I am a (pale) white male living in middle America. I recently have spoken to two black male (African-American) friends on the Ferguson shooting and unrest. (PS, they are not offended by the term black, nor I white or many other descriptive terms) One friend is outraged insisting race has to be a factor in the shooting and acquittal. He has been the target of profiling and I believe him to be correct in many of his experiences, he was guilty only of being black. But I too have been “profiled”, many times as a teenager & young man. I think nearly everyone in America has felt themselves subject to unfair treatment at the hands of multiple “civil servants”. Life ain’t fair.
Our other friend is also a cop. He was reluctant to offer an opinion on Ferguson. I pressed him, what would he do as a police officer facing a 300 lb., 6’8″ Michael Brown. “Man, I don’t know”. “It would be tough.” But if someone grabs and punches a cop like that, he will not be walking away? “No, they’re gonna take him down”. Right, whatever force required…. Necessary force.
What bothers me most is the media generated frenzy over this and Travon Martin. I’m not happy or wishing anyone death, but in both cases the evidence shows them to be the aggressors, not the victims. I asked the first friend if he had heard of John Crawford. No, he had not, but after my pestering, now he does. A 12 yr old was shot in Cleveland for holding a BB gun. How can that be, the media cries! Another innocent child shot for no reason except being black!
Sorry, but I can’t agree on this one. A shame? Yes, a tragic shame. But the police were called saying he was waving & pointing a gun at passer’s by. The “gun” also had the orange safety tip removed, which may or may not have had an effect. They were responding to a deadly threat. I wish we were not in a world where police are so keyed up to threats but there have been mass shootings by 12 yr old’s and younger. Had the child done everything perfectly, I would like to think it would have been one of those memorable life experiences for all. But he didn’t. I don’t blame him for not understanding a life or death command to “drop it” or “show me your hands”. I don’t blame the parents for him being out on a park bench with a BB gun that looked like a real gun. I don’t blame the cops. Blame won’t help here…
I asked my friend his thoughts on the Garner Grand Jury verdict. He was surprised the protests were so peaceful. He said he hoped the “black community would unite and continue to protest this crime.” I asked him if he was prejudice? WHAT? Why would you ask me that? Because even though I agree with you on the NY jury decision, you excluded me from your protests. I don’t agree they did it because he was black & the point there is you or I could never prove it anyway. You can prove they violated their “no choke hold” procedure. You can prove excessive force. You can prove involuntary manslaughter. But if you make it about race, you lose me.
I think we should be having a conversation about police use of excessive force. I don’t see the media, the president or any of those with the ability to have these conversations truthfully seeking to have them. The one’s they champion are the wrong examples. John Crawford was, IMO, “gunned down”. As with the 12 yr old, police were advised someone had a gun and was threatening others. The caller has now admitted he lied.(1) He made two calls claiming Crawford was loading an assault rifle, pointing it and children, etc… Here I am tempted to blame and use some name calling, but I’ll leave that to others. But even with those calls, as I see it, the police did not follow procedure. The shot an innocent man in the back without properly evaluating the situation or allowing him a chance to surrender. And again I say, race was/is not a factor.
But excessive force? That is what I see with Garner. I think police should be judged and held accountable when they exceed their authority. Are they public servants or our masters? Sometimes that happens.(2)
Springsteen wrote “American Skin (41 Shots)” to protest the police shooting death of Amadou Diallo. Yes, a black man. The defense is he reached for his wallet/ID. Right or wrong, police perceive any attempt to reach into pants/pockets, etc, as a likely threat. They react as if you are reaching for a gun.(3) If there is an honest desire to have a “conversation”, I say we have to leave out the race card. Since the media won’t, maybe we should ask, who is paying for or supporting these protests?(4) It appears to be an assortment of Marxists, Socialists, Islamic, immigrants rights, black rights, progressives, etc.. Or Obama’s true supporters. Are there any “Blue Dog” Democrats left in congress? Seems they have all been driven out by the extreme left-wing. This extreme left-wing is driving the mob’s and inciting racial tensions, civil & police relations and simply inciting violence. Violence feeds on violence. Hit a cop & he hits back. Then others get involved.
One way to control a conversation is to frame it in a way that favors you position. Abortion? The left will start it with a serial rapists, HIV positive, who has impregnated multiple teens. Defend that “righities”. In the same way, police violence is framed as racism. In the cases of Martin & Brown, it appears they were the aggressors. They initiated violence. Pity the black persons on those juries who could not convict a white man for self-defense. They face relentless peer pressure for not being racist. Had the media used Crawford for their argument, the majority of Americans would have joined in the outrage. The leftists pushing this do not want that! Instead they use instances where the majority will not be swayed be accusations of racism where simple, self-defense is obvious. They are not being merely disingenuous, they are deliberately starting with a false premiss to then use it to propagandize the event. If you don’t agree and support their position, you are a racist. They want to lose this battle!
If these left-wing agitators are Obama’s supporters, what is it they (and Obama) want? Violence just for the blood? No… To see a bunch of cops killed or injured? NO, because President Obama is pretty much the top cop. Department of Justice, Homeland Security, FBI all answer to him. So why would Obama want this tension? Why would he court riot’s? Well the left is always wanting bigger government. Communism with a small “c”. Many of our inner cities are distressed. Detroit is bankrupt and has cut off the water to thousands for non-payment. The UN has even investigated for human rights violations. Tens of thousands of Americans living in poverty are being told the rich or the whites or the police are responsible. “The Republicans don’t care about you poor people, they want you to starve.”
So what is the goal is creating unrest? I think just to grow the government. Senator Obama campaigned and called for a civilian national defense force equal to our military. Everybody at the event cheered. Every conservative/Republican/libertarian/ thinking person shouted WTF!!! (WTF=where’s the fire)(Volkswagen owners say where’s the Farfegnugen) The L.A. riots were long past. We had two wars going, but those were outside threats. None of those cheering Obama supporters asked, why? What is the need for this super civilian defense force? And I think Obama may be creating the need for that force. What a play! Blame the police for violence so he can hire even more police to “suppress” the violence….. And the people who his police force will battle were the ones who elected him. And who says voters are stupid?
(2) http://www.myfoxny.com/story/23695543/cleveland-police-suspend-63-officers-over-deadly-chase
(3) http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/black-cop-kills-white-man-media-hide-race/
(4) anthinker.com/articles/2014/12/who_is_leading_and_financing_the_orc_army_of_the_left.html
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http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/05/ivy-league-professor-praises-white-people-who-are-ready-to-commit-race-suicide-after-ferguson-video/
What do you expect from academia…..Obama surrounded himself with academia and look at what is happening…..I am telling you…..race relations have been set back decades and done so purposely. It is the chicken little theory now…..you hear cries of racism and it is like saying ” Oh look, a squirrel ” . What is astounding is the age of the protesters who have NEVER SEEN IT…….lol
Have to agree Colonel. As a kid I welcomed “the New Frontier:” of JFK, staffed with the best and the brightest. Then there was that Vietnam thing after the Berlin Wall and of course October of ’62 when they almost blew up the world. Never quite looked at it the same after that.
I think it was Bill Buckley who once said he would rather be governed by the first 100 names in the Boston Phone book than the United States Senate!
Good Morning, Stephen…..yes, we are old enough to remember even the Eisenhower days and the school drills of ducking under desks in the event of nuclear war….the panic and the building of bomb shelters in back yards and people stocking up on batteries, food, water…the advertisements on television ( in black and white, of course ) of ladies wearing the Donna Reed dresses and learning how to stock a bomb shelter…and smiling. I was a freshman at military school ( A FRESHMAN and not a FIRST YEAR PERSON ) in 62…when even then we all went on alert as a school kid.
What I see today is a return to the hatred and vile that was back then….and this hatred and vile is not because of the police, per se, but because of the attitude of the Justice Department and the POTUS….and especially the academia of today. It is a bad thing that is happening right now.
It is amazing how many people believe in the internet for truth and quote Wikipedia which is about as far from truth as one can get….
Anyway, keep yer power dry and yore back to th’ wind…..watch yer top knot, if you have one. ( Mine left some time ago ).
Something else, Stephen……remember the hoopla when Nixon was POTUS and resigned? Watergate is NOTHING compared to what is happening now with the IRS, the State Department, the EPA…..and the circumventing of our Constitution. It is unbelievable. This POTUS and his administration, makes the Nixon era look like romper room rejects.
Yup. Absolutely!
Ok I can remember seeing Nixon resign, and was old enough to understand that he resigned…you mentioned Oct 62…what’s up with that? Curious because I arrived in Nov 62.
You know the answer, just not the date. Cuban Missile Crisis. We might should also include Bay of Pigs invasion & should that have resulted in calls for impeachment…
As Norm Schwarzkopf said about his experiences with a minefield, “Oct. ’62, It was real intense!” SAC was on Defcon 2. If somebody sneezed the wrong way Anita, you and I for that matter would not be here.
Regarding the Bay of Pigs. That I think was a Charlie Foxtrot from the get go. All the planning had been done in the Eisenhower Administration. Doubt JFK should have gone ahead with it unless he was 100% on board. No doubt it is one of the things that led to Russia placing the missiles in Cuba. But, let us all remember that the CIA, Allen Dulles or not, has a consistent track record which is usually wrong and seems to be 9/10ths based on wishful thinking such as, “The people will rise up and topple the statues of: Mao-Lenin-Fidel-Ho-Saddam (choose one).
Yep, it was intense…..I remember definitely watching the ships turn away……DEFON 2, and all the bombers flying to fail safe points.
Got it! Grampa used to say..”Nothin good about Cuba except the cigars”
Hey JACSTER…..good morning from the Lone Star State….was wondering if you saw the videos of the protest march in Dallas? If you get a chance to see them, look at the background. The protests were uneventful as they were guided down the streets by permit. In the background, look at the shop owners and the Dallas police….all standing in their respective doorways of their shops….and all visibly armed…both black and white business owners.
The protest march lasted about an hour and it was estimated that 150-200 showed up. No broken windows, no rocks…..just a peaceful protest.
Pretty amazed Detroit has been basically behaving too.
Didn’t the cops basically back off awhile back?
Yeah ,,til Duggan (white) got elected a year ago and appointed a new chief (black), who’s kickin ass and taking names.
I have to agree that race relations have taken a huge turn for the worse. How many video’s and links I have posted about the barbarian thug blacks attacking white people? The number is sad, especially when just 6 years ago things were way better.
What is really sad, and for many just plain scary, is that as a white person, I am hated because of my skin color (who’s the real racist’s here). I was raised to judge people by their character, not the color of their skin. I remember in high school at lunch time, it was blacks versus whites in touch football, almost everyday. It was a blast and everyone always shook hands at the end. There was no hate, but respect for each other as people. Those were great memories 🙂
Now, the division is deep and may take decades to fix. I will go on record as saying “it’s the Left Wing Liberal’s fault”. Yes, I blame them, totally. I have been a strong advocate of the 2nd Amendment and exercising your rights. That’s how I used to look at it, “exercising my rights”. I once thought that I’d never have to use my sidearm in self defense, at least the chances were quite slim. Today, I’m far more observant of my surroundings when in public.
Any suggestions on how to reverse this mess?
Strange events everywhere lately.
My black friend & I talk about the “Jim Crow” laws and how they were used to suppress the blacks. Gun control was one of the big one’s and he at least see’s how liberals are using this and intend to again remove their rights. And Joe Biden gets away with saying Republicans want to put blacks in chains….
The Rolling Stone rape story fiasco is just another example of how the Left Wing operates. They lie to get what they want. This be telling, because if they have to lie, what they want can’t be good. Gruberites seem to walk in the same footprints. The Liberal highway of lies. I believe NOTHING said by the Left wing.
“This be telling” Oh My, should read “This should be telling”
I do not know where race relations will go. Generally, the black population is aborting itself into a smaller and smaller minority. While white folk, particularly liberals are going out of their way to pacify blacks the real question will be, where will they be when Hispanics are the majority in the United States?
I have a lot of experience with Latin and South Americans from my jobs over the years. No matter what their skin tone (some Dominicans look like they could be from Africa), generally speaking, they are hostile to the “poor us” mentality of American Blacks. Having come up the ladder the hard way themselves, being people of color and of a different language/culture they seem to have no sympathy.
