday’s announcement.

    Protesters march up New York’s Seventh Avenue on Monday, November 24.

    A protester in New York scuffles with police during a march toward Times Square on November 24.

    Demonstrators gather around a fire in the streets of Oakland, California, on November 24.

    Protesters block Interstate 580 in Oakland on November 24.

    Seattle police attempt to push back protesters with pepper spray and flash-bang grenades on November 24.

    A Seattle protester pours milk in his eyes after being tear-gassed on November 24.

    A protester in Denver holds up his arms during a moment of silence November 24 at Civic Center Park.

    A crowd in Washington gathers outside the White House on November 24.

    Demonstrators march down a street in Washington on November 24.

    Community activist Najee Ali speaks in Los Angeles’ Leimert Park on November 24.

    Protesters in Los Angeles lie down in a major intersection to block traffic on November 24.

    Protesters march near Chicago police headquarters on November 24.””

    There was a shocking moment at a demonstration in Minneapolis where a woman in a group blocking an intersection was run over by a car. The Star Tribune newspaper reported that the driver of the car honked at the protesters before knocking a few people onto the hood of the vehicle and apparently running over one of the woman’s legs. She was hospitalized with “very minor injuries.”

    In Chicago, a few dozen protesters gathered Tuesday morning on a downtown street corner ahead of another protest at City Hall, CNN affiliates WGN reported. About 200 members of the Black Youth Project staged a sit-in outside Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s office Tuesday afternoon. They plan to be there for 28 hours.

    Protesters in the New York area briefly blocked one of the entrances to the Lincoln Tunnel Tuesday evening but then headed off to the city’s West Side.

    And at Union Square, about 400 people had gathered shortly after dark before breaking into groups of marchers.

    There were also large demonstrations in Baltimore, near Morgan State University, and in Atlanta, outside CNN Center and at a popular tourist shopping attraction.

    In Atlanta: ‘It’s a travesty’

    The Public Enemy anthem pumping from mounted speakers at a protest in downtown Atlanta captured the mood of the crowd Tuesday night.

    “Fight the Power,” the rapper’s voice shouted over the speaker. “Fight the powers that be. …”

    About 300 people tried to follow Public Enemy’s advice when they gathered to protest the grand jury’s decision.

    As helicopters circled above, black college students, white urban hipsters in skinny jeans, middle-aged socialists and black militants in berets gathered for a raucous rally to vent their anger at the events in Ferguson.

    “They have given us no justice! We will give them no peace,” the demonstrators chanted at they massed in front of the Underground Atlanta shopping district.”

    My comment:

    We just witnessed a Nationally orchestrated “demonstration” that took months to organize. If the Prosecutor had declared the shooting justified or if the Grand Jury had come back to soon, this would not have been possible.

    Cannot wait to find the whistleblower stuff down the road connecting certain “administration” operatives with this whole thing.

  16. Just A Citizen says:

    WHOA…………..The top contender for SecDef just took her name off the list. This could be one of the most telling things yet about the state of the administration. Family reasons was given, as is usually the case when the rats don’t want to be on board any longer.

    And buried within the story was this little gem:

    “A person close to Flournoy said she had concerns about the job, including whether she would be given more latitude than Hagel in policy making. Pentagon officials have long griped about White House micromanagement, and Hagel was largely seen as someone who would acquiesce to the West Wing.”

    Remember six years ago when I stated this was an issue with this administration? At the time we were arguing over the Stimulus and what was going on at the agency level. Well the top down supervision and control has never stopped.

    You now see a deliberate “leak” of concerns to the press designed to put certain people on notice. Also you are seeing the rats running towards the USS Billary as the current ship seems to have run aground.

    In case any of you had any doubts, there is little HONOR among the Professional Staffer Corp that makes up the Power Elite in Washington D.C..

    A place where your tie color, the knot and the shine on your shoes is more important than your ideas.

    You see Colonel, I am not surprised by your comments about the Pentagon. The same exists in the upper levels of all Federal Agencies back there. It has gone beyond Potomac Fever. If it wasn’t for the beautiful monuments and wonderful museums I would say it was time to burn the place to the ground and start over.

  17. In case any of you had any doubts, there is little HONOR among the Professional Staffer Corp that makes up the Power Elite in Washington D.C..

    Let’s fix this: In case any of you had any doubts, there is little HONOR among the Power Elite in Washington D.C.. 🙂 Now that’s better and probably more accurate 😉 I have no doubts that both versions are correct. I also agree about the museums and monuments, but we could use selective controlled burns to solve that problem 😀

  18. Great 8 minute video of the Ferguson violence. Couple things to note within it. Around the 6 minute mark, people are heard talking, “Gun fire and buildings burning and the cops ain’t doing nothing”
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/raw-courage-papa-johns-female-manager-defends-store-from-looters-with-bare-hands-video.html

    IMHO, something is very wrong with all of this. A criminal was shot and killed. They turn it into a racial thing. This isn’t the 60’s when black people were shot by white bigots. Many people (including my black friends in Ohio) are openly calling the rioters and race pimps “niggers”. At the same time, they feel bad for the good hard working black people who have nothing to do with it, yet their reputation is taking a hit because of the actions of a few (one black friend said these niggers make all black people look bad)

    I said it once before, today’s race relations is the fault of the Left wingers, the left wing media and the race pimps. It has gotten much, much worse since the head race pimp Obama took office. This is not by accident. It is fully intended. What a shame.

    • Something to remember Black man allegedly kills two white people very violently. The case was very public and a huge story with the trial on TV. Despite overwhelming evidence, black man is found innocent. Not one single riot occurred. No one marched to the court house in protest. No buildings or cars were burned in protests. No arrests were made as a result of any actions following the jury’s decision. You know who I’m speaking of 🙄

      • Dale A. Albrecht says:

        I followed the OJ case quite closely. I talked to a criminal defense attorney from Berkeley many times during the trial. His opinion was that the prosecution was deliberately throwing the case. They left holes so big in the case you could drive a truck through them and that is precisely what the defense did. Especially in the handling of the evidence. If the defense did not hit the soft lobs tossed to them there would have been ample grounds for a probable mistrial. The DA’s jury consultants had their analysis totally backwards on who to select for the jury. Many comments by the black women jurors after the trial substantiates that claim. The city deliberately chose their course of action especially after going through a few years before the Rodney King episode which resulted in the worst riots since the 60’s. What would have happened in LA if OJ was convicted of murder would have made those riots, post acquital, of the police officers of the Rodney King beatings look like a minor event.

  19. David Skekabim says:

    If the rioters had cited clear cases of police brutality or victimless crimes, then waged a full scale war on police, government, and voters, it would at least be reasonable.

    • Yes, if their cops are corrupt and not protecting the rights of the people, then the people have the right to rise up. This is not the case here. Actually, the cops failed the people by doing nothing while the city burned. They eventually arrested a bunch of people, after the damage was already done. Knowing that this could happen, as a business owner, I would have had armed security with orders to defend the property with lethal force. They would not have had to use any force, as their presence alone would have kept the coward thugs away.

      • David Skekabim says:

        I agree that the police should have done something to protect the property of business owners. And I would have done the same thing as you if I were a local business owner, never mind the police.

        My overall point is that they are unreasonable.

