Pearl Harbor: Did FDR Know?

pearlThere have been many discussions about the 1941 sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.  Many folks claim that FDR knew it was coming and kept it quiet in order to sell the United States entrance into the war, which prior to the attack, the majority of US citizens were against.  Let the discussion move forward with a simple note:  I personally believe that the attack was allowed and kept quiet.  I have many reasons to believe this as well.  Let’s chat!  😀

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Comments

  1. Let it rip Colonel. 🙂

  2. Dale A Albrecht says:

    Gman…I’ll jump to a more recent even 9/11. Did Bush know, did Bush plan etc.

    I firmly believe that the intelligence communities did know SOMETHING was going to happen, fairly imminently and it would involve an airliner. And it would involve flights coming to the US. The exact plan, or timing was a “we do not know”. Why do I feel that way is that I flew from Amsterdam to Dulles 2 days before 9/11. Any airliner scheduled to the US was so thoroughly gone over and I have never gone through so many security checks in my life. We were satnding room only way out into the parking lots. All other airlines NOT going to the US boarded normally. Even during all the high jackings in the 70’s for money, or to Cuba. Traveled to Germany during the 1st Gulf War and it was fairly normal by European standards. In and out of Italy during the height of terrorist activity in the 70’s, kidnappings of PM’s you name it. The Europeans have had a lot of practice with airport screening and they absolutely profile, but the normal checks are professional not like our amateur, make job program called the TSA.
    One of the comments after 9/11 and how could they have missed this in Boston, The answer was…without a serious event, the American people would NOT have TOLERATED anything like the TSA, much less the approach the Europeans take,
    Did a whole lot of Federal agencies totally F/U and not do their jobs….absolutely starting with Immigration. Are these agencies continuing to F/U even to this day and that includes the State Dept that IGNORED direct warnings and information.
    We have to continue pressing making us 100% energy independent from the M/E and that does not mean more wind and solar. When we make them not relevant like the age of exploration did, things will change. Stop pushing Russia into the dark side again. Europe has some soul searching about what they are going to do, because they have just about lost all cultural pride and cease to exist in a decade or so if things keep going the way they are……..like putting NATO in all the “freed” slavic countries again pushing events where they probably would not have gone…..This is not the same as what Japan was doing that caused events to evolve to the point of Pearl Harbor.
    Everyone went through at least 11 serious security checks before you exited Dulles.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Dale

      While expanding NATO broke a promise made by Reagan, making the US untrustworthy, I am not convinced it really made a difference in Putin’s long game.

      That is because Putin is Putin. What we did do however, is give him a great excuse and cover. Also a means of getting his people behind him.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        So why be stupid and give him the cover? The EU has been equally as stupid. But they are the ones dependent on Russia’s resources and the M/E by their own decisions. By getting into those positions, actions that could be otherwise avoided are dealt with in a reckless and dangerous manner.

        What I see though when one looks at the conflict in the M/E it’s a geopolitical chess match between the west. that is the US and Britain, and Russia formerly the USSR. Administrations came and went and there were subtle changes of policies to make people believe things are different, but since the 50’s and Britain hooked us into Iran with the scare of the big bad bear seizing Iran, what really has changed?.

    • Not going to go 911 yet, that’s a big one, I am looking forward to the Pearl discussion……911………….maybe next? 😀

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        The US Federal agencies charged with safe guarding the citizens of the USA were a totally failure and nothing but a circle jerk. Are they better now? Not much from what I can see. The evidence is in by looking at the quality of background checks performed by these same agencies. So is there an alterior motive…probably, especially when the personnel can not be prosecuted and are protected by law…..except the dealer

        • Dale A Albrecht says:

          Can anyone envision the rapid response of literally shutting off Boston from the world as quickly as the government did, with military force, after the Marathon bombing. Especially after the State Dept IGNORED a direct warning from Russia about these two Chechyans.

          And everyone rolled over and accepted it. I’m sure the government is surprised as how docile the people have become so quickly. Even after the Snowden revelations, which confirmed what was suspected about the governments invasion of our privacy…narry a peep.

      • 911 next? That would be interesting.

        I am of the opinion that Bush knew it was coming….a lot of people knew it was coming. A lot of people got rich because of 911. Put options? Building 7? I’ll stop there for now. 🙂

  3. Just A Citizen says:

    Re: this Russian interference in our elections.

    The left wing media is attacking Trump for not believing the intelligence community. Oh the irony.

    But if you look closely you will see TWO things going on and this is another way Trump plays and the media doesn’t get it. They allow two interpretations by spreading their BS headlines.

    In this case it is the accusation that Russia “interfered” in our elections. But what happened? If the Russians did the hacking all they did was hack the DNC and Podesta. Apparently not succeeding in hacking the RNC, per the FBI.

    Russia did NOT release this information. Again assuming they did the hacking. They gave it to Wikileaks. It was WIKILEAKS who actually released the information in a way that might have had a negative impact on Clinton.

    So why the constant howling about Russia? Especially given the US track record in interfering in other nation’s elections. And of course given that the Dem’s ridiculed Romney over the Russia comment.

    Best Trump quote on the topic so far: “These are the same people who told us there were WMD’s in Iraq”. OUCH!

    • A.J. Delgado ✔ @AJDelgado13
      Still confused by this theory.
      Russia meddled to help Trump… and gave Hillary Clinton the popular vote?
      12:23 PM – 10 Dec 2016

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        And only meddled in three swing States that were close in the end. That is why they’re called swing States, yet they are not always that….what about NC, FL, OH. These States were all possibles of going either way, yet there is no accusation of Russian meddling there.

        It’s all a magicians act to eliminate the electoral college and go straight popular vote. We might as well have the State and Congressional election 1st, and then have Congress elect the president. out of the candidates left standing after the primaries. Trump would have still won.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      And missed the complete meltdown in the USSR, not that we were not trying to achieve that, but theintelligence agencies were totally were blind.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      How to create a fake ip address. The internet is full of the ways. Do the intelligence agencies and the MSM think that everyone is so stupid to think that the Russian intelligence agencies would leave their fingerprints all over the alleged hacks?….ah yes, I do believe they do.

    • I don’t get Hillary blaming Russia for her loss. Isn’t that like having an affair and then blaming the person who told your spouse about it for your divorce? The democrats can only blame themselves for the content of the emails that were hacked.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        It’s the culture of being a “Victim” Nothing is your fault. Been in the political bag of tricks openly since the 70’s. More in one party than the other though.

  4. Dale A Albrecht says:

    “Although we are deeply disappointed in today’s decision by the Michigan Supreme Court not to hear our appeal that would have allowed Michigan’s recount to finish, we are not surprised given the political motives of the majority. The fact is that in Michigan, political cronyism, bureaucratic obstruction, and legal maneuvering have run roughshod over the democratic process,” Stein said in a statement responding to the Michigan Supreme Court’s decision.

    Stein will hold a “rally for democracy” protesting the decision in front of Detroit’s Cobo Center on Saturday at 2 pm ET.

    Let me get this straight….Jill Stein is charging political cronyism against the Republicans in Michigan one of the bluest of the blue States, until all the jobs headed elsewhere to get away from the Democratic and union stranglehold for decades.

    Plus further in the article….Wisconsin is continuing their recount and will be done in a few days. The reports are that the results WILL NOT change. What a friggin publicity stunt

  5. Gman……if you feel that FDR kept quiet, then you must support the theory that we sold scrap metal to the Japanese in order to build their military might, that the Admirals and Generals in charge conspired with FDR to group all the Pacific fleet inside a shooting gallery, group all the bombers and fighters in the open in straight lines to facilitate a complete victory by the Japanese, to purposely keep the carrier groups outside the battle zone, and allow the systematic destruction and loss of life and wounded to exceed 5,000. Next, by keeping the carrier groups outside the zone of destruction, FDR knew that the Japanese did not have the resources to invade the United States and the carrier groups could effectively check the Japanese long enough to bring our military industrial complex into full production.

    Do you believe this theory?

    • Let me begin by saying that our political leaders have proven to be nothing short of narcistic sociopaths. These people, who achieve the power of the highest office in out country, have an issue with legacy, as in their legacy. The subject of “legacy” has been high as of late, concerning the current sociopath in office.

      Let me touch on a few things you stated: “then you must support the theory that we sold scrap metal to the Japanese in order to build their military might,”

      YES! Our idiots in charge have armed and supported our future enemies quite often, including our current threats, ISIS, Al Qeada and old enemies Saddam Hussain and Iraq. This isn’t unique, it’s what sociopaths do.

      that the Admirals and Generals in charge conspired with FDR to group all the Pacific fleet inside a shooting gallery, group all the bombers and fighters in the open in straight lines to facilitate a complete victory by the Japanese, NO! I do not believe the higher Flag officers were in the know. I believe FDR and Washington insiders perpetuated a false sense of security. I don’t have any reason to blame our military people, it’s not in our nature to allow such stuff. It is, however, in the nature of political sociopath’s. I’m a vet and believe our military officers would act to save lives of our own, not play the kind of politics that get our folks killed.

      to purposely keep the carrier groups outside the battle zone, YES, this is clear evidence that SOMETHING was known. The ships destroyed were outdated and the (then) war hawks, aka the military industrial complex, saw a huge opening, they won, big time. We got our new Navy, Air Force, Army and Marines BECAUSE of WWII. Follow the money and you will find the answers, LOL> 🙂

      FDR knew that the Japanese did not have the resources to invade the United States and the carrier groups could effectively check the Japanese long enough to bring our military industrial complex into full production. BINGO!!!!!!!! You just answered the key question as to why we entered WWII.

      I believe what is proven fact…….our government has sent our people to war for all the wrong reasons. NO country can invade the US, even today, with all the technology. NO country would be that stupid. Our main enemy is our elected sociopaths that keep sending our kids into death traps, for no good reason. Lies are not good reasons

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      “to bring our military industrial complex into full production”

      Which had been ramping up for two years, so it almost hit the ground running. The navy stalled the Japanese at the Coral Sea and defeated a vastly superior in size fleet at Midway within 6 months.

      Colonel…FYI, after Army defeated Navy yesterday, my friends “Army” ship washed the Navy’s tears away with firehoses….I hope they got photos

  6. Dad went to his grave with the firm belief that FDR sold them out.

    This is what he told us. About one month prior to 12/7 they went on a full war time alert. The orders were posted on the bulletin board and signed by FDR. All leaves were canceled. The planes at Wheeler Field were dispersed on the field, armed and periodically warmed up. Many were in netted bunkers. The were issued side arms and ammo for both the side arm and their rifles. For the side arm, the order was to load a clip and chamber a round. They were a hammer click away from firing.

    Sometime during this period before Thanksgiving, Dad got a pass to go down to Pearl where he boarded the USS West Virginia to meet his uncle Ray. Ray was 6 months older and they had grown up together. Ray was cook, and grilled steaks for them which they ate in the Admiral’s mess. They also got together with another HS friend, Bub who was in the Army at Schofield Barracks. (Dad’s graduating class was 7 students, the entire HS had less than 60.) Uncle Ray was home and discharged by Dec. 1. Bub survived the attack. We got together with his family every New Years Eve.

    On the 5th of Dec., they were ordered to disarm the planes and line them up in front of the hangers in preparation for a General’s and Admiral’s inspection of the island. This had to come directly from Gen. Short and Adm. Kimmel. At Wheeler Field, the planes were lined up with military precision using tape measures and string. Nothing was said about sabotage. All side arms and ammo were returned to the the armory in one of the hangers.
    Please note that the Honolulu paper the weekend before warned that the Japanese were to strike this weekend. It was assumed it would be in the Philippines or SE Asia but there was general concern for Hawaii as well. Remember, Dad enlisted one year earlier and asked for Hawaiian duty so he could be there on day one.

    The men fell out for inspection at 0900 on Saturday morning. At 1000, the inspection was cancelled and passes were given for men to go to town for the first time in a month for most of them. Dad went to diner with a friend and had a couple of glasses of wine. They agreed to meet in the morning for breakfast and church and then to work in their photo lab in the afternoon. After that Dad went to a movie oddly enough called “Don Winslow in the Navy, the Attack on Pearl Harbor”. The story line followed Billy Mitchell’s plan.

    He got back to his tent around midnight. His tent was located in the area between hangers 2 & 3, just across the street from the still aligned planes. Shortly before 0800, he dressed in class A’s and stepped out into the street. He saw a friend named Chadwick, heard a machine gun, looked up and saw a plane with a red meat ball. The plane had just dropped the first bomb at Wheeler which was heading straight for him. He yelled a Chadwick and dove back into the tent for his helmet, empty rifle, and gas mask. The bomb exploded and leveled the tent taking the lives of his 5 tent mates who were either still in their bunks or had just jumped up. When he came to, he bled from the ears and nose and his teeth were loose. Otherwise he was unscratched. He crawled out from under the tent and pulled it back to find his tent mates and shortly after he found Chadwick in the street.
    At this point he proceeded to the hanger with the armory, grabbing a crowbar on the way. Others saw his intent and lined up. A 2nd Lt came up and ordered them stop because they had no orders to open the armory. Someone grabbed the bar and crowned the Lt after which Dad broke the hasp and start passing out ammo and arms.

    He always said, had they been given 30-60 min warning, the battle would have been totally different. Had there been no orders for an inspection on Saturday morning, things would have been different. In his own words, “No Admiral or General in his right mind would rescind a presidential war alert to hold a damn inspection!”

    I think FDR knew more than what has been told. I do think the damage was far greater than anyone expected. Had they had a 60 min warning, they would have had the fighters aloft and the result would have been totally different.

    Dad never had anything good to say about FDR.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4740-pearl-harbor-hawaii-was-surprised-fdr-was-not

      Notice the words FDR used in his campaign about “not sending our boys” Johnson used the same exact rhetoric to get elected in ’64.

      • This is a summary of Stinnet’s book that I referenced the other day. I found it compelling. I have also read Prange’s At Dawn We Slept. It’s premise is that it was the confluence of a series of blunders and lack of alertness that caused us to be caught flat footed. I do believe that there was a strong component of the latter. However, had the commanders in Hawaii had the pertinent information, I believe we would have been much more alert and not caught by complete surprise. Letting Japan strike first was a good political maneuver. War with the Axis was inevitable. I cannot imagine what the world would be like if we had stayed out and allowed Japan to conquer most of Asia, Australia, and New Zealand and Germany to dominate Europe possibly even Britain. However, it was not necessary to allow such a complete surprise and such total devastation and loss of life.