Anybody else run into this?
YUP….see it all the time here.
SK,
I have a slightly different view.
“the black population is aborting itself into a smaller and smaller minority.”
It would be more accurate to say that about white’s, with our low birth rate. Even with the high abortion rate, the black population growth is healthy. They may lose to Hispanic’s, but immigration is also a huge factor.
“While white folk, particularly liberals are going out of their way to pacify blacks the real question will be, where will they be when Hispanics are the majority in the United States?”
I think it’s less about pacifying than providing entitlements.
“I have a lot of experience with Latin and South Americans from my jobs over the years. No matter what their skin tone (some Dominicans look like they could be from Africa), generally speaking, they are hostile to the “poor us” mentality of American Blacks.”
I think this is the result of generations of entitlement living. The new immigrants will start with that work ethic, but how long will it survive when they see the rewards given to dependents…..
Good points.
There is a difference in my opinion (see how I did that, this is an opinion, not stated as a fact) in Hispanics. In NYC I see a lot of Puerto Ricans who have bought into the entitlement thing. Certainly not the majority but there is a large group and even those that do not buy into it have no qualm apparently with those who do. Of course, Puerto Rico has been another place where Uncle Sam has been more of a wet nurse then a stern pappy. The other Latins, may develop this over generations but there are so many successful ones that they can not attribute their failure to racism.
SK
Check out the left wing sites bragging about getting the “Hispanic immigrants” signed up for Obama Care, Food stamps, etc,, etc.
The Dem party has bet their future on winning the Hispanic population over with FREE COOKIES.
It will take only another ten to fifteen years before the “new Hispanics” will have fallen into the same trap as the inner city Blacks.
They have touched the TAR BABY.
BUCK
Re: Grand Juries
Something worth considering????
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/opinion/bellin-prosecutors-killings-by-police/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Definitely.
I’ve read several interesting articles in the past few days – including a Room for Debate column at the NY Times – calling for a Special Prosecutor to be appointed in these cases.
Buck
Seems a good way to possibly break up the inherent/potential conflict of interest.
I did like how the above article addressed the why of how these two Grand Juries were different. Still gets back to CYA or Avoid Hate Filled Rhetoric, by the prosecutor, but at least it explains how it is not out in left field for cases like this.
Problem is, yes it was a CYA maneuver, but given the nature of the grand jury, still a ton of influence reared by the prosecutor to avoid an indictment. Special Prosecutor would go a long way towards resolving this IMO.
Odd, that a lawyer would not trust another lawyer, elected to his office as Prosecutor by the people. Once again, a great example of why elections don’t work 😉
Not at all, just an inherent conflict of interest — prosecutors need to work with and rely on the police to get their job done.
…not to mention that it’s a completely useless profession.
Question….why a special prosecutor in this case……seems to me that you are saying anytime there is a “race” issue that a special prosecutor should be assigned…..cant agree with that…..assign a special prosecutor on ALL cases and not single out anyone….
Not about the ‘race’ issue, but about the police issue. There is an inherent conflict with the prosecutor and the police. This has nothing to do with race.
Those of us who watch “Law and Order” sort of feel that the Prosecutor on Staten Island overreached on the charges. There should have been a lesser charge offered. From a non-lawyer point of view, The guy in Missouri looks like a friggen genius compared to SI.
Regarding Special Prosecutors. Was watching something on Nixon-Watergate the other night. Led me to revisit the issue of the Watergate Special prosecutor. It amazes me that with all the crap going on in this administration, there is not a snowballs chance in hell of getting a Special Prosecutor. The primary reason one was appointed back then was the issue of the impartiality of the Attorney General. Sound similar to anything, anyone?
From time to time it benefits us to revisit these things. For your edification:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/counsel/office/history.html
Oh my, this doesn’t look good. In fact, it stinks to high heaven.
Makes one wonder WTF is going on. “Immunity”? From what if they didn’t expect criminal charges to stick?
As I said before, I see major civil suit or new charges of “negligent homicide”.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/sgt_kizzy_adoni_meet_sgt_stacey_koon.html
Have a feeling there’s gonna be a lot of empty seats in police academies going forward. Careful what you wish for. I wouldn’t even consider being a cop these days.
” Have a feeling there’s gonna be a lot of empty seats in police academies going forward. ”
Let’s hope so.
” I wouldn’t even consider being a cop these days. ”
People are pissed off. It is only a matter of time before cops start getting killed by citizens protecting their rights.
Might as well set a little brush fire to warm the room.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/world/british-principal-who-resigned-believes-he-was-seen-as-a-threat.html?_r=0
Hey Muslims! Stay in your own yard with your caliphate. Otherwise, if you could assimilate and check your privilege on the way in, that would be great.
” Hey Muslims! Stay in your own yard with your caliphate. ”
I have to agree.
“Caliphate” is just another word for Theocracy, and has no place in a free society.
While I would argue that most Muslims have no interest in instituting a caliphate, there are a minority who are an issue in some countries. England seems to be one of them.
Have you seen the videos of Muslims harassing people on the streets, calling themselves ‘Muslim Patrol’? ..What about the Muslims criticizing them for it?
Have you visited Amsterdam lately, or France, or Italy? While I was teaching in Amsterdam and the UK during 2001, there were massive “race” riots in the Midlands. They were between Muslims and Hindus. But hundreds of police went to the hospital from being injured while trying to protect property……note, on the BBC all tyey talked about was racism in America because of the church burnings. Unfortunately they left out that most were inside insurance jobs.
” Have you visited Amsterdam lately, or France, or Italy? ”
I visited Cannes, Naples and Rome (and a few other places.) in the mid-90’s.
I’d love to go back to Europe to visit a few more places …but I don’t think they would like me openly carrying around a 12 gauge on my shoulder like I do here in the USA.
🙂
In nearly all of these cases of overt police force, even when video evidence clearly indicates wrongdoing, LEOs are acquitted by the system. The reason for this should be obvious: The establishment must keep the warrior class happy, secure and content; otherwise, it loses power. No corrupt system is going to punish its own unless utterly necessary to its survival because if it did, it would then have to admit that it is not entirely trustworthy, causing the people to question whether its existence is more dangerous than the villains it is supposed to protect us from. In this way, police become a kind of Mafia or cult with their own set of rules outside of the purview of the rest of society and immune to any form of justice.
Law enforcement organizations have even argued in the Supreme Court that their job is not to prevent crime but to enforce the law after the fact, and they have won using this assertion. That is to say, a police officer is not legally required to protect a person from harm, only to institute state policy once a crime is committed.
http://personalliberty.com/thin-blue-line-serves-purpose/
As a point, we do that where I live. All neighbors have each others contact info and some of us are on speed dial (always armed and ready to roll). With police 20 to 30 minutes away at best, we all understand the need. Sadly, that response time can be equal or worse in crime ridden cities.
The reason for this should be obvious:
It’s obvious to me. It’s time to choose sides…thugs, cops, or govt. Pretty simple. Let the cops back off somewhat and let the chips fall where they may. At this point we can’t throw cops under the bus.
That is like choosing between cheese, milk, yogurt, or dairy products.
Autopsy report on Garner……very interesting.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/a_medical_perspective_on_the_garner_tragedy.html
” I believe that the cause of Mr. Garner’s death was not “police brutality” or negligence, but rather the unfortunate synergy between his disease of morbid obesity and actions most police perform countless times with only transient discomfort to the arrestee. The decision of the Grand Jury was reasonable.
Mr. Garner’s demise was the consequence of a confluence of many factors, most of which were beyond the ken of a policeman, and which occurred in devastatingly rapid sequence.”
Bullshit! He was alive and doing ‘okay’ before the cops had their way with him.
The author is using Mr. Garner’s obesity as a means to rationalize accepting the actions of law enFORCEment and grand jury.
If it had been an elderly man being harassed and tackled for being known to possess inexpensive black-market pain medication, would he argue that it was a combination of his old fragile body and normal police procedure? Would he argue the cops not realizing how fragile elderly people are, that their actions were of transient discomfort to most people?
It is very clear what happened. Mr. Garner was killed by a bunch of punk cops who refuse to mind their own business.
Oy Vey-again. It is their business-it is the law-the business owners called the police to complain about the man ILLEGALLY selling the cigarettes in front of their stores. They had to respond in some form or fashion-they didn’t have the discretion to just ignore his illegal activities in this instance even if they wanted too.
I suspect the police decide how they are going to handle people who are resisting arrest depending on how strong they believe they are-how much resistance and damage they can inflict-being old would lesson that danger-being overweight doesn’t mean one isn’t STRONG.
And quite frankly, I also suspect that being too easy in trying to restrain someone would lead to more damage done. The more their allowed to fight the more they will be hurt. This is just an assumption-but it makes logical sense to me.
Bull!
First of all, Mr Garner was violating no one. Just because a group of idiots write a bunch of garbage on paper that says they have the right to steal, does not make it right.
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO STEAL!
It doesn’t matter whether it is one person or a million people. The ‘law’ was in the wrong. They had no good reason to confront him. It was indeed none of their business.
Secondly, he wasn’t breaking their ridiculous justifications for theft. He was hanging out on a PUBLIC SIDEWALK.
Thirdly, it is at the discretion of police of who to or not to harass, as well as the free will to join or not to join the ‘harassment and murder department’.
Fourth, As I understand ( I could be wrong), the cops were originally called because there was an altercation, not because of Mr. Garner. The altercation was over by the time they had arrived. They saw him there and started harassing him.
Even if the store owner did sick the pigs on him, unless he was harassing customers, the store owner had no good reason to call them.
Fifth, he had every right to resist their faux arrest, even shoot them dead as an act of defense against kidnapping.
Sixth, my argument above was to demonstrate that the author was rationalizing that his health was partially to blame for his death. It was not. His death was a direct result of the policemen’s actions. He was okay before the cops showed up and killed him. If they had left him alone, he would still be alive.
David
You commit the same logical fallacy as so many on the other side.
“The author is using Mr. Garner’s obesity as a means to rationalize accepting the actions of law enFORCEment and grand jury.”
The discussion provides an EXPLANATION of the biological reasons for Mr. Garner’s death. It EXPLAINS the HOW he died and the CAUSES of that.
It is not a rationalization of the actions which led to that occurrence or whether those actions are “acceptable”.
I will grant you that some might try to use this to distract from the other issues. But to simply dismiss the SCIENCE because it could complicate your argument is not a logical argument.
Your comparison of a very strong 300 lb man and an old man is even more ridiculous. Especially since the strong man had already displayed his ability to simply brush an officer away. Tell me. Do you approach a rattle snake the same way you approach a garden snake?
They are both snakes.
” The discussion provides an EXPLANATION of the biological reasons for Mr. Garner’s death. It EXPLAINS the HOW he died and the CAUSES of that. ”
I see your point but still disagree.
He argues that the cops were not medical professionals and didn’t realize they could kill him, thus the grand jury was reasonable in excusing them for murder or manslaughter.
It uses medical knowledge to play it off as if it were an unfortunate and unintentional accident.
It was not. It was a man being harassed and killed because he lived in a society that justifies theft and brutality. If they had not bothered him in the first place he would still be alive.
It is indeed a rationalization of the actions which led to that occurrence and whether those actions are “acceptable”. They are not acceptable. At least to me they aren’t.
And YES, they should not have been indicted for “murder”. Because under our “laws” it is not murder. Accidents can result in homicide. Accidents can be negligent or simply accidents. But the result is still a homicide, but it is not murder.
Your entire argument rests on YOUR view of a Society with Laws you don’t like. So it amounts to an argument in another universe, because in this one we do have laws and we hire police to enforce them.
Within that context is how you must judge the police, not within your own.
Why? Because that is how even the demonstrators are judging it. But they want to ignore the Truth and the Facts because they are running on the type of emotional analysis like yours. Thus the statements like, “selling cigarettes shouldn’t be a death sentence”.
This statement is true, but it is FALSE to connect it to the POLICE action. It should be connected to the POLITICIANS action.
And to blame Society for the action of politicians is not right in my view. The people have to have knowledge and then the chance to act before you can condemn them for every little thing perpetrated by politicians.
But even here you will get to the same judgment because you reject Government of any kind. So there is really no argument to be had. Everything simply is a reinforcement of your view.