        They first base their anger on the unfortunate result of a policeman defending someone’s rights. He was actually doing his job.

        Then they decide to indiscriminately punish business owners for the actions of the police department, and apparently for no other reason than because they were a convenient target.

        If they had cited something like a history of police brutality or something, it would have been a legitimate gripe. If they had been discriminatory toward the police department for it instead of conveniently located businesses, …if they had chose to fight against the organized crime syndicate, if they had chosen to target only business owners that vote to force unjust rules upon them, it would have at least made sense.

        No, they just threw a temper tantrum.

        • Temper tantrum? Maybe. it looked more like desire and opportunity. Have you noticed that both the Trayvon Martin issue and the Brown issue are similar? Both violently attacked their killer, both were killed while attacking (yes, bull rushing is attacking). In both cases the victims had Stepfathers. In both cases parents claim that violence was not in their nature. This current event is about 1, yes one dead black teen. Since his death, over 220 young blacks have been killed in Chicago and there has not been one peep about those victims. Why, you ask? Because they were killed by other blacks. Apparently it’s OK for blacks to kill blacks, and blacks to kill whites and Hispanics too, but it’s NOT OK for whites to defend themselves against a violent black person.

          FUCK THAT!

  20. Warning, do not sip any beverage while viewing…

    http://www.americanthinker.com/cartoons/

  21. I want to know why these rioters are allowed to burn down businesses-I thought that was what the police were for-to stop people from breaking the law. Why wasn’t the National guard used-I could have sworn I read that they were supposed to be there to stop this type of thing.

    Does the black community not realize that they look and sound like the lynch mobs that they justifiably damn from the past?

    I keep reading that supposedly the police get away with killing black men specifically-well it is true that the police are treated differently when it comes to judging their actions while doing their job-but that difference isn’t based on the skin color of the people they shoot.

    • David Skekabim says:

      ” I thought that was what the police were for-to stop people from breaking the law. ”

      Police are supposed to be a security service hired by the community to protect the rights of the people from potential and/or active violators. (…like Mr. Brown)

      If the police enFORCE the ‘law’, they are simply thugs, hired guns for an organized crime syndicate called government.

      Race/creed is irrelevant.

    • VH

      I don’t think it’s one thing. You have thugs everywhere who will loot & riot given any opportunity, not excuse. You have black racists who make everything that happens some sort of white/black hate issue. And you have others trying not to let a crisis go to waste.

      http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/11/just_who_is_driving_the_new_civil_rights_movement_demonstrations_on_ferguson.html

      • All that is true-I personally felt like I was waiting for the curtain to rise on Act 2 of the Ferguson play-and even with all the damning of the political players in this drama-maybe partially because of it, I feel an underlying attempt to justify the actual actions of the looters. It’s everybody’s fault but the ones who actually started the fires, broke the windows, and all the other illegal, unfair actions that were taken. I do blame the inaction to stop these things on the government- mostly the federal government, not the police departments. I’m just tired of all the proclamations that the people are stupid-people are just pawns to the overpowering groupthink activists. If a person picks up a rock and throws it-they are responsible for their actions. It all just seems to be pushing the idea that government must act to protect the individual from themselves BS.

        • I wonder about the federal gov’s involvement. Have seen Homeland security had a fleet of SUV’s staged at a local hotel parking garage. A worker was fired for posting it to facebook. The MO Gov. (a Democrat) had already activated their national guard, so where were they? Locals were assured they would be safe and everything was under control. Did the decide to allow “small” rioting & looting? Give them two or ten blocks before responding?

          from the Daily Caller

          Missouri Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder questioned why the National Guard did not intervene Monday night to subdue the rioters and looters following the announcement that officer Darren Wilson would not be indicted for the death of Michael Brown.

          Last week, Dem. Gov. Jay Nixon activated the National Guard in preparation for the grand jury announcement, but did not end up utilizing them last night, when cars were smashed and destroyed and nearby businesses were looted and burned down.

          “The vast majority of Missourians are asking this morning … where were they last night?” Kinder, a Republican, asked Tuesday morning on “Happening Now.” “The law-abiding citizens and business owners and taxpayers of Ferguson, the St. Louis region have a right to ask this governor to answer some questions.”

          “Why were they not there at the first sign of an overturned police car or a smashed police car window with a show of force that would have stopped this?” Kinder questioned.

          “And here’s my question that the governor must answer,” said Kinder. “Is the reason that the National Guard wasn’t in there was because the Obama administration and the Holder Justice Department leaned on you to keep them out?”

          “I cannot imagine any other reason why the governor who mobilized the National Guard would not put them in there to stop this, before it started,” Kinder concluded.

  22. Snitches get more than stitches. Stealing a line from a commenter on another site,,,this is the Audacity of Audacity
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/11/25/first-pro-truth-grand-jury-witness-murdered-deandre-joshua-20-found-dead-yards-from-scene-of-michael-browns-death/

  23. AS far as them waiting to announce the verdict until night time-I too thought this was stupid but I read that they did this for two reasons-One -so that school children wouldn’t be out going or coming from school Two-so that people could get home safely from work and such before any trouble started. Makes sense.

    • The witness statements and names are not available, for obvious reasons. I think the witness statements can be found somewhere. It gives the cops side of the story, which is verified by some witness’s and forensics. The bottom line……Brown was a violent thug who is directly responsible for his own death. Just like Trayvon Martin, I might add.

  24. From Ted Nugent’s Facebook Page:

    Here’s the lessons from Ferguson America- Don’t let your kids growup to be thugs who think they can steal, assault & attack cops as a way of life & badge of black (dis)honor. Don’t preach your racist bullshit “no justice no peace” as blabbered by Obama’s racist Czar Al Not So Sharpton & their black klansmen. When a cop tells you to get out of the middle of the street, obey him & don’t attack him as brainwashed by the gangsta assholes you hang with & look up to. It’s that simple unless you have no brains, no soul, no sense of decency whatsoever. And dont claim that “black lives matter” when you ignore the millions you abort & slaughter each & every day by other blacks. Those of us with a soul do indeed believe black lives matter, as all lives matter. So quit killin each other you fuckin idiots. Drive safely.

    Read more at http://eaglerising.com/11880/rocker-ted-nugents-response-ferguson-causing-outrage-across-internet/#gjJBdjkxiRCPzGJH.99

  25. Change of pace…The roots of rap. Bout the only rap I can handle. How many pop culture references can you pick out? Then how long will it stay in your head today? 🙂

  26. David Skekabim says:

    http://truthseeker444.blogspot.com/2014/09/georgia-guidestones-2014-and-graffiti.html

    I couldn’t care less about any of it.

    …except Isis.

  27. G – this comment really sums up what I’ve been trying to get across about my concerns:

    “This move to morph a grand jury inquiry, which is typically a short rundown of the case for the prosecution, into a trial-like parade of mountains of evidence raises serious issues about the rights of Michael Brown’s family to have a fair process for their dead son”

    • As a non lawyer, the GJ is supposed to determine if the evidence warrants formal charges. This I’m cool with. I have always felt the GJ failed in doing the job they were given, and simply agree with the prosecutor. In most cases, a plea agreement will usually be agreed to that provides the system with funds, via fines. It also feeds the prison industrial complex, which we, as a country, have more people locked than any other. Think about that for awhile 🙂

    • Buck…you stretch this way too far. After Thanksgiving, you and I need to explore this. I think that the fair process of the policeman has been violated…..I have sat on a grand jury before and I have seen piles of evidence. I totally disagree that if a grand jury finds no evidence to indict….anything else is double “J” even to a civil suit.