        • T Ray…part of my paper research was on the following subject that you mentioned.

          “the confluence of a series of blunders and lack of alertness that caused us to be caught flat footed.”

          The Admiralty and the Army was still mired in WWI thinking. My research revealed that most senior officers refused to believe that the Japanese, much less any other nation, had the technical knowledge to pull of this attack. ( I am speaking only of the physical attack and not the political things that may or may not have led up to it ). There was realtively no military intelligence back then that was in place in Japan…either on land or on sea. I found that whatever intelligence there was that was sent from covert agents was largely over looked in place of diplomatic intelligence that was believed to be the best source. In other words a great misdirection. The Japanese were experts at that. But to go on…..my research revealed that the Admiralty refused to believe that the Japanese could mass a naval armata of such magnitude. In addition, they believed that there was no way, logistically, the Japanese could even maintain enough secrecy much less the physical means to pull off such an attack. The Admiralty was wrong.

          The Army General’s, likewise. were caught in the same vacuum. Mired in WWI thinking, no one thought that the Japanese could amount any sizeable force to be landed anywhere. They also thought that the Japanese did not have the logistics, much less the means to transport enough forces anywhere.

          They even resorted the to WWI way of thinking that the best way to defend their assets was to put them all together. Trench warfare designates.

          Consequently, it was still widely suspected that war was inevitable due to several factors. It has been widely claimed that the United States provoked the war with Japan because of:
          (1) freezing her assets in America, (2) closing the Panama Canal to her shipping, (3) progressively halting vital exports to Japan and joining Britain in an all-out embargo (4) sending a hostile note to the Japanese ambassador implying military threats if Tokyo did not alter its Pacific policies.

          Now, did this actually prompt the Japanese into war with the United States? Or were these normal civilian diplomatic strategies to try to stem the mass aggression in the East? I think you need to answer that question first. No shots were fired and no other types of military aggression against the Japanese were accomplished.

          One thing that jumped out to me was the non sharing of information with the military. Our zeal to have civilians in charge of our military ( supposedly to prevent coups ) led to territorial disputes among cabinets and the military….and that still exists today. I think this was a serious mistake. Not some preconceived notion of purposely provoking war and offering the Hawaiian Islands as bait.

          • I will get back to you after work. Do not have the time to respond now.

          • Dale A Albrecht says:

            Gen. Mitchell proved planes could sink a battleship…granted it was anchored and not shooting back but the concept was proved and he was court martialed. The Admiral’s discounted the exercise that attacked the Panama Canal by carrier. They totally ignored the SUCCESSFUL attack by outmoded carrier biplanes (swordfish) against the Italian fleet at Taranto that had happened earlier. Those lessons were not lost on Japan and Yamamoto.

    • I do not know very many people that liked FDR.

      There are so many conspiracy theories out there about war with the Germans, war with Japan….I have no way of defeating these theories because that is all they are…theories.

      I suppose we could have left Japan totally alone in the east and let them do their thing. I suppose we can leave China alone and let them do their thing. Imperial Japan was on the march…no question about it. The League of Nations had proven itself toothless like NATO and the United Nations of today. Japan was openly attacking countries for their natural resources. There is no reason to believe they would have stopped in the East. Their own design showed them taking Australia and New Zealand and then moving to Southern Africa to link up with the Germans in Central Africa. Imperial Japan started its asian conquest in 1929 well before FDR.

      So, here is my question. Why do you feel that an oil embargo was designed to start a war?

      • . Why do you feel that an oil embargo was designed to start a war?

        I’m not sold that the oil embargo was to start the war, but part of the equation that forced Japan’s hand as far as their expansion desires. It’s not a question of did FDR do anything to provoke, but did he know that the attack was coming and kept it quiet.

        • Just A Citizen says:

          Gman

          The entire general staff AND the two commanders in Hawaii were warned of an imminent attack by FDR’s administration. The command staff were convinced War was coming despite the political efforts to negotiate a peace. Which by mid 1941 was believed to be a dead end process but one which needed to be pursued for many reasons, including our need to continue war preparations.

          • How cool, you watched Tora Tora Tora too the other night. 🙂

          • Dale A Albrecht says:

            Here’s a thought…..Isn’t it harder for a sabateur to destroy large portions of the assets at hand if they are kept dispersed and not collected into one basket? To protect against sabatoge and line everything up defies logic to me. Wouldn’t an ambush of the Japanese air armada as it crossed into US waters and the north shore of Oahu accomplished the same outcome….us entering the war? Japan could not have engaged in much air combat due to the limited ranges of their planes with no chance to land and refuel, nor risk the bombers loaded with ordinance. They would probably have beat feet when confronted. Conjecture of course. I would have liked to have seen the court martial of Kimmel and Short if they had defied Washington’s orders/advice had they successfully defended Pearl.

            The fleet may have sortied, but would have stood no chance of catching the more modern ships of the Japanese fleet. If the Japanese had stayed and confronted the US fleet on the open sea, the ships would have been lost unrecoverable in deep water instead of in shallow Pearl Harbor

            • Just A Citizen says:

              Dale

              Not necessarily. Because planes on the runway would be easier to guard than those placed in hangars and bunkers. More visible to the guards out in the open.

              • Dale A Albrecht says:

                maybe…but I don”t buy it.

                Like putting the barracks next to the perimeter fence in Khobi Towers SA Easy pickings.

          • Seriously though, we are chatting about the belief of many that FDR knew of the coming attack, but stayed silent to gain the public support to enter the war, which he didn’t have prior to the Pearl attack.

            • Just A Citizen says:

              gman

              FDR did not keep any information on the attack to himself. What did happen was that some key information was not shared by the commander with all the commanders under them. The war warning, for example, was not shared with the Admiral who was commanding the task force which sailed to Wake, with the carrier Lexington. Yet it was shared with Nimitz, who was running planes to Midway on the Enterprise.

              Information on the growing tensions with Japan was published in the newspapers on a regular basis. The Administration even conducted briefings for the press on the breakdown of talks and the growing threat of war.

              I often wonder why people cannot accept the reality that humans make mistakes and that Pearl Harbor is just one more example of that kind of failure. The commander in Hawaii had standing orders to shore up defenses and take action to defend the fleet. HE FAILED to carry out his orders in one key area. Defense of the norther route to the islands. Another was in not ordering a general alert to take up positions and prepare for war, when given a warning by the White House and Military brass.

              No, instead we gin up conspiracies to explain what happens. Ignoring that the conspiracies themselves are far more difficult to explain than the simply fact that people screw up. Like a lower officer dismissing radar evidence of a massive flight of planes approaching Oahu because he thought they were bombers arriving from the mainland.

              • Damn, that was exactly what was portrayed in Tora, Tora, Tora. to a freaking tee. I was actually watching the scenes in the movie while reading your post.

                As far as the conspiracy part. It’s not all that far fetched to consider that FDR may have known, blew it off, kept it quiet, whatever, knowing he needed the people to back any decision to enter the war (which was inevitable anyway). This type of thinking is common in political sociopaths, including the last two Presidents. Not to mention there are several books that also cover the subject. Maybe from someone who was there can help brighten the lights:

                T-Ray says:
                December 8, 2016 at 11:08 am (Edit)

                Careful Col., this one can be a mine field. There is a book on this theory and it is quite convincing. I have it around the house somewhere. Many academics claim the hypothesis is debunked but I am not so sure. FDR did want us in the war as soon as possible. This I do know. Dad said he read the orders to go on a full wartime alert in early Nov. The orders were posted on the BB and signed by FDR. Kimmel was concerned that they did not know where the Japanese carriers were and sent out a scout party of ships the weekend before. He was ordered to bring them back. At Wheeler Field, the planes were dispersed on the field, armed and periodically warmed up. They were in bunkers. All personnel were issued side arms, ammo and told to load clips. On Dec. 5, the were told to prepare for a General and Admirals inspection of the islands because the fleet was home. Their sidearms and ammo was collected and locked into the armory that Dad busted into on Dec. 7. The planes were disarmed and aligned with precision in front of the hangers and across the street from tent area that Dad was living in. They fell out for the inspection Sat. morn but at 10 am were dismissed and passes were issued for the first time in a month. Of course many of the guys headed for the bars. Dad went out for dinner and then a movie, a serial about Don Winslow in the Navy, this one was the “Attack on Pearl Harbor”. The next morning he woke for chow and church, dressed in Class A’s and stepped out of his tent. He heard a machine gun, looked up and saw a plane with a red insignia and a the first bomb drop. He dove back into the tent for his rifle (empty), helmet and gas mask. When he woke up, the tent was on top of him and his 5 tent mates were dead.
                He adamantly believed FDR set them up.
                Had the Short and Kimmel been given all the pertinent intelligence, had the Ward’s report of sinking a sub been believed, had the radar operators been believed, had the Navy and Ari Corps had scouts out around the islands, had the planes at Wheeler remained in their ready state, they would have had sufficient warning to at least defend themselves. On top of that, why was MacArthur caught flatfooted when he had hours of warning from Pearl.

                You are free to think that so many people were stupid all at the same time, but I have a hard time believing all those high ranking, highly trained military men could all be that stupid at the same time.

              • Naturally, the common people don’t want war, neither in Russia,nor in England, nor for matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in in any country.–Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg Trials

  7. KNIGHTSTOWN, Ind. — The American Civil Liberties Union is suing a central Indiana town over the display of a cross as part of its Christmas decorations.

    The Indianapolis Star reported that the ACLU’s Indiana chapter and Knightstown resident Joseph Tompkins argue that the Christian symbol on display in the Knightstown town square violates the First Amendment. The lawsuit is seeking for removal of the cross, monetary damages and declaration that the cross display violates the First Amendment.

    CBS affiliate WTTV reported that the suit alleges that the Latin cross “is the preeminent symbol of Christianity, representing the instrument of the crucifixion of Jesus.” So if the display is religious, the suit argues, it has no business on town property.

    Court documents say that the illuminated cross is atop a large evergreen tree and has for a number of years. The documents say there are no other holiday decorations on the square.

    The documents go on to say that every day, Tompkins “is forced to come into direct and unwelcome contact” with the cross on top of the tree as he drives through town. This, the suit says, has caused him “irreparable harm,” which can only be remedied by taking the cross down and paying Tompkins monetary damages.

    “You gotta sit down and talk about it before you file the lawsuits,” said Knighstown resident Kevin Richey to WTTV.

    The town of about 2,200 residents is about 40 miles east of Indianapolis.

    Town officials didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment from the newspaper or The Associated Press.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      The article should go on and say what does Tompkins believe in? If he is some other religion then tolerance comes to mind, that’s what we’re being told to do daily. If he is an atheist…..what does it matter to him it’s just an ornament.

    • Yes, there are plenty of liberals here in Indiana that get there wittle feewings huwt. I was so disgusted after reading this article yesterday, that I had to go outside in the snow to cool off.

      I’m tempted to send this person $2, a tissue, and a shiny new safety pin. Geeezzzsh.

    • If he is harmed by viewing a cross on public property this year, will he be harmed by viewing one on private property next year? This just seems hateful to me, wanting to stamp out something that other people find joy in.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        These are bitter and sour people that as much as they espose diversity actually want it hidden away and I’m sure many of them preach tolerance. They are the intolerant ones and should be discounted.

        I am of the opinion that the public square is just that, public. It’s not a political statement nor an endorsement of any faith above another. All groups should be able to display their faith (at the appropriate time) in town squares and sometimes they may overlap. How else are we to know the makeup of the true diversity of the town. If they are left up permenent, that is not appropriate

  8. Dale A Albrecht says:

    WWI and the Luisitania. The ship was sunk early in the war and the US entered the conflict two years later. I always remember the history books and the battle cry “remember the Luisitania” as the overriding reason for our entry. The history books implied we entered quite quickly. Even Wilson ran a campaign leading up to his second term…”He kept us out of war”. Upon election voila. Looks like a familiar tactic of the Democrats during the 20th century.
    A lot led up to the sinking of the Luisitania and is still argued today.

    • Mushroom clouds and daises come to mind.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        As I’ve posted before, I know one of the creators of that ad during that campaign. He still is very proud of it. He and I have gone around and around on it and the out and out lies Johnson spewed…..his retort was, Vietnam was Nixon’s war.

        • Dale A Albrecht says:

          I also specifically remember the USS Stark being hit by two Iraqi exocet anti-ship missiles. The ship was in the Gulf doing escort duty for the re-flagged tankers during the Iran/Iraq war. I will say that the direction that the missles came in from they would have not been able to bring the gun to bear (useless anyway against an exocet) because it is aft of the bridge and in a blind spot. The same goes for the last defense measure of the Phalanx system. They would have had to turn the ship to bring any defense systems to bear. That said, the MSM was not allowed on the ships during the escort mission and they were hiring helicopters and planes to shadow the ships. The Navy ordered the Phalanx systems to be in the standby mode or OFF so Dan Rather wouldn’t get shot down. So regardless the ship was neutered and defanged. The plane was id’d as Iraqi but at that time Iraq and the US were NOT belligerents, Iran was the enemy. So the crew discounted the possible threat. This was also during the time that the US was selling weapons to IRAN and they neglected to inform the commands in harms way. The recommendation to court martial the commander for dereliction of duty was dropped but the reprimand was enough to force retirement……after the original id as Iraqi (friendly), it was to late to do anything once the incoming missiles were detected..

          I do not know of any other countermeasures that would have possibly prevented the ship being hit except the Phalanx. Chaff wouldn’t work, the missile homed in on the electronic emissions from the CIC which was unshielded, above the main deck and only 1/4 inch of aluminum bulkheads. They were very lucky and a testament to the firefighting training received that the ship was saved, unlike the British ships lost to the same type of missiles during the Falkland war..