Which, by the way, I have no problem with. But it tends to muddy the arguments because you try to attack details with your general principle. When the rest of us have to deal with a separate general principle which affects the details. I think you understand the meaning here, but if not ask and I will explain further.
” And YES, they should not have been indicted for “murder”. Because under our “laws” it is not murder. Accidents can result in homicide. Accidents can be negligent or simply accidents. But the result is still a homicide, but it is not murder. ”
Are you suggesting they didn’t mean to tackle him?, …that they did not intend to kidnap him? Call it what you want, but a man is a dead VICTIM because someone wanted to punish him for HARMING NO ONE. Someone[s] thought they had a right to his property.
If someone steals an old lady’s purse, and thus knocks her to the ground fracturing her skull and killing her, would it be ruled an unfortunate accident?
If someone robs a store with a gun and accidentally shoots the clerk while they’re emptying the register, then claims they didn’t mean to, that they’re not a firearms expert, do they get charged with robbery and not murder?
Of course not. So how do the pigs get away with it? How do they kill a man for doing nothing, claiming a lack of medical expertise?
” Your entire argument rests on YOUR view of a Society with Laws you don’t like. So it amounts to an argument in another universe, because in this one we do have laws and we hire police to enforce them.”
I am right and your whole fuct up barbaric thieving statist society is wrong. I stand firm and righteous in my convictions.
Until you can come up with a legitimate argument as to how people have a right to steal and kill and kidnap, you will always lose this argument.
” Within that context is how you must judge the police, not within your own. ”
I will not justify the killing of an innocent human being based on the collective irrational justifications of barbarism of others.
WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO STEAL?
WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO KIDNAP?
WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL BECAUSE SOMEONE RESISTS THEIR VICTIMIZATION?
” Why? Because that is how even the demonstrators are judging it. But they want to ignore the Truth and the Facts because they are running on the type of emotional analysis like yours. Thus the statements like, “selling cigarettes shouldn’t be a death sentence”. ”
BULLSHIT!
It is a matter of principle, the respect for individual rights. It is a matter of calling out a system of injustice that potentially effects everyone.
” This statement is true, but it is FALSE to connect it to the POLICE action. It should be connected to the POLITICIANS action. ”
It is connected to the whole chain of events from voters to the use of violence on innocent nonviolent people by thugs (called police) who forcefully carry out their demands.
” And to blame Society for the action of politicians is not right in my view. The people have to have knowledge and then the chance to act before you can condemn them for every little thing perpetrated by politicians. ”
It is society that accepts and demands such a backward system, as well as the politicians that cater to them, as well as the law enFORCEment that forces their will upon others.
It is everyone’s fault, except people like me who actually have the balls to stand up and speak against it, instead of coming up with or following along with some irrational bullshit justification for theft and murder.
” But even here you will get to the same judgment because you reject Government of any kind. So there is really no argument to be had. Everything simply is a reinforcement of your view. ”
I reject government because it is evil at it’s very core, because it is predicated upon coercion and violence against nonviolent people.
Judge me if you like. I care not, for I am right.
” Which, by the way, I have no problem with. But it tends to muddy the arguments because you try to attack details with your general principle. When the rest of us have to deal with a separate general principle which affects the details. I think you understand the meaning here, but if not ask and I will explain further.”
Indeed I do understand, and it is quite the opposite. I am not the one that muddies the waters. I am the one who calls them out and attempts to straighten it out in spite of the nonsense.
That article got me fired up because I recognize the subtle way in which the author tries to spin it as an accident with a straw-man about medical expertise. I give him the benefit of the doubt by calling it a rationalization rather than outright intentional misguidance. And every time society accepts things like it, we allow for more victimization and become one step closer to enslavement.
It isn’t about the cops’ knowledge. It is about rights.
The grand jury was indeed unreasonable by even entertaining the question of IF the cops were ‘innocent’.
WHO HAS A RIGHT TO STEAL KILL AND/OR KIDNAP?
David
You once again do a great job of making my case.
“Are you suggesting they didn’t mean to tackle him?” Of course they did, but it has NOTHING to do with the charge of murder.
“, …that they did not intend to kidnap him?” They did NOT. They intended to arrest him for violating at least one law.
“Call it what you want, but a man is a dead VICTIM because someone wanted to punish him for HARMING NO ONE.” Yes, and we in this modern world, built upon the Common Law of England where we came from, call it an “accidental” death or “negligent homicide”. We do NOT call it murder.
” Someone[s] thought they had a right to his property.” No, they had a right to enforce the laws passed and accepted by the PEOPLE.
Like I said, your claims of murder, etc have no foundation except in your No Govt world.
As for the emotion of the demonstrations, they are not protesting a “system” they are protesting “racial bias in police work”. Your rants are along the same line. You make accusations of murder……based on what? Because the cops enforced a law you do not think is just. Are the demonstrators howling about such laws? NOPE.
They are screaming about someone being murdered and the suspect getting away with it.
So yes David, a bunch of emotional tripe. Not REASON or Logic.
Are you really that stupid, JAC?
Do you honestly believe what you are arguing, or are you just trying to aggravate?
Because if you are serious, I will try to break it down in terms I think (or at least hope) you can understand. But before I take the time to do so, I would like to know whether or not you actually believe that.
I believe him and thought it was a great post. Does that aggravate you too?
Yes, it does, …and not for the reasons you may think.
David
Ah yes, there it is. The condescending arrogance of the Anarchist.
I am a freakin genius and the rest of you are morons. Just let me tell you how and why!!
Now before you launch your lecture to me perhaps you can detail what it is you want to know.
Do I believe………….what??
Let me offer this though …………. I believe the cops DID NOT MURDER Mr. Garner.
I believe they killed him by accident. I believe they should be sued and tried for negligent homicide.
Now if there is something else please ask me specifically.
” Ah yes, there it is. The condescending arrogance of the Anarchist. I am a freakin genius and the rest of you are morons. Just let me tell you how and why!! ”
I don’t mean to sound arrogant, I just know I’m right. 😉
” Do I believe………….what?? ”
…all that legal nonsense to avoid admitting that no one has a right to steal.
” I believe they killed him by accident. I believe they should be sued and tried for negligent homicide. ”
You are not as unreasonable as you sound, although I will argue they are, at the very least, guilty of manslaughter.
You and others take the position that they were doing their job enFORC[E]ing the law as policemen, that they did not intend to kill him, and therefore should not be charged with murder.
I look at it and see they meant to violate him and were prepared to kill him, depending on his level of resistance. And not only should they be charged, but that the whole chain of command up to the police chief, lawmakers and voters are also guilty and should also be charged.
The law that says it has a right to steal, is in the wrong.
Anything developed from a false premise will also be false. Thus the whole legitimacy of the law and subsequent justification for the actions of the police falls apart. They never should have approached him in the first place.
( Watch the video and take note of the cop checking his cigarettes for a tax stamp while he lays there dying. How disgusting is that! )
Now, for the break down…
What do you call the taking of property against the owner’s permission?
A: Theft
What do you call it when one person takes property against the owner’s permission?
A: Theft
What do you call it when millions of people take property against the owner’s permission?
A: Theft
What do you call it when someone[s] uses the threat of violence to take someone’s property without permission?
A: Theft
What do you call it when someone[s] write it down on paper before using a threat of violence for the taking of property against the owner’s permission?
A: Theft
Who has a right to steal?
A: No one
Because no one has the right to steal, the NYC law against loosies is wrong.
Because the law against loosies is wrong, because Mr. Garner wasn’t selling loosies, the police never had a reason to harass, kidnap or even approach Mr. Garner.
Because they had no reason to harass, kidnap or approach Mr. Garner….because he has the right to defense, he had the right to resist their violation.
Because he had the right to resist, he prepared to exercise it while also pleading for reason.
Because he chose to plead instead of obey, the police chose to violate him.
Because they chose to violate him, they ‘accidentally’ killed him.
Because the police killed a man, an investigation and legal process was initiated.
Because NYC cannot admit fault, the police were not charged.
Because NYC cannot admit fault, and the police were not charged, it has proven to not correct it’s dysfunction, and thus law has proven to be a failure.
Because it’s failure and dysfunction will continue, people will continue to be violated.
Because such violations are wrong, they are unacceptable.
Because such violations are unacceptable,they should not be tolerated.
Because such dysfunctions should not be tolerated, something should be done.
Because violence is not the best answer, reason should be applied.
Because NYC has proven itself unreasonable belligerent and violent, it denies it’s potential/current victims an active engaging resolution.
Because NYC denies it’s potential/current victims an active engaging resolution, another resolution should be attempted.
Now what?
Abandon, reject and/or boycott NYC? Disobey? Burn it?
Should the people of NYC like the Garner family take Anita’s advice and just grow up, ..be good little slave victims? Maybe we should all just ignore the real issue and blame Mr. Garner for being fat?
What about all the other cities just like it?
Maybe a peaceful social order premised on rights and responsibility, instead of force, is not such a bad idea. Maybe I am not so arrogant, but rather reasonable.
A question for anyone…..if Feinstein releases all this CIA information and someone dies as a result…..who is culpable?
Hint: It ain’t the government.
The person who kills is culpable. The Government CAN’T be held accountable for anything. They are completely above the law and act so in front of everyone.
d13
The people who broke the law which created the situations and events which are supposedly contained within the report.
I would ADD to that list the Congress Critters who were in fact briefed and then denied being briefed. Because once they knew and did nothing to stop it they became culpable as well. Nancy Pelosi looks like she should be on the list.
Now lets tackle the issue itself. If the following summary is close to accurate then I would say the flit has hit the shan.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/senate-report-on-cia-program-details-brutality-dishonesty/ar-BBgy5Zk?ocid=HPCDHP
There are at least three of us here who have clear memories of the Church Committee’s findings. So nobody can claim that as a matter of integrity/fact that the CIA is telling the truth and the investigation is thus false.
So assuming the CIA did these things the big question at the moment is WHAT SHOULD BE THE PROPER RESPONSE. Note that the R’s apparently did not want to participate in the investigation. If they had I think Feinstein would have included them. So WHAT to do?
Well let me suggest that if we could trust Congress then the findings should have been shared with various committees in “secret” and those committees could develop credible action to FIX the problems and even deal with bad apples.
The problem is that we cannot trust Congress. There are far to many committee members who have become cozy with those they oversee. There are more who align themselves with CIA and/or the Military for simply POLITICAL reasons. That is to strengthen their own “strong on defense” postures or simply weaken their opponents.
For the record, I don’t trust Feinstein either, but my adverse experiences with her are fewer than with some others, like her compadre’ Barbara Boxer or anyone that worked for Al Gore. Sorry, digressing there for a moment.
So what to do with delicate information when we cannot trust either the agencies or the Congress doing the oversight on our behalf?? I submit we have to release the information to the public.
The timing may suck, but we need the antiseptic affect of daylight. Then we need ACTION to fix the issues in a meaningful way. The problem going forward is that WE the PEOPLE are probably not on the same page. Some will feel sick and angry, others will see these actions as “justified”. We need to debate this openly, much like other things.
Who are We the People? That is where do our moral and ethical principles lie? If we believe Torture is appropriate as a People then we need to get to the business of defining it, codifying it and withdrawing from all international and US laws preventing implementing it.
But the power elite will use this to manipulate and to prevent WE the People from forming a solid and majority view from which they are to work in the future.
Watching Feinstein makes me ill…..
I laugh at the timing of this report…..but furthermore……if we do not use these interrogation methods…we will simply turn over captured troops to those countries that do use them…it will stop nothing…we just won’t do it and all the little progressives can sit back and say…:”See what we did?”……and the interrogation techniques will continue….just not here. So who really cares.
The Koreans are very adept and interrogation techniques….we will simply send them over there….but one thing about the Koreans…..none will be let out of jail….and none will survive their techniques…..all this kumbaya shit means nothing but make us a laughing stock around the world…..by laughing stock, I mean that all these other countries will laugh at Feinstein’s report and wonder why we made this public…..it matters not.
I support the turning of prisoners to other countries for the interrogation….it will not stop.
Their still trying to make Bush look bad. It’s a game, “look over here at what HE did” so people aren’t paying attention to the idiot in the Whitehouse now.