      • What have I stretched too far? And how specifically has the fair process of the policeman been violated?

    • If all the info was not forthcoming, then it would have been a problem. If all the info is presented, it’s a problem. There is no answer to this.No solution . Someone will always scream foul.

      Unlike Professor Gruber, I tent to trust people, always have sometimes to my own peril. I think that these people had the time and the intelligence to sift through absolutely everything and come up with the same result that they would had the process taken a day and a half. Rush cop, try to take cops gun, be freaking out of your mind, …..get shot!

  28. I’m thankful for my SUFA friends. Enjoy you family, friends, and good food today everybody~ GO LIONS!

  29. It is a good thing that I was not governor…..I would have out the National Guard out on day one….weapons free, I do not and never will subscribe to the theory of appropriate response. One fire bomb, one brick bat through a window will get a bullet. You cannot stop force with equal force….you must be decisive and over powering.

  30. Happy Thanksgiving to all…..

  31. Happy Thanksgiving Ya’ll 🙂

      • David Skekabim says:

        Humans, mind body and soul, are a complex and magnificent creation with enormous potential.

        I suspect we were altered a long time ago, tainted, stifled. I also think we are intentionally being controlled in a way as to appeal to our selfish nature, thus further stifling our capacity for greatness.

        The antidote is, of course, love.

        Sadly, I see the example you cite as the minority, the exception.

        • I don’t know Dave. As I have stated, most folks around here are very friendly. When someone is in need of help, they usually get it, of course you just don’t hear about it because the MSM are too busy trying to mind fu*k the people into falling for their left wing ideology.

          An example is hunters. Many hunt deer but either have stopped eating the meat or don’t to begin with. The meat is processed and given to those in need, FREE! tons and tons of venison are donated each year. I know of 5 churches that give food to the needy on a monthly or bi-weekly basis. This includes vouchers for meat at the local grocery store during the holidays (a free turkey or ham). The elderly are well cared for as well, as lottery proceeds are used for them (that’s how I get paid, I’m a caregiver for the eldely who are disabled). The Counties,all have good programs and own and maintain apartment complexes for the elderly who don’t get much money. The State also provides them an addition health insurance plan (to pay what medicare won’t, plus some other features) for free as well. None of this is paid for with tax dollars. That said, I don’t consider it welfare or socialism. Just people who have chosen to be good toward their elders.

          With all that said, I do think the majority of people are good people. We are just inundated with all the bad by the media. Hope you enjoyed Thanksgiving, I certainly did 😀

          • David Skekabim says:

            I understand what you’re saying. I don’t mean to suggest that humans are incapable of selfless acts.

            I will clarify.

            Humans are hardwired to be predominantly selfish, to protect self interests as a primary default function. Only a minority are capable of overcoming it when tested.

            When there is plenty of opportunity, when it is easy or convenient to do so, people sometimes/often exhibit altruistic characteristics. But put them in a situation where there is any kind of personal risk involved (small or great), and the results are much different.

            I can’t honestly blame them when there is a high risk involved, but many times the risk is very low, and they still exhibit apathy to the degree of cruelty. It’s disgusting.

            It is apparent in such instances like when someone has been hit by a car or repeatedly stabbed. They’re laying on cold hard concrete dying, in obvious need of help, and people just walk or drive by and look at them. They would rather let someone die than to take a small measure of their time to assist another human being.

            • They would rather let someone die than to take a small measure of their time to assist another human being.

              Let’s look at why this may happen. Fear. No knowledge of First Aid (I can find many events where medical professionals and those who had this knowledge stopped and gave aid. Frankly, if I need medical assistance I don’t want a Walmart stocker with zero knowledge of first aid touching me. This leads to the next reason, lawsuits. People have been sued for doing the wrong thing when trying to help. As the saying goes “no good deed goes unpunished”.

              As you can see, people act (or don’t act) usually based on their knowledge base, not their selfishness. I know first aid quite well and would help anyone in need if that issue presented itself. My father has no knowledge of first aid and wouldn’t dare try to do something other than to talk to the victim and relay information and provide comfort. Most people with no knowledge may simply watch or move on (some can’t handle the sight of blood).

      • Very cool. I checked her crowdfunding page yesterday…after 7 hrs she had 17k. Just checked again,,,it’s at 242k. That’s awesome!

  32. Thought provoking article on the Convention of States idea:

    At every turn of those who have come up with alleged solutions to America’s problems, PH has always gone back and demonstrated the correct interpretation of the Constitution to address the federal government’s neglect for what they are limited to do and often their ventures into areas they are not authorized to legislate on.

    “They are scared of little 70 year old lady who wears glasses,” PH told FreedomOutpost. “They will get up on the stage against anyone else – but not me.”

    According to the press release regarding the event, “If Congress doesn’t follow the Constitution now, why would they follow it if we change it? Let’s defend it, not amend it.”

    Read more at http://eaglerising.com/11951/meet-woman-convention-states-fears/#77GSyPjoBVseYpMa.99

    • David Skekabim says:

      ” Let’s defend it, not amend it.”

      …or get rid of the need for it altogether.

      • I think you have made some great points as too why we need it!

        • David Skekabim says:

          Point taken.

          Although I will still argue that it is inadequate garbage. The US Constitution is a framework for coercive government. The Bill of Rights is about regulating rights as it pertains to government. It isn’t really about protecting rights.

          No form of social order will work unless it addresses the fundamental key issue of human nature. No government is going to do that because government actually promotes barbarism.

          Until you have a society whereby respect for the rights of your fellow man is the cornerstone, where it is done on the individual and/or popular willing accord of the average person, it will eventually fail.

  33. Simultaneously the broadcast division is defending their complicity in construct by spotlighting the process Prosecutor Robert McCulloch used to locate the truth. A process that really was brilliant fact-finding.

    You’ll notice the Grand Jurors were given the physical and forensic evidence outlines first; then, as each of the Ferguson Media Witnesses was scheduled to testify, they first watched the TV media interviews of the witnesses they were going to hear testimony from.

    That was a brilliant decision because it allowed the jury to know what was factually evident, then see what was claimed, and finally to hear what was stated in person. The contradictions were STARK.

    Obviously the entire “Hand’s Up” construct collapsed in a puddle of inconsistency, false statements, lies and outright intentional deception – totally disconnected from the scientific and empirical evidence.

    Dorian Johnson, Piaget Crenshaw, Tiffany Mitchell were the worst. Each lied in boundless proportions to provide the initial false narrative to the media. The remaining false witnesses just made up ‘word-on-the-street’ type facts to support their belief.

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/11/27/ferguson-grand-jury-transcripts-reveal-scope-of-witness-fabrications-and-inconsistencies-in-real-america-we-call-them-lies/#more-92938

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Which is why Buck was correct in pointing out the weakness of using “eye witnesses” to sentence someone to “death”.

      • This is correct.