  9. Dale A Albrecht says:

    On September 26, 1983, “the National Security Agency (NSA) intercepted an Iranian diplomatic communications message from the Iranian intelligence agency, the Ministry of Information and Security (MOIS),” to its ambassador, Ali Akbar Mohtashemi, in Damascus. The message directed the ambassador to “take spectacular action against the American Marines.”[31] The intercepted message, dated September 26, would not be passed to the Marines until October 26: three days after the bombing.[32]

    This is concerning the Marine Corps barracks bombing in Beruit. Even the US embassy bombing took place earlier killing a lot of people and all the Marines had up as a protective barrier was concertina wire.

    The Iranians erected a monument in 2004 to the Islamic Jihadists that carried out the attacks.

    Lost some friends in that attack.

  10. Dale A Albrecht says:

    How can anyone be a climate change denier? We’ve gone from 27 degrees F to pouring rain with a 40 degree rise in temperature. FYI that is seasonal norms around here.

  11. Just A Citizen says:

    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Some think it doesn’t even matter if we do learn. We are doomed by our nature to keep repeating the same stupid mistakes. In the context of this discussion that involves China, Japan and the USA. All over again. Only this time China is the one not paying attention. From over a year ago:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/04/seven_reasons_china_will_star_a_war_by_2017.html

  12. Just A Citizen says:

    Doesn’t bode well for an new Administration claiming a desire to withdraw from Global military operations.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/12/12/1570000000000-much-world-spent-arms-year/

    Of course a big chunk of that trillion plus is ours.

    Wonder what a world would look like if the major powers STOPPED making and selling armaments to the rest of the world?

    • They would go back to stone axes and clubs. Some places, it NEVER ends.

      NATO in Kosovo

      While Afghanistan remains NATO’s primary operational theatre, the Alliance has not faltered on its other commitments, particularly in the Balkans. Today, approximately 4,500 Allied troops operate in Kosovo as part of NATO’s Kosovo Force (KFOR).

      Having first entered Kosovo in June 1999 to end widespread violence and halt the humanitarian disaster, KFOR troops continue to maintain a strong presence throughout the territory.

      Following Kosovo’s declaration of independence in February 2008, NATO agreed it would continue to maintain its presence on the basis of UN Security Council Resolution 1244. It has since helped to create a professional and multi-ethnic Kosovo Security Force, which is a lightly armed force responsible for security tasks that are not appropriate for the police. Meanwhile, progress has been achieved in the European Union-sponsored dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina. The normalisation of relations between Serbia and Kosovo is key to solving the political deadlock over northern Kosovo.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        Stephen…..like Europe is so proud of their “gun crime” record. Except that most criminals know that people are disarmed and they do not need a gun…..a knife or just plain fists and the boot suffices. The underlying crime is still there.

  13. For JAC. Maybe your gal can ease your tension

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      There wasn’t any hesitation, no um’s and ah’s. Unlike Hillary most of the time unless it was a canned speech she had done over and over..

  14. Reading at some Left Wing rags, the Russian issue is BIG news with them. It’s just more needle searching because they can’t accept that HRC lost. Let’s see:

    It’s Comey’s fault, that failed
    It’s “Fake news” fault, that failed
    It’s Russia’s fault, this will fail as well.

    The question is….what excuse is next?

    I will guess that they will claim Trump is a double agent. They may as well go full tin foil hat wearing fools.

  15. Dale A Albrecht says:

    At least the Federal judge came down on the side of PA and disallowed a recount. No standing, Pretty much the same as the judge finally did in Michigan. Steins actions were purely obstruction to a clean transfer of government. So far the Wisconsin vote has only changed by 25 votes.

    What I like also is that the Dems constantly were pressuring for States to go to computer voting alleging it was safer against fraud up until the election. Yet they’re screaming the electronic voting was hacked and caused their candidate to lose. Go figure.

    As for McCrory challenging his close loss in NC as governor made some sense. It was close, OK, The State went big for Trump, OK, We returned Burr to the Senate OK, the State legislature was now very Republican heavy and could override any governor veto. Bottom line who was governor is moot. The Voter id law will be resubmitted and will pass again, it will be veto’d by the new gov but will be overriden. The Federal DOJ will not sue this time. Same with the bathroom bill. The former State AG is now governor elect but will lose on veto.

  16. Dale A Albrecht says:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-roots-of-the-democratic-debacle_us_584ec983e4b04c8e2bb0a779?ref=yfp

    Just a small snippet

    “Taking his cues from Wall Street, Obama advocated a policy notably friendly to the nation’s deeply unpopular major financial institutions: a gigantic taxpayer-funded bailout and a decision not to prosecute a single Wall Street executive for any transgressions committed in the lead-up to the crisis. At the same time, the Obama administration did little for the many millions of people who lost their homes and pensions as a result of the crash. In response, growing public outrage at the gentle treatment of Wall Street and the conspicuous lack of assistance offered to its victims, coupled with the rise of the Tea Party and the emergence of fierce opposition to the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), the Democrats suffered a massive defeat in the mid-term elections, losing 64 seats in the House of Representatives and 10 seats in the Senate.”

    The article was not at all complimentary to HRC and her campaign

  17. Dale A Albrecht says:

    http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/state-dept-350k-group-built-campaign-structure-used-against-election-israels?ref=yfp#.

    The video story is actually over 1.5 years ago, but the print commentary is covers also inbetween then and now.

    With Obama and the dems harping on the Russians possibly influencing our elections and the State depart grants a group that built its structure with tax funds then used that infrastructure to undermine Israels election against Netenyahu…..and then what about Ukraine.

  18. The Cold Warriors, formerly known as “Peacenicks” are having a blast.

  19. http://gatetoliberty.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-establishments-deadly-last-stand.html

    This kind of goes with JAC’s article above concerning war with China.

  20. UPDATE:

    But many in the town aren’t having it.

    “Just because one person’s offended, doesn’t mean they have to take away one particular thing,” resident Cynthia Sturgill told Fox59.

    Sturgill added: “To me it’s not a religious display. It’s not all about just Christianity. It’s about memorial, loss of family, loved ones, the veterans. The Jefferson Memorial has tons of crosses, millions of crosses for veterans.”

    Now townsfolk are making it clear they side with the cross, with one resident even creating hundreds of wooden crosses to give out for free.

    “To declare their support for the tree topper, hundreds of people in Knightstown have put crosses up in their yards, stores, windows and even cars,” reports Fox59.

    “I hope they make people realize that we should speak up for what we believe in and stand up for it and not be pushed around,” says Patricia Hutson, the woman who created the free crosses.

    Residents are aware if the town loses the case they will have to remove the cross, but they’re hoping their solidarity will encourage Tompkins to drop the lawsuit.
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/town-fights-back-after-aclu-lawsuit-challenges-christmas-tree-topper.html

    How exactly is the town “establishing” a religion?
    Do these idiots realize the Bill of Rights is to limit the Federal Government?
    Maybe the townspeople can sue to “intentional infliction of emotional distress”, now that would be funny.

  21. Dad mustered into the Army in Nov. 1940. He was well aware of Japan’s penchant for surprise attacks; he had read Jack London. He requested the Aleutians as his first duty station with a backup of Hawaii. When the recruiting Sgt asked why there, he said so he could be there on day one. For in IL farm boy to know this, it had to be common knowledge that war was imminent in the Pacific. How much he learned from Uncle Ray, I do not know. Ray had been in the Navy for at least 2 years and was on the USS West Virginia. Certainly, every letter Ray sent home would have been passed around, such were tight families and small towns back then.

    Again for a farm boy to know and anticipate this, there is no reason to believe that the brass and politicians also were aware of these facts.

    In the late ’20s or early ’30s, Billy Mitchell simulated an air raid on Pearl. He ferried crated biplanes to one of the remote islands NW of Oahu, build a small strip, assembled the planes and flew a simulated bombing mission on Pearl. This was in the pre-carrier days. So once again the brass should have known it could be done. The Japanese I am sure knew about this simulation since they followed Mitchell’s flight line to Pearl.

    Gen. Short was old school infantry and did not have much use for the flyboys. He was more concerned about invasion and defending the beaches than fending off an aerial assault. One of the books I read said he ordered the Air Corps to train as infantry. Dad never mentioned any of this. I suspect the Air Corps brass shielded as many of the flyboys from this duty as possible. Also note that the flyboys did not qualify as marksmen with a rifle. After all it was the army and they needed snipers. Instead, they shot the corners off the targets.

    I also remember reading that Adm Kimmel had sortied some ships out for recon especially in the NW passage. This was about one week before the attack. He was ordered by Washington to bring the ships back into port. They knew the ships were sitting ducks but they also counted on the bay to be too shallow for aerial torpedoes.

    Up until Dec. 5, at Wheeler, they were ready for an attack. They kept a couple of planes aloft and the rest were armed and distributed on the field or in netted bunkers. They brought the planes up to the hangers on Dec. 5th for an inspection that did not occur. Nothing was said about sabotage.

    Even the Honolulu paper predicted an attack somewhere in the Pacific for the weekend of Dec. 7. Why then was their guard let down? I get that it was paradise, plus a Sunday morning and for many at Wheeler the morning after the first time in a month they could hit the bars. No one wanted to disturb the brass early on Sunday morning when the USS Ward and the radar installation sounded the alarms. The radar folks were new and had reported false alarms already so that is partly why their alarm was discounted.

    As for FDR setting the table for the attack, I believe he did. You would have to study the psychology of the Japanese to understand their reaction. They were belligerent. Any maneuver that thwarted their conquests in Asia would be taken as hostile. Today we would consider them just more diplomatic pressure. FDR offered up the Pacific fleet by placing it within striking distance. He then kept important information from Short and Kimmel. MacArthur was better informed and should have been court martial-ed for letting his air force be caught on the ground.

    I do not think that FDR expected the level of destruction to be so high. This is where the complacency in Hawaii comes to play. But at the same time, there was no clear warning from Washington about the true level of danger. Had the commanders known all the pertinent information, they might have been more prepared. The war would still have started, Japan still would have made the first overt move, but the loss of ships and men would have been much less.

    Dad claimed that by night fall of the 11th, no army or air force could have taken the islands. At night fall on the 7th, they had 4 flyable planes at Wheeler. The numbers were much greater by the 11th including a P36 with P40 wings and tail that Dad stitched together.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      TRay

      What information are you claiming that FDR did not share with his commanders?

      • I would have to read Stinnet’s book again for the exact details. His book is well documented with copies of many original messages. If Stinnet is correct, then we knew the Japanese fleet was heading for Hawaii. There was a concerted effort to keep MacArthur informed but to leave Short and Kimmel out of the loop. Kimmel did complain about it. Hawaii was dominated by the Navy. The Army and the Air Corps were secondary.

        More information can be found here:
        http://www.afhso.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-100917-040.pdf

        • I read Stinnets book……yes, it is full of details. But very carefully arranged details with some left out. I have written many AAR’s…you can make it sound like you want and commanders can draw whatever conclusions they want.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      Regarding not wanting to disturb the Commanders….sounds like the generals not wanting to wake up Hitler when the landing at Normandy had begun. The attack didn’t occur by the allies according to the Wehrmacht’s plans and assumptions. And that was in the middle of the war.

      All the assumptions and theories and facts do incline to point to a set up. But I also believe the high commands assumptions was that the major attacks would go southward towards PI etc. They also assumed the Japanese did not have the assets to do both. Well they did do both. All they had to do was “freeze” the fleet in place at Pearl, while they then could turn that fleet back to asia and complete the started invasions of the rest of indochina, New Guinea, Australia etc. MacArthur could in no way support Pearl, but the reverse was true, Pearl was to support any thrust further into SE Asia.

      Some of the errors the japanese made was not to take out repair facilities, dry docks, fuel storage. Within a short period…many “destroyed” capital ships were refloated and repaired, or on their way back to the coast for more complete repairs and upgrades. The US was still able to fully support the war effort from Pearl instead of backing up an additional 3000 miles.

      Even though MacArthur was caught flatfooted, he still would have lost with the forces at hand. However, the delaying actions and the stand at corrigador, was a propaganda coup, plus it sucked more Japanese resources than they probably did not plan on using for the conquest of PI, throwing everything off schedule, giving time to reorganize…Coral Sea was just a few months into 1942 and the Japanese southern thrust was halted. With Midway weeks after that, the Japanese were backing up with rare exception from then on.

  22. Just A Citizen says:

    A little trip down memory lane.

    You know how to tell when Congress is just posturing for political gain? Nothing happens and the issue simply goes away on its own.

    OMG, $2.38/gallon. I wonder why we haven’t had more hearing on the profiteers these past few years? Could it be that they finally figured out who to pay in the Govt. to keep the hounds at bay?

    • Maybe OPEC and their agreement to lower production recently and the OUTGOING President might mean something. Or maybe because Trump will open our own well and put an end to foreign oil dependence. What I do remember is that the price of gas would follow the price of oil, rise or fall, 6 months after the price change…..today, it’s a day or two.

  23. Congress found that more than one in 10 adults experiencing homelessness nationally was a veteran, breaking down as 47,725 (11 percent) of the nation’s 436,921 homeless adults. While we currently have 31,505 homeless veterans, at least 17,000 were unsheltered and lived on the street.

    Working as a team, Obama and Hillary have resettled more than 13,000 undocumented Syrian refugees since 2015 while giving them apartments, food stamps, benefits, and healthcare.

    Does this represent a country you are proud of? Can’t we see that Democrats are the problem?

    In 2015, Senate Democrats blocked a bill to fund the VA. One month later, Hillary Clinton said the Veterans Affairs scandal is not as “widespread” of a problem as people say it is.

    When Donald Trump is sworn in on January 20, he has indicated that he will not only put a freeze on accepting Syrian refugees, but he has promised to transfer all of the funds remaining in Obama’s “Syrian refugee program” back over to the VA for our veterans.

    Trump indicates that he will use the hundreds of millions of dollars to get every veteran off the street and into a job instead of leaving them homeless and jobless like Obama and Hillary have done since 2008.