Isn’t this going to make Grubergate seem insignificant to many people? Isn’t Gruber going to get the business in front of some committee today?
yep great timing….and Feinstein is on the way out…this is per parting shot…….shooting people in the back.
d13
Getting even for the CIA spying on her and others in Congress??? For them lying about some other things???
It is a get even thing and totally politically motivated and a distraction. This report has been finished for months. Why now?
d13
Because the R’s kicked their little patuti in the last election?
Because Hillary needs someone to set the stage for her?
Because the D’s need to put the R’s in a corner they can use against them in 2016?
Or maybe because Feinstein got tired of playing good soldier and putting this off due to POTUS requests. Maybe he busted his pick with her as well, so she said “shove it mister”, I am going to release it now.
I think you will agree that the latter could be a very real possibility. Unfortunately so are all the other reasons.
The real question is whether POTUS agreed with its release or is now simply trying to get out front of it. Notice that it was Kerry and others who made the delay requests publically.
If POTUS was for release then I would add another motive. That is complete disruption of the system which adds to our cynicism and distrust. You cannot REMAKE something as big as America itself until you have created just enough chaos that the people will accept it.
This is how Teddy and the other Progressives were able to may major changes in our National Identity. The “crisis” has to exist to justify “radical change”. Because most Americans just want to be left alone and pay little attention to politics. Until a “crisis” develops.
Just a few “theories” on my part. I am sure none of them have any basis in fact or truth. Bwahahahahaha
LOL….all of the above could be true..
Little lesson…in the Vietnam War…..when we captured prisoners……we turned them over to the South Koreans (ROK)….They got the information through…well let us just say that we got what we wanted and it was credible. In Desert Storm, when we captured prisoners, we turned them over to the Gendarmerie. …Turks. We got what we wanted from them and it was credible….During the Bosnia campaign, we turned prisoners over to the old LOK. We got what we wanted and it was credible……
d13thecolonel
Good morning Sir. Hope you and yours are fine today.
Question on your point. If torture does in fact work, that is gets credible information, then why do we see people in the business claim that it does not work?
This of course does not address the moral/ethical question of the practice, just its utility. Because during the debates over this a few years back several “CIA” and “Military” interrogators said publically that “torture” does not result in credible information.
I know that our own training changed from say nothing to give up small pieces of credible but “unimportant” information if you absolutely have to. Would not others train theirs in the same manner to make it look credible but yet provide nothing of substance?
Your thoughts?
My thoughts. We are well trained to give bits and pieces of useless information and make it sound credible……up to the point that they figure it out. Everyone knows that the name, rank, and serial number routine is absolute bullshit. In addition, everyone that is trained to give out useless information also knows that everyone else is trained the same way. However, this only works until the “screws” are kept turning, so to speak.
Let’s take sleep deprivation. People will break pretty quickly with sleep deprivation and keep them standing on their feet.. no food, no water, no latrine breaks. When a person is standing in his/her own filth, no sleep for 72 hours, no food, and only ice crystals to suck on and you ask the same questions over and over and over again….the answers change but a pattern is established. Then the type of questions are changed during the time that the prisoner is at his weakest and the interrogator purposely changes the questions. It is how the interrogation is done when a spirit or will is broken or about to be,
Torture, as in beatings, never work. Puling out teeth or bamboo shoots under the finger nails are archaic. But…..breaking ones dignity is not archaic. When one’s dignity is broken, the flesh follows.
Constant loud music in combination with sleep deprivation works really well.
Water boarding is perfect and the best non lethal interrogation technique I have ever observed. Went through it my self for training and the United States is not the first one to use water boarding….it has been around for hundreds of years.
My point is, in order to get credible information, you must use a combination of things and have an experienced interrogator that knows how to question is extremely important…
So, you strip the prisoner naked and keep them that way….WHY? Because it breaks ones dignity, takes the uniform away, makes them extremely vulnerable feeling,…then you employ several of the above techniques….all of them non lethal.
However, I am for just giving the prisoners over to a variety of countries that do not give a rat’s ass about moral ethics ( and that is most countries of the world ) and let them have their fun.
What I find funny and stupid at the same time…..is people who think that if we don’t do something they will reciprocate….THIS IS FALSE. Everyone will be interrogated if captured.
Prince William speaks, proves that Blue Blood upbringing and high end education does not mean you learn anything or will be “actually” smart. But you certainly will be eloquent in your repeating various platitudes and rhetoric of your teachers. Kind of like our POTUS.
“Today I will address delegates at the World Bank on the illegal wildlife trade, which is a subject extremely close to my heart. I am honoured to have the opportunity to speak at such an influential forum, given the World Bank’s prominence and rich history in global development and in addressing some of the world’s most pressing problems.
I will be highlighting the link between corruption, wild and natural resource crime and illicit trade. Corruption remains one of the most persistent and damaging impediments to the alleviation of poverty and, I believe, one of the most insidious forms of corruption in the world today is the illegal wildlife trade.
Many people might wonder why conserving wildlife should be considered so important when there are wider issues of global and national interest, such as conflict and poverty to worry about. The answer is because these issues are interlinked.
Wildlife crime goes well beyond just a threat to endangered species but also has impacts on our society, economy and security. It undermines efforts to uphold the rule of law, acts as an agent for corruption, creates a barrier to development and fuels global instability.”
This is not the entire address, just a clip of the beginning. My antagonistic point is that wildlife crime is not just another link or related issue of corruption nor does it undermine the rule of law, or is it the cause of anything other than the death of animals.
It is the RESULT of the corruption that leads to the poverty and sense of hopelessness among the people. They then turn to the one thing they know. Killing animals to survive. In this case not for food but for the money to buy food. And make no mistake. Without the complacency or participation of the locals, the criminal element which drives these markets could not exist.
Stop the corruption and the killing will be reduced. Not the other way around.
Now a legal question: If Feinstein has information that she knows could and most likely will result in deaths and injury, is that being an accomplice? The willful disclosure of something that she knows would lead to murder……is she above the law?
d13
She should not be above the law. But I am not sure that the law would include her actions as a crime. Even if she “suspected” it could result in someone dying. I am not convinced it should either.
The deaths of all our “forces” employed by Govt.. can ultimately be tied to a decision by someone who KNEW there was a chance of them being killed. So I think you would have to prove her actions and her knowledge fall “outside” her authority as a Govt. Official.
Awfully hard to do with a sitting Senator. Especially when that Senators primary role is to “represent” us, which carries with it the responsibility to hold Govt. agencies accountable.
Note how treason is thrown around at politicians who spill intel, but charges are never actually brought against them.
“The deaths of all our “forces” employed by Govt.. can ultimately be tied to a decision by someone who KNEW there was a chance of them being killed. So I think you would have to prove her actions and her knowledge fall “outside” her authority as a Govt. Official.”
Not so, friend JAC……going to war is one thing. But, Feinstein, in my opinion, knows that releasing information is going to result in violence and killing. And I am quite sure that she and others want killings…they want them because it fits their long term plans. I am becoming convinced that the Progressive movement is just that…murders and mayhem are the norm in their minds to achieve a so called objective.
Now, you may argue with me if you want but I will not back off the sentiment that I now have regarding the progressive movement. It is not in the best interest of our country.
Look, all this racist hoopla over two incidents that involve a choke hold and shooting….the DOJ is investigating as racist because no one liked the decisions made by our system of justice….where is the DOJ and the media on the hammer deaths ( three instances now ) of retaliatory killings and beatings….all by blacks and one hispanic. Hardly a mention of anything and certainly no investigation by the DOJ into racist motivation.
I challenge anyone to do some research of the past three weeks….research the FBI statistics….see how many whites have suddenly been killed by young blacks….shot, hammered, hit with concrete blocks…….and the DOJ pressuring local police forces to not call them hate crimes or racist issues…..classifying three of them so far as failed robberies.
No sir….it does not take a hit from a brick or a club or anything else to convince me that this administration is the worst I have ever seen and is deliberately, in my opinion, trying to stoke racist tension….that is the only way they stay power.
I am telling, you…..this country has been set back decades and not by what the police did….it is the rhetoric. The tension on race is mounting once again, and it is being done deliberately.
And no, I am not ignoring that the police are less than perfect and that there are tactics used that I disagree with…..but there is a system in place to address that and that system is not what the DOJ is doing.
d13thecolonel
I do not disagree with your assessment of the “radical” part of the “P” Progressive movement. Many of those are in fact Anarchist communists, oxymoron of the highest magnitude.
I will argue that Feinstein is NOT ONE OF THIS GROUP. At least she has never displayed such before. As I said, Boxer is another matter as are many of the Dems in Congress. Especially the newer arrivals like Warren.
As for the increase in Black crime on white, etc, etc,. I commented here before on what I saw as a change in attitudes after Obama was elected. And this was not necessarily tied to any actions by the handlers/operatives but simply due to his election.
First I saw people with a chip on their shoulder, then I saw more people acting out with violence. All justified by their “plight” created by “white privilege”. All of which has been hammered into their heads by the Welfare State supporters and manipulators.
So I agree with your assessment of crime and other issues increasing. I do not attribute all of it to actions by Mr. Obama. Notice I said all, as I do think that some of it does lie at his feet, and with the Dem Party leadership/operatives.
When you drive racism, misogyny and class warfare daily then target “the others” as the cause of all this and the Messiah’s failure to fix it, you will eventually get what we are seeing.
By the way, Good Morning Sir.
Hope you and the family are doing well.
Oh, and I do NOT disagree with your conclusion that race “relations” have been set back decades.
But I offer another perspective. They had already been set back but most of us just didn’t notice it. The fire was burning hotter all the time under the surface. Stoked deliberately as mentioned above.
This administration and the radicals that have captured the Dem. party simply let the fire loose, while stoking it some more.
YES……………BY DESIGN.
Notice how Jackson and Sharpton are falling out of the spotlight. MY take………. they may be recognizing they started something they cannot control and which might cause such backlash it will send them to the dustbin of history.
Once can only hope!!
OK sir….fair enough…..have a good fishing trip.
Always interesting to be reminded how they were for something before they were against it. I think there is something more going on here. Even beyond the Gruber distraction. Never been a Feinstein fan but wouldn’t put her in the O category of deliberately trying to destroy our country. Someone has her toes to the fire with some big time threats and she decided to save her skin and comply.
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-cia%E2%80%99s-greatest-fear-being-thrown-under-the-bus-by-11034
So O has a sore throat and he goes in for a CT? WTH is that all about?
https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/angered-by-atheists-fla-city-commissioners-walk-out-during-secular
Angered By Atheists: Fla. City Commissioners Walk Out During Secular Invocation
Dec 9, 2014 by Simon Brown in Wall of Separation
Governments – particularly those of the local variety – are supposed to be inclusive toward all citizens they serve. But some members of a Florida city council are clearly unaware of this responsibility, since they felt it was appropriate to walk out of a recent meeting right before an atheist was to deliver a message.
On Dec. 2, atheist Preston Smith was scheduled to give an official invocation before the Lake Worth City Commission. But as he made his way to the podium, Mayor Pam Triolo and three city commissioners got up and walked out.
It’s a shame they made that decision, because (ironically) they missed Smith’s thoughtful words on tolerance.
“In closing, let us above all love one another,” Smith said. “Not to obtain mythical rewards for ourselves now, hereafter or based on superstitious threats of eternal damnation. But rather, embrace secular-based principles of morality and do good for goodness sake.”
But Triolo and the others weren’t interested in what Smith had to say. They’d already made up their minds that he intended to offend them. Triolo initially wouldn’t say why she walked out on Smith, but she told WPTV-TV West Palm Beach yesterday what motivated her intolerant action.
“I didn’t leave because Mr. Smith is an atheist, I left because of his alleged tweet,” she said.
Huh? According to WPTV, Smith allegedly sent a tweet some months ago that offered an interpretation of scripture that some might find offensive. We don’t know for sure, though, because Americans United hasn’t seen the tweet in question and Smith hasn’t confirmed that he wrote it.
Triolo said that she just assumed Smith would say something offensive, and she didn’t want to be around when he did it.
“Free speech works both ways,” Triolo said. “You can say what you want and I can choose to leave.”
Sorry Mayor Triolo – we’re not buying your explanation. Even if Smith said something offensive in the past, why does that automatically mean he can’t give an appropriate message at the meeting? And since he did just that, he clearly proved Triolo and the other commissioners wrong.