        And T-Ray, to your point, the role of a grand jury is not to have a mini trial / document dump to determine guilt or innocence. It is for the prosecutor to lay the foundation for its claim and for the ppl to determine whether probable cause exists to proceed to trial.

        • Is not what this GJ went through exactly the process the DA goes through to determine probable cause? Does he not have to judge the strength of the physical evidence and the veracity of the witnesses prior to recommending a trial? Is not his objective justice for all not just the victim? Would he not be derelict in his duty if he knowingly prosecuted an innocent man or proceeded to trial knowing that he did not have sufficient evidence for conviction? Would this not be an injustice to the suspect?

          In this case, with the huge potential for riots and further loss of life, I think the DA was more than justified to ask 12 other individuals to review the evidence and render a decision as to probable cause.

          Note, the above article points out that is was not just a data dump. The DA guided them through a methodical and logical process in evaluating the physical facts and the witness accounts. I surmise that this process is exactly the process he has learned over the years from evaluating hundreds of cases personally.

        • “It is for the prosecutor to lay the foundation for its claim and for the ppl to determine whether probable cause exists to proceed to trial.”

          Seems to me that is exactly what he did.

          • No. Here, the prosecutor treated it more as a trial jury than a grand jury with him playing the role of prosecutor and defense. It was odd, to say the least.

            • I think you missed or ignored the nuance of my post-the Prosecutor did lay out his foundation for his case-that they didn’t have a case 🙂

              In both cases the prosecutors initially decided there wasn’t enough evidence to take to the grand jury. In the Martin case they took your second option and took it to the GJ the “normal” way because of the complaints from the community-and I’m having a real big problem with this normal word here as it relates to the Martin case it sounds like cherry picking info. to force prosecution even when it wasn’t justified-but now we have another case where the prosecutor took the complaints of the community into consideration but refused to just push for a trial when he didn’t think it was warranted. Two different cases-two different ways they were handled. Neither seems right-neither should have gone to the GJ-both did-which I wonder do you believe, was the closest to fair?

              How much, if at all, should the prosecutors pay to the discontent of the public as it relates to cases such as the Martin case and this one? Are there legal routes to be taken if the people disagree with the Prosecution?

              • Don’t ask me. I’m clearly biased on this — when an individual is dead and there is conflicting evidence and testimony, I believe there should be a mandatory trial.

              • You talk about conflicting testimonies but I think we both know that our law is based on reasonable doubt-so any conflicting testimony should help the defense not the prosecution. And most if not all of this conflicting testimony was addressed by the physical evidence-so on what grounds should a trial be mandatory?

              • Your post only highlights the need for a trial to make that determination.

                The standard for a grand jury is simply whether probable cause exists to believe a crime occurred.

              • I don’t think it does-the prosecutor normally makes this decision based on the evidence that is collected-your arguing that somehow a GJ making that decision is wrong-actually it sounds to me like the Grand Jury is irrelevant if all their, there for is to put their stamp of approval on the Prosecutors decision and not to actually look at the body of evidence.

                Now if it’s your stance that in any case involving a death there should be an automatic trial-I would still disagree-but at least we wouldn’t get back into the argument that someone would have to determine if the evidence was actually conflicting or not.

    • The prosecutor, who had already reviewed the evidence, may not have felt charges were warranted, but because of all the left wing hoopla over stuff they had ne knowledge of, he sent five possible charges to the GJ and then guided them through the evidence over the course of 25 meeting or so. It’s quite possible that all the evidence “clearly” had shown that the cop was justified in his actions. All I have heard is that there was not enough evidence to warrant formal charges, maybe it’s because the only formal charges that were warranted were on the actions of the victim. Except, he’s already paid the ultimate price for his actions. Being a bully and a thug and attacking someone smaller in stature who is armed will get the bigger person killed in many cases, skin color is not an issue in any cases of this nature, but rather the actions of the bully thug.

      If the victims of self defense shootings (by cop or civilian) are mostly black, then the problem needs to be addressed within the black community and changing the thinking of the thugs. Claiming racism everytime a white person kills a black person in self defense is ignorant and the thinking of morons.

      @Buck, I don’t think innocent people should be tried for a crime where the evidence doesn’t warrant charges, ever. An example I can give you is you stopped at a red light and were hit by a bicyclist who dies of his head injuries. While you did nothing wrong and acted within the law, the parents and friends think your guilty of vehicular manslaughter (and they get the help of the media and others). Do you think it fair that your life is ruined and you are bankrupted because you had to go to trial ?

      • Buck, too add to your car issue, there are conflicting witness’s, saying your purposely lerched forward (which you did no such thing) so the cyclist would hit you and the cyclist is a nice innocent black person with years of experienced cycling, while other witness’s refute that claim. You, of course are white, so now it has become a racial issue. Still think a trial should take place?

      • maybe it’s because the only formal charges that were warranted were on the actions of the victim. Except, he’s already paid the ultimate price for his actions

        Technical clarification here. As far as the case goes, Wilson is the victim, Brown is the suspect.

        • Not technically, but true. The GJ were looking at charging the cop, so technically, he was the suspect.

          But you are correct, the cop is the victim 🙂 How are you this fine day Anita? I hope that you and yours had a great Thanksgiving 🙂

          • Doing fine here G. Suddenly it’s winter here. Had some snow for a couple days then rain washed it away. Have a fresh 1/2 inch sticking to the ground again. It’s gonna be a long winter.

            • We have about 4 inches on the ground. It’s gonna warm up and melt, then winter will come back later in the week. Mostly gonna have a rain/snow mix Monday. Was hoping for snow 😦

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        Form those that may not remember a case in Durham NC a few years ago. The Duke LaCross team. The DA withheld exonerating evidence because it did not support his politically driven case. He went to jail, only for 24 hours, but the city and Duke University paid millions to the students charged. Unfortunately guys like Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton and the Black Panthers and MSM were let off the hook for race-baiting and crying for justice. Luck for the students there was a law intern who was on the ball and dug out a copy of the State Police Lab Results. Here also was a case where the high price lawyers were content to just keep soaking the parents and never sought out the lab results.

        • I do quite well. Just another politically motivated LIE from the Left. Our Justice system has been corrupted just as much as the Federal govt, most State govt”s and many local govt’s. The two corrupt political cartels are to blame. It’s not fixable, IMHO, through the ballot box.

          I hope you and yours had a great Thanksgiving Day and wish you and yours all the best in the future 🙂

        • Yes, I remember that case well. Charges never should have been brought.

          And perhaps that is true here as well, I don’t know. (Though there are plenty of inconsistencies in the testimonies and the evidence that appear to warrant a trial.) What is clear though is how peculiar the prosecutor ran this grand jury.

          • No matter what he did,you know he would be second guessed if the outcome were the same. Had it gone to trial and the officer found not guilty, the prosecutor would have been nit picked for “throwing” the case. That in turn would surely have given Eric Holder the ammunition necessary to launch a civil rights prosecution rightly or wrongly. Young Mister Brown, confronting the cop, was bent on murder & mayhem and was dealt with accordingly.

            • Who cares if he was second guessed? Because the situation now is any better!?

              In my opinion, he should have either 1) not brought charges if he deemed the evidence was insufficient and deal with the consequences or 2) ran a grand jury in the same manner as every other grand jury he runs, get an indictment and have a trial.