    Finally, we will have a Commander-in-Chief that will wake up every single day and fight for Americans!
    https://conservativedailypost.com/congress-releases-final-report-shows-obama-took-2-6b-from-vets-to-give-to-syrian-refugees/?utm_source=Email&utm_campaign=12_December&utm_medium=Aweber

  24. There is one major thing that is still being over looked in our discussions. The POTUS, FDR, does NOT instruct commanders how to deploy their assets. The Joint Chief’s of Staff do not tell the commanders how to deploy their assets.

    The commander on the ground has the SOLE……..the ONE AND ONLY…..final responsibility how to deploy assets for protection. Everyone must remember the line of thinking of the on ground commanders…they were World War One relics. World War One thinking. Their line of thinking was one of no vulnerability. No orders came from Washington to not patrol specific areas that I could find……I scoured all the communiques and read the transcripts of radio traffic and intelligence communiques that were available. I even procured some information from FOI.

    In writing my paper, I had a very hard time understanding why, with all the islands available for docking and airfields, was everything bungled in place. It made absolutely no military sense whatsoever. The thought of the Naval commander was that it was easier to patrol around one island and one harbor entrance….and the harbor entrance was shallow and narrow.

    What I did find in my research, was the archaic thinking of the Naval Commanders and their incessant penchant for 8 to 5 work, instead of 24/7….taking the weekends off, setting patterns of behaviour making it easy for Japanese agents to document weak and strong times. But the most disturbing discrepancy, in my opinion, was the reliance upon Washington for intelligence….the mistaken belief that Washington had the answers. Intelligence reports are tools to be used….like a rifle….for commanders to make assessments.

    In addition, I scoured the operational plans for the protection of the Hawaiian Islands. You can see the actual patrol routes, the distances, the type of equipment available, the fuel allotments, ammunition allotments, personnel assignments. This theory of not patrolling the Northwest does not hold water because there were plans for ship, submarine, and air patrols up to 250 miles from the Island of Oahu..in all directions. However, one thing that did stand out was…………..no 24/7 coverage at the same levels because of the weekends and the penchant to let people off duty Saturday and Sunday.

    The Army Air Force was indeed the stepchild of the time. Everything depended upon the Navy….allocation of fuel and supplies as well, since it was a naval base. However, the Navy was not in charge of the AAF nor was it in charge of the Army ground forces.

    My conclusion, political grand standing aside, was the the attack on Pearl Harbor could not have been avoided..the Japanese navy was on the way….But the result of the attack could have been avoided and the Japanese fleet destroyed or severely damaged. The Commanders on the ground….could have avoided this incident. I found NO orders…..not one….that prohibited the Commanders on site from patrolling in accordance with the Operational Plans for the Defense of the Hawaiian Islands in place at the time. In my paper, I placed the blame…..and I used the word blame….on the devastation of the Pacific fleet and the AAF directly at the feet of the military commanders and not the politicians. I found no orders from Washington nor the arm chair generals that said….put all your ships in line…bunch all of your aircraft on one field in neat rows. Admirals and General;s loved to do inspections and loved to walk down rows and rows of ships and planes all looking spiffy and nice…it gives a great sense of power.

    IT gave the Admiral’s great pride to stare out at the harbor and see rows of battleships and destroyers all in line with their guns bristling in the sunlight and they can say all is well. The mistake belief that the USA was invulnerable. The AAF general could climb to the top of his tower and look at the rows and rows of fighters and bombers ( outdated ones at that ) and say all is well.

    The bottom line is that commanders on the ground…..the boots…..are responsible for their safety. Not Washington, not the politicians, and not the POTUS. All land based fuel depots were full as well as all harbor fuel tanks. Tankers were anchored full of fuel. There was no shortage of logistics. Just stupidity of commanders that did not think it could happen. No interpretation by commanders of weeks and weeks of intelligence communications that should have…..SHOULD HAVE……been read as a prelude to POSSIBLE attack. Every commander understands that if there is a possibility of attack…you react as if it is imminent and disperse your forces accordingly. Every commander should, as a matter of practicality, seek their own intelligence.

    Now, go ahead and try to tear me apart.

    • No tearing apart needed Colonel. That’s a good assessment of the times. But I do have a few questions on one of your statements:

      But the most disturbing discrepancy, in my opinion, was the reliance upon Washington for intelligence….the mistaken belief that Washington had the answers. Intelligence reports are tools to be used….like a rifle….for commanders to make assessments.

      Who was in control of the intelligence agencies? Where were the leaders of these agencies? Could intelligent reports been kept from military commanders at the direction of, a high ranking politician or FDR? Is it possible that intelligent assessments were manipulated, much like those of ISIS under the Obama Administration?

      Obviously, many mistakes were made. Militarily speaking, your assessment is likely correct. But the questions being pondered aren’t about what the military did or didn’t do, it’s about what the civilian leadership did or didn’t do. Look at today’s nonsense about Russia and the election. All this BS while ignoring the fact that the US spent 5 billion to get the Ukraine government overthrown, billions more to do the same in Syria and simply bombing Libya into political chaos.

      I don’t believe our problems, past or present can be handed to the military folks. I have an issue with sociopath’s who are chosen for election, not by election. So, with that said, let’s look at FDR…..was he similar to today’s narcisstic sociopath politicians?

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      I can not fault your analysis….You have infinitely more military experience than I do, but I’ll bring in my direct experience about bundling versus dispersal.

      While I was in Sicily for two years during the 70’s it was a hazardous duty station because of the constant threat from “terrorism” From several different sources. The command wanted very few personnel living on base and we were DISPERSED. Wearing your uniform off base was strictly forbidden. It was in my job discription to insure that those under my command NEVER frequented a place so often that it became known as an American hangout. We got to wear our hair way beyond the military regs and allowed to be consistant with the local fashions. Even clothes. If one did not become bilingual or multi-lingual in short order if not already so, the command usually put pressure on to get you removed. Rarely was the mafia directed towards military personnel, but it was directed towards the local populous and businesses they wanted to take over. Drugs was not a big deal in the area, but in Palermo is was. The object was to keep your eyes and ears open and not naively become a statistic caught in a bombing or the crossfire which was frequent. We had politically driven attacks with missiles on the base. We had airliner shootdowns just offshore when Libyan fighters tried to come in under the shadow of the airliner. Point being it was basically a shooting and bombing rich environment. We had zero mass events against American and NATO personnel…….while it was very different in Germany…..They had the political terror threats for sure, mafia….not an issue, ME none…yet the soldiers were clumped. You’d constantly read about a bar getting blown up and 30-40 american soldiers or airmen getting killed or injured. It seemed that everyone did things as a company. The hair…high and tight. completely identifiable as an american. When I visited Germany, I never ran into a soldier who spoke German. The Germans hated the Americans. In Sicily most of the people would stop you and ask if you knew so and so, just because I was from NY. They wanted americans in the neighborhood. Nobody I could find in Germany lived off base. Nobody shopped for food off base. We in Sicily went the 180 degree opposite course. Different results. Once the Sicily forces went into the fortress mode after 9/11 the attitude of the people became just like the Germans.

    • Once again I need to rush off to work. Col., I do not disagree on many of your points on preparedness in HI. I have always described it as paradise. DC did not order the planes to be bunched up at Wheeler. This was the local commanders. Luckily some planes had been sent o Haleiwa although the official reason is often overlooked. Welch and Taylor were there for target practice because they constantly missed the sleeve during practice. Of course they were not shooting at the sleeve but at the tow rope. Dad had a story about this as well.
      Kimmel had the PBYs and fuel for a full search pattern but chose to limit the search to the SW. The Air Corps did not have long range search capacity but could have kept more planes in the air. A significant number of Air Corps planes were old and in disrepair hence not flyable. The Navy was supposed to coordinate searches with the Army but they did not leaving the Air Corps to their own plans.
      The Lt in the Signals Center that received the radar report was a fighter pilot who was there as a liaison. He was not a Signals Corps officer and did not know how to sound the alarm. No Signal Corps officer was present. His duty was to coordinate the Air Corps search planes once airborne.
      Like most major calamities, Pearl was the confluence of many foul ups. I just do not leave the politicians out of it.
      60 minutes warning would have made a world of difference.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      d13thecolonel

      While I agree with your assessment of failures by the Hawaiian command you overlook the failures of the Washington Command Staff. In particular General Marshal.

      The Army had sole responsibility for protection of the fleet and the Hawaiian Islands. First mistake was putting an infantry man in charge of this protection, which obviously required air support. Here is where I see your WWI mentality having an affect. But back to my point. Marshal was responsible for making sure the Army was working with the Navy, as was the Sec. of War, and that the Army command had clear orders and material required to carry out its mission. He was found grossly negligent in all these areas by more than one inquiry. Except of course the first one conducted by the Army which put all the blame in Hawaii.

      I agree on the issue of depending on D.C. Command and Civilian Staff for intelligence as well as “specific” orders. This shows a “culture” of command structure at the time which was not conducive to preparing for war or avoiding disaster at the outset. Far to many people involved in getting information from A to Z. This same “culture” existed in 2001 and contributed to the failures of 9/11.

      The gross example of this in Hawaii was the bunching of the planes. This was done because there was a three part plan in place with each step depending on the “intelligence” or “warning” provided by Washington. Step one was based on concern for “sabotage” only, and this was the Step executed just prior to Dec. 7th. Oddly, Step Two of the plan, which was in response to increased chance of attack used the same strategy. It was not until and actual attack was discovered or occurred that Step Three was to be implemented. Only under this Step were the planes to be dispersed and readiness time shortened.

      This “plan” was developed in concert with and approved by Washington Command. Marshal should have overridden this plan when he knew attack was imminent. The Army Commander in Hawaii should have unilaterally overturned the plan when he received the “war alert” message. Regardless of how “non specific” it was.

      My biggest finding after studying not only Pearl but our conduct of WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam is that our almost religious belief in the superiority of our military command’s brilliance is unjustified.

  25. Who was in control of the intelligence agencies? CIVILIANS….Where were the leaders of these agencies? IN WASHINGTON…. Could intelligent reports been kept from military commanders at the direction of, a high ranking politician or FDR? TO DO SO, WOULD HAVE REQUIRED REMOVAL OF MILITARY COMMANDERS FROM THE DISTRIBUTION LISTS…BUT COULD BE DONE. dOING SO, HOWEVER, IS A HUGE RED FLAG TO MILITARY COMMANDERS. Is it possible that intelligent assessments were manipulated, much like those of ISIS under the Obama Administration? OF COURSE.

    Militarily speaking, your assessment is likely correct. But the questions being pondered aren’t about what the military did or didn’t do, it’s about what the civilian leadership did or didn’t do. THIS IS ALSO CORRECT BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS…..IT COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED REGARDLESS OF THE SHENANIGANS OF THE CIVILIANS. BUT MUCH OF WHAT I HAVE BEEN READING IS FOCUSING ON THE ANNIHILATION OF THE FLEET AND AAF. THE OBJECTIVE GIVEN US IN WAR COLLEGE ON THE ATTACK AT PEARL, WAS, GIVEN THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE TIME, HOW COULD WAR AND/OR THE ATTACK BEEN AVOIDED. IN MY CONCLUSION, WAR IN THE PACIFIC COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED….IF THE ATTACK ON PEARL HAD A DIFFERENT OUT COME, ISLAND HOPPIN THE PACIFIC AND THE DROPPING OF ATOMIC WEAPONRY COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED BY SIMPLE PLANNING.

    So, with that said, let’s look at FDR…..was he similar to today’s narcisstic sociopath politicians? YES..

    • I enjoyed reading your comment on your paper and what you concluded. it’s always great to see things from a different set of eyes. If the Japanese could have been stopped at Pearl, the war would have been much different, no doubt about that. But Japan wasn’t the only problem, there was Germany and Italy as well. Which sends me back to FDR and the need for public support to enter the war. Funny how the military could avoid wars far better than the idiots that get presented for election.

      I’ll pick this up a little later, off to visit Mother 🙂

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      sir……it was still all our fault. Matthew Perry and the US forcing Japan to open up its country and modernize and throw off it’s feudal system….(sarc)

  26. Dale A Albrecht says:

    The dems will not quit. I admire their not liking their defeat….but they are blaming the wrong cause of the defeat. Themselves and their flawed arrogant candidate. When you literally insult and demean 1/2 the population what are you going to expect. When the people you insulted have lost 10-20% of their earning power in the past 8 years. by job loss what do you expect.

    Do all women aspire to be in the heartless corporate workplace….no, some do but the demeaning the Dems and feminists heap on those that don’t. To what end, kids are neglected and raised by somebody else. There is literally no financial gain, because the daycare sucks it up…..during the last several years at at&t most women wound up resigning….why you ask. Most were young and had very young children or were having them. They tried working, but their work schedules and careers kept getting in the way with the kids. The schools or daycare when the child got sick would call and say, come and pick them up. Meetings run long, and they’d call the school and ask for the teacher to stay beyond the time that they want to go home to look after someone elses kid…it generally failed in time……you were not supposed to be caring for your kids at home if you were supposed to be working.,,,,the conflict of interest….choose, one or the other,

    The dems lost the election by themselves. Not even visiting Wisconsin once during the election, then complaining about the outcome, little effort in all the other lost states. They had certain states in the bag so those you ignore. When she came just a couple times to NC, it was in the western end towards Charlotte which has been a dem controled area. The Raleigh, Durham Chapel Hill area though very liberal it is always up for grabs in any election, local, state or national. Eastern Carolina is sparse in population and at a local and state level the politics vary…at the national level…..very republican due to the military influence…..but then HRC only came twice I believe…..what was she doing? Insulting people that can and did vote.

    Regardless of who the RNC put up HRC was never going to get my vote and that was not a recent revelation by any wikileaks but decisions made back in the 90’s on her behavior. I actually possibly would have voted for Bill if he was on the ballot as long as Hillary could have been divorced and banned from the WH and any position from the government. He was far more pragmatic as opposed to dogmatic.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      added comment….and those that did get a 4 year degree are overladen with debt, getting jobs, maybe but are way under what they expect….note…even Google says about potential new hire programmers…they do not have the skills to do the job required. you may be able to program like hell, but you need experience in understanding the contract and the customer. Most have zero experience. Like a company I know and work with trying to rectify the absolute disastrous programs they created to support State governments. The company targeted States but the contracts were impossible to manage and many totally collapsed. The programmers totally did not understand government and all it intricate ties within itself and outside of the State like with federal agencies. Absolutely no comprehension, plus ignorant of the laws usually including labor and union laws.