That’s why it seems pretty obvious that these lawmakers simply have a problem with atheists. They’re not interested in non-theistic points of view, and they made it clear that the Lake Worth City Commission has no respect for minority opinions and that atheists are not welcome at their meetings.
If Triolo was offended, she now knows exactly how many atheists feel when they’re forced to sit through a pre-meeting prayer that invokes God or Jesus. It’s offensive to them, which is why it’s best when meetings begin with nothing more than a moment of silence. Silence harms no one.
As for Triolo, she’d better get used to non-religious people opening city commission meetings. When the U.S. Supreme Court said in Greece v. Galloway that it’s fine for any government to open its meetings with sectarian prayers, it also said other viewpoints should be accommodated. That includes atheists.
Perhaps Triolo and her cohorts could follow the example of the lone Lake Worth City commissioner who didn’t leave the room during Smith’s message.
“If we choose to have an invocation, we have a responsibility to respectfully listen,” Commissioner Christopher McVoy said. Walking out was “very un-American, and a slap in the face to the principles people fought very hard to make sure we had those rights,” he added.
McVoy is dead on. In the post-Greece world, Lake Worth City has options: either they allow a variety of viewpoints to be heard, or they open their meetings with a moment of silence (or start the meeting with no preliminary statements). If they can’t accept that, they will find themselves on the wrong side of court rulings and simple decency.
Baptist pastor doubles down: Anyone who is not heterosexual should die
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2014/12/video-baptist-pastor-doubles-down-anyone-who-is-not-heterosexual-should-die.html
With two days of bad hunting weather coming, the deer Gods blessed us once again and another doe harvest hangs in the barn. Just goes to show that one should never give up. Not my latest harvest in a season, but rare none the less. The warm weather is helping this year. Wind/snow and more wind coming. I don’t hunt in high winds, useless at my age.
With that said, I will be online quite a bit the next two days 🙂 Now a little catch up.
The torture issue: SFW! Old news lets move on. Has zero bearing on today’s issue’s.
The Garner killing by cops: Did the actions fit the crime?
The Brown death by the cop: Didn’t need to be a cop, the same would have happened with an armed civilian. ALL BULLSHIT by the protestors who are saying” hands up , don’t shoot” because another loser who was running away and didn’t see a damn thing lied about it. Hence, your Gruberites. Fooled again by lies. Seems to be common by the Left, Lie and believe the Lie.
Pooped, long evening! 🙂
For you, JAC;
http://www.infowars.com/the-reich-wing-blames-cop-homicide-on-victims-obesity/
For you, David:
Alex Jones = Lying freak show.
I have researched enough of his supposed revealing stories to simply not spend one minute ever reading anything he publishes, ever, ever again.
Give me an actual copy of the ME report or some other sources review/critique.
I read again the other day the first stories published on the ME’s first report. NO MENTION of hemorrhaging. Of course any bruise is technically a type of hemorrhage so it may be included but not mentioned. But that has NOTHING to do with the charges and accusations that Garner was “strangled to death”. Because he was not dead nor was he dying after the cop let go of his neck. Thus he was not strangled to death. LOGIC rules, emotional B.S. drools.
The “strangled” claim is another emotional head line being pushed in the media and by those in the streets.
The FIRST reports on the ME exam discussed the ME’s opinion that Garner’s obesity played a role as did his general health condition, along with him having people sitting on him after they got him on the ground.
Got that??? A “combination” of factors led to a death. All of which was included in the FIRST ME REPORT and Media Release.
Good Morning JAC 🙂
I can see Dave’s point about the Garner issue. Actually it reminded me of a movie I once saw, it went kinda like this:
In your best Italian accent
Boss: Guido, Go to that Muther Fing store and get my Muther Fing money. If he don’t give it up, break his Fing knee caps. Everybody pays for protection in this town.
Guido: OK Boss, Come on Little Charlie, I’ll show you how we take care of business.
A few minutes later Guido and Little Charlie walk into store, Guido throws a few things at the owner and says:
Guido: Where’s our F-ing payment you skinny Jew prick.
Store owner: I’m sorry Guido, it’s been a real bad month with all the snow and bad weather, I gotta feed my family.
Guido: I don’t give a F about your F-ing family, I only care about our money.
Store owner: I don’t have it Guido, I’m so sorry.
Guido grabs the store clerk, drags him over the counter and pummels his knee caps with a police baton, screams are heard from the street.
Guido: Charlie, burn this F-ing place to the ground with this prick Jew in it. Teach the rest of this town what happens when they don’t pay up.
As the building burns, break to commercial.
OK, there’s example of what basically happened to Garner, except the Government is the boss and the cops are Guido and Little Charlie. The problem is the same, didn’t pay the Boss, the end is the same, after being pummeled first, the non-payer dies.
I think you get it now, Yes? 🙂
Pass the popcorn…
Good morning Anita 🙂
The end of the movie was predictable, the Legal Boss orders his men to take down the ILLEGAL boss, which of course happens in a knock down typical Hollywood shootout. The government wins again, as is the normal propaganda coming from Hollywood.
The only difference between the two, is one has determined it’s theft legal and the other illegal. One has a monopoly on violence, the other, a few hired thugs. Both steal for protection (at least that is the lie being told to continue to seal money). In fact, neither group really protects anybody, they act AFTER the fact.
But in true Anarchist thinking, this pretty much tells the story. I think 😉
gman
After all I have posted here do you really think I don’t understand Dave’s argument or what is going on?? Really???
I simply reject it as a reflection of the reality we live in right now in the USA. I reject the notion of judging our laws and society against the Anarchist view. Apples to oranges.
To accept his and your story we have to change the concept of an arrest for law breaking as “kidnapping”.
Taxes are theft per the purist argument. One I have made myself. But I use it because the majority would NOT pay the amount of current tax if given a choice. However, most do pay it and most accept the “concept” of taxation.
Many or our laws on the other hand are accepted by most, even desired. We expect them to be enforced. The Anarchists rely heavily on the concepts of Common Law from the ancient times prior to major Govt.
Well my friend, that is where these concepts of murder vs. manslaughter come from. One is an illegal/unlawful killing, the other is an accident.
Murder requires “intent” to kill. To claim Garner was murdered is nothing but sophistry.
That is also where the concepts of an “arrest” or “detention” come from as the tribes “tribunal” could send people to bring an accused before the tribunal if they did not come of their own accord. The detention was sanctioned by the common law of the people.
So like I said, if Garner’s death is so egregious to those marching they need to be demonstrating against the stupid laws (mayor and city hall), and the police.
The screams of “murder”, accusations of “strangled to death” and cries of “racist cops” are primarily, and almost entirely, based on an emotional response not any critical thinking. The Black Community has suffered from unjust application of laws at times and even unjust laws. Even though they asked for some of them, like the crack cocaine punishment. So this has festered, realities become urban legends with magnitudes beyond what exists, but become believed. Then the manipulators feed the distrust to form anger for the purpose of political manipulation. Eventually the pot boils over. Quite often when that happens the catalysts doesn’t even relate to the aggravation in real terms. It simply fits the narrative at an emotional level and thus the lid is blown. That is where we are.
That and of course the Anarchists, Socialists and Communists have joined in, effectively hijacking the protests started by the Black Community.
The current rioting also reflects the outcome of decades of deliberate effort to create cynicism among the newer generations. When you deliberately denigrate something, in this case the “establishment”, always focusing on the unjust even when not really unjust, and spreading the propaganda of hate, you will eventually get people to act based on their emotional response to the conditioning. Not any logic or sound reasoning.
Also remember that the vast majority of humans make their decisions based on emotion and not a concerted effort to REASON or use Logic. This has been proven. THINKING is hard work and takes a little time to construct an answer.
So that is why I see EMOTION as the driver in both the Brown and Garner complaints. Garners death was not necessary. The procedures used could and should have been avoided. But there was no racial profiling (he was known to them as a loosie seller), they had been called, he resisted arrest, they reacted as trained to affect an arrest, he died due to this takedown combined with his health situation.
Thus this is NOT MURDER, they did not intend to kill him. It was an accident.
Now the question should be whether it was due to negligence or really just an accident. I personally lean toward negligence due to the grab around the neck and then them all sitting on top of the guy. But the big fault lies with the Dept for failing to teach their beat cops to recognize that they cannot always use the same takedown procedures. They need to teach some “flexibility” in applying enforcement.
This has all been lost. But who is to blame?? The Citizens have cried out against people walking away from crime. So the elected passed stronger laws. Then we bitch and moan that people are arrested for minor crimes.
Maybe those demonstrators should go home and look in the mirror. Dave is correct in this part, although I would not call us all thieves and murderers. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for the most part.
Laws and LE policies exist due to OUR desires and outcries. Bad cops happen as bad employees happen. But the POLICIES which we find disgusting are created in response to our desires.
Sorry to everyone for running on here but I am taking off fishing for three days and wanted to get some things on the table. Have fun and see ya’ll on Saturday.
Nicely put……I do not know why it is do difficult to accept reality….no one wants to deal with it.
We are trying to deal with reality Colonel. We have out of control governments at every level, jack booted thugs called cops (I have posted so much stuff on this, one has to be blind not to see it) and a country that is on the verge of much worse problems than we currently have.
Our government is purposely trying to destroy Russia. The lies of them going into Ukraine have been many, but lies non the less. The lies about who shot down the jet liner over Ukraine. How about the nice low oil prices? Think that has something to do with the economic war being waged with them? Remember all the bad crap about Sochi before the Olympics? Don’t go there, bad people have bombs in their toothpaste! What a crock of shit! Everything going on has a purpose and everyone is being fed shit sandwiches everyday by the Government and the media. That, Sir, is reality. Too bad most people’s reality is based on the shit sandwiches their fed daily. My suggestion is to stop accepting the shit being shoved down our throats. Times are changing, for the worse.
http://www.hirhome.com/iraniraq/gulfwar.htm
This is a long read, and think of how the moslem countries in the southern part of Russia accelerated the the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Shah was to stable and posed no threat to to the Soviet Union and its allies. If one continues following the threads of Zbigniew Brzezinski’s continued influence on US foreign policy I believe that our over riding policy is to keep Russia totally destabilized and as impotent as possible. He was a foremost advocate of NATO expansion. One of his more recent statements is that “Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire” ….to many threads of events to keep writing in one reply…any thoughts?.
I believe that our over riding policy is to keep Russia totally destabilized and as impotent as possible.
This reality could lead to WWIII! We are most certainly engaged in economic war with Russia. Currency wars, trade wars (which the US is engaged in with Russia) and the last and final, violent war. There is some good news, if the idiots that are elected can figure it out. We can’t invade Russian and win, nor can Russia invade the US and win. This will be with nukes, with both sides then ending it without further engagement. I’ll leave the rest to imagination 🙂
JAC, you didn’t watch the video that Dave posted , did you?
It was a good report, a great use of outside media sources and quite accurate, very unlike anything written on HuffPo or CNN or any other MSM wasteland. What I learned from the report is that the EMS people, 4 of them, did NOTHING to aid Garner. Maybe you should actually watch it, you might learn something valuable.
G, you’re not listening any better than David. JAC posts within the framework we were dealt. You guys post from an anarchist’s point of view. Arnarchy is not our system of government. That is what JAC can’t get thru to you guys, because you’re too stubborn to admit you must live within the rules or you lose. You refuse to lose because you want to live in anarchy. It’s just like trying to argue with the lefties with you guys….very frustrating.
Think of it this way. It’s not the 50s and 60s anymore. People are way more uptight now. Not responsible enough to handle it. That’s reality. You want anarchy? You’re going to get Ferguson every night…the inmates running the asylum. That’s what’s going on there, the cops are letting them have at it. Then the first thing out of your mouth is going to be …where are the cops? Or I demand my rights. Yeah? Who’s going to enforce them? Or… you can just shoot everybody yourself. None of it makes any sense.
You guys can advocate peaceful anarchy til the world ends. Maybe we’ll get there some day. We’re no where near there today. So you’re arguments are just kind of fleeting wishes, not reality. But you want to paint JAC as the crazy here? Flag thrown.