              Given (2), if there was a trial and a jury found Wilson innocent, OK then. At least all the evidence was presented in an open process with prosecutor and defense counsel, arguments made, and verdict reached.

              • If the DA had the amount of facts as I have seen….he should have not brought charges. I still say he passed the buck and document dumped….he was not interested in an indictment. He was interested in CYA…….which failed. Indictment or not, the result would have been the same.

              • THe end result, a dead person, resulted from that persons own actions. Had he not attacked the cop, as reported, had not stolen from a store that brought attention to himself, had not acted like a lawless thug, we would not be having this chat. It all comes down to personal responsibility. Mike Brown failed and paid with his life. THIS is what should be being talked about in the black community, but, personal responsibility isn’t a well know commodity there.

              • Think that in this climate it is a tough call. I tend to agree with your first point, there was no evidence of a crime yet, having been a minor government functionary in my time, I can understand the need to “get all the facts out there”.

                Based on some really simple forensic evidence, available from the beginning for all but the most blind to see, there was no case. Showing it to the Grand Jury and making it public in that manner was probably the most fair way to handle it.

                If you have ever been on the wrong side of a 20 second news bite, it is not pretty. Had I the computer skills I would send you a 20 second ABC sound bite from a dozen years ago when I had the privilege of being on the wrong side. Politics demanded that they attack my firm with strong allies both in the media and with a government agency yet, we were able to thwart and deflect them not with the facts but with a trick. They were not listening to facts.

                So, for future reference in addition to my famous suggestion that you can just about go anywhere in the world with a clipboard under your arm and a resolute attitude, you should also know that you should never ever allow yourself to be interviewed by the media unless you have a very large clock directly behind you (prevents editing)! In my case, a hostile thirty five minute interview became eight seconds long on the 11 O’Clock news.

  34. In the mail today, I received the following……..NOTICE OF CHANGES IN FEDERAL MEDICARE DEDUCTIBLES AND CO-PAYMENTS FOR 2015. Anybody on Medicare better sit down before you open it….

  35. David Skekabim says:

  36. David Skekabim says:

    I see the 2014 cube is removed.

    Is it starting to click in the heads of you fucktards that something is majorly wrong?

    Did you ever consider that maybe you should take a forthright honest approach?

    Here’s the part that really fucks with my head… I could be wrong, but I look at (among other things) the general position, distance to highway 77 (another key number), the distance to Guidestone Road, and somehow, I know that someone with a 11-12 inch shoe put the capsule there before the stones were ever put in place.

    Why not just dig it up?

    What are you waiting for?

    • I’m pretty up to date on these issues, why don’t you explain your point more clearly to those who aren’t? Maybe you can open up a eye or two 🙂

      • David Skekabim says:

        What happens when you combine state of the art technology, mind control, time travel, religion, human nature and stupidity?

        A: A great big enormously complex mess.

      • David Skekabim says:

        Gman,

        I am pretty sure multi-verse theory is correct.

        There is a way to switch or tune into consciousness from one ‘you’ to another, like a trade off, an exchange or displacement between two or more yous on different world-lines.

        A common side effect is insanity.

        I suspect this is what James Holmes figured out. He wasn’t a man that just flipped out and killed people. There is some kind of phenomena involved. In another universe, James Holmes is a brilliant world-renown scientist.

        Somehow, somewhere, I went back and marked my trail the whole way. I think I found it.

        HOLY SHIT!

  37. Someone on the Left please explain this, because it sure looks like it’s the blacks that are being the racist’s (which I have been saying forever) http://girlsjustwannahaveguns.com/stand-back-white-devils-rules-white-people-michael-brown-protest-nothing-racist/

  38. David Skekabim says:

    To whomever anonymous people it may concern; (You are apparently paying attention to what I post here…)

    When I see things like “711 game on” or “I am LIGHT, I am bright, etc..” I know what it means. I get the whole encrypted thing. I see the correlations and implications and whatnot. I have been paying attention and I am seeing most all of it.

    Here is my issue;

    I don’t know who you people are or what you want from me. I cannot discern a definitive frame of reference or context of what it and you people are about. As far as I am concerned, if you have dealings with me, then dispense with the bullshit.

    Without clear and concise direct communication, I cannot give credit to any of it. It only serves to stress me out and cause me fear anger and anxiety. I mean, c’mon …who are you people and how do you know this stuff?

    From my perspective, it is harassment. Are you showing support? For what purpose?
    Do you mean to kill me or something? Are you trying to drive me nuts? WHAT-DO-YOU-WANT?!?

    And as for you, little miss moon of Mary man-path/Gold Dust Woman 1008, …and associates, …
    I have been paying attention, watching you all closely, recording, analyzing and interpreting. I have been playing along pushing buttons and gauging your responses in spite of my previous state of extreme induced insanity.

    I see what you’re doing and you are not in a good position. Don’t act as if you are unwitting or unwilling in your endeavors either. You know damn good and well what you’re doing. And you’re not getting out of it.

  39. David Skekabim says:

    à ma bon ami,

    Je ne sais pas comment vous contacter. Mais je soupçonne que vous lisez.

    Je ne sais pas quoi faire de tout cela. Je ne sais pas à qui faire confiance. Je suis enclin à jouer la sécurité et ne pas faire confiance à personne. Je sais que vous pouvez comprendre cela.

    Je ne peux pas dire à coup sûr de votre intention ou un rôle dans tout cela, mais je vous remercie de me tolérer au moins et d’un soutien pendant mes moments difficiles. Je vous remercie d’être directe lorsque personne d’autre ne serait.

    Pour ce que cela vaut, je vous considère comme un ami encore.

  40. Good morning,Counselor…..I was reading along trying to keep up with things a little. I noticed one of your posts that interests me…

    “Don’t ask me. I’m clearly biased on this — when an individual is dead and there is conflicting evidence and testimony, I believe there should be a mandatory trial.”

    Why is a death any more important than stealing cigars when it comes to a trial? I would think, sir, that any criminal act would warrant a mandatory trial….it matters not to the degree nor the offense. It seems to me that, where trials are concerned, to make one trial more important than another opens up discriminatory practices……and I consider selective prosecution of criminal cases…a criminal case in itself.

    • BTW…….just how is that youngster of yours.

    • Death versus stealing cigars — I wouldn’t say that one is more important than the other when it comes to a trial. In both cases our system depends on a trial to determine guilt or innocence. However, the extreme result in the former, to me, would necessitate a trial where there is conflicting/inconsistent testimony, as opposed to first bringing it before a grand jury.

      The youngster is doing well – can’t believe how big she’s getting! Thanks for asking! How are you and yours doing?

  41. Juveniles beat man to death with hammers in St. Louis
    Posted 6:46 pm, November 30, 2014, by CNN Wire, Updated at 11:57pm, November 30, 2014

    Interesting…..everybody is in an uproar over a kid that gets gunned down in the commission of a crime…….all over the news, riots, burnings, gunfire……but somehow this is not news.

  42. Just A Citizen says:

    Buck

    Re; the Grand Jury issue.

    Given the Grand Jury’s role is to determine if there is reasonable cause to indict and proceed to trial, based on evidence provided by the Govt’s attorney, then I don’t see why taking the Brown case to a Grand Jury is really an issue.