      Maybe it’s time to get back in the workplace for a few years….hearing and reading more about new college hires are not cutting it.

  27. Dale A Albrecht says:

    Here’s a 64,000 dollar question…..did colonialism actually bring stability to some areas or make world matters worse? Not only for the world but the local population as well. After the end of colonialism (sarc) in the ’60’s, these countries now became pawns in the bigger game of world domination by the superpowers.

    The question comes with a headline about the refugee problem in Uganda from thousands pouring across the border from Sudan. Obviously what actions the UN is taking there now for decades is not resolving the problem one iota. Somolia another basket case. Nigeria, former Rhodesia, Liberia, just to name a few.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Dale

      Alas, it was colonialism which led to WWII in affect. Japan, for example, felt justified in taking territory for its own because the other great powers had done the same. So who were we to tell them otherwise.

      So my judgement is that colonialism is largely responsible for all the BAD in the world today. It may have stabilized certain areas at certain times, but it led to animosities and hatred which we are still living with to this day.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Dale

      P.S. Colonialism also led to the creation of the United States. A good thing from my perspective. But a bad thing from that of my cousins living on reservations to this day.

  28. Just A Citizen says:

    To those who blame FDR for goading Japan into war let me point out that the alternative was to do what Obama did with Iran and Russia in our time.

    Those who criticize Obama and others for abandoning our allies cannot criticize FDR for standing with our allies in the South Pacific, or trying to protect our then territories in the region.

  29. Just A Citizen says:

    My blood pressure just spiked:

    https://news.grabien.com/story.php?id=1879

    Remember my comments of a few days ago about people hearing what they want from their favored politician? Well read Obama’s comments carefully. Tell me if you see an actual coherent argument made to focus on a single and compatible issue or premise.

    • Since I was the target of the original comments (Trump supporters), I’ll take a stab at this.
      He’s saying that he can talk us into anything, since we’re basically good people. Racism exists because he says so.

      Are you comparing Obama’s “I can talk you into anything” (social justice), to Trump’s “I can talk you into anything (economically)?

      • Funny thing about politicians like Obama, they know how to play the game because the rules favor them. Look how many Liberal minions believe this Russian bullshit? Look how the MSM is playing their role…..the government’s propaganda mouthpiece, which is all legal. After the 2014 Midterms, it should have been clear that the Republicans are no better than the Democrats…..both are liars. With Trump there is something different, so let’s just wait and see how he does. If he fails, everyone fails with him.

        • Dale A Albrecht says:

          I think he will be battling Congress and it will be from both sides of the aisle. Trump plans on breaking rice bowls and it does not matter whose they are. Guys like Rubio, McConnell and Ryan are just as imbedded in the establishment as ticks on a dog.

  30. Just A Citizen says:

    Thought of the day.

    Division of labor has brought great prosperity to the human race.

    It also made large scale warfare possible.

    Thus it has been both the bane and boom of civilization.

  31. In an interview with The Daily Show, Obama also hit out at president elect Trump over the latter’s assertion that he does not need daily in depth intelligence briefings with the same content. Obama accused Trump of “flying blind” despite the fact that Obama himself willingly ignored intelligence briefings on the threat of ISIS, and even referred to the terrorist group as the Jayvee squad.

    “Part of what we have done is, to just hammer away at the basic principle that intelligence shall not be subject to political spin,” Obama said.

    He added, “I’m very proud of the fact that, over the course of eight years, the message I’ve sent to every intelligence agency is, I want it straight, without spin, and I think we’ve developed a culture that does that.”

    Except that is the exact opposite of the views of over 50 CENTCOM intelligence operatives who say they were given “implied orders” not to report facts on the ground in Iraq regarding terrorist activity. Instead, they were encouraged to substitute economic or environmental information for terror related intelligence.

    The reason was that the Obama administration wanted to downplay the rise of ISIS for its own political ends. At the time the US was aiding so called ‘moderate’ rebels in Syria in an effort to topple the Assad regime, and thereby destabilize a Middle Eastern ally of Vladimir Putin.

    A congressional joint task force corroborated the CENTCOM employees’ claims in August.

    “What happened at CENTCOM is unacceptable — our warfighters suffer when bad analysis is presented to senior policymakers,” Rep. Ken Calvert said. “We must continue our efforts until we fix it.”

    Rep. Mike Pompeo (Kan.) told CBS News “there’s enormous evidence about how this information from talented career professionals inside the analytic arm at CENTCOM did their job and accurately depicted what was going on on the ground, but when it got to very senior levels, that information was changed.”

    Additionally, former DIA head Michael Flynn revealed that Obama routinely turned a deaf ear to updates and reports on the rise of ISIS because they didn’t fit with the narrative the administration was feeding the American public.

    This source is proving to be much more reliable than ANY of the MSM: http://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-who-ignored-isis-intel-for-years-hits-trump-for-flying-blind-on-intel.html

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      Obama was and continues to believe in his own delusions. Facts mean nothing to him.

      Like going back to JAC’s and Anita’s comments on Obama……well Obama was not able to convince the majority of the American public about the benefit of Obamacare. Even when he lied through his teeth. When the CBO scores the costs of a program, they willingly acknowledge that the cost estimate is manipulated by the information Congress gives them, not by their own financial analysis. So obama lectures the Republicans that they must pursuade the people, where he himself could not.

      I’ve run into all together to many times in my career that analysts made reports that they modified to fit the message the customer ie executives wanted to hear. That practice always failed in the end….because then the problem being masked was never fixed and only got worse. Besides…..the end of the cycle was actually the customer, like VISA or Chicagomerc or BMW or Lufthansa who actually paid the bills. They’d see the same data. When they called their customer executive about a problem and that executives say….what?. I never modified information that was correct and actually arguable and liable to end up in a court of law. If an executive insisted that they did NOT want to have to explain the reasons for their mess that they did not manage correctly….I deleted my name off of every report….and then gave them the raw data to do with as they wished….but then on the “last modified by” and what fields were changed was their id not mine. Plenty of executives got fired. The data gatherers have got to stand their ground just from the sheer ethics and being able to sleep at night. The WH can not fire and lock up everybody

      Well Obama’s congress got fired and his successor did also. Just because people may not be colleged educated does not mean your stupid as they imply. Actually the reverse is probably more true. The more programmed you become in college today and less practical you become. Graduating from the College of Hard Knocks was more valuable; to me….lots of technical schools and special classes though and ultimately and equivalancy of a Masters in Statistics,

  32. Longshot plans in Colorado and elsewhere to deny Donald Trump the presidency through the Electoral College were dealt a severe setback on Monday after a federal judge refused to suspend a law requiring electors to vote for the presidential candidate who won the state in November.

    U.S. District Judge Wiley Daniel denied a request by two Colorado electors who contended that the law binding their vote to Colorado vote winner Hillary Clinton violated their First Amendment rights and the intents of the Constitution’s framers, reported The Associated Press. The electors had sought the right to vote for someone other than Clinton in order to unite behind a consensus Republican other than Trump when the Electoral College convenes on Dec. 19.

    http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/donald-trump-elector-revolts/2016/12/13/id/763605/?ns_mail_uid=25364429&ns_mail_job=1699773_12132016&s=al&dkt_nbr=jaeinfcs

    Jerad Sutton, an elector who is not one of the plaintiffs but also wants to vote for someone other than Clinton if it will block a Trump presidency, said he was disappointed with Monday’s result. “If people vote for president, Hillary Clinton would be president,” Sutton said, noting the Democrat won the popular vote. “If you believe this Electoral College exists, those are the people who choose the president.”

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      These electors that are saying the electoral college should go and the presidency should be popular vote only…fail to look at the make up of Congress….that is popular vote all the way by State and is pretty damn close to how the electoral votes broke in the election. Just because CA is the most populous State and drove most of the 2+million votes to HRC that does not give them the right to rule the country. We are 50 States…..If each states electors voted prportionately by the popular vote in each state Trump would still win. All 55 of CA votes would not have gone to HRC, nor all of NY’s on down the line. We are a Republic made up of 50 States who are losing their soveriegnty daily, not a democracy made up of 3-4 of the most populous States.

      CA should honestly audit their votes. My bet the voter fraud would make Cook County and Detroit look like amateurs

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      So here are electors from Colorado who are bound by State law to vote for Hillary as a winner take all, and they were voting for HRC anyway but they were trying to get a ruling on the books so other electors elsewhere could break with their States law to block Trump …Talk about grasping at straws.

  33. Thoughts on the FDR discussion. Without sufficient evidence, there is no way in hell to claim that FDR held back info or otherwise had knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t either. If we were to take the many actions of players throughout the years, President’s, Intelligence agencies, the pentagon etc, plus adding the seemingly consistent understanding that these people who are elected are narcisstic sociopaths, it’s not a stretch to think that FDR helped garner the support of the American people to enter WWII by ensuring the complacency of the field commanders and those under their charge. But still, it’s shear speculation.

    From one sneak attack to the next, anyone want to discuss government’s involvement in 911? I think we could paint quite a compelling picture about that event! 😀

  34. UPDATE:

    All it took was one man’s complaint, and a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and a town was forced to remove a lit-up cross from the top of its Christmas tree.

    Instead of fighting a costly lawsuit, the town council decided on Monday to go ahead and remove the symbol that offended lone Knightstown, Indiana resident Joseph Tompkins who alleged the cross violated the First Amendment and caused him “irreparable harm,” Fox News Insider reports,

    The rest of the town, on the other hand, were outraged by the council’s decision and have since plastered the town with wooden crosses.

    (The Town council folks may have lost the next election.)

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      This guy must be a basket case…evn if it was not on city property, every church has a cross. every Mosque has a cresent, every synagogue has a Star of David. to have just one cross on a public place to cause such irreparable harm to his well being…must be awful….usually sanity hearings take a little longer, with independently court appointed psyhcologists observing the patient over time…..Cowards….the board has seen their last days.

  35. All us quiet on the western front.

    • Word going around Liberal rags is that the Governors of the 3 West Coast states will continue the fight on Climate Change, despite Trump. Sadly, not much has been said about the Fukushima nuclear disaster……a real problem. My guess is that real problems can’t lead to more taxes, so why bother 😀

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        The question I have is why are NONE of the climate change advocates jumping up and down about China? I guess for social justice and catch up they are granted dispensation to pollute worse than the 50’s and 60’s. What I don’t understand is why did the companies that moved manufacturing there at least start out at a decent level of pollutants. At least even if they didn’t move forward, they didn’t go back 4 decades. The Climate change folks go on and on about how the west must bring the 3rd world up, so why has china been wink wink nod nod at by the advocates…..oh I forgot, all the communists and socialist after the general collapse in ’91 went into the green party.

        • Just A Citizen says:

          Dale

          They have been. The efforts to stop coal in the west is about cutting off China from those supplies.

          But also remember that the Green agenda calls for us declining in our standard while allowing some increase in the lower income areas. The socialist dream of making us all the same.

          • Dale A Albrecht says:

            With wind not working to well in Europe and having dismantled many of their nuclear plants, aren’t they buying a lot of our coal which is better than the brown coal generally found in Europe

            JAC….my point is that coal can be burned quite cleanly as had been shown in PA and other places. Just centralize it and make electricity, and scrub the emissions. China appears to not have even started at our levels. but back in the old days.

  36. http://www.freedomsback.com/michelle-malkin/a-new-victim-in-the-war-on-small-biz-bakeries/

    Talk about cause for a lawsuit, this bakery should OWN the college.

  37. New York City is offering its municipal workforce counseling services and other support for dealing with election-year stress brought on by Donald Trump’s election.

    In a Dec. 1 email, the de Blasio administration pointed to mental health resources that are available to workers who are “feeling distressed or vulnerable following the election results.”

    “We have seen the concerns expressed on social media and we are monitoring them closely,” the emails reads.

    The half-dozen agencies involved include the Mayor’s Office of Immigrant Affairs, the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and the Department of Education, as well as Deputy Mayor for Strategic Policies Richard Buery, who is overseeing the city’s mental health initiative known as Thrive NYC.

    Since the election, Mayor de Blasio has been reassuring New Yorkers that his administration will work to protect them from potentially harmful polices that have been proposed by Trump over the past year — particularly on immigration.

    http://nypost.com/2016/12/12/city-offering-workers-therapy-to-cope-with-trump-induced-stress/

  38. Some thoughts about the current Liberal propaganda being put out.

    The current claims are that the DNC, Podesta etc were hacks that were then released to Wikileaks.
    They are now even planting the idea that a Clinton staffer used the wrong word when replying to a question on a phishing scam email. This is where things get to the point of calling bullshit.
    The DNC email release by Wikileaks was said to be a leak, not a hack. People forget too easily.
    The Podesta email’s are also said to be a leak in many places. The Democrats don’t want this embarrassment, hence the BS Russian hack story.
    One really big thing from all of this……NOBODY is denying the authenticity of the emails or what they exposed.
    If it was a Russian hack job, which isn’t very likely, then SO WHAT? The damn NSA is spying on us all and we know this (thanks to Snowden). It would not be a stretch to think that the NSA did the actual leaking, to expose HRC’s corruption.
    It would also not be a stretch to see many people in the NSA as Patriots.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Intelligence agencies have no business commenting on or releasing any information. PERIOD.

      That they have obfuscated various responses to their spying on citizens, issued various theories of other nation involvement and the influence on the pres. race proves that the agencies are no longer non partisan and objective.

      And GMan, the wrong key stroke is real. It is probably how the Russian hackers got the data. They did not have to actually hack Podesta, he unwittingly handed the information to them. Phishing is still a form of hacking in my book. If not it is certainly THEFT.

      • I remember the phishing story when it came out. It is quite possible that they were stupid enough to fall for it. I get an occasional phishing email myself from time to time, it’s quite easy to verify it it’s integrity. For the record, I have NEVER been asked via email to change my password by any of my email sites, EVER. Yahoo has been suggesting it on their site when you become logged in, but I don’t use their email, I use it for fantasy football. That suggestion never came via email with a link. One has to be f-ing stupid to fall for such stuff, when the knowledge of these things are so widespread.