Flag thrown back at you 🙂 I never said that the cops in NYC should be convicted of anything, like JAC, I don’t think they meant to harm him. Why it happened, with all of it’s reality, is wrong and based on theft. Why should selling loosies to make a few bucks be illegal? Well, let’s see, the seller didn’t get a permit to conduct such business in the city. The seller was not paying the city what they demand in taxes on the sale of the product. Basically, the City, aka, the Boss, wasn’t getting their demands met, aka, theft (also known as taxes and fees). The cops just did what any good mob boss thug would do, there is very little difference. I don’t see this as an Anarchist view of anything. I understand that it’s the laws that have been passed that are the true cause of this tragedy. That’s reality. Now, if only those protesting could bring themselves into the real world, understand the true cause of the mess in NYC and protest that can any changes get made.
I’m not the true Anarchist like Flaggie and Dave. I see, and have written so many times, how government can operate without having authority over the people. The Anarchist’s have good honorable ideas. I don’t mind paying for roads and other important things that we all enjoy and need. Do we need police? Not as we have them today, they are far to militarized for my taste, act as if everyone is a goon and are less than honest in many cases, mainly in the populated areas. I think you would agree that today’s police are nothing like the ones on the street when we grew up. I also supported the actions of Wilson, as I see his actions as correct (JAC disagrees with me on this).
Note: I was just giving Dave some back up, as I agree with him on the NYC issue and the real cause of it. This is not what is being protested (the Boss), but rather the actions of the police (the thugs). Hopefully that clarifies things.
And to clarify, I’m for much, much smaller government, not a complete absence. I lean much closer to what Flag and Dave say versus the mess we have today. These little protest’s are BS and are mostly based on lies and misunderstand (on purpose). It’s how the Left Wing operates. The MSM just agitates it. The Feds agitate it and the cops agitate it. Ferguson is a prime example of how the cops are NOT in the business of protecting people and their property (that’s up to the individual). They are just there to arrest the offenders AFTER the fact. Maybe we need less of them and more people displaying personal responsibility 😀
Anita,
Read my post below about rationalizing, then analyze your response to Gman.
Government sucks because it violates people, yet you rationalize submission as the answer as to accept your feelings of helplessness.
We must be stubborn or living in a dream world because we don’t accept being violated?
Snap-snap-snap …wake up.
We. Have. Rules. Snap, snap.
You are a slave, …snap snap.
So are you.
Not anymore I’m not.
It may eventually get me killed, but it is a risk I am willing to take.
It doesn’t have to be that way though, …except for people like you who demand it. You’re not only demanding your own enslavement, but the enslavement of your progeny and others.
So, stop demanding it, slave. …Join the +60%
Oh! Do you have an official ‘I’m no slave ‘ card from your Davidopoly game? I’m done with this nonsense. Peace.
” I’m done with this nonsense. ”
Oh no you’re not. You’re going to continue to have to choose.
Denial and willful enslavement isn’t exactly “done”.
Haven’t seen a video yet that was not edited. From what I have seen, the cops tried to arrest him and he resisted. I still think the level of force they used was excessive and applied with brutal haste. A police training video would start with the office clearly stating, “you are under arrest”. “Turn around and put your hands on the wall”. When he didn’t comply, there would be an escalation of force until he was secured. I can also sympathize that each of those officers has no doubt had criminals fake compliance and injury to attempt escape.
But murder? No, they did not want or intend for him to die. They did not use lethal force. Their excessive force combined with his poor medical condition resulted in his death. Maybe if they had listened when he said he could not breath and not sat on his chest, he would have survived. Negligent homicide?
JAC: “LOGIC rules, emotional B.S. drools”
LOL! Made me laugh out loud~!
In addition:
MURDER…………definition
Examples
Word Origin
noun
1 Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder) and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder)
Kind of begs the question, if there is no “conditions specifically covered in law” then can a murder even occur, or is it just all “killing”. The Anarchists have it made. No written law then no murders. No matter how many are killed. Yet the Anarchists are claiming that a killing that does NOT fit the legal definition of murder, is in fact a murder and not just killing.
Am I missing something or is the serpent in fact chasing its own tail?
Has caught the tail and knows not what to do with it.
“Am I missing something or is the serpent in fact chasing its own tail? ”
Indeed you are missing something. You consistently rationalize things and thus present straw man arguments. You are very normal in this respect.
As a defense mechanism, humans tend to protect anything their ego is attached to. We tend to rationalize something unacceptable as being something acceptable, even to the point of perceiving it as something it isn’t.
In other words, we tend to bullshit ourselves into what is comfortable.
For example; Violating someone’s rights is wrong. And even though government is premised on a system of coercion and violence, therefore a violation and wrong, you rationalize it as somehow justified or not violating rights.
This is why you come up with such arguments like positing that rights require other people, or that English common law somehow makes theft acceptable, or that impeccable logic is emotionalism.
It is the same reason that Anita mistakes submission and slavery as maturity. She doesn’t want to admit that she and her son were harassed and violated by the police, so she makes believe that all is well due to her submission. She clearly sees that voting is useless, but lies to herself that it will somehow work ‘this time’.
As difficult as it may be, try to see things for what they really are. You will be better off.
Notice how myself, Gman and Flag tend to not rationalize as much, and often are the odd ones out in our discussions here. That’s why.
Nice try. I chose the lesser of two evils. Cooperate without force or cooperate with force. They win either way. Not a hard choice.
Is that why you vote?
yyyyyyyep, trying to lessen the force….because your way works so well.
So you lesson the force by demanding it continue, demanding more force?
You think force is better than respecting rights?
Did I say that David? No. Exactly how has your way helped…anything? Hasn’t even helped your mood. !/3 of the country didn’t vote. I’ll ask again…where is the threshhold? what is the majic number where your way works. It doesn’t exist.
It existed for a long time before your papered violence ever did.
The threshold is the point in which people start making up their minds that freedom is valuable, when people decide they no longer need force to live, when they start respecting each other rather than trying to force their will upon others.
” Did I say that David? No ”
By order of reason, you did. You know it is all based on force, so as to eliminate it, you demand more of it?
A nicely done video on the Ferguson issue : http://www.truthrevolt.org/videos/ben-shapiro-katy-perry-cher-and-macklemore-all-lie-about-ferguson
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/texas-pastor-dirty-faggots-want-snatch-and-rape-your-kids
http://www.executedtoday.com/category/where/saudi-arabia/
Government once again de-legitimizes itself and purpose, proves it is not there with intent to serve the will of the people.
http://news.yahoo.com/congress-abruptly-overrules-d-c-voters-nixes-marijuana-133248464.html
I’m never gonna get my dishes done…but I just hafta see how this works.
So David. You’re not a slave anymore. How exactly does that work? The minute I hear theory is the minute I quit reading…so please don’t go to theory on me.
Do you get to speed then tell the cop it’s because you’re no slave?
Do you get to slide on sales tax because you’re no slave?
Do you get to open carry in gun free zones because you’re no slave?
Do you get to skip the Universal Connectivity Charge on your phone bill because you are no slave?
Do you get to hunt deer in June because you are no slave?
How about selling loosies? Do you get a pass because you are no slave?
And when you get busted for any of these, do you get a pass because you state you are not a slave? Or do you just shoot the cop?
Loosies? Help me out. I’m not into that mind altering stuff that you’ve been known to do……is that what it’s called? 😉
The loose smokes Garner was selling. It was new to me too.
Its a New York thing. They’ve been called that for as long as I can remember.
Ah! I’ve heard them called singles.
Now for the most important question and answer. Why are “loosie’s” or “singles” being sold and bought? Because the sellers offer them at cheaper rates than local stores. WHY? TAXES! There would not be a market for Loosie’s if not for govt action and control.
” Do you get to speed then tell the cop it’s because you’re no slave? ”
I usually drive kinda slow or with the flow of traffic. If I get one anyway, I will likely ignore it, even move if necessary. It depends on convenience and the cost of the ticket. The last time, it was $35, and I feel horrible for paying it. I once saved about $14K with disobedience though.
” Do you get to slide on sales tax because you’re no slave? ”
No. It is virtually unavoidable. But I do take every opportunity to do so when available.
“Do you get to open carry in gun free zones because you’re no slave? ”
I respect the wishes of my community by not taking my gun where it is unwanted. It is about respecting my community, not coercion.
” Do you get to skip the Universal Connectivity Charge on your phone bill because you are no slave? ”
I don’t have a phone/plan. I use someone else’s.
” Do you get to hunt deer in June because you are no slave? ”
I don’t hunt. If I get hungry enough in June and there is a deer to kill/eat, the law will not influence my decision.
“How about selling loosies? Do you get a pass because you are no slave?”
I don’t sell loosies. I do buy marijuana on occasion. I do so in spite of law.
” And when you get busted for any of these, do you get a pass because you state you are not a slave? ”
I will handle it similar to a ticket or anything else. I will avoid engaging or obeying law with every opportunity.
” Or do you just shoot the cop? ”
If necessary, yes. …although I have not yet had to do so.
You can keep asking these questions and the answer will always be that I take every opportunity to avoid/circumvent law as much as possible. What I don’t do is demand it.
Oooh…what about income taxes?? Do you pay federal/state income taxes?
No, at least I haven’t filed or paid for many years.
Not long ago I received a letter in the mail stating that I ‘owed’ a couple hundred bucks. So I called the revenue folks and harassed the shit out of them, demanding they send me an itemized list of goods and/or services rendered in exchange for what I ‘owe’ them, as well as signed proof that I willingly agreed to such(0) goods and/or services.
I also made all kinds of legal threats, and cited that I have been carefully logging all hours(0) worked by the tax-man.
I dunno what they did after that. Nor do I care. My labor is mine. My guess is that to FORCE the issue, they will have to spend a lot more money and time than what it is worth to collect. (I make very little income and use no government benefits) If they come with intent to kidnap me, they are liable to get shot.
It does not always work out so well.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2013/04/05/wesley-snipes-finishes-jail-time-for-tax-evasion/2057455/
However if you are Al Sharpton….???????
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/story/news/2014/08/03/ny-post-sharpton-businesses-owe-million-tax-debt/13556445/
Well, first and foremost, my labor and time is mine, thus I owe them absolutely nothing.
Secondly, they cannot produce anything in the form of a signed document stating or proving that they’ve rendered to me any willingly received goods or services whatsoever. I am sure there is some kind of legal arguments I can wage against their attempts at extortion.
Thirdly, when I say that I make very little income, I mean that I make VERY little income. So any amount they would seek is miniscule in comparison to the time and money they would have to invest in order to attempt to collect. …and with no guarantee of them succeeding, as I would be anything but cooperative. And you cannot squeeze juice from a rock anyway.
And that is IF I actually even showed up in court. More likely, I would just ignore any court summons and easily disappear into the underground, thus making it damn near impossible or to even garnish my wages.
If they actually did spend the time and money to find me, they would have to use force, as coercion would not work for my principled mind and death wish, …in which case I would reciprocate by returning fire, thus killing as many thugs as possible and costing them even more in death benefits to widows.
Their attempts would be costly, fruitless and simply not worth the effort.
Not only that, but for reasons I will not mention, I am worth more alive than dead, Plus, they’re liable to lose their testicles.
Left alone, I will continue to mind my own business and otherwise love and respect my community causing harm to no one. They’re better off simply leaving me alone and, if for no other reason, to nickle and dime me with sales tax from small purchases.
If I’m wrong, phuk ’em, …bring it on.
🙂
“I am sure there is some kind of legal arguments I can wage against their attempts at extortion.”
Tried and failed, miserably, time and again. But is love to watch you try; always makes for some good theater!
” Tried and failed, miserably, time and again. But is love to watch you try; always makes for some good theater! ”
Then I guess I would disappear and wait for the confrontation.
My time and labor is mine.
So you DO obey laws when convenient. You are a slave.
Not really.
I will argue that it is more about avoiding unfortunate consequences for disobedience. Like most people, I regularly break the law, and without violating anyone.
If they come to my home accusing me of something I did not do, demanding entry (like they did you), it is for no reason. I will refuse or (if necessary) exercise my right to defense. If they insist, someone will likely die or experience critical injury.
See, here is the difference between you and I, Anita…
You are an active willing participant who truly believes in a broken evil system and seeks to force your will onto others..
I see through the bullshit and avoid cooperation or participation whenever possible, including violating the rights of others by proxy of said evil system.