    The Grand Jury could have decided there was reason to indict given the conflicting evidence and death. Yet they did not.

    So upon more reflection I don’t think this is the real issue. That being that the DA should have made a decision or specifically asked for and indictment. The Grand Jury function is the same.

    The real issue seems to be the way a Grand Jury actually functions in affect. That is it almost always sides with the Govt. and issues an indictment. So this created an expectation that I am not sure is proper.

    The other part, or issue within the Grand Jury, is how evidence is handled and how disparity in testimony is cross examined. I see MSNBC is now trying to hold the Grand Jury proceedings to the standard of a regular trial. I don’t think that is correct either, at least not under the existing system. However, the Govt. lawyers get to control the evidence presented and steer the Grand Jury in ways they could not do in a trial.

    But maybe that should be the standard. If it were perhaps we would reduce the court backlog with fewer indictments.

    I agree with your view that a trial should have proceeded given what we have been given. It may be that there is other evidence we don’t know about that would change this. But for now, a Trial would have forced a more deliberate evaluation of all evidence.

    Of course, I am not sure where Mr. Wilson could have hoped to get a “fair” trial or Mr. Brown to get “fair Justice”.

    Perhaps, as I have offered here before, we need to look at beefing up our court system in order to provide the Justice we pretend to stand for, which includes the “right to a speedy trial”.

    Buck, I have a couple of questions for you:

    Can a Judge override or prevent a Jury from considering “jury nullification” should they decide to acquit someone who for all practical purposes would normally be found guilty?

    In such cases does the finding of “innocent” constitute nullification itself or does the jury provide a statement with their “finding”?

    • You raise a very good point that perhaps should be the subject of more debate:

      “The real issue seems to be the way a Grand Jury actually functions in affect. That is it almost always sides with the Govt. and issues an indictment. So this created an expectation that I am not sure is proper.”

      I do not believe the grand jury should function as a completely independent body – that would result in essentially two trials in most instances, or as with what happened here given the prosecutor’s ability to control the evidence, question the witnesses, etc., avoid having an actual trial where one is warranted.

      • Just A Citizen says:

        Buck

        Agreed, the process should not result in Two Trials.

        But the Grand Jury should see contradictory evidence when the DA has it in possession. Or perhaps the defendants attorney allowed to cross examine witnesses or evidence presented, or be given a chance to enter contradictory evidence.

        Just seems far to easy to get an indictment these days. Then we see the State’s case fall apart when exposed to daylight.

        We often forget the real purpose of the Grand Jury was to put the process of formal accusations in the hands of our peers and not some Govt. appointees. Perhaps the issue with the Grand Jury is the same as with many other things. The “peers” have become numb to the idea that the Govt. can be corrupt and that it is ultimately their responsibility to maintain the liberties of a free people. Just sayin!

        My son just got done with jury duty. One juror decided the defendant was guilty the minute they were sequestered. Why? Because they would not have charged him if he were not guilty. The best they could do at that point was a “hung jury” because that one person was not going to change. So in this case, the Grand Jury’s decision in affect contributed to a finding of guilty. Yes, the rest of the jurors eventually rationalized this fellas guilt, within the “instructions” provided by the court.

        Which brings up the other issue I raised. The Jury’s right to step outside the Govt.’s established “sideboards”.

        • “Or perhaps the defendants attorney allowed to cross examine witnesses or evidence presented…”

          My fear is how does this not very quickly turn into a second trial?

          The purpose of a grand jury is not to determine guilt or innocence, but merely whether probable cause exists to believe a crime occurred. This is a relatively low threshold.

          • Just A Citizen says:

            Buck

            The only way to prevent that is with the “rules” of conduct.

            Innocence is not on trial but the “adequacy” of the “evidence” presented relative to the question of “reasonable evidence to indict”. Yes, this would be a slightly higher threshold than “probable” since almost anything can be shown “probable”.

            • From experience, Grand juries are out of hand in most places and just do what the prosecutor wants. Charge with “A”, plea offer to “B” and collect heavy fine and maybe feed the prison industrial system. It’s about the money most times with a corrupt system that is more often broken than not. What I have learned from experience is that a Judge will actually BREAK the law to collect a fine. If you like I can explain in detail.

              As a rule, never give up your right to a jury trial. It’s expensive and prosecutor’s will bail if they know they can’t win. In the Ferguson issue, I think the prosecutor knew he would never get a conviction. Rather than spend millions in a very public trial (where he get’s embarrassed and not reelected) he let the Grand Jury jump under the bus. Wise man that prosecutor 😉

            • Good Morning JAC…..I fear that the ‘rules of conduct” would not apply nor be adhered….look at what has already happened. In this particular case, the normal rules of conduct were ignored…..in addition, I fear that this administration with its ” selective prosecution ” ideas have become the new norm. It is beyond me how anyone can decide which laws to adhere to and which ones not to adhere.

              Look at how the rules of conduct have been ignored with the IRS, Homeland Defense, INS, Attorney General, and the list goes on. Look at how the Constitution has been ignored and is being ignored at this posting. So, the rules have been thrown out….and the new norm has been set. Do you think for a minute that the Repubs are going to sit back? They will do exactly the same thing that the Dems have. There are no rules….not any longer.

              • Just A Citizen says:

                d13thecolonel

                Good morning back at ya.

                I AGREE.

                We are seeing the result of the “activist” legal doctrine called “living document theory”.

                That and the Wizard mentality that exists in the legal “profession”.

                If you recalled, I declared that Robert’s rationalization of the ACA TAX was the notice that the Constitution was officially dead. Some people just haven’t realized it yet.

  43. David Skekabim says:

    https://www.au.org/church-state/december-2014-church-state/au-bulletin/navy-approves-military-s-first-atheist-lay

    Navy Approves Military’s First Atheist Lay Leader

    December 2014
    AU Bulletin

    Chief Petty Officer Martin Healey has received approval to become the Navy’s first atheist lay leader. Healey, who serves on the amphibious assault vessel USS Makin Island, completed lay leader training and received an endorsement from Paul Loebe of American Atheists in order to be considered for the role.

    Advocates for diversity in the military hailed the decision.

    “It’s time to set aside semantic barriers and recognize that many military personnel are good without a god and that they’ll be better with equal accommodation,” said Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. “That means chaplain services, lay leaders and Humanist chaplains, not just the right to sit in a corner alone while others pray.”

    The position of lay leader, while not identical to that of chaplain, allows Healey to organize and facilitate group meetings, and it officially recognizes the presence of non-theists onboard.

    A group called the Humanist Society continues to press for a full-blown humanist chaplain. Last month the organization filed a lawsuit against the Navy on behalf of Jason Heap, a humanist celebrant who has been denied status as a chaplain by the Department of Defense.

    “Dr. Heap’s qualifications and experience far exceed the standards articulated by the Navy for accepting applicants,” the Heap v. Hagel lawsuit asserts. “The Navy denied his application because of his Humanist beliefs.”

    The lawsuit says that 3.6 percent of members of the military identify as humanist.

  44. David Skekabim says:

    https://www.au.org/church-state/december-2014-church-state/featured/taboo-in-tallahassee

    Taboo In Tallahassee
    Fla. Officials Say They Have The Right To Eject ‘Offensive’ Holiday Symbols From Statehouse

    December 2014
    Featured
    By Simon Brown

    Last December, the rotunda of the Florida State Capitol in Tallahassee hosted a number of privately erected holiday symbols.