        But once again, who hacked/leaked don’t matter, what was exposed mattered, or the hack/leak wouldn’t even be discussed. Putting stuff on email always takes a chance it can get stolen. Don’t put stuff that can harm you on the internet and you don’t have to worry about getting hacked and ruined. Us Vets call that PERSEC (personal security).

        AS far as the THEFT part. In most cases I could agree that it is theft. In cases of exposing government corruption, rigging elections etc, it’s a public service.

        • Just A Citizen says:

          gman

          I get about a message a week that I know is phishing. They are the same two.

          One from Microsoft and the other Google. Both claiming some immediate need to update or fix something in my account or computer. Both utilize the company logos. But they are FAKE.

          Neither company sends messages telling users to update files, change passwords, etc. I did fall for the Microsoft one the very first time. Because they had hijacked the logo and it looked real.

      • JAC,

        Please tell me you don’t believe the ‘Russian Hackers’ propaganda.
        If anyone did any hacking we should look at DHS.

        • Just A Citizen says:

          Rick

          I think it very possible the Russians were involved in some of this. There is a security firm hired by the DNC after the first hack was discovered that later caught the hackers and watched them in real time. The Security Company owner said the hackers they discovered were linked to Russian Govt. agencies from prior experience. They have tracked them before.

          Now is it possible that the hacker hid their true identity before and again with the DNC, creating the appearance of being Russian? Possible. But the Security guy was pretty sure he knew.

          BUT……… this was relative to the DNC hack. Not the Podesta email which were leaked by Wikileaks in the closing months of the race. This info. was stolen during a phishing attempt by someone. Who that someone is has yet to be determined. But Podesta himself let them into his email account. They then took everything.

          This is probably why Wikileaks maintains no Russian involvement. Because Podesta’s email was probably stolen by criminals and then they forwarded to Wikileaks. On the other hand, how does Wiki know for sure who took the info and who then forwarded it? If one can fool our Govt. then they could fool Asange.

          Do I think the Russians and Chinese among many others are trying to hack into our systems? Yes. Daily. I would not be shocked if one of them has all of Clinton’s emails. We may never know for sure, unless they are released and the culprit admits their crime.

          This is one reason our intell. agencies should keep their mouths shut. Because we are doing the same thing. Crying foul over Russia and then getting caught doing the same later will make us look like hypocritical fools.

          With the exception of the Company owner claiming they caught the Russians “twice” hacking into the DNC computer I have seen zero evidence confirming any of the various theories as to “who done it”. So at this point anything is possible. The true answer may be a combination of “all the above”.

    • Somebody was trying to cover up to begin with. Remember Stone Tear, Paul Combetta looking for help on Redditt to remove names from email headers after being subpeona’d and before turning emails over to FBI.

      Then the FBI stumbled across Weiner’s emails from a laptop in his home.

      I throw the flag on the Russian story.

      • The Russian theory is bullshit. They have ZERO actual evidence of it. They are flailing their wings.

        If anything, it shows how incompetent Obozo’s cyber security program has been.

        • You are going to see the classic agitprop example, “tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”. After all, 16 years down the road, we all “know” that Bush stole the election, don’t we?

    • There is only one way to fix the NSA problem; Mass up, burn it to the ground and hang everyone there. …then go to the capitol and WH and do the same.

      It would also help if people would quit being stupid voter statists too.

      Do you feel represented when the NSA spies on you? They obviously care, right?

  39. I would like to pass on an idea of bi partisanship……Why not select Hillary Clinton as Ambassador to Libya and give her an office in Benghazi…If things don’t work out, well….at that point what difference does it make?

    Just sayin’

    • Just A Citizen says:

      Just sayin’ you caused me to spit my drink on the monitor. Damn funny my Texican friend.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      Good one….would get to clean up the mess she helped create…..maybe they could use “Foundation” funds to aid the now disfunctional country.

  40. Interesting discovery in Michigan…..electronic voting machines in over 200 precincts were…….tampered with in favor of Clinton……..and Trump still won the election. Hell, they cannot even cheat correctly.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      37% of the machines in Detroit recorded more ballots than actual registered voters. 95% for Clinton in Detroit.

      Why would a city that has been bought and paid for and run by the Dems for years and is a city that really should have had a sign posted “Gone out of Business”…..why are the people there so unwilling to say “geez this doesn’t seem to be working to well, why not pick the other guy….what have I got to lose?”

      • In NO way, shape or form is the following meant to be racist. The truth may be racially charged like the crime stats for black on black crime but they are nonetheless absolutely true!

        Fear of the unknown.

        “Massah is gonna take care of you. If dere be no massah, how ya gonna eat? Where ya gonna sleep?”

  41. I signed it……….the petition to name the next Navy ship USS Deplorable. You gotta love it.

  42. Just A Citizen says:
  43. @Anita

    Re; Laws to grope women.

    They already have them. It also includes groping men and children, elderly, etc.

    TSA gropes everyone, …because you never know when there may be a bomb hidden in a teen girl’s panties.

    Do you feel represented?

    • Legally speaking, the airlines could have handled all the security without the government and made it much worse. Don’t like it, don’t fly.

      • Do you fly?

        Have they groped you or your family yet?

        • NO…I can’t carry my sidearm.

          • Would you fly if you could carry your sidearm?

            Do you like being groped by strangers?

            • I fly commercial sometimes….when it is not feasible to fly myself…When I do fly, I leave from DFW airport. I have never been touched by a TSA agent at anytime….for anything. I have been wanded…I have been through the full body scan ( hands over your head ) and I have had to remove my shoes….but I have never been touched unless I flew out of country. However, even in Mexico, I have never been frisked.

              Let’s see…I have been to the following airports: DFW, HOuston International, Tampa INternational, New Orleans, Orlando, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Las Vegas, and Reno. The only inconvenience that I have ever experienced is long waiting lines at times.

              Even clearing customs coming into the United States, I have been wanded…but never touched at anytime.

              I might add, that I am carrying enough shrapnel in my legs to set off the normal settings at metal detectors and each time, I have only been wanded.

              I have never seen anybody touched or pulled out of line anywhere…..Now this apparently does not mean anything because the number of times I fly commercial is about twice per year.

  44. ?Most? voters apparently agree that God told George W. Bush to represent the people to tell the law makers to spend the people’s grandchildren on a generous donation to the major airlines, and to tell the Transportation Security Administration to fight international terrorism by touching children.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/9-11-airline-bailout-so-who-got-what/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/airport-security-pat-downs_b_1432606.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/parents-year-girl-pat-airport-procedures-changed/story?id=13363740

    How many children who were born between the late 90’s and early 2000’s, who are or will be reproducing soon, have grown up to understand getting groped and scanned as a normal accepted necessary part of travel (education, etc. too)?

    How many of them realize it is because god and their parents/grandparents told dubya to force it onto them?

    Do they realize that a percentage of their lives and progeny have been spent to finance it without their consent?

    Did Obama fix it?

    Will Trump?

    • I wonder if the young people feel represented.

      I don’t think that little girl crying feels represented. Terrified seems more accurate.

  45. If dubya and trump competed for the office of presiturd, dubya campaigning on groping everyone, trump campaigning on groping women, who would win?

  46. A Wikileaks envoy today claims he personally received Clinton campaign emails in Washington D.C. after they were leaked by ‘disgusted’ whisteblowers – and not hacked by Russia.

    Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan and a close associate of Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, told Dailymail.com that he flew to Washington, D.C. for a clandestine hand-off with one of the email sources in September.

    ‘Neither of [the leaks] came from the Russians,’ said Murray in an interview with Dailymail.com on Tuesday. ‘The source had legal access to the information. The documents came from inside leaks, not hacks.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4034038/Ex-British-ambassador-WikiLeaks-operative-claims-Russia-did-NOT-provide-Clinton-emails-handed-D-C-park-intermediary-disgusted-Democratic-insiders.html#ixzz4SuMAXvXR

    Heard about this a week ago. If true, which is as likely as a russian hack, then it’s the Brits who should be blamed….BWAHAHAHA!

    • Citing two senior officials with direct access to the information, NBC reports that “new intelligence shows that Putin personally directed how hacked material from Democrats was leaked and otherwise used. The intelligence came from diplomatic sources and spies working for U.S. allies, the officials said.”

      I saw this report by NBC last night. My first thought was that is was BS. Once again they use “high ranking sources” as they always call them, only to later find out it’s from a fake news story from some obscure liberal rag that nobody reads.

      There was supposed to be a hearing with one of the Congressional committees today, but I’m hearing that the intelligence community has no one to send. Well, isn’t that convenient.

      My belief. The Russian government had nothing to do with it. The Dem’s are just trying to delegitimize the election. Sad, sorry ass butthurt losers.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        The headlines on my home page carried this story……the operative word was “believe” not “know” It’s pure guessing and wishful thinking.

        Just the sheer disruption the runors have caused has got to be giving Putin a real belly laugh.

        My true feeling is that this is being so pushed by the DNC and the MSM, as a magician makes you look away from where the true slight of hand and trick is taking place……ie the voter fraud that was actually perpetrated by the Democratic controlled cities and States.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      On the subject of a Russian campaign to help Trump, King said: ‘There was nothing at all, ever told to us, in fact they said they couldn’t prove it, that there was an attempt to favor one candidate over the other. [James] Clapper, the director of national intelligence, said that publicly on Nov. 17.’

      This is from an associated article from the Dailymail. The CIA refusing to brief the intellignece committees because they are to busy handling Obamas request. It’s all a three card monty.

      If anyone is trying to re-ignite the “cold war” its’ us. Russia is just taking full advantage as we would of our international policies under Obama

  47. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    If god tells dubya to tell lawmakers to tell the TSA to grope children because there might be a terrorist in their underpants, is it reasonable?

    What is the probability of a child causing a plane to explode?

    What are the magic special words TSA agents use to create the right to grope people? How exactly do they describe it?

    Will Presiturd ‘Elect’ Trump ‘fix’ it by telling the TSA to only grope women?

    • I don’t think anyone agrees with how the TSA is doing things. Most of us believe in profiling. Frisking kids and old ladies is a waste of time and money, not to mention STUPID.

      However, as I said above. The airlines could have handled security and it could have been worse. Private companies are not bound by the Bill of Rights, period. I just don’t fly, problem solved.

      • “I don’t think anyone agrees with how the TSA is doing things.”

        Obviously, you can tell by the way they keep flying and stand there while strangers rub on them and their children, as well as they way they cheer and go out of their way to demand it continue.

        They even elect a man who espouses groping women. What better way to protest, eh?

        • Those folks are free to do it too. Imagine that, a free world where people can choose.

        • “Obviously, you can tell by the way they keep flying and stand there while strangers rub on them and their children, as well as they way they cheer and go out of their way to demand it continue.”

          You are quite correct….people keep flying. If it is so horrible….why even buy a plane ticket? Convenience. It is amazing what people will give up for mere convenience.

          I bet I am the only one on here that does not have a smart phone with internet service.

      • “However, as I said above. The airlines could have handled security and it could have been worse. Private companies are not bound by the Bill of Rights, period.”

        You have a point. Without the bill of rights to protect the right to be violated(ref; 4th amend.), the airlines would have to use the free market method, thus having to compete for the people’s service, therefore having to cater to their needs.

        How could the airlines possibly force their children to be rubbed on better than the TSA?

        ” I just don’t fly, problem solved. ”

        They still do it whether you fly or not. The stupid voters get together every few years to decide on a person to say magic special words and write on paper that their grandchildren will be spent as currency to finance the TSA who still has to rub on children who have a probability of exploding.

        Do your children fly?

        • My children are adults and choose to do as they wish. Once again, free choice.

          • Do they remember when people were less free and didn’t have the choice between being groped or not?

        • My grand children fly….and they just got back from the Cayman’s. I asked my daughter about clearing customs or TSA….no one was touched at any time. So, I am interested…has anybody on here been frisked in country?

          Out of country, there are no rules….but in country.

          • has anybody on here been frisked in country?

            I’ve asked many friends after picking up from airport. The biggest inconvenience was removing shoes. No mention of frisking. That was news in the past, even with videos. Give people a badge and some authority and it’s bound to be abused.

          • Never, including three round trips to Hawaii. But Google maps says I can drive from Detroit to the coast of California, then kayak myself to Hawaii. That will fix em.

          • If it doesn’t happen to you folks, I guess it never happens then.

            So how do they protect people from children with a probability of exploding?

  48. @Gmanfortruth

    Is it true that the ‘right to touch children’ is based on special words, ceremonies, and things written on paper? …and, of course, the reasonable probability they could randomly explode.

    • Here’s what I think airline security should be:

      • But the airlines would screw it up without government forcing it,remember, gmanfortruth?

        And how would that deter the children with a probability of exploding?

        Who would force the children to be touched, gmanfortruth?

        • I have been pretty clear that noone here agrees with what the TSA does. Beating the dead horse isn’t going to change that.

          To answer you question, if you don’t want your children touched, don’t freaking fly. It’s real simple. No one is forced to fly, it is by choice.

          • You confuse me gmanfortruth. First you posit that the airlines couldn’t touch children as well as the government, then posit that everyone should be armed so they won’t have to touch children looking for terrorism, but don’t address the children with a probability of exploding as per the legal contraints of the bill of rights.

            Exactly what is your position?

            You have a point about having a choice. If they don’t want their children touched, they shouldn’t fly.

            Hell, we ought to apply that logic to everything. Did you know there was once a rumor that terrorists plan to attack the food supply and roadways?

            So maybe they should get the FDA to join the TSA, place road blocks or gates on the roadways with random cavity searches to guard against exploding children. They can even place extra security at the grocery stores and family restaurants, malls, everywhere.

            That way everyone is still ‘free’. They can still choose. If people don’t want their children being touched, they should just stay home. Simple.

            • Your line of thinking is nonsense. The government don’t have the manpower to do such actions and never will. Let’s try being realistic.

              • I am simply extending your reasoning;

                God told dubya to tell lawmakers to tell the TSA to touch children who have a probability of exploding, …necessary because the airlines couldn’t touch them like government can, nor is it as effective as everyone having guns, thus the government who doesn’t have the resources is best suited for touching children.