Anita, Thou shalt not steal . That’s familiar statement as it comes from the 10 Commandments. Our fundamental and natural law deem theft as wrong. Yet, our money is taken and spent irresponsibly by the very governments, at all levels, in manners by which you and I may not approve of. This of course, is most likely attributed to the bigger governments, such as large cities, States and the Feds. A portion of our earned money is demanded, by threat of force, to pay for this irresponsible spending. While some “taxes” like local taxes to pay for road maintenance is well received, Federal taxes that pay for lifetime benefits to politicians who only serve 1 term in office isn’t exactly acceptable, is it?
Oh and don’t get me started on the drone strike that killed a US citizen and his offspring in a foreign country. That is murder, plain and simple.
CMon G! I accept your virtual world. I’m not playing your semantics in the real world. . I pay because I have to pay. You pay because you have to pay. Enough with the tax is theft bullshit. YOU ARE RIGHT OK? We agree on that. Now. Could you stay within the framework we are currently in with your arguments?
Please dont insult me and ask weather it’s acceptable to pay tax for politicians benefits. Why do you have to put it like that? No need to trap me. I’m not stupid. You dont want to pay tax for politician’s benefits…vote to change the law!
You dont want to pay tax for politician’s benefits…vote to change the law!
BWAHAHAHAHA! You are dillusional to think that that will EVER happen! These monkeys elected today are part of the problem, not the solution. Voting only (at the Fed level) allows them to continue screwing all of us. The real world, my dearest Anita, is that we have lost control of our Federal government. You and I, nor anyone here at SUFA are innocent. We, along with several generations before us have allowed this to happen. We all have to see things for what they are.
History is a great teacher. This country became a country because of a small amount of people. Much like today’s America, only a few understand the problems that we, as a nation, have. While we here may have our small disagreements, they are quite minor in the scope of things. SUFA is like my extended family, as slightly dysfunctional as it is (ROFLMAO)! I have been mostly absent, as deer hunting has been #1 in my life (it’s always been my passion, to have the time to be able to hunt deer and apply unlimited patience to the goal, and have success beyond my expectations!)
After Saturday, it’s back to being me again (until after Christmas, if I still have tags to fill). I’ve been silent on numerous issues that are of far more importance, one that I brought up only briefly today (hoping some will investigate, one has!). It’s all cool, as far as our disagreements. Most are just something to talk about to pass the time. At least we talk about it and share our differing views (lately without name calling). We continue to share and learn from each other, without any help from government 😀
” You are dillusional to think that that will EVER happen! These monkeys elected today are part of the problem, not the solution. Voting only (at the Fed level) allows them to continue screwing all of us. The real world, my dearest Anita, is that we have lost control of our Federal government. ”
I second that.
Opinions : http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/12/not-just-oil-guess-happened-last-time-commodity-prices-crashed-like/
http://www.infowars.com/lawsuit-cops-confiscate-guns-from-home-after-false-arrest/
http://allyreport.blogspot.com/2010/03/us-army-reports-iraqi-prisoner-abuse.html?m=1
Why? What made you have the need to post this? It’s old news. People have been charged and dealt with. What else do you want? Only to make us look bad. WTG DiFi, jr.
The MSN is using this stuff to keep focus away from Grubergate, this immigration slight of hand by Obama and all the rest of his “gates”. Just more shit sandwiches they call important news of the day.
Let me add, we stopped torture under the Obama Regime. Now, we just send in a drone and blow them up. 🙄 Nobodies talking about that though, mainly because it’s way to obvious (or racist).
Yes, they are talking about it G. Beckel, when asked weather he’d approve of waterboarding or drone strikes with civilian casualties…he chose drones. Saw it yesterday. Heard a clip on Fox of Brian Williams asking the same of one of his guests.
turn on Fox right now G!
FOX! Why of course FOX would bring up the obvious, their mostly Conservative in nature. I flipped it on for a little while. I don’t expect CNN or any other Left Wing rag to talk about it. They could surprise me though, if they can first get past their hatred of Bush. 🙂
Your blind hatred for all things you deem liberal or progressive is getting to you – drones have been being discussed in the MSM and ‘left wing’ sites a lot…
Buckster 😀 Nice of you to share some time with us! Hope all is well with and yours, especially that young’un. Not really blind or hatred, their actions are well known and I’m more disgusted that hateful. I’m not the type to hate because someone has differing views. It’s fun to debate those views when the opportunity arises. I’ll guess that 95% of Americans are politically ignorant, while the other 5 % has a clue and a reasoned opinion. Remember, I have said many times that the Repubs and Dems are on the same side. So let me ask, as I went and looked at Beckel’s comments, do you agree with him?
Yes, drones have been around a long time and is nothing new. I have no problem with drones and I have no problem with who is taken out by them and I have no problem with this so called “collateral” damage….shit happens in war.
There is one main issue Buck……when Bush used drones and cruise missiles, it was wrong, according to progressives……but now it is right…..what I get tired of is the double standard that is being used…….
I will state this……I can find no progressive that knows how to protect a nation and its citizens……if you know one….please point to them. Point me to a progressive that really wants to protect the United States….
A question for you, sir…..you have Feinstein’s report and later today you are going to have the Director of the CIA’s report and rebuttal…..I wonder whom you will believe?
I know a lot of progressives – myself included – who are not exactly pleased with the drone program under both Bush and now Obama. Obama has taken a lot of flak from progressives on the matter. Not sure where you guys have been!
Feinsteins report is blistering and long overdue. I await the CIA’s rebuttal, but what is the CIA going to rebut exactly? As much as I can gather, the CIA’s main point of contention will be that the techniques employed did result in useful intel – but even if that’s the case, we still tortured.
RE: drones, good for killing the enemy, bad for killing those who are not the enemy. I was very displeased when a US citizen and his son were killed by one, I felt the rule of law was ignored. I’m not quite sure we are “AT WAR” as many say. Usually that means against a nation with an army, not a group of cave dwellers who are mentally ill. But, since we HAVE to have a boogieman, it might as well be cave dwellers who are mentally ill 🙂
Not one innocent man, woman, or child was killed by torture. The same can’t be said about drone strikes. As D13 has said, other countries are far more brutal when trying to extract information. I agree with his assessment, hand over the enemy to them, let them get the answers we want. Then, our hands are clean.
Lately, my gut feeling leads me to see Russia as our near future problem, not cave dwellers who are mentally ill. They are not on the radar right now, which is why I’m concerned with them 🙂
Anita,
I posted it especially for you.
It is a reminder of what you and your votes and taxes and Islamophibia produces.
…makes me sick.
Yeeeeaaahhhh! Lay all that shit at my feet. Glad I could make you that sick.
” Glad I could make you that sick. ”
Your pleasure in making me sick by your support of such egregiousness is equally disgusting. You’re evil to the core.
And my subsequent thoughts of callousness in regard to people like you only adds to the abhorrence. Evil begets evil.
God, I hate this fuct up planet as much as I am ashamed of being one of you vile creatures.
Having a bad day I see 🙄
I haven’t heard this on the MSN, although I see why:
Illinois just voted to criminalize citizens filming police in public spaces.
“The amendment has stripped away safeguards to free speech rights from the original legislation and instituted a blanket ban on recording officials in public,” writes Steve Watson at InfoWars.com. [1] “It was passed by both the Illinois House and the Senate, with huge majorities, within two days of its introduction.”
“Only a government that lives like cockroaches in the darkness would pass a law criminalizing the act of turning on the light,” writes the Free Thought Project [2], which goes on to point out how the mainstream media is completely silent on this story. (The media censors all stories it doesn’t want you to know about, including the CDC whistleblower story, Fukushima radiation in the USA and the worsening Ebola pandemic.)
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/047944_government_tyranny_recording_police_Illinois_law.html#ixzz3LaofeItL
I don’t think will pass Constitutional argument, but I think it’s easy to see what the Illinois government is doing, protecting their thugs 🙂
This is Illinois 2nd try at this, the first being struck down by the State Supreme Court.
According to Congressman Justin Amash, Congress just passed a bill which grants the government and law enforcement “unlimited access to the communications of every American”.
When the Michigan lawmaker discovered that the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2015 had been amended with a provision that authorizes “the acquisition, retention, and dissemination” of all communications data from U.S. citizens, he desperately attempted to organize a roll call vote on the bill.
However, the legislation was passed yesterday 325-100 via a voice vote, a green light for what Amash describes as “one of the most egregious sections of law I’ve encountered during my time as a representative”.
The bill allows the private communications of Americans to be scooped up without a court order and then transferred to law enforcement for criminal investigations.
The legislation effectively codifies and legalizes mass warrantless NSA surveillance on the American people, with barely a whimper of debate.
Read the full text of Congressman Amash’s letter below, which was sent out before the bill was passed.
*********************
Dear Colleague:
The intelligence reauthorization bill, which the House will vote on today, contains a troubling new provision that for the first time statutorily authorizes spying on U.S. citizens without legal process.
Last night, the Senate passed an amended version of the intelligence reauthorization bill with a new Sec. 309—one the House never has considered. Sec. 309 authorizes “the acquisition, retention, and dissemination” of nonpublic communications, including those to and from U.S. persons. The section contemplates that those private communications of Americans, obtained without a court order, may be transferred to domestic law enforcement for criminal investigations.
To be clear, Sec. 309 provides the first statutory authority for the acquisition, retention, and dissemination of U.S. persons’ private communications obtained without legal process such as a court order or a subpoena. The administration currently may conduct such surveillance under a claim of executive authority, such as E.O. 12333. However, Congress never has approved of using executive authority in that way to capture and use Americans’ private telephone records, electronic communications, or cloud data.
Supporters of Sec. 309 claim that the provision actually reins in the executive branch’s power to retain Americans’ private communications. It is true that Sec. 309 includes exceedingly weak limits on the executive’s retention of Americans’ communications. With many exceptions, the provision requires the executive to dispose of Americans’ communications within five years of acquiring them—although, as HPSCI admits, the executive branch already follows procedures along these lines.
In exchange for the data retention requirements that the executive already follows, Sec. 309 provides a novel statutory basis for the executive branch’s capture and use of Americans’ private communications. The Senate inserted the provision into the intelligence reauthorization bill late last night. That is no way for Congress to address the sensitive, private information of our constituents—especially when we are asked to expand our government’s surveillance powers.
I urge you to join me in voting “no” on H.R. 4681, the intelligence reauthorization bill, when it comes before the House today.
/s/
Justin Amash
Member of Congress
WELCOME TO AMERIKA!
Where is the actual text of the bill?
Link?
OH crap, I forgot. http://www.prisonplanet.com/congress-passes-bill-which-grants-unlimited-access-to-communications-of-every-american.html
Seems to one of the few sites that post news that’s important to the everyday American. I’ll have more links soon, they usually show up in my email box.
Comical and worth a watch: http://www.truthrevolt.org/videos/andrew-klavan-black-leader-al-sharpton
Just another example of my not so blind disgust for Liberal’s : http://eaglerising.com/12508/public-school-tells-13-year-olds-can-sex-choose-gender/
http://bearingarms.com/democrats-commit-destroying-remainder-influence-gun-control-focus/
Can anyone guess what these Progressives “really” want but won’t use the words?
@ Buck……I understand your position somewhat,….but you throw around the word of torture pretty easily. How can you take the report of Feinstein verbatim? Well, I actually think that you do not. I know for a fact that if your youngster was kidnapped and water boarding would get her back, you would do it.
But Obama took a victory lap and credit for killing UBL when the intelligence that we received from these techniques pin pointed him..
However, if people are killed as a result of this report….how do you justify your position? I can already tell from your answer that Feinteins report is gospel to you even though NO ONE was interviewed and even you should know, that trying to interpret written documents, and probably forged ones at that, without a single interview is guilty until proven innocent.
I am a little surprised at your position….not totally…but a little.
What specifically are you surprised about?
I’m not taking the Feinstein report as gospel. I am saying that the techniques described in the report (many of which have previously been publicly known to have been employed – or are you debating this point?) amount to torture (e.g., waterboarding – or do you debate this as well?)
If my daughter was kidnapped and torturing someone was the only way of getting her back, I wouldn’t only advocate for the use of torture in that case, I would be willing to do the dirty deed. But that’s me talking as a parent with respect to my daughter. As a nation, we are better than this.