    Many were what you would expect to see in December: a Christmas tree, a nativity scene and a menorah.

    But a few were a little unusual. The rotunda played host to a six-foot tall “Festivus” pole – a reference to a fake holiday featured in the 1990s sitcom “Seinfeld” – made out of 14 empty cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. Not far from that was a depiction of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a symbol of a web-based parody religion often associated with non-belief.

    But there was one symbol that was not welcome: A display proposed by the Florida affiliate of the Satanic Temple was denied space in the rotunda because state officials felt it was “grossly offensive.” Temple members disagreed, but state officials ignored the Temple’s request to identify what about the display was offensive. Because the Temple made its request in December, it didn’t have enough time to fully challenge the officials’ decision, which came just one week before Christmas.

    This year the Satanic Temple planned ahead. With the help of Americans United, the group in October submitted a new request to hang its display inside the capitol rotunda. Temple officials are awaiting a decision.

    The proposed display is a diorama that depicts an angel falling into a pit of fire above the caption: “Happy Holidays from the Satanic Temple!” Stories of fallen angels are common in the Bible, and the Temple’s display even contains a Bible verse. It quotes Luke 10:18, which reads, “And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”

    The battle over symbols in the capitol rotunda goes back a few years. Until 2013, the only holiday displays allowed in the rotunda were a Christmas tree and a menorah. Apparently, some state officials wanted to add a dose of religion and accepted a request to display a crèche from the Illinois-based American Nativity Scene Committee. To do that, the officials had to turn the rotunda into an open public forum last year – or so they said.

    Ben Wolf, Florida Department of Management Services (DMS) director of communications, told the Tallahassee Democrat in December 2013 that any holiday display is allowed as long as there is space available and certain guidelines are met.

    Those rules state that displays must not hinder the flow of traffic inside the capitol building or block any permanent installations. There is also a height limitation of six feet. Beyond that, the rules said nothing about appearance or content of images and didn’t attempt to define what might constitute an offensive display.

    In fact, the rejection letter the Satanic Temple received last year made no mention of a violation of any of these requirements. Instead, DMS told the group its display was denied because it is “grossly offensive during the holiday season.”

    That description seemed to be at odds with the Satanic Temple’s stated intent. In its application, the organization said its five-foot by five-foot dioramas “of religious symbols and images that adhere to community standards… contribute to the plurality of the community by representing the spirit of good will from other faiths.”

    But DMS was not swayed, and since its denial came Dec. 18 – just 13 days after the proposal had been submitted and only seven days before Christmas – the Satanic Temple was left with little time for recourse. The Temple did, however, attempt to clarify what exactly was offensive about its image, but it never received a response from DMS.

    “In a nation that respects religious liberty, viewpoint discrimination is simply intolerable,” Satanic Temple spokesman Lucien Greaves said in an October 2014 statement. “Our holiday display sends a very important, affirmative message that goes above and beyond that of superficial season’s greetings. It’s a message of religious freedom and church-state separation expressed in the state’s neutrality.”

    Further, it seems not everyone shared DMS’s assessment – even representatives of religious organizations.

    “I just have to laugh,” Pam Olsen, with the Nativity Scene Committee, told the Palm Beach Post last year. “If they want to get me mad, it’s not working. I think it’s great because it just brings more attention to Jesus.”

    (Temple members don’t literally worship Satan, nor do they engage in any illegal activities. Rather, they use the archetypal symbol of a fallen being who dared to challenge God to promote humanistic values such as empathy, personal autonomy and empirical reasoning. In a recent press statement, the Temple said, “The temple is atheistic and does not believe in a supernatural Satan – rather, it sees Satan as a symbol of the Eternal Rebel in opposition to arbitrary authority.”)

    Hoping for a different outcome this year, the Temple enlisted the help of Americans United.

    On Oct. 15, AU sent a letter to DMS along with an application for the Temple’s display. In its letter, AU said the state cannot deny a display in a public forum simply because some may consider it offensive. “Members of the religious majority are sometimes offended by the beliefs of religious minorities, and vice/ ­versa,” the letter noted. “But the Satanic Temple is not required to censor itself in order to take advantage of a forum supposedly open to all.”

    The letter also made note of DMS’s potential violation of the Temple’s constitutional rights.

    “Any rejection of the Satanic Temple’s display based on its potential offensiveness would constitute viewpoint discrimination in violation of the First Amendment’s Free Speech Clause,” the letter asserted. “In addition, the policy provision banning ‘offensive’ speech is unconstitutional on its face, because it gives the Department unfettered discretion to suppress unpopular messages.”

    Perhaps in preparation for another dispute with the Satanic Temple, DMS re-wrote its policy to include a prohibition on so-called “offensive” displays. Americans United, however, argued that the Constitution doesn’t permit the government to decide whether or not speech is “offensive” or to exclude speech from a public forum on that basis.

    “Government officials have no right to determine what is ‘offensive’ when it comes to religion,” said Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, in a statement. “If public space is open to all, that must include groups that some people may not like.”

    Americans United initially asked DMS officials to respond to the Satanic Temple’s request by Oct. 29. The officials ignored the request, so on Nov. 6 AU attorneys upped the ante. They wrote to the officials again and told them that if they did not reply by Nov. 14, Americans United would file suit. (The matter remained unresolved as this issue of Church & State went to press.)

    Meanwhile, media attention about the story led some people to overreact. One Ohio man emailed Americans United and vowed to destroy any Temple display that was brought to his community.

    “I live in New Paris, Ohio, and I ABSOLUTELY DARE YOU to try and put up a Satanic display in our courthouse,” he wrote. “I WILL DESTROY THAT DISPLAY BEFORE IT IS EVEN FULLY ASSEMBLED!!! I will also physically remove anyone who tries to put up a display of that nature. Try it. I dare you.”

    AU attorneys say they won’t be intimidated by such threats if they arise in Florida. They point out that state officials simply can’t create an open forum and then deny groups with views deemed unpopular access to it.

    If the matter ends up in court, AU will argue that the Satanic Temple’s free-speech rights have been violated.

    “The First Amendment applies to all religions, not just popular ones,” said AU Senior Litigation Counsel Gregory M. Lipper in a media statement. “Since it has opened the Florida State Capitol to private speech, the state must include everyone, even those whose religious beliefs it finds ‘offensive.’”

  45. David Skekabim says:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2014/11/14/40c49d06-6c41-11e4-a31c-77759fc1eacc_story.html

    Washington Cathedral’s first Muslim prayer service interrupted by heckler

    By Pamela Constable November 14

    In a corner of Washington National Cathedral, several hundred Muslim worshipers and other invited guests gathered Friday afternoon for a first-ever recitation of weekly Muslim prayers at the iconic Christian sanctuary and to hear leaders of both faiths call for religious unity in the face of extremist violence and hate.

    The Arabic call to prayer echoed among the vaulted stone arches and faded away, followed by an impassioned sermon from Ebrahim Rasool, a Muslim scholar who is South Africa’s ambassador to the United States. Rasool called on Muslims, Christians and others to come together and make “common cause” in the fight against extremists who appropriate Islam.