                ??????

  49. Of course he knew.

  50. OOPS….what are they going to do now. The intelligence agencies have said NO to intel briefings. Wonder why?

    • Maybe because a month ago they (DNI) claimed there was no basis to claim that Russia had anything to do with hacking. Then the press (WaPo and NYT) run a claim that the intelligence agencies have proof of Russian hacking. A month ago the press probably thought the recounts would get somewhere. Recounts failed, so onto the next reason for Trump being elected.

  51. There is lots of news about Aleppo, Syria. Just a question: Is it the fault of the Obama Administration or is this a legitimate Civil War?

  52. Another question for all on here…….IS anyone surprised at the level of killing and the methods of extermination now going on in Syria. Going into bomber buildings and shooting survivors…..burning and skinning children alive,,,,,not allowing civilians to leave a war zone……

    Why is anyone surprised?

  53. @Colonel,

    How do you feel about the inalienable constitutional right to touch children who have a probability of exploding?

    • Children are no different than adults when it comes to security. I can speak of this from experience from Vietnam when children were used all the time and Americans were stupid enough to treat them differently…and boom.

      Here, in the United States, I can see no difference but that is the problem….I have not seen nor heard of children being frisked…much less women. Now, the full body scanners that apparently show body parts has been an issue….but not frisking.

      I do recall reading some directions on frisking on how to use the backof the hand to prevent groping…..but I have never seen it personally nor have I heard any complaints personally…just what I read.

      • I just realize that I did not answer your question…..inalienable right? Does someone charged with security have the “right” to frisk? If that is the accepted protocol…yes. I do not draw a difference between children, adults, women, or elderly.

        • Is there a proper way to do it? Yes……..but again…..I have not seen nor heard of it. Even my wheelchair bound parents were not ushered off to secret rooms and searched.

        • Dale A Albrecht says:

          Outside of the US our “inalienable” rights are moot. Do not expect them.

          • “Outside of the US our “inalienable” rights are moot. Do not expect them.”

            How does that work? …because I have traveled a bit, and I am rather confident that my DNA did not morph.

            • Dale A Albrecht says:

              The constitution is a piece of parchment as you stated earlier. Only valid here much to our shock and dismay and arrogence.

              I have not flown in this country for over 8 years. Convienience be damned, I drive. It also has to do with the level of service provided unless you fly business or 1st class. The rest is like Greyhound, no better than a cattle car….also I have little faith that the maintenance is being done as it should be. Companies in ever increasing number had trimmed and shaved and diminished their services so that we expect less to save money. Airlines can not be much better if not worse based on most of their financial problems.

              • Dale A Albrecht says:

                Wasn’t it Franklin that said “If you give up your rights for a bit of security, you deserve neither” I am dismayed that the American people so willingly without real complaint have turned over every bit of our rights regarding privacy and searching without warrant, imprisonment without charge….and the people who were incested were the legislators who put the laws in place only to find that the intelligence services bugged them also.

              • When talking about the TSA and what it does, one needs to look at what is happening and to whom. If the people that fly didn’t want the TSA security apparatus, it would have been done away with by now. It seems that those who fly have accepted the security measures, so they continue. WHY? Because they are not nearly as bad as some present them to be.

              • It must not be bad if everyone tolerates it?

                Maybe you have a point in that choice thing, and they should just use the other unregulated/forced nation-wide commercial air transportation system when they need to travel long distances in their tight busy schedules.

                That freedom thing and choice you speak of is great, eh?..;
                Don’t fly, use the other unforced commercial air system, or get over it when children who will probably explode are learning obedience and serfdom.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        At Amsterdam’s airport 2 days before 9/11 the security agents made NO distinction between sexes or whether you were an adult or child. In Milan’s airport after 9/11 the agents obviously were profiling and only one of the 1/2 dozen people they pulled from boarding the flight initially actually was allowed to board.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        Sir….I have seen the TSA agents go overboard with an elderly lady. The scan indicated a more thorough search was required. In full public view the did the hand wand scan, determined the beeping was in around the breast area. The guy grabbed a double handful and also then got a fist in his chops by the old lady. She obviously had an underwire bra to offest the affects of gravity in her advanced years.

        The agents in Raleigh one morning went so overboard with everyone, I said that they should have notified us to not dress in our business attire before and come in our pj’s. Get dressed later.

    • From today’s Air Force magazine

      US War Manual Clarifies Rules on Human Shields
      —WILSON BRISSETT
      A new version of the Defense Department’s Law of War Manual, released Wednesday, clarifies protections for civilians used as human shields on the battlefield. The document includes new language requiring that, in targeting enemy combatants, “feasible precautions must be taken to reduce the risk of harm to human shields.” These precautions apply to questions of proportionality, or “determining whether a planned attack would be excessive,” which can decide whether or not the US military conducts airstrikes in certain cases. While the manual states that, “the party that employs human shields in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack assumes responsibility for their injury,” it also cautions that, “the attacker may share this responsibility if it fails to take feasible precautions.” In recent battles for Mosul, Iraq, and Manbij, Syria, ISIS has employed human shields to protect its fighters from US airstrikes, and in some cases civilians have been involuntarily enlisted as human shields. According to the new rules, both voluntary and involuntary human shields “would not be considered to be directly participating in hostilities” and would be protected from attack, writes Jennifer O’Connor, General Counsel for the DOD, in a paper commenting on the new manual.

      I love the line, “involuntarily enlisted”. Speaks reams. So the deal is, let them blow you up first then have the follow up unit kill them.

      • In other words;

        The best way to defend a piece of parchment that gives the right to be violated by government is to use feasible precautions to reduce the risk of harm to nonviolent human shields while destroying whole civilizations in order to free them.

  54. Elisheba…..understand that I am not disputing things….I have never seen it nor personally talked to anyone…that does not mean it has not happened. I am quite sure that there are agents that have over stepped their authority.

    To answer your question about exploding children…..you put them through the exact same protocol that you do anything else…..age or gender is no factor.

    • I am rather enjoying your contribution to the conversation, Colonel. As far as I am concerned, you have carte blanche.

      I am simply trying to understand the values and principles of such a strange world.

      The US Constitution has a section that, as I have been told, protects inalienable rights by restricting government authority. One of those rights is the right to have your property stolen, your privacy invaded, and to be abducted or have no personal security. It limits government to having to have a reason relating to probability and say special words, as well as having to describe it on paper.

      So on the basis of protecting people from the probability of exploding children, and as per the right to have your personal self privacy and property violated, the TSA rubs children in search of explosives or terrorists that could be hiding in their pants.

      Do I understand correctly?

      • What you fail to understand is that the airlines are private companies who WANT the TSA to conduct these security operations. To fly on a privately owned airplane, you have to play by their rules. This is all part of the bailout after 911. I would guess that the airlines would have done the same, except at a higher cost to them, and those that fly. Unforunately, when dealing with private entities, Constitutional rights do not apply. Their property, their rules. It’s quite simple.

        • What you fail to understand is that the airlines are private companies who WANT the TSA to conduct these security operations. To fly on a privately owned airplane, you have to play by their rules. This is all part of the bailout after 911. I would guess that the airlines would have done the same, except at a higher cost to them, and those that fly. Unforunately, when dealing with private entities, Constitutional rights do not apply. Their property, their rules. It’s quite simple.

          So ‘private’ companies who merge with government to receive billions of FRN/Children from the people want the TSA to rub on children who do not have rights and will probably explode?

  55. Having travelled extensively to other countries where frisking is done on a routine basis….no one seems to care excpet Westerners. When you fly to Sounth America…..specifically, Colombia, Peru, Argentina, and Brazil. Everyone is frisked and it is not gender specific….ladies are frisked by men all the time. You better expect it. I warned my significant other who wanted to travel with me to Bogota’, Colombia……what to expect. After she was…ummm, frisked….her only comment was that she did not know his name. But it was expected and Western culture means no difference in most places.

    • The security at airports could be better and faster in the US…..profile, profile and profile. If someone wants to do evil, that person will usually find a way around the security apparatus.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        Wouldn’t you feel that the TSA is a generates a false sense of security. Have they actually ever nabbed anyone in the past 15 years? Without it, who knows? I just prefer to not fly anymore unless it’s abroad.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      Isn’t it something that the very same people that are decrying bullying on social media are doing the same thing with electors. Can’t they turn the same laws and regulations that are being installed to stop bullying by making it a crime against these harassing and threatening SOB’s

      Whether we like Trump or not, he will be far more innovative on his domestic and international policies than HRC ever dreamt of being. Trump is not against trade, he’s against UNFAIR trade deals. Even it up and let the best man win….I’ll pick our team anyday.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      If I’m not mistaken…..the US earlier this year or last year had bombed a hospital in Afghanistan. Had we not bombed groups of people later shown to be family party. had we not blown up a group of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan mistakenly id’d as enemy combatants.

  56. Colonel,

    “Children are no different than adults when it comes to security. I can speak of this from experience from Vietnam when children were used all the time and Americans were stupid enough to treat them differently…and boom.”

    You speak with experience in regard to reasonable probability, ..positing that because children in the Vietnam War on the other side of the planet decades ago sometimes exploded, that a typical 6 year old American child could be pretending to be on family vacation to see the ocean for the first time in the united states, and really be a trained assassin working for a terrorist organization, and therefore will probably explode?

    You are the expert.

    “Here, in the United States, I can see no difference..”

    So, much like the jungles of Vietnam decades ago, modern US airports sometimes experience exploding child terrorists?

    ” but that is the problem….I have not seen nor heard of children being frisked…much less women. Now, the full body scanners that apparently show body parts has been an issue….but not frisking.”

    If the threat is as probable as you suggest, then maybe they should treat everyone as probable terrorists and do a full body/cavity searches and scans as a default function? It could be any one of them. So to let any of them through to boarding without a thorough cavity search would be negligent, even dangerous, criminal?

    It is possible that a 3 year old child could have a bomb in their butt and a disgust for American freedom to choose not to fly. Is it worth the risk to let any of them go unchecked?

    “I do recall reading some directions on frisking on how to use the backof the hand to prevent groping…..but I have never seen it personally nor have I heard any complaints personally…just what I read.”

    So, as long the BACK of the hand is used to touch their parts in front of everyone, scare the hell out of them, and make them feel like a terrorist criminal, maybe everyone can take comfort that there is an ethical standard in place?

    What part of the hands are ethical when doing cavity searches on probable terrorist children who could have a bomb in their butt and a disgust for american freedom that are(like the jungles of Vietnam decades ago) typical of modern US airports and should be treated as adults?

    • “that a typical 6 year old American child could be pretending to be on family vacation to see the ocean for the first time in the united states, and really be a trained assassin working for a terrorist organization, and therefore will probably explode?”

      I did not say this nor did I imply this….I simply answered your question. If you are going to have any policy, no matter the policy…I am saying ALL are subject to whatever policy is in effect.

      ” So, much like the jungles of Vietnam decades ago, modern US airports sometimes experience exploding child terrorists? ”

      I did not say this nor have I implied this. Nor do I believe this. NOt in the USA….in other countries…sure.

      “..If the threat is as probable as you suggest..”

      I have suggested no probable threat at all.

      As far as frisking…..I do not like it. There is no part of the hand that is acceptable, back or front.

  57. Dale A Albrecht says:

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/09/swedes-houses-migrants-protest/

    This is a several month old news article about Sweden. The government is saying that that they are paying the migrants enough to RENT the empty houses. What about fixing them up or getting them out when the owner wants to us the house during the better climate months….my bet the owner just lost their home……anyway this is not what I wanted to get at….

    There was an unverifiable article on my homepage about the EU dictating that anyone who has a home greater than 60 sq meters is required to take in refugees….can someone verify this, I can not find anything but OLD stories.

    “Down and out in Beverly Hills” by force.

  58. Whether anybody out there is willing to admit it or not, we have entered the age of a NEW barbarism. Was watching news reports out of Iraq. The savages, barbarians, troglodytes have managed to erase any vestige of history from a place called “the cradle of civilization”. Even that ziggarut, the 140 foot tall one made from adobe which I studied in my ancient art classes was removed with bulldozers. Priceless statues and artifacts have been turned into aggregate.

    I’m thinking back to the 19th Century and the Mahdi and Dervishes. What we have going on now is very similar but a grossly enhanced version thanks to modern mass communication. Don’t particularly think Kitchener and “The River War” could have taken these guys.

    I do not think this will go away anytime soon or by any half-measures. This is going to be a full court press and will require the resolve of the people who ordered and carried out the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo of which we have very few.

    I am thinking whether they are 70 or 7 they will have to be killed. You have a bastardized culture which has a religious belief system we cannot compete with. The “intelligentsia” still mocks their 70 virgins but they don’t and we, in the west, have lost whatever faith we used to have. The Japanese also had a very strong, almost fanatical belief in their faith which placed life here, on earth secondary. It took the very real, plausible fear of annihilation of their entire society and culture to make them quit. Why, would anyone think it will take anything less here?

    So part of what will happen will require searches and those searches will only stop when the threat is removed.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      Remember at the beginning of the ISIS expansion. Them blowing up the tomb of an earlier prophet that is revered by Christians and Jews, but most Muslims because it was a part of their history. Remember the Taliban blowing up ancient buddist shrines and monumental statuary and grinding it up into aggragate so it could not ever be restored. The hatred of human history they seem to possess is immense…..I do not excuse our past but is was also what it was. When the Spaniards dismantled many of the Aztecs’ pyramids, I’m sure many of the indiginous cultures surrounding the aztec empire gladly helped tear down those edifices where many were sacrificed.

    • Just A Citizen says:

      SK

      Add to that the various attempts by the “socialist” order to destroy or re-write history in our own culture. To destroy artifacts of our own culture and history, preventing future generations from putting things in context or to understand why and how of things.

      When all these things are gone SAMENESS takes over. Little reason to think at all when everything is the same.