Your thinking is not that different than mine. The torture issue is old and well known. SO WHAT? It’s part of the past, let’s learn from it and move on. The Dems in Congress are not immune from culpability. They all (Congress) knew what was going on. This subject has been going on for Centuries, and will always be a part of war (and politics).
As a friend, I would waterboard (or worse) to get your child back!
It’s in the past so ignore it?? I think the report is long overdue and sheds additional light on the program that we as a nation should be aware of.
And no colonel, this is not to say I belive every word of the report as written.
One would think cops would realize their being watched ever so closely these days: http://www.prisonplanet.com/video-cop-stomps-mans-head-into-road.html
Big banks have provision in the Fed spending bill (being voted on today) that would allow them to trade high risk derivatives with smaller banks that are insured through the FDIC. This just has to be bad, why you ask? because the oil prices are going down and down, which, the last time this happened was right before the 2008 banking collapse and Stock Market correction.
My guess is that we are engaged in an economic war. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the UK and the US all seem to be involved. I think everyone knows how these things end.
Maybe some of you who are more economically intelligent can chime in and share your thoughts, Flaggie ? D13? Anyone?
Sure…it is pass the buck to the tax payer……spread the risk among FDIC insured.
Anyone notice how silent our government is on the arrest of the pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong? Can’t imagine why (cynical) comment.
That’s because our government isn’t pro-democracy supporters.
For G man……you will like this one…….I just got off the phone with a very good acquaintance of 30 years who is in a position to know…..
The CIA and the MI branches are actually becoming ecstatic about all this stuff that Feinstein has brought out…..flawed though it is…
The word is already out that any more prisoners taken in battle will not go to GITMO….they are going to non US independent contractors that have very unique interrogation units and we will still get our intelligence and the next best thing to this…….it by passes Congress and the Senate. And, I might add…..none will be paroled or get out of jail cards. Captured personnel on the battlefield will be immediately turned over to an independent contractor.
Now, if this turns out to be true…I can get on board with this real quick,
You seemed to have been spot on as to what would take place in the future 🙂
http://freedomforce.com/190/democrats-torture-report-rewriting-history/
It is my understanding that Dem leadership was aware of these techniques and remained silent and the time this report covers. This would include Pelosi and Reid. Any comments on this Buck?
@Anita, This link is for the islamaphobe claim that you have been hit with. Enjoy 🙂
http://freedomforce.com/197/isis-cites-quran-slavery-mistreatment-female-slaves-child-rape/
He wont admit it, neither will Flag. We’re the only bad guys.
Maybe the truth is actually coming out. Much of this could have been hidden from the world, like some secret society. I can say, it doesn’t make the religion look very good. However, this is the radical version, so I withhold any judgment on the religion as a whole. You live much closer to what and who they are in this country. Just curious, how are they up your way? (I don’t have any near me so I don’t have anything to go by, locally).
I don’t think your an Islamaphobe, really wouldn’t care if you were! 🙂 We are all entitled to our opinion, likes and dislikes.
I am really disappointed in humanity today because so many people think like you, so many exhibit the same self righteous solipsism, ignorance, apathy, short attention span and lack of critical reasoning.
I read that torture report and see humans being tortured by the state, not my state, not Muslims, just another government, which has a long well documented history of atrocities and abuses, once again violating people, only it happens to be Muslims this time around.
I post it as a reminder only to have it reduced to a part of the ‘news’ cycle.
I see how the main stream media conveniently forgets to report it when a Christian knifes someone up for being a witch or runs over an innocent teen, or rants about ‘killing faggots’, but is more than happy to report the Muslim in Oklahoma who cuts off a woman’s head, and never mind that an armed citizen stopped more murders.
You’re being brainwashed to associate Islam with evil as to muster your support for warmongering, as well as to desensitize you when such atrocities like torture camps are revealed. We wouldn’t want you to question your precious state, now would we?
People are more than happy to cite it when a state supported terrorist organization like ISIL does something horrible, but fails to understand or admit the state itself being the root cause, or that the state has killed millions of innocent people, or tortured many thousands.
ISIL are terrorists, but not states? Maybe the stars and stripes should be replaced with logos of weapons contractors and media giants?
There’s a ‘thin line between entertainment and war’.
You are a Christian Nation when it comes to denying religious freedom to Satanists, or until someone calls you out for supporting the state killing and torture of innocent Muslims. Either that or it is somehow justified to kill Muslims because they are somehow an evil religion, because some of them are radicals. And Satanists are evil and shouldn’t be tolerated because, …well, …just because.
No, you’re not Islamophobes but yet you make the case to justify Islamophobia, citing the minority who are evil. It must be all of them, right?
Oh but wait a minute, the Qur’an says to kill people who aren’t Muslims, never mind the many verses in The Bible stating the same garbage about other religions, or gays and adulterers, or those who work on the sabbath.
The state decides it wants to steal even more money, tries to arrest a black man, but kills him instead. But he was breaking the law, so it isn’t about race. Brilliant observation! So when you criticize the Demopublican ‘lefties’ for race baiting, don’t forget to also mention Infowars and the right-wing media doing the same thing by using a Muslim. It’s not race baiting, it’s religion/culture baiting, right? ..or is it acceptable because a minority of Muslims are radicals?
And in the middle of this great big god awful quagmire debacle of public opinion and idealism, a population exists that actually get it, so some of them decide to put aside their differences, focus on their commonality, and get together to worship in a ceremony to demonstrate that peace and harmony is possible…
…only to be disrupted by yet another stupid victim of the system of division, hate and fear.
WAKE UP!
The main attraction, distraction
Got ya number than number than numb
Empty ya pockets son, they got you thinkin’ that
What ya need is what they selling
Make you think that buying is rebelling
From the theaters to malls on every shore
Tha thin line between entertainment and war
The front line is everywhere, there be no shelter here
Spielberg, the nightmare works so push it far
Amistad was a whip, the truth was feathered and tarred
Memory erased, burned and scarred
Trade in ya history for a VCR
Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
Fourth Reich culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got ya searchin’ for
Tha thin line between entertainment and war
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
Hospitals not profit full
Yet market bulls got pockets full
To advertise some hip disguise
View tha world from American eyes
Tha poor adore keep fiendin’ for more
Tha thin line between entertainment and war
They fix the need, develop the taste
Buy their products or get laid to waste
Coca Cola is back in the veins of Saigon
And Rambo too, he got a dope pair of Nikes on
Godzilla, pure muthafuckin’ filler
To keep ya eyes off the real killer
Cinema, simulated life, ill drama
Fourth Reich culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got ya searchin’ for
Tha thin line between entertainment and war
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here
Tha front line is everywhere
American eyes, American eyes
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothing behind
American eyes, American eyes
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothing behind
Just stare
Just stare
Just stare
Just stare
Relive the nightmare
God, I love RATM gotta play some more…
@Dave, Can’t leave you out (or me for that matter). Why we hate taxes: http://freedomforce.com/176/coburn-highlights-tax-breaks-celebrities-luxury-good-gambling-latest-tax-decoder-report/
Coburn even agrees. He said that Washington politicians are hesitant to remove certain tax expenditures because “the tax code has become a powerful and elaborate system of rewards and punishments used to coerce Americans and manipulate the economy.”
When rioters and “protesters” defend criminals and attack the police it is not a protest. It is an attack. When radicals and rioters defend the guilty and attempt to prosecute the innocent, it is not a protest. It is an attack. When they make race an issue when it is clearly not an issue, it is an attack. When whites are regarded as guilty before the fact and blacks guiltless even after the facts show they are guilty, it is not a protest; it is an attack. It is a calculated attack and the target is America, is us.
“No Justice, No Peace!” is the cry of modern lynch mobs. It means “Our Justice, Or Else” – or else we will burn your city down. Or else we will burn your system down. This is the agenda of the left in the streets and of their supporters in the White House and the Democratic Party: “We are going to fundamentally transform the United States of America: your system of justice, your system of governance and your system of laws. If we can’t do that, we are going to burn it down.
http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/horowitz-lefts-war-against-justice-and-peace-what-conservatives-still-must-understand
Political comedy or just reality put in nice terms: http://lastresistance.com/9010/conservative-comedian-destroys-illogical-beliefs-modern-liberals/
A Liberal, still trying to keep the money flowing into his bank account, is losing: http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/al-gore-speaks-half-empty-room-rehashes-debunked-films-claims
He should donate his BS wealth to the poor and join them, one more welfare RAT isn’t so bad.
Al Gore, aka ASSHOLE, should be arrested for fraud and sued in civil court for the same. I can’t believe people almost made him President of the US. They made up for it in 2008.
Yes I know my enemies
They’re the teachers who taught me to fight me
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are American dreams
Barbarisms by Barbaras
With pointed heels
Victorious victorious kneel
For brand new spankin’ deals
Marching forward hypocritic and
Hypnotic computers
You depend on our protection
Yet you feed us lies from the tablecloth
La LA La La La La La La hoooo!
Everybody’s going to the party have a real good time
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine
Kneeling roses disappearing into
Moses’ dry mouth
Breaking in the Fort Knox stealing
Our intentions
Hangars sitting dripped in oil
Crying freedom
Handed through obsoletion
Still you feed us lies from the tablecloth
La La La La La LA La La hoooo!
Everybody’s going to the party have a real good time
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine
Everybody’s going to the party have a real good time
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine
Blast off
It’s party time
And we don’t live in a fascist nation
Blast off
It’s party time
And where the fuck are you?
Where the fuck are you?
Where the fuck are you?
Why don’t presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why don’t presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Kneeling roses disappearing into
Moses’ dry mouth
Breaking in the Fort Knox stealing
Our intentions
Hangars sitting dripped in oil
Crying freedom
Handed through obsoletion,
Still you feed us lies from the tablecloth
La La La La La La La Lalala hooo!
Everybody’s going to the party have a real good time
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine
Everybody’s going to the party have a real good time
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sun
Where the fuck are you?
Where the fuck are you?
Why don’t presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why don’t presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they alwyas send the poor?
They always send the poor
They always send the poor
WTF???????????????????????????????????????
You are straight up LAME Dude!
I’m outta SUFA if this stupid shit doesn’t get taken down.
Take a good look, Anita.
Do you find it ‘offensive’? How do you think they feel?
You vote for it. You support it. But I am lame for simply drawing your attention to the eventual outcome of your actions?
What is the real ‘stupid shit’?
Anita,
You may interpret the things I post as harsh or offensive, or disagreeable, or whatever word you prefer to use (“stupid shit”).
As difficult as it may be, we have to stand up and take an honest view of the cold hard truth sometimes. We have to exhibit courage in speaking for what is right, in spite of all that tells us otherwise.
Forget the nonsense. It’s all going to eventually boil down to right and wrong, good and evil.
We have to correct it. We have to change. We have to get over our hang-ups and learn to get along, to put aside all the fear and hate and division and various bullshit we’re being bombarded with daily, to shed all that is holding us down. We have to step outside of our comfort zone and break the cycle or we are going to end up in a very bad position even worse than it is now.
If that means pissing people off, so be it.
SCREW YOU!
You may need pictures to get things across your own thick skull. I don’t. And neither does my son who was sitting right next to me when I opened SUFA. We were both extremely offended. And we didnt need multiple postings to get the idea. You did that with malice and it was uncalled for. My son is 16. He can somewhat process something like that. What if I had my granddaughter on my lap when I opened SUFA. What about other people in the world who did have their grandchildren on their lap? I sure don’t need you influencing my son into your twisted way of thinking.
GOODBYE!
David, I interpret your words and posts as deliberately offensive and with hostile intent.
“If that means pissing people off, so be it.”
I don’t have a problem with stating a truth as you see it. How you do it and state it is a different matter. I don’t recall anyone here posting an ISIS beheading video. We all know it happened. That does not mean we want to watch it or be forced to view something horrible. Post any link you like and anyone that wants to can and will then view. If you have a problem with that, take yourself elsewhere.
Thanks LOI or whoever. You have no idea the level of my rage…and now I feel it returning.
I’ll see ya ’round. 😉
It’s me. Hard to do this with a day job and a life. But sorry it was up so long before I checked back in.. If it happens again, you can email me for a quicker response.
Almost did, but figured it was too late. Thanks for the backup, was hoping it wasn’t just me.