    “We come to this cathedral with sensitivity and humility but keenly aware that it is not a time for platitudes, because mischief is threatening the world,” Rasool said. “The challenge for us today is to reconstitute a middle ground of good people . . . whose very existence threatens extremism.”

    The event was closed to the public, and there was heavy security, with police checking every name and bag. Organizers from several area Muslim institutions said there had been concerns about security and threats after the event was publicized and that they and cathedral officials wanted to limit it to a small and selected group.

    Nevertheless, the carefully scripted ceremony was marred once when one well-dressed, middle-age woman in the audience suddenly rose and began shouting that “America was founded on Christian principles. . . . Leave our church alone!” She was swiftly ushered out by security aides, and the service continued.

    Numerous speakers, including cathedral officials and local Muslim leaders, echoed Rasool’s message about the urgent need for religious understanding and collaboration. Most made pointed references to the symbolism of the majestic Christian building, where rugs had been laid for prayer.

    The Very Rev. Gary Hall, dean of the cathedral, spoke of Saint Benedict, who he said believed equally in the importance of prayer and hospitality. Marveling at the sounds of Arabic prayers, which he called “a beautiful sacred language in a beautiful sacred space,” Hall said he hoped the service would serve as the start of more efforts to work together for good.

    Other speakers said they hoped the service would help correct some Americans’ misperceptions of Muslims as extremists and reinforce tolerance among faiths.

    “Salaam, shalom, peace. You are all so very welcome here,” said the Rev. Canon Gina Gilland Campbell, the cathedral’s director of liturgy, in an open greeting.

    After the hour-long ceremony, which was covered live by several Arabic-language television channels, soft drinks and sweets were served to the guests, a mixture of people chosen to represent local mosques, churches and synagogues. Many seemed touched by the service, and several said they hoped the message would reach Muslims and others in the war-torn Middle East.

    “I was very moved,” said Arif Ali, a lawyer in the District who brought his 12-year-old son, Zayd. “It really makes one think about the common heritage and values in Christianity and Islam.”

    Rashid Makhdoom, a retired engineer from Potomac, said he believes that the message and symbolism of the event will “reverberate throughout the world.”

    “It should be a lesson for Muslims everywhere that we and Christians are all one,” he added.

    The service developed out of a relationship between Campbell and Rasool, who worked together on a memorial service for Nelson Mandela. The intent was to make a statement about religious tolerance that would resound around the world.

    It was not without critics, however.

    In a Facebook post Thursday, the Rev. Franklin Graham, who heads the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, said that it was “sad to see a church open its doors to worship of anything other than the One True God of the Bible.” As of late Friday, 64,000 people had “liked” the post.

    • David Skekabim says:

      People of differing sects who worship the god of Abraham decide to get together in a demonstration of harmony. …and a Christian fundamentalist decides she is going to cause a disruption.

      As tempting as it is to ridicule her, a big part of me wants to listen to her, maybe try to understand her issue as to work it out.

      I have talked to many people from a similar position to her though, and I can just about guess the likely outcome.

      • Just A Citizen says:

        David

        It is quite easy to understand her feelings, and I might add they are in fact appropriate.

        Islam does not SHARE the same beliefs in God or God’s laws as Christianity. It is a Christian Church. Why should she be any happier about Muslims invited in a “closed” ceremony as any other non Christian organization which opposes Christian beliefs? Say Satanists for example.

        Yes, this is a nice attempt at making people think about cooperation. But FACT is that both religions at best tolerate the other. At worst they are in opposition, due to Islam’s tendency towards forced conversion versus the preaching of the Christians. And of course the tribal wars of the old world.

        Now lets pose this notion. If the PURPOSE was to show the world the commonality of the two and especially the tolerance and “moderation” or the “moderate” Muslim world, then why was this service not conducted first in a Mosque??

        Seems to me that given the stated goals the optics were ass backwards.

        Oh, and I am not sure that a woman defending her “church” against “others” is necessarily evidence of a “fundamentalist Christian”. Certainly one who is not polite, but fundamentalist not. Especially given the non-fundamentalist nature of the modern Catholic Church.

        I am betting that in the radical parts of the world this is being played as Muslim “victory” over the “stupid Christians”. As well as a “hit list” of public figures who need to be eliminated for the blasphemy.

      • Oh, look! How absolutely perfect. 3 times. 3 blessed, blessed times. In a row. You have denied God! Sound familiar? What are the chances of that happening? The Lord does work in mysterious ways. I hope you’re proud of yourself. Sucks to be you David. Have fun in your misery.

        • Just A Citizen says:

          Anita

          Tough weekend?? Seems your stretching the “denying God” a little there. Although I love the irony of 3 sequential posts challenging “Christian” dogma and political influence.

          • It’s weird. I’ve been thinking lately that I’m pretty well at peace and thankful for what I have. I had the best Thanksgiving, just me and the kids. Couldn’t have been happier. I came here and saw those posts and I got angry instantly. I think they’re calling it bitchcraft now! You’re right, I did stretch it some…but to me..it fits. Don’t care what anyone else thinks. They have a higher power than me to answer to. Hope all is well in JACland. 😉

            • Think you can help by asking the Big Guy in the Sky for better weather? He might listen to you 🙂

            • Just A Citizen says:

              Anita

              Very well here, although the bitter cold has set in AGAIN. No snow however.

              Also had a great weekend with ALL kids attending. But like you, found myself tense and bit angry last night and this morning.

              Maybe all is not as well as we think??

              Or maybe, just coming down off the sugar high of to much pie…… 😉

              Big hug for you this morning.

  46. Just A Citizen says:

    Opinion on the long term world condition. At least one.

    The more this crap continues the greater the chance for a GLOBAL Religious War. One the Muslim faith will not survive, at least in its current form. One that will potentially lead to the Second Dark Ages, where murder and war continue for generations.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/world/africa/kenya-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

  47. Anybody on here that remembers the 50’s and 60’s…….Do you think that the racial issue has been set back by decades? I firmly believe that the POTUS, the AG, Sharpton etal…..have purposely set back the gains that have been made.

    When I think back on it…..President Nixon’s administration was Romper Room compared to this one in terms of violating rules of procedure and law.

    • Unfortunately, you and I have lived too long and have not developed dementia.

      I have pointed out time and again that Nixon was accused of having the enemies list, siccing the IRS on the enemies, running an illegal war, spying on the enemies, etc. This guy does it and out in the open and nobody does squat.

      Coming from a long line of Pennsylvania coal miner democrats I broke with that party when Robert Kennedy ran for the Senate. Somewhere along the line I remember hearing him say off handed, “Sometimes the end justifies the means”. That is one that no matter how hard I try I can never agree with. Better to lose than to violate principle, corrupt yourself and in effect become as bad as the person/thing you are opposing.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      d13 and SK

      I remind you once again of the comment made to me in the early 70’s by a Dem. party leader.

      “Welfare is a small price to pay to keep them in the cities.”

      And YES, I remember the 60’s quite well (remember I am not far behind you two). And YES, this administration has set things back but worse yet, they did NOTHING to address the sickness their own party helped create.

      Maybe we should be thankful, however. I guarantee if they developed a “proposal for action” it would include BILLIONS of NEW Federal spending.

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