      • Dale A Albrecht says:

        “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.” – George S. Patton

        The shaming and ridicule that is heaped on those that go against the perceived “consensus” is so pervasive today. With today’s articles saying that Trump is not imaginitive is totally contrary to what we are actually seeing. The people that are unimaginitive are those that in opposition…that position doesn’t require thinking. Just pay your taxes, maybe and do what you’re told….it’s easier

        • Just A Citizen says:

          Dale

          Which begs the question, who are the real “conservatives”? Those who wish to overturn the current dogma and try to restore some sense of individualism or those trying to protect the socialist status quo of the past 100 plus years.

          • Dale A Albrecht says:

            It certainly isn’t the mainstream RNC. Trump is going to get hammered from both sides of the aisle, precisely because he is not establishment. Even the religious groups except for some individual issues like abortion are very socialistic in their nature, NOT individualistic.

            • Dale A Albrecht says:

              being an individual is treated like a pariah by most societies. If you are not a part then you must be apart. how’s that!

              • Just A Citizen says:

                Dale

                Not what I was chasing after, but not wrong in itself.

                Was simply pointing out that technically it is the Progressives who are the Conservatives. They are the ones who do not want things to change. Because they have had control for long enough that changing from their system would be truly a “progressive” change. Liberalism, true liberalism, is now held by those we place on the “right”. But it is not the norm. It is the change.

      • The older I get the more I see it as an attack on religion and ANY values system based on religion. We, the American experiment, are the culmination of something started by the Jesus guy. Take the “God” thing out and treat it as straight philosophy. It still is unique in the history of the world. But the Jesus guy riles people. They cannot even accept the the philosophical part of his teachings. The dumbshits are willing to risk everything to eliminate the last linkages of modern political philosophy to their Judeo-Christian roots. In the process, they weaken the whole basis/foundation for what the West stands for. Our opponents do no such thing. Someone who believes in something can always defeat someone who believes in nothing.

  59. Dale A Albrecht says:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/15/why-college-grads-cant-find-jobs-commentary.html?__source=yahoo%7Cfinance%7Cheadline%7Cheadline%7Cstory&par=yahoo&doc=104169083&yptr=yahoo&ref=yfp

    duh…..unfortunately when these kids do infact find a job that fits them and their skills, they will find very few. But they also will be shocked to find that NO PRIVATE business has any interest in your career and growth. Do the job you were hired for and don’t expect anything beyond that. Your career is 100% in your hands not theirs.

    My Father said this way back in the 80’s when business was fundamentally changing. Where it had been a major part of a managers job profile to work on your career aspirations, it doesn’t exist anymore except for a few preordained few.

    The only place I still see the teamwork of the individuals career and the “management” is in the military.

  60. Just A Citizen says:

    Would you sacrifice your sole that the rest of humanity could live in peace? How certain are you that humanity is capable, even if you remove the current threat?

    • Human nature guarantees frequent trips around the block to find something “different” and “better”. We are cursed with repeating our mistakes because somehow current asinine thinking is supposedly better, more modern and improved than asinine thinking of twenty years ago.

      Crime fell in the 1990’s because we realized that 90% of crime was committed by 10% of felons. We locked them up. The majority tended to be nonwhite. Now, we notice that our prisons are loaded with a disproportionate number of nonwhite folks. Community policing is being dropped all over because no one wants to remember to ask WHY we did what we did to begin with!

  61. @ Dale A Albrecht

    This could be a very good conversation, perhaps better than watching people argue in favor of choosing to have strangers rubbing on suspected terrorist double agent american children on vacation who will probably explode like they did in nam, ..and only because it speaks to the root of exactly how and why such a conversation even exists in the modern era.

    “The constitution is a piece of parchment as you stated earlier. Only valid here much to our shock and dismay and arrogence.”

    Please define the premise of it’s validity. What exactly makes it valid, and how does that apply to “here”? …And what exactly is “here”?

    I posit that it’s validity is premised on the belief in the value of organizing to have ceremonies and say magic special words, wear funny clothes, write orders on paper/parchment/medium, use magic stamps, special seals, animal characters, tapestry and ornaments, etc.

    …similar to religion or church.

    • Dale A Albrecht says:

      only valid here because it was here that the document was enacted. Like the press running around the world with their hair on fire about the “Freedom of the Press” It is not a right in most countries of the world, and also becoming a rarity in this nation also. We are seeing just how fragile the Constitution is and being so manipulated and interpreted by all parties to become a “living” document which by shifting and changing with very whim no matter how fleeting, it has virtually become meaningless and not worth the paper it’s written on. If it wasn’t so obvious that the political parties fight so hard for their judges on the courts, says that we are not being governed by the rule of law as set down in the constitution but by interpretation of what they think the law should have been, so obviously the framers were misquided. Human nature does not and has not changed. We may think it has because we have access to so much information, but are we making informed decisions that are better….I think not. I base this on having worked for 42 years in many industries. The more and faster the data came at you the worse the decisions the managers made. Usually they were based on short term events and knee jerk reactions.

      But like religion it is an article of faith. It will last only as long as you believe in it, trust in it and serves the purpose of it’s conception and ideals.

      • Belief, faith, ideas, values …

        That is about what we have defined as it’s premise. But what makes it legitimate? What validates it?

        Is legitimacy validated by individual choice, opinion, or idea? Does that validate every choice or idea from everyone or anyone?

        Can anyone write their ideas on parchment, have ceremonies and say magic words, wear funny clothes and have special seals and magic stamps and whatnot to make them legitimate? What difference does all the religious nonsense make?

        What are valid legitimate ideas?

        • Just A Citizen says:

          Validation = Acceptance by a majority.

          • So a majority validates a belief? Any other qualifiers?

            Is the minority therefore invalid?

            • Just A Citizen says:

              A belief can appear validated by a minority if the majority does nothing to invalidate it.

              Thus the Tyrant can create the illusion of validation as long as he/she can keep the majority mollified or unwilling to change.

              The minority is not invalid. But the minority belief system is invalid, unless it becomes the majority view.

              Don’t wander. We are discussing the validity of political systems, such as our Constitutional Republic. And the mechanism by which it was formed, in this case the Constitution itself.

              • “Don’t wander.”

                I’m not. I am presenting a line of questioning as to make a point. So let’s get to the point, shall we?

                You live your life according to what you value. The premise of your general focus and direction in life is sought as per all that you value, what you feel is worth your time spent.

                Any system of organization is going to be based on common values, that is to say that it is a collective of individuals who freely share the same values and organize accordingly, as to live in harmony.

                What gives it legitimacy is the inalienable right to choose, free will to decide what is valued in life. That doesn’t come from anything but reality, nature, god. It is a self evident truth. There is no need for validation or legitimacy of reality. It just simply is.

                The question of legitimacy or validity only becomes relevant when the element of force is added to the equation, as to ask what justifies the use of force. What is this justification for force premised on? …which goes back to values.

                The answer is that it isn’t valid or just or legitimate. It is simply violence, forceful imposition of values.

                That is what sets anarchism/libertarianism apart from government is that it allows free choice, doesn’t try to fight god and reality, recognizes self evident truth. It is based on a solid premise of reality truth and what is inalienable to human beings. It’s core values are infused with god’s reality. That’s why it works, and also why the validity and legitimacy is not a question.

                For all intents and purposes God is an anarchist.

              • Think of it like this, JAC..

                Anything based on a false faulty or incomplete premise will also be false faulty or incomplete.

                God said that reality says that nature says that your DNA says that you are a sovereign individual entity with free independent thought, Choice, a will that is entirely your own. Self determination/self ownership is reality. It is the core value, the premise in which Anarchy/Libertarianism/Classic Liberalism is based.

                Any system of organization that deviates from this premise is going to be in fault, as it is false or lacking, deviant from god and reality.

                Governmental systems deviate from this self evident reality with the use of force to impose edicts, and are therefore false faulty and lacking in every function it has. It’s principle function is in direct conflict with reality. That is why it is illegitimate, invalid.

                Government simply isn’t true.

                That is why I refer to it as paper and guns world. It is a prescribed false reality that has to be forced with weapons. Real reality says we get to choose our values and life. And it doesn’t need to be forced. It just simply is.

                It is because that’s what god says it is, …like with light and gravity,…cats and stuff, etc. Hence; God is an anarchist.

    • Elisheba (which by the way is a feminine name),

      The TSA groping issue is an old issue. It was all over the alternative media. The TSA have changed their methods because people like us all spoke out. Your a day late and a dollar short, so to speak. There have been no current issues concerning the TSA in well over a year. There were threats of protests in 2015, during the holiday travel season. There have been no issues being posted since. Your over a year late, but at least you care 😉

      “The constitution is a piece of parchment as you stated earlier. Only valid here much to our shock and dismay and arrogence.”

      Please define the premise of it’s validity. What exactly makes it valid, and how does that apply to “here”? …And what exactly is “here”?

      The people of the time chose to be governed and the Constitution outlined the government and it’s duties (and limitations). This is rather common, as in worldwide. Consent to be governed is the key. We are currently, and have been for several generations, in a crisis. It’s referred as the “Progressive” crisis. Maybe the “living document” crisis is more appropriate, but it is a threat to the nations stability. Forget the political parties, they are all for the most part, the problem, not the solution.

      Hence, we may soon see another civil war. People are stupid, fickle and self destructive. That will never change. Utopias are a pipe dream. However, living in the deep country has it’s advantages.

      • (It’s actually both. Keep researching)

        While I think it is terrible that we live in a world where you statists demand your fascist masters rub on your children on suspicion they may have box cutters or explosives in their pants, I was merely using that as one convenient example of absurdity to point out.

        The other day, we were discussing your new representative’s pro-sexual assault position, and I thought it was conveniently relevant, ..similar to Texas hiring people for hunting and sexually assaulting people for suspicion of stuffing plants into their digestive and reproductive organs.

        It is a very strange world, … Idiocracy meets Nineteen Eighty Four.

      • “The TSA groping issue is an old issue. It was all over the alternative media. The TSA have changed their methods because people like us all spoke out. Your a day late and a dollar short, so to speak.”

        Do you know what incrementalism is? …conditioning(ref; Pavlov’s Dog)

        Do you understand my above line of questioning about people who are too young to remember all the security measures in place in the last decade or two?

        How long before it is normal to ask govern-god permission to leave the yard it has assigned it’s grandchildren from you?

        Is it really necessary or reasonable to check children’s pants for terrorism?

        What exactly IS the probability that a 6 year old american girl on vacation with her family will explode because of her allegiance to a foreign terrorist organization?

        • gmanfortruth says:

          I know about everything you speak of. You are not bringing up anything new. What do you suggest? Armed revolt? Take a sign and protest a local airport. Send emails to the idiots elected to office? What is your solution? Bitching is old, solutions need to be achievable. What do you have to offer?

          • “What do you suggest?”

            Whatever it takes to break the cage.

            “What do you have to offer?”

            The same things we have repeatedly discussed to the point of nausea right here at SUFA for several years, a social order premised on inalienable rights and principles of liberty,

            …a.k.a. Anarchy, of course. ..ya know, “No Rulers”, as in self rule, personal responsibility, order without power, freedom, that sort of thing.

            • gmanfortruth says:

              Human beings are incapable of such a thing. History speaks volumes of this. We are stupid, fickle and self destructive.

              Now let’s try for something achievable. Your nirvana is a no go. Humans are simply incapable.

              • So if it were years from now after ISIS achieves their global caliphate, and it was your great granddaughter in a burka with her ‘unmarried with hyman intact symbol’ on the front, while competing with other ten year old girls to see who could find the best harem by reciting the Koran the best, would you say the religion of peace (that you compare with your ass) is simply a part of human nature, and like the rest of history another reason why to simply accept it as something realistic and achievable?

                What is the difference between one set of forced opinions and another?

              • gmanfortruth says:

                Religions should be practiced, not forced upon people. Just like political ideology, it should be left to the individual. If Anita thinks that Democracy is good, that’s her free choice. If JAC thinks that Socialism is good, that’s his choice. You prefer the “no government” form of ideology, that’s your free choice. Muslim’s try to force people to adhere to their ideology through fear and violence. Socialist’s do the same thing, just not at the Muslim’s level of violence. You try to shame people into believing your ideology. Fear and shame are just different forms of propaganda, but propaganda none the less. There is little difference in any of you (simply examples) and your belief systems. Maybe you can claim that yours has no violence, but your not nieve enough to think that it will stay that way, it’s just not human nature.

                Regardless, there really isn’t that much of a difference in people. Outside of ability and appearance, we are mostly the same. Stupid, fickle and violent.

              • What is the difference between one set of forced opinions and another?

                Nothing, they are forced. It doesn’t matter what is being forced. It is forced. Force is to be rejected as it is antithetical to rights and reality and free will.

                In order to stress that point, I use a comparable and disturbing example scenario that I know you reject.

                Forced doesn’t matter when it is advantageous to you. That’s just the way it is, get over it, move if you don’t like it, oh well, not my problem, can’t change it, give it up already, etc, etc.. But put your precious and beautiful little great granddaughter in a burka trying to sell her cherry to the highest bidder in reciting the Koran as a matter of legal forced caliphate culture comparable to your ass, and it is suddenly a major problem.

                The point is that forced opinions/values as edicts suck so bad they are completely and absolutely unacceptable as a way of life.

  62. @Gmanfortruth

    Re; The Problem.

    The problem is that social order of the whole of human civilization, from local to globally, is premised on the use of coercion and violence, death, destruction.

    Until that core fundamental principle element of force is corrected, the result will always be enslavement, violence, death and destruction.

    • gmanfortruth says:

      It can’t be corrected my friend. Human nature will never allow it to the level you desire.

  63. Dale A Albrecht says:
  64. Declaration of Independence, Paragraph 2

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..”

    That is basically the same point I made above and everywhere else.

    Operative word; consent <— CONSENT = INALIENABLE FREE WILL CHOICE

    Now, …I challenge any red blooded American born and raised person to travel around the united states peacefully avoiding or ignoring the law, as in without violating anyone. Choose to not consent to be governed in your homeland of your birth. You'll be homeless and/or dead within a few months, maybe a year.

    Your system of government has prohibited and/or criminalized being a human against it's own original intent.

    It is time to burn it and start over as it goes on to suggest;

    "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

  65. gmanfortruth says:

    There’s a new article/thread posted to continue the discussions.